View Full Version : L21 paper: important for L513!

04-24-2016, 03:54 PM
Hi Guys,

Just posted this on the general L21 space, but wanted to re-post here, as it goes into substantial detail, statistically and analytically, with L513. His conclusions seem to be sound, and perhaps it's mostly stuff we already knew, but interesting that he singles L513 out quite as much as he does, characterizing it as a very early, widespread branch, of particular significance to Scotland and early Bronze populations. Have a read:

https://www.academia.edu/24686284/The_phylogenealogy_of_R-L21_four_and_a_half_millennia_of_expansion_and_red istribution

George Chandler
04-24-2016, 04:55 PM
Not sure when he checked out the R-S1051 Project last but I wouldn't call over 600 unique variants under S1051 as poorly studied..maybe difficult to study..or expensive to study given the 13 unique branches. Interesting about L513.


04-25-2016, 11:57 AM
I find it fascinating that he does not include L513 amongst the subclades he identifies as 'Atlantic'; I always thought that within the isles, L513 was fairly strongly correlated with coastal areas (see other posts)?

I found his comments on Dark Age expansion very interesting also; a great example of an attempt to tie DNA growth patterns in with historical events and developments. Post-Roman expansion of L21 of course makes sense, especially in a Scottish context, when groups of all kinds rushed into the vacuum they left behind in the south. L193 is given as an example of this, possibly being carried by a leading group of Brythonic-speaking folks who tried to take their chance around 400AD+.

I have to leave it to others to comment on the intricacies of the DNA analysis, but it seems he spent a lot of time on L513, and his workings, to me at least, seem to be highly scientific in form and process. Nothing he says seems to be unduly controversial or unfounded. For all of that I think he at least deserves some attention and comment.

04-25-2016, 08:19 PM
I'm surprised that a paper which is clearly well researched and well represented but is also clearly of the 'Celtic from the West' camp has gone uncommented on this site given the majority view here for a Continental Route for L21 population input to the Isles.Flood's critique of the Continental View is awaited.
I wonder whether the ancestral route he outlines for L21's entry to the Isles via the Med and early Beaker Iberia/Atlantic Trading Routes isn't all that different from Jean Manco's Stelae people etc.
The discussion on the repopulation of Central Scotland post 100BC is interesting not least the proposition that L1065 is Irish.I'm not clear whether he is making a statement on whether L513 or M222 is the dominant SNP in the irish-Scot establishment of Dalriada.

04-25-2016, 08:30 PM
Agreed Richard - hopefully more interest will be garnered after more folks get round to reading it.

Yes, I was also a bit confused re L513/M222, and the 'second wave' expansion of subclades referred to. Certainly L193 is said to be more Scotland-focused, and not found much in Ireland, and he also identifies this; but whether L513 generally was found in number in Dalriadans, I have no idea. Would be good to hear his thoughts on that.

04-27-2016, 06:39 PM
Shout out to all L513 folks: any comments on the fairly clear conclusion in the paper (above) that L513 was early in northern parts of the isles, and in Scotland (and maybe Ireland), probably represents early P-Celtic, Brythonic groups? In Scotland, perhaps even one part of the ever-elusive Picts?! Just thinking out loud...