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Learning_Genetics
04-20-2016, 11:54 PM
I was reading a book 'When Scotland was Jewish'. The book argues that over a period of centuries Jews migrated from continental Europe to Scotland because it was quite accepting of them. Apparently these Jews kept their old religion but not openly. They continued to practice in secret as crypto-Jews. The book argues that many Scottish families are descendants of these Jews who migrated in various waves from the 1100s to the 1700s. Apparently they influenced the creation of Presbyterianism and used it as a cover for their Jewish identity.

The authors conducted DNA testing of American men with Scottish surnames who could trace their lineage back to Scotland. The results showed that most had R1b but they also had many genetic matches with Portuguese, Spanish and Latin American men. In many cases the matches were more Latin American or Iberian than they were Scottish or Northern European. How could this be?

The book seems to make the case that these Iberian matches have occurred because Sephardic Jews from Iberia settled in Scotland and remained crypto-Jews. In other words, Jews moved from Spain and Portugal and then settled in Scotland, taking Scottish names and pretending not to be Jewish.

Part of me is inclined to believe that their theory may hold some water but I also have trouble accepting it.

I had initially wondered if it was possible that the R1b could have been carried out of Scotland and into Iberia (circa 1200s to 1700s) which would explain the matches with people from the Latin world. However if this were so it would have likely resulted in these Scottish men having Y-DNA matches with actual Scots themselves than with people from Spain, Portugal or South America. In fact it seems to be the reverse and there are far more matches in the Hispanic world, therefore suggesting these Scottish lineages emerged from there.

I did not see any information on which subclade of R1b these Scottish American men possessed. Determining this might shed more light on this mystery.

Does anyone have any ideas? How likely is it that a good portion of the Scots descend from Sephardic Jews?

fridurich
04-21-2016, 12:34 AM
I think I have read about this same book. Someone else pointed out some serious weaknesses in the assertion that quite a bit of Scotland's culture and a lot of it's genetics are Jewish. I think I bookmarked it. I have seen in some Scottish DNA projects where 2 or more familys, If I remember right, the Montgomerys and the Scotts had some, even very sizable portions of men who were of the haplogroup J. If my memory serves me, I have heard this haplogroup could indicate Arab, Jewish, or some middle eastern origin and it was thought it could have been introduced by Roman soldiers.

From what I have seen of a large number of Scottish Family DNA results, it appears any middle eastern YDNA ancestry is small or even minute. From the vast majority of what I have read about Scottish history, and what Scottish history writers have written, it appears that the great majority of Scottish ancestry is various combinations in differing proportions of stone age people, Celtic peoples (who don't all appear to be related patrilinially to each other, as there are at least a few different haplogroups) such as Gaelic speakers from Ireland, Brythonic Celtic speakers, Picts, and the mixed Viking/Gaelic people who settled Galloway. Also we have the Vikings themselve the Angles, a Germanic tribe, Normans, later English arrivals, Flemings from Belgium. I may have missed some of the early groups who settled Scotland.

Culturally, to me, Scotland seems to have inherited various amounts of culture from most of the above people.

I think as time progresses and more and more advanced DNA tests are done (such as the Big Y test and other advanced tests) on the descendants of the Scottish people in Scotland, America, Australia, Wales, other parts of Britain, around the world, that the notion that there is very much Jewish blood in the Scottish people is going to be seen as obviously false.

This is not to say that some Jewish people didn't come to Scotland centuries ago, and have good relationships with their Scottish neighbors as well as intermarry with them.

Now, this is my take on it. I would like to hear what others who are way more knowledgeable about the subject say.

David Mc
04-21-2016, 01:15 AM
Apparently they influenced the creation of Presbyterianism and used it as a cover for their Jewish identity.

This in itself throws the rest of the book's scholarship in question for me. The Reformation in England happened very differently than in the rest of Europe. Simplistically put (and apologies for that), the continental reformers started new churches. In England the Catholic Church reformed itself. It maintained it's catholicity, but took a page from the Eastern churches and sought a Constantinian figure (Henry VIII) who would protect them and allow them to initiate the reforms they felt necessary. They did this by looking backwards (the writings of the Church Fathers) and outwards (dialogue with the continental Protestants). When Mary ascended the throne, most of the bishops and priests had to flee England. Some fled to Geneva, where they came under the influence of John Calvin. After Mary's demise and Elizabeth I's ascension to the throne they returned to England, but as a divided body. Those who had wholeheartedly embraced Calvin's understanding of the Church would eventually become known as Puritans. This part was especially powerful in Scotland, and eventually became the dominant religious force in that land. Genevan Calvinism was the seedbed of Presbyterianism, not crypto-Judaism.

Agamemnon
04-21-2016, 01:34 AM
With all due respect, that really sounds like a load of nonsense to me. And knowing a thing or two about the R1b branches common in Jews, this theory is as dead as a dodo at least from this perspective.

MacUalraig
04-21-2016, 06:36 AM
I was reading a book 'When Scotland was Jewish'. ...
Oh dear... ;-) the book is well known tosh.


How likely is it that a good portion of the Scots descend from Sephardic Jews?
I would discount it completely. Of course there are Jews in Scotland, especially here in Glasgow (Garnethill).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garnethill_Synagogue

Learning_Genetics
04-21-2016, 11:42 AM
I think I have read about this same book. Someone else pointed out some serious weaknesses in the assertion that quite a bit of Scotland's culture and a lot of it's genetics are Jewish. I think I bookmarked it. I have seen in some Scottish DNA projects where 2 or more familys, If I remember right, the Montgomerys and the Scotts had some, even very sizable portions of men who were of the haplogroup J. If my memory serves me, I have heard this haplogroup could indicate Arab, Jewish, or some middle eastern origin and it was thought it could have been introduced by Roman soldiers.

The J among Scots is very rare and that is why the authors have proposed that most of the Jewish migration to Scotland would have been R1b. They suggest that it may have come the descendents of converts to Judaism in places like Spain or France. This would explain why there is very little J among Scots even if many of them descend from Jews. However I did not see any discussion in their book regarding sublcades which is critical to any discussion about Y-DNA, in my view.


From what I have seen of a large number of Scottish Family DNA results, it appears any middle eastern YDNA ancestry is small or even minute. From the vast majority of what I have read about Scottish history, and what Scottish history writers have written, it appears that the great majority of Scottish ancestry is various combinations in differing proportions of stone age people, Celtic peoples (who don't all appear to be related patrilinially to each other, as there are at least a few different haplogroups) such as Gaelic speakers from Ireland, Brythonic Celtic speakers, Picts, and the mixed Viking/Gaelic people who settled Galloway. Also we have the Vikings themselve the Angles, a Germanic tribe, Normans, later English arrivals, Flemings from Belgium. I may have missed some of the early groups who settled Scotland.

The book is very radical in its assertions. It seems to suggest that all narratives of a Gaelic or Celtic past for Scotland are simply constructions of the 19th century created by Englishmen.

What I simply cannot ignore is the number of matches their tests subjects had with non-Scottish populations. When the locus of the DNA is centred mainly in Iberia it raises many questions.


I think as time progresses and more and more advanced DNA tests are done (such as the Big Y test and other advanced tests) on the descendants of the Scottish people in Scotland, America, Australia, Wales, other parts of Britain, around the world, that the notion that there is very much Jewish blood in the Scottish people is going to be seen as obviously false.

It would be good if we could conduct a serious and heavy study on this subject.


This in itself throws the rest of the book's scholarship in question for me. The Reformation in England happened very differently than in the rest of Europe. Simplistically put (and apologies for that), the continental reformers started new churches. In England the Catholic Church reformed itself. It maintained it's catholicity, but took a page from the Eastern churches and sought a Constantinian figure (Henry VIII) who would protect them and allow them to initiate the reforms they felt necessary. They did this by looking backwards (the writings of the Church Fathers) and outwards (dialogue with the continental Protestants). When Mary ascended the throne, most of the bishops and priests had to flee England. Some fled to Geneva, where they came under the influence of John Calvin. After Mary's demise and Elizabeth I's ascension to the throne they returned to England, but as a divided body. Those who had wholeheartedly embraced Calvin's understanding of the Church would eventually become known as Puritans. This part was especially powerful in Scotland, and eventually became the dominant religious force in that land. Genevan Calvinism was the seedbed of Presbyterianism, not crypto-Judaism.

And this is exactly what the authors of the book allude to, that crypto-Judaism influenced these developments within Scotland. They also have another book which seems to suggest similar notions about the development of Protestantism in England, including suggestions that people like Cromwell may have been Jewish.


With all due respect, that really sounds like a load of nonsense to me. And knowing a thing or two about the R1b branches common in Jews, this theory is as dead as a dodo at least from this perspective.

Do you have any theories on why so many people with Scottish surnames were found to have Y-DNA matches with Spanish and Portueguese males?


Oh dear... ;-) the book is well known tosh.

I saw that it has many good reviews and a lot of people seem to believe in it.

The real issue lies in the DNA evidence. If it can be proven that the R1b Scottish males linked to the Spanish/Portuguese/Latin American males shared a common Jewish ancestor, then it is true. If it can't be proven then it remains simply a theory.

If not for the Spanish/Portueguese/Latin American dimension/connection, I would completely disregard their theory. It is the part that I cannot explain away and which is the most compelling piece of their work.

EastAnglian
04-21-2016, 12:17 PM
The book seems to make the case that these Iberian matches have occurred because Sephardic Jews from Iberia settled in Scotland and remained crypto-Jews. In other words, Jews moved from Spain and Portugal and then settled in Scotland, taking Scottish names and pretending not to be Jewish.

I had initially wondered if it was possible that the R1b could have been carried out of Scotland and into Iberia (circa 1200s to 1700s) which would explain the matches with people from the Latin world. However if this were so it would have likely resulted in these Scottish men having Y-DNA matches with actual Scots themselves than with people from Spain, Portugal or South America. In fact it seems to be the reverse and there are far more matches in the Hispanic world, therefore suggesting these Scottish lineages emerged from there.


Those matches are most likely DF27 (Iberian Celtic), so the Y lineages came over during the Bronze age or later with the Romans, Anglo-Saxons and Normans (depending on SNP). I doubt they're anything to do with Jewish ancestry.

kevinduffy
04-21-2016, 12:37 PM
I was reading a book 'When Scotland was Jewish'. The book argues that over a period of centuries Jews migrated from continental Europe to Scotland because it was quite accepting of them. Apparently these Jews kept their old religion but not openly. They continued to practice in secret as crypto-Jews. The book argues that many Scottish families are descendants of these Jews who migrated in various waves from the 1100s to the 1700s. Apparently they influenced the creation of Presbyterianism and used it as a cover for their Jewish identity.

The authors conducted DNA testing of American men with Scottish surnames who could trace their lineage back to Scotland. The results showed that most had R1b but they also had many genetic matches with Portuguese, Spanish and Latin American men. In many cases the matches were more Latin American or Iberian than they were Scottish or Northern European. How could this be?

The book seems to make the case that these Iberian matches have occurred because Sephardic Jews from Iberia settled in Scotland and remained crypto-Jews. In other words, Jews moved from Spain and Portugal and then settled in Scotland, taking Scottish names and pretending not to be Jewish.

Part of me is inclined to believe that their theory may hold some water but I also have trouble accepting it.

I had initially wondered if it was possible that the R1b could have been carried out of Scotland and into Iberia (circa 1200s to 1700s) which would explain the matches with people from the Latin world. However if this were so it would have likely resulted in these Scottish men having Y-DNA matches with actual Scots themselves than with people from Spain, Portugal or South America. In fact it seems to be the reverse and there are far more matches in the Hispanic world, therefore suggesting these Scottish lineages emerged from there.

I did not see any information on which subclade of R1b these Scottish American men possessed. Determining this might shed more light on this mystery.

Does anyone have any ideas? How likely is it that a good portion of the Scots descend from Sephardic Jews?

One of the criticisms that I have seen of this book is that the DNA evidence in this work only includes Y-DNA 12 markers. Why did the researchers use so few markers?

Learning_Genetics
04-21-2016, 12:50 PM
Those matches are most likely DF27 (Iberian Celtic), so the Y lineages came over during the Bronze age or later with the Romans, Anglo-Saxons and Normans (depending on SNP). I doubt they're anything to do with Jewish ancestry.

That was my initial thought as well. There was every possibility that those lineages were brought over far in the distant past by the Romans.

However, they said that the MCRA of one of their samples was from only 1,000 years ago rather than 2,000 or so years if it were to have arrived in the Bronze age or with the Romans.

I am quite new to DNA testing but can the MCRA be predicted with any real accuracy? I remember reading somewhere that no two people living today have a recent common ancestor older than the 11th century.

But maybe I am wrong. In any case they assert that the common ancestry of one of their samples was only from around the 11th century.


One of the criticisms that I have seen of this book is that the DNA evidence in this work only includes Y-DNA 12 markers. Why did the researchers use so few markers?

This is a very good point. I suppose that in order to confirm any such relationship it would be necessary to use as many markers as possible?

ADW_1981
04-21-2016, 12:52 PM
Some old papers on Sephardic Jews put R1b at close to 25% if I recall. I suspect the overwhelming majority of Scots are ...Scots, not crypto-Jews. It is just coincidental that in some cases they belong to the same haplogroup. I'm not of the mind that P312+ suddenly means an Iberian converted to Judaism. We've seen that P312+ haplotypes actually exist in the Levant and Mideast, most likely arriving during the Bronze or later period, but this remains to be proven.

EastAnglian
04-21-2016, 01:07 PM
One of the criticisms that I have seen of this book is that the DNA evidence in this work only includes Y-DNA 12 markers. Why did the researchers use so few markers?

Yep at least 67 needed.


That was my initial thought as well. There was every possibility that those lineages were brought over far in the distant past by the Romans.

However, they said that the MCRA of one of their samples was from only 1,000 years ago rather than 2,000 or so years if it were to have arrived in the Bronze age or with the Romans.

I am quite new to DNA testing but can the MCRA be predicted with any real accuracy? I remember reading somewhere that no two people living today have a recent common ancestor older than the 11th century.

But maybe I am wrong. In any case they assert that the common ancestry of one of their samples was only from around the 11th century.


Normans it is then :)


Some old papers on Sephardic Jews put R1b at close to 25% if I recall. I suspect the overwhelming majority of Scots are ...Scots, not crypto-Jews. It is just coincidental that in some cases they belong to the same haplogroup. I'm not of the mind that P312+ suddenly means an Iberian converted to Judaism. We've seen that P312+ haplotypes actually exist in the Levant and Mideast, most likely arriving during the Bronze or later period, but this remains to be proven.

True but they would be a tiny percentage, much less than is implied here.

moesan
04-21-2016, 01:17 PM
Look as a "scoop" book: American? NO surprise!
1- the surnames in merica were often changed to pass for British (Grunnenwald/Greenwwod, Neumann/Newman, and so on) - here we deal with "scottish" surnames IN THE USA...
2- No confidence in STR's surveys (it recalls me the time when Scandinavian were put together with Greeks), even upon more markers. Btw at STRs values all Atlantic Y-R1b are very close one to another, if I'm right.

moesan
04-21-2016, 01:20 PM
We have even some forms of true gaelic surnames passing for Jewish surnames (Coen, Cohen ...). And if a Jew Levy changes his name into Lewis, are the numerous Lewis of Wales Jews?

Learning_Genetics
04-21-2016, 01:46 PM
Some old papers on Sephardic Jews put R1b at close to 25% if I recall. I suspect the overwhelming majority of Scots are ...Scots, not crypto-Jews. It is just coincidental that in some cases they belong to the same haplogroup. I'm not of the mind that P312+ suddenly means an Iberian converted to Judaism. We've seen that P312+ haplotypes actually exist in the Levant and Mideast, most likely arriving during the Bronze or later period, but this remains to be proven.

I would think nothing of it except for the common ancestry with the Scottish Iberian Y-DNA matches that only have common ancestry going back to the 11th century or so.

If they were not Jews then how else would Iberian DNA have arrived in Scotland, I wonder?


Normans it is then :)

I would be inclined to think so but the Normans did not bring any lineages from Iberia to the British Isles.


1- the surnames in merica were often changed to pass for British (Grunnenwald/Greenwwod, Neumann/Newman, and so on) - here we deal with "scottish" surnames IN THE USA...

True but if those Americans can document their ancestry back to Scotland then I am sure we can believe them.


2- No confidence in STR's surveys (it recalls me the time when Scandinavian were put together with Greeks), even upon more markers. Btw at STRs values all Atlantic Y-R1b are very close one to another, if I'm right.

So they are not always a reliable means of determining a common paternal anestor?


We have even some forms of true gaelic surnames passing for Jewish surnames (Coen, Cohen ...). And if a Jew Levy changes his name into Lewis, are the numerous Lewis of Wales Jews?

It is possible but if they can trace their ancestry back to Europe then this is not so.

ADW_1981
04-21-2016, 02:07 PM
I would think nothing of it except for the common ancestry with the Scottish Iberian Y-DNA matches that only have common ancestry going back to the 11th century or so.

If they were not Jews then how else would Iberian DNA have arrived in Scotland, I wonder?



I would be inclined to think so but the Normans did not bring any lineages from Iberia to the British Isles.



True but if those Americans can document their ancestry back to Scotland then I am sure we can believe them.



So they are not always a reliable means of determining a common paternal anestor?



It is possible but if they can trace their ancestry back to Europe then this is not so.

What do you mean by Iberian DNA? The latest evidence is from the Bronze Age forward, the people of old Britannia, and Ireland as well, came from central Europe. We actually know less about Iberia, other than the Neolithic population seemed consistent with that of the LBK of central Europe.

I am not aware of recent connections between Iberian men and British/Irish men overall. They share common nodes in DF27, L21...etc, but these links all go back 4500 years, maybe more and likely to a common source in west-central Europe. How many STR were examined when dating a common ancestor to 11th century? This would be an extremely small number of Scottish and Iberian men and could almost be connected through surname. If this is an old book it's probably looking at too few STR and is not accurate.

Learning_Genetics
04-21-2016, 04:25 PM
How many STR were examined when dating a common ancestor to 11th century? This would be an extremely small number of Scottish and Iberian men and could almost be connected through surname. If this is an old book it's probably looking at too few STR and is not accurate.

I am not all that sure. I will have to look again in future when I can next get my hands on this book.

It was was published in 2007, almost ten years ago.

ADW_1981
04-21-2016, 04:56 PM
I am not all that sure. I will have to look again in future when I can next get my hands on this book.

It was was published in 2007, almost ten years ago.

Unfortunately it's far too weak a connection on just 12 or even 25 markers. Many times the matches are just due to both men sharing many modal values. SNPs and 111-str are they way to go, and I don't believe those were commercially accessible back then, or at least they were in their infancy.


DF27+ ZZ12+ FGC20747+ FGC20767+ FGC20761+ appears to be a Sephardic cluster but doesn't appear related to Scotland for example.

EastAnglian
04-22-2016, 07:22 AM
I would be inclined to think so but the Normans did not bring any lineages from Iberia to the British Isles.


Let's see, where do we find DF27 in Europe?

France
Denmark
Brittany

So not beyond the realms of possibility.

moesan
04-22-2016, 04:14 PM
I would think nothing of it except for the common ancestry with the Scottish Iberian Y-DNA matches that only have common ancestry going back to the 11th century or so.

If they were not Jews then how else would Iberian DNA have arrived in Scotland, I wonder?

True but if those Americans can document their ancestry back to Scotland then I am sure we can believe them.

So they are not always a reliable means of determining a common paternal anestor?



I made only general remarks, I did not read the book.
- what are the %s of "Jewidh" or "Iberian" HT's among the total supposed Scottish persons involved in the survey?
- "Iberian DNA"? It's their thought. I repeat I don't rely too much upon STR's, I prefer SNP's by far; too less STR's markers CANNOT certify either Iberian or Scottish type of Haplo. SI if we rely on their genealogic researches, I don't rely on their genetic research concerning close affiliation.
Concenring Jews in Scotland, I find curious they kept on as cryto-Jews if Scotland was so open to Jews... But who knows?
All this is just my thoughts for now, Ihave no sound opinion, waiting to know more.
Thanks for answer.

moesan
04-22-2016, 04:20 PM
Let's see, where do we find DF27 in Europe?

France
Denmark
Brittany

So not beyond the realms of possibility.

Possible. But perhaps they did not wait Normans to reach these lands at low levels. I'm almost sure DF27 reached Iberia through France, coming from the bulk of P312, East France and Southern Germany.

Menchaca
04-23-2016, 03:42 AM
According to this site:

http://jewishdna.net/index.html

Ashkenazy Jews with R1b account for 10-11% of the total, approximately.

Check out what is mentioned about the R1b-FGC20761 branch not coming from the Middle East and probably originating in Iberia from converts to Judaism:

http://jewishdna.net/R1b-FGC20761.html

Also take a look at the following page, where some connections are mentioned between Jews in Lithuania an Hispanics in the US and with Mexicans from the state of Nuevo León (settled in part by Crypto jews):

http://khazaria.com/Sephardim-baltics.html


If Crypto Jews ended up in modern Mexico and their relatives ended up in Lithuania, why wouldn't some settle down in Scotland? I expect a few did.

Menchaca

ChrisR
04-23-2016, 06:21 AM
Just to bring in the perspective of J2 since one of the major haplogroups in Jewish populations, one would expect this Hg (together with G, E1b, J1, R1a) in any substantial Crypto-Jewish population. There is only one greater Scottish J2 cluster: J2a PF4610>L26>Z6064>Z6063>Z6057>SK1363>PF7413>Z35789>Z35794 with surnames Montgomery, Salmond, Collett, Cummins, Gilbert. They have English as well Hungarian matches in Roman Time, so likely a Roman era expansion. AFAIR any other J2 lineages in Scotland seem late expansions without much presence.
Wim Penninx (http://jewishdna.net) has done a lot of research on Jewish Y-DNA haplotype clustering, if his data does not have Scottish kits there is probably no reason to believe in a "hidden" Jewish population substrata in Scots.

David Mc
04-23-2016, 06:27 AM
And this is exactly what the authors of the book allude to, that crypto-Judaism influenced these developments within Scotland. They also have another book which seems to suggest similar notions about the development of Protestantism in England, including suggestions that people like Cromwell may have been Jewish.

I'm not entirely sure whether you are agreeing with the authors or with my post, but from a religious and historical point of view they are writing nonsense here... on both the Scottish and English fronts. Cromwell wasn't strictly speaking a Puritan. He was more of an early congregationalist. In truth, the Presbyterians ended up seeing him as a betrayer following his reneging on promises made to them during the alliance against Charles. Anyone who is at all familiar with Cromwell will know that he was very much operating our of a Reformed (albeit congregationalist) worldview. While he certainly wanted to provide a safe-haven for Jewish communities in England, he also wanted to ensure that preachers were trained and sent to said communities to help them understand and accept the Christian faith. Again, he was a not a "crypto-Jew."

George Chandler
04-23-2016, 05:13 PM
Something to consider too is that even if a quarter of the Jewish population is R1b.. the post Roman designation of who is recognized as being "Jewish" is if the person has a Jewish mother or they have converted to Judaism which in my opinion will can explain much of the R1b. That isn't to say there isn't some old family lines of R1b within the Jewish community but it's a mistake to try and connect all of the Scottish R1b's with some sort of crypto diaspora and then somehow trying to connect them with the ancient Hebrews. This has gone on for sometime with attempts to link the throne of Scotland with the biblical King David. In order to establish that there was an ancient R1b haplogroup found within the tribal times of the ancient Hebrews there are certain things that have to be proven..connections to the Levites and Cohen's..other Hebrew tribal connections..ancient remains..and the Bedouin tribes.

George

Agamemnon
04-23-2016, 06:19 PM
The only branch of R1b I can think of which might fit the bill here is FGC11986 - which is a branch of DF13 - since it's found in AJs (under the A555 subclade) and is rather common in Scotland (throughout the British Isles in fact).

George Chandler
04-23-2016, 07:19 PM
The Z251 movements are interesting. It would be interesting to find some older Jewish branches that could be tied together.

alan
04-23-2016, 07:46 PM
I havent read this thread but for Scotland it should be noted that the southern area featured or bordered one of the major militarised areas of the Roman empire - Hadrians wall - where soldiers from all over the empire may have left their genetic mark. This is now the Anglo-Scottish border area (the wall is actually all within England although v close to Scotland at its west end). After the fall of the Rome some sub-Roman British-Celtic territories straddled both sides of the wall - like the Rheged in the west. The western half of this area in particular around Cumbria and SW Scotland remained British Celtic speaking late despite some pockets of Irish, Gael-Norse, Angles, Danes and Normans. Both sides of the border later became the zone of the Border Reavers in High Medieval times.

I suspect this rough hilly lawless zone had a fair amount of ancient British blood within its mix despite the later accretions from a number of peoples and I suspect that this once highly militarised area along the Roman Wall (and to a much more temporary extent further north) provided an unusually high chance of genes from all over the Roman empire being left behind in the local populations. Indeed I did read many years ago that there are an enhanced amount of 'exotic' y-lines in these Borders families. Even Montgomery and Scott mentioned above are borders people.

Also note too that France was long part of the Roman empire and given the Norman French input into southern and eastern Scotland it is entirely possible that 'exotic' yDNA that arrived in France in the days of the Roman empire could 1000 years later have been transported to Scotland with Normans etc.

Joe B
04-23-2016, 08:55 PM
The only branch of R1b I can think of which might fit the bill here is FGC11986 - which is a branch of DF13 - since it's found in AJs (under the A555 subclade) and is rather common in Scotland (throughout the British Isles in fact).Some of the more common R1b subclades found in Jewish lineages are from the basal branches of the R1b tree. They are very specific branches of the R1b-V88, R1b-PF7563, R1b-Y4362 (L277) and R1b-L584 subclades. Scotland and the Isles have been well surveyed and we are just not seeing any (1 or 2) significant numbers of these R1b basal subclades or the specific branches more commonly found in Jews.

ThirdTerm
04-23-2016, 09:30 PM
Check out what is mentioned about the R1b-FGC20761 branch not coming from the Middle East and probably originating in Iberia from converts to Judaism:

http://jewishdna.net/R1b-FGC20761.html


http://s31.postimg.org/6f6u8tymz/imageedit_3032_4401300005.png

R1b-DF27 arrived Spain from the 1800 to 1300 BCE and DF27 cannot be specifically defined as a Jewish subclade as it is a very common Y chromosome clade of paternal lineages in Western Europe. Some Jewish families may accidentally carry DF27, which their ancestors picked up in Spain, but the vast majority of R1b-DF27 people are non-Jews.



It is hard to say when exactly DF27 entered Iberia. Considering its overwhelming presence in the peninsula and in south-west France, it is likely that DF27 arrived early, during the 1800 to 1300 BCE period, and perhaps even earlier, if R1b adventurers penetrated the Bell Beaker culture, as they appear to have done all over Western Europe from 2300 BCE to 1800 BCE. The Atlantic Bronze Age could correspond to the period when DF27 radiated more evenly around Iberia and ended up, following Atlantic trade routes, all the way to the British Isles, the Netherlands and western Norway (where M153 and SRY2728 make up about 1% of the population).
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#DF27


The authors listed Cowan, Caldwell, Christie, and Kennedy as possible Jewish surnames, which shows that this book is largely fictional or pseudoscientific. The Cowan surname may not be Jewish at all, even though it sounds similar to Kohane. The Cowan family belonged to R-M269 and more than 100 million European men carry this R1b haplogroup extremely common in Western Europe.



Readers will find some elements of this book demonstrate a commendable degree of scholarship, but even in a cursory examination the inferential evidence will be seen as very weak. The book is also plagued with poor indexing and footnotes, poor organization and poor cross referencing, making it virtually impossible to follow the authors’ lines of reasoning and arguments in a coherent way. It is not my intent to provide an exhaustive commentary on those weaknesses. My principal interest is in how they have used the Cowan surname and Cowan Family Tree DNA Project data in support of their hypothesis. I will examine closely their treatment of the historic John Cowane of Stirling as well as their association of the Cowan surname with Melungeon communities of the Appalachian regions of the United States. The use of Y-DNA from the Melungeon group combined with Y-DNA results of the Cowan surname to infer genetic origins of early Scottish population groups will also be examined.
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~valorie/review-when_scotland_was_jewish.htm

AJL
04-23-2016, 09:54 PM
I havent read this thread but for Scotland it should be noted that the southern area featured or bordered one of the major militarised areas of the Roman empire - Hadrians wall - where soldiers from all over the empire may have left their genetic mark.

We've actually seen some R1a-F1345 occur very sparsely in Galloway, the Borders, and the former area of the Brigantes. This subclade is a distant neighbour of West Asian R1a-Z94 groups that include Ashkenazi Levites, Karachay/Balkars, and Palestinians. It appears this rare group may have made its way to Britain in the form of Sarmatian auxiliaries.

Of course for some time I have suspected my own E-V13 line from near Romaldkirk, where there were Dacian auxiliaries, came from the Balkans a couple of thousand years ago.

Agamemnon
04-23-2016, 11:19 PM
Some of the more common R1b subclades found in Jewish lineages are from the basal branches of the R1b tree. They are very specific branches of the R1b-V88, R1b-PF7563, R1b-Y4362 (L277) and R1b-L584 subclades. Scotland and the Isles have been well surveyed and we are just not seeing any (1 or 2) significant numbers of these R1b basal subclades or the specific branches more commonly found in Jews.

My point exactly, hence my initial statement: Knowing a thing or two about the R1b branches common in Jews, this theory is as dead as a dodo.

alan
04-26-2016, 08:15 PM
We've actually seen some R1a-F1345 occur very sparsely in Galloway, the Borders, and the former area of the Brigantes. This subclade is a distant neighbour of West Asian R1a-Z94 groups that include Ashkenazi Levites, Karachay/Balkars, and Palestinians. It appears this rare group may have made its way to Britain in the form of Sarmatian auxiliaries.

Of course for some time I have suspected my own E-V13 line from near Romaldkirk, where there were Dacian auxiliaries, came from the Balkans a couple of thousand years ago.

Neil Oliver an TV archaeologist and historian did a DNA test at one time. He is from southern Scotland and I believe Oliver is a surname from the Anglo-Scottish border. He came up with some 'exotic' DNA with closest matches in the Balkans I think. I think his mtDNA and/or autosomal was more as expected western Scottish. I googled but cannot find the details on the web - maybe they were never specified

seferhabahir
04-26-2016, 11:04 PM
The only branch of R1b I can think of which might fit the bill here is FGC11986 - which is a branch of DF13 - since it's found in AJs (under the A555 subclade) and is rather common in Scotland (throughout the British Isles in fact).

I sincerely doubt it, if only because the British Isles pieces of FGC11986 split off from the (eventually) Jewish piece of FGC11986 quite a long time ago (probably 3500-4000 years ago) and this split predates the founding of Judaism. The SNPs and STRs separating the British Isles pieces of FGC11986 and the Ashkenazi piece of FGC11986 is pretty distinct. I suppose there is a slight possibility that early FGC11986 went to the British Isles before the split, but I don't think so. I'll stay with my theory of a separation somewhere in Central Europe with the ancestor of A555 heading south while most of FGC11986 headed north. When somebody who is not Jewish but with the SNPs and STRs found in the A555 lineage shows up, I might be willing to reassess this. Thierry in France (see DPVGV in ySearch) gets kind of close and looks like some kind of middle road test result between the British Isles FGC11986 and Jewish A555. Could be a remnant of an ancestor of A555 who stayed in Central Europe while others went South or to the Levant and becoming genetically isolated. Of course I have a bit of a bias in all of this (look at my SNPs below).

{Note: I never bought the book after reading the scathing reviews when it was published, and suggest that it be ignored. Lots of wishful thinking and not much, if any, scientific analysis.)

ADW_1981
04-27-2016, 02:35 PM
Has anyone investigated this fairly reputable Rabbi who carried a L21 lineage? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Kimhi

There are several independant lineages across several countries who all share the same. How does it relate to the current L21+ Jewish cluster? Origin would be Spain, not northern Europe.

Lugus
04-27-2016, 03:51 PM
My point exactly, hence my initial statement: Knowing a thing or two about the R1b branches common in Jews, this theory is as dead as a dodo.

So how did Jews (both Ashkenazi and Sephardic) get R1b? Some of it seems to have a Portuguese or Iberian connection.

seferhabahir
04-27-2016, 03:55 PM
Has anyone investigated this fairly reputable Rabbi who carried a L21 lineage? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Kimhi

There are several independant lineages across several countries who all share the same. How does it relate to the current L21+ Jewish cluster? Origin would be Spain, not northern Europe.

I looked at all the testers who claimed descent from this rabbi a few years ago. I think maybe I posted this on the old DNA-Forum. There were four testers that claimed descent, two of them were L21 and two were not (I can't remember what, maybe P312+ L21-). The STRs indicate that those four are not at all related to the L21+ Jewish cluster, and looks more like they were descended from converts (perhaps in Roman Empire period, given the much more close STR relationships to other British Isles kits who are L21. The key STR value for A555 Jewish subgroup is DYS388=11 (the four kits in question were DYS388=12).

seferhabahir
04-27-2016, 04:19 PM
So how did Jews (both Ashkenazi and Sephardic) get R1b? Some of it seems to have a Portuguese or Iberian connection.

There are lots of different answers, and it depends on what R1b haplogroup you want to discuss. In general, there are probably two major possibilities.

1) A more recent European conversion into Judaism (like the Kimchi cases above and could have been in England, or Spain, or France, or Italy, or Sardinia, or Greece, or Sicily or ...)

2) An earlier Levant or Caucasus beginning (either a Middle Eastern Assyrian connection such as L584 or perhaps P7562 which predates L23, or a maritime transplantation from Europe such as what I have proposed for A555 due to Phoenicians or Sea Peoples or some other sea trade thing...)

There is no L21 or DF13 in the Middle East, so for the case of a 4000 year old genetically isolated group like the A555 piece of FGC11986 under L21 and DF13, we need to figure out if, when and how somebody left Europe, went to Middle East, and then ended up back in Europe. The fact that a group like A555 ended up exactly in the same place (the Rhineland) they started from 3000 years earlier confuses a lot of people, and leads them to jump to a conclusion that they never left in the first place. I am a doubter of that scenario, due to the STR and SNP evidence, and prefer something like a Sherden Sea Peoples hypothesis linking Sardinian Bell Beaker to sites in the Levant as a better explanation.

ADW_1981
04-27-2016, 04:55 PM
I looked at all the testers who claimed descent from this rabbi a few years ago. I think maybe I posted this on the old DNA-Forum. There were four testers that claimed descent, two of them were L21 and two were not (I can't remember what, maybe P312+ L21-). The STRs indicate that those four are not at all related to the L21+ Jewish cluster, and looks more like they were descended from converts (perhaps in Roman Empire period, given the much more close STR relationships to other British Isles kits who are L21. The key STR value for A555 Jewish subgroup is DYS388=11 (the four kits in question were DYS388=12).

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Sephardic_heritage/default.aspx?section=yresults

The fellows from Greece/Bulgaria are L21+, and the fellows from Italy/Turkey don't have SNP data that I can see. They all only have 12 str tested and the latter two kits are off by 1 STR. That can't rule out a common ancestor to 1100AD or thereabouts, or that they are even L21-. I may be missing additional kits that have more STR tested.

Lugus
04-27-2016, 04:59 PM
There are lots of different answers, and it depends on what R1b haplogroup you want to discuss.

Let's take for example my own ZZ12 branch of DF27. If you look at Alex Williamson's tree you'll see there a big Jewish cluster including a Turkish Jew. What do you think of that group?

ADW_1981
04-27-2016, 05:01 PM
There is no L21 or DF13 in the Middle East, so for the case of a 4000 year old genetically isolated group like the A555 piece of FGC11986 under L21 and DF13, we need to figure out if, when and how somebody left Europe, went to Middle East, and then ended up back in Europe. The fact that a group like A555 ended up exactly in the same place (the Rhineland) they started from 3000 years earlier confuses a lot of people, and leads them to jump to a conclusion that they never left in the first place. I am a doubter of that scenario, due to the STR and SNP evidence, and prefer something like a Sherden Sea Peoples hypothesis linking Sardinian Bell Beaker to sites in the Levant as a better explanation.

That we know of.... There were a number of P312+ kits that showed up in a recent Dagestan study that had Palestinian data, and I am aware of at least 1 sample of P312 (xU152) showing up in Jordan (Myres 2010). Now I don't suspect R1b were the "Fertile crescent agriculturaliststs", though the R1b-V88 needs an explanation, I suspect the Bronze Age brought a swarm of various YDNA to the region, despite a similar autosomal profile appearing over time.

seferhabahir
04-27-2016, 05:38 PM
That we know of....

Yes, I forgot to say that. I usually do, though and am patiently waiting for someone to dig up a P312 or L21 or DF13 body in the Middle East.

seferhabahir
04-27-2016, 06:11 PM
Let's take for example my own ZZ12 branch of DF27. If you look at Alex Williamson's tree you'll see there a big Jewish cluster including a Turkish Jew. What do you think of that group?

I haven't ever studied that branch. A cursory glance hints that the guys on the left (under SNP FGC20764) look like a combination of Ashkenazi and Sephardi groupings, with the guys over toward the left looking like a set of recently diverged Ashkenazi lineages, and and the guys over on the right looking like a set of Sephardi or Portuguese conversos, and with the Turkish guy in the middle, but sharing a large block of SNPs with the Ashkenazi lines.

Since there are not a lot of SNPs separating the Turkish guy from the Ashkenazi guys, I would think that these guys all represent some kind of Iberian peninsula Jewish group, and that in 1492 or 1496 when the Jews were expelled from Spain and Portugal, some of them (probably Esteves and Fernandes) converted to Christianity, the Turkish guy went to Turkey (is he Jewish?), and the Ashkenazi guys toward the left all went to France or Germany or Poland to be absorbed into Ashkenazi communities (a common occurrence). This is pretty consistent with history and the large group of SNPs that Esteves and Fernandes share with the Turkish and Ashkenazi guys support it

Simoes, Mello and Pool further off to the right are older and maybe not part of any kind of Jewish history in Iberia but a precursor as they only seem to share FGC20767 and FGC20770. With about 30 or more SNPs linking the presumed Jewish types, then one has to ask how that group ended up in Iberia. It could be a scenario similar to A555 (a trip to the Levant on a boat from Southern Europe several thousand years ago), but then this group is maybe descended from someone who made his way to Iberia via North Africa instead of to the Rhineland via Italy and the Alps. I'm only guessing never having looked at this group until 15 minutes ago.

Lugus
04-27-2016, 07:07 PM
I think you should also consider the straightforward possibility that all these Jewish guys, including yourself, are just descendants of European converts to Judaism at different times in the past. Do you find that hard to accept?

Lugus
04-27-2016, 07:40 PM
I would also like to hear Agamemnon's opinion on this.

Agamemnon
04-28-2016, 12:01 AM
So how did Jews (both Ashkenazi and Sephardic) get R1b? Some of it seems to have a Portuguese or Iberian connection.

Like serferhabahir said, it depends which kind of R1b you're referring to. For instance, I suspect most of the Z2103 Jews have more to do with the Hittites and Sea Peoples than recent converts. Other branches (such as the Qimhi and Yarden lineages under DF27) are likely to have entered the community with converts during the diaspora, others still (under U152 for instance) might have entered the community with converts prior to the diaspora. Going back to the Qimhi lineage, I think the "Ivanhoe" cluster (U106>Z381>Z301>L48>L47>Z159>S3251>FGC8579>FGC8578) is a cautionary tale in that the current thinking is that the branch is Sephardic in origin despite the fact that the original assumption revolved around this lineage being Ashkenazi and having made its way into the Jewish community via a German convert (this was the straightforward explanation for a long time). It seems to me that the number of converts to Judaism during the Middle Ages could probably be counted on the fingers of one hand, so we should expect the lineages potentially tied to converts to have convoluted and tortuous stories to tell.

ADW_1981
04-28-2016, 02:04 AM
Like serferhabahir said, it depends which kind of R1b you're referring to. For instance, I suspect most of the Z2103 Jews have more to do with the Hittites and Sea Peoples than recent converts. Other branches (such as the Qimhi and Yarden lineages under DF27) are likely to have entered the community with converts during the diaspora, others still (under U152 for instance) might have entered the community with converts prior to the diaspora. Going back to the Qimhi lineage, I think the "Ivanhoe" cluster (U106>Z381>Z301>L48>L47>Z159>S3251>FGC8579>FGC8578) is a cautionary tale in that the current thinking is that the branch is Sephardic in origin despite the fact that the original assumption revolved around this lineage being Ashkenazi and having made its way into the Jewish community via a German convert (this was the straightforward explanation for a long time). It seems to me that the number of converts to Judaism during the Middle Ages could probably be counted on the fingers of one hand, so we should expect the lineages potentially tied to converts to have convoluted and tortuous stories to tell.

Possibly, but recall there is a very valid, and quite robust cluster of DF27 in Armenia. When we consider a region of the Middle East "well sampled", this is still a far cry from a sampling from UK or Ireland. It is largely untested waters.

If they are German converts, where are all the I1 Ashkenazi? Brits and Germans will have a good 15-20% of their YDNA matches as part of this group.

seferhabahir
04-28-2016, 10:59 AM
I think you should also consider the straightforward possibility that all these Jewish guys, including yourself, are just descendants of European converts to Judaism at different times in the past. Do you find that hard to accept?

OK, since you asked, here is my reply.

There isn't anything hard to accept about being descended from European converts, and I don't have an agenda about whether or not I descend from a convert (and maybe I was), but a recent European conversion doesn't make sense (at least for my A555 Y-DNA line) given what I see in the SNP evidence. I'm trying to investigate this scientifically. Some Y-DNA Jewish clusters are probably the result of European conversion, but not all of them. How would you explain a medieval European conversion scenario when there are over 60 FGC SNPs that appear to be unique only to the Ashkenazi testers and not found in any other lines under FGC11986?

Simplified conversion scenarios in Europe made more sense (sort of) four years ago when all we knew was that the TMRCA for the Ashkenazi L21 looked to be around 1300 CE (like a lot of other Ashkenazi clusters, some of which probably did have a founder who was a convert), and one could surmise maybe some European males converted back then, leading to all the Jewish guys in a particular cluster. However, as Agamemnon points out, conversions in the Middle Ages were probably few and far between. I'm sure there were some, and when there were we would then find non-Jews among the Y-DNA matches. All of my matches out past 12 STR markers are Ashkenazi and point to a very isolated genetic group consistent with the SNP evidence.

So, one has to come up with a reason why the SNP data points to a divergence way before there were any Jews in Europe, at least in my lineage and why there are no non-Jewish testers with those 60 SNPs. I'm just trying to be logical about what the FGC and Big Y tests are saying from a chronological perspective. We are surely descendants of some pretty unique guy in the past, but if it was 3000 years ago, he likely wasn't a European convert. He might have been a Middle Eastern Sea Peoples or Philistine or Canaanite convert as has been discussed elsewhere on this forum.

I'm sure I have lots of converts in my overall ancestry from the Roman Empire and the Mediterranean given my autosomal affinities with Sicilians, Sardinians, Italians, and Greeks, but in the "specific" case of my paternal L21 Y-DNA lineage, I have serious doubts about a "recent" conversion event. I think it would make sense that when a huge block of unique SNPs exist for a Jewish cluster, it points to something other than a recent European conversion event, which is why I'm trying to put the puzzle pieces together in ways that make sense.

Lugus
04-28-2016, 12:56 PM
Like serferhabahir said, it depends which kind of R1b you're referring to. For instance, I suspect most of the Z2103 Jews have more to do with the Hittites and Sea Peoples than recent converts. Other branches (such as the Qimhi and Yarden lineages under DF27) are likely to have entered the community with converts during the diaspora, others still (under U152 for instance) might have entered the community with converts prior to the diaspora. Going back to the Qimhi lineage, I think the "Ivanhoe" cluster (U106>Z381>Z301>L48>L47>Z159>S3251>FGC8579>FGC8578) is a cautionary tale in that the current thinking is that the branch is Sephardic in origin despite the fact that the original assumption revolved around this lineage being Ashkenazi and having made its way into the Jewish community via a German convert (this was the straightforward explanation for a long time). It seems to me that the number of converts to Judaism during the Middle Ages could probably be counted on the fingers of one hand, so we should expect the lineages potentially tied to converts to have convoluted and tortuous stories to tell.

What you say makes much more sense and correlates with the information we have from historical sources. Of course we can’t reject cases of adoption or other less nice possibilities like slavery in ancient times, servitude, non-paternity events or rape.

Back to conversion, believe it or not there were always people willing to convert to the Jewish faith and in ancient times Judaism was probably the first missionary religion. But also in the Middle Ages there’s evidence of conversion, both from Jewish and non-Jewish sources. And it seems many of those converts were churchmen. My favorite case is Obadiah the Proselyte, who was a Norman from Italy and a musician.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obadiah_the_Proselyte

Still regarding the Middle Ages, see the article “Proselytes” in the Encyclopaedia Judaica, 2nd ed., vol. 16 p. 591-592:


“The historical sources mention isolated cases only. However, the fact that such cases recurred in every generation, as well as the preachings and admonitions by the heads of Church against Judaizing and the many regulations and decrees they issued to prevent this danger, testifies to the persistence of the phenomenon, at least to a limited extent.”

Lugus
04-28-2016, 01:05 PM
Possibly, but recall there is a very valid, and quite robust cluster of DF27 in Armenia. When we consider a region of the Middle East "well sampled", this is still a far cry from a sampling from UK or Ireland. It is largely untested waters.

If they are German converts, where are all the I1 Ashkenazi? Brits and Germans will have a good 15-20% of their YDNA matches as part of this group.

There are also I1 Jews. I know because once I was searching for something else online and bumped into one. But there are also U106 Jews and R1a Z284. Just look at the FTDNA projects.

The cases of P312 in Turkey and Armenia are probably what remains of the Galatians. They cluster nicely with Western European samples.

Anath
04-28-2016, 01:13 PM
My maternal grandpas surname which is quite distinctive.. Annand, was featured in that book and i found it very hard to believe that it was of 'jewish' origin, as i know there is a part of Scotland called 'Annandale' named after the river Annan which has proto-celtic origins for the word 'water'.
So unless Jews who went to Scotland took names and surnames from parts of Scotland already in order to hide themselves, i really don't know.. i believe my grandpa would have the same y-dna as Clan Schaw (as they married Annands in the 1300s and were written as being cousins to them) though and i've been thinking about asking my male 2nd cousin to give a sample to finally know what we are, his the only one left who can.. but just our luck, we'd just be the most common y-dna in Scotland, R-M343 :)

Lugus
04-28-2016, 01:23 PM
OK, since you asked, here is my reply.

There isn't anything hard to accept about being descended from European converts, and I don't have an agenda about whether or not I descend from a convert (and maybe I was), but a recent European conversion doesn't make sense (at least for my A555 Y-DNA line) given what I see in the SNP evidence. I'm trying to investigate this scientifically. Some Y-DNA Jewish clusters are probably the result of European conversion, but not all of them. How would you explain a medieval European conversion scenario when there are over 60 FGC SNPs that appear to be unique only to the Ashkenazi testers and not found in any other lines under FGC11986?

Simplified conversion scenarios in Europe made more sense (sort of) four years ago when all we knew was that the TMRCA for the Ashkenazi L21 looked to be around 1300 CE (like a lot of other Ashkenazi clusters, some of which probably did have a founder who was a convert), and one could surmise maybe some European males converted back then, leading to all the Jewish guys in a particular cluster. However, as Agamemnon points out, conversions in the Middle Ages were probably few and far between. I'm sure there were some, and when there were we would then find non-Jews among the Y-DNA matches. All of my matches out past 12 STR markers are Ashkenazi and point to a very isolated genetic group consistent with the SNP evidence.

So, one has to come up with a reason why the SNP data points to a divergence way before there were any Jews in Europe, at least in my lineage and why there are no non-Jewish testers with those 60 SNPs. I'm just trying to be logical about what the FGC and Big Y tests are saying from a chronological perspective. We are surely descendants of some pretty unique guy in the past, but if it was 3000 years ago, he likely wasn't a European convert. He might have been a Middle Eastern Sea Peoples or Philistine or Canaanite convert as has been discussed elsewhere on this forum.

I'm sure I have lots of converts in my overall ancestry from the Roman Empire and the Mediterranean given my autosomal affinities with Sicilians, Sardinians, Italians, and Greeks, but in the "specific" case of my paternal L21 Y-DNA lineage, I have serious doubts about a "recent" conversion event. I think it would make sense that when a huge block of unique SNPs exist for a Jewish cluster, it points to something other than a recent European conversion event, which is why I'm trying to put the puzzle pieces together in ways that make sense.

I also don't have any agenda. I'm just trying to make sense of things according to all the other sources we have. L21 Philistine or Canaanite doesn't make much sense to me at this point but let's wait for more future clues.

ADW_1981
04-28-2016, 01:34 PM
There are also I1 Jews. I know because once I was searching for something else online and bumped into one. But there are also U106 Jews and R1a Z284. Just look at the FTDNA projects.

The cases of P312 in Turkey and Armenia are probably what remains of the Galatians. They cluster nicely with Western European samples.

A lot of people join those projects and aren't part of the group. There may be the occasional I1 Jewish man, but nowhere remotely close to the level of R1b in Ashkenazi or Sephardic. My point is that DF27 was far east into Turkey, probably at the time of Galatians, but we can't refute an earlier period as well. My other point is that the conversions likely happened in southern Europe, not northern Europe where I1 rates are higher.

Lugus
04-28-2016, 02:08 PM
My other point is that the conversions likely happened in southern Europe, not northern Europe where I1 rates are higher.

I think so too but we need more research. I also think a conversion almost always entailed emigration to some far away land and that could explain finding Iberian lineages in eastern Europe. But let's put things in perspective: only about 10% of Ashkenazi Jews are R1b. By the way, I see now that according to Eupedia, I1 is found in 4% of Ashkenazi and 1% of Sephardi Jews. My father-in-law is J2 M172.

ADW_1981
04-28-2016, 03:37 PM
I'm extremely skeptical of I1 at 4%. I went to Eupedia and I can't find any citation and it's just labeled "I" which would include of course the West Asian I2c which has turned up in Ashkenazi.

Lugus
04-28-2016, 04:10 PM
I'm extremely skeptical of I1 at 4%. I went to Eupedia and I can't find any citation and it's just labeled "I" which would include of course the West Asian I2c which has turned up in Ashkenazi.

You're right.

Agamemnon
04-29-2016, 01:29 AM
Relating to what was said above, DF27 being related to the Galatians is a definite possibility, though it isn't exactly likely (at least not as far as the Qimhi and Yarden lineages are of concern), U152 is a more serious contender for this scenario as it is much more common in Western Jews (both Ashkenazi and Sephardic), the Galatians were employed as mercenaries by the Ptolemaic dynasty as well as the Seleucids, then U152 also could have arrived in Judea with the Roman legions, it isn't exactly hard to picture a legionary falling in love with a local woman and marrying her (which would've been synonymous with conversion, since the standard for jewishness was patrilineal back then). This scenario could potentially account for some of the DF27 as well, since we know of at least two legions garrisoned in Judea which were raised in Hispania, one of which (Legio IX Hispana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legio_IX_Hispana)) was probably soundly defeated by the Jews during the Bar Kokhba revolt. Another legion (Legio XXII Deiotariana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legio_XXII_Deiotariana)) which was garrisoned in Judea and in all likeliness annihilated by the Jewish rebels was primarily made up of Galatian recruits, so here's another potential pathway for U152.
And then, of course, if we accept that most of the Mediterranean admixture in Western Jews was Italian, U152 could've made its way into the Jewish community with Italian converts... However I find it more likely that the admixture was Greek and Aegean in origin, as this makes more sense from a historical, linguistic and genetic standpoint.

Also, there is a specifically Ashkenazi cluster under I2-M223: I2-Y11261 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y11261) (TMRCA ~2400 yBP)
But again, this lineage is quite rare among Jews, even if we could reasonably assume it entered the community via a German convert for the time being.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
04-29-2016, 05:47 AM
I'm in Wales. I just posted on another thread that my Britain's DNA results listed Ashkenazi Jewish but with the comment this could indicate a shared ancestry with another source?

9073

Lugus
04-29-2016, 07:30 AM
Relating to what was said above, DF27 being related to the Galatians is a definite possibility, though it isn't exactly likely (at least not as far as the Qimhi and Yarden lineages are of concern), U152 is a more serious contender for this scenario as it is much more common in Western Jews (both Ashkenazi and Sephardic), the Galatians were employed as mercenaries by the Ptolemaic dynasty as well as the Seleucids, then U152 also could have arrived in Judea with the Roman legions, it isn't exactly hard to picture a legionary falling in love with a local woman and marrying her (which would've been synonymous with conversion, since the standard for jewishness was patrilineal back then). This scenario could potentially account for some of the DF27 as well, since we know of at least two legions garrisoned in Judea which were raised in Hispania, one of which (Legio IX Hispana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legio_IX_Hispana)) was probably soundly defeated by the Jews during the Bar Kokhba revolt. Another legion (Legio XXII Deiotariana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legio_XXII_Deiotariana)) which was garrisoned in Judea and in all likeliness annihilated by the Jewish rebels was primarily made up of Galatian recruits, so here's another potential pathway for U152.
And then, of course, if we accept that most of the Mediterranean admixture in Western Jews was Italian, U152 could've made its way into the Jewish community with Italian converts... However I find it more likely that the admixture was Greek and Aegean in origin, as this makes more sense from a historical, linguistic and genetic standpoint.

Also, there is a specifically Ashkenazi cluster under I2-M223: I2-Y11261 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y11261) (TMRCA ~2400 yBP)
But again, this lineage is quite rare among Jews, even if we could reasonably assume it entered the community via a German convert for the time being.

I hadn't thought about that and it's quite plausible. Soldiers always leave offspring behind and the Roman presence was very long. Also both after 70 and 135 there were multitudes of Jewish slaves, most of them probably women. The matrilineal descent principle would consider their children Jewish no matter who the father was.

Lugus
04-29-2016, 07:57 AM
Talking about Jewish I1:

http://jewishdna.net/I1-Z140.html

Learning_Genetics
08-17-2019, 08:39 AM
Now after many years I finally have my hands on a copy of the book. Yes, the theory is that through successive waves of immigration a lot of R1b Jews came to settle in Scotland. The migration started in early part of the Middle Ages and continued well into the 1500s as Jews were forced out of the continent for many reasons.

They tested people in the USA with Scottish paternal lines. The DNA tests were conducted around 1999 to the year 2000.

None of these tests were conducted beyond the 12 marker level, some included tests on a 9 marker level.

However, the number of people in the FTDNA and YHRD databases would be much fewer at that time. Would that influence the implications of the results?

In other words, is it possible that the results of a 12 markers test back then in 1999 or 2000 may have been more indicative of a connection between Jews and Scots than if the test were conducted today?

When the tests were conducted they were measured against FTDNA and YHRD databases of those years.

Results indicated that a lot of these Scots with surnames like Alexander, Forbes, Bruce, Campbell, Gordon, Stewart, Caldwell, Kennedy, Leslie, Fraser, Cowan and Christie matched with Spanish, Portuguese speaking people in Iberia and Latin America.

What I am trying to determine is how far back the connection could be. If there is a definite Y-DNA connection in the last 1,000 years then it is certainly possible that Jews could have migrated to Scotland. If the connection is much further back i.e. between Iberians and proto-Celts in Scotland 2,000 or so years ago then the theory becomes less plausible.

I would be very interesting in the analysis of our experts here.

MacUalraig
08-21-2019, 02:58 PM
Now after many years I finally have my hands on a copy of the book. Yes, the theory is that through successive waves of immigration a lot of R1b Jews came to settle in Scotland. The migration started in early part of the Middle Ages and continued well into the 1500s as Jews were forced out of the continent for many reasons.

They tested people in the USA with Scottish paternal lines. The DNA tests were conducted around 1999 to the year 2000.

None of these tests were conducted beyond the 12 marker level, some included tests on a 9 marker level.

However, the number of people in the FTDNA and YHRD databases would be much fewer at that time. Would that influence the implications of the results?

In other words, is it possible that the results of a 12 markers test back then in 1999 or 2000 may have been more indicative of a connection between Jews and Scots than if the test were conducted today?

When the tests were conducted they were measured against FTDNA and YHRD databases of those years.

Results indicated that a lot of these Scots with surnames like Alexander, Forbes, Bruce, Campbell, Gordon, Stewart, Caldwell, Kennedy, Leslie, Fraser, Cowan and Christie matched with Spanish, Portuguese speaking people in Iberia and Latin America.

What I am trying to determine is how far back the connection could be. If there is a definite Y-DNA connection in the last 1,000 years then it is certainly possible that Jews could have migrated to Scotland. If the connection is much further back i.e. between Iberians and proto-Celts in Scotland 2,000 or so years ago then the theory becomes less plausible.

I would be very interesting in the analysis of our experts here.

It's nonsense. The dominant Scottish Kennedy lines are M222 (hence probably restricted to Scotland and Ireland for several thousand years) plus a scattering of other Isles oriented ones.

mildlycurly
08-29-2019, 08:43 PM
R1b is not a Jewish haplogroup. Just because it originated in Western Asia doesn't make it Jewish.

A lot of Spaniards have R1b due to historic migrations. Yes, many are of Sephardic ancestry, but that's like saying the Scots must be be black because many Spaniards have African ancestry. The claims that some Scottish and Irish kings were descended from King David or the tribe of Dan appear to be just legend.