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newtoboard
02-28-2013, 08:09 PM
These are frequencies from another forum. But I thought it was interesting. I don't know where the samples were from or if they were decent in size.


Y-DNA of Republic Azeris
J2a-20.8%
R1a-19%
R1b-17.5%
E1b-11.1%
G2-8.0%
T-7.9%
L-4.8%
J1-4.8%
Q-4.8%
N-1.6%

Y-DNA of Iranian Azeris
J2b-21.11%
R1b-15.15%
G2-12.12%
J1-9.09%
R1a-9.09%
Q-9.09%
N-6.06%
L-3.03%
J2a-3.03%
R2-3.03%
G1-3.03%
C3-3.03%
O-3.03%

These frequencies are truly surprising. It looks like the Republic Azeris are more Indo-Iranian in chracter from those studies with J2a makng up close to 40% of their Y-DNA lineages with a percentage of aout 12% for Iranian Azeris. R2 is absent from the Republic Azeri gene pool but L is present. There was no clade breakdown for the Iranian Azeri L but the Republic Azeri L included L1a and L1c which in my opinion is a lineage that arrived in the Azeri gene pool from the East as Armenian seem to posses L1b when they possess L. In addition so much is made of how similar Republic Azeris are to Armenians yet R1b only represent 17.5% of Republic Azeri samples whereas R1b frequencies among Armenians seem to be higher and in the range of 30-40%. In addition J1 and G2 seem to be more important in the Armenian gene pool compared to the Republic Azeri gene pool. Armenian exhibit a lot of G2a diverity and part of the Republic Azeri G2 here is G2c. In addition it seems like Iranian Azerbaijan had more Eastern settlement. Eastern lineages (represented by Q, N, C3 and O at a combined frequency of 21.2%) seem to be more repesented in the Iranian Azeri sample than the Republic one (which exhibits Eastern lineages at a frequency of just 6.4% which includes just Q and N and no C3 or O). Very surprising because I thought the Kura-Araxes basin was subject to more nomadic Turkic settlement (but the geography of the area still confuses me as I thought a large portion of the Kura-Araxes basin lies in Nagarno-Karabakh which is historically and majority Armenian according to Armenians although their claim on Paytakran seems unfounded given its Iranian character).

NK19191
03-02-2013, 07:56 PM
These are frequencies from another forum. But I thought it was interesting. I don't know where the samples were from or if they were decent in size.


Y-DNA of Republic Azeris
J2a-20.8%
R1a-19%
R1b-17.5%
E1b-11.1%
G2-8.0%
T-7.9%
L-4.8%
J1-4.8%
Q-4.8%
N-1.6%

Y-DNA of Iranian Azeris
J2b-21.11%
R1b-15.15%
G2-12.12%
J1-9.09%
R1a-9.09%
Q-9.09%
N-6.06%
L-3.03%
J2a-3.03%
R2-3.03%
G1-3.03%
C3-3.03%
O-3.03%

These frequencies are truly surprising. It looks like the Republic Azeris are more Indo-Iranian in chracter from those studies with J2a makng up close to 40% of their Y-DNA lineages with a percentage of aout 12% for Iranian Azeris. R2 is absent from the Republic Azeri gene pool but L is present. There was no clade breakdown for the Iranian Azeri L but the Republic Azeri L included L1a and L1c which in my opinion is a lineage that arrived in the Azeri gene pool from the East as Armenian seem to posses L1b when they possess L. In addition so much is made of how similar Republic Azeris are to Armenians yet R1b only represent 17.5% of Republic Azeri samples whereas R1b frequencies among Armenians seem to be higher and in the range of 30-40%. In addition J1 and G2 seem to be more important in the Armenian gene pool compared to the Republic Azeri gene pool. Armenian exhibit a lot of G2a diverity and part of the Republic Azeri G2 here is G2c. In addition it seems like Iranian Azerbaijan had more Eastern settlement. Eastern lineages (represented by Q, N, C3 and O at a combined frequency of 21.2%) seem to be more repesented in the Iranian Azeri sample than the Republic one (which exhibits Eastern lineages at a frequency of just 6.4% which includes just Q and N and no C3 or O). Very surprising because I thought the Kura-Araxes basin was subject to more nomadic Turkic settlement (but the geography of the area still confuses me as I thought a large portion of the Kura-Araxes basin lies in Nagarno-Karabakh which is historically and majority Armenian according to Armenians although their claim on Paytakran seems unfounded given its Iranian character).

I am also surprised by these numbers. I wonder since the seat of the power of both qara koyunlu and aq koyunlu were in the Iranian Azerbaijan and centered around both Tabriz ( it became their capital ) and Ardabil ( it was the capital city of Iranian Azerbaijan), that is main reason for the presence of high eastern genes. Interestingly the nomadic people of Shahsevan Tribe in Ardabil show a lot of light hair and eyes among them today and Central Asian phenotype is not really present among them.

It is interesting the Azeris in Azerbaijan have so much R.


I wonder if user DMXX can also comment, since he and I are both of Iranian Azeri fathers and both us belong to R haplogroup.

DMXX
03-02-2013, 08:22 PM
The last row of data looks like it's from Regueiro et al. from memory. In that study, they simply divided Iran into north and south, so the 33 or so North Iranians they sampled cannot be taken as Azeri in the truest sense. I do not remember them ever stating they sampled the Azeri provinces.

We need to know where this data came from, because the last one definitely looks like it's the non-Azeri specific North Iranian data from Reguiero et al.

To contrast it with Grugni et al.'s analysis of Azeri's from W. Azarbaijan province, where 63 people were sampled, the combined frequency of Y-DNA Haplogroups C, N, O and Q (which are typically equated with Turkish influence) comes to 6.4%, which is over three times smaller than the data presented in the second line. See the image at the bottom of this post. Clearly, it is a case of small sample sizes affecting the result.

If my assertion is correct and the second line of data is indeed from Reguiero, then we have an interesting case of data misidentification; north Iranian genetic data has been mistaken for Azeri Iranian genetic data. Quite a convoluted path.

[Edit]: My memory has served me well. The second line of data is indeed from Reguiero et al. (click here (http://www.yhrd.org/files/b465c9a4e956626445689b1dd11409ef27e60d0f.regueiro2 006.pdf)). This data is therefore not from the Azeri Republic, or even from Azeri Iranian specifically. Whoever your source was made quite a large error.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_mypYjUAwqw/UAjZdNrHAqI/AAAAAAAAAMY/nxbhHviubow/s1600/study4.png

NK19191
03-02-2013, 08:35 PM
^^ How does the relationship between Iranian Azeris and Azeris from Azerbaijan manifest itself Genetically. Baku, Ganja and Shirvan (Shirvan Shahis Dynasty) areas had been centers of Persian language (specially Ganja birth place of Nezami Ganjavi) and culture and later on both regions adopted the same language Azeri Turkish and culturally we are both the same. Even Nakhjavani region speak Azeri-Turkish with a very Iranian Azeri Accent.

DMXX
03-02-2013, 08:45 PM
I don't know the answer to this. We have very circumstantial data from each group separately which may well change if the two are compared against one another.

What we do know is Azeri Iranians are closest to other Iranian populations. The Grugni et al. demonstrated this through one set of uniparental markers (Y-DNA), whilst this study from Tabriz (Asgharzadeh et al. (http://ijb.nigeb.ac.ir/index.php/ijb/article/viewFile/746/319)) shows the same in the other (mtDNA).

In my personal opinion, I suspect there will be some evidence of genetic similarity between Azeri Iranians and those from the Republic, however I anticipate Azeri Iranians to remain closer to other Iranians (particularly those from the northwest given geography such as Kurds, the Talysh, Gilakis) while Republic Azeris will show more of a pull towards other South Caucasians. I do not expect the linguistic connection to be complemented by genetics to the same degree.

NK19191
03-02-2013, 09:08 PM
I don't know the answer to this. We have very circumstantial data from each group separately which may well change if the two are compared against one another.

What we do know is Azeri Iranians are closest to other Iranian populations. The Grugni et al. demonstrated this through one set of uniparental markers (Y-DNA), whilst this study from Tabriz (Asgharzadeh et al. (http://ijb.nigeb.ac.ir/index.php/ijb/article/viewFile/746/319)) shows the same in the other (mtDNA).

In my personal opinion, I suspect there will be some evidence of genetic similarity between Azeri Iranians and those from the Republic, however I anticipate Azeri Iranians to remain closer to other Iranians (particularly those from the northwest given geography such as Kurds, the Talysh, Gilakis) while Republic Azeris will show more of a pull towards other South Caucasians. I do not expect the linguistic connection to be complemented by genetics to the same degree.


However, is it a fair assumption to have people of Republic of Azerbaijan cluster closest to NW Iranians aside from other groups in South Caucasus. That is if you compare them to other none South Caucasus Region people, we would be closest to them. Furthermore, Of all the South Caucasus people they would cluster closest to Iranians.

DMXX
03-02-2013, 09:16 PM
However, is it a fair assumption to have people of Republic of Azerbaijan cluster closest to NW Iranians aside from other groups in South Caucasus. That is if you compare them to other none South Caucasus Region people, we would be closest to them. Furthermore, Of all the South Caucasus people they would cluster closest to Iranians.

It's very possible that is the case and I wouldn't be surprised, you are right, it certainly is a fair assumption. The Safavids held onto the Caucasus for a very long time and the Republic was Iranian territory until the Treaty of Turkmenchay.

If newtoboard could reveal where exactly he received his information from, it would be a good start in fleshing out the nature of the affinities between Azeri Iranians, Republic Azeris and other peoples from the Caucasus and Iranian plateau.

newtoboard
03-03-2013, 05:32 PM
If those were generic North Iranian samples I am even more surprised. Eastern lineages being represented at these percentages in North Iranians (assuming that they didn't test Turkmen and North Iranians are represented by Azeris, Talysh, Mazandarani, Persian and Gilaki speakers). The lack of Y-DNA I would also be surprising as most Gilaki and Mazandarani samples seem to show some (an interesting topic in itself). Either way a small sample size or testing of Turkmen or something is reducing the true amount of J2a, R1a, and R1b in North Iran. The curious lack of J1b which seems to be well represented near the Caspian (as it probably originated there) is also very telling that this probably wasn't a typical sample.

The South Caucasus doesn't seem to be a homogenous place although Georgians seem to be the best representation. We often hear how close Azeris are to Armenians but aren't Armenians shifted southwards towards NE and Central Anatolia? In the same way Azeris are probably also shifted southwards towards the Iranian plateau. It would be more interesting to see how close Azeri from the Republic are to Georgians vs North Iranians.


I'm more curious on the position of Azeris living in the Republic but South of the Araxes. I assume they would have been speaking Old Azari and not Armenian, Talysh or the dialect of Persian spoken in Arran. What about the Tats of Azerbaijan (the Judeo-Tats of Dagestan seem to be completely different). What about Azeris in Turkey who live manily in Northeast and Northcentral Turkey? Are they Azerified Anatolians (Greeks, Armenians, Georgians) or does their history lie in Iran or Arran?

NK19191
03-03-2013, 06:02 PM
Just to show you how pervasive and strong Iranian influence in Azerbaijan has been. The
Azerbaijani Jews of Arran who are called mountain Jews, speak a Judeo-Persian Language. It is a Persainized Hebrew language that they speak. Ganja itself is a Persian word meaning Treasure.

The Azeris of Turkey are either from Arran or Iranian Azerbaijan, the former has been the main source of their migration. The Azeris in Turkey are mainly due to various political events that occurred in Arran and Iranian Azerbaijan. The first wave of these migration was during the Safavid Dynasty in the 16th Century when some settled in Eastern Turkey ( Eastern Turkey was at that time Part of Iran)

AJL
03-03-2013, 06:06 PM
Just to show you how pervasive and strong Iranian influence in Azerbaijan has been. THe Azerbaijani Jews of Arran who are called mountain Jews, speak a Judeo-Persain Language. It is a Persainized Hebrew language that they speak.

Yes, a form of Tat.

newtoboard
03-03-2013, 06:15 PM
The Mountain Jews , Muslim tats and Christian tats aren't the same people. The first are basically Dagestani jews, the second are Persianized Azerbaijanis and the last are Armenians.

NK19191
03-03-2013, 06:45 PM
The Tat people (also: Tati, Parsi, Daghli, Lohijon, Caucasian Persians, Transcaucasian Persians) are an Iranian people, presently living within Azerbaijan, Armenia, and Russia (mainly Southern Dagestan). The Tats are part of the indigenous peoples of Iranian origin in the Caucasus.[1][2][3]
Tats use the Tat language, a southwestern Iranian language. Azerbaijani and Russian are also spoken. Tats are mainly Shia Muslims, with a sizeable number of Sunni Muslims

The earliest mention of Persians in the Caucasus is found in the Greek historian Herodotus' account of the Achaemenid expansion of 558-330 BC, during which they annexed Transcaucasia(South Caucasus) as the X, XI, XVIII and XIX satrapies of their empire.[4]
Archaeological material uncovered in present-day Azerbaijan, Armenia and Georgia include Achaemenid architecture, jewelry and ceramics.[5]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Tats_in_azerbaijan_1890.png

Farroukh
12-29-2013, 05:12 PM
Azerbaijan DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Azerbaijan/default.aspx?section=yresults)
Large part of them are West Asian haplogroups (E1b1b1, J1, J2, G2a, T1a2, R1b1a2) with a little beat of Central Asian hapogroups (N1b, O3, R1a, R1b1b)

newtoboard
12-29-2013, 05:32 PM
Azerbaijan DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Azerbaijan/default.aspx?section=yresults)
Large part of them are West Asian haplogroups (E1b1b1, J1, J2, G2a, T1a2, R1b1a2) with a little beat of Central Asian hapogroups (N1b, O3, R1a, R1b1b)

It has been said Azeris are closest to Armenians. But I doubt that. I see less R1b than Armenians and a lot more R1a.

Also you have an interesting mtDNA.

the SUN child
12-29-2013, 05:52 PM
Millions of ethnic Kurds have been assimilated into the Azeri nation in Azerbaijan. Even the president of the republic of Azerbaijdan, Ilham Aliyev, has Kurdish roots.

Silesian
12-29-2013, 05:54 PM
It has been said Azeris are closest to Armenians. But I doubt that. I see less R1b than Armenians and a lot more R1a.
R1b in Armenians is clustered in
If you sample only Armenians, you get a concentration of 30% of R1b1a2. If you sample only Armenians from Karabakh and Syunik you get concentrations of more than 40%. bordering southwestern Azerbaijan, and Kurdish region to the south.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx?section=news

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/Kurdish-inhabited_area_by_CIA_%281992%29.jpg

the SUN child
12-29-2013, 05:56 PM
Kurdistansky Uyezd (Red Kurdistan)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistansky_Uyezd



Forced assimilation and ethnic cleansing in the Republic of Azerbaijan

http://arpush85.livejournal.com/583.html


Kurds in Azerbaijan face threat of assimilation

http://www.tert.am/en/news/2011/07/01/kurt/


Azerbaijan's Kurds Fear Loss Of National Identity

http://www.rferl.org/content/azerbaijan_kurds_fear_loss_national_identity/24252317.html

the SUN child
12-29-2013, 06:01 PM
Red kurdistan

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Red_kurdistan_1930.png




http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8bG2ABDTaoU


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d_4WWw3RPw&feature=player_embedded

Silesian
12-29-2013, 06:07 PM
Kurdistansky Uyezd (Red Kurdistan)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistansky_Uyezd
http://arpush85.livejournal.com/583.html
http://www.tert.am/en/news/2011/07/01/kurt/
http://www.rferl.org/content/azerbaijan_kurds_fear_loss_national_identity/24252317.html
Very interesting, I never knew Kurdish populations bordered Armenia.

the SUN child
12-29-2013, 06:55 PM
Very interesting, I never knew Kurdish populations bordered Armenia.The so called borders in the Near East are fake borders that were drawn after the WW1 and WW2. Those borders are artificial and don’t correspondent with ethno-linguistical, ethno-social and cultural reality on the ground.

In reality Kurdistan borders mostly Georgia (Laz region! ) and Armenia in north.

Farroukh
12-30-2013, 02:23 AM
Azeri R1b1a is R1b1a2-L584 and belongs to the same cluster.
Azeri G2a (P303+, all others are negative) is unique and has no matches. It was finded in Talish population.

About 20% are the descendants of Turkoman tribes. (My mtDNA has Central Asian/Turkic origin too). All others are typical West Asians. I think all of them (peoples of Azerbaijan , Armenia and border areas of Iran and Turkey) origin from ancient Urartu people.

P. S. Tati (Parsi) people is the Persian people of Azerbaijan. About 20% of Azeris from Shirvan and Arran has Parsi roots.

Silesian
12-30-2013, 03:06 AM
Azeri R1b1a is R1b1a2-L584 and belongs to the same cluster.
Azeri G2a (P303+, all others are negative) is unique and has no matches. It was finded in Talish population.

About 20% are the descendants of Turkoman tribes. (My mtDNA has Central Asian/Turkic origin too). All others are typical West Asians. I think all of them (peoples of Azerbaijan , Armenia and border areas of Iran and Turkey) origin from ancient Urartu people.

P. S. Tati (Parsi) people is the Persian people of Azerbaijan. About 20% of Azeris from Shirvan and Arran has Parsi roots.

Thanks, do you know what regions R1b L584 can be found among Azeri, Kurds,Talysh . Is this very accurate, Avestan- Talysh language.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_94dqXFvEs

soulblighter
12-30-2013, 03:12 AM
Azeri G2a (P303+, all others are negative) is unique and has no matches. It was finded in Talish population.

Do you have an STR profile for the Azeri G-P303?

Joe B
12-30-2013, 03:31 AM
Azeri R1b1a is R1b1a2-L584 and belongs to the same cluster.

Welcome to Anthrogenica Farroukh. Took another look at the Azerbaijan DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Azerbaijan/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) R1b1a2, Z2103+, candidates for L584+ group and the STRs look a little more diverse that just R1b-L584. Could be some L227 and maybe some other subclades of R1b-Z2103 too. An important group that needs more snp testing.

Farroukh
12-30-2013, 04:49 AM
Dear friends, thank you for kind words!


Avestan- Talysh language.
It is just a speculation. Talysh language is far from Avestan as other Iranian languages.


Do you have an STR profile for the Azeri G-P303?
Kitnum 161308, P303+, L140-, L694-, M278- (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Azerbaijan/default.aspx?section=yresults)


Could be some L227 and maybe some other subclades of R1b-Z2103 too. An important group that needs more snp testing.
Who among them could be possible candidate for L277+?

Joe B
12-30-2013, 05:38 AM
DYS392=14 sometimes indicates L277+. #74690 and #N3986 have STRs that are similar to the R1b-L277+ folks found in the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) under the _b2. R1b1a2a2b: L23+ Z2103+ Z2105+ L277+ group. The R1b-L584+ haplotypes have been running DYS393=13 or 12 so far.

Farroukh
12-30-2013, 05:52 AM
DYS392=14 sometimes indicates L277+
Do you recommend to move them in new group R1b1a2, Z2103+, candidates for L277+ ?

AJL
12-30-2013, 06:54 AM
Azeri R1b1a is R1b1a2-L584 and belongs to the same cluster.

Welcome Farroukh.

I think Joe is right that some will be Z2103 of other sorts but I am hoping in the end L584 will have a fair representation too -- I have a fair interest in that group because my father's mother's mother's father was R1b-L584, tracing to the Turkish/Syrian border area.

Also interesting R1a, kit E14910 is Z93+ but Z2124–, which probably means L657 (found in Arabs and the Persian Gulf area but also really widespread in South Asia), or even the rare Z93* or Z94*.

Also I there may be a chance the predicted I1 may in fact be some kind of F, which is not exactly common but has been found in both Iran and Armenians, so would not be quite unexpected in Azerbaijan. Since he has no confident prediction, you can ask the FTDNA help desk to do a free basic backbone analysis.

Humanist
12-30-2013, 07:46 AM
I think all of them (peoples of Azerbaijan, Armenia and border areas of Iran and Turkey) origin from ancient Urartu people.

Welcome to the forum, Farroukh.

Just a note that there are other possibilities, in my opinion, regarding ancient ancestral origins:

“Between a Rock and a Hard Place: Musasir, Kumme, Ukku and Šubria – the Buffer States between Assyria and Urartu (https://www.academia.edu/1236294/2012_Between_a_Rock_and_a_Hard_Place_Musasir_Kumme _Ukku_and_Subria_-_the_Buffer_States_between_Assyria_and_Urartu._In_ S._Kroll_et_al._ed._Urartu-Bianili._Acta_Iranica_51_Leuven_2012_243-264).” In S. Kroll et al. (ed.), Urartu-Bianili. Acta Iranica 51 (Leuven 2012) 243-264.
Karen Radner

Fig. 17.01

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/fig_radner.jpg

Farroukh
12-30-2013, 09:51 AM
Dear AJL, thanks for your opinion.

Also interesting R1a, kit E14910 is Z93+ but Z2124–, which probably means L657 (found in Arabs and the Persian Gulf area but also really widespread in South Asia), or even the rare Z93* or Z94*.
He origins from Shahsevan tribe (http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/shahsevan). Perhaps, he is L657+, but first I will test him for Z94.


Also I there may be a chance the predicted I1 may in fact be some kind of F, which is not exactly common but has been found in both Iran and Armenians, so would not be quite unexpected in Azerbaijan. Since he has no confident prediction, you can ask the FTDNA help desk to do a free basic backbone analysis.
This haplotype is extremely close to Scandinavian I1-P109, therefore he was mentioned as "Viking heritage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_expeditions_of_the_Rus%27)". But you are right, SNP test should be ordered.

AJL
12-30-2013, 05:11 PM
This haplotype is extremely close to Scandinavian I1-P109, therefore he was mentioned as "Viking heritage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_expeditions_of_the_Rus%27)". But you are right, SNP test should be ordered.

If he is I1 it may be through ancient Varangian influence (you can see their trade route in this map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangians) went right to Baku).

Silesian
12-30-2013, 05:54 PM
The so called borders in the Near East are fake borders that were drawn after the WW1 and WW2. Those borders are artificial and don’t correspondent with ethno-linguistical, ethno-social and cultural reality on the ground.

In reality Kurdistan borders mostly Georgia (Laz region! ) and Armenia in north.

Were most of Kurds in Kurdistani portion of Azerbaijan Êzidî; and were they deported to Khazakstan under the purges ?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Red_kurdistan_1930.png

parasar
12-30-2013, 06:13 PM
...

Also interesting R1a, kit E14910 is Z93+ but Z2124–, which probably means L657 (found in Arabs and the Persian Gulf area but also really widespread in South Asia), or even the rare Z93* or Z94*.

...

AJL,

I doubt that sample is L657+ (based on his DYS458, DYS456 and CDY).

AJL
12-30-2013, 06:44 PM
AJL,

I doubt that sample is L657+ (based on his DYS458, DYS456 and CDY).

Thanks -- being Z93+ and both Z2124– and L657– would put this man in a very small group (seems to be a fairly ancient Steppe lineage).

the SUN child
12-30-2013, 06:46 PM
Were most of Kurds in Kurdistani portion of Azerbaijan Êzidî; and were they deported to Khazakstan under the purges ?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Red_kurdistan_1930.png
Kurds in Azerbaijan are Muslim (Sunni) that why they were so easily assimilated into the Azeri nation.
Since 10th century at the times of a Kurdish dynasty of Shaddadids, who ruled over Azeri and Armenian lands until the Soviet era there were continuously migration waves of ethnic Kurds into Azeri lands. So there was a continuously gene flow of Kurdish DNA into Azerbaijan. Kurdish tribes in Azerbaijan formed tribal unions with Azeris and intermarried with them. As time went by they forget Kurdish and started to speak Turkic instead. That's how Kurds were almost totally assimilated. Also during of the Soviet era many of them were deported to Central Asia. But there're still some Kurdish communities left in Azerbaijan and in Trans Caucasia in general, but they are under threat of being whipped out and assimilated.

Azeri DNA is for a huge part influenced by Kurdish geneflow.

That's how modern Turkish government tries to assimilated ethnic Kurds in Northern Kurdistan and Persian government tries to assimilate ethnic Kurds in Persia. By destorying Kurdish culture and language


Btw, before the Turkification of Azeri’s and before they started to speak Turkic, natives of Azerbaijan were also Iranic and very - very close to the Kurds.

Silesian
12-30-2013, 06:58 PM
Yazidi Kurds living in the Caucasus [Armenia and Georgia] come from, Azerbiajan?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yezidi

the SUN child
12-30-2013, 07:13 PM
Yazidi Kurds living in the Caucasus [Armenia and Georgia] come from, Azerbiajan?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YezidiI'm a Kurd Ezdi born in Georgia, also my parents and most of their parents were born in Georgia. But their great grandparents where born in Armenia. Kurds Ezdi that live in Georgia came from Armenia.
Most of the Kurds Ezdi that live in the Caucasus fled the Islamic Ottoman Empire 100-150 years ago into the Russian empire. At that time, Armenia and Georgia were part of the (Christian) Russian Empire.
Most of Kurds Ezdi in Caucasus are originally from Northern Kurdistan (Eastern Turkey). But there're some Kurds Ezdi that are originally from Southwest Kurdistan. The ancestors of my mother are from North Kurdistan, also my father is on his mother's side from Northern Kurdistan. But my paternal lineage (tribe/clan) is from Southwest Kurdistan (border between North Iraq and Northeast Syria).

Silesian
12-30-2013, 07:32 PM
I'm a Kurd Ezdi born in Georgia, also my parents and most of their parents were born in Georgia. But their great grandparents where born in Armenia. Kurds Ezdi that live in Georgia came from Armenia.
Most of the Kurds Ezdi that live in the Caucasus fled the Islamic Ottoman Empire 100-150 years ago into the Russian empire. At that time, Armenia and Georgia were part of the (Christian) Russian Empire.
Most of Kurds Ezdi in Caucasus are originally from Northern Kurdistan (Eastern Turkey). But there're some Kurds Ezdi that are originally from Southwest Kurdistan. The ancestors of my mother are from North Kurdistan, also my father is on his mother's side from Northern Kurdistan. But my paternal lineage (tribe/clan) is from Southwest Kurdistan (border between North Iraq and Northeast Syria).

Is Iranica Encyclopedia accurate; Western Azerbaijan Kurdish tribes?
KURDISH TRIBES IN PERSIA
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/kurdish-tribes

Humanist
12-30-2013, 08:19 PM
Guys. This thread is about Azeri Y-DNA. Not Yezidism, peacocks, etc.

Please continue your discussion about Yezidism here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1799-Yezidism).

the SUN child
12-30-2013, 08:24 PM
Is Iranica Encyclopedia accurate; Western Azerbaijan Kurdish tribes?
KURDISH TRIBES IN PERSIA
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/kurdish-tribesI don't know how accurate that list is about the location of Kurdish tribes in Azeri lands, but what I can say is that list is not complete, because a clan / tribe to which I do belong is not mentioned in there. Also the list is only mentioning the biggest tribes.

Also most of what they call ‘Western Azerbaijan’ is actually ‘Eastern Kurdistan’ (Iranian Kurdistan).

Farroukh
12-31-2013, 04:00 AM
the SUN child, my maternal grandfather was born in Nakhichevan and he speaks 4 languages: Azeri-Turkish, Armenian, Russian. Also he speaks other language with his friend from Aghjabadi that we do not recognize (all I know that "father" means "bavu"). He never told about his real origin (he was as Azeri in his Soviet passport), but I think he was Kurmanji.

You can see him in Kurdish project too.

Farroukh
08-23-2014, 04:36 AM
Central Asian heritage of Azerbaijan:

C3, F180+, "Çepni" cluster
L1b, M317+, L656+, "Cavanşirli" cluster
N1b, P43+, "Ayrım" cluster
O3a1c, IMS-JST002611+, "Zülqədər/Şəmsəddinli" cluster
R1a, Z93+, "Şahsevən" cluster
R1b1a1, candidates for M73+, "Qara Qıpçaq" cluster

Is L1b-L656 typical for Central Asian tribes? Or is it old Anatolian branch?

Caspian
11-27-2014, 04:30 PM
Y-DNA haplogroup frequency of Iranian Azeris.

http://i.imgur.com/eogfWLi.png

n=104

J2 = 21 (20x J2a, 1x J2b)
R1a1a = 18
R1b1a2 = 17
G = 10 (9x G2a, 1x G1a)
E = 9 (6x E-M34 E1b1b1b2a1, 3x E-V13 E1b1b1a1b1a )
J1 = 8 (7x J1c3 aka J1a2 Dys388>=15, 1x J1a3 J-Z1842 Dys388<14)
T= 6
L= 5 (2x L-M317, 2x L-M357, 1x L*)
R2a= 4
Q= 3 ( 1x Q1b1, 1x Q1a2, 1x Q1a3)
N= 1
C3= 1
F= 1

Haplogroup results of Iranian Azeris and related to Iranian Azeris (without Azeris from Republic) are from Grugni et al. 2012 (West Azerbaijan province/Iran), Di Cristoforo et al a.k.a. Afghan Mega Paper (East Azerbaijan province/Iran), FTDNA Iran DNA project and another individual results from FTDNA, 23andMe and Gedmatch.

More than 50% of Iranian Azeris belong to J2, R1a1a and R1b1a2.

Erik
11-27-2014, 05:44 PM
My Y-DNA is second most common in Azerbaijan

Caspian
11-27-2014, 09:53 PM
Central Asian heritage of Azerbaijan:

C3, F180+, "Çepni" cluster
L1b, M317+, L656+, "Cavanşirli" cluster
N1b, P43+, "Ayrım" cluster
O3a1c, IMS-JST002611+, "Zülqədər/Şəmsəddinli" cluster
R1a, Z93+, "Şahsevən" cluster
R1b1a1, candidates for M73+, "Qara Qıpçaq" cluster

Is L1b-L656 typical for Central Asian tribes? Or is it old Anatolian branch?

Akper, I think L-M317 is ancient Mesopotamian (Sumer/Elam/Babylonian etc.) branch. According to L's project administrator Gareth Hanson both haplogroup L and T origin in Iraq/Iran region.

European L-M317 (generally M349 branch in South and Central Europe) like Phoenician origin. I don't know origin of Eastern Anatolian and Caucasian L-M317 but I have some theroies about it. This cluster is ~2500-3000 years old and this is a mysterious sub-branch.

L-M317 generally found in Laz, Hemshin Armenian, Hay-Roums, Pontic Greeks, Central Anatolian and North-Eastern Turks from Turkey.
Generally found in Mingrelian, Svan and Abkhaz population from Georgia (like Colchis region)
Generally found in Mountain Jews, Avar, Balkar, Azov Greeks and Chechen population from Caucasus.
Found in Zoroastrian (Parsis) and Qashqai population from Iran (There is a Qashqai member belong to L-M317 in this forum)
Found in Balochi, NorthWest Iranian Language speaking population from Pakistan
Found in Shiite Arabs/Bedouin tribes from South Iraq.
Found in Volga Tatars from Russia.
et al...

L-M317 was found 13% in Parsi, Iranian origin Zoroastrian population of Pakistan in this paper (http://prr.hec.gov.pk/Chapters/1026S-4.pdf). Also was found (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Iv9nzcVwtgA/TzwQmmVXF9I/AAAAAAAAAvo/cQhj-uazNIQ/s1600/3.jpg)Greeks from near the Azov Sea and Crimea.
http://www.azovgreeks.com/gendb/ag_library_XML.cfm?articleId=293

According to Yunusbayev et al. 2011 paper L-M317 20% found in Mountain Jews from Dagestan, ~10% found in Avars from Dagestan, ~5% found in Abkhazians and a few found in Chechen, Abazins and Adyghe populations. So, L-M317 most found in Dagestan in this paper.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3F6BqRJ6xl0/TnDt35U9quI/AAAAAAAAEHs/jbFjkOzRV5o/s1600/caucasus-ychrom.png

L-M317 also 5,3% found in Balkar population in Battaglia et al. 2008 paper.

And in addition this is (http://i.imgur.com/Zlg9Yqu.png) heat map and migration roads of L-M317 from Geno 2.0 page. (Like Iran origin)

My ancestral origins (http://i.imgur.com/gvMGjiH.png) page from FTDNA.

I have two exact, twelve 1 step matches at FTDNA. (There isn't any matches in my 37 markers)

My two exact matches from South Iraq, they are Shiite Arabs and they belong to Bani Assad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bani_Assad) branch of Banu Kinanah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Kinanah) Bedouin tribe.

Three 1 step matches from Georgia (all Mingrelian from Samagrelo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samegrelo-Zemo_Svaneti))
Four 1 step matches from Turkey ( one Laz, one Hemshin, one Turkish from Izmir/Aegean Region, one Turkish from Black Sea Region)
Two 1 step matches from Russia (all Chechen)
1 step match from Iraq (Shiite Arab from South Iraq)
1 step match from Bulgaria (from Dobrich Province (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dobrich_Province) side of Black Sea) Maybe he is Balkan Turkish origin. Muslims are 20% of this province population according to 2001 census.
1 step match from Greece (Pontic Greek origin)

Probably, L-M317 was a piece of ancient Middle Eastern civilizations (Ubaid culture, Sumer, Elam etc.) during prehistoric period and it's origin like near the Persian Gulf. I have some theories to continue.

Firstly, L-M317 may have expanded to Kura-Araxes horizon and Maykop Culture with R1b1a2 from Middle East. Because can be seen ancient Middle Eastern (Sumer) influence (http://dienekes.blogspot.com.tr/2013/05/uruk-migrants-in-caucasus.html) in the Kura Araxes and Maykop culture. After that, L-M317 may have been divided to Indo-European, Kartvelian, Hurro-Urartian and North Eastern Caucasus language families in the Kura Araxes horizon (similar with R1b1a2). A part of L-M317 may have expanded to Black Sea ports from Colchis (or Crimea) region during the Greek colonization period. Can be seen the relationship between L-M317 and Greek colonization in the Black Sea.

Secondly, maybe a part of L-M317 was piece of Iranians in the Middle East during the Median or Achaemenid period. Anatolian and Caucasian L-M317s may have been result of Persian conquest in the Caucasus and Anatolia. I know kings of Pontus, some Armenian, Georgian and Caucasian Albanian dynasties were Iranian origin. After that L-M317 may have expanded to Black Sea ports with Greek colonization.

Connection with the Cimmerians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians#mediaviewer/File:Urartu_715_713-en.svg), Scytho-Sarmatians, Alans, connection with the Iranian merchants of Silk Road and connection with the Muslim Arab conquest in the Caucasus and Armenia may be another theroies for Post-Kura Araxes and Post-Maykop period.

jesus
11-27-2014, 10:04 PM
Akper, I think L-M317 is ancient Mesopotamian (Sumer/Elam/Babylonian etc.) branch. According to L's project administrator Gareth Hanson both haplogroup L and T origin in Iraq/Iran region.

European L-M317 (generally M349 branch in South and Central Europe) like Phoenician origin. I don't know origin of Eastern Anatolian and Caucasian L-M317 but I have some theroies about it. This cluster is ~2500-3000 years old and this is a mysterious sub-branch.

L-M317 generally found in Laz, Hemshin Armenian, Hay-Roums, Pontic Greeks, Central Anatolian and North-Eastern Turks from Turkey.
Generally found in Mingrelian, Svan and Abkhaz population from Georgia (like Colchis region)
Generally found in Mountain Jews, Avar, Balkar, Azov Greeks and Chechen population from Caucasus.
Found in Zoroastrian (Parsis) and Qashqai population from Iran (There is a Qashqai member belong to L-M317 in this forum)
Found in Balochi, NorthWest Iranian Language speaking population from Pakistan
Found in Shiite Arabs/Bedouin tribes from South Iraq.
Found in Volga Tatars from Russia.
et al...

L-M317 was found 13% in Parsi, Iranian origin Zoroastrian population of Pakistan in this paper (http://prr.hec.gov.pk/Chapters/1026S-4.pdf). Also was found (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Iv9nzcVwtgA/TzwQmmVXF9I/AAAAAAAAAvo/cQhj-uazNIQ/s1600/3.jpg)Greeks from near the Azov Sea and Crimea.
http://www.azovgreeks.com/gendb/ag_library_XML.cfm?articleId=293

According to Yunusbayev et al. 2011 paper L-M317 20% found in Mountain Jews from Dagestan, ~10% found in Avars from Dagestan, ~5% found in Abkhazians and a few found in Chechen, Abazins and Adyghe populations. So, L-M317 most found in Dagestan in this paper.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3F6BqRJ6xl0/TnDt35U9quI/AAAAAAAAEHs/jbFjkOzRV5o/s1600/caucasus-ychrom.png

L-M317 also 5,3% found in Balkar population in Battaglia et al. 2008 paper.

And in addition this is (http://i.imgur.com/Zlg9Yqu.png) heat map and migration roads of L-M317 from Geno 2.0 page. (Like Iran origin)

My ancestral origins (http://i.imgur.com/gvMGjiH.png) page from FTDNA.

I have two exact, twelve 1 step matches at FTDNA.

My two exact matches from South Iraq, they are Shiite Arabs and they belong to Bani Assad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bani_Assad) branch of Banu Kinanah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Kinanah) Bedouin tribe.

Three 1 step matches from Georgia (all Mingrelian from Samagrelo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samegrelo-Zemo_Svaneti))
Four 1 step matches from Turkey ( one Laz, one Hemshin, one Turkish from Izmir/Aegean Region, one Turkish from Black Sea Region)
Two 1 step matches from Russia (all Chechen)
1 step match from Iraq (Shiite Arab from South Iraq)
1 step match from Bulgaria (from Dobrich Province (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dobrich_Province) side of Black Sea) Maybe he is Balkan Turkish origin. Muslims are 20% of this province population according to 2001 census.
1 step match from Greece (Pontic Greek origin)

Probably, L-M317 was a piece of ancient Middle Eastern civilizations (Ubaid culture, Sumer, Elam etc.) during prehistoric period and it's origin like near the Persian Gulf. I have some theories to continue.

Firstly, L-M317 may have expanded to Kura-Araxes horizon and Maykop Culture with R1b1a2 from Middle East. Because can be seen ancient Middle Eastern (Sumer) influence (http://dienekes.blogspot.com.tr/2013/05/uruk-migrants-in-caucasus.html) in the Kura Araxes and Maykop culture. After that, L-M317 may have been divided to Indo-European, Kartvelian, Hurro-Urartian and North Eastern Caucasus language families in the Kura Araxes horizon (similar with R1b1a2). A part of L-M317 may have expanded to Black Sea ports from Colchis (or Crimea) region during the Greek colonization period. Can be seen the relationship between L-M317 and Greek colonization in the Black Sea.

Secondly, maybe a part of L-M317 was piece of Iranians in the Middle East during the Median or Achaemenid period. Anatolian and Caucasian L-M317s may have been result of Persian conquest in the Caucasus and Anatolia. I know kings of Pontus, some Armenian, Georgian and Caucasian Albanian dynasties were Iranian origin. After that L-M317 may have expanded to Black Sea ports with Greek colonization.

Connection with the Cimmerians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians#mediaviewer/File:Urartu_715_713-en.svg), Scytho-Sarmatians, Alans, connection with the Iranian merchants of Silk Road and connection with the Muslim Arab conquest in the Caucasus and Armenia may be another theroies for Post-Kura Araxes and Post-Maykop period.

This map is helpful but I don't think it's accurate enough because there was no L2 found in india. There is an Albanian member in the Apricity an an Afghan Tajik with L2.
http://gentis.ru/img/y/M317.gif

J Man
11-27-2014, 10:14 PM
My Y-DNA is second most common in Azerbaijan

You are J2a correct?

Erik
11-27-2014, 10:44 PM
You are J2a correct?

I believe so

Caspian
11-27-2014, 10:49 PM
This map is helpful but I don't think it's accurate enough because there was no L2 found in india. There is an Albanian member in the Apricity an an Afghan Tajik with L2.
http://gentis.ru/img/y/M317.gif

I don't have any idea about the map and I don't agree. But L-M317 (and M349 branch) may be found at high frequency in the populations of port towns and seasides (Persian Gulf, Gulf of Oman, sides of Black Sea, Mediterranean Sea and Caspian sea) due to the connection with the Silk Road traders and Phoenicians.

http://www.chinatouristmaps.com/assets/images/travelmapfg/Topographic-Map-of-Silk-Road.jpg

Yes, L-M317 wasn't found in Dravidian speakers. L-M27 found in Dravidian speakers. Especially L-M27 may have been the founder of the Indus Valley civilization. Even so all of L branches origin in Mesopotamia or Iran.

Haplogroup L page from AncestryDNA. (http://i.imgur.com/pF6hJKj.jpg)

L-M317 is western and northern branch of L. (M349 is European branch of L-M317)
L-M27 is eastern and southern branch of L.
L-M357 is central and eastern branch of L.

All of branches only found in Middle East.

It page confirms me.

jesus
11-27-2014, 10:54 PM
I don't have any idea about the map and I don't agree. But L-M317 (and M349 branch) may be found at high frequency in the populations of port towns and seasides (Persian Gulf, Gulf of Oman, sides of Black Sea, Mediterranean Sea and Caspian sea) due to the connection with the Silk Road traders and Phoenicians.

http://www.chinatouristmaps.com/assets/images/travelmapfg/Topographic-Map-of-Silk-Road.jpg

Yes, L-M317 wasn't found in Dravidian speakers. L-M27 found in Dravidian speakers. Especially L-M27 may have been the founder of the Indus Valley civilization. Even so all of L branches origin in Mesopotamia or Iran.

Haplogroup L page from AncestryDNA. (http://i.imgur.com/pF6hJKj.jpg)

L-M317 is western and northern branch of L. (M349 is European branch of L-M317)
L-M27 is eastern and southern branch of L.
L-M357 is central and eastern branch of L.

All of branches only found Middle East.

It page confirms me.

I had hunch that L originated in South eastern Iran or eastern Iran ( Khorasan ), and this may apply haplogroup L itself not just L2. This Data now confirms it to me, thanks!

Rukha
11-27-2014, 11:03 PM
I don't have any idea about the map and I don't agree. But L-M317 (and M349 branch) may be found at high frequency in the populations of port towns and seasides (Persian Gulf, Gulf of Oman, sides of Black Sea, Mediterranean Sea and Caspian sea) due to the connection with the Silk Road traders and Phoenicians.

http://www.chinatouristmaps.com/assets/images/travelmapfg/Topographic-Map-of-Silk-Road.jpg

Yes, L-M317 wasn't found in Dravidian speakers. L-M27 found in Dravidian speakers. Especially L-M27 may have been the founder of the Indus Valley civilization. Even so all of L branches origin in Mesopotamia or Iran.

Haplogroup L page from AncestryDNA. (http://i.imgur.com/pF6hJKj.jpg)

L-M317 is western and northern branch of L. (M349 is European branch of L-M317)
L-M27 is eastern and southern branch of L.
L-M357 is central and eastern branch of L.

All of branches only found in Middle East.

It page confirms me.

I am Tajik and my Y-DNA is L-M27/76. It seems to peak among Balochs.


L1a-M76 is most frequent in Balochi (20%), and is found at lower levels in Kyrgyz, Pashtun, Tajik, Uzbek and Turkmen populations.


http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0076748



Present Y chromosomes support the Persian ancestry of Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar and Eminent Navigator Zheng He

Chuan-Chao Wang et al.

Sayyid Ajjal is the ancestor of many Muslims in areas all across China. And one of his descendants is the famous Navigator of Ming Dynasty, Zheng He, who led the largest armada in the world of 15th century. The origin of Sayyid Ajjal's family remains unclear although many studies have been done on this topic of Muslim history. In this paper, we studied the Y chromosomes of his present descendants, and found they all have haplogroup L1a-M76, proving a southern Persian origin.


http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/10/a-persian-in-china-y-chromosome-of.html

J Man
11-28-2014, 01:14 AM
I believe so

Well J2 and J2a in particular seems to be the most common Y-DNA haplogroup among Azeris not the second most common.

Erik
11-28-2014, 03:08 AM
Well J2 and J2a in particular seems to be the most common Y-DNA haplogroup among Azeris not the second most common.

I meant that of the places that my subclade is most common in, Azerbaijan is #2.

J Man
11-28-2014, 03:09 AM
I meant that of the places that my subclade is most common in, Azerbaijan is #2.

Ahhh I see cool and interesting. :)

whatthefami
07-18-2015, 07:40 PM
Hello mate!


Do you have any new info on iranian azeri haplogroups.

they say the test that states iranian azeris is not valid because it just tested north iranians and not azeris.

paulgill
07-18-2015, 08:17 PM
I am Tajik and my Y-DNA is L-M27/76. It seems to peak among Balochs.




http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0076748

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/10/a-persian-in-china-y-chromosome-of.html

See the Samma Jamot of Sindh and Balochistan, most likely J2 from the Fertile Crescent and responsible for Mehrgarh and IVC along with the G found around that area. I also think that there might be little J-Z1853 of my kind among the Abro Tribe or the Kubra Baloch tribe.

L-M357 might be Elamite or just Iranic tribes and L1a probably have nothing to do with IVC.

Caspian
07-18-2015, 08:21 PM
Hello mate!


Do you have any new info on iranian azeri haplogroups.

they say the test that states iranian azeris is not valid because it just tested north iranians and not azeris.

Hello.
Welcome to the forum.
Grugni et al. 2012 is the most comprehensive and biggest study about Iranian Azeris until now. 63 Iranian Azeri males from West Azerbaijan province (probably Urmia) were used in that study. I also collected a total of 104 y-dna results from Grugni et al., from another small studies about Iranian Azeris and individual results from testing companies (FTDNA projects, 23andme) in November last year. You can see these results in the follwing chart.

http://i.imgur.com/eogfWLi.png

May I ask are you an Iranian Azeri?

DMXX
07-18-2015, 08:25 PM
Hello mate!


Do you have any new info on iranian azeri haplogroups.

they say the test that states iranian azeris is not valid because it just tested north iranians and not azeris.

Derenko et al. does include some Azeri Iranian mtDNA. I don't think that paper's been mentioned here.

You're also correct. The Reguiero et al. study that samples "North Iran" does not exclusively sample Azeri Iranians. It considers "North Iran" as all the territory above the Dasht-e-Kavir and Dasht-e-Lut deserts. Granted, much of this territory is Turkic speaking (e.g. Azeri, Turkmen), but it's a shaky assumption nonetheless.

Caspian
07-18-2015, 09:28 PM
Do you know your y-dna haplogroup?

My some great grandparents lived in Iran. My maternal grandpa is R1b1a2a2 Z2103+ L584+ and his father lived in Maku, West Azerbaijan province before 1918.
My mother has a 5th cousine who is a grandson of khans of Maku Khanate acording to her Family Finder results. That guy is R1b1a2a2 Z2103+ L584+ too. There are also a few members who have Iranian Azeri paternal lineage in the forum.

"noel" is R1b1a2
"NK19191" is R1a1a
"DMXX" is R2a

These members have Iranian Azeri paternal lineages. There is also a Qashqai guy from southwest Iran with nickname "jesus" and he is L1b. More than half of Iranian Azeris belong to J2 + R1b1a2 + R1a1a.

whatthefami
07-19-2015, 07:42 AM
thanks for your answer and yes i am. my mtdna = republic Azerbaijan and Y = Iranian Azerbaijan

whatthefami
07-19-2015, 07:45 AM
thanks!

whatthefami
07-19-2015, 07:48 AM
I haven't tested my self yet but will be doing it soon. My father's family is from tabriz but according to my father his grandpa was from a small village called ''siqinsara'' somewhere about 30-50 km away from tabriz.

DMXX
07-19-2015, 12:05 PM
Excellent. I'm the admin for the FTDNA Iranian DNA Project. Haven't had time to see to it the past few months, but will later on today. We have a separate "Azeri" sub-group there, so your sample (if you're testing with FTDNA) would be there among the others. Please PM for details (there's discounts if you order via the project).

I'd also recommend joining the Azeri DNA Project there when you test. They accept Azeri Iranians as well. The more coverage we all have for Azeri genetics, the better.

DMXX
07-19-2015, 09:03 PM
Just organised the data in the FTDNA Iranian DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Iranian%20Y-DNA/default.aspx?section=yresults).

Some of the recent Azeris added to the Iranian DNA Project don't look like they're Azeri Iranians (Republic-style surname conventions, e.g. -iyev, -ov). Conversely, some of the recent additions with quintessentially Iranian surnames will probably end up being Azeri Iranians (as I'm sure whatthefami will attest to, there isn't a particularly strong separation in surnames between Azeri Iranians and other Iranians, aside from the occasional -oğlu).

These are the results as they currently stand. Azeri Iranians, based on the limited number (a paltry ten samples), are predominantly Y-DNA R-M207 derived on the paternal line.



Azeri Iranians (n=10)
F*-M89 10% (1/10)
G*-M201 10% (1/10)
L1b-M317 10% (1/10)
R1a-M512 10% (1/10)
R1b-M269 20% (2/10)
R2a-M124 30% (3/10)
T-F2376 10% (1/10)


This is, in a limited sense, consistent with the outcome in Grugni et al. (http://vaedhya.blogspot.com/2012/07/interpreting-new-iranian-y-chromosomal.html), which found 36.5% of Azeri Iranians from Azarbaijan-e Gharbi (West Azerbaijan) province (n=63) to belong to various subclades of Y-DNA R-M207 (chiefly R1a1a-M17 and R1b1a2-M269).

I don't think we're in a position to interpret the project's Azeri Iranian results just yet. Highly doubt the R2a-M124 spike will be maintained with additional samples, given none(!) was found in Grugni et al. (my paternal side is from Azarbaijan-e Gharbi as well).

Will update the above, plus the mtDNA, once I've heard back from enough of the recent additions.

whatthefami
07-20-2015, 08:05 AM
So are the R1b azeris basically "armenians in denial " and the R1a azeris descendants of iranian (scythian/median) people? With Armenians I refer to the IE people of urartu. Any thoughts??

whatthefami
07-21-2015, 02:26 PM
Would be glad to hear your opinions! :)

DMXX
07-21-2015, 04:00 PM
So are the R1b azeris basically "armenians in denial "

Probably not Armenians specifically. The variety of R1b-M269 that is found in most West Asian samples (Z2103) was found in most of/all of the Yamnaya Samara samples. I haven't seen anything that suggests Z2103 in West Asia could be specifically assigned to the Armenians, who certainly are not a static genetic or linguistic quantity in the region. Until proven otherwise, the neutral position would assume it is mutual common ancestry (e.g. no Azeris being "Armenians in denial" or Armenians being "crouching IE's hidden Turkics").

One popular opinion since Haak et al. is the idea that West Asian R1b-Z2103 (in Armenians, Azeris or otherwise) descends from an early Indo-European movement from the north before 2000 B.C. (Anatolian speakers?). I recall MRCA calculations for West Asian R1b-Z2103 posted by Humanist months back which does support this idea. For the time being, this is the scenario I personally favour.

I do think a big chunk of R1b-M73 (different subclade from Z2103), however, was probably brought to the region through the numerous waves of Oghuz. The modern distribution of R1b-M73 is quite patchy and has a distinctly "Eurasian" spread (with one cluster appearing specifically in Europeans), but its' presence across all Turkic speaking regions does agree with the idea it could be broadly tied with the early Turks in West Asia. We'll need plenty of aDNA and deeper work on M73's phylogeny to see if this fits.



and the R1a azeris descendants of iranian (scythian/median) people?


Based on the aDNA, it's probably the case that most Y-DNA R1a1a-M17 found among Azeris in both the Republic and Iran are derived from the Indo-Iranians. R1a is quite a bit more frequent in Iran, where Azeri Iranians seem to have comparable frequencies with the various Kurds of the region.

I suspect a thin layer of Azeri Iranian R1a stems from the preceding migration of Indo-Aryans (correlated with the West Iranian Grey Ware culture, producing the Mitanni). Most of it in Iranian Azeris is probably from the same waves of Iron Age West Iranic tribes that contributed it in Kurds and other Iranians.

Given the ubiquitous presence of R1a among modern Turkic speakers, I do think a minority of Azeri R1a would be attributed to the Oghuz. By the time they arrived, the population density in Iran especially was probably too great for a significant contribution to be made. From my understanding of the historical records, most of the Medieval "Turkmen" (as they were called) moved to around the Baku depression after arriving in northern Iran as the rugged mountainous environs of Iranian Azerbaijan weren't conducive to nomadic pastoralism. The Republic of Azerbaijan, however, largely was (and is). Based on this, I also suspect a larger proportion of Republic Azeri R1a was brought by the Oghuz than was the case in Iran.

Just my opinion here. I don't think anyone is in a position to assert any particular viewpoint given how little relevant data we have.

Joe B
07-21-2015, 06:13 PM
So are the R1b azeris basically "armenians in denial "...........Welcome to the forum whatthefami. As one of the R1b haplogroup administrators that must navigate the political sensitivities of that part of the world, characterizing any group, religion, nation or ethnicity as being "in denial" is not helpful. Actually, you will find that scientific pursuit and the wonderment of discovery actually unites our various R1b folks
As DMXX indicated, current data is suggesting that R1b-Z2103 and the downstream branches of L584, L277, CTS7763, Z2109 and CTS7822 were endemic to the Greater Caucasus well before people thought of themselves as Armenians or Azerbaijanis. We clearly need more precise R1b data from the south Caspian Sea area of Iran to compliment the data we have from the Circum-Pontic region
Ancient R1b samples Haplogroup Assignments is a phylogenetic tree worth looking at. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ht-3-5new/about/background

vettor
07-21-2015, 06:48 PM
Just organised the data in the FTDNA Iranian DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Iranian%20Y-DNA/default.aspx?section=yresults).

Some of the recent Azeris added to the Iranian DNA Project don't look like they're Azeri Iranians (Republic-style surname conventions, e.g. -iyev, -ov). Conversely, some of the recent additions with quintessentially Iranian surnames will probably end up being Azeri Iranians (as I'm sure whatthefami will attest to, there isn't a particularly strong separation in surnames between Azeri Iranians and other Iranians, aside from the occasional -oğlu).

These are the results as they currently stand. Azeri Iranians, based on the limited number (a paltry ten samples), are predominantly Y-DNA R-M207 derived on the paternal line.



Azeri Iranians (n=10)
F*-M89 10% (1/10)
G*-M201 10% (1/10)
L1b-M317 10% (1/10)
R1a-M512 10% (1/10)
R1b-M269 20% (2/10)
R2a-M124 30% (3/10)
T-F2376 10% (1/10)


This is, in a limited sense, consistent with the outcome in Grugni et al. (http://vaedhya.blogspot.com/2012/07/interpreting-new-iranian-y-chromosomal.html), which found 36.5% of Azeri Iranians from Azarbaijan-e Gharbi (West Azerbaijan) province (n=63) to belong to various subclades of Y-DNA R-M207 (chiefly R1a1a-M17 and R1b1a2-M269).

I don't think we're in a position to interpret the project's Azeri Iranian results just yet. Highly doubt the R2a-M124 spike will be maintained with additional samples, given none(!) was found in Grugni et al. (my paternal side is from Azarbaijan-e Gharbi as well).

Will update the above, plus the mtDNA, once I've heard back from enough of the recent additions.

In regards to T-F2376, the only ones I found apart from this azeri you have is an Armenian sample and another who is a Turk from Elbistan

whatthefami
07-21-2015, 08:49 PM
Thank you for sharing your thoughts! I didn't mean to offend anyone (if someone did) Armenians are just as great nation as Azeris and all the other folks around the world! :)

newtoboard
07-22-2015, 12:21 AM
Probably not Armenians specifically. The variety of R1b-M269 that is found in most West Asian samples (Z2103) was found in most of/all of the Yamnaya Samara samples. I haven't seen anything that suggests Z2103 in West Asia could be specifically assigned to the Armenians, who certainly are not a static genetic or linguistic quantity in the region. Until proven otherwise, the neutral position would assume it is mutual common ancestry (e.g. no Azeris being "Armenians in denial" or Armenians being "crouching IE's hidden Turkics").

One popular opinion since Haak et al. is the idea that West Asian R1b-Z2103 (in Armenians, Azeris or otherwise) descends from an early Indo-European movement from the north before 2000 B.C. (Anatolian speakers?). I recall MRCA calculations for West Asian R1b-Z2103 posted by Humanist months back which does support this idea. For the time being, this is the scenario I personally favour.

I do think a big chunk of R1b-M73 (different subclade from Z2103), however, was probably brought to the region through the numerous waves of Oghuz. The modern distribution of R1b-M73 is quite patchy and has a distinctly "Eurasian" spread (with one cluster appearing specifically in Europeans), but its' presence across all Turkic speaking regions does agree with the idea it could be broadly tied with the early Turks in West Asia. We'll need plenty of aDNA and deeper work on M73's phylogeny to see if this fits.



Based on the aDNA, it's probably the case that most Y-DNA R1a1a-M17 found among Azeris in both the Republic and Iran are derived from the Indo-Iranians. R1a is quite a bit more frequent in Iran, where Azeri Iranians seem to have comparable frequencies with the various Kurds of the region.

I suspect a thin layer of Azeri Iranian R1a stems from the preceding migration of Indo-Aryans (correlated with the West Iranian Grey Ware culture, producing the Mitanni). Most of it in Iranian Azeris is probably from the same waves of Iron Age West Iranic tribes that contributed it in Kurds and other Iranians.

Given the ubiquitous presence of R1a among modern Turkic speakers, I do think a minority of Azeri R1a would be attributed to the Oghuz. By the time they arrived, the population density in Iran especially was probably too great for a significant contribution to be made. From my understanding of the historical records, most of the Medieval "Turkmen" (as they were called) moved to around the Baku depression after arriving in northern Iran as the rugged mountainous environs of Iranian Azerbaijan weren't conducive to nomadic pastoralism. The Republic of Azerbaijan, however, largely was (and is). Based on this, I also suspect a larger proportion of Republic Azeri R1a was brought by the Oghuz than was the case in Iran.

Just my opinion here. I don't think anyone is in a position to assert any particular viewpoint given how little relevant data we have.

Yea but Anatolian speakers in the Caucasus, Iran and Central Asia/Tarim makes little sense?

More likely is

1. Afanasievo mediated through Parthians/Kushans
2. A R1b Srubnaya group that adopted Indo-Iranian from Abashevo-Sintashta-Andronovo
3. A mixed R1a-R1b Srubnaya group that adopted Indo-Iranian from Abashevo-Sintashta-Andronovo

Intresting about a Mittani layer. Do we see L657+ peak where they had their lands?

Also where is the L657+ at?

I think parsar and others have said none of our Z93+/Z93+ likely samples could be L657+.

Is it associated with something else besides Andronovo or did it leave Europe earlier? It formed about 4800 ybp (TMRCA 1000 years later) but that might be underestimated by up to 20% so where is it?

whatthefami
07-22-2015, 09:19 AM
What was the role of R2 in NW iran? They were also iranic right?

DMXX
07-22-2015, 12:14 PM
Yea but Anatolian speakers in the Caucasus, Iran and Central Asia/Tarim makes little sense?


Why does it make little sense? The discussion is so open-ended given the fragments of data we currently have that one's intuitive "sense" won't agree with another person's.

There is a habit in the genealogy community of linking historically attested languages with modern uniparental markers. How can we be certain a steppe-derived movement from the north linked to the Anatolian IE branch didn't make a contribution to the southern Caucasus and Iran?

With this line of reasoning, are we to conclude the Cimmerians didn't exist or make a genetic contribution to the region, given they left no significant linguistic impact (very much unlike other steppe-derived groups)?

Also, what does the Tarim basin have anything to do with this? We don't have any Y-DNA directly from the Tarim (only adjacent regions).



More likely is

1. Afanasievo mediated through Parthians/Kushans


This is highly improbable. None of this is in line with recorded history. The Parthians and Kushans are not equivalents for starters. The "actual" Parthians (Pahlavanik) left their mark on Iran and Armenia only. The Kushans are typically linked to the Greater Yuezhi, and their connection with Afanasievo is very much debatable (if I recall correctly, I had at least one discussion with Coldmountains over the identification of the Yuezhi some months back here). Afanasievo has next to nothing to do with the Parthians.

Finally, in case this is the source of your confusion, the actual Parthians are unrelated to the Indo-Parthians.



2. A R1b Srubnaya group that adopted Indo-Iranian from Abashevo-Sintashta-Andronovo
3. A mixed R1a-R1b Srubnaya group that adopted Indo-Iranian from Abashevo-Sintashta-Andronovo


Possible, but we don't have any data from Abashevo and Y-DNA R1b hasn't been found in either Sintashta or Andronovo to confirm these ideas.



Intresting about a Mittani layer. Do we see L657+ peak where they had their lands?

Also where is the L657+ at?


Good questions. I an unaware whether or not academia and/or the genealogy community might have observed the strong geographical segregation of L657 in Asia towards the Indian Subcontinent. In the process, neglecting to check for any L657+ in the Iranian plateau or the Near-East.

It's also possible the early Indo-Aryan wave that reached the Iranian plateau by 1800-1600 B.C. didn't carry L657. All we need is to genotype enough Iranian aDNA from the West Iranian Grey Ware culture, find at least several confirmed R1a1a-M17, test for L657, then we'll have our answer.

I don't think modern DNA is especially useful at this point.



Is it associated with something else besides Andronovo or did it leave Europe earlier? It formed about 4800 ybp (TMRCA 1000 years later) but that might be underestimated by up to 20% so where is it?

I don't know what you're referring to here. Please reply back and quote the segment of my post you're addressing.

DMXX
07-22-2015, 12:34 PM
What was the role of R2 in NW iran? They were also iranic right?

The main division within R2a-M124 seems to be the L295 subclade. L295+ definitely has a non-Indo-European type distribution (it's much too old to be Indo-Iranian related anyway). L295- (basically all other possible subclades) is found mostly in West and South-Central Asia, as well as among various Jewish minorities in Asia and Europe.

The majority of Iranian R2a-M124, at present, appears to be L295-. I suspect some of it will end up being involved in at least one of the Indo-Iranian waves. Due to the absence of R2a-M124 (or indeed R2-M479 itself) in any of the Eurasian steppe samples, it's looking very likely that, should any variety of R2a-L295- end up having anything to do with any Indo-Aryans or Iranians, it was a secondary lineage (similar to Y-DNA I1 with the Germanic languages).

Y-DNA R2a-M124 has a very "deep" phylogeny, unlike R1b-M269 and R1a-M17. There isn't much sign of shallow rapid expansions, as we see with those two. However, the reduced frequency of R2a-M124 compared with those two, coupled with more interest in R1, is working against R2 enthusiasts, as we don't have anywhere near as many samples we need to have a better feel for this clade. We do see evidence of this among the Ashkenazi Jewish and Arab R2a-L295-'s, but I'm quite confident we'll find older examples of shallow region-wide expansions in the future with more data.

Summarised, odds are much of the R2a-M124 in Iran has nothing to do with any Indo-Iranian migrations, but there's a possibility some is. R2a-M124 seems to have a complicated distribution and (aside from the Ashkenazi Jewish or Gulf Arab R2a's) there isn't much sign yet of a shallow distribution in any branch. We desperately need more samples to properly flesh out the phylogeny.

whatthefami
07-28-2015, 10:12 AM
Nobody has ever heard about siqinsarah right? Does anyone know what it stands for?

Caspian
01-22-2016, 10:39 AM
I've collected y-dna results of Azerbaijanis from FTDNA projects, 23andme and various papers. I've crated a chart for Azerbaijanis, Northern Azerbaijanis and updated chart for Iranian Azerbaijanis. I think that this study contains the largest y-dna information about Azerbaijani people so far.

Sources:
- Nasidze et. al. 2004 (This paper contains the Northern Azerbaijani samples from the Republic of Azerbaijan)
- Grugni et. al. 2012 (This paper contains the Iranian Azerbaijani samples from West Azerbaijan Province (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Azerbaijan_Province))
- Di Cristofaro et. al. 2013 (This paper contains the Iranian Azerbaijani samples from East Azerbaijan Province (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Azerbaijan_Province))
- Karmin et. al. 2015 (This paper contains the Northern Azerbaijani samples from the Republic of Azerbaijan)
- FTDNA projects, 23andme, various forum members and gedmatch.


Y-DNA Haplogroup distribution of Azerbaijani people. N=228
http://i.imgur.com/gXpHxry.png

J2: 48
R1b: 37
J1: 34
R1a: 24
E1b: 17
G: 17
T: 10
L: 8
C3: 5
Q: 5
I2: 5
I1: 4
N: 4
R2: 5
H: 3
O3: 1
F: 1



Y-DNA Haplogroup distribution of Northern Azerbaijanis from the Azerbaijan, Turkey, Dagestan and Georgia.
http://i.imgur.com/Gmt9kLs.png

Y-DNA Haplogroup distribution of Iranian Azerbaijanis (Updated version of my November 2014 study)
http://i.imgur.com/8NmSabG.png

Afshar
01-22-2016, 07:50 PM
Do you also have info about their tribes?

nec3
01-26-2016, 12:44 AM
I'm a Kurd Ezdi born in Georgia, also my parents and most of their parents were born in Georgia. But their great grandparents where born in Armenia. Kurds Ezdi that live in Georgia came from Armenia.
Most of the Kurds Ezdi that live in the Caucasus fled the Islamic Ottoman Empire 100-150 years ago into the Russian empire. At that time, Armenia and Georgia were part of the (Christian) Russian Empire.
Most of Kurds Ezdi in Caucasus are originally from Northern Kurdistan (Eastern Turkey). But there're some Kurds Ezdi that are originally from Southwest Kurdistan. The ancestors of my mother are from North Kurdistan, also my father is on his mother's side from Northern Kurdistan. But my paternal lineage (tribe/clan) is from Southwest Kurdistan (border between North Iraq and Northeast Syria).

You have too many "kurdistan" there...

vatan
02-26-2016, 03:57 AM
I thought the azeris in azerbaijan are caucasian albanians?

Caspian
02-28-2016, 04:37 PM
Northern Azerbaijanis and Southern Azerbaijanis are clustered together genetically, but there are some differencies on Y-DNA and autosomal results of Azerbaijanis by regions. J2, R1b, J1 and R1a are most common y-dna haplogroups among Azerbaijanis. Especially, you can see difference on the distribution of J1 and R1a haplogroups among Northern Azerbaijanis and Iranian Azerbaijanis. Northern Azerbaijanis have more J1 and less R1a than Iranian Azerbaijanis while Iranian Azerbaijanis have more R1a and less J1. Distribution of J2 and R1b are similar among Northern Azerbaijanis and Iranian Azerbaijanis.

Haplogroup J1 is second common haplogroup among Northern Azerbaijanis and third common haplogroup among whole Azerbaijanis. Azerbaijan has very high genetic diversity of haplogroup J1. This haplogroup already has greatest genetic diversity in Armenian Highlands (Eastern parts of Turkey), Northern Mesopotamia, Georgia and Azerbaijan. Probably, between these regions was homeland of J1. J1 was possible one of the oldest inhabitants of Azerbaijan with J2. This haplogroup is found approximately 20% among Northern Azerbaijanis and 8% among Iranian Azerbaijanis. Whole Azerbaijanis have 15% haplgoroup J1. Azerbaijani J1 samples generally belong to same subclades with Armenians, Avars, Lezgins, Tabasarans, Georgians or Turks. Azerbaijanis from some specific mountainous regions of Northern and Western(Qarabağ) parts of Northern Azerbaijan, such as Zaqatala (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaqatala_(city)),Balaken (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balak%C9%99n), Şaki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaki,_Azerbaijan), Oğuz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oghuz_(city)), Quba (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quba), Yevlax (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yevlakh), Qusar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qusar_(city)), Xaçmaz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khachmaz_(city)), Şamaxı (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamakhi), Ağsu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agsu_(city)) and Dağlıq Qarabağ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh), probably have more J1 than others. J1 is rising up to 30-35% in some of these regions perhaps. You can see the 2 main mountainous regions possible have high J1 frequencies of Northern Azerbaijan on the map below.
http://i.imgur.com/8j5ciNl.jpg

This is main haplogroup of highlander Northern Azerbaijanis and is a sign of Caucasian heritage of Northern Azerbaijanis according to me. Proto-Caucasian tribes and Caucasian Albanians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania) were possible main baerers of this haplogroup in the Caucasus. J1 is also found at 67% among Avars, 58% among Lezgins and 49% among Tabasarans in Northern Caucasus according to Yunusbayev et al. 2011 (http://dienekes.blogspot.com.tr/2011/09/caucasus-revisited-yunusbayev-et-al.html). These peoples are also some of ethnic minorities in the Republic of Azerbaijan.

Haplogroup R1a is second common haplogroup among Iranian Azerbaijanis and found at 17-18%. This haplogroup has a close frequency with R1b among Iranian Azerbaijanis and these two haplogroups make up 34% of Iranian Azerbaijanis. Azerbaijani R1a samples generally belong to R1a-Z93 and R1b samples generally belong to R1b-Z2103. These 2 haplogroups also found together at significant percentages among some Iranic peoples, such as Persians, Kurds, Zazas, Lurs, Gilaki and Mazendaranis near the Iranian Azerbaijanis. R1a and R1b were Bronze/Iron Age lineages who came to Iran with Indo-European migrations. High frequencies of these haplogroups show us strong Indo-European Iranic heritages among Iranian Azerbaijanis. However, Central Asian Turkic peoples (Oghuzes) who settled in the Iran during Medieval Age might have had R1a and R1b at high frequencies, therefore I belive that some R1a and R1b of Azerbaijanis are Turkic lineages. I think Indo-European Manneans, Matienes and Medes of Azerbaijan; Achaemenidian, Sasanian and Parthian nobles of Persia and Turkic Oghuzes were baerers of these two haplogroups to Iranian Azerbaijanis.

As a result, I think Northern Azerbaijanis have a little more Caucasian heritage than Iranian Azerbaijanis and Iranian Azerbaijanis have more Iranic heritage than Northern Azerbaijanis.

Some Proto-Caucasian tribes, Caucasian Albanians, Armenians, Lezgins, Udins, Avars, Tabasarans, some Medieval Iranic peoples and Medieval Arabs who lived in Northern Azerbaijan before Turkification and Islamization played great roles with Turkic peoples (also Mongols) in the ethnogenesis of Northern Azerbaijanis.

Manneans, Matienes, Medes, Achaemenidians, Parthians, Sasanians, Assyrians and some Proto-Caucasian people of Iranian Azerbaijan before Indo-Europeanization who lived in Iranian Azerbaijan played great roles with Turkic peoples (also Mongols) in the ethnogenesis of Iranian Azerbaijanis.

J Man
02-28-2016, 06:17 PM
Northern Azerbaijanis and Southern Azerbaijanis are clustered together genetically, but there are some differencies on Y-DNA and autosomal results of Azerbaijanis by regions. J2, R1b, J1 and R1a are most common y-dna haplogroups among Azerbaijanis. Especially, you can see difference on the distribution of J1 and R1a haplogroups among Northern Azerbaijanis and Iranian Azerbaijanis. Northern Azerbaijanis have more J1 and less R1a than Iranian Azerbaijanis while Iranian Azerbaijanis have more R1a and less J1. Distribution of J2 and R1b are similar among Northern Azerbaijanis and Iranian Azerbaijanis.

Haplogroup J1 is second common haplogroup among Northern Azerbaijanis and third common haplogroup among whole Azerbaijanis. Azerbaijan has very high genetic diversity of haplogroup J1. This haplogroup already has greatest genetic diversity in Armenian Highlands (Eastern parts of Turkey), Northern Mesopotamia, Georgia and Azerbaijan. Probably, between these regions was homeland of J1. J1 was possible one of the oldest inhabitants of Azerbaijan with J2. This haplogroup is found approximately 20% among Northern Azerbaijanis and 8% among Iranian Azerbaijanis. Whole Azerbaijanis have 15% haplgoroup J1. Azerbaijani J1 samples generally belong to same subclades with Armenians, Avars, Lezgins, Tabasarans, Georgians or Turks. Azerbaijanis from some specific mountainous regions of Northern and Western(Qarabağ) parts of Northern Azerbaijan, such as Zaqatala (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaqatala_(city)),Balaken (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balak%C9%99n), Şaki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaki,_Azerbaijan), Oğuz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oghuz_(city)), Quba (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quba), Yevlax (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yevlakh), Qusar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qusar_(city)), Xaçmaz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khachmaz_(city)), Şamaxı (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamakhi), Ağsu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agsu_(city)) and Dağlıq Qarabağ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh), probably have more J1 than others. J1 is rising up to 30-35% in some of these regions perhaps. You can see the 2 main mountainous regions possible have high J1 frequencies of Northern Azerbaijan on the map below.
http://i.imgur.com/8j5ciNl.jpg

This is main haplogroup of highlander Northern Azerbaijanis and is a sign of Caucasian heritage of Northern Azerbaijanis according to me. Proto-Caucasian tribes and Caucasian Albanians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania) were possible main baerers of this haplogroup in the Caucasus. J1 is also found at 67% among Avars, 58% among Lezgins and 49% among Tabasarans in Northern Caucasus according to Yunusbayev et al. 2011 (http://dienekes.blogspot.com.tr/2011/09/caucasus-revisited-yunusbayev-et-al.html). These peoples are also some of ethnic minorities in the Republic of Azerbaijan.

Haplogroup R1a is second common haplogroup among Iranian Azerbaijanis and found at 17-18%. This haplogroup has a close frequency with R1b among Iranian Azerbaijanis and these two haplogroups make up 34% of Iranian Azerbaijanis. Azerbaijani R1a samples generally belong to R1a-Z93 and R1b samples generally belong to R1b-Z2103. These 2 haplogroups also found together at significant percentages among some Iranic peoples, such as Persians, Kurds, Zazas, Lurs, Gilaki and Mazendaranis near the Iranian Azerbaijanis. R1a and R1b were Bronze/Iron Age lineages who came to Iran with Indo-European migrations. High frequencies of these haplogroups show us strong Indo-European Iranic heritages among Iranian Azerbaijanis. However, Central Asian Turkic peoples (Oghuzes) who settled in the Iran during Medieval Age might have had R1a and R1b at high frequencies, therefore I belive that some R1a and R1b of Azerbaijanis are Turkic lineages. I think Indo-European Manneans, Matienes and Medes of Azerbaijan; Achaemenidian, Sasanian and Parthian nobles of Persia and Turkic Oghuzes were baerers of these two haplogroups to Iranian Azerbaijanis.

As a result, I think Northern Azerbaijanis have a little more Caucasian heritage than Iranian Azerbaijanis and Iranian Azerbaijanis have more Iranic heritage than Northern Azerbaijanis.

Some Proto-Caucasian tribes, Caucasian Albanians, Armenians, Lezgins, Udins, Avars, Tabasarans, some Medieval Iranic peoples and Medieval Arabs who lived in Northern Azerbaijan before Turkification and Islamization played great roles with Turkic peoples (also Mongols) in the ethnogenesis of Northern Azerbaijanis.

Manneans, Matienes, Medes, Achaemenidians, Parthians, Sasanians, Assyrians and some Proto-Caucasian people of Iranian Azerbaijan before Indo-Europeanization who lived in Iranian Azerbaijan played great roles with Turkic peoples (also Mongols) in the ethnogenesis of Iranian Azerbaijanis.

Is Y-DNA haplogroup J2 common among highlander Azerbaijanis as well?

vatan
02-28-2016, 07:58 PM
Northern Azerbaijanis and Southern Azerbaijanis are clustered together genetically, but there are some differencies on Y-DNA and autosomal results of Azerbaijanis by regions. J2, R1b, J1 and R1a are most common y-dna haplogroups among Azerbaijanis. Especially, you can see difference on the distribution of J1 and R1a haplogroups among Northern Azerbaijanis and Iranian Azerbaijanis. Northern Azerbaijanis have more J1 and less R1a than Iranian Azerbaijanis while Iranian Azerbaijanis have more R1a and less J1. Distribution of J2 and R1b are similar among Northern Azerbaijanis and Iranian Azerbaijanis.

Haplogroup J1 is second common haplogroup among Northern Azerbaijanis and third common haplogroup among whole Azerbaijanis. Azerbaijan has very high genetic diversity of haplogroup J1. This haplogroup already has greatest genetic diversity in Armenian Highlands (Eastern parts of Turkey), Northern Mesopotamia, Georgia and Azerbaijan. Probably, between these regions was homeland of J1. J1 was possible one of the oldest inhabitants of Azerbaijan with J2. This haplogroup is found approximately 20% among Northern Azerbaijanis and 8% among Iranian Azerbaijanis. Whole Azerbaijanis have 15% haplgoroup J1. Azerbaijani J1 samples generally belong to same subclades with Armenians, Avars, Lezgins, Tabasarans, Georgians or Turks. Azerbaijanis from some specific mountainous regions of Northern and Western(Qarabağ) parts of Northern Azerbaijan, such as Zaqatala (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaqatala_(city)),Balaken (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balak%C9%99n), Şaki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaki,_Azerbaijan), Oğuz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oghuz_(city)), Quba (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quba), Yevlax (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yevlakh), Qusar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qusar_(city)), Xaçmaz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khachmaz_(city)), Şamaxı (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamakhi), Ağsu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agsu_(city)) and Dağlıq Qarabağ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh), probably have more J1 than others. J1 is rising up to 30-35% in some of these regions perhaps. You can see the 2 main mountainous regions possible have high J1 frequencies of Northern Azerbaijan on the map below.
http://i.imgur.com/8j5ciNl.jpg

This is main haplogroup of highlander Northern Azerbaijanis and is a sign of Caucasian heritage of Northern Azerbaijanis according to me. Proto-Caucasian tribes and Caucasian Albanians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania) were possible main baerers of this haplogroup in the Caucasus. J1 is also found at 67% among Avars, 58% among Lezgins and 49% among Tabasarans in Northern Caucasus according to Yunusbayev et al. 2011 (http://dienekes.blogspot.com.tr/2011/09/caucasus-revisited-yunusbayev-et-al.html). These peoples are also some of ethnic minorities in the Republic of Azerbaijan.

Haplogroup R1a is second common haplogroup among Iranian Azerbaijanis and found at 17-18%. This haplogroup has a close frequency with R1b among Iranian Azerbaijanis and these two haplogroups make up 34% of Iranian Azerbaijanis. Azerbaijani R1a samples generally belong to R1a-Z93 and R1b samples generally belong to R1b-Z2103. These 2 haplogroups also found together at significant percentages among some Iranic peoples, such as Persians, Kurds, Zazas, Lurs, Gilaki and Mazendaranis near the Iranian Azerbaijanis. R1a and R1b were Bronze/Iron Age lineages who came to Iran with Indo-European migrations. High frequencies of these haplogroups show us strong Indo-European Iranic heritages among Iranian Azerbaijanis. However, Central Asian Turkic peoples (Oghuzes) who settled in the Iran during Medieval Age might have had R1a and R1b at high frequencies, therefore I belive that some R1a and R1b of Azerbaijanis are Turkic lineages. I think Indo-European Manneans, Matienes and Medes of Azerbaijan; Achaemenidian, Sasanian and Parthian nobles of Persia and Turkic Oghuzes were baerers of these two haplogroups to Iranian Azerbaijanis.

As a result, I think Northern Azerbaijanis have a little more Caucasian heritage than Iranian Azerbaijanis and Iranian Azerbaijanis have more Iranic heritage than Northern Azerbaijanis.

Some Proto-Caucasian tribes, Caucasian Albanians, Armenians, Lezgins, Udins, Avars, Tabasarans, some Medieval Iranic peoples and Medieval Arabs who lived in Northern Azerbaijan before Turkification and Islamization played great roles with Turkic peoples (also Mongols) in the ethnogenesis of Northern Azerbaijanis.

Manneans, Matienes, Medes, Achaemenidians, Parthians, Sasanians, Assyrians and some Proto-Caucasian people of Iranian Azerbaijan before Indo-Europeanization who lived in Iranian Azerbaijan played great roles with Turkic peoples (also Mongols) in the ethnogenesis of Iranian Azerbaijanis.


Man iranieh azari hastam az tehran :) khoshvakhtam

Caspian
03-01-2016, 11:46 PM
Is Y-DNA haplogroup J2 common among highlander Azerbaijanis as well?

J2 is a common haplogroup among all Azerbaijanis and in the all regions.

bebb
03-03-2016, 10:08 PM
Thanks

rafael
04-05-2016, 06:59 PM
Hi guys!


Ok so as we see HG J2, R1a, R1b & J1 are the main HG's among Azeris in Anatolia-Caucasus-Persia region. Now we also know that J2 & J1 are common haplogroups in the middle east and that R1b & R1a are associated with the Indo-Europeans and Indo-Iranian peoples. Also it is clear that some of R1a and R1b are linked to Central Asian Turkic speaking peoples.


Now the most common Idea is that Azeris both in Iran and Azerbaijan were turkified by language and that a new culture arose which was mostly influenced by Iranian and Turkic cultures. I'm cutting off the details because I don't want to go too into the ''before Iranian arrival and after turkification era'' . Let's just say things happened how they happened.


BUT is it not possible that the physical traits of those Oguz Turks wasn't Central Asian, in as that they were a separate branch, whose people didn't look Asian. That they'r physical traits were similar to todays Turks, Azeris and Iranians?. Of course there are Clear Central Asian linked haplogroups in above mentioned countries, such as N, Q, C & R1a/b, but is it not possible that people of Central asia were first turkified by Proto Turks who looked more like todays turks and azeris?

I know this all sounds odd because we have way old stones in Asia which have ancient turkic scripts on them and that majority of the Haplogroups that Azeris and Turks carry emerged in other side of the caspian sea. Also it would seem weird that those haplogroups were somehow there in that environment at that time.

It's still just so weird that a small group of people can make so big changes in a population that already had numerous ''civilizations''. On the other hand south americans speak spanish today so ehh :D

Could someone please share some knowledge on how the the turkification took place in practice and which stages did it have?

dp
04-05-2016, 09:19 PM
Thank you for sharing your thoughts! I didn't mean to offend anyone (if someone did) Armenians are just as great nation as Azeris and all the other folks around the world! :)
CA is closed so this seemed a post that fit the following sentiment:
Hope the "peace" holds.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/azerbaijan-armenia-cease-fire-over-nagorno-karabakh-1459861704
dp :-)

rafael
04-06-2016, 03:58 PM
from wikipedia


The Göktürk rulers originated from the Ashina clan, who were first attested to 439. The Book of Sui reports that in that year, on October 18, the Tuoba ruler Emperor Taiwu of Northern Wei overthrew Juqu Mujian of the Northern Liang in eastern Gansu,[12][13][14] whence 500 Ashina families fled northwest to the Rouran Khaganate in the vicinity of Gaochang.[6][15] Peter Benjamin Golden points out the possibility that the khaghans of the Turkic Khaganate, the Ashina, were themselves originally Indo-Europeans (possibly Iranian peoples) who later adopted the Turkic language but continued to use titles from their earlier Indo-European languages.[16] German Turkologist W.-E. Scharlipp points out that many common terms in Turkic are Iranian in origin.[17]



I find this very interesting.

Afshar
04-06-2016, 06:26 PM
Northern Azerbaijanis and Southern Azerbaijanis are clustered together genetically, but there are some differencies on Y-DNA and autosomal results of Azerbaijanis by regions. J2, R1b, J1 and R1a are most common y-dna haplogroups among Azerbaijanis. Especially, you can see difference on the distribution of J1 and R1a haplogroups among Northern Azerbaijanis and Iranian Azerbaijanis. Northern Azerbaijanis have more J1 and less R1a than Iranian Azerbaijanis while Iranian Azerbaijanis have more R1a and less J1. Distribution of J2 and R1b are similar among Northern Azerbaijanis and Iranian Azerbaijanis.

Haplogroup J1 is second common haplogroup among Northern Azerbaijanis and third common haplogroup among whole Azerbaijanis. Azerbaijan has very high genetic diversity of haplogroup J1. This haplogroup already has greatest genetic diversity in Armenian Highlands (Eastern parts of Turkey), Northern Mesopotamia, Georgia and Azerbaijan. Probably, between these regions was homeland of J1. J1 was possible one of the oldest inhabitants of Azerbaijan with J2. This haplogroup is found approximately 20% among Northern Azerbaijanis and 8% among Iranian Azerbaijanis. Whole Azerbaijanis have 15% haplgoroup J1. Azerbaijani J1 samples generally belong to same subclades with Armenians, Avars, Lezgins, Tabasarans, Georgians or Turks. Azerbaijanis from some specific mountainous regions of Northern and Western(Qarabağ) parts of Northern Azerbaijan, such as Zaqatala (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaqatala_(city)),Balaken (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balak%C9%99n), Şaki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaki,_Azerbaijan), Oğuz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oghuz_(city)), Quba (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quba), Yevlax (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yevlakh), Qusar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qusar_(city)), Xaçmaz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khachmaz_(city)), Şamaxı (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamakhi), Ağsu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agsu_(city)) and Dağlıq Qarabağ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh), probably have more J1 than others. J1 is rising up to 30-35% in some of these regions perhaps. You can see the 2 main mountainous regions possible have high J1 frequencies of Northern Azerbaijan on the map below.
http://i.imgur.com/8j5ciNl.jpg

This is main haplogroup of highlander Northern Azerbaijanis and is a sign of Caucasian heritage of Northern Azerbaijanis according to me. Proto-Caucasian tribes and Caucasian Albanians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania) were possible main baerers of this haplogroup in the Caucasus. J1 is also found at 67% among Avars, 58% among Lezgins and 49% among Tabasarans in Northern Caucasus according to Yunusbayev et al. 2011 (http://dienekes.blogspot.com.tr/2011/09/caucasus-revisited-yunusbayev-et-al.html). These peoples are also some of ethnic minorities in the Republic of Azerbaijan.

Haplogroup R1a is second common haplogroup among Iranian Azerbaijanis and found at 17-18%. This haplogroup has a close frequency with R1b among Iranian Azerbaijanis and these two haplogroups make up 34% of Iranian Azerbaijanis. Azerbaijani R1a samples generally belong to R1a-Z93 and R1b samples generally belong to R1b-Z2103. These 2 haplogroups also found together at significant percentages among some Iranic peoples, such as Persians, Kurds, Zazas, Lurs, Gilaki and Mazendaranis near the Iranian Azerbaijanis. R1a and R1b were Bronze/Iron Age lineages who came to Iran with Indo-European migrations. High frequencies of these haplogroups show us strong Indo-European Iranic heritages among Iranian Azerbaijanis. However, Central Asian Turkic peoples (Oghuzes) who settled in the Iran during Medieval Age might have had R1a and R1b at high frequencies, therefore I belive that some R1a and R1b of Azerbaijanis are Turkic lineages. I think Indo-European Manneans, Matienes and Medes of Azerbaijan; Achaemenidian, Sasanian and Parthian nobles of Persia and Turkic Oghuzes were baerers of these two haplogroups to Iranian Azerbaijanis.

As a result, I think Northern Azerbaijanis have a little more Caucasian heritage than Iranian Azerbaijanis and Iranian Azerbaijanis have more Iranic heritage than Northern Azerbaijanis.

Some Proto-Caucasian tribes, Caucasian Albanians, Armenians, Lezgins, Udins, Avars, Tabasarans, some Medieval Iranic peoples and Medieval Arabs who lived in Northern Azerbaijan before Turkification and Islamization played great roles with Turkic peoples (also Mongols) in the ethnogenesis of Northern Azerbaijanis.

Manneans, Matienes, Medes, Achaemenidians, Parthians, Sasanians, Assyrians and some Proto-Caucasian people of Iranian Azerbaijan before Indo-Europeanization who lived in Iranian Azerbaijan played great roles with Turkic peoples (also Mongols) in the ethnogenesis of Iranian Azerbaijanis.

Is there any difference in regarding the presence of haplogroup Q?

rafael
04-10-2016, 06:17 AM
From Wikipedia:


J-M172 is found at moderate frequencies among Central Asian people such as Uyghurs, Uzbeks, Turkmens, Tajiks, Kazakhs, and Yaghnobis. According to the genetic study in Northeast China by Shou et al. (2010), a notable high frequency of J-M172 is observed particularly in Uyghurs 34% and Uzbeks 30.4% in East Turkestan, China. J*-M304, which is the genetic marker to define Paragroup J-P209, is also found among Xibo, Kazakh, Dongxiang and Uzbek people in Northwest China. This study also displays how far lineage J2 reached eastward, and it is also noted that the estimated age of J2-M172 in this region seems more ancient than the history of Islam.(Shou 2010)

In 2015, two ancient samples of J2-M172 (J2a) were found in two different archaeological sites, Kytmanovo and Sary-bel kurgan, which are located in Altai, Russia. Both of the ancient samples are related to Iron Age cultures in Altai. Sary-bel J2a is dated to 50 BC whereas Kytmanovo sample is dated to 721-889 AD. Genetic admixture of these samples also displays that Iron Age Altaians are more West Eurasian than contemporary Altaians, and these ancient J2a samples seem to be more related to present-day Turkic people based on Gedmatch results.[16][17][18]



''it is also noted that the estimated age of J2-M172 in this region seems more ancient than the history of Islam.(Shou 2010)''

Isn't it weird that J2 in CA is more ancient that the history of Islam and that it is mostly associated with the turkic speaking people? There has to be something! Don't get me wrong I'm not Pan-Turkist or anything :D I just think there has to be something more than elite dominance in azeris and turks.

DMXX
04-10-2016, 03:26 PM
There are degrees of elite dominance. Historical accounts plainly indicate there were thousands of Turkoman tribals who entered West Asia during the Medieval period. They were likely greater than 1-2% of the total local population, which is the range we'd expect for extreme elite dominance (f.ex. Arab rule over post-Sassanid Persia).

As Central Asia (both the steppe and sedentary agricultural areas) was already a nexus region by the Iron Age, it's reasonable to suspect that the Oghuz Turks carried a plethora of haplogroups.

Y-DNA R1a1a-M17 is ubiquitous across the Eurasian steppes from the late Bronze Age onwards. We also know Y-DNA J and Q was present in the Iron Age Altai. We have good reason to suspect all three of these, plus some additional others, were present among the Oghuz.

It simply isn't a matter of counting up the East Eurasian Y-DNA or mtDNA in Turkey, Azerbaijan and Iran and ascribing these to "Turk input", as some folks do online. Some of these could well precede the Oghuz Turks (Silk Road? Also, a minority of Asian Indo-European steppe Y-DNA is East Eurasian). Others will follow on (last year, I found a single Azeri Iranian with a perfect Y-STR match with Mongolians; first time I've seen that, but probably linked to Tamerlane or Genghis' misadventures in the region).

Tomenable
04-10-2016, 04:08 PM
Yes, Turks did not "teleport" themselves from Mongolia to Anatolia.

They literally absorbed all of the Iranian Steppe on their way there.

AJL
04-10-2016, 04:11 PM
''it is also noted that the estimated age of J2-M172 in this region seems more ancient than the history of Islam.(Shou 2010)''

Isn't it weird that J2 in CA is more ancient that the history of Islam and that it is mostly associated with the turkic speaking people? There has to be something!

The age itself is not strange at all, J2 is found in heavy concentration into the southernmost parts of South Asia among Dravidian speakers, almost all of whom are either Hindu or Buddhist. Clearly it had a much wider spread than with Islam. As to the next point:


these ancient J2a samples seem to be more related to present-day Turkic people based on Gedmatch results.

Does this refer to Turkic people from areas that were solidly Turkic pre-500 CE, or to areas occupied by former nomadic Indo-Iranians who were Turkicized around that time? Big difference.

Afshar
04-11-2016, 06:18 AM
The age itself is not strange at all, J2 is found in heavy concentration into the southernmost parts of South Asia among Dravidian speakers, almost all of whom are either Hindu or Buddhist. Clearly it had a much wider spread than with Islam. As to the next point:



Does this refer to Turkic people from areas that were solidly Turkic pre-500 CE, or to areas occupied by former nomadic Indo-Iranians who were Turkicized around that time? Big difference.
I think he means the rise602 from iron age Altai.

J Man
04-12-2016, 02:03 AM
I think he means the rise602 from iron age Altai.

Here is an interesting link about the two ancient J2 samples from Iron Age Altai.

http://j2-m172.info/2015/06/j2a2-ph3085-sk1403-ancient-altai-modern-uygur-turkish/

The sample from the Sary-Bel Kurgan is confirmed to be J2a. The link also mentions that it looks like the J2a sample from the Sary-Bel Kurgan may belong to the Bulan-Koba culture. I wonder if that can be confirmed? Any courses out there that link this Y-DNA haplogroup J2a sample (II c. BC – I century AD) from the Sary-Bel Kurgan to the Bulan-Koba culture?

Ral
04-13-2016, 08:26 PM
This is not an unique situation with Azeri turk. The same situation with the majority of Turkic peoples.
In some turkic-speaking populations any of the east eurasian haplogroups still not found.
It is now clear that some subclades R1a, J2a,E,L appeared in the Turkic populations in very ancient times.

DMXX
04-13-2016, 08:29 PM
It is now clear that some subclades R1a, J2a,E,L appeared in the Turkic populations in very ancient times.

R1a1a and J is in line with our current evidence.

Where is E and L coming from? These haven't even been discovered on the steppes (yet).

Ral
04-13-2016, 08:41 PM
R1a1a and J is in line with our current evidence.

Where is E and L coming from? These haven't even been discovered on the steppes (yet).
For Example
http://www.photo-host.org/images/2016/04/13/4EWSQa.jpg

Ral
04-13-2016, 08:45 PM
As i know, bashkir's r1b are indistinguishable from Yamnaya's r1b and probably originate from them.

J Man
04-14-2016, 01:21 AM
For Example
http://www.photo-host.org/images/2016/04/13/4EWSQa.jpg

Where are those pie charts from? Iran definitely does not have that much Y-DNA haplogroup I.

DMXX
04-14-2016, 05:32 AM
For Example
http://www.photo-host.org/images/2016/04/13/4EWSQa.jpg

Thank you for posting this.

The problem with using modern uniparental frequencies in this manner is that we cannot definitively link a given subclade with a past migratory event easily without ancient DNA. The past dictates the present, not vice versa. Even then, the totality of the current distributions only give us an idea regarding what we could expect to find. It's entirely possible that the Oghuz confederacy had some serious unrecorded founder effects going on. We probably won't know until extensive sampling of West Asia is coupled with aDNA through phylogenetic networking.

The Iranian and Turkish frequencies of Y-DNA E1b, for instance, closely mirror (or are geographically consistent with) frequencies in adjacent regions in West Asia. Y-DNA L is more complicated (L1b, which is the predominant form in the Near-East, makes up a big portion of Turkey's, whereas L1c enjoys a greater presence in Iran). Some of the L1c in Turkey, Azerbaijan and Iran could well have been introduced by the Oghuz Turks.


As i know, bashkir's r1b are indistinguishable from Yamnaya's r1b and probably originate from them.

Correct. Yamnaya R1b is Z2103+. Most of the R1b found in West Asia is also Z2103+. The popular hypothesis, based on the current evidence, is that it descends from Yamnaya in some manner. We have the Anatolian and Armenian IE branches to connect with that.

I do think it is quite reasonable to link R1b-M73 (different subclade) in West Asia with Turkic speakers. R1b-M73 has a rather "Eurasian" distribution and at least one of the clusters identified in vineviz's FTDNA project is firmly Central Asian (and pan-Turkic). R1b-M73 also makes up a very large chunk of the R found in modern East-Central Asia. The source of the R1b-M73 in this region is unclear, but some (such as Michał) have linked it with the Tocharians. I do think this is a fair proposal, based on what we know of East-Central Asian archaeology, the phylogeny of R1b-M73 etc.


Where are those pie charts from? Iran definitely does not have that much Y-DNA haplogroup I.

Yes, I was about to comment on this. Looks like the Iranian data is derived from Nasidze et al., which a lot of people (including myself) have found to be inconsistent with the data that's followed since publication in the early-mid 2000's.

Grugni et al. is the best snapshot we have of Iran's Y-DNA distribution. Eyeballing the pie chart, the actual distribution based on current data looks more R1b, more J, less E1b and a lot less I than that pie chart depicts.

Anabasis
04-15-2016, 10:29 AM
This is not an unique situation with Azeri turk. The same situation with the majority of Turkic peoples.
In some turkic-speaking populations any of the east eurasian haplogroups still not found.
It is now clear that some subclades R1a, J2a,E,L appeared in the Turkic populations in very ancient times.

Well it might be true but not clear as far as J2a, E, L are very native to south caucaus, Iran and near east. On the other hand all of those Hgs are 50 k years old. Thats why while we are talking about modern ethnicities we should hesitate to argue with main haplogroups but some subsclade which might represent the dufision of a culture of ethnicity in a specific time period should be discussed.

The J2a found iron age Altai probably one of the proto turkic subsclade. I am so sure that some j2a, R1a and also maybe some E or L (we have not any reliable data about that as far as the L1b in tatars are mostly in same subsclade with L1b Azov greeks and those tatars probably from Azov) participated in Turkic dufision after Iron Age.

Ral
04-15-2016, 08:21 PM
Well it might be true but not clear as far as J2a, E, L are very native to south caucaus, Iran and near east. On the other hand all of those Hgs are 50 k years old. Thats why while we are talking about modern ethnicities we should hesitate to argue with main haplogroups but some subsclade which might represent the dufision of a culture of ethnicity in a specific time period should be discussed.

The J2a found iron age Altai probably one of the proto turkic subsclade. I am so sure that some j2a, R1a and also maybe some E or L (we have not any reliable data about that as far as the L1b in tatars are mostly in same subsclade with L1b Azov greeks and those tatars probably from Azov) participated in Turkic dufision after Iron Age.
If researchers identify common subclade j2a for the Turkic-speaking peoples - it will not be a sensation. It will not destroy the modern conception of the ways and times of the Turkic migrations, which are considered in the analysis as constants. In the next two to three years in-depth research of Y-dna of some turkic people and ancient dna will be carried out , that will bind some turkic people with some archaeological cultures. I'm aware of has very interesting data, but prefer not to get ahead of ourselves. Probably, it may undermine well-established historical concepts.

rafael
04-29-2016, 07:12 AM
I long used to think that a certain culture or language derives from one single haplogroup. And it was quite difficult to see it in the bigger picture that many of the haplogroups are way older than the culture they are being found in.

Now I consider that many different haplogroups have formed various cultures together. And this way it is much more beautiful anyways considering the beauty of genetic admixtures.

Just as in this Turkic case it's now known that the Proto - Turks carried different haplogroups ( nothing new here) Most probably the Proto - Iranians had the same thing going back then.

rafael
05-20-2016, 01:06 PM
what are the most common J2 & J1 subclades among Iranian Azeris?

DMXX
05-20-2016, 01:35 PM
Y-DNA J1 does not appear to be especially common among Azeri Iranians. Going by Grugni et al., 4.8% were J1c3-PAGE08, which is around the same ballpark as other non-Persian Iranian populations that don't speak a Semitic language.

Several J2 subclades are found among them. Please liaise with the chart below (again from Grugni).

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_mypYjUAwqw/UAjZdNrHAqI/AAAAAAAAAMY/nxbhHviubow/s1600/study4.png

Afshar
05-20-2016, 03:40 PM
Y-DNA J1 does not appear to be especially common among Azeri Iranians. Going by Grugni et al., 4.8% were J1c3-PAGE08, which is around the same ballpark as other non-Persian Iranian populations that don't speak a Semitic language.

Several J2 subclades are found among them. Please liaise with the chart below (again from Grugni).

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_mypYjUAwqw/UAjZdNrHAqI/AAAAAAAAAMY/nxbhHviubow/s1600/study4.png
Saw the table numerous time but looked over that baloch people have 4.2% qm120?

DMXX
05-20-2016, 03:46 PM
Saw the table numerous time but looked over that baloch people have 4.2% qm120?

Indeed; 4.2% Q-M120 among Iranian Balochis according to that table.

However, the sample size is only 24. Ergo, only a single Iranian Balochi fellow belonged to Q-M120.

Whether or not that figure is truly representative is unknown until we receive more data from Sistan-Balochistan province.

Just my personal position, but I take subclade frequency data where n<50 with a bucketload of salt and n>100 as approximately representative of a given ethnic group's subclade diversity at a given location.

Based on that, I'd only consider the Bandari data from Grugni et al. to be reasonably representative of the likely frequency. The other numbers are either too small to critically appraise (Zoroastrian, Afro-Iranian) or very roughly representative (i.e. Azeri, Turkmen, Mazandarani).

Though, I don't think that massive Q1a2-M25 frequency among Turkmen from Gulestan is any sort of fluke.

vettor
05-20-2016, 06:45 PM
As far as what I am interested in

The TL union seems to figure only in some degree to the Bandari and Lur peoples, then T went north to azeri, sweeping into kurds and then assyrians.........while L stayed further south , maybe "fertile lands" area of Iraq and "afro-iranian "?

rafael
07-09-2016, 05:27 PM
looking at the chart I noticed that few % of azeris carry the E-V13 haplogroup. I wonder if it's associated with Greek ''invasions'' such as greco-persian wars/ greek rulers of the Azarbaijan province or could it possibly be way older which split from the rest of the EV-13 carriers who went to Balkans?

Afshar
07-09-2016, 05:54 PM
looking at the chart I noticed that few % of azeris carry the E-V13 haplogroup. I wonder if it's associated with Greek ''invasions'' such as greco-persian wars/ greek rulers of the Azarbaijan province or could it possibly be way older which split from the rest of the EV-13 carriers who went to Balkans?

According to yfull formed 7700 ybp, TMRCA 4200 ybp

Caspian
07-09-2016, 08:51 PM
Y-dna distribution of Azerbaijani people is updated on 9 July 2016.

There are some new samples as below.

4x R1b1a2-Z2103 (2x R1b1a2-L277, 2x R1b1a2-L584)

2x R1a-Z93

2x J2a-M410

2x C-M217

1x J1-P58 (J1-Z640 )

1x G2a-P15

1x N1b-L732

1x T1a2-P77

1x I2-P78

1x R2a-F1092

1x H-M52


Total

J2: 50
R1b: 41
J1: 35
R1a: 26
G: 18
E1b: 17
T: 11
L: 8
C3: 7
I2: 6
R2: 6
N: 5
Q: 5
I1: 4
H: 4
O3: 1
F: 1

Top 5 y-dna haplogroups of Azerbaijani people are J2, R1b, J1, R1a and G.

rafael
07-11-2016, 08:35 AM
Y-dna distribution of Azerbaijani people is updated on 9 July 2016.

There are some new samples as below.

4x R1b1a2-Z2103 (2x R1b1a2-L277, 2x R1b1a2-L584)

2x R1a-Z93

2x J2a-M410

2x C-M217

1x J1-P58 (J1-Z640 )

1x G2a-P15

1x N1b-L732

1x T1a2-P77

1x I2-P78

1x R2a-F1092

1x H-M52


Total

J2: 50
R1b: 41
J1: 35
R1a: 26
G: 18
E1b: 17
T: 11
L: 8
C3: 7
I2: 6
R2: 6
N: 5
Q: 5
I1: 4
H: 4
O3: 1
F: 1

Top 5 y-dna haplogroups of Azerbaijani people are J2, R1b, J1, R1a and G.

any idea are the carriers of HG I rep Azeris or South Azeris? And the distribution above is south and north azeris combined right?

Caspian
07-11-2016, 02:24 PM
I1 and I2 samples are usually from Northern Azerbaijan.

Caspian
07-11-2016, 02:31 PM
I think y-dna distribution of Azerbaijanis is more closer to Anatolian Turks and Armenians than Persian, Kurds and Caucasian peoples. I am going to create some y-dna comparison charts of Azerbaijanis and neighbor peoples.

For example,

Y-dna distribution of Azerbaijanis

J2: 20%
R1b: 17%
J1: 14%
R1a: 11%
G: 7%
E1b: 7%
T: 4%
L: 3%
C3: 3%
I2: 2%
R2: 2%
N: 2%
Q: 2%
I1: 2%
H: 2%

Y-dna distribution of Turkish people (cinnioglu et al.2004)

J2: 24%
R1b: 16%
G: 11%
E1b: 11%
J1: 9%
R1a: 7%
I (I1+I2): 6%
L: 4%
N: 4%
T: 3%
Q: 2%
C3: 1%
R2: 1%
H: 1%

Y-dna distribution of Kurds (Palisto's Kurdish dna blog)

J2: 24%
E1b: 13%
J1: 12%
R1b: 11%
R1a: 11%
R2: 7%
I (I1+I2): 6%
T: 5%
G: 5%
F: 3%
L: 2%

Y-dna distribution of Armenians

R1b: 25%
J2: 23%
G: 12%
J1: 12%
E1b: 8%
T: 6%
I2: 5%
L: 3%
R1a: 3%
Q: 2%
R2: 1%

rafael
07-12-2016, 07:37 AM
I think y-dna distribution of Azerbaijanis is more closer to Anatolian Turks and Armenians than Persian, Kurds and Caucasian peoples. I am going to create some y-dna comparison charts of Azerbaijanis and neighbor peoples.

For example,

Y-dna distribution of Azerbaijanis

J2: 20%
R1b: 17%
J1: 14%
R1a: 11%
G: 7%
E1b: 7%
T: 4%
L: 3%
C3: 3%
I2: 2%
R2: 2%
N: 2%
Q: 2%
I1: 2%
H: 2%

Y-dna distribution of Turkish people (cinnioglu et al.2004)

J2: 24%
R1b: 16%
G: 11%
E1b: 11%
J1: 9%
R1a: 7%
I (I1+I2): 6%
L: 4%
N: 4%
T: 3%
Q: 2%
C3: 1%
R2: 1%
H: 1%

Y-dna distribution of Kurds (Palisto's Kurdish dna blog)

J2: 24%
E1b: 13%
J1: 12%
R1b: 11%
R1a: 11%
R2: 7%
I (I1+I2): 6%
T: 5%
G: 5%
F: 3%
L: 2%

Y-dna distribution of Armenians

R1b: 25%
J2: 23%
G: 12%
J1: 12%
E1b: 8%
T: 6%
I2: 5%
L: 3%
R1a: 3%
Q: 2%
R2: 1%

thanks. have you combined south and north azeris tho? or is it the results of only north azeris?

RCO
07-12-2016, 10:38 AM
There's one Azerbaijani NGS J1-PF7257 in Monika`s Karmin article MK2015#13741/Azerb13

DMXX
07-17-2016, 02:19 PM
thanks. have you combined south and north azeris tho? or is it the results of only north azeris?

These look like Republic Azeris to me, based on the Y-DNA R1a1a-M17 frequency.

Azeri Iranians are quite consistently in the same range as Kurmanji Kurds with respect to that subclade (based on Quintana-Murci et al., Grugni et al.).

Caspian
07-17-2016, 08:52 PM
These are combined results of Northern and Southern Azerbaijanis.

We can talk about significant difference on the frequencies of R1a and J1 between Northern and Southern Azerbaijanis.

Northern Azerbaijanis (Azerbaijanis from the Republic of Azerbaijan, Turkey and Georgia) have higher J1 (20%) than Southern Azerbaijanis (Azerbaijanis from Iranian Azerbaijan) (about 8%) while Southern Azerbaijanis have higher R1a (about 18%) than Northern Azerbaijanis (about 6%).

I also noticed that Northern Azerbaijanis (especially Northwestern Azerbaijanis) have more East Eurasian haplogroups (Q, C3, N1b, O3) than Southern Azerbaijanis.

Caspian
07-17-2016, 09:02 PM
There's one Azerbaijani NGS J1-PF7257 in Monika`s Karmin article MK2015#13741/Azerb13

Thank you so much. I already used that sample :)

Arame
07-21-2016, 04:45 AM
Hi Caspian

Do You have much E V13 in Azeri project?
Also do South Uralian Turks have E V13?

rafael
07-21-2016, 07:19 PM
This is off topic related question but couldn't help my self ato ask you guys (especially azeri ones) : what are your relatives (f. Ex parents and such) thoughts on the whole azeri Y dna thing or just overall take on haplogroups and genetics? Mine do not care at all and never understand word I say ;P ;)

Caspian
07-25-2016, 09:08 PM
Y-dna distribution of Azerbaijani people is updated on 9 July 2016.

There are some new samples as below.

4x R1b1a2-Z2103 (2x R1b1a2-L277, 2x R1b1a2-L584)

2x R1a-Z93

2x J2a-M410

2x C-M217

1x J1-P58 (J1-Z640 )

1x G2a-P15

1x N1b-L732

1x T1a2-P77

1x I2-P78

1x R2a-F1092

1x H-M52


Total

J2: 50
R1b: 41
J1: 35
R1a: 26
G: 18
E1b: 17
T: 11
L: 8
C3: 7
I2: 6
R2: 6
N: 5
Q: 5
I1: 4
H: 4
O3: 1
F: 1

Top 5 y-dna haplogroups of Azerbaijani people are J2, R1b, J1, R1a and G.

+ 1 more R1b1a2 Z2013 and it is probably L584 or Z2106


J2: 50
R1b: 42
J1: 35
R1a: 26
G: 18
E1b: 17
T: 11
L: 8
C3: 7
I2: 6
R2: 6
N: 5
Q: 5
I1: 4
H: 4
O3: 1
F: 1

Caspian
07-25-2016, 09:33 PM
Hi Caspian

Do You have much E V13 in Azeri project?
Also do South Uralian Turks have E V13?

Hi Arame.

There are two members who is E-V13 in FTDNA Azerbaijan project, but they aren't ethnic Azerbaijani/Azerbaijani Turk. One member is ethnic Armenian from Nakhchivan and one member is Balkan Turkish from Greece. I believe that E-V13 found among Azerbaijanis but I don't know it's actual frequency.

I haven't got detailed information about y-dna of Uralian Turkic peoples. I know only they have N1c and R1a at high frequencies :)

This is FTDNA Tatar project and members of this project are usually from Volga/Ural region.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/tatarlar?iframe=yresults

There are some E-V13 in this project.

Mofrad
08-17-2016, 01:14 PM
My paternal line may be relevant to this thread

My paternal grandfather (Abolfazl Mohassel Mofrad) was born Mashhad, Iran 1925
his father (Hamdollah Zanjani) born 1870s Ashgabat, Turkmenistan and his mother (Nardaneh Ahmadzadeh) born Baku, Azerbaijan

My father's kit on Gedmatch (T216540) shows a large amount of Azeri and Jewish ancestry, although it is the first I am seeing any Jewish since the family is currently Muslim.

My latest Y Haplo group (FTDNA, Big Y & Full Y Genome transfer)

J - L1021 (FGC2857) (a branch of J2a)

My paternal family is silent on our Y origins, and I cannot seem to get further back than Hamdollah Zanjani (who changed his surname when he came to Iran in the 1920s era, and is possibly from the Caucasus or Azerbaijan/Georgia)

rafael
08-25-2016, 07:27 AM
Very interesting. Perhaps it was an Azeri family who moved to Turkmenistan? Also maybe it's just me but there seems to be quite a few people whose paternal lineages are Iranian Azeri who in turn came to Iran originally from different parts of the caucasus. Ecpecially Georgia is named many times. In my case my fathers maternal lineage is originally from Derbent, Dagestan. But they were Azeri since the surname was Aliyev. But yet my father would also say Georgia when I asked him about our roots but instead it turned out to be Dagestanian Azeri so no major changes there :P Makes you wonder if these are just false assumptions by our Iranian Azeri fathers))) Just speaking from my own experience))

Caspian
09-04-2016, 09:03 AM
7 new Azerbaijani samples from Dagestan/Derbentsky (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derbentsky_District)/Nyugdi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyugdi,_Russia) based on Karafet et al. 2016 paper.

http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v61/n3/full/jhg2015132a.html


2x J1-M267* (probably J1-Z1828)
1x J1-P58
1x J2a-L70
1x J2a-M67
1x R1a-Z93
1x R1b-L23* (probably R1b-Z2103)

Y-dna distribution of Azerbaijanis from Dagestan very similar to Lezgins and Kumyks.

Total after these samples

J2: 52
R1b: 43
J1: 38
R1a: 27
G: 18
E1b: 17
T: 11
L: 8
C3: 7
I2: 6
R2: 6
N: 5
Q: 5
I1: 4
H: 4
O3: 1
F: 1

There is a big race between J2, R1b, J1 and R1a haplogroups:)

Caspian
09-06-2016, 11:52 AM
There is one more new sample with Qarapapaq Azerbaijani lineage like me. But he is a Sunni Qarapapaq. R1a-Z93 from Kars.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Kars_in_Turkey.svg/300px-Kars_in_Turkey.svg.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kars

His ancestors probably emigrated from Borchali region (Southeast Georgia, Northwest Azerbaijan or North Armenia) to Kars at the end of 19th century or early 20th century.

Total distribution

J2: 52
R1b: 43
J1: 38
R1a: 28
G: 18
E1b: 17
T: 11
L: 8
C3: 7
I2: 6
R2: 6
N: 5
Q: 5
I1: 4
H: 4
O3: 1
F: 1

rafael
09-06-2016, 01:40 PM
What's the difference between Qarapapaq Azerbaijani and a regular Azerbaijani? Do we all belong to a certain tribe? My maternal family are native bakuvians and paternal from tabriz/derbent. Are there any tribes linked to those?

Farroukh
09-09-2016, 02:34 AM
E-V13 found among Azerbaijanis but I don't know it's actual frequency.
Frequency of E-V13 is too low among peoples of Eastern Transcaucasia.

E-V13 among Uralian Turkic peoples is the result of recent European influence.

Azeri and Western Iranian people have the same Y-haplogroups (Middle East+ low percent of Central Asia)

Afshar
09-09-2016, 07:07 AM
Frequency of E-V13 is too low among peoples of Eastern Transcaucasia.

E-V13 among Uralian Turkic peoples is the result of recent European influence.

Azeri and Western Iranian people have the same Y-haplogroups (Middle East+ low percent of Central Asia)
Do you have some sources for this subject, cant find anything about it

Farroukh
09-09-2016, 12:09 PM
I have only Bashkir and Tatar E-V13 data from open projects. All of them close to Europeans.

Afshar
09-09-2016, 02:49 PM
I have only Bashkir and Tatar E-V13 data from open projects. All of them close to Europeans.

What kind of trmca are we talking about

Farroukh
09-10-2016, 08:43 AM
1000-2500 years. Bashkirs and Tatars also have such typical European inclusion as I1-Y19809 and R1b-U152

Caspian
09-10-2016, 08:34 PM
This topic is about Y-dna of Azerbaijani people, but I want to share some autosomal analysis about Azerbaijanis on this topic. May you change name of this topic as "Azerbaijani Genetics"? I don't want to open different topics about autosomal and mtdna analysis about Azerbaijanis.

Firstly, I will share nMonte analysis of Eurogenes K15 results like like this (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8017-Split-The-Early-Turks-Distribution-amp-Demographic-Outcomes&p=185197#post185197).

rafael
07-04-2017, 07:07 AM
https://www.academia.edu/32284957/EDDA_Part_1_How_Women_from_Lesser_Caucasus_H2a1_Mt DNA_have_recorded_and_transmitted_the_most_ancient _and_longest_lasting_Human_Testimony

lol reading this as an azeri makes me feel weird :D

ztech
10-30-2017, 11:03 PM
Does anyone have a result from Azeri (Republic) from Mcdonald, 23andMe generated, PCA? Thanks

DMXX
10-31-2017, 01:40 AM
Changing thread title now as requested.

Farroukh
11-22-2020, 08:51 AM
Azerbaijan DNA Project link is in my signature