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Carbotti
05-03-2016, 02:50 PM
haplogroup R1b1 has been found at Villabruna (Belluno Province) in a sample of about 14000 years ago, in what.

Italian Refugium ?

Arch
05-17-2016, 10:33 AM
haplogroup R1b1 has been found at Villabruna (Belluno Province) in a sample of about 14000 years ago, in what.

Italian Refugium ?

Probably not, but close. The fact is we have the oldest R1b found to date and it's in Europe! That is significant!

EastAnglian
05-18-2016, 07:20 AM
Cool development, does this rewrite the current theories surrounding R1b entry into Europe? or are we talking about a lone individual?. I suppose most people will be waiting for more ancient R1b to crop up.

ffoucart
05-18-2016, 10:35 AM
Cool development, does this rewrite the current theories surrounding R1b entry into Europe? or are we talking about a lone individual?. I suppose most people will be waiting for more ancient R1b to crop up.

In the same study, the authors expressed their surprise to find R1b in the sample, as modern subclades came the Steppes.

But as North Italia 14000 years ago was in the same regional culture than the Pontic Steppe, it is not a real surprise.

And it doesn't change anything about how R1b became predominant in Western Europe.

Please remember that WHG were overwhelmingly I2, even in the Villabruna samples.

jeanL
05-22-2016, 07:00 PM
Please remember that WHG were overwhelmingly I2, even in the Villabruna samples.

How many WHG Epigravettian samples do we have? Where are the I2 dominant Epigravettian Italians or even those from the Balkans? Last I checked we only have a sole sample from the Epigravettian culture(ie. Villabruna); and that samples is R1b1a; thus the claim that I2 was dominant even in the Villabruna samples is a baseless claim. It might very well be the case; but we have no ancient dna to prove it now.

ffoucart
05-23-2016, 07:09 AM
How many WHG Epigravettian samples do we have? Where are the I2 dominant Epigravettian Italians or even those from the Balkans? Last I checked we only have a sole sample from the Epigravettian culture(ie. Villabruna); and that samples is R1b1a; thus the claim that I2 was dominant even in the Villabruna samples is a baseless claim. It might very well be the case; but we have no ancient dna to prove it now.

Yes, you are right. But, if you take into account the Villabruna Cluster, Rochedane is I2, Cuiry les Chaudardes is I, and Berry au Bac is also I (and Falkenstein F).

If you took the extended Villabruna Cluster (as defined: "BerryAuBac, Bichon, Bockstein, Chaudardes1, Falkenstein,
Hungarian.KO1 LaBrana1, LesCloseaux13, Loschbour, Ofnet, Ranchot88, Rochedane
and Villabruna"), Bichon is I2, as Loschbour and KO1, and La Brana C1.

So you have 1 R1b, 1 C1 and 1 F. But 6 I, in which 4 are I2.

So 66% of the samples are I, and around 50% are I2. I call that overwhelming.

But, I grant you that the number of samples is low. But then again, if you take into account more recent samples, inherited from WHG, I is clearly the major haplogroup.

Rafe
07-10-2016, 08:32 AM
Have autosomal analyses been conducted on this individual? If so, what did he turn out to be - similar to other WHGs?