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View Full Version : 1st Earl of Exeter (Thomas Cecil) Welsh or Norman descent and U106?



JohnHowellsTyrfro
04-01-2016, 08:36 PM
This may be one of my usual dumb DNA/ancestry questions but I was having a browse at FTDNA U106 data looking for people included under my Y Z326->FGC18842->S21728 and was surprised to see Thomas Cecil listed if I'm reading things correctly. I wondered how they could know, but I assume it is related to proven or claimed descent to modern individuals?

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiEwJzgnu7LAhUD1RoKHZFHDEAQFggcMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FThomas _Cecil%2C_1st_Earl_of_Exeter&usg=AFQjCNFWVWopQbubC7e4DxIBAyHbHzf8LA

Doing a bit more browsing I saw a claim (no more than that) that the Cecils could be descended from Seisyll ap Dyfnwal :-

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjn1Kq8mu7LAhUJVBQKHXvhCPMQFggcMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSeisyl l_ap_Dyfnwal&usg=AFQjCNF7OfzG-zwMPwhJVIXPGZUxYRgnyg

On the other hand Norman descent is another possibility it seems :-

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiV_c2-oe7LAhXH1RoKHeijAMAQFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fyba.llgc.org.uk%2Fen%2Fs-CECI-ALL-1450.html&usg=AFQjCNHVHUvMB9YzbEVsY4_RR6QPacVbrA

I suppose I'm just interested because of my family history around this Herefordshire/Monmouthshire border area. Any thoughts or information welcome.

Baltimore1937
04-02-2016, 03:50 AM
I've seen Exeter/ Earl of? somewhere in my vast maternal branch. But I don't know how to dig that up, except by going down several lines. In my case, it is likely Norman origins. No one with a surname of Cecil, though.

Daniel Boone's direct male line goes back to Exeter, Devon, England. Daniel Boone is my 1st cousin, 6 times removed. Quickly looking at a couple of trees at Ancestry, following it further back, Gregory Boon, 1517-1589, (and his wife) were born in Gwynedd, North Wales.

GoldenHind
04-02-2016, 06:36 PM
Many of the prominent families of the Tudor period were newly risen. Many of them, including the Cecils, sought to prove that they too, like the medieval nobility they were supplanting, were men of ancient lineage. The Tudor heralds were only too anxious to please these powerful men, and drew up pedigrees for them going back to the Norman Conquest, often supported by forged charters and other evidence. Historian and genealogist J, Horace Round, delighted in skewering them, though often his examination was rather cursory. I am reasonably certain that of the Cecils was among the those he ridiculed. If you have access to any of Round's works, you should be able to find what he wrote about the Cecil pedigree. I can't remember which of his many publications he discussed this, but it might be Family origins and Other Studies. If you seriously want to look for it, I could do some digging.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
04-02-2016, 08:39 PM
Many of the prominent families of the Tudor period were newly risen. Many of them, including the Cecils, sought to prove that they too, like the medieval nobility they were supplanting, were men of ancient lineage. The Tudor heralds were only too anxious to please these powerful men, and drew up pedigrees for them going back to the Norman Conquest, often supported by forged charters and other evidence. Historian and genealogist J, Horace Round, delighted in skewering them, though often his examination was rather cursory. I am reasonably certain that of the Cecils was among the those he ridiculed. If you have access to any of Round's works, you should be able to find what he wrote about the Cecil pedigree. I can't remember which of his many publications he discussed this, but it might be Family origins and Other Studies. If you seriously want to look for it, I could do some digging.

Please don't go to any trouble. It's difficult to get to the bottom of things. :) This link suggests the family had origins in South West Herefordshire with connections to Dore Abbey. "There is now no doubt that the family was from the Welsh Marches" - ( but I suppose that's just one opinion).
Just curious because Walterstone is fairly close to where my paternal ancestors came from, back to the 1660's, certainly within 15-20 miles. Just speculating. :)

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwih-bzJ3_DLAhXH1xQKHTR6AtwQFggqMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWillia m_Cecil%2C_1st_Baron_Burghley&usg=AFQjCNFWgib0Snd79qz4vwva8iEneUY88w

GoldenHind
04-02-2016, 10:36 PM
The usually reliable, though not infallible, Reaney and Wilson (A Dictionary of English Surnames, Oxford, 3rd Rev. Ed.), give the origin of Cecil/Saycell as the Old Welsh name Seisill, said to derive from Latin Caecilius. They report a Saisill listed as a landholder in Herefordshire in 1066 in Domesday Book.

You might find the following interesting. It was written by the late Sir Anthony Wagner, Garter King of Arms and an expert in English family history.

"Doubtless there was migration from Wales into England all through the Middle Ages, but the advent of a Welsh dynasty, the Tudors, to the English throne in 1485 accelerated the flow. The success of the Tudors,' says Dr. Rowse, 'was a triumph for the Welsh. They flocked to London, and some of them who came out of Wales changed the face of England.' David Cecil (d. 1536), Lord Burghley's grandfather, came from a family of petty gentry on the Welsh border to Stamford, where he was admitted freeman in 1494. It seems likely that he came out of Wales with Henry VII as a servant to a Welsh knight Sir David Philippe, who also settled at Stamford."

Finally I suggest caution with relying too much on claims of descent from famous people of the past. Some of them may well be accurate, but in my opinion such claims require close scrutiny.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
04-03-2016, 06:05 AM
"Finally I suggest caution with relying too much on claims of descent from famous people of the past. Some of them may well be accurate, but in my opinion such claims require close scrutiny."
Yes, very true. I wasn't really sure how well-documented the lineage in this case is and perhaps U106 is not what you might expect for someone of early Welsh origins. I was more curious really about Z326 being in this part of the World and historically how it may have got there. Thanks for the information.