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DillonResearcher
04-15-2016, 05:54 PM
Just got this announcement in an email from FTDNA:

"Exciting news for members of the R1b-L2 Haplogroup!

With assistance from Mike Walsh, Family Tree DNA is pleased to announce the introduction of our new R1b-L2 SNP Pack with a comprehensive list of the essential SNPs for this branch of the R1b-L2 Haplogroup. The purpose of this test is to identify your terminal SNP on the Y-DNA Tree of mankind."

Hopefully, we might see it on sale on DNA Day.

Bdeed
04-15-2016, 11:18 PM
Also just received this. Was on the verge of ordering Big Y. Should I now stick to the pack instead?

DillonResearcher
04-15-2016, 11:29 PM
I'm in the same situation as you in terms of being about to order Big Y. I'm probably still going to go for Big Y though since the SNP pack won't cover everything under L2 and given my luck with testing in the past I'd imagine that my SNPs below L2 won't be covered!

Also, if I don't order Big Y I'll probably spend a similar amount of money on SNP packs and individual SNPs in the long run.

Osiris
04-16-2016, 01:08 AM
While every one has their own budget I'm really happy with my Big Y. I have two known steps below L2 that are fairly rare which takes me to roughly 4500 BC. Then I have 30 more SNPs after that which take me to 1730.

The SNP pack will only take you as far forward as the SNPs in the pack. With the Big Y my hope is that this group of 30 undated SNPs will gradually be picked apart as other testers show up who test positive for 20 and negative for 10 or some other combination. Slowly we can build the tree out to cover the most recent few millenia.

Provided they also test Big Y or Y Elite and that these men actually exist. Haha, you never know if you're last living member of an ancient group founded 2000 years ago.

Cofgene
04-16-2016, 10:40 AM
Just got this announcement in an email from FTDNA:

"Exciting news for members of the R1b-L2 Haplogroup!

With assistance from Mike Walsh, Family Tree DNA is pleased to announce the introduction of our new R1b-L2 SNP Pack with a comprehensive list of the essential SNPs for this branch of the R1b-L2 Haplogroup. The purpose of this test is to identify your terminal SNP on the Y-DNA Tree of mankind."

Hopefully, we might see it on sale on DNA Day.


STOP using the phrase "terminal SNP". You are not doing full y-chromosome testing of the individual, brothers, uncles, father.. to find the most recent SNP. The community needs to wipe that phrase from its lexicon. You are potentially identifying the last commonly shared SNP that is known at this time.

MitchellSince1893
04-16-2016, 01:54 PM
STOP using the phrase "terminal SNP". You are not doing full y-chromosome testing of the individual, brothers, uncles, father.. to find the most recent SNP. The community needs to wipe that phrase from its lexicon. You are potentially identifying the last commonly shared SNP that is known at this time.

What is the official term or most understood term for " the last commonly shared SNP that is known at this time"?

I've used the phrase "my current terminal SNP" which acknowledges the temporary nature of this designation.

If there is another agreed upon term I will start using that instead, but using " the last commonly shared SNP that is known at this time"? is not practical...it's a mouthful. Maybe TLCSSTIKATT :)

But if there isn't an accepted/recognized term, how about "The most recent known SNP" TMRKS?

Goes along with The most recent common ancestor TMRCA

Ravai
04-17-2016, 12:25 PM
Hi All,

If the pocket allows , the best option is Big-Y.

Regards

TigerMW
04-18-2016, 10:51 PM
What is the official term or most understood term for " the last commonly shared SNP that is known at this time"?

I've used the phrase "my current terminal SNP" which acknowledges the temporary nature of this designation.

If there is another agreed upon term I will start using that instead, but using " the last commonly shared SNP that is known at this time"? is not practical...it's a mouthful. Maybe TLCSSTIKATT :)

But if there isn't an accepted/recognized term, how about "The most recent known SNP" TMRKS?

Goes along with The most recent common ancestor TMRCA

I empathize with Cofgene's position and certainly the word "terminal" does not make one feel good as we age. However, this is a standard term the industry and academia have dealt us. It is difficult thing to re-institute new terminology unless you have the bully pulpit or huge advertising budget. We don't, so I will use word terminal haplogroup as well.

TigerMW
04-18-2016, 10:58 PM
Also just received this. Was on the verge of ordering Big Y. Should I now stick to the pack instead?
Do the Big Y, for sure. It's the only way to discover your own line of SNPs and get the on the board with FTDNA so your SNPs can be included in future fixed SNP packs.

I posted this in the U152 category with some specific information and the SNP position details for L2.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6928-U152-SNP-Packs-from-FTDNA&p=151715&viewfull=1#post151715

Keep in mind this is not the L2 everything pack. It is the L2 top layer and misc. subclades pack. It is intended to help people who are L2+ or L2+ and lightly downstream tested to find their current terminal haplogroup. The downstream SNPs of Z367 and Z49 are NOT included. They will get their own specialized packs.

You could think of the L2 pack as the R1b-L2 (xZ367 xZ49) pack although Z367, the SNP, and Z49, the SNP, are included as pointer/bridge SNPs to their more respective more specialized packs.

MitchellSince1893
04-18-2016, 11:55 PM
I empathize with Cofgene's position and certainly the word "terminal" does not make one feel good as we age. However, this is a standard term the industry and academia have dealt us. It is difficult thing to re-institute new terminology unless you have the bully pulpit or huge advertising budget. We don't, so I will use word terminal haplogroup as well.

Yes after posting the above I posted the following in another thread yesterday.

According to ISOGG "terminal SNP" is proper to describe this situation.

"A terminal SNP is the defining SNP of the latest subclade known by current research"...So why do we need a new term again?

As this is the common understanding of the "terminal SNP", maybe an easier solution is a term to distinguish between latest known by research and the no kidding last SNP in a line.

As I said in another thread I include the term "current" before "terminal SNP" i.e. "my current terminal SNP" to indicate that this is what is currently known. Maybe include the term "final terminal SNP" to indicate that this line has been fully researched.

If those are too long one could abbreviate it to CT-SNP and FT-SNP.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6667-R1b-SNP-Packs-from-FTDNA&p=151551#post151551

Kwheaton
04-19-2016, 12:18 AM
Hi All,

If the pocket allows , the best option is Big-Y.

Regards

I would modify this to say if the pocket allows the best option is a Y Elite from Full Genomes Corp for $750.

;)

Bdeed
04-23-2016, 09:42 AM
The current ft offer made it viable. Bigy on way. Does anyone know the current wait?

A.Morup
04-24-2016, 12:51 PM
I also went BigY this weekend on the sale. Let's see what lurks beyond my Z367...

Ravai
04-25-2016, 06:36 AM
The current ft offer made it viable. Bigy on way. Does anyone know the current wait?

I took a month. Although it depends on the workload they have.

Regards

Bdeed
04-25-2016, 07:38 PM
Thanks Ravai

A.Morup
04-26-2016, 08:38 AM
When I have my BigY BAM-files, where do I upload them for "max science"?
I did the BigY instead of waiting for the Z367 SNP-pack, mainly to support the development of our SNP knowledge, rather than just being a follower...

lgmayka
04-26-2016, 10:00 AM
When I have my BigY BAM-files, where do I upload them for "max science"?
If you submit your BAM file to YFull (https://yfull.com/order/), your entry will (after analysis) appear on their public haplotree (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Z367/). YFull's analysis costs $49, but payment is not required until SNP analysis is substantially complete.

Of course, you are free to submit your BAM file to multiple research teams, for "max science."

lgmayka
05-25-2016, 09:51 AM
Kit 195719 received results from his L2 SNP Pack. He received exactly two new positive results:
Z49+ FGC4183+

FGC4183 is the same as S14469. Unfortunately:
- FGC4183/S14469 is not yet on FTDNA's haplotree, so FTDNA classifies him merely as R-Z49
- YFull has an elaborated haplotree for R-S14469 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-S14469/), but displays it as a brother of Z49, not a son.

Do we have any confirming evidence that FGC4183 is truly downstream from Z49 ? For example, do the academic samples ERS257048 and HG00152 show Z49+ ?

It is unfortunate that the L2 SNP Pack is not nearly what an ordinary customer might assume it to be.
- It does not cover any of the subclades of Z49
- It does not cover any of the subclades of FGC4183

EDIT: YFull asserts that entries YF04161 and YF03106 are
Z49- FGC4183+

And of course, plenty of entries are
Z49+ FGC4183-

We have a conflict here. Either YFull, or the L2 SNP Pack, is misreading one of these two SNPs (Z49 and FGC4183); or one of the two SNPs is unreliable.

Mudgeeclarke
05-25-2016, 10:05 AM
If I am understanding it correctly, the pack is of no use to me. I think I am "tested out" except for a full read which is not likely to advance my genealogical research at this point. I can't see anywhere else I can spend money just now. ;)

So, I'll have to sit pat with my R-S1491, and wait for the bus load of 1491ers, or lower on the branch, to come along. I'm not surprised. My brick wall has been solid, since 1979, before the luxury of the Internet - and relatively inexpensive DNA testing.

lgmayka
05-25-2016, 10:15 AM
Either YFull, or the L2 SNP Pack, is misreading one of these two SNPs (Z49 and FGC4183); or one of the two SNPs is unreliable.
Ytree.net (http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=437&star=false) also portrays FGC4183 as a brother, not a son, of Z49. I must now suspect that the L2 SNP Pack is giving false positives for Z49.

Acque agitate
05-25-2016, 11:09 AM
Ytree.net (http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=437&star=false) also portrays FGC4183 as a brother, not a son, of Z49. I must now suspect that the L2 SNP Pack is giving false positives for Z49.


Hello lgmayka,
As I have already mentioned in another thread, with high probability, the kit n 195719 belongs to the following northern European group:

U152> L2> Z49, Z68> S8183, FGC20812> FGC31474> FGC20796> S12993, FGC20774, FGC20777

This is not incompatible with the fact this kit is also positive for FGC4183 (simple coincidence whose probability is high but not extremely high).
I point out to you that also the kit n 414339 belongs to the subgroup FGC20777+ group. This kit has a similar feature: although it is Z49+ (+ al), it is also positive for FGC5344, a mutation that, along with other 9, defines another L2 subgroup (my subgroup).

As regards the subgroup in question I can only point out that it is a pity that the kits that meet the following requirements:
DYS19 = 15
DYS448 = 17

do not undergo the specific test for FGC20777, in my opinion the chance to be positive is very high;

Acque agitate
05-25-2016, 11:42 AM
Hello lgmayka,
I add this consideration.
Some time ago I made probabilistic calculations and I have verified that if a group consisting of persons of which you only know the positivity for L2 is subjected to the test for all first mutations that define subgroups of L2 (circa n 20), the possibility to have a false positive is not very high.
The (almost) sure it occurs only if there is a coincidence of two successive mutations.
For example, I had my doubts that the kit n 408671 belonged to Richard Group (FGC10516). But when I have verified that this kit is positive not only for FGC10516, but also for FGC10536 and FGC10543, I realized that I was wrong (the probability of a false positive is nearly impossible with 3 consecutive mutations).

haleaton
05-25-2016, 01:35 PM
Ytree.net (http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=437&star=false) also portrays FGC4183 as a brother, not a son, of Z49. I must now suspect that the L2 SNP Pack is giving false positives for Z49.

I am also incorrectly FGC4183+, though correctly Z49-, in my just arrived R1b-L2 SNP Pack results. Everything else is correct, FGC5301+, FGC5303+, FGC5306+, FGC5308+, L2+, U152+ based on FGC, Sanger, and other tests.

So for my little subclade I am am happy there is test with four SNP whose age could be from 1000 years to L2 or ZZ48.

haleaton
05-25-2016, 01:45 PM
I am also incorrectly FGC4183+, though correctly Z49-, in my just arrived R1b-L2 SNP Pack results. Everything else is correct, FGC5301+, FGC5303+, FGC5306+, FGC5308+, L2+, U152+ based on FGC, Sanger, and other tests.

So for my little subclade I am am happy there is test with four SNP whose age could be from 1000 years to L2 or ZZ48.

Edit: Also looks like only 14 samples in the first round of results.

Acque agitate
05-25-2016, 01:59 PM
A further confirmation to what I said earlier:
The Kit No. 305360 (Andrew Liston,) is positive for these mutations formally incompatible:
a) BY2824 (defines the subgroup U152> L2> BY2823, BY2824, BY2825, BY2826, BY2827);

b) FGC14641 (defines the subgroup U152> L2> DF90 et al.);

This kit belongs to FGC14641 subgroup and not to subgroup BY2824. This is because it shares other mutations that define a subgroup of FGC14641 (BY3490 + al., and other typical STR of this subgroup).

lgmayka
05-25-2016, 02:36 PM
So are posters saying that the FGC4183+ result is incorrect, even though it well fits the ancestry? The FGC4183 clade (https://yfull.com/tree/R-S14469/)has plenty of Polish members, as expected.

Acque agitate is suggesting that #195719 belongs to the FGC2077 clade (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y4355/). If true, this shows how foolish it was to offer a so-called L2 SNP Pack that doesn't actually descend into the subclades--and hence makes reliable interpretation impossible!

I must again point out my surprise that the so-called L2 SNP Pack does not test any of the subclades of Z49 or FGC4183.

In short, this SNP pack appears to have been a total waste of money, because it is has not given us certainty about anything.

Acque agitate
05-25-2016, 03:45 PM
So are posters saying that the FGC4183+ result is incorrect, even though it well fits the ancestry? The FGC4183 clade (https://yfull.com/tree/R-S14469/)has plenty of Polish members, as expected.

Acque agitate is suggesting that #195719 belongs to the FGC2077 clade (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y4355/). If true, this shows how foolish it was to offer a so-called L2 SNP Pack that doesn't actually descend into the subclades--and hence makes reliable interpretation impossible!

I must again point out my surprise that the so-called L2 SNP Pack does not test any of the subclades of Z49 or FGC4183.

In short, this SNP pack appears to have been a total waste of money, because it is has not given us certainty about anything.


Hello lgmayka,
I understand your displeasure but I'm not totally agree with you.
I seem to remember that:
a) the L2 pack has been conceived and designed for the kits that are L2+ and Z49-, Z367-;
b) For the kits Z49+ Z367+ FTDNA will realizate a specific pack in the future;

The current L2 pack is definitely not a perfect product, but has the distinction to offer a sufficient depth to people who are not going to pay over $ 500 for Bigy or FGC.
I was one of the pioneers of the test at FGC and I would do it again a thousand times despite the cost. I am, however, aware that not all people have my propensity to spend for genetic investigations.

lgmayka
05-25-2016, 10:03 PM
a) the L2 pack has been conceived and designed for the kits that are L2+ and Z49-, Z367-;
How in the world is an L2+ supposed to know his Z49 or Z367 status without a SNP pack? FTDNA apparently "forgot" that it offered a Deep Clade test long ago, which tested L2. Many men therefore know that they are L2+ but have no knowledge of subclade status.

Moreover, I must repeat: Because of conflicting results, this L2 SNP Pack does not tell us the Z49 status with any certainty either. Indeed, I now wonder whether FTDNA's individual SNP test for Z49 works properly or not. Have we crosschecked such results against other products like Y Elite? Perhaps R-Y18894 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y18894/)is not really Z49+ ? (Its status relies on a single individual Z49 SNP test result.)


b) For the kits Z49+ Z367+ FTDNA will realizate a specific pack in the future;
First, you can be sure that the men who blew $100 on this L2 SNP Pack (after blowing $100 on the old Deep Clade) are not going to blow yet another $100, perhaps to be fooled again.

Second, please understand that in the case of #195719, we still don't know whether he is Z49+, FGC4183+, both, or neither. His SNP pack results do not square with what we think we know about the haplotree from other testing, so we have effectively learned nothing.

TigerMW
05-25-2016, 10:25 PM
How in the world is an L2+ supposed to know his Z49 or Z367 status without a SNP pack? FTDNA apparently "forgot" that it offered a Deep Clade test long ago, which tested L2. Many men therefore know that they are L2+ but have no knowledge of subclade status.

Moreover, I must repeat: Because of conflicting results, this L2 SNP Pack does not tell us the Z49 status with any certainty either. Indeed, I now wonder whether FTDNA's individual SNP test for Z49 works properly or not. Have we crosschecked such results against other products like Y Elite? Perhaps R-Y18894 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y18894/)is not really Z49+ ? (Its status relies on a single individual Z49 SNP test result.)

First, you can be sure that the men who blew $100 on this L2 SNP Pack (after blowing $100 on the old Deep Clade) are not going to blow yet another $100, perhaps to be fooled again.

Second, please understand that in the case of #195719, we still don't know whether he is Z49+, FGC4183+, both, or neither. His SNP pack results do not square with what we think we know about the haplotree from other testing, so we have effectively learned nothing.

You can blame me Lawrence. I'm just trying to exploit the technologies that FTDNA has to get the most value out of them for the most folks. If Z49 as an SNP is not working, that's another matter. They should rerun their tests for that for free in those cases.

I haven't posted about this on the R1b-YDNA yahoo group for a while, but this on the Activity Feed pinned post.

I'll pull out the coverage strategy from that post.
As I understand them, key principles of FTDNA's coverage strategy are:
1. Complete coverage for R1b subclades.
2. No more than two SNP Packs needed to identify a terminal (most youthful) terminal haplogroup. There are a couple of gaps in this so they will need more updates.
3. Multiple entry points based on individuals current SNP and STR test results.
4. Robust support for many SNPs including SNPs under investigation or phylogenetc equivalent blocks that are likely to be busted.

The R1b-M343 Backbone Pack generally has all of the "bridge" or "pointer" SNPs in it to get you to the only other pack you need to order. That's what strategy point #2 above is about. The U152 and L2 packs should have pointers in them to so if you jump in with say the L2 pack you'll find out if you need the Z49, for example.


https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/activity-feed
"It is my understand that a couple of new U152 SNP Packs are about to be released.

Current Pack line-up:
R1b-M343 Backbone (bridges to ALL of the below)
R1b-P312 top-layer and misc (DF19,L238,DF99)
R1b-Z2103 (old L23* or Armenian Haplotype)

R1b-DF27 support:
R1b-DF27 top-layer and misc subclades (bridges to the below)
R1b-Z198 (SRY2627 & L165)
R1b-Z209 (North-South Cluster & Basque M153)

R1b-L21 support:
R1b-L21 top-layer and misc subclades (bridges to the below)
R1b-CTS4466 (Irish II/South)
R1b-DF41
R1b-DF49 (xM222)
R1b-L1065 (Scots Modal & most L1335 people)
R1b-L555 (Clan Irwin under Z251)
R1b-L513 (11-13 Combo)
R1b-M222 (Northwest Irish)
R1b-Z246 (DF25, DF5)
R1b-Z253 (Irish III & Irish IV)
R1b-Z255 (Irish Sea/Leinster)
R1b-Z3000 (Clan Colla)
DF21 pack to come.

R1b-U152 support:
R1b-Z43 (~Z56)
R1b-L2 (xZ367 xZ49) top-layer and misc subclades
R1b-Z367
R1b-Z49
More to come for U152.

R1b-U106 support:
R1b-U106 top-layer and misc subclades (bridges to the below)
R1b-L47
R1b-L48 (xL47 xZ8 xZ326)
R1b-Z8
R1b-Z18
R1b-Z156
R1b-Z326

As I understand them, key principles of FTDNA's coverage strategy are:
1. Complete coverage for R1b subclades.
2. No more than two SNP Packs needed to identify a terminal (most youthful) terminal haplogroup. There are a couple of gaps in this so they will need more updates.
3. Multiple entry points based on individuals current SNP and STR test results.
4. Robust support for many SNPs including SNPs under investigation or phylogenetc equivalent blocks that are likely to be busted.

The SNP Packs are economical ways to test for known SNPs. However, Big Y has the important benefit of discovering your own lineage of SNPs, be they known or unknown (new). Big Y should be considered if you can afford it.

To order an SNP Pack, log into myFTDNA, click on the blue "Upgrade" button, then click on the blue "Buy Now" button in "Advanced Tests." Next, enter "SNP Pack" in "Select a Product" and a list of packs will show up. If you order you will receive a convoluted warning message that you will have to click through by hitting "Order Now". This message is not correct but is intended to make you think twice. If in in doubt, ask here what pack you want."

I think FTDNA needs a product description (paragraph) for every pack so besides listing the SNPs included on the tree and those that are exploratory you will. Last summer I recommended such a paragraph with some terminology that labels the pack products consistently. For example, they like to call the M343 pack the M343 Backbone pack. I recommended they call the L2 pack the L2 "top-layer and misc. subclades" pack and that they call the packs like Z49 the Z49 "terminal" or "subclade" pack, although I don't like terminal. They need something kinds of labeling like that.

Of course, they didn't listen to me on that stuff. They actually did follow suit on the DF49x pack and they labeled it the "DF49xM222 SNP Pack". In a similar vernacular, the L2 pack should have been the "L2xZ367xZ49 SNP Pack" or better the "L2xZ367xZ49 Subclades SNP Pack"

As always, it's very important for people to join the various forums and ask questions. Everybody who is R1b (R-M343, R-P25 or R-M269) of any type or any downstream subclade is invited to the R1b-YDNA yahoo group to ask these kinds of questions.

lgmayka
05-25-2016, 11:11 PM
As always, it's very important for people to join the various forums and ask questions. Everybody who is R1b (R-M343, R-P25 or R-M269) of any type or any downstream subclade is invited to the R1b-YDNA yahoo group to ask these kinds of questions.
This is more than an information issue.

1) Many people already spent $100 on the Deep Clade-R test, and were found to be L2+ . (In fact, some of them probably also spent an earlier $100 on the original Deep Clade.) Apparently, planners expected such people to pay another $200.

2) Either Z49 or FGC4183, or both, are apparently not working properly in this SNP pack. Saying that FTDNA "should" rerun the packs will not make it happen--partly because FTDNA has apparently already taken the position that the Z49 result is correct, and the FGC4183 result should be ignored. But of course, (a) we don't know whether that's true, and (b) if it's true, then members of FGC4183 are not getting much for their money.

EDIT: I now notice that #195719 does have results for some subclades of FGC4183:
FGC4166-
FGC4220-
FGC8158-
FGC8178-

This increases the probability that the positive FGC4183 result is incorrect, and that #195719 is indeed Z49+ .

lgmayka
05-25-2016, 11:40 PM
As I have already mentioned in another thread, with high probability, the kit n 195719 belongs to the following northern European group:

U152> L2> Z49, Z68> S8183, FGC20812> FGC31474> FGC20796> S12993, FGC20774, FGC20777
...
As regards the subgroup in question I can only point out that it is a pity that the kits that meet the following requirements:
DYS19 = 15
DYS448 = 17

do not undergo the specific test for FGC20777, in my opinion the chance to be positive is very high;
I presume you mean this thread from 2014 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2404-Important-new-group-Z49-Z142-probably-of-nordic-origin). Very interesting, although it is difficult to rely on a 2-marker classification for a 4300-year-old clade (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y4355/).

lgmayka
07-31-2016, 03:06 AM
As I have already mentioned in another thread, with high probability, the kit n 195719 belongs to the following northern European group:

U152> L2> Z49, Z68> S8183, FGC20812> FGC31474> FGC20796> S12993, FGC20774, FGC20777
That prediction turned out to be slightly incorrect. #195719 tested
U152+ L2+ Z49+ S8183+ Y4356/FGC31474+ Y4353/FGC20796+ Y4354/FGC20774+ S12993+

but
Y4355/FGC20777-

Instead, he also tested S8172+ Z18331+ . He therefore forms a subclade with this Puerto Rican research sample (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y4354*/) which is S8172+ .

gilco
11-27-2018, 10:35 PM
As always, it's very important for people to join the various forums and ask questions. Everybody who is R1b (R-M343, R-P25 or R-M269) of any type or any downstream subclade is invited to the R1b-YDNA yahoo group to ask these kinds of questions.

Can you please kindly share the yahoo group link? Thank you!

MitchellSince1893
11-27-2018, 11:47 PM
Can you please kindly share the yahoo group link? Thank you!
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-YDNA/info
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-P312-Project/info
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-U152-Project/info