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Tomenable
04-08-2016, 01:55 PM
What are frequencies of various Y-DNA haplogroups and subclades among Finno-Ugric speaking populations (such as Mordvins, Udmurts, Maris, Komis, Karelians, Khanty, Mansi, Vepsians, Izhorians, Votes, Hungarians, etc.) as well as among Turkic-speaking ethnic groups?

Afshar
04-08-2016, 05:51 PM
Www.khazaria.com has that information but its not summarized. Its a lot you are asking for :)

Tomenable
04-08-2016, 06:33 PM
Khazaria has info about Turkic ethnic groups (e.g. Bashkirs), but I haven't found much about Finno-Ugric peoples there.

Are there any major published studies concerning Finno-Ugric and / or Turkic Y-DNA haplogroups? :noidea:

Megalophias
04-08-2016, 08:03 PM
Khazaria has info about Turkic ethnic groups (e.g. Bashkirs), but I haven't found much about Finno-Ugric peoples there.

Are there any major published studies concerning Finno-Ugric and / or Turkic Y-DNA haplogroups? :noidea:
There's lots of that cover smaller groups or areas but not covering those families in general that I know of.

Balaresque et al (2015) - "Y-chromosome descent clusters and male differential reproductive success: young lineage expansions dominate Asian pastoral nomadic populations" - Central Asian Turkic people.
Cinnioglu et al (2004), "Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia" - Anatolian Turks.
Di Cristofaro et al (2013), "Afghan Hindu Kush - where Eurasian sub-continent gene flows converge" - has some Kygryz, Turkmen, and Uzbeks.
Derenko et al (2006), "Contrasting patterns of Y-chromosome variation in South Siberian populations from Baikal and Altai-Sayan regions" - Altaians.
Dulik et al (2012), "Y-Chromosome Variation in Altaian Kazakhs Reveals a Common Paternal Gene Pool for Kazakhs and the Influence of Mongolian Expansions"
Dulik et al (2012), "Mitochondrial DNA and Y Chromosome Variation Provides Evidence for a Recent Common Ancestry between Native Americans and Indigenous Altaians"
Fedorova et al (2013), "Autosomal and uniparental portraits of the native populations of Sakha (Yakutia): implications for the peopling of Northeast Eurasia" - lots of Yakuts
Karafet et al (1999), "Ancestral Asian Source(s) of New World Y-Chromosome Founder Haplotypes" - lots of Siberians but extremely old.
Karmin et al (2015), "A recent bottleneck of Y chromosome diversity coincides with a global change in culture" - selected samples so no good for population frequencies, but has a variety of Uralics and some Turkics.
Mirabal et al (2009), "Y chromosome distribution within the geo-linguistic landscape of northwestern Russia" - includes Komis and Khantys.
Pimenoff et al (2008), "Northwest Siberian Khanty and Mansi in the junction of West and East Eurasian gene pools as revealed by uniparental markers"
Shou et al (2010), "Y-chromosome distributions among populations in Northwest China identify significant contributions from Central Asian pastoralists and lesser influence of western Eurasians" - includes some Turkic peoples.
Tambets et al (2004), "The western and eastern roots of the Saami" - all kinds of Siberians - Maris, Mordvins, Udmurts, Selkups, etc. And Saami of course.
Yunusbayev et al (2011), "The Caucasus as an asymmetric semipermeable barrier to ancient human migrations" - includes Nogays and other Turkic Caucasians.

In a nutshell Uralic speakers tend to look like their neighbours but with a lot more N. Turkic speakers are all over the place.

Tomenable
05-15-2016, 10:49 AM
I've found this about Turkic Y-DNA haplogroups:


* C haplogroup

- C haplogroup distribution

. Kazakhs - %36
. Karakalpaks - %22.7
. Kyrgyz - %8.9
. Khakas - %5.7
. Uyghur - %4.3
. Anatolian Turks - %1

* N haplogroup

- N haplogroup distribution

. Uralic Nenets - %97.3
. Indigenous Khanty people - %76.6
. Finns - %61.5
. Lithuanians - %42
. Eskimo origined Yup'ik people - %50.6

. Kazan Tatars - %28.3
. Chuvash People - %27.9
. North Altaians - %10
. Kazakh - %8
. Uzbeks - %3.9
. Anatolian Turks - %4
. Azerbaijani (Iran) - %2

* Q haplogroup

- Q haplogroup distribution

. Tungusic people - %4.2
. Uralic Selkup people - %66.4
. Ket people of Siberia - %93.7

. Uzbeks - %9.5
. Uyghur - %3
. Kyrgyz - %2.2
. Kazakh - %2
. Anatolian Turks - %2
. Azerbaijani (Iran) - %5

* C + N + Q distribution

. Kyrgyz - %11.1
. Uyghur - %7.3
. Uzbek - %13.4
. Kazakh - %10 (%36 of C haplogroup excluded)
. Anatolian Turks - %7
. Azerbaijani (Iran) - %7

* J haplogroup (J1 & J2)

- J1 distribution

. Azerbaijani - %15.2
. Uzbeks - %2.3
. Chuvash - %2.3
. Tuymazinsky Tatars - %2
. Kazakh - %2
. Gagauz - %1
. Anatolian Turks - %9
. Azerbaijani (Iran) - %5

- J2 distribution

. Uyghur - %34
. Uzbek (east Turkistan) - %30.4
. Azerbaijani - %30.6
. Crimean Karaites - %30
. Hazara - %26.6
. Kumyks - %25
. Balkars - %24
. Lithuanian Tatars - %18.9
. Turkmen - %17
. Uzbeks (Afghanistan) - %16
. Kazan Tatars - %15.1
. Chuvash - %14
. Nogay - %10
. Kazakh - %7
. Anatolian Turks - %24
. Azerbaijani (Iran) - %22

* R haplogroup

- R1a distribution

. Kyrgyz - 63.5%
. Uzbek - %27
. Kazan Tatars - %20
. Gagauz - %19
. Kazakh - %15
. Turkmen - %7
. Anatolian Turks - %7
. Azerbaijani (Iran) - %19

- R1b distribution

. Bashkirs - %43
. Tuymazinsky Tatars - %16
. Gagauz - %12.5
. Uzbek - %11.1
. Kazakh - %7
. Anatolian Turks - %16
. Azerbaijani (Iran) - %17

R2 haplogroup:

R2 is found at a higher ratio in East Asia but it is still present among Turk populations of Central Asia (Uzbek - %3.1)

* References

- KZ DNA Project / FTDNA
- Shou et al. / 2010 [Y-Chromosome distributions among populations in Northwest China identyfiy significant contribution from Central Asian pastoralists and lesser influence of western Eurasians]
- Wells, Spencer et al / 2001 [The Eurasian Heartland: A continental perspective on Y-chromosome diversity]
- Miroslava Derenko et al 2005 [Contrasting patterns of Y-chromosome variation in South Siberian populations from Baikal and Altai-Sayan regions]
- Xue, Yali et al / 2006 [Male demography in East Asia: a north-south contrast in human population expansion times]
- Trofimov / 03.02.07 / P.111 / Institute of Biochemistry & Genetics, Russia [the variability of mitochondrial DNA and Y-DNA in populations of Volga-Ural region]
- Khar'kov, VN / Stepanov, VA / Medvedeva, OF / Spiridonova, MG / Voevoda, MI / Tadinova, VN / Puzyrev, VP / 2007 [Gene pool differences between Northern and Southern Altaians inferred from the data on Y-chromosomal haplogroups] Genetika 43-5: 675-87
- Julie Di Cristifaro [Afghan Hindu Kush: Where Eurasian Sub-Continent Gene Flows Converge]
- Michael F Hammer et al / 2005 [Dual origins of the Japanese: common ground for hunter-gatherer and farmer Y chromosomes] Journal of Human Genetics 2006-51, 47-58
- Tambets, Kristiina et al / 2004 [The Western and Eastern Roots of the Saami -- the Story of Genetic "Outliers" Told by Mitochondrial DNA and Y Chromosomes]
- Di Giacomo, F. / Luca, F. / Popa, L. O. / Akar, N. / Anagnou, N. / Banyko, J. / Brdicka, R. / Barbujani, G. et al. /2004 [Y chromosomal haplogroup J as a signature of the post-neolithic colonization of Europe] Human Genetics 115-5: 357-371
- Eupedia [Distribution of European Y-chromosome DNA/Y-DNA haplogroups by country in percentage]
- Nasidze et al. / 2004 [Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Variation in the Caucasus]
- Brook, Kevin A. / 2014 [The Genetics of Crimean Karaites] Karadeniz Araştırmaları / N: 42, p.69-84
- PLoS One. / 2012 / 7-3 [Afghanistan's Ethnic Groups Share a Y-Chromosomal Heritage Structured by Historical Events]
- Yunusbayev, Bayazit et al / 2006 [Genetic Structure of Dagestan Populations: A Study of 11 Alu Insertion Polymorphisms]
- Battaglia, Vincenza / Fornarino, Simona / Al-Zahery, Nadia / Olivieri, Anna / Pala, Maria / Myres, Natalie M / King, Roy J / Rootsi, Siiri et al. / 2008 [Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of agriculture in southeast Europe] European Journal of Human Genetics / 17-6: 820-30
- Lithuanian Tatars Nobility Project / FTDNA
- Wells RS / Yuldasheva N / Ruzibakiev R / Underhill PA / Evseeva I et al. / 2001 [The Eurasian heartland: a continental perspective on Y-chromosome diversity]

Tomenable
05-15-2016, 10:51 AM
I can also add info about Xiongnu Y-DNA (they weren't all Turkic, but related):

(most but not all of the samples are from Egyin Gol Valley - abbreviation EG):

1) Paternal lineages:

1a) East Asian haplogroups (22 samples - ca. 82% of the total):

Sample: Y-DNA

EG27: C2e-Z1338
EG46: C2-M217
EG47: C2-M217
EG50: C2-M217
EG52: C2-M217
EG53: C2-M217
EG54: C2-M217
EG57: C2e-Z1338
EG58: C2e-Z1338
EG70: C-M130
MNX2: C2-M217

EG88: Q1a2-M346
EG92: Q1a2-M346
EG94: Q1a2-M346
EG112: Q-M242 (maybe Q1b?)
Barköl1: Q1a3a-M3
Barköl2: Q1a3a-M3
Barköl3: Q1a3a-M3

EG25A: N1c
EG84.1: N1c
EG19: N1c1-Tat

EG95: O3a2

1b) West Eurasian haplogroups (5 samples - ca. 18% of the total):

Sample: Y-DNA

EG69: R1b

EG84bis: I2c1

MNX3: R1a1a
EG72: R1a
EG73: R1a

=========================

2) Maternal lineages:

2a) East Asian haplogroups (43 samples - ca. 83% of the total):

Sample: mtDNA

EG46: D4 (Y-DNA: C2-M217)
EG52: D4 (Y-DNA: C2-M217)
EG54: D4 (Y-DNA: C2-M217)
EG57: D4 (Y-DNA: C2e-Z1338)
EG70: D4 (Y-DNA: C-M130)
EG72: D4 (Y-DNA: R1a)
EG84bis: D4o1 (Y-DNA: I2c1)
EG73: D4 (Y-DNA: R1a)
EG88: D4 (Y-DNA: Q1a2-M346)
EG94: D4 (Y-DNA: Q1a2-M346)
MNX2: D4 (Y-DNA: C2-M217)
EG73: D4
EG74: D4
EG28: D4
EG48: D4
EG32A: D4
EG65: D4
EG77: D4
EG41: D4
EG61: D4
EG63: D4o1
EG35: D4o1
EG36: D4o1
EG37A: D4o1
EG93: D4o1
EG91: D4o1
EG83b: D4o1
EG68: D4o1

EG53: D5/D5a (Y-DNA: C2-M217)
EG69: D5/D5a (Y-DNA: R1b)

EG47: C5 (Y-DNA: C2-M217)
EG50: C (Y-DNA: C2-M217)
EG39: C4a1
EG66: C
EG56: C
EG49: C

EG58: F1b (Y-DNA: C2e-Z1338)
EG59: F1b
EG82: F1b
EG83: F1b

EG25A: G2a (Y-DNA: N1c)
Birlik2: G2

EG84.1: B4b (Y-DNA: N1c)

2b) Uncertain origin, depends on subclade (2 samples - ca. 3%):

Sample: mtDNA

EG92: M (Y-DNA: Q1a2-M346)
EG90: M

2c) West Eurasian haplogroups (7 samples - ca. 14% of the total):

Sample: mtDNA

EG76: U5a1a
EG78: U5a1a

MNX3: U2e1 (Y-DNA: R1a1a)
EG95: U2 (Y-DNA: O3a2)

EG27: J1 (Y-DNA: C2e-Z1338)
EG18A: J1

Birlik1: H

Tomenable
05-15-2016, 11:16 AM
More about Bashkir Y-DNA:

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/bashkirs.html

"A total of 471 Bashkir men were tested for their Y-DNA (paternal) haplogroups. Of these, when the samples are taken as a whole without regard to geographic region, the most common Y-DNA haplogroup among the Bashkirs was R1b, within which 34.4% belonged to R1b1b2 (later renamed R1b1a2; also known as R-M269) and 13.2% to R1b1b1. R1a1 (R-SRY10831.2) was found among 26.3%, and 17% had N1c (N1c-Tat). Less common were haplogroups like E-M35, C-M48, G-P15, L-M20, N-P43, O-M175, and several more. There were some regional divides. Bashkirs from the Perm and Baimakskiy regions have noticeably higher percentages of R1b1b2 compared to the other regions (83.7% in Perm, but much less often in places like Abzelilovsky and Burzyansky and zero percent in Sterlibashevsky), while they have less R1a1 compared to the other regions (only 9.3% in Perm compared to 48.0% in Saratov and Samara in the Samarskaya Oblast)."

Megalophias
05-15-2016, 07:25 PM
Yakuts from Sahka Republic - 83% N1c, 6% C2, 5% R1a, no Q, no J.
North Altaians - 37% Q1a2, 25% N, 23% R1a, 9% R1b, no C, no J.
South Altaians -50% R1a, 20% C2, 17% Q1a, 4% N, 3% J2a, no R1b.
Afghanistan Turkmen - 31% Q1a1b1-M25, 16% R1a, 9% J1, 8% J2, 7% N1c2b, 3% Q1a2, 3% R1b (M73+L23), 1% C2b-M401, no N1c.
Iranian Turkmen - 43% Q1a1b1-M25, 15% R1a, 9% J2, 6% J1, 4% R1b, 3% N, no C.
Xinjiang Kazakhs - 59% C, 10% N, 5% R1a, no Q.

G1 (mainly from Balanovsky et al "Deep phylogenetic analysis of haplogroup G1 provides estimates of SNP and STR mutation rates on the human Y-chromosome and reveals migrations of Iranic speakers"):
Kazakhs - 26% in Balanosky's sample of 10 groups, frequency up to 87%
Baskhirs - 8%, up to 12%
Anatolian Turks, Crimean Tatars, North Caucasian Turks, Tajkistan Kirghiz - 1% or less. None among 339 Central Asian Uzbeks, Kyrgyz, and Turkmen from di Cristofaro. None among 189 Uyghurs.

Gravetto-Danubian
09-18-2016, 03:29 PM
Must have missed this thread. Yes it's interesting what pattern can be made, maybe with help of visual PCA from the refs posted above, and ancient DNA (I've included CWC, Srubnaya, Yamnaya, the Xiongnu, & the Bronze Age Altai recently featured).
It's intentionally skewed to look at north Eurasia, so it'll look odd for parts of Europe, & the Near East/ West Asia/ Mediterranean are squashed together. Another odd thing is that Yamnaya plots with some Balkan & NE groups because of the Z2103, so it doesn't mean much for IE groups .

11717

The centrality of N in Finno-Uralic is rather clear, and it was probably introduced into the East Baltic via Finland.

As already obvious, Turkic is more difficult, but I believe its apparent discordant expansion can be explained through DNA and their organization of their alliance & lineage systems.
For example, the idea of an Areal zone between Turkic, Tungusic & Mongolic seems to get genetic support. Mongols, Kets and a couple of Turkics show similarity to preceding Xiongnu & Bronze Age Altaic.
Turkic becomes adapted by certain central Asian Z93 groups, essentially Turkicized Tajiks & Pashtuns, a rather homogenous F.E.
On the other hand Chuvash appear like Turkic speaking Balto-Finns. Most interesting, is that Bashkirs look Balkan, more diverse, & with little genetic "Altaic" imprint.
Different still are Turks of Anatolia & Azeris. Are the Bashkirs a proxy for the interconnection ?

A 3D view.
11719

Shaikorth
09-18-2016, 04:07 PM
There is enough Z93 in some South Siberian Turkics far away from Tajikistan and even the Tarim basin (Shors, Teleuts and some more eastern groups) that it could have been present in the original Turkic expansion (2k years ago, or was it even more recent?) even if originally brought there by Andronovo.

With N a high resolution of subclades should show some Turkic-linked groups. Same should be the case with Uralic, whose expansion was roughly 4000 years ago. Higher-resolution subclade spread among various populations is below:
http://www.cell.com/cms/attachment/2063048882/2065484218/mmc2.xlsx

The splits of N were dated roughly as follows by Ilumäe et al: N1'2'3 18k bp N3 13k bp, N3a'b 12k bp, N3a 8k bp N3a2'6 7k bp, N3a3'6 5k bp.

Gravetto-Danubian
09-18-2016, 11:15 PM
There is enough Z93 in some South Siberian Turkics far away from Tajikistan and even the Tarim basin (Shors, Teleuts and some more eastern groups) that it could have been present in the original Turkic expansion (2k years ago, or was it even more recent?) even if originally brought there by Andronovo.

With N a high resolution of subclades should show some Turkic-linked groups. Same should be the case with Uralic, whose expansion was roughly 4000 years ago. Higher-resolution subclade spread among various populations is below:
http://www.cell.com/cms/attachment/2063048882/2065484218/mmc2.xlsx

The splits of N were dated roughly as follows by Ilumäe et al: N1'2'3 18k bp N3 13k bp, N3a'b 12k bp, N3a 8k bp N3a2'6 7k bp, N3a3'6 5k bp.

Yes, I wasn't sure if splitting N was really needed, overall for splitting Uralics from Turkcis & Mongols, although it might help differentiated within Uralic (?)

Shaikorth
09-18-2016, 11:26 PM
Yes, I wasn't sure if splitting N was really needed, overall for splitting Uralics from Turkcis & Mongols, although it might help differentiated within Uralic (?)

Indeed, the simplest way to do that split is to just check who has Z93. Splitting N does help also if you want more detail, there are subclades that obviously correlate with the supposed urheimats of all these language groups, and the clades' separation times are older than the language expansions so this distribution shouldn't be too recent.

Ral
12-27-2016, 10:35 PM
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311805917_The_Tatars_of_Eurasia_peculiarity_of_Cri mean_Volga_and_Siberian_Tatar_gene_pools

BMK
12-27-2016, 10:44 PM
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311805917_The_Tatars_of_Eurasia_peculiarity_of_Cri mean_Volga_and_Siberian_Tatar_gene_pools
Pretty interesting.

Kanenas
12-28-2016, 12:22 AM
Just like 'J1s' spread both Semetic and Caucasian languages, the same can be true about 'R1a's, 'R1b's and 'J2a's etc
There were people in the past who tried to associate proto-Turkic with just 'haplogroup C' which is definitely wrong.
And concerning the homeland they tried to place it as far away as possible.

Supposedly, Chuvash, and the unattested Khazar and Bulgar split before the stage of Common Turkic, so I don't believe traditional views are correct (although I am aware that if there's will, there's always a way to support anything).

Tomenable
03-25-2017, 09:04 PM
A lot of info about Ugro-Finns (in Polish, but you can use Google translate):

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/statystyki-krajow-regionow-populacji/europa/ugrofinowie-antropologia-fizyczna

There is also a PCA graph of Ugro-Finnic populations based on MDLP K23b:

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/statystyki/Europa/Ugrofinowie/k23b.jpg

Google Translation ("Positive peoples" instead of "Ugro-Finnic peoples"... :biggrin1:):

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fantropologia-fizyczna.pl%2Fstatystyki-krajow-regionow-populacji%2Feuropa%2Fugrofinowie-antropologia-fizyczna