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Jon
04-24-2016, 03:51 PM
Hi All,

Just came across this, by Dr. Joe Flood, who seems to have impressive credentials. Some very interesting stuff:

https://www.academia.edu/24686284/The_phylogenealogy_of_R-L21_four_and_a_half_millennia_of_expansion_and_red istribution

04-25-2016, 09:44 AM
He relies much on distribution data... On it's face appears to be conjecture based on primarily on questionable data.

rms2
04-26-2016, 01:39 PM
There's some dubious stuff in there, some of which I have seen Joe post here at Anthrogenica before. He thinks L21 arose in a "Beaker colony" in what is now SW England, and, even worse, he thinks U106 arose in what is now SE England.

TigerMW
05-03-2016, 02:52 PM
Dr. Flood has chosen to engage on the R1b-L21-project yahoo group.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-L21-Project/conversations/messages/31891

Flood's paper, p. 2 -
"The distributional evidence for a British origin for L21 around 2500 BC is compelling. Most likely the mutation originated in the large Beaker colony in south-west Britain, where many old lineages still survive. From that spread point it was carried rapidly by sea into north-west France, Ireland, north-west Spain and the Middle Rhine, which today have a high incidence of L21, and into Northern England and Scotland. Of about 45 known early Bronze branches or subclades of L21, almost all are found in Britain or in the English-speaking Diaspora. We are able to identify most of the larger subclades of L21 as ‘Atlantic’—spread throughout the Atlantic Beaker range with a distinct presence in Cornwall-Devon in the early Bronze. Continental R-L21 has origins in small random samples from the extensive English distribution. While many studies have tried to identify continental contributions to Isles populations, here we suggest that the reverse was much greater, at least in the early Bronze Age."

I'm going to see if I can ferret out the Cornwall-Devon Beakers versus the Wessex in South-Central England. I don't know if they are one and the same but if they are different then we have to consider the Wessex connections to the Rhenish folks and Unetice.

TigerMW
05-06-2016, 01:10 PM
Dr. Flood has chosen to engage on the R1b-L21-project yahoo group.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-L21-Project/conversations/messages/31891

Flood's paper, p. 2 -

I'm going to see if I can ferret out the Cornwall-Devon Beakers versus the Wessex in South-Central England. I don't know if they are one and the same but if they are different then we have to consider the Wessex connections to the Rhenish folks and Unetice.

Flood is talking about the Wessex and and Atlantic Beakers as one and the same. I'm not sure how that ties to what I think of as "Atlantic" Beakers who have been labeled rather as "Maritime" Beakers.

Wessex and the Salisbury plain look a little like South-Central England to the untrained eye (mine) but it a part of the official South West Region of England, so Sout West is the correct name.

David Mc
05-06-2016, 06:52 PM
I've just started reading through the paper. Of particular interest to me, of course, is his discussion of DF49, which he seems to associate with the Dumnonii/Damnonii/Fir Domnann. I'll admit that it makes some sense of the present day dispersal of DF49 (although he incorrectly locates the Damnonii in Argyll). I'm still not sure we have enough data to say much about tribal associations.

I'm also wondering why he sees R-L21 moving to the Rhine from the Isles rather than to the Isles of the Rhine, which makes far more sense to me. Part of the problem, which you've touched upon, Mike, is his fuzzy terminology (Atlantic Beakers?) and the absence of discussion surrounding Rhenish beakers. On page 8 Flood actually speaks of maritime colonies on the Rhine. He may not be using the word "maritime" in its technical sense but, either way, his choice of words obscures the very real differences between Maritime and Rhenish Beakers and the cultures represented by each. I don't know if this is a rhetorical choice that the author has made to further the cause of the "Celtic from the West" stance or if he is simply unaware of the distinction. Hopefully he will elaborate.

Heber
05-06-2016, 07:26 PM
I have just finished reading the paper.

I am glad someone has put so much work into trying to describe the history of L21.
I agree with Mike that is is a great platform on which to discuss the issues of L21.

I agree with many of the findings which are supported by the latest papers, POBI, Irish DNA Atlas (preliminary findings), Cassidy (Rathlin), Hallast (Y Tree Expansion), Tyler Smith (R1b expansion), Celtic from the West (1,2,3?) etc. I have issues with others eg back migrations and some continental L21.

It validates the idea that pre prints are a great way of engaging citizen scientists.

I have documented my analysis of L21 both upstream and downstream here:

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-m269/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l23/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l51/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l11/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-u106/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-p312/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-df27/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-u152-l2/

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21/

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-z253/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-z255/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-df49/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-df21/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-l513/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-c4466/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-l1335/
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/r1b-l21-df13-df41/

I will update the boards to reflect the new data.
I look forward to more ancient DNA in the Isles and Atlantic Europe and the trail from the Steppes to the Atlantic.
I believe the Balkans will be a key part of the Yamnaya downstream puzzle and Maikop the upstream and we need a paper dedicated to Bell Beaker DNA.

Heber
05-08-2016, 04:04 PM
Here is some additional regional analysis.

Atlantic DNA
http://pin.it/qTlNUyi

Britains DNA
http://pin.it/UN0XruO

England DNA
http://pin.it/ycIcKRy

Europe DNA
http://pin.it/05kjsOS

France DNA
http://pin.it/h2kFBQX

Germany DNA
http://pin.it/riJvBbW

Iberian DNA
http://pin.it/jJNoCkQ

Irish DNA
http://pin.it/R5LK0Df

Irish DNA Atlas
http://pin.it/y1NlgQx

Connacht DNA
http://pin.it/22kg8vf

Leinster DNA
http://pin.it/XMpHCbS

Midlands DNA
http://pin.it/QN3t7Ah

Munster DNA
http://pin.it/QzI73VV

Ulster DNA
http://pin.it/n6liwnn

Irish Insular Atlantic Genome
http://pin.it/fK45QoS

Isles DNA
http://pin.it/ereb0lg

People of the British Isles
http://pin.it/Lz0VuCA

CillKenny
06-04-2020, 07:15 PM
I am looking back at Joe's paper in light of what has come out in the intervening period. I have always been intrigued with the point he makes about a number of residual (or unbranching) subclades that suddenly burst into life around 2000 years ago.

"...somewhere around 100 BC, two residual subclades of L21 appeared from obscurity and began branching. They were L1335 ‘Scottish modal’ and Z255 ‘Irish Sea’, to use the STR cluster names under which they were first discovered. These were accompanied at the same time by nine equally obscure branches of major Atlantic subclades that had also been residual since the early Bronze Age— DF49>M222 ‘Irish type I’, DF21>Z3000 ‘Clan Colla’, FGC11134>CTS4466 ‘Irish Type II’, Z253>L225 ‘Irish Type III’, Z253>CTS9251 ‘Irish Type IV’ and L513>L193 ‘Little Scottish’"


This is part of personal interest as I am part of one of them (Z255) but I am also curious about where they all come from. I probably am in the camp that the R-L21 came from the western continent to the islands but am wondering whether some branches were not left behind on the continent and then arrived later in the Iron Age.

Some of these subclades were associated with leadership roles in fairly important groups so it could be that a few single men with almost no male relations rose to prominence in different places around the same time (in a highly patrilineal society) or that they are new arrivals whose source is a place where modern people do not really take dna tests (ydna in this case, so going out on a limb probably NW France) and hence there are branches but a testing bias does not allow these to be currently seen.

Only finding more ancient dna will tell but are there other options for these long residual SNP lines that I am missing?

rms2
06-04-2020, 07:38 PM
Look back a few posts: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6999-L21-new-paper&p=153213&viewfull=1#post153213

I wouldn't rely on anything Joe Flood has to say.

There's certainly no good reason to dredge up this thread, which had lain dormant for over four years.

Jon
06-05-2020, 08:23 AM
Only finding more ancient dna will tell but are there other options for these long residual SNP lines that I am missing?

The reliability of Joe Flood aside, I think it's clear that certain lines (in this case Y-DNA lines under L21) certainly came to prominence in the post-Roman phase in the isles. For a more recent, perhaps more scientifically sound analysis, see Lara Cassidy (forthcoming thesis) - I believe she also makes the point that the departure of the Romans left a power vacuum in certain areas, into which local tribes understandably surged. In my own group (L193) this concerns the south-west of Scotland to a great extent. So I'm pretty sure there will have been some chiefly lines in these HG's, but it seems to be an incredibly difficult task to untangle it all in the 21st century and actually give names to them all - that's why I have difficulty with the whole 'this HG = this ancient population grouping' approach.

As you mention, I think more ancient DNA, and increasingly accurate analysis technology, is the best bet in the long-run...

rms2
06-05-2020, 01:12 PM
The reliability of Joe Flood aside, I think it's clear that certain lines (in this case Y-DNA lines under L21) certainly came to prominence in the post-Roman phase in the isles . . .

Since the subject of this old thread is a paper by Joe Flood, it's kind of hard to leave his lack of reliability aside.

Besides that, it seems to me lines under L21 came to prominence in the Isles long before the Romans arrived. We can see that from the Olalde et al results and from our brief exposure to Cassidy's thesis.

CillKenny
06-05-2020, 04:58 PM
I suppose the question I was looking to answer related to was there small but important movement into the isles around the Roman period in Gaul and did the data in Joe Flood's paper point to that possibility. It is certainly true looking at Lara's work we know R L21 men reached here 4.5k years ago. But that would not be every R L21 man alive at the time if they originated in NW France for instance. So if there were some prolific branches that emerged around 2,000 years ago that have long uninterrupted strings of SNPs without apparent branches is that something that really happened or did the normal branching occur in a place where modern men do not test to anything like the same degree.

I am also thinking of the work on the dating of hill forts etc. and particularly the dating of the major ceremonial ones in Ireland (Navan in Ulster, Dun Ailinne in Leinster, Cruachan in Connacht) and how these might have represented a means of bringing people together in a wider identity that they had previously existed and how this might have suited the needs of a new elite. As mentioned by Jim Mallory this could also be a means where small movements of people can cause language shifts if sufficiently important parts of life are now conducted in that language (but I don't want to get into linguistic debates as I know nothing of this field).