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View Full Version : What are the key models for R1b-P311's expansion in Europe?



TigerMW
05-03-2016, 05:55 PM
I think part of the challenge in discussions of R1b-P311's expansion in Europe is naming the basic models under consideration.

Let us discuss under the premise that R1b-P311's expansion in Europe was primarily Bronze Age and/or late Neolithic.

I did this without thinking. :) What do you think of these labels for these basic frameworks?

1. Explosive spread with multiple localized expansions - "Fireworks"
2. Seafaring invasion from around the rock and via the Atlantic - the "Armada"
3. Overland blast from east to west using riverways, valleys and trails - the "Pioneers"
X. Some combination of the above.

We have, can and will argue about which model is correct but do you have opinions on labels that folks could quickly grasp on to?

Perhaps the "Fireworks" should be called "Parachute in" or "Spaghetti explosion". Other names for the "Pioneers" could be the "Old West Trail" or "Wagon train" or just "Overland".

Should there be a #4, a "Reflux" or "Bounce back" alternative to represent Iberian origin and then rebound/spread.

rms2
05-04-2016, 12:09 AM
I favor Gimbutas' idea that Bell Beaker was the amalgam of Yamnaya and Vucedol and thus basically Yamnaya 2.0. That way IE languages, steppe autosomal ancestry, and L11 (or P311) expanded throughout western Europe all the way to the Atlantic.

I still think U106 was part of Corded Ware, however. When we finally get some western Corded Ware, we'll see that.

Gravetto-Danubian
05-04-2016, 01:30 AM
I partly touched on this here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7069-R1b-M269-L23-and-the-diffusion-of-early-metallurgy&p=154915#post154915)

TigerMW
05-05-2016, 05:29 PM
I favor Gimbutas' idea that Bell Beaker was the amalgam of Yamnaya and Vucedol and thus basically Yamnaya 2.0. That way IE languages, steppe autosomal ancestry, and L11 (or P311) expanded throughout western Europe all the way to the Atlantic.

I still think U106 was part of Corded Ware, however. When we finally get some western Corded Ware, we'll see that.

This is quite a challenging issue. I see the Warnow cladistic linquistics analysis potentially puts Albanian on the same branch with Germanic languages.

Albanian is demonstrated to have been influenced by Greek and Latin so it look like it is properly located in the Balkans.

I read some of the linguists discussions about it the potential link with the Germanic languages.

it has some interesting links to Germanic too which can be seen in words like bardh "white" (English bright, German brecht), shpejt "fast" (English speed), nat "night" (German Nacht, Swedish natt) ka "ox" (English cow, German Kuh) and burr "man" (Old English beorn "warrior"), and zjarr / zjarm "fire" (English warm, Swedish varma) etc.

We know Iain McDonald over in the U106 project thinks U106 came up into northern Europe from the south/southeast.

This a real puzzler - U106: Corded Ware or not? If so, then P311, P312 along with U106 might have originated east of the Carpathians. The follow-on is that U152 and DF27 probably kicked up along the middle Danube and perhaps L21 a little further upstream.

Of course, David Anthony thinks the pre-Germanic dialect speakers came along the north side of the Carpathians toward the Nordic regions. Maybe this all just means that was too simplistic. It could be that pre-Germanic really was not an intermediate branch but a series of dialects that eventually amalgamated. duh!

rms2
05-05-2016, 11:36 PM
. . .

We know Iain McDonald over in the U106 project thinks U106 came up into northern Europe from the south/southeast . . .

Until we find some U106 in Bell Beaker, I think that is unlikely. U106, IMHO, came across the North European Plain. Corded Ware RISE1 is a little shaky, but he might have been U106, and we do have a confirmed U106 in the Nordic Battle Axe cemetery of Lilla Beddinge in Sweden circa 2300 BC.

I think the Corded Ware route for U106 and the Yamnaya-into-Bell Beaker route for P312 explains the obvious differences in their distributions and the connection of U106 to the Germans on the one hand and of P312 to the Italo-Celts on the other.

TigerMW
05-06-2016, 01:15 PM
Until we find some U106 in Bell Beaker, I think that is unlikely. U106, IMHO, came across the North European Plain. Corded Ware RISE1 is a little shaky, but he might have been U106, and we do have a confirmed U106 in the Nordic Battle Axe cemetery of Lilla Beddinge in Sweden circa 2300 BC...
I emboldened the Battle Axe find. I think that is key. U106 was far to the north already at 2300 BC. That's no Hallstatt Celt about to merge into Jastorf.

I will ask Dr. McDonald the next time his origins/routes topic comes up for U106. My guess is he's probably adjusted and I just haven't caught up.

By the way, this is off-topic but this also means I was wrong a couple of years ago when I suspected U106 was late to the game in the Nordic area.... unless somehow L48 is shown to be different.

rms2
05-06-2016, 06:40 PM
I emboldened the Battle Axe find. I think that is key. U106 was far to the north already at 2300 BC. That's no Hallstatt Celt about to merge into Jastorf.

I will ask Dr. McDonald the next time his origins/routes topic comes up for U106. My guess is he's probably adjusted and I just haven't caught up.

By the way, this is off-topic but this also means I was wrong a couple of years ago when I suspected U106 was late to the game in the Nordic area.... unless somehow L48 is shown to be different.

Notice too that the U106 in the Nordic Battle Axe cemetery of Lilla Beddinge, way up in Sweden, was contemporary with Bell Beaker, yet way out of Bell Beaker territory. That is one of the reasons, along with the absence of U106 in Bell Beaker finds thus far, that makes me think U106 may not have had much if anything to do with Bell Beaker.

Of course, I could be wrong, and U106 could turn up in Beaker tomorrow.