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E_M81_I3A
04-06-2016, 06:23 AM
According to a new study about "Male Lineages in Brazil", E-M81 was found at a frequency of 3.1% in a large sample of 1217 unrelated males from the five Brazilian geopolitical regions.

Male Lineages in Brazil: Intercontinental Admixture and Stratification of the European Background (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0152573)

3.1% is lower than in Portugal (5-6%) but as Brazil is a huge country with more than 200 million people, it means that potentially more than 6 million Brazilians descend from E-M81 men, which is BIG (10 times more than in Portugal in absolute numbers).

http://img15.hostingpics.net/thumbs/mini_192530M81Brazil.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=192530M81Brazil.jpg)

Bane
04-06-2016, 09:03 AM
Maybe not all of Brazilian E-M81 is from Portugal:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Y_Hap_EM-81.PNG

Lugus
04-06-2016, 10:19 AM
According to a new study about "Male Lineages in Brazil", E-M81 was found at a frequency of 3.1% in a large sample of 1217 unrelated males from the five Brazilian geopolitical regions.

Male Lineages in Brazil: Intercontinental Admixture and Stratification of the European Background (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0152573)

3.1% is lower than in Portugal (5-6%) but as Brazil is a huge country with more than 200 million people, it means that potentially more than 6 million Brazilians descend from E-M81 men, which is BIG (10 times more than in Portugal in absolute numbers).

http://img15.hostingpics.net/thumbs/mini_192530M81Brazil.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=192530M81Brazil.jpg)

Everything in Brazil is bigger, not just E-M81. The land is 100x bigger than Portugal and the population 20x. That's a good example of what conquest and colonization (or invasion and subjugation if you want) can do to the YDNA lineages of the conquerors and colonizers. The MtDNA picture is another story. Portuguese women stayed at home, at least most of them and certainly in the first centuries when conditions were tough. Maybe this is what happened with the M269 invasion of Western Europe although it seems that some of them brought their wives.

RCO
04-06-2016, 01:30 PM
We need to know the Brazilian E-M81 full sequences. They arrived from Continental Portugal and from the Azores, probably some directly from the North African locations during the Portuguese occupation of some ports there. Of course the Brazilian population could grow extremely faster than any European population. I think even the Portuguese mtDNA is at least two times bigger in Brazil than in Portugal and the Portuguese Y-DNA is more than 10 times bigger here in Brazil.

E_M81_I3A
04-06-2016, 05:13 PM
Also percentage of E-M81 (3%) in Brazil is interesting because if we consider that the vast majority comes directly from Portugal, then it means that, given E-M81 frequency in Portugal at 5-6%, that about 50% of Brazilian paternal lineages are from Portugal.

Kurumim
07-09-2017, 02:21 AM
E-V13 here, representing.

Farroukh
07-10-2017, 09:12 AM
E-M81 frequency in Portugal at 5-6%
It seems they have Morisco (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morisco) ancestry

Squad
07-11-2017, 12:45 PM
It seems they have Morisco ancestry

A morisco origin for E-M81 in Iberia and Europe as whole is not likely as it was already confirmed that its distribution within Iberia does not mirror that of moorish occupation.

kingjohn
07-11-2017, 01:20 PM
in the table posted above by rz1706
we can see
e-m81 is highest in Brazil in south and southeast areas
i think it came with Portuguese colonization

Kurumim
07-11-2017, 04:26 PM
in the table posted above by rz1706
we can see
e-m81 is highest in Brazil in south and southeast areas
i think it came with Portuguese colonization

there was a lot of italians in these exact areas you mentioned, do italian carry M81?
also some recent Spanaish along with those italians ^

kingjohn
07-11-2017, 06:23 PM
there was a lot of italians in these exact areas you mentioned, do italian carry M81?
also some recent Spanaish along with those italians ^

e-m78 in this table is 7%-6% in south and southeast areas probably most of it is e-v13 like your clade
probably Italian migration as you mention
but about e-m81 most of chances that in Brazil Portuguese immigration as e-m81 is rare in Italy

Squad
07-12-2017, 04:30 AM
E-M81 averages 1% in Italy, so if italian migrants did somewhat contribute to the brazilian gene pool, then it would be one of the reasons for E-M81's lower frequency in Brazil compard to mainland Portugal. Brazil's E-M81 frequency is similar to that seen in the Azores and given the presence of the extremely rare J1-M365 in Brazil and the Azores but not in mainland Portugal, it is possible that a significant portion of the portuguese colonists were from the Azores. Just saying.

RCO
07-12-2017, 12:34 PM
We need more NGS Y-DNA in the Portuguese E-M81 to observe possible regional and local structures in Western Iberia. In the case of J1-M365 the distribution is very homogeneous from old Gallaecia - Galicia, Minho to the South and the Portuguese Seaborne Empire, you can find some topics showing that :) We can find J1-M365 in remote areas of Northern Portugal and they took part in the Portuguese Frontier.

Squad
07-12-2017, 09:49 PM
I don't recall a single J1-M365 case in mainland Portugal even though we've dealt with thousands samples. It is existent in Galicia but I've yet to see it in Portugal. The only cases known to me are azorean. If anything, it would be extremely rare in Portugal, with a frequency of less than 1 in 2000 and not the consistent 0.5% you claim. Apart from Galicia in Spain, I can confirm french, belgian and english cases ; definitely one of the rarest haplogroups in Europe.

RCO
07-13-2017, 01:18 AM
We have Professor Antonio Sousa Lara from the Ancient Portuguese Nobility with a conventional genealogy from Northern Portugal
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant%C3%B3nio_Sousa_Lara
He is YF04781 and I (Professor Ricardo Costa de Oliveira) am YF01554 here https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y19467/
The group of geneticists from Coimbra also found J1-M365 in Viana do Castelo, Northern Portugal.
I have found another one in this old article - Population and segregation data on 17 Y-STRs: results of a GEP-ISFG collaborative study (2008). Haplotype 389, one J1-M365 modal haplotype in 244 Northern Portuguese haplotypes = 0.4%

In our FTDNA J1-M365 project we have kit 82640 from Ourense, Galicia and kit 373835 Sousa Lara from Northern Portugal.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/m365/default.aspx?section=yresults
Now we need a Northern Iranian J1-M365 NGSequence.
We can continue this debate in a proper J1-M365 topic.

Farroukh
07-14-2017, 11:41 AM
A morisco origin for E-M81 in Iberia and Europe as whole is not likely
I see no ancient E-M81 subcldes among Iberians. Some years ago I had a theory about "Guanchee footnote", but now I reject it. E-PF2431 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-L19/) is more suitable for "Berbero-Guanchee" branch
http://i12.pixs.ru/thumbs/1/2/5/joshuaproj_2961297_26869125.jpg (http://pixs.ru/showimage/joshuaproj_2961297_26869125.png)

But TMRCA of all E-M81 carriers is 2300 years (https://yfull.com/tree/E-M81/). Therefore no chances to consider modern E-M81 people as ancient inhabitants of Pyrenees.

Squad
07-22-2017, 03:28 PM
Do you really it is that recent. Use your mind, it s impossible as we have no evidence of this much of an extreme founder effect in North Africa. It just doesnt make sense so there s definitely a problem over here with y-full estimates for this clade. Dont let yourself be fooled so easily, use your brain.

kingjohn
07-22-2017, 05:04 PM
We have Professor Antonio Sousa Lara from the Ancient Portuguese Nobility with a conventional genealogy from Northern Portugal
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant%C3%B3nio_Sousa_Lara
He is YF04781 and I (Professor Ricardo Costa de Oliveira) am YF01554 here https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y19467/
The group of geneticists from Coimbra also found J1-M365 in Viana do Castelo, Northern Portugal.
I have found another one in this old article - Population and segregation data on 17 Y-STRs: results of a GEP-ISFG collaborative study (2008). Haplotype 389, one J1-M365 modal haplotype in 244 Northern Portuguese haplotypes = 0.4%

In our FTDNA J1-M365 project we have kit 82640 from Ourense, Galicia and kit 373835 Sousa Lara from Northern Portugal.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/m365/default.aspx?section=yresults
Now we need a Northern Iranian J1-M365 NGSequence.
We can continue this debate in a proper J1-M365 topic.

small world is n't antonio sousa de lara belong to the same mtdna as me h3ap
i tallked with him when i found it very nice person :)
his direct maternal line could be sefhardic or non- jewish iberian

Kurumim
07-24-2017, 05:33 AM
E-M81 averages 1% in Italy, so if italian migrants did somewhat contribute to the brazilian gene pool, then it would be one of the reasons for E-M81's lower frequency in Brazil compard to mainland Portugal. Brazil's E-M81 frequency is similar to that seen in the Azores and given the presence of the extremely rare J1-M365 in Brazil and the Azores but not in mainland Portugal, it is possible that a significant portion of the portuguese colonists were from the Azores. Just saying.

yes, many brazilians descend from people from the azores, myself included.
but i cannot quantify their impact in Y chromosomes

Squad
07-27-2017, 08:24 PM
I see no ancient E-M81 subcldes among Iberians. Some years ago I had a theory about "Guanchee footnote", but now I reject it. E-PF2431 is more suitable for "Berbero-Guanchee" branch

But TMRCA of all E-M81 carriers is 2300 years. Therefore no chances to consider modern E-M81 people as ancient inhabitants of Pyrenees.

You didn't answer me. Do you really think E-M81 is some kind of unknown historical founder effect and that its diffusion into Europe is moorish ?

Humanist
07-28-2017, 07:58 PM
Please keep the discussion civil. Any further posts that are in violation of the ToS will be met with bans.

Farroukh
07-29-2017, 06:42 PM
E-M81 is some kind of unknown historical founder effect
Reason of E-M81 bottleneck 2300 years ago: Punic Wars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punic_Wars)

its diffusion into Europe is moorish ?
No. "Moor" is synonym of "Moslem". Some groups of E-M81 groups could migrate in Europe earlier than Moslem invasion.

palamede
08-02-2017, 10:36 PM
Reason of E-M81 bottleneck 2300 years ago: Punic Wars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punic_Wars)



Certainly not. There is no mention of castastrophic demographic losses of Moors (not yet moslem) and Numids by Greek and Roman historians. Punic wars didn't concern ancient Morroco and the Numid king (Algeria and West Tunisia) was among the winners of the second punic wars and his army was important and Carthage used ten of thousands of Berber mercenaries during the spanish conquest and the punic wars during the 3rd century BC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numidians

We can consider the TMRCA 2300BP of M81 absolutely false and if there is a bottleneck it was a lot oldest.

palamede
08-02-2017, 10:39 PM
Reason of E-M81 bottleneck 2300 years ago: Punic Wars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punic_Wars)



Certainly not. There is no mention of castastrophic demographic losses of Mauri and Numidians by Greek and Roman historians. Punic wars didn't concern ancient Morroco and the Numid king (Algeria and West Tunisia) was among the winners of the second punic wars and his army was important and Carthage used ten of thousands of Berber mercenaries during the spanish, sardian conquests by Carthage and the siciian and punic wars during the 3rd century BC and before.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numidians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauri_people

We can consider the TMRCA 2300BP of M81 absolutely false and if there is a bottleneck it was a lot oldest.

Farroukh
08-04-2017, 06:06 PM
This TMRCA based on SNPs gathered from African and European samples. All of them have a lot of same polymorphisms. It means recent common ancestry. Maybe, there are many uncovered haplotypes of Tuareg/Berber people with new old downstreams of E-M81. But real data shows bottleneck

dmana
08-04-2017, 08:50 PM
This has been discussed here before but the TMRCA of E-M81 correlates with the break-up of proto-Berber which happened somewhere around 2000 years ago . This explains the bottleneck that it has gone through better than the punic wars or anything else.

Btw, E-M81 have been found in Medieval Muslim graves in Nīmes in South of France, so I'm willing to bet that the Moors are the main source of E-M81 in Europe, much to the dismay of some members of this forum :biggrin1: . But regardless if European E-M81 owns most of its existence to Muslim expansions or not it seems undeniable that it originated with Berber speakers.

Claudio
08-12-2017, 09:12 PM
This has been discussed here before but the TMRCA of E-M81 correlates with the break-up of proto-Berber which happened somewhere around 2000 years ago . This explains the bottleneck that it has gone through better than the punic wars or anything else.

Btw, E-M81 have been found in Medieval Muslim graves in Nīmes in South of France, so I'm willing to bet that the Moors are the main source of E-M81 in Europe, much to the dismay of some members of this forum :biggrin1: . But regardless if European E-M81 owns most of its existence to Muslim expansions or not it seems undeniable that it originated with Berber speakers.

What exactly do you mean by the break up of proto Berber? Could you elaborate for a layman please?

Claudio
08-12-2017, 09:23 PM
E-M81 averages 1% in Italy, so if italian migrants did somewhat contribute to the brazilian gene pool, then it would be one of the reasons for E-M81's lower frequency in Brazil compard to mainland Portugal. Brazil's E-M81 frequency is similar to that seen in the Azores and given the presence of the extremely rare J1-M365 in Brazil and the Azores but not in mainland Portugal, it is possible that a significant portion of the portuguese colonists were from the Azores. Just saying.

My father was full Italian and I am E-M81
E-M183 according to 23andMe..
Am now in the process of doing Big Y at FTDNA to see if I may belong to an even more recent subclade..
I am a member of there project group but there is not much info on it's origin?
And elsewhere there does not seem to be an established founder date?
Anyone?

Claudio
08-12-2017, 09:26 PM
This TMRCA based on SNPs gathered from African and European samples. All of them have a lot of same polymorphisms. It means recent common ancestry. Maybe, there are many uncovered haplotypes of Tuareg/Berber people with new old downstreams of E-M81. But real data shows bottleneck

Where and when would you theorize this bottle neck occurred?

Farroukh
08-13-2017, 08:13 PM
Punic wars in Northern Africa

Claudio
08-14-2017, 12:48 AM
Punic wars in Northern Africa

Interesting.. the projects manager of E-M81 at FTDNA seems to think due to recently discovered Subclades in the last two years that the first founder affect is from the 814BC founding colonization of Carthage 🤔

Caius Agrippa
04-30-2020, 02:10 AM
Also percentage of E-M81 (3%) in Brazil is interesting because if we consider that the vast majority comes directly from Portugal, then it means that, given E-M81 frequency in Portugal at 5-6%, that about 50% of Brazilian paternal lineages are from Portugal.

I think that more than 50% of Brazilian paternal lineages are from Portugal, the approximate percentage would be something like 70%, maybe even more. Then around 20% from other Europeans or Middle Easterners, both recent and colonial, and 10% of African and Native Brazilian, with African yDNA being more common than Native Brazilian. That's a striking difference when compared to Brazilian mtDNA that is around 60% African + Native Brazilian, in that case with Native being more common than African, and 40% European or West Eurasian, though some L lineages in some Brazilians may have arrived in Brazil with the Portuguese rather than with enslaved Africans.