PDA

View Full Version : Armenian ancestry in Poland



Tomenable
04-09-2016, 10:17 PM
Armenians were, next to Jews, another numerous minority of "Oriental" origin in the Old Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

They were much more prone to assimilation than Jews, so I suppose that many Poles today carry some Armenian ancestry (I even know some who do, I will list them below). Throughout history, there were at least four major waves of Armenian immigration to Poland:

The first influx started in years 1045-1062 (after the conquest of Armenia by Seljuq Turks) and continued also after the 11th century at a slower pace (they were coming via Crimea, Bessarabia and Don River region) - those first immigrants settled mostly in Halychna and Podolia, areas which became parts of Poland in the 14th century. By 1630 Armenians fully integrated with Polish Catholic culture, which made assimilation and intermarriage much easier than in case of Polish Jews. Armenians who were descended from the first wave of immigrants became Polonized and melted into Polish people during the 17th century. The 2nd wave of Armenian migrants came in the 18th century from Moldavia and Wallachia - those became Polonized by the 1800s. The third wave came as refugees after the Armenian Genocide. It wasn't very numerous (several thousand people). Armenians from the third wave became acculturated and integrated during the 20th century (since nobody exterminated them, as it happened to Jews). After the end of WW2, 99% of Armenians in what used to be Eastern Poland moved westward, and only 1% stayed in the Soviet Union. Despite Polonization, many Armenians managed to preserve their traditions, customs and memory about ancestors.

Finally, the last, most recent wave of Armenian immigrants came to Poland after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

There have been a lot of Poles - including many prominent people (see the list below) - of at least partial Armenian descent:

Juliusz Słowacki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juliusz_Słowacki) (up to 1/4 Armenian - via maternal grandmother)
Zbigniew Herbert (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbigniew_Herbert) (up to 1/4 Armenian - via maternal grandmother)
Krzysztof Penderecki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krzysztof_Penderecki) (up to 1/4 Armenian - via paternal grandmother)
Jerzy Kawalerowicz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Kawalerowicz) (some paternal ancestry from Armenian Kavalarian family)
Robert Makłowicz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadeusz_Isakowicz-Zaleski) (up to 1/8 Armenian - via one great-grandmother)
Tadeusz Isakowicz-Zaleski (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadeusz_Isakowicz-Zaleski) (1/2 Armenian via mother)
Maja Bohosiewicz (http://www.eastnews.pl/en/groups/index/id/58346/section/stock/phrase/maja%20gajkowska) (some paternal ancestry from Armenian Poghosyan family)
Sonia Bohosiewicz (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1338476/) (sister of Maja Bohosiewicz)

And yet some more people, in case of whom I haven't found info on how much of Armenian ancestry do (or did) they have:

Teodor Axentowicz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teodor_Axentowicz) (painter)
Ignacy Łukasiewicz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignacy_Łukasiewicz) (inventor, petroleum industry pioneer)
Karol Mikuli (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karol_Mikuli) (musician)
Anna Dymna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Dymna) (actress, philanthropist)
Szymon Szymonowic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szymon_Szymonowic) (poet)
Jakub Paschalis-Jakubowicz (enterpreneur)
Ignacy Nikorowicz (writer)
Ewa Stolzman-Kotlarczyk (actress)
Izaak Mikołaj Isakowicz (philanthropist, patriotic activist)
Leszek Józef Serafinowicz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Lechoń) (poet & diplomat)
Łukasz Abgarowicz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Łukasz_Abgarowicz) (politician)
Wojciech Mojzesowicz (politician)
Vahan Gevorgyan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vahan_Gevorgyan) (Armenian-born footballer)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON-MJw-7xtI

Tomenable
04-09-2016, 10:24 PM
This painting from 1655 - "Lamentation of various people over the dead credit" - shows Poles of various professions, as well as minority groups, "Żyd" - a Jew, and "Ormianin" - an Armenian - standing in the middle, between a merchant at his right and a musician at his left:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Lamentation_over_the_dead_credit.jpg

Asimakidis
04-10-2016, 07:51 AM
I have actually heard a friend of mine claim Armenian roots (through paper-trail). It would be interesting to have them take a dna test, because they said it was on their male side etc.

AJL
04-10-2016, 05:53 PM
This painting from 1655 - "Lamentation of various people over the dead credit" - shows Poles of various professions, as well as minority groups, "Żyd" - a Jew, and "Ormianin" - an Armenian - standing in the middle, between a merchant at his right and a musician at his left:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Lamentation_over_the_dead_credit.jpg

It's funny how, without knowing Polish, I know what half of those occupations are because they're also fairly common occupational surnames (tailor, pharmacist, etc.).

loisrp
04-26-2016, 08:35 AM
I scored 3% Central Asia on FTDNA, I had a surprising and apparently Armenian match on FTDNA, and I've noticed a few such matches on GEDMatch. What are the indicators of having Armenian ancestry on the various calculators (I don't recall ever seeing Armenian as one of the secondary options, so maybe the matching is for some other reason?).

psaglav
04-26-2016, 08:58 AM
That's interesting, the subclade of my father's mtdna is not well known or researched but most information I had found on it said "found in Armenia and Poland." He's X2e1a. I don't know if it'd make sense historically -since mtdna goes way back- but there it is.

psaglav
04-26-2016, 09:00 AM
Another thing is, his closest Y-dna matches are Armenians (granted, not *that* close) but so far no visibly (by name or listed in ancestry) Armenian match in FF matches. He does have Polish matches though.

Alanson
04-26-2016, 06:13 PM
I have noticed some Poles tend to have something West Asian about them, darker hair, and the eyes which remind me of Anatolia/Caucasus. I think the reason they assimilated better than the Jews, because of their Christian religion, and nor they saw themselves as distinct community, like the Jews who did.

Anath
04-28-2016, 09:13 AM
I have Litvak jewish ancestry from my grandpa's dad and some native Polish via his mostly otherwise German mother so maybe i have some distant Armenian too.. that would be interesting even it was small :P

Cinnamon orange
04-28-2016, 07:53 PM
I think there is ancient Sarmatian and Scythian ancestry in the region, which can give a West Asia pull. More so in the southeast of Poland.

Schanulleke
08-26-2016, 01:25 PM
Armenians were tradesmen weren't they? I know from some books I have that Armenian tradesmen lived in Flanders and Holland at the middle ages...

Tomenable
09-15-2016, 04:45 PM
Today I finally got my autosomal DNA results and uploaded them to GEDmatch.

My Dodecad World9 Oracle results look interesting:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Baltic 74.09
2 Caucasus_Gedrosia 15.77
3 Southern 8.85
4 Siberian 0.71
5 South_Asian 0.41
6 Amerindian 0.17

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
(...)
2 93.7% Polish (Dodecad) + 6.3% Armenians (Behar) @ 1
3 94.3% Polish (Dodecad) + 5.7% Armenian (Dodecad) @ 1.01
4 94.6% Polish (Dodecad) + 5.4% Assyrian (Dodecad) @ 1.06
(...)
12 94.1% Polish (Dodecad) + 5.9% Georgians (Behar) @ 1.13
(...)
17 94.4% Polish (Dodecad) + 5.6% Abhkasians (Yunusbayev) @ 1.18
18 94.3% Polish (Dodecad) + 5.7% Kurds (Yunusbayev) @ 1.18
19 94.4% Polish (Dodecad) + 5.6% Kurd (Dodecad) @ 1.24

vettor
09-15-2016, 05:35 PM
Today I finally got my autosomal DNA results and uploaded them to GEDmatch.

My Dodecad World9 Oracle results look interesting:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Baltic 74.09
2 Caucasus_Gedrosia 15.77
3 Southern 8.85
4 Siberian 0.71
5 South_Asian 0.41
6 Amerindian 0.17

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
(...)
2 93.7% Polish (Dodecad) + 6.3% Armenians (Behar) @ 1
3 94.3% Polish (Dodecad) + 5.7% Armenian (Dodecad) @ 1.01
4 94.6% Polish (Dodecad) + 5.4% Assyrian (Dodecad) @ 1.06
(...)
12 94.1% Polish (Dodecad) + 5.9% Georgians (Behar) @ 1.13
(...)
17 94.4% Polish (Dodecad) + 5.6% Abhkasians (Yunusbayev) @ 1.18
18 94.3% Polish (Dodecad) + 5.7% Kurds (Yunusbayev) @ 1.18
19 94.4% Polish (Dodecad) + 5.6% Kurd (Dodecad) @ 1.24

I have always found that this World9 test being accurate, but any number over 5, IIRC in the 1 population approx was noted as poor

It was one of the only tests for me which had O_Italian ( other italian = italians in france, swiss, austria, slovenia or croatia)


my fathers below
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Baltic 57.66
2 Southern 25.49
3 Caucasus_Gedrosia 15.13


Finished reading population data. 250 populations found.
9 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 N_Italian @ 2.057294
2 North_Italian @ 3.666421
3 Baleares @ 6.768276
4 Bulgarians @ 7.387842


Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% French +50% O_Italian @ 0.773960

Cellachán
10-28-2016, 07:59 PM
Very thought provoking. My mtdna haplogroup is rare in Europe but a small established presence of n1bs are found in the areas of the old commonwealth. I wonder if this is the source. Incidentally my maternal grandmothers family were from today's Belarus of polish identity. Unusual surname of Pawacki for my deepest maternal ancestor. Not that I expect that name directly is tied to an Armenian name or anything. No middle eastern points given to my mom on 23andme, but it could just be washed out after a feet hundred years of absorbing native Slavic genes

Ritter
06-25-2017, 08:04 PM
I'm of Armenian descent on my paternal side, my surname is the polonised form of the Armenian name Pernat'enc.

J1 DYS388=13
06-26-2017, 07:44 AM
I'm of Armenian descent on my paternal side, my surname is the polonised form of the Armenian name Pernat'enc.

What's your Y-DNA type?

Mis
06-26-2017, 08:32 AM
.......:(