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View Full Version : Current view on origins of L2, etc



MattL
04-30-2016, 11:08 AM
Just wanted to inquire what the current view on the origins of U152, L2... and specifically if anyone has solid ideas on Z49 and Z142. It's been a while since I last looked at the latest and it's very hard to identify every new study or conversation in the last couple years or so... so hoping I can benefit off of someone else's work :)

MitchellSince1893
04-30-2016, 04:47 PM
A little futher down the tree than z142 but I posted this a while ago http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4222-U152-gt-L2-gt-Z49-gt-Z142-gt-Z150-Z12222-gt-FGC12378-79-80-81-82-gt-FGC12383-Y3141&p=76699&viewfull=1#post76699

And this
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4953-The-possible-untidy-history-of-how-R-Z142-got-to-Britain&p=96427&viewfull=1#post96427

Bottomline is L2 isn't going to have a simple history. Like others I think several waves of L2 came from Central Europe near the Alps and spread out from there, multiple times.

MattL
04-30-2016, 09:34 PM
A little futher down the tree than z142 but I posted this a while ago http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4222-U152-gt-L2-gt-Z49-gt-Z142-gt-Z150-Z12222-gt-FGC12378-79-80-81-82-gt-FGC12383-Y3141&p=76699&viewfull=1#post76699

And this
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4953-The-possible-untidy-history-of-how-R-Z142-got-to-Britain&p=96427&viewfull=1#post96427

Bottomline is L2 isn't going to have a simple history. Like others I think several waves of L2 came from Central Europe near the Alps and spread out from there, multiple times.

Thanks.

I definitely can see that we still don't have a very clear understanding of Z142 and down... what all sub-branches correlates to what paths etc.

I am very curious on the current view of where U152, L2, Z49, and Z142 each originated, roughly what time, geographic region, and culture.

You mention in one of your posts:


Approximately 4500 years ago somewhere in the upper Rhine River basin a man named Z142 was born

Z142 was a wealthy man of high social standing in the Central Bell Beaker Group

So it seems likely Z142 was roughly 4500 years old, Central Bell Beaker, and probably in the Upper Rhine River area. Part of this is I'm trying to ground myself in some of the geography. Upper Rhine seems to flow between modern day France and Germany (south west region) and roughly end when it hits modern day Switzerland?

Do any of these clades have any association with the Alps, or mostly north of the Alps (with descendant branches leading to the Alps themselves).

MitchellSince1893
05-01-2016, 01:40 AM
One theory is that P312 subclades generally followed the Danube upstream from the Steppes At it source the Danube is fairly close to the Rhine. The theory goes that L21 went down the Rhine and eventually to British Isles. DF27 may have followed the Rhone River in France and to Iberia. While U152, for the most part, seemed to stay near the Danube and Rhine River sources in southern Germany/Austria with groups periodically leaving this core area for Italy, France, Iberia, Northern Germany, low countries, and British Isles.

When the tribal units left the core U152 area I believe they were already a mixed bag of U152 subclades. Thus I don't think you are going to have an almost solely/wholly Z142 group. Z142 is just too widespread in every Western European country appearing to radiate in a half circle from an Alpine area homeland.


I do think when you get down the tree (more recent subclades ~+20 SNPs down from Z142) then you might start seeing branches that are mostly French, British, Italian, Spanish etc.

vettor
05-01-2016, 01:47 AM
Thanks.

I definitely can see that we still don't have a very clear understanding of Z142 and down... what all sub-branches correlates to what paths etc.

I am very curious on the current view of where U152, L2, Z49, and Z142 each originated, roughly what time, geographic region, and culture.

You mention in one of your posts:




So it seems likely Z142 was roughly 4500 years old, Central Bell Beaker, and probably in the Upper Rhine River area. Part of this is I'm trying to ground myself in some of the geography. Upper Rhine seems to flow between modern day France and Germany (south west region) and roughly end when it hits modern day Switzerland?

Do any of these clades have any association with the Alps, or mostly north of the Alps (with descendant branches leading to the Alps themselves).

This will be a good read for what you are after ..............data also included
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704

L2 , IMO is a eastern alpine marker ...........

MattL
05-01-2016, 06:18 AM
Thanks those both definitely help. I can definitely see why L2 seems to be an Eastern Alpine marker. Trying to get a greater picture of R1b leading down to L2... This is the map on Eupedia:

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-migration-map.jpg

Does that still represent the current view... From this it looks like L23 comes from just west of the Black Sea which leads through L51 and then L11 in roughly Eastern Germany. Then P312 in the convergence of Eastern France, South Western Germany, and Switzerland. Then U152 around the Eastern Alps, which then leads to L2 in the same region?

Is that the current consensus (as much as there can be one), or is it off?

A.Morup
05-01-2016, 07:19 AM
You can also find some very useful and constantly updated maps at the FTDNA U152 project:
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-u152/about/results