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Tomenable
04-10-2016, 08:16 PM
This is part of prof. Figlerowicz's Project, about which I wrote here:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6522-Early-Medieval-aDNA-from-Poland-coming-soon&p=142472&viewfull=1#post142472

Prof. Figlerowicz and his team plan to collect DNA samples from 340 places of burials of members of the Piast dynasty.

Recently they have collected samples from graves of the Piasts who ruled the Duchy of Brieg and the Duchy of Opole:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Opole

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Brzeg

An article about this here (in Polish), with photos:

http://www.nto.pl/wiadomosci/brzeg/a/naukowcy-pobrali-probki-z-urn-ze-szczatkami-brzeskich-piastow,9429360/2/

https://d-pt.ppstatic.pl/k/r/1/fd/79/56cd96359a39f_p.jpg?1456314043

https://d-pt.ppstatic.pl/k/r/1/ea/5a/56cc79ec419ef_p.jpg?1456314029

rozenfeld
04-10-2016, 08:52 PM
When the first results will be published? I've heard that may be in autumn?

Tomenable
04-10-2016, 09:30 PM
There is also new archaeological research.

Excavations uncovered evidence of continous settlement in Wielkopolska during the 4th, 5th and 6th centuries AD:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6886-Greater-Poland-continuously-inhabited-during-the-Migration-Period&p=150297&viewfull=1#post150297

Those were descendants of Lugiorum Nomen (the federation of Lugii Tribes). One of those tribes were the Vandals.


When the first results will be published? I've heard that may be in autumn?

Yes, probably this Autumn.

Tomenable
04-10-2016, 09:32 PM
It seems that Greater Poland (Wielkopolska) region was continuously inhabited since at least the Bronze Age until present-day.

Tomenable
04-10-2016, 09:39 PM
This doesn't change the fact, that most of other regions were depopulated. It seems, that Greater Poland was a "special" region:

Pollen diagrams show that in most of Central Europe, agricultural activity ceased to exist during the Migration Period:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6826-Anthropogenic-Indicators-in-Pollen-Diagrams-(Palynology)&p=149089&viewfull=1#post149089

lukaszM
04-07-2017, 10:06 AM
From Polish FTDNA projekct...




post Today, 09:18 Quote Post


QUOTE
Surprise - according to dr hab. Tomasz Kozłowski from University of Toruń, male's members od The Piast dynasty were R1b !


QUOTE
Do you know what their autosomal DNA and mtDNA were?


QUOTE
As I know, they determined only Y DNA Haplogroup

lukaszM
04-07-2017, 10:39 AM
No sensacją jest również to co mówi Kozłowski o ich pochodzeniu. Czytajcie:)
https://s21.postimg.org/7etqe78lh/ydna-piast-royal-dynasty.jpg
https://s13.postimg.org/yvs3q34fb/ydna-piast-royal-dynasty2.jpg

lukaszM
04-07-2017, 10:53 AM
As I remember Kozlowski was rather proponent of autochtonous theory yes?

Tomenable
04-07-2017, 01:26 PM
L617 please... !!! :biggrin1:

parastais
04-07-2017, 02:05 PM
Interesting.. I was thinking in lines of R1a or I2.

Tomenable
04-07-2017, 02:16 PM
Interesting.. I was thinking in lines of R1a or I2.

I was expecting something under R1a-M458 and L260.

Which is why I didn't join Piast FTDNA Project before.

Romilius
04-07-2017, 02:27 PM
Interesting.. I was thinking in lines of R1a or I2.

I was thinking about I2 too...

Tomenable
04-07-2017, 02:28 PM
I was thinking about I2 too...

Why I2 though? Odds that it could be I2 were much lower than for R1b.

The most common haplos in Poland are: R1a, R1b, I1, I2. In this order.

Romilius
04-07-2017, 02:30 PM
Why I2 though? Odds that it could be I2 were much lower than for R1b.

The most common haplos in Poland are: R1a, R1b, I1, I2. In this order.

Because it is a sort of surprise haplogroup that pops up unespected: think about that I2a from Yamna.

lgmayka
04-07-2017, 02:41 PM
The text of the article is, of course, absurdly simplistic and sometimes baldly incorrect.

- About 10-20% of Polish men belong to R1b, not 5-10% as the article claims. Thus, the article's definitive assertion, based solely on the R1b haplogroup, that "the ancestors of the Piasts were not Slavs" is ludicrous.

- The article's reference to R1a as "the Slavic haplogroup" insults both I2a-Dinaric men, who are equally Slavic, and R1a men in India, who are definitely not Slavic.

- The article's double assertion that I1 is an "Old European" haplogroup that "dominates" Scandinavia is wildly overstated as well. I1 has been found very rarely in pre-Neolithic remains, and all I1 living today descends from one lucky man who lived only 4600 years ago. Scandinavian men often belong to R1a or R1b instead.

- Kozłowski's claim that his team could not discern any subhaplogroup more specific than R1b is disturbing. He blames the condition of the remains, but one must wonder whether a team with better equipment and methods could have gotten more complete results.

ADW_1981
04-07-2017, 02:48 PM
Why I2 though? Odds that it could be I2 were much lower than for R1b.

The most common haplos in Poland are: R1a, R1b, I1, I2. In this order.

I think I2 is higher than I1, but otherwise agree. I believe R1a and I2-Din correlate in the more eastern or north eastern regions of Poland, especially as you get closer to Belarus. Most importantly, you can't group all the R1a in a single movement of men, some dates back quite anciently, even if the sum is about 50% in the country or more.

Tomenable
04-07-2017, 02:52 PM
Please merge this thread with the other one:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6522-Early-Medieval-aDNA-from-Poland-coming-soon/page37

Why are we talking about this in two threads?

leonardo
04-07-2017, 03:00 PM
From Polish FTDNA projekct...




post Today, 09:18 Quote Post


QUOTE
Surprise - according to dr hab. Tomasz Kozłowski from University of Toruń, male's members od The Piast dynasty were R1b !


QUOTE
Do you know what their autosomal DNA and mtDNA were?


QUOTE
As I know, they determined only Y DNA Haplogroup

Does this reinforce that they may have been refugees from Great Moravia?

Romilius
04-07-2017, 05:13 PM
Does this reinforce that they may have been refugees from Great Moravia?

I was thinking about the same thing...

Tomenable
04-07-2017, 06:02 PM
According to as yet unpublished rumours, one sample of R1b-U152 was found in Proto-Balto-Slavic Trzciniec culture. So even some lineages under R1b-L51 could be part of the Proto-Slavic community.

On the other hand, being R1a-Z284, R1a-L664 or R1a-Z93 woud indicate being Non-Slavic.

We can't generalize by claiming that all of R1a is Slavic and all of R1b is definitely not.

vettor
04-07-2017, 06:15 PM
The text of the article is, of course, absurdly simplistic and sometimes baldly incorrect.

- About 10-20% of Polish men belong to R1b, not 5-10% as the article claims. Thus, the article's definitive assertion, based solely on the R1b haplogroup, that "the ancestors of the Piasts were not Slavs" is ludicrous.

- The article's reference to R1a as "the Slavic haplogroup" insults both I2a-Dinaric men, who are equally Slavic, and R1a men in India, who are definitely not Slavic.

- The article's double assertion that I1 is an "Old European" haplogroup that "dominates" Scandinavia is wildly overstated as well. I1 has been found very rarely in pre-Neolithic remains, and all I1 living today descends from one lucky man who lived only 4600 years ago. Scandinavian men often belong to R1a or R1b instead.

- Kozłowski's claim that his team could not discern any subhaplogroup more specific than R1b is disturbing. He blames the condition of the remains, but one must wonder whether a team with better equipment and methods could have gotten more complete results.

The question that we need to ask is ................what was the dominant ydna marker of the barbarians ( goths and vandals ) that invaded the Roman empire in the 4th century ...............clearly it was not R1a nor I1 ...................

My guess is that modern Poland and southern Ukraine at the time of the goths and vandals was in majority R1b

Romilius
04-07-2017, 06:18 PM
According to as yet unpublished rumours, one sample of R1b-U152 was found in Proto-Balto-Slavic Trzciniec culture. So even some lineages under R1b-L51 could be part of the Proto-Slavic community.

On the other hand, being R1a-Z284, R1a-L664 or R1a-Z93 woud indicate being Non-Slavic.

We can't generalize by claiming that all of R1a is Slavic and all of R1b is definitely not.

Holy words! Thanks for saying it!

Tomenable
04-07-2017, 06:23 PM
Holy words! Thanks for saying it!

But the majority of R1b in Poland is either Pre-Slavic or Post-Slavic.

Only some specific lineages of R1b could be expanding with Slavs.

Mis
04-07-2017, 07:03 PM
Przypomnę że w Polskim projekcie jest Pan który twierdzi iż jest potomkiem Piastów Śląskich jest R1b ( ma bardzo stare Polskie nazwisko). Droga jego gałęzi prowadzi z Węgier Morawy na Śląsk. To taka ciekawostka.

Silesian
04-07-2017, 10:19 PM
The question that we need to ask is ................what was the dominant ydna marker of the barbarians ( goths and vandals ) that invaded the Roman empire in the 4th century ...............clearly it was not R1a nor I1 ...................

My guess is that modern Poland and southern Ukraine at the time of the goths and vandals was in majority R1b
Vettor it can get complicated.
My line is dated to about 400 to 700 AD in Poland. I share with Mis and smal.
R-V2986PH1723/BY593/V2986 * Y11811 * Y14079+19 SNPsformed 4800 ybp, TMRCA 1600 ybpinfo
I'm waiting for this result-R-Y14306Y14306formed 1600 ybp, TMRCA 1300 ybpinfo 1 in Poznan 1 in Jelna if I test + then also 1 from Silesia.
Our branch is not that common, found from Sweden to Poland to Ossetians. For example- Alans at 5587+ 5586+ Sweden R-Y5592-Y5592formed 4800 ybp, TMRCA 4800 ybpinfonegative CTS1450 and R-Y5587. We just have to wait for more samples to resolve the pattern.

leonardo
04-07-2017, 10:59 PM
Przypomnę że w Polskim projekcie jest Pan który twierdzi iż jest potomkiem Piastów Śląskich jest R1b ( ma bardzo stare Polskie nazwisko). Droga jego gałęzi prowadzi z Węgier Morawy na Śląsk. To taka ciekawostka.

Possibly.

Brent.B
04-07-2017, 11:20 PM
Any news for M458? Dying to know

ADW_1981
04-07-2017, 11:51 PM
Vettor it can get complicated.
My line is dated to about 400 to 700 AD in Poland. I share with Mis and smal.
R-V2986PH1723/BY593/V2986 * Y11811 * Y14079+19 SNPsformed 4800 ybp, TMRCA 1600 ybpinfo
I'm waiting for this result-R-Y14306Y14306formed 1600 ybp, TMRCA 1300 ybpinfo 1 in Poznan 1 in Jelna if I test + then also 1 from Silesia.
Our branch is not that common, found from Sweden to Poland to Ossetians. For example- Alans at 5587+ 5586+ Sweden R-Y5592-Y5592formed 4800 ybp, TMRCA 4800 ybpinfonegative CTS1450 and R-Y5587. We just have to wait for more samples to resolve the pattern.

I also think your line is from Alans. R1b-Z2103 seems to have a weak distribution among Germanic speakers and in central-eastern Europe and is probably the result of a late intrusion of Iranic tribes 300-400 AD. It doesn't have the same distribution as R1a-M458 and I2-M423 in eastern Europe who seem most strongly associated with Slavic speakers.

Romilius
04-08-2017, 12:33 PM
I can't read Polish... is there any English translation of the article?

P.S.: is it possible that all could write in English? We are in the international part of the forum.

lyakh
04-08-2017, 02:37 PM
R1b in Piast dynasty is quite surprising. Rather R1a (especially M458, L260, YP254) was expected. It is interesting what lineage under R1b Piasts have. I suppose that Piasts' lineage might be from slavicised Germanic population.

Silesian
04-08-2017, 04:53 PM
I also think your line is from Alans. R1b-Z2103 seems to have a weak distribution among Germanic speakers and in central-eastern Europe and is probably the result of a late intrusion of Iranic tribes 300-400 AD. It doesn't have the same distribution as R1a-M458 and I2-M423 in eastern Europe who seem most strongly associated with Slavic speakers.
Perhaps you are right, and R1b joined the expansion late.

Poland began to form into a recognizable unitary and territorial entity around the middle of the 10th century under the Piast dynasty. Poland's first historically documented ruler, Mieszko I, accepted Christianity with the Baptism of Poland in 966, as the new official religion of his subjects
We have a more detailed breakdown of TMRCA values of various R1a and R1b-Z2103/Z2110 found in the region.
For example some TMRCA values for R1a in Poland-
R-L260 - TMRCA 2600 ybp (12.9%)
R-YP256 - TMRCA 2300 ybp (9.3%)
R-YP1017 - TMRCA 1900 ybp
R-YP2905 - TMRCA 1800 ybp
R-YP3927 - TMRCA 1750 ybp (1.0%)
R-YP593 - TMRCA 1300 ybp
Similar R1b TMRCA range 1300-1750ybp R-YP3927 and R-YP593
R-YP3297 *[Poland] YP3927 *R-YP3927Y20982 * A5414/YP3927 * A5412/YP3928+1 SNPsformed 1750 ybp, TMRCA 1750 ybpinfo
R1b-BY593 - TMRCA 1600 ybp
R1b-PH2147 - TMRCA 1600 ybp
R1b-Y14306 - TMRCA 1300 ybp
R1b-Y29917 - TMRCA 1350 ybp
R1a-YP593+ not to be confused with R1b-BY593+

resources
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP3927/
http://www.gwozdz.org/polishclades.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland

vettor
04-08-2017, 06:46 PM
There are still members here who assume that all R1a is slavic and all R1b is Germanic .............the mind boggles :frusty:

Joe B
04-08-2017, 07:48 PM
There are still members here who assume that all R1a is slavic and all R1b is Germanic .............the mind boggles :frusty:Especially in this case. If he turns out to be in one of the R1b-Y5587 clades, that is about as non-Germanic as you can get. There are six R1b-Y5587 subgroups in the R1b Basal subclades project. Running through the maps of those subgroups roughly shows a Eastern European distribution with just a few exceptions. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1bBasalSubclades?iframe=ymap

leonardo
04-08-2017, 09:14 PM
I can't read Polish... is there any English translation of the article?

P.S.: is it possible that all could write in English? We are in the international part of the forum.

Don't forget the Celts had a presence in the area for centuries before. Here is an article that writes of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Al%C4%99%C5%BCa. THe Celts were also part of the Amber Trade, in conjunction with Germanic and Slavic tribes. The Celts were also present in the Lusatian Culture, especialy its western edges: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusatian_culture. Perhaps some of these became Slavicisized?

Generalissimo
04-09-2017, 09:38 PM
The Piast sample that turned out R1b apparently has very little human DNA in it.

A second team is testing the sample now to confirm the result.

Romilius
04-11-2017, 02:12 PM
The Piast sample that turned out R1b apparently has very little human DNA in it.

A second team is testing the sample now to confirm the result.

http://mediewalia.pl/wydarzenia/haplogrupa-piastow-to-r1b-teoria-normanska-powraca/

I found this article about the samples: it seems they are pretty sure of the result and the origin of the sample.

rms2
04-11-2017, 03:21 PM
http://mediewalia.pl/wydarzenia/haplogrupa-piastow-to-r1b-teoria-normanska-powraca/

I found this article about the samples: it seems they are pretty sure of the result and the origin of the sample.

This does sound pretty confident:



The research was carried out under absolutely sterile conditions, repeated several times, not one man working with them, and coordinated by dr hab. Iwona Teul, anthropologist and anatomist. So we have one hundred percent certainty. This is haplogroup R1b.

Joe B
04-11-2017, 04:44 PM
The Piast sample that turned out R1b apparently has very little human DNA in it.

A second team is testing the sample now to confirm the result.Let's hope they take this opportunity to test downstream clades or just do a NGS test.

Tomenable
04-14-2017, 09:45 AM
They will extract DNA from bones of Piast kings Ladislaus I and Casimir III:

http://naukawpolsce.pap.pl/aktualnosci/news,413826,powstaje-genetyczny-portret-dawnych-mieszkancow-terenow-polski.html

"Everything indicates, that these are the best preserved graves of the Piast dynasty".


Spore nadzieje naukowcy pokładają w badaniach grobów Władysława Łokietka i Kazimierza Wielkiego na Wawelu. "Wszystko wskazuje na to, że są to najlepiej zachowane groby członków dynastii Piastów. To ważne, by z takich właśnie grobów pobrać DNA, który po zbadaniu może posłużyć jako wzorzec do identyfikacji innych członków rodu" - opowiada naukowiec.

They are both buried in St. Leonard's Crypt beneath the Wawel Cathedral:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wawel_Cathedral#St._Leonard.27s_Crypt_beneath_the_ Cathedral

As for Y-DNA of Janusz III of the Mazovian branch of Piasts, Davidski wrote:


This result might well be correct, but my point was that it was done with PCR on a very degraded sample, and another test is being done now using SNP capture and enrichment to double check the result, and I guess to try and work out the subclade.

Anyway, expect a lot of confusing results and surprises from Bronze Age, Iron Age and Medieval Poland when the relevant papers finally come out. I've seen a few of them, and it's hard to work out what was going on there.

lukaszM
04-16-2017, 10:37 AM
I want to know what exactly Davidsky thought here. Maybe little more he could reveal?

lukaszM
04-16-2017, 10:39 AM
Very different regional populations? General results different between bronze age , iron age and early medieval?

Generalissimo
04-16-2017, 11:32 AM
Yes.

I've got two Wielbark genomes on my laptop, and they look like Bronze Age Hungarians.

Silesian
04-16-2017, 12:06 PM
Regardless what ydna the Piasts carried; we can get a general idea of the composition of the founding[fathers] population using general snp's formation/TMTCA estimates alone. The snp formations/TMRCA estimates cluster for possible expansions.For example if one accepts the notion that a Steppe migration occurred around 4800 ybp+/-and the formation of Slavic Poland took place around 900 AD or the years prior +/-. and the founding population was anywhere between 500,00-1,000,000+/-. I think it would be a pretty safe bet that the cluster formation YP256/YP1337/L1029/YP515 was involved with the beginning creation of Slavic[tribes] in Poland. What other snp's can be parsed to qualify/fit the criteria in this time period. Time will tell if this set/cluster is involved with the formation.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/R1a._Info-19.05.2014.jpg/1280px-R1a._Info-19.05.2014.jpg

R.Rocca
04-16-2017, 02:03 PM
Yes.

I've got two Wielbark genomes on my laptop, and they look like Bronze Age Hungarians.

Interesting. If my memory serves me correct, didn't Bronze Age Hungarians plot closer to Western Europeans?

Generalissimo
04-16-2017, 02:34 PM
Interesting. If my memory serves me correct, didn't Bronze Age Hungarians plot closer to Western Europeans?

Yes, but paradoxically, Bronze Age Hungarian BR2 shows highest haplotype sharing with Poles despite plotting with the French.

These genomes aren't of the same quality as BR2, so there's no way to run the same type of analysis, but they plot with BR2.

Gravetto-Danubian
04-16-2017, 02:42 PM
Yes, but paradoxically, Bronze Age Hungarian BR2 shows highest haplotype sharing with Poles despite plotting with the French.

These genomes aren't of the same quality as BR2, so there's no way to run the same type of analysis, but they plot with BR2.

So they share more ancient ancestry with west Europeans, but more recent with Poles (and other west Slavs presumably).
It basically means Slavs absorbed considerable "Germanics" in the west lands, during the colonisation phase, and before the state formation period, rise of Piasts, etc. In other words, when Poles first began emerging, eastern and western elements had already fused.

lukaszM
04-16-2017, 03:35 PM
Yes.

I've got two Wielbark genomes on my laptop, and they look like Bronze Age Hungarians.

It's weird IMO. Hmm. I guess Poland Bronze Age would be similar. But why Wielbark?

leonardo
04-16-2017, 05:22 PM
So they share more ancient ancestry with west Europeans, but more recent with Poles (and other west Slavs presumably).
It basically means Slavs absorbed considerable "Germanics" in the west lands, during the colonisation phase, and before the state formation period, rise of Piasts, etc. In other words, when Poles first began emerging, eastern and western elements had already fused.

Interesting. So you are referring to the 7th - 10th centuries?

Jean M
04-16-2017, 06:04 PM
Yes, but paradoxically, Bronze Age Hungarian BR2 shows highest haplotype sharing with Poles despite plotting with the French.

I took a look at the map of the location of the samples in Gamba 2014 and then located Ludas (location of BR2) on Google Map. It is in the region of the Tisza river, mentioned as one route into Old Upland Corded Ware (Małopolska group), by Piotr Włodarczak, The traits of Early-Bronze Pontic cultures in the development of Old Upland Corded Ware (Małopolska group) and Złota culture communities, in A. Kosko et al. (ed.), Reception Zones of 'Early Bronze Age' Pontic Culture Traditions : Baltic basin - Baltic and Black Sea drainage borderlands, 4/3 mil. to first half 2 mil. BC, Baltic-Pontic Studies, vol. 19 (2014), pp. 7-52. His map here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10197-Re-theorising-the-Corded-Ware-Culture-(Kristiansen-et-al-2017)&p=226919&viewfull=1#post226919

I use this in my attempt to work out a trail for PIE to the homeland of pre-Germanic over here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10134-Origins-of-Germanic&p=223215&viewfull=1#post223215

What this actually means I'm not too sure.

vettor
04-16-2017, 06:20 PM
It is not surprising that royal lines from any nation came from outside that nation.

as an example ........ Greece to become a nation ( via the rules from the Congress of Vienna 1815-1820 ) they had to seek a Bavarian family line to become Kings of Greece. who knows what haplogroup they belonged to

The Piast line was only named that in the 17th century ................it will be hard work to link them to anything prior the 9th century

Tomenable
04-17-2017, 08:24 AM
Vettor,


It is not surprising that royal lines from any nation came from outside that nation.

Why do you think that R1b indicates foreign descent?

R1b can mean that the Piasts are descended from Pre-Slavic, Iron Age population of Western Poland:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6886-Greater-Poland-continuously-inhabited-during-the-Migration-Period&p=150297&viewfull=1#post150297

Interestingly Mieszko I was described by sources as "Misico dux Wandalorum" (duke of the Vandals):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6886-Greater-Poland-continuously-inhabited-during-the-Migration-Period&p=152460&viewfull=1#post152460


Gerhard of Augsburg in "Vita et Miracula Sancti Oudalrici" ("Life of St Ulrich" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulrich_of_Augsburg#Early_years)) wrote about duke Mieszko I of Poland:

"Alio quoque tempore quidam dux Wandalorum, Misico nomine cum sagitta toxicata in brachium vulneratus est. Qui cum sentiret, sese veneno nocivo esse percessum, et sibi inminere mortis interitum eadem hora putaret, cum magna fide et constantia votum vovit, ut brachium argentum cum manu quam cicius potuisset ad sanctum Oudalricum mittere non differet. Qui statim post votum relevatus a periculo, ad domum suam rediit, et brachium secundum suum votum componere praecepit. Cumque fabri brachium fabricare coepissent, et manum in eo fingerent, dux continuo de inminenti periculo liberatus surrexit, Deum laudans, qui cum per merita sui sancti episcopi de mortis periculo liberavit."

He called Mieszko "duke of the Vandals". Could it be that some of his subjects still identified as Vandals in the 900s?

Tomenable
04-17-2017, 08:33 AM
It is worth mentioning that palynological studies of the area of Kruszwica and Lake Gopło - the very same area, which is associated with legends about the origins of the Piast dynasty - show that this area was continuously inhabited (continuous farming activity) during the Migration Period. Coincidence ???

Lake Gopło: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gop%C5%82o


Some historians and archaeologists consider the area of Lake Gopło the heart of the first state of the Polans, the "founding" tribe of Poland.[1]

Procopius also mentioned those Vandals who stayed in Poland and mingled with Slavs:


Procopius in History of the Wars, III, xxii, 13-16 wrote about those Vandals who never moved from their original homeland:

"(...) Now as for those Vandals who remained in their native land, neither remembrance nor any name of them has been preserved to my time. (...) they were either overpowered by the neighbouring barbarians or they were mingled with them [Slavs] not at all unwillingly and their name gave way to that of their conquerors. Indeed, when the Vandals were conquered at that time by Belisarius, no thought occurred to them to go from there to their ancestral homes. For they were not able to convey themselves suddenly from Libya to Europe, especially as they had no ships at hand, but paid the penalty [2] there for all the wrongs they had done the Romans and especially the Zacynthians. (...)"

[2] In Arcana, 18, 5 ff., Procopius estimates the number of the Vandals in Africa, at the time of Belisarius, at 80,000 males, and intimates that practically all perished.

vettor
04-17-2017, 06:17 PM
Vettor,



Why do you think that R1b indicates foreign descent?

R1b can mean that the Piasts are descended from Pre-Slavic, Iron Age population of Western Poland:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6886-Greater-Poland-continuously-inhabited-during-the-Migration-Period&p=150297&viewfull=1#post150297

Interestingly Mieszko I was described by sources as "Misico dux Wandalorum" (duke of the Vandals):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6886-Greater-Poland-continuously-inhabited-during-the-Migration-Period&p=152460&viewfull=1#post152460

I do not say they are foreign to Poland, but could be ..................we also see the Pommerian "dukes" who ruled over Slavic people where of German descent , the kings of italy where of French descent , the rules of Nassau where of Italian descent ( house of Mantua , Gonzaga ).etc

As I stated previously, I believe Poland at the time of the Goths , Burgundians, Bastanae and Vandals had more R1b than I1 or R1a . ...............this is pre-slavic

Mis
04-17-2017, 06:38 PM
At this stage you can not prove or deny this.

Tomenable
04-17-2017, 06:43 PM
the Pommerian "dukes" who ruled over Slavic people where of German descent

Which Pomeranian dynasty do you have in mind?

vettor
04-17-2017, 07:12 PM
Which Pomeranian dynasty do you have in mind?

origins via Margravine of Nordmark, house of Haldensleben

that house formed by saxons and norwegians

after many centuries, the title of king of the Wends ( wends only lived in Poland and mecklenburg germany ) was taken by the house of Denmark and from 1540 by the house of Sweden and to this day , this house still holds that title.

Tomenable
04-24-2017, 01:05 PM
It is worth mentioning that palynological studies of the area of Kruszwica and Lake Gopło - the very same area, which is associated with legends about the origins of the Piast dynasty - show that this area was continuously inhabited (continuous farming activity) during the Migration Period. Coincidence ???

Lake Gopło: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gop%C5%82o

Map:

"Obszar o gęstym zasiedleniu przez ludność kultury przeworskiej"
(= "Area densely settled by people of the Przeworsk culture")

^^^ Note that areas around Lake Gopło were densely settled:

http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/slask/germania_taraka.jpg

Gravetto-Danubian
04-24-2017, 01:12 PM
Map:

"Obszar o gęstym zasiedleniu przez ludność kultury przeworskiej"
(= "Area densely settled by people of the Przeworsk culture")

^^^ Note that areas around Lake Gopło were densely settled:

http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/slask/germania_taraka.jpg

I think there's little doubt that populations continued in central-western & SW Poland.
Put more precisely: there is little doubt that a population which existed before the 'Slavic expansions" continued to do so after in that region, however, that population perhaps had itself not lived there since the early Roman Period, or Iron Age, but could have moved there from c. 300 AD.

Tomenable
04-24-2017, 01:14 PM
but could have moved there from c. 300 AD.

And they came from Silesia perhaps.

Gravetto-Danubian
04-24-2017, 01:20 PM
And they came from Silesia perhaps.

Maybe. Not sure at this stage. But it is clear they were somehow linked to Thuringia.

Mis
04-27-2017, 11:24 AM
Piast? http://kto.tam.free.fr/

Waldemar
04-28-2017, 12:05 PM
Kilka ośrodków naukowych chciałoby przeprowadzić badania DNA szczątków książąt, w tym średniowiecznych władców Polski Władysława I Hermana i Bolesława III Krzywoustego, którzy spoczywają w katedrze w Płocku. Biskup płocki Piotr Libera nie wyklucza takiej możliwości.

W czwartek w płockim Muzeum Diecezjalnym odbyła się sesja popularno-naukowa poświęcona trwającej od 2015 r. konserwacji Kaplicy Królewskiej płockiej bazyliki, gdzie pochowanych jest kilkunastu książąt mazowieckich – to największa nekropolia Piastów.

„Kilka ośrodków, instytutów naukowych zwróciło się do mnie z prośbą o możliwość zbadania szczątków książąt pochowanych w Kaplicy Królewskiej metodą DNA pod kątem pochodzenia genomu pogrzebanych tu Piastów. To sprawa bardzo poważna, bardzo delikatna również. Są to bowiem szczątki ludzkie, szczątki władców Polski” – powiedział PAP bp Libera.

Jak zaznaczył, powołany przez niego zespół naukowy pod przewodnictwem historyka, mediewisty prof. Henryka Samsonowicza, ustalił, iż przed ewentualnymi badaniami szczątków Piastów należy zakończyć prowadzoną renowację Kaplicy Królewskiej. W radzie zasiadają m.in. ks. prof. dr hab. Michał Grzybowski - wykładowca płockiego Wyższego Seminarium Duchownego i dr Wojciech Brzeziński - dyrektor Państwowego Muzeum Archeologicznego w Warszawie.

„Spotkaliśmy się kilka razy. To, co zostało wypracowane polegałoby na tym, że najpierw musimy dokończyć odnowienie Kaplicy Królewskiej. Chodzi o to, żeby badania DNA, których nie wykluczam, były wkomponowane w całość renowacji Kaplicy Królewskiej. Ponieważ te prace jeszcze trwają, więc na tym etapie trudno jest ocenić, jak będzie dalej. Ale ja jestem oczywiście otwarty, żeby przekazać próbki do badań DNA. Kiedy to nastąpi, trudno mi w tym momencie powiedzieć” – podkreślił bp Libera.

Prace konserwatorskie w Kaplicy Królewskiej płockiej katedry prowadzone są dzięki finansowemu wsparciu PERN. Na ten cel spółka ta, zarządzająca siecią rurociągów naftowych w kraju, która ma swą siedzibę właśnie w Płocku, przekazała 400 tys. zł.

„W Polsce, w naszym kraju, gdzie przetoczyło się tyle frontów, tyle wojen, tyle nieszczęść, powinniśmy dbać ze szczególną troską o to, co nam zostało. To jest dziedzictwo, które musi być szczególnie chronione. Mamy obowiązek, żeby je przekazać naszym następcom w stanie niepogorszonym, a jeżeli to tylko możliwe, znacznie polepszonym. To jest zaszczyt, że możemy razem w tym uczestniczyć” – powiedział w trakcie sesji Piotr Naimski, pełnomocnik rządu ds. strategicznej infrastruktury energetycznej, któremu podlega PERN.

Prezes PERN Igor Wasilewski zadeklarował, że spółka ta, poprzez takie działania, jak wsparcie dla odnowienia Kaplicy Królewskiej w płockiej katedrze, chce być „odpowiedzialnym mecenasem kultury i strażnikiem pamięci”. „To odpowiedzialność za dziedzictwo przodków. Tak to postrzegamy, i tak to chcemy przekazać młodemu pokoleniu” – oświadczył.

Wasilewski dodał, iż PERN sfinansuje lekcje historii dla uczniów i stworzy portal internetowy na temat historii Płocka i tamtejszej nekropolii Piastów. „Nasze działania zmierzają do tego, aby otworzyć Kaplicę Królewską dla zwiedzających, żebyśmy mogli pokazać, że Płock jest ważnym miejscem na mapie kulturalnej i historycznej Polski” – powiedział prezes PERN.

Wybudowana w latach 1130-44 w stylu romańskim przez biskupa Aleksandra z Malonne katedra Wniebowzięcia Najświętszej Marii Panny w Płocku jest jedną z pięciu najstarszych w kraju i jedną z trzech, gdzie pochowani są dawni władcy Polski. W tamtejszej kaplicy Królewskiej, obok dawnych władców Polski: Władysława I Hermana (1043-1102) i Bolesława III Krzywoustego (1086-1138), spoczywają też szczątki 14 piastowskich książąt mazowieckich, w tym Konrada I Mazowieckiego (1187-1247), a także księżniczki Gaudemundy-Zofii (zm. 1288 r.), córki Wielkiego Księcia Litwy Trojdena, żona Bolesława II Mazowieckiego (1251-1313).

Prowadzone tam prace konserwatorskie, które dobiegają końca, objęły dotychczas m.in. odnowienie ściennych polichromii, posadzki i kraty wejściowej, a także wymianę oświetlenia. Termin ich zakończenia przewidywany jest na czerwiec. (PAP)

http://naukawpolsce.pap.pl/aktualnosci/news,413996,plock-kilka-osrodkow-chce-przeprowadzic-badania-dna-szczatkow-piastow.html

http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/70/b3/14/z21705840V,Remont-Katedry-Krolewskiej-dobiega-konca.jpg

http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/71/b3/14/z21705841V.jpg

http://plock.wyborcza.pl/plock/51,35681,21713324.html?i=0

Bollox79
04-28-2017, 03:16 PM
http://naukawpolsce.pap.pl/aktualnosci/news,413996,plock-kilka-osrodkow-chce-przeprowadzic-badania-dna-szczatkow-piastow.html

http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/70/b3/14/z21705840V,Remont-Katedry-Krolewskiej-dobiega-konca.jpg

http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/71/b3/14/z21705841V.jpg

http://plock.wyborcza.pl/plock/51,35681,21713324.html?i=0

When they do the testing... I hope they at least do it with the same resolution as they did with these guys - as you figure these remains are not as old as the Driffield boys... https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10326 as we were able to tease out additional SNP markers that I and a few others match 6drif-3 at as Alex Williamson looks at the fastq file and found more positives in the SNP markers... it is possible with the petrous (inner ear) bone.

Cheers!