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View Full Version : Clan Menzies in Scotland : E-M81 ?



E_M81_I3A
04-29-2016, 07:11 PM
At FtDna, I have two "Big Y" E-M81 matches with two people of Scottish origin named Menzies. Both of them, who are not closely related, belong to E-M81 (same subclade A-930) and have their paternal ancestors from Scotland (18th Century).

At 23andMe, an historian of Scottish origin named Menzies as well also belongs to E-M81 (unknown subclade) and says his paternal ancestry is from Clan Menzies.

According to historians, ancestors of Menzies came to northern France with Vikings, settled in a french village called Mesnieres (Normandie), then in medieval times came to England, where the name changed to Manners, with a branch going to Scotland and changing the spelling to Menyers and finally Menzies.

http://www.menzies.org/history/history_full.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Menzies

Of course these 3 people may also descend from a common Scottish ancestor that may not be linked to this Clan, but nevertherless it is quite interesting to find some E-M81 so far in Northern Europe.

It would be great to have some Y-Dna tested from Normandy in France, especially the region of Mesnieres, to see if some E-M81, that belong to same subclade A930, are found which could support this clan Menzies origin.

E_M81_I3A
04-30-2016, 08:50 AM
Interestingly as the two individuals who tested with BigY are from Australia and seem to descend from the same common Scottish ancestor than Robert Menzies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Menzies) (1894-1978), Australia’s longest-serving Prime Minister to date, it means that very likely Robert Menzies was also E-M81.

E_M81_I3A
05-13-2016, 07:46 PM
If your surname is also Menzies, please post your Y-Dna haplogroup

RandomUsernameGuy
07-15-2018, 09:25 PM
Two years later someone answers haha.

So, the question of origins could hopefully be defined more if there was a Menzies DNA project at FTDNA and more male Menzies participation.

The Menzies surname came from Normandy and is an offshoot of the Manners surname and later built its place in the highlands. ItÂ’s interesting to note that the Norman invaders were a mix of cultures, not just Scandinavian in origin. If the surname Menzies originated from a single line of de Maynoers and bunch of families associated with that line, then those families may have come from a mix of several haplogroup backgrounds. In addition, itÂ’s known that others have adopted the Menzies surname over the years for various reasons. But if youÂ’re looking for haplogroups associated with the Normans, the ones to look for are: Viking I1, I2b, R1a1a, R1b1b2 (U106)...and then the Gallic French R1b (DF21, U152, M167), I2, J2, G2a, E1b1b and T.

What would be interesting is comparing a robust sampling of members with the Manners surname and the Menzies surname to see if there are any matching lines. Right now though, thereÂ’s a lack of either on FTDNA, leading back to the original point above - the Menzies need their own DNA project and more Menzies (and Manners) males need to take a 67+ marker y-test.

Last, I ordered an SNP test and will hopefully repost on here if itÂ’s been confirmed. Right now though, my line is falling somewhere under the R1b umbrella.

Tz85
07-15-2018, 10:56 PM
E-M81 existed looooong before the invention of surnames, nor does the haplogroup have anything to do with Scotland.

E_M81_I3A
07-16-2018, 05:09 AM
E-M81 existed looooong before the invention of surnames.

Like all haplogroups but it does not matter, this is just here that the Clan Menzies (https://www.houseofnames.com/mingie-family-crest) was founded by Robert de Manieres, a Norman from Mesnieres, near Rouen, Normandy and he might have been E-M81.

Helgenes50
07-16-2018, 05:39 AM
At FtDna, I have two "Big Y" E-M81 matches with two people of Scottish origin named Menzies. Both of them, who are not closely related, belong to E-M81 (same subclade A-930) and have their paternal ancestors from Scotland (18th Century).

At 23andMe, an historian of Scottish origin named Menzies as well also belongs to E-M81 (unknown subclade) and says his paternal ancestry is from Clan Menzies.

According to historians, ancestors of Menzies came to northern France with Vikings, settled in a french village called Mesnieres (Normandie), then in medieval times came to England, where the name changed to Manners, with a branch going to Scotland and changing the spelling to Menyers and finally Menzies.

http://www.menzies.org/history/history_full.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Menzies

Of course these 3 people may also descend from a common Scottish ancestor that may not be linked to this Clan, but nevertherless it is quite interesting to find some E-M81 so far in Northern Europe.

It would be great to have some Y-Dna tested from Normandy in France, especially the region of Mesnieres, to see if some E-M81, that belong to same subclade A930, are found which could support this clan Menzies origin.

The Professor Jones from Leicester found men in NW Normandy( Cotentin) belonging to E-M81 ( no subclade)

If you want to know more, the samples are probably always in Leicester. Being one of these tested men, our results are not updated and if that is the case, no news!!!

If this haplogroup is present in the Cotentin peninsula why not in Mesnieres

castle3
07-16-2018, 08:05 AM
I would recommend that anyone via a Scottish clan that claims Norman roots reads the following, written by William David Hamilton Sellar, Lord Lyon King of Arms (2008-14):

The following is taken from 'Highland Family Origins - Pedigree Making and Pedigree Faking':
"Families of undoubted Celtic descent began to claim Norman ancestors".
A later passage reads: "In Gaelic society, a pedigree was a political statement, and not infrequently an exercise in political propaganda. Because antiquity was at a premium, forgery and manipulation , some of it very skilful, became commonplace."
Many Scots use the suspect manuscript MS1467 as evidence for ancient roots.

RandomUsernameGuy
07-17-2018, 02:59 AM
I think the prospect of proving Norman pedrigree without a paper trail would be incredibly difficult. You can get clues that give you a higher probability, but without a paper trail to back up DNA, it would be hard to claim a definitive yes.

Unfortunately in the Menzies case, their early records were torched in 1502 when their castle was sacked. They went and sacked their assaulters back, but the damage was done. Interesting that over 500 years later, the real tragedy was the loss of records.

So how could you prove Norman ancestry? Maybe getting someone who’s proven to be in the chief’s line to volunteer a spit sample and a Big-Y? Maybe discover the Menzies have a particular subclade that is unique to them and also can be found in France where people tested who were from the lines of Norman invaders. I’m not entirely sure how to go about that.

What would be equally interesting and easier to prove is what special haplogroups the Menzies brought into the highlands. Tz85 is onto something in that E-M81 is not a traditional “Scottish” haplogroup. But once again, the Menzies were not originally from the highlands and very few have tested. So what if a good number of the line came back in the E haplogroup or U152 “Italo Celts”? Then you have some haplogroups that probably at some point we’re in the highlands that according to current records, weren’t supported to be there.

Tz85
07-17-2018, 03:21 AM
I think the prospect of proving Norman pedrigree without a paper trail would be incredibly difficult. You can get clues that give you a higher probability, but without a paper trail to back up DNA, it would be hard to claim a definitive yes.

Unfortunately I’m the Menzies case, their early records were torched in 1502 when their castle was sacked. They went and sacked their assaulters back, but the damage was done. Interesting that over 500 years later, the real tragedy was the loss of records.

So how could you prove Norman ancestry? Maybe getting someone who’s proven to be in the chief’s line to volunteer a spit sample and a Big-Y? Maybe discover the Menzies have a particular subclade that is unique to them and also can be found in France where people tested who were from the lines of Norman invaders. I’m not entirely sure how to go about that.

What would be equally interesting and easier to prove is what special haplogroups the Menzies brought into the highlands. Tz85 is onto something in that E-M81 is not a traditional “Scottish” haplogroup. But once again, the Menzies were not originally from the highlands and very few have tested. So what if a good number of the line came back in the E haplogroup or U152 “Italo Celts”? Then you have some haplogroups that probably at some point we’re in the highlands that according to current records, weren’t supported to be there.

E-M81 existed thousands of years prior to the invention of surnames. Tying a surname to YDNA is pointless.

RandomUsernameGuy
07-17-2018, 03:46 AM
I hear you and agree to the context of what your trying to argue but I think there are useful bits of info you can derive from attaching a surname to a y-haplogroup. For example, how close two samples of the same surname are related.

E_M81_I3A
07-17-2018, 05:15 AM
E-M81 existed thousands of years prior to the invention of surnames.

Like all haplogroups but this has nothing to do with the subject as already said, this is just here that the Clan Menzies was founded by Robert de Manieres, a Norman from Mesnieres, near Rouen, Normandy and he might have been E-M81, that is why many of his descendants who bear the surname Menzies or one of his variant are E-M81 as well....

RandomUsernameGuy
08-20-2018, 08:14 PM
Rz1706 if you haven’t already, join and add your results. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/minnismenzies-surname/about

Farroukh
02-03-2019, 03:54 AM
What is the exact subclade of E-M81 Menzies? E-A930 or E-MZ117?

Both of them have no close phylogenetic relationship with Morisco subclades of E-M81. Perhaps, these lines migrated in Europe before Moslem conquest of Spain.

RandomUsernameGuy
03-01-2019, 02:11 PM
E-A930

RandomUsernameGuy
03-01-2019, 02:15 PM
The E-A930 block on FamilyTree is lot of European furthest ancestors.

ADW_1981
03-01-2019, 02:34 PM
At FtDna, I have two "Big Y" E-M81 matches with two people of Scottish origin named Menzies. Both of them, who are not closely related, belong to E-M81 (same subclade A-930) and have their paternal ancestors from Scotland (18th Century).

At 23andMe, an historian of Scottish origin named Menzies as well also belongs to E-M81 (unknown subclade) and says his paternal ancestry is from Clan Menzies.

According to historians, ancestors of Menzies came to northern France with Vikings, settled in a french village called Mesnieres (Normandie), then in medieval times came to England, where the name changed to Manners, with a branch going to Scotland and changing the spelling to Menyers and finally Menzies.

http://www.menzies.org/history/history_full.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Menzies

Of course these 3 people may also descend from a common Scottish ancestor that may not be linked to this Clan, but nevertherless it is quite interesting to find some E-M81 so far in Northern Europe.

It would be great to have some Y-Dna tested from Normandy in France, especially the region of Mesnieres, to see if some E-M81, that belong to same subclade A930, are found which could support this clan Menzies origin.

Manners (Mesnieres) are also R1b-A7066 and likely of Norman extract. There were probably E-M81 as a minority in northern France in the Middle Ages, none of whom were ultimately of Viking origin. They may also have been living in the region.

RandomUsernameGuy
03-08-2019, 08:53 PM
Another theory is that the Menzies in this genetic family could be descended from Roman conscripts into England from the Balkans. The problem is, without sufficient evidence, it's all just probabilities. Certain probabilities are higher depending on the haplogroup. For example, if you look at the project, there's another few kits of Menzies that are R-U152. That's also indicative of Normans, or Romans. Who's to say it's not that? Also, the Normandy DNA project found quite a few proven Normans with the U106 haplogroup. There's at least one genetic branch of Menzies who is U106. Who's to say that's not Norman? And if they all were Norman, who's to say they had "Mesnieres" as a surname 900 years ago? We just don't know.

You know in a fantasy world, we may be able to square this away by having someone convince the Duke of Rutland to get tested.

Farroukh
06-24-2019, 11:06 AM
Sack of Baltimore (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Baltimore)

One of the possible E-M81 migration scenarios from Northern Africa to Ireland and Britain

Squad
06-27-2019, 05:10 PM
Normandy and Britanny are somewhat of an E-M81 ''hotspot''. Even more intriguing than that is the concentration of E-M81 in the Channel Islands, where it is found in about 3% of the men !!!

Lupriac
06-28-2019, 09:27 AM
Could be possibly linked to the Numidian cavalry in the Roman auxiliary troops..

NumidianCelt
07-02-2019, 09:17 PM
Hello. I am descendant of William Laing of Scotland who the Laings are also E-M81 which is from the ancient kingdom of Numidia in North Frica and is still at % > 70 in Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, and Mauritania. These people are the Amazigh and pre-date the Islamic invasion by over 1000 years. Our common ancestor is believed to be King Massinissa and his LARGE number of descendants (he live to 100 years and had 44 sons). Numidia was allied with Carthage first then Rome. They became a Roman province and were famous cavalry men and soldiers. These Numidians made their way to Gaul and Britain as soldiers and traders. It is a misconception that Moors/Mauri/Numidians were dark pigmented Africans. They were brown-olive complexions. Many notable Numidians became Roman Senators, Governors, Generals, and even Roman Emperors in Septimius Severus and has Son Caracalla. I mention all of this because the Menzies Y-DNA matches our Laing Y-DNA very closely. They 2 clans were close in proximity to each other including the Colquhoun/Calhoun clan who has a similar DNA. It is clear to me that Roman Numidians made it to Scotland and stayed. Even some Eliotts of Scotland are E-M81 as well. It is well known that a troop of "Aurelian Moors" (Numidians) were stationed at Hadrians Wall near Carlisle by archeological remains and several Roman inscriptions.. it is possible that we all descended from those troops. Look up E-M81 on Eurogenica and elsewhere. It is fascinating.

NT419
07-05-2019, 01:18 AM
Thank you for this post.

Farroukh
07-05-2019, 06:12 AM
The name Menzees was among Malcolm's III (1031-1093) supporters described for the first time by Hector Boece in his "Scotorum historiae a prima gentis origine" (http://www.philological.bham.ac.uk/boece/):


Ili primi fuere comites quorum nostri meminerunt anales. Multarum nova cognomia Scotorum familiis indita, Calder, Locart, Gordon, Setoun, Gallora, Laudir, Wawaim, Meldrun, Shaw, Leirmaont, Libert, Straquhyn, Cargil, Ratra, Doundas, Cocburn, Mar, Menzees, Abbercromme, Lesbei, Myrtoun multaque alia praediorum nomina, quibus viri fortes a rege donati in munerum concessere cognomina.

TMRCA of E-A930's British downstream seems to be ~1000 years.

Farroukh
07-08-2019, 03:39 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1464209/Borders-folk-may-be-descended-from-Africans.html:
"Families who have lived in the English-Scottish Borders for generations could be descended from African soldiers who patrolled Hadrian's Wall nearly 2,000 years ago.
Archaeologists say there is compelling evidence that a 500-strong unit of Moors manned a fort near Carlisle in the third century AD...."

Farroukh
07-08-2019, 03:40 AM
***double messaging***

Barry Foulks
10-17-2021, 09:58 AM
E_M81_I3A E_M81_I3A said "Interestingly as the two individuals who tested with BigY are from Australia and seem to descend from the same common Scottish ancestor than Robert Menzies (1894-1978), Australia’s longest-serving Prime Minister to date, it means that very likely Robert Menzies was also E-M81."

Farroukh had said on the "Famous E-M35 persons" thread "Person: Robert Menzies (1894-1978), member of Clan Menzies
Haplogroup: E-BY10313, source: test of the paternal relative
Known as: Australian Prime Minister, who played a central role in the creation of the Liberal Party of Australia E-M81 > E-CTS4236 > E-PF2548 > E-Y8827 > E-PF2546 > E-MZ117> E-BY10313"

capsian
10-17-2021, 10:59 AM
"Interestingly as the two individuals who tested with BigY are from Australia and seem to descend from the same common Scottish ancestor than Robert Menzies (1894-1978), Australia’s longest-serving Prime Minister to date, it means that very likely Robert Menzies was also E-M81."

Person: Robert Menzies (1894-1978), member of Clan Menzies
Haplogroup: E-BY10313, source: test of the paternal relative
Known as: Australian Prime Minister, who played a central role in the creation of the Liberal Party of Australia E-M81 > E-CTS4236 > E-PF2548 > E-Y8827 > E-PF2546 > E-MZ117> E-BY10313

very nice results

Barry Foulks
10-17-2021, 07:07 PM
His grandfather was a Scottish immigrant who came to Australia during their Gold Rush. The Menzies Clan Chief also lives in Australia, and when he was young paid Robert Menzies a personal visit, where Robert Menzies acknowledged him as his chief by bowing his forehead three times to him, even though the Menzies Clan Chief did not expect him to do this.

Barry Foulks
10-21-2021, 10:42 AM
I have a FTDNA Big Y match to an E-MZ62 Menzies, who appears to have an Australian email address.