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JohnBravo
05-05-2016, 02:39 PM
Hi All,
I am interested if any visible features, significant differences to other groups are carried by Z283 group.
Thank you

Michał
05-05-2016, 04:32 PM
Hi All,
I am interested if any visible features, significant differences to other groups are carried by Z283 group.
Thank you
What do you mean by "visible features"? Are you looking for a specific phenotype that is characteristic for males from clade Z283? Or maybe you are just looking for characteristic STR results that would allow you to discriminate between the STR haplotypes associated with clade Z283 and those associated with other clades? Also, do you mean the entire clade Z283 or rather one of the paragroups under Z283, like Z283(xZ282) or Z283* (ie. Z283(xZ282,YP4758))?

JohnBravo
05-06-2016, 12:14 AM
Hi,
Thank you for clarifying my question.
I red some opinions that denies Z283 to be only associated with Slavs.
Y2395 is within Z283 and it represents Nordic people. I think Z280 is Slavic per se. On the other hand there was no Scandinavians before glacier had retreated, so I assume they originate from the same location.

Yes, I mean the entire clade Z283, but this was 6000 years ago, so a lot could change since then. For me it is quite hard to find any visible differences between Germanic L664 and Slavic Z280 group, so I assume phenotypes happen elsewhere.

Michał
05-06-2016, 11:50 AM
Hi,
Thank you for clarifying my question.
I red some opinions that denies Z283 to be only associated with Slavs.
Y2395 is within Z283 and it represents Nordic people. I think Z280 is Slavic per se. On the other hand there was no Scandinavians before glacier had retreated, so I assume they originate from the same location.

Yes, I mean the entire clade Z283, but this was 6000 years ago, so a lot could change since then. For me it is quite hard to find any visible differences between Germanic L664 and Slavic Z280 group, so I assume phenotypes happen elsewhere.
Clade Z283 was almost certainly a part of the Corded Ware horizon, so we can safely assume that the phenotype of the Corded Ware people was the one that was associated with the Z283 males at that very moment, ie. about 4500-5000 years ago. This is, however, no longer valid when comparing modern Z283 people from different regions of Europe (or elsewhere), as Y-DNA has almost no impact on phenotype, so the phenotypic picture is defined mostly by the autosomal profile of a given source population. One could of course suspect that modern populations showing higher frequency of Z283 (like the Slavs who show a lot of Z280 and M458) are more likely to resemble the original Corded Ware population than the North-Western Europeans who show Z283 (mostly Z284 and L664) at much lower frequency. However, this assumption does not need to be always true, as the Y-DNA lineages are much more likely to undergo either unusual expansion or nearly total extinction, while the autosomal profiles are much more likely to reflect the genuine level of genetic/phenotypic contribution of ancestral populations. As far as I remember, it is the modern Lithuanians who show most autosomal similarity to Corded Ware, even though they show less Z283 (and much more of the "Finno-Ugric-derived" haplogroup N1c) than the neighboring Slavic populations.

BTW, I don't think the entire Z280 clade should be considered Slavic, or even Balto-Slavic, as apart from the two major "Balto-Slavic" subclades CTS1211 and Z92, there are some rare Western European subclades under Z280 that seem to have got nearly extinct following the collapse of the Central-Western European CWC sites (see for example such subclades under Z280 like S24902 or YP5000). In other words, Z280 should be considered "pre-Balto-Slavic" at best.

JohnBravo
05-07-2016, 06:42 PM
Ok, Thank you for your exhaustive explanation.
From this I understand that autosomal profile is what we see, a completely independent "layer" while Y-DNA is kind of a fancy male thing like a hidden label, very useful to identify things in anthropological sense, but it's featureless.
What it does then, what is its role? Is it just to maintain a genetic variety?
Also I assume that Z283, Z282 or L1029 clade is no more as it keeps creating new subgroups all the time. Is this an infinite process?
I believe that there must some unchangeable bit otherwise you would not be able to trace the path down the tree.
What is the average population for each group before it starts dividing again. What triggers this? Is it in every generation?
I assume that this way you can effectively identify your male ancestors. Do you encounter any duplicates? How much precision is in this research?
I understand that females have their own X-DNA that serves the same purpose.
Thank you again.
Best regards,

Tomenable
05-08-2016, 09:46 AM
Deleted. It was supposed to be a separate thread, not a post here:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7130-Sex-ratio-at-birth&p=155903&viewfull=1#post155903

Michał
05-08-2016, 04:42 PM
From this I understand that autosomal profile is what we see, a completely independent "layer" while Y-DNA is kind of a fancy male thing like a hidden label, very useful to identify things in anthropological sense, but it's featureless.
What it does then, what is its role? Is it just to maintain a genetic variety?
There are of course some genes on chromosome Y that are essential for male fertility, so we cannot say that Y-DNA is absolutely "featureless". And there are many models trying to explain why sexual reproduction is favored by the evolution in so many species (but I won't go too deep into it).



Also I assume that Z283, Z282 or L1029 clade is no more as it keeps creating new subgroups all the time. Is this an infinite process?
Yes, but only if assuming that the world (or life itself) is infinite. And clade Z283 will always remain Z283 despite becoming divided into more and more descending subclades.



I believe that there must some unchangeable bit otherwise you would not be able to trace the path down the tree.
Well, it all depends on what your "ancient" reference points are, and whether enough of the descending lineages have survived to reconstruct the phylogenetic tree.



What is the average population for each group before it starts dividing again. What triggers this? Is it in every generation?
There is no rule for that. You can imagine many potential scenarios, and even in case there were some most common models for each specific period in human (pre)history, those models were likely changing with every significant modification regarding the civilization level, social structure, style of life, environmental factors, etc.



I assume that this way you can effectively identify your male ancestors. Do you encounter any duplicates? How much precision is in this research?
Occasionally, there are some recurrent mutations, but they are generally very rare, especially when analyzing the mutations in relatively stable (ie. non-repetitive) regions only. Also, when analyzing many mutations at once (like when using the NGS technology or SNP arrays), it is relatively easy to identify a recurrent mutation (or a revertant).



I understand that females have their own X-DNA that serves the same purpose.

Chromosomes X are full of genes important for both sexes, and thus X-DNA substantially contributes to our phenotype. However, chromosomes X undergo recombination (like autosomes), so X-DNA cannot be analyzed (in genealogy) the same way as Y-DNA.

BTW, since males have only one chromosome X per each cell, we are more vulnerable to the effect of potential mutations in X-DNA, and this applies to both the positive and negative effects. This is why both "geniuses" and "idiots" are less frequent among the females (as they always have one more chromosome X with a "backup copy" of each gene).

JohnBravo
05-08-2016, 07:12 PM
Well, it all depends on what your "ancient" reference points are, and whether enough of the descending lineages have survived to reconstruct the phylogenetic tree.
Do you mean that in some cases you can literally "lose track"?
I understand that you require a decent number of samples from people of the same subgroup to be able to reconstruct the phylogenetic tree.
Also I understand that periods of major wars and migrations complicates your research.

Have you come across any bizarre results?
I understand decoding female genealogy is much harder.
At this moment of time can you prescribe any DNA test for them that can prove their lineages?

I know that this is nothing to do with Z283 but I was always curious why orthodox Jews consider only females as the carriers of their Jewish lineage. I am not sure how old is this custom, but I was suspecting that after few millennia of their long history they've noticed some patterns since they are a quite isolated community regardless of the location.

Best regards

Michał
05-08-2016, 08:57 PM
Do you mean that in some cases you can literally "lose track"?
Well, even when reconstructing the "genealogical tree" encompassing all known living organisms (including all kinds of bacteria) that are currently known to us, we won't be able to reconstruct the earlier stages (for which no "brother clades" have survived) using the same approach.

Also, for every part of the tree where we have a very long line with no sign of divergence (ie. with no sign of producing any brother clades surviving till today), we are not only unable to reconstruct the order of SNPs arising between the upstream and downstream nodes but this also makes us a bit lost when trying to guess the ancient location of our ancestors, so only the aDNA results can help us with this.



Also I understand that periods of major wars and migrations complicates your research.
I wouldn't say so. If there were no wars nor migrations, then all our human ancestors would stay in one place in Africa, so it would be very hard to find any motivation for further research. Actually, if they all lived in just one small African village, then the genetic drift would make only one Y-DNA lineage survive till modern times, so genetic genealogy would become extremely boring.



Have you come across any bizarre results?
Not really.



I understand decoding female genealogy is much harder.
At this moment of time can you prescribe any DNA test for them that can prove their lineages?
We all (including both females and males) can investigate our purely maternal lineages, and I would definitely recommend full mtDNA sequencing in such case. Also, every female has a father (two grandfathers, etc.), so she can test her male relatives to learn more about her ancestors. Actually, the same applies to males who don't need to focus on their own purely paternal lineage only, as they can also investigate the purely paternal lineages of their remaining male ancestors.



I know that this is nothing to do with Z283 but I was always curious why orthodox Jews consider only females as the carriers of their Jewish lineage. I am not sure how old is this custom, but I was suspecting that after few millennia of their long history they've noticed some patterns since they are a quite isolated community regardless of the location.
As far as I know, this shift to matrilineality is considered to be a relatively recent innovation in Jewish tradition, and the ancient Jews seem to have paid more attention to patrilineal descent.

lgmayka
05-09-2016, 12:14 AM
Have you come across any bizarre results?
If by bizarre you simply mean not yet explained (i.e., not yet incorporated into a coherent model of prehistory), we have plenty--but we have high hopes that continued investigation of both modern and ancient DNA will progressively grow the model to include more and more such examples.

Gravetto-Danubian
05-09-2016, 12:36 AM
Clade Z283 was almost certainly a part of the Corded Ware horizon, so we can safely assume that the phenotype of the Corded Ware people was the one that was associated with the Z283 males at that very moment, ie. about 4500-5000 years ago.

Michal, are you hypothesizing that the x Z283 all found thus far in CWC are due to their being from the western end of CWC - Germany; and that we should expect Z283+ toward eastern oikumene of CWC ?
IIRC, the earliest Z280 + has come from Urnfield, LBA culture.

Generalissimo
05-09-2016, 01:22 AM
Michal, are you hypothesizing that the x Z283 all found thus far in CWC are due to their being from the western end of CWC - Germany; and that we should expect Z283+ toward eastern oikumene of CWC ?
IIRC, the earliest Z280 + has come from Urnfield, LBA culture.

Nordic MN B RISE61 is almost certainly Z282/283, so Z283 was already in southern Scandinavia ~2600 BC. It's difficult to ascribe its presence in North Central Europe at that time to anything but the Corded Ware expansion.

And there's no guarantee that all of the Corded Ware samples are xZ283. Swedish Battle-Axe is Z645, so almost Z283.

Michał
05-09-2016, 11:31 AM
Michal, are you hypothesizing that the x Z283 all found thus far in CWC are due to their being from the western end of CWC - Germany; and that we should expect Z283+ toward eastern oikumene of CWC ?

No, I have never suggested anything like that. It seems that many subclades under Z283 have contributed to the CWC expansion towards Western and Northern Europe, and this includes for example:
Z283>YP4758
Z283>Z282>Y2395>YP3896
Z283>Z282>Y2395>YP694
Z283>Z282>Y2395>Z284
Z283>Z282>Z280>YP5000
Z283>Z282>Z280>S24902

Volat
05-09-2016, 12:05 PM
Michael!

Is R1a-92z clade Slavic or Baltic in your opinion? I belong to the clade and I'm very biased to be Slavic.

Michał
05-09-2016, 12:54 PM
Michael!

Is R1a-92z clade Slavic or Baltic in your opinion? I belong to the clade and I'm very biased to be Slavic.
The initial (moderate) expansion of R1a-Z92 seems to have predated the disintegration of the Balto-Slavic unity, so I would consider Z92 to be Balto-Slavic rather than specifically Baltic or Slavic. On the other hand, it seems that with the exception of R1a-YP569 neither of the remaining subclades under Z92 was present among the suddenly expanding Proto-Slavs, so I would assume that Z92 was more common among the Proto-Balts (and especially among the Proto-East-Balts) than among the Proto-Slavs. Personally, I also favor a scenario in which R1a-YP569 was relatively late included in the Proto-Slavic community (ie. later than I2a-CTS10228, R1a-CTS11962 and R1a-L260, among others), as previously discussed in another thread (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6611-Baltic-R1a/page2&p=144802#post144802).

What is your subclade under Z92?

Volat
05-09-2016, 10:47 PM
What is your subclade under Z92?

I haven't tested for any SNPs below Z92.

Michał
05-10-2016, 10:30 AM
I haven't tested for any SNPs below Z92.
Any STR results that may indicate a specific subclade downstream of Z92?

Volat
05-10-2016, 11:02 AM
Any STR results that may indicate a specific subclade downstream of Z92?
Family Tree DNA states R1a-Z92. Couple of sites predicted Z92 too. I may shell out $100 to YSEQ to find SNPs below Z92. Also, FTDNA states I have many paternal matches from Belarus and Lithuania.

Michał
05-10-2016, 12:16 PM
Family Tree DNA states R1a-Z92. Couple of sites predicted Z92 too. I may shell out $100 to YSEQ to find SNPs below Z92. Also, FTDNA states I have many paternal matches from Belarus and Lithuania.
Have you joined our R1a project at FTDNA (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1a/about)? We might be able to predict your subclade under Z92 based on your STR results.

07-12-2017, 08:11 AM
I tested with LivingDNA, and they give my result as " Z283", this is still very much on the backbone of the R1a tree.
I asked LivingDNA what other markers they test downstream of Z283, and they replied:-

We test for 18 markers "under" R-Z283. They are as follows:
M458/PF6241
L260/S222
Z280
S204/Z91
CTS8557/Z661
CTS91/S344/Z660
S205/Z92
CTS1211/S3357
P278/P278.1/P278.2
P278/P278.1/P278.2
CTS3402/S3361/V2670
L365/S468
S443/Z289
S221/Z284
L448/S200
S223/Z287
S345/Z288
S342/Z88

So I was thinking since i'm very British at least Autosum, I was quite likely to have been at least positive for "Z284", but this is not in my download file (it only shows positives, by the way)
or could this be a false Negative?

p.s I am also awaiting for my results from the ftdna Y37 test, so this might shine more light on this for me.
I already joined the R1a project at FTDNA
Any thoughts anyone?

Michał
07-12-2017, 08:50 AM
So I was thinking since i'm very British at least Autosum, I was quite likely to have been at least positive for "Z284", but this is not in my download file (it only shows positives, by the way)
or could this be a false Negative?

p.s I am also awaiting for my results from the ftdna Y37 test, so this might shine more light on this for me.
I already joined the R1a project at FTDNA
Any thoughts anyone?
Since you are also negative for two large subclades under Z284 (L448 and Z287) that together encompass about 90% of all Z284 members, I would assume that your Z284- result is not false negative.

There are still many options to consider, including:

1) One of the subclades or clusters directly under Z283 (other than Z282), like clade YP4758 or STR-defined clusters Z283*-A and Z283*-B (with the YP4758 status unknown for the latter two).
2) Clade Y17491 under Z282 (Z283>Z282>Y17491), and more specifically its European subclade YP5872.
3) One of the subclades directly under Y2395 (Z283>Z282>Y2395) that are parallel to Z284, which includes YP694, YP3896 and an STR-defined cluster Y2395*-A, negative for Z284, YP694 and YP3896.
4) A lineage under PF6155 that is parallel to M458 and corresponds to cluster PF6155*-A (so this would be Z283>Z282>PF6155*-A).

Let's hope that your STR results will allow us to assign you to one the above-listed categories.

angscoire
07-12-2017, 09:11 AM
I tested with LivingDNA, and they give my result as " Z283", this is still very much on the backbone of the R1a tree.
I asked LivingDNA what other markers they test downstream of Z283, and they replied:-

We test for 18 markers "under" R-Z283. They are as follows:
M458/PF6241
L260/S222
Z280
S204/Z91
CTS8557/Z661
CTS91/S344/Z660
S205/Z92
CTS1211/S3357
P278/P278.1/P278.2
P278/P278.1/P278.2
CTS3402/S3361/V2670
L365/S468
S443/Z289
S221/Z284
L448/S200
S223/Z287
S345/Z288
S342/Z88

So I was thinking since i'm very British at least Autosum, I was quite likely to have been at least positive for "Z284", but this is not in my download file (it only shows positives, by the way)
or could this be a false Negative?

p.s I am also awaiting for my results from the ftdna Y37 test, so this might shine more light on this for me.
I already joined the R1a project at FTDNA
Any thoughts anyone?

The problem is , I am part of a clade far downstream of both Z284 and L448 , yet neither of those show as positive SNP's in my list either . When are your Y37 results expected?

07-12-2017, 09:14 AM
Since you are also negative for two large subclades under Z284 (L448 and Z287) that together encompass about 90% of all Z284 members, I would assume that your Z284- result is not false negative.

There are still many options to consider, including:

1) One of the subclades or clusters directly under Z283 (other than Z282), like clade YP4758 or STR-defined clusters Z283*-A and Z283*-B (with the YP4758 status unknown for the latter two).
2) Clade Y17491 under Z282 (Z283>Z282>Y17491), and more specifically its European subclade YP5872.
3) One of the subclades directly under Y2395 (Z283>Z282>Y2395) that are parallel to Z284, which includes YP694, YP3896 and an STR-defined cluster Y2395*-A, negative for Z284, YP694 and YP3896.
4) A lineage under PF6155 that is parallel to M458 and corresponds to cluster PF6155*-A (so this would be Z283>Z282>PF6155*-A).

Let's hope that your STR results will allow us to assign you to one the above-listed categories.

Thanks Michal, We should find out very soon then from ftdna, and with your expert help.

Michał
07-12-2017, 09:15 AM
The problem is , I am part of a clade far downstream of both Z284 and L448 , yet neither of those show as positive SNP's in my list either . When are your Y37 results expected?
Does it mean that you are a confimed member of a specific subclade under L448, yet your LivingDNA results show you as Z284- and L448-?

07-12-2017, 09:16 AM
The problem is , I am part of a clade far downstream of both Z284 and L448 , yet neither of those show as positive SNP's in my list either . When are your Y37 results expected?

ftdna site down for maintenance at the moment, but before that it estimated (I think, from 14th August to 28th August)

angscoire
07-12-2017, 09:32 AM
Does it mean that you are a confimed member of a specific subclade under L448, yet your LivingDNA results show you as Z284- and L448-?

Yes , a confirmed member (Z284> L448 > CTS4179 >YP276 , etc) but those SNP's aren't on my list.

07-12-2017, 09:43 AM
Yes , a confirmed member (Z284> L448 > CTS4179 >YP276 , etc) but those SNP's aren't on my list.

Thanks for the Msg angscoire, will you query this with LivingDNA? (I mean as you have proof you are under Z284)
Maybe they need to check their YDNA "calls" for everybody assigned Z283.

dtvmcdonald
07-20-2017, 07:14 PM
You should join the Donald USA project at FTDNA.
Where did you test YP5543? That is an exceedingly interesting SNP to us.

See ...

it won't let me post the link. Go to to the clandonaldusa web site (its an "org"), the
DNA PRoject, and about half way down the page go to the BigY results web page

horizontally scroll the upper chart.

Doug McDonald

Dibran
07-21-2017, 08:57 PM
Since you are also negative for two large subclades under Z284 (L448 and Z287) that together encompass about 90% of all Z284 members, I would assume that your Z284- result is not false negative.

There are still many options to consider, including:

1) One of the subclades or clusters directly under Z283 (other than Z282), like clade YP4758 or STR-defined clusters Z283*-A and Z283*-B (with the YP4758 status unknown for the latter two).
2) Clade Y17491 under Z282 (Z283>Z282>Y17491), and more specifically its European subclade YP5872.
3) One of the subclades directly under Y2395 (Z283>Z282>Y2395) that are parallel to Z284, which includes YP694, YP3896 and an STR-defined cluster Y2395*-A, negative for Z284, YP694 and YP3896.
4) A lineage under PF6155 that is parallel to M458 and corresponds to cluster PF6155*-A (so this would be Z283>Z282>PF6155*-A).

Let's hope that your STR results will allow us to assign you to one the above-listed categories.

I also tested as Z-283 under R1a with LivingDNA, and negative of all above tested 18 subclades. I am of Albanian descent. I'm testing with Yelite 2.1 FullGenomesCorp. Should be exciting to see what they say.

angscoire
07-22-2017, 09:02 PM
You should join the Donald USA project at FTDNA.
Where did you test YP5543? That is an exceedingly interesting SNP to us.

See ...

it won't let me post the link. Go to to the clandonaldusa web site (its an "org"), the
DNA PRoject, and about half way down the page go to the BigY results web page

horizontally scroll the upper chart.

Doug McDonald

YFull found it .

Michał
07-23-2017, 07:35 PM
YFull found it .
I would rather say that it was found (in your FTDNA Big Y report) by Svein Arnolf Bjørndal, a co-admin in the R1a project at FTDNA, who then submitted it to YFull to get a new name from the YP series.

07-25-2017, 09:10 AM
Hi Michal /angscoire,

Okay Last night I got my result from ftdna (quite confused)
Ftdna's result was "R-M198" which I think is about 10,000 yrs old, or even much older?

Even 23andme from 2 years back had me as "R-M417"
LivingDNA seems far far down the stream at "R-Z283"

Granted I am still trying to understand all this with ftdna, but now that I have got this result, how do I proceed? my goal was to go further downstream of "R-Z283", but at the moment I am going backwards.
Any help would be much appreciated.

MacUalraig
07-25-2017, 10:21 AM
Hi Michal /angscoire,

Okay Last night I got my result from ftdna (quite confused)
Ftdna's result was "R-M198" which I think is about 10,000 yrs old, or even much older?

Even 23andme from 2 years back had me as "R-M417"
LivingDNA seems far far down the stream at "R-Z283"

Granted I am still trying to understand all this with ftdna, but now that I have got this result, how do I proceed? my goal was to go further downstream of "R-Z283", but at the moment I am going backwards.
Any help would be much appreciated.

Didn't you just do an STR test, not a SNP test? Do you understand the difference?

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9681-Living-DNA-the-Y&p=262172&viewfull=1#post262172

The result of your STR test is a bunch of STRs. In some circumstances you may get a high level SNP or maybe a predicted one thrown in for good measure, run as a separate test. You won't get a detailed one. The admin might look at the STRs and *predict* a more detailed SNP but that would still leave you to actually test it for confirmation. Hopefully this was all explained to you in advance? :-)

07-25-2017, 10:29 AM
Didn't you just do an STR test, not a SNP test? Do you understand the difference?

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9681-Living-DNA-the-Y&p=262172&viewfull=1#post262172

The result of your STR test is a bunch of STRs. In some circumstances you may get a high level SNP or maybe a predicted one thrown in for good measure, run as a separate test. You won't get a detailed one. The admin might look at the STRs and *predict* a more detailed SNP but that would still leave you to actually test it for confirmation. Hopefully this was all explained to you in advance? :-)

Hi MacUalraig,

I am just a space cadet, learning as much as I can about this new Science, yes I sort of appreciate there is a difference, but thought the Y37 was a good place to begin to get a more downstream Haplogroup than the one I already have confirmed with LDNA "R-Z283", maybe I have to purchase the SNP test for R-Z283? but am unsure how much downstream this would show... :\
I guess I had to start somewhere with ftdna, before I could purchase an snp.

MacUalraig
07-25-2017, 10:34 AM
Hi MacUalraig,

I am just a space cadet, learning as much as I can about this new Science, yes I sort of appreciate there is a difference, but thought the Y37 was a good place to begin to get a more downstream Haplogroup than the one I already have confirmed with LDNA "R-Z283", maybe I have to purchase the SNP test for R-Z283? but am unsure how much downstream this would show... :\
I guess I had to start somewhere with ftdna, before I could purchase an snp.

Well it may be a start but only because of their 'str first' rule :-) Their approach I'm sure confuses a lot of newcomers. Your statement that a SNP was the result of your STR test is arguably both right and wrong! Which is why I edited my message to emphasise it had to come from a different test process.

07-25-2017, 11:06 AM
Well it may be a start but only because of their 'str first' rule :-) Their approach I'm sure confuses a lot of newcomers. Your statement that a SNP was the result of your STR test is arguably both right and wrong! Which is why I edited my message to emphasise it had to come from a different test process.

a quick question, if I may, if I ordered an snp pack from ftdna, would I have to do another swap? or do they use the one they already have?

angscoire
07-25-2017, 11:40 AM
a quick question, if I may, if I ordered an snp pack from ftdna, would I have to do another swap? or do they use the one they already have?

Have you got your 37 markers back , or just 12 or 25? If it's 37 markers then may want to message me I'll give you an idea of what to do now .

MacUalraig
07-25-2017, 12:23 PM
a quick question, if I may, if I ordered an snp pack from ftdna, would I have to do another swap? or do they use the one they already have?

No it will last for quite a few tests.

07-25-2017, 01:37 PM
Have you got your 37 markers back , or just 12 or 25? If it's 37 markers then may want to message me I'll give you an idea of what to do now .

Yes its 37 Markers, I got your email thanks, and have responded. also attached here
Tried to take out names but thumbnail remains. (sorry Admin)
17746

Michał
07-25-2017, 06:49 PM
Yes its 37 Markers

Your 37 STR haplotype does not fit any known cluster downstream of Z283. Many of your close matches from family Eustace were tested for 67 markers, so this could be a hint regarding your shared subclade under Z283 (or at least it could show whether this might be Z284). Unfortunately, those 67 STR haplotypes do not seem to be available in any public project. Could you please ask them to send you their 67 STR results?

07-25-2017, 07:01 PM
Your 37 STR haplotype does not fit any known cluster downstream of Z283. Many of your close matches from family Eustace were tested for 67 markers, so this could be a hint regarding your shared subclade under Z283 (or at least it could show whether this might be Z284). Unfortunately, those 67 STR haplotypes do not seem to be available in any public project. Could you please ask them to send you their 67 STR results?

Hi Michal, Sure, I’ll contact them all, there is only a few of them, so hopefully at least one of them might reply.

07-25-2017, 08:22 PM
Hi Michal,
I got a reply from a Don Eustice, who manages some kits I think and a website, he said his results were here
http://roneustice.com/Family%20History/DNA/Irish/DNAProject.Irish..html
So I am unsure if you can link those matches to the kit numbers on the link or not?
Rgs
Stephen.

angscoire
07-26-2017, 07:14 AM
Hi Michal,
I got a reply from a Don Eustice, who manages some kits I think and a website, he said his results were here
http://roneustice.com/Family%20History/DNA/Irish/DNAProject.Irish..html
So I am unsure if you can link those matches to the kit numbers on the link or not?
Rgs
Stephen.

He needs to provide his complete 67 marker results, which aren't on the site from what I can see. Or he could just join the R1a FTDNA group.

07-26-2017, 08:02 AM
He needs to provide his complete 67 marker results, which aren't on the site from what I can see. Or he could just join the R1a FTDNA group.

Hi angscoire,

I will try to persuade him, on both accounts. If not.

Would the best route to be SNP test for Z284?
or the upgrade to the Y67 Marker?

angscoire
07-26-2017, 09:20 AM
Hi angscoire,

I will try to persuade him, on both accounts. If not.

Would the best route to be SNP test for Z284?
or the upgrade to the Y67 Marker?

If none of the Eustace's will provide you with their 67 markers or join the project then I guess you have little choice but to upgrade to 67 when Michal will have a greater chance at identifying your likely clade. It is not certain that you are under Z284. What is certain is that your STR haplotype is bloody awkward!

07-26-2017, 10:14 AM
If none of the Eustace's will provide you with their 67 markers or join the project then I guess you have little choice but to upgrade to 67 when Michal will have a greater chance at identifying your likely clade. It is not certain that you are under Z284. What is certain is that your STR haplotype is bloody awkward!

:beerchug: LoL.... yep thats pretty me all over...

lgmayka
07-26-2017, 01:18 PM
If none of the Eustace's will provide you with their 67 markers or join the project then I guess you have little choice but to upgrade to 67 when Michal will have a greater chance at identifying your likely clade. It is not certain that you are under Z284.
An alternative is to directly order the R1a-Backbone SNP Pack, for $119. For the M458 and L664 branches of R1a, and for all the minor branches, it is the best we have right now (except for the Big Y). For each of the Z280, Z93, and Z284 branches, the R1a-Backbone SNP Pack tests about 18 SNPs--enough to get you to a sub-branch, though not to a specific twig.

07-26-2017, 01:36 PM
An alternative is to directly order the R1a-Backbone SNP Pack, for $119. For the M458 and L664 branches of R1a, and for all the minor branches, it is the best we have right now (except for the Big Y). For each of the Z280, Z93, and Z284 branches, the R1a-Backbone SNP Pack tests about 18 SNPs--enough to get you to a sub-branch, though not to a specific twig.

Well I am open to suggestions, it's not too much for me cost wise I mean, but Big Y I think is far too expensive.
But I really want those twigs :)

07-28-2017, 07:54 AM
Your 37 STR haplotype does not fit any known cluster downstream of Z283. Many of your close matches from family Eustace were tested for 67 markers, so this could be a hint regarding your shared subclade under Z283 (or at least it could show whether this might be Z284). Unfortunately, those 67 STR haplotypes do not seem to be available in any public project. Could you please ask them to send you their 67 STR results?

So it does not look like the Eustace family will share their Markers, or join the R1a Project (although it's still early days)
So I could either upgrade to Y67, although it is unclear to me how this will benefit me any further? would I get completely different matches?, and possibly suggest terminal snp?
or as lgmayka suggested I could for the R1a Backbone? This might take me at least in a direction far downstream of Z283? how far?
and then what?

MacUalraig
07-28-2017, 09:02 AM
An alternative is to directly order the R1a-Backbone SNP Pack, for $119. For the M458 and L664 branches of R1a, and for all the minor branches, it is the best we have right now (except for the Big Y). For each of the Z280, Z93, and Z284 branches, the R1a-Backbone SNP Pack tests about 18 SNPs--enough to get you to a sub-branch, though not to a specific twig.

Is the Z283/Z284 pack inappropriate for some reason? I'm not familiar with R1a. Assuming there is confidence in his LDNA result.

07-28-2017, 09:09 AM
Is the Z283/Z284 pack inappropriate for some reason? I'm not familiar with R1a. Assuming there is confidence in his LDNA result.

Hi MacUalraig,
From my understanding there is only:-

SNP Pack R1a - Backbone SNP Pack
SNP Pack R1a - Z280 SNP Pack
SNP Pack R1a - Z284 SNP Pack
SNP Pack R1a - Z93 SNP Pack

MacUalraig
07-28-2017, 09:15 AM
Presumably there is more potential on the higher level pack given that you are supposedly Z284-, even though Z283 is on the Z284 pack I think.

07-28-2017, 09:21 AM
R1a - Backbone SNP Pack
Includes the following SNPs on the haplotree:
M420, M459, M198, Z283, Z280, CTS1211, CTS3402, M458, CTS11962, L260, Z284, L448, CTS4179, Z287, CTS8277, Z93, Z94, L657, F1345, L664, PF7521, Z281, Z282, M417, L1029, YP276, YP386, S4458, S5153, Y2905, Y4135, YP414, YP254, YP256, YP263, YP416, YP417, YP445, YP556, S6842, YP355, Y4459, Z685, Z92, YP582, S24902, YP340, YP343, YP1034, YP234, YP951, YP237, CTS8816, Y33, Y2613, Y35, YP1178, YP1368, YP398, YP704, YP441, YP1014, YP4243, S2857, S23592, Y14244, YP4131, CTS1733, YP1129, YP4123, YP358, Y5992, PF6155, Y2604, YP1570, YP4557, YP517, Y2395, YP3927, YP610, YP4517, S23201, YP285, YP1168, YP1137, CTS4385, YP418, Y934, YP942, YP1015, Y874, YP654, YP1364, YP515, Y2921, YP4132, YP1136, Y2914, YP4141, YP1051, FGC9988, YP544, S2880, YP432, YP431, YP442, YP1211, YP360, YP430, PF6162, Z2123, YP520, YP589, YP415, YP443, YP3896, YP1182, YP870, YP451, Y47, YP4519, YP4535, YP4101, YP4467, YP1272, YP694, YP1341, Y57, YP4514, YP1567, YP593, YP1703, YP1337, S3477, YP543, YP4102, YP1214, YP943, S2859, YP621, Z2122, YP413, YP729, CTS8746, S3473, YP547, S2858, Y15121, YP1013, YP728, Z2035, YP541, S2894, YP4444, YP282, YP4515, YP444, YP559, M2747

Includes the following SNPs that are NOT on the haplotree:
Y40, Y17491, PF6188



R1a - Z284 SNP Pack
Includes the following SNPs on the haplotree:
Z283, Z280, CTS1211, CTS3402, M458, CTS11962, L260, Z284, L448, CTS4179, Z287, Z288, CTS8401, CTS8277, CTS3462, CTS4027, CTS2243, Z87, Z88, Z282, L1029, CLD40, CLD41, CLD52, CLD53, CLD54, CLD51, CLD12, CLD33, CLD55, CLD27, CLD18, CLD15, CLD20, CLD24, CLD25, CLD16, CLD34, YP326, YP327, YP328, YP330, YP507, YP508, YP274, YP275, YP277, YP276, YP384, YP385, YP386, YP387, YP388, YP412, CTS10875, CTS3390, S4458, S5153, CLD30, CLD23, Y2905, YP414, YP254, YP256, YP416, YP417, YP445, Y2910, S6355, S3227, S5708, S6351, S6790, S7680, S8158, Y9073, YP1100, YP1205, YP392, YP618, YP983, S6842, YP355, YP706, S4442, L175, YP350, YP270, Z92, P278, L365, YP335, YP314, L1280, CTS6361, S3237, S5301, S6821, S7735, S7759, Y11546, YP1076, YP1086, YP1120, YP1166, YP1169, YP1178, YP1195, YP1198, YP1259, YP1368, YP1388, YP1390, YP1395, YP1413, YP1420, YP1426, YP1708, YP3932, YP3950, YP398, YP4232, YP4234, YP4248, YP4341, YP4345, YP4454, YP4456, YP4469, YP4491, YP531, YP609, YP670, YP704, YP722, YP723, YP984, YP992

Includes the following SNPs that are NOT on the haplotree:
CLD28, CLD39, FGC31429, S6239, S6758, YP955, S3238, CTS5851, S5168, Y11547, YP1171, YP1433, YP1704

angscoire
07-28-2017, 09:27 AM
So it does not look like the Eustace family will share their Markers, or join the R1a Project (although it's still early days)
So I could either upgrade to Y67, although it is unclear to me how this will benefit me any further? would I get completely different matches?, and possibly suggest terminal snp?
or as lgmayka suggested I could for the R1a Backbone? This might take me at least in a direction far downstream of Z283? how far?
and then what?

Shame upon House Eustace !
Y67 will likely enable Michal to place you in a clade based on other project members results. However, you could end up belonging to an undefined , speculative group somewhere around Z283*. At least with the backbone pack you can point to specific clades and say with certainty that you don't belong to Z284 or Z280 or whatever the results show , and take it from there.

MacUalraig
07-28-2017, 09:32 AM
R1a - Backbone SNP Pack
Includes the following SNPs on the haplotree:
M420, M459, M198, Z283, Z280, CTS1211, CTS3402, M458, CTS11962, L260, Z284, L448, CTS4179, Z287, CTS8277, Z93, Z94, L657, F1345, L664, PF7521, Z281, Z282, M417, L1029, YP276, YP386, S4458, S5153, Y2905, Y4135, YP414, YP254, YP256, YP263, YP416, YP417, YP445, YP556, S6842, YP355, Y4459, Z685, Z92, YP582, S24902, YP340, YP343, YP1034, YP234, YP951, YP237, CTS8816, Y33, Y2613, Y35, YP1178, YP1368, YP398, YP704, YP441, YP1014, YP4243, S2857, S23592, Y14244, YP4131, CTS1733, YP1129, YP4123, YP358, Y5992, PF6155, Y2604, YP1570, YP4557, YP517, Y2395, YP3927, YP610, YP4517, S23201, YP285, YP1168, YP1137, CTS4385, YP418, Y934, YP942, YP1015, Y874, YP654, YP1364, YP515, Y2921, YP4132, YP1136, Y2914, YP4141, YP1051, FGC9988, YP544, S2880, YP432, YP431, YP442, YP1211, YP360, YP430, PF6162, Z2123, YP520, YP589, YP415, YP443, YP3896, YP1182, YP870, YP451, Y47, YP4519, YP4535, YP4101, YP4467, YP1272, YP694, YP1341, Y57, YP4514, YP1567, YP593, YP1703, YP1337, S3477, YP543, YP4102, YP1214, YP943, S2859, YP621, Z2122, YP413, YP729, CTS8746, S3473, YP547, S2858, Y15121, YP1013, YP728, Z2035, YP541, S2894, YP4444, YP282, YP4515, YP444, YP559, M2747

Includes the following SNPs that are NOT on the haplotree:
Y40, Y17491, PF6188



R1a - Z284 SNP Pack
Includes the following SNPs on the haplotree:
Z283, Z280, CTS1211, CTS3402, M458, CTS11962, L260, Z284, L448, CTS4179, Z287, Z288, CTS8401, CTS8277, CTS3462, CTS4027, CTS2243, Z87, Z88, Z282, L1029, CLD40, CLD41, CLD52, CLD53, CLD54, CLD51, CLD12, CLD33, CLD55, CLD27, CLD18, CLD15, CLD20, CLD24, CLD25, CLD16, CLD34, YP326, YP327, YP328, YP330, YP507, YP508, YP274, YP275, YP277, YP276, YP384, YP385, YP386, YP387, YP388, YP412, CTS10875, CTS3390, S4458, S5153, CLD30, CLD23, Y2905, YP414, YP254, YP256, YP416, YP417, YP445, Y2910, S6355, S3227, S5708, S6351, S6790, S7680, S8158, Y9073, YP1100, YP1205, YP392, YP618, YP983, S6842, YP355, YP706, S4442, L175, YP350, YP270, Z92, P278, L365, YP335, YP314, L1280, CTS6361, S3237, S5301, S6821, S7735, S7759, Y11546, YP1076, YP1086, YP1120, YP1166, YP1169, YP1178, YP1195, YP1198, YP1259, YP1368, YP1388, YP1390, YP1395, YP1413, YP1420, YP1426, YP1708, YP3932, YP3950, YP398, YP4232, YP4234, YP4248, YP4341, YP4345, YP4454, YP4456, YP4469, YP4491, YP531, YP609, YP670, YP704, YP722, YP723, YP984, YP992

Includes the following SNPs that are NOT on the haplotree:
CLD28, CLD39, FGC31429, S6239, S6758, YP955, S3238, CTS5851, S5168, Y11547, YP1171, YP1433, YP1704

yes so both have both z283 and z284. I keep thinking of lgmayka's remark

"FTDNA added dozens of SNPs to its so-called Z283 SNP Pack, and has given the new version the more correct name Z284 SNP Pack".

I'm not trying to butt in but if it were me I would just get stuck into the packs (not clear which one). Spending another three figure sum on an STR upgrade still won't directly advance your terminal SNP although it might have side benefits.

07-28-2017, 09:34 AM
hmm yeah think the SNP packs the way to go, there is some overlap. im almost tempted just to risk the Z284 pack....:\

angscoire
07-28-2017, 09:42 AM
Also , regarding matches , Y37 Eustace matches may not show up as matches at Y67 , because Ftdna don't report matches more distant than 7/67 so you may end up with zero matches at the 67 level . That would not impact on the ability of Michal to find your likely clade . But the backbone test is likely the better option .

07-28-2017, 09:55 AM
Think im going to take the "Z284 SNP Pack", it still will indicate the other major clades if its not downstream of Z284, unless anyone can convince me to take Ra1 backbone test?

07-28-2017, 10:39 AM
Think im going to take the "Z284 SNP Pack", it still will indicate the other major clades if its not downstream of Z284, unless anyone can convince me to take Ra1 backbone test?

Strange!
Kit B129199 does not meet the prerequisites for R1a - Z284 SNP Pack. The sample provided may not test positive for any of the SNPs in this panel. If it does not test positive, you will not be able to receive a refund. Do you still want to purchase this product?

Anybody know what they give me this message when I wanted to order?

same also for the R1a Backbone test

Kit B129199 does not meet the prerequisites for R1a - Backbone SNP Pack. The sample provided may not test positive for any of the SNPs in this panel. If it does not test positive, you will not be able to receive a refund. Do you still want to purchase this product?

MacUalraig
07-28-2017, 10:45 AM
Strange!
Kit B129199 does not meet the prerequisites for R1a - Z284 SNP Pack. The sample provided may not test positive for any of the SNPs in this panel. If it does not test positive, you will not be able to receive a refund. Do you still want to purchase this product?

Anybody know what they give me this message when I wanted to order?

same also for the R1a Backbone test

Kit B129199 does not meet the prerequisites for R1a - Backbone SNP Pack. The sample provided may not test positive for any of the SNPs in this panel. If it does not test positive, you will not be able to receive a refund. Do you still want to purchase this product?

what is their version of your confirmed terminal snp again? they chuck that msg about quite a bit but they do have you inside R1a.

07-28-2017, 11:08 AM
[QUOTE=MacUalraig;266119]what is their version of your confirmed terminal snp again? they chuck that msg about quite a bit but they do have you inside R1a.[/QUOT

ftdna have got me down as "R-M198", which I think is equivalent to R1a1a.

angscoire
07-28-2017, 11:15 AM
Strange!
Kit B129199 does not meet the prerequisites for R1a - Z284 SNP Pack. The sample provided may not test positive for any of the SNPs in this panel. If it does not test positive, you will not be able to receive a refund. Do you still want to purchase this product?

Anybody know what they give me this message when I wanted to order?

same also for the R1a Backbone test

Kit B129199 does not meet the prerequisites for R1a - Backbone SNP Pack. The sample provided may not test positive for any of the SNPs in this panel. If it does not test positive, you will not be able to receive a refund. Do you still want to purchase this product?

They are probably just covering their backs , and the message is likely standard procedure .

The conservative, failsafe option is the R1a backbone test . The moderately risky one is the Z284 pack - I say that because only LDNA have said you are Z283 and one assumes they are correct .......

Also , if you aren't Z284 and belong to another clade it might seem a bit of a waste even though the pack does cover the other main subclades to a degree.

Pylsteen
07-28-2017, 11:32 AM
I see that the Backbone pack included Z282 and Y2395, which are inbetween Z283 and Z284; that may be interesting; the choice is yours; good luck!

07-28-2017, 11:47 AM
Just Ordered :)

Thank you for ordering the R1a - Backbone SNP Pack test. Your kit number is B129199.


The price of your order is $119.00.

Michał
07-28-2017, 01:05 PM
So it does not look like the Eustace family will share their Markers, or join the R1a Project
It's a real pity that the members of family Eustace hide their 38-67 STR results. Maybe you should ask them to at least reveal their results for a single marker named DYS594, as DYS494=10 would practically rule out Z284, while DYS594=11 would speak quite strongly in favor of that large "Scandinavian" clade (and it's worth noting that you can still change your order before Wednesday afternoon).



So I could either upgrade to Y67, although it is unclear to me how this will benefit me any further? would I get completely different matches?, and possibly suggest terminal snp?
or as lgmayka suggested I could for the R1a Backbone? This might take me at least in a direction far downstream of Z283? how far?
and then what?
There is no guarantee that upgrading to 67 markers will help us assign you to any specific clade, so I won't insist on that. On the other hand, even in case you don't have any close 67 STR matches, it could be possible to use your extended 67 STR haplotype to identify some potential members of your yet unknown (and probably relatively rare) subclade under Z283 among those who did not take Big Y (nor any relevant SNP test) but have already been tested for 67 or 111 STR markers.

07-28-2017, 01:17 PM
[QUOTE=Michał;266157]It's a real pity that the members of family Eustace hide their 38-67 STR results. Maybe you should ask them to at least reveal their results for a single marker named DYS594, as DYS494=10 would practically rule out Z284, while DYS594=11 would speak quite strongly in favor of that large "Scandinavian" clade (and it's worth nothing that you can still change your order before Wednesday afternoon).


Thanks Michal, I think I shall now wait to see what the R1a backbone test shows, shouldn't be so long as they already have my swaps.

lgmayka
07-28-2017, 02:22 PM
Kit B129199 does not meet the prerequisites for R1a - Z284 SNP Pack.
This message can be legitimate, in the sense that men who are not sure of their Z284+ status may get disappointing (all or almost all negative) results.


Kit B129199 does not meet the prerequisites for R1a - Backbone SNP Pack.
This message is incorrect/obsolete. This SNP pack was originally targeted to R-M458, but (before release) was then redesigned to cover all of R1a, at least at the higher levels.

angscoire
07-28-2017, 06:52 PM
Just Ordered :)

Thank you for ordering the R1a - Backbone SNP Pack test. Your kit number is B129199.


The price of your order is $119.00.

The sensible option. You will finally get some clarity on your R1a clade.

08-12-2017, 09:30 AM
So, 2 weeks have now past, and just logged into ftdna, to check on the off chance, had no email or any notification at all from ftdna.
And it just says on my home page I am R-283, so it’s the same as LivingDNA, if I click on this what I presume is my final result I go into the tree view, where it’s color coded for positive, negative etc.
I am a little disappointed the R1a backbone test could not take it more downstream than this.
And comments, or advice on what next if anything?
As always thanks in advance.

18090

Pylsteen
08-12-2017, 10:15 AM
You are Z282- now? That eliminates all the major lineages below.. you must really have a unique lineage :o
Maybe YP4758 is an option, don't know what else.

08-12-2017, 10:21 AM
You are Z282- now? That eliminates all the major lineages below.. you must really have a unique lineage :o
Maybe YP4758 is an option, don't know what else.
Hi, no I’m negative for Z282, so must be in the YP4758 direction I presume or something else undefined under Z283...:\
Confused.com...

Pylsteen
08-12-2017, 10:34 AM
Hi, no I’m negative for Z282, so must be in the YP4758 direction I presume or something else undefined under Z283...:\
Confused.com...

I only see 4 people below YP4758 in the Yfull tree... at least you know now that you don't need the Z284 package. Maybe Yseq has some options.

08-12-2017, 10:44 AM
I only see 4 people below YP4758 in the Yfull tree... at least you know now that you don't need the Z284 package. Maybe Yseq has some options.

Yes indeed that was great advice from Angscoire, I was so tempted just to risk it.
Now I’m thinking it might not have been Norse Viking, but maybe a Germanic solider in Roman army, or something else..

Michał
08-12-2017, 12:55 PM
I am a little disappointed the R1a backbone test could not take it more downstream than this.

Well, based on your LivingDNA results, you shouldn't expect any relatively young downstream subclade. At least you know that three out of four possibilities listed in my earlier post (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7099-Features-of-Z283-clade&p=259304&viewfull=1#post259304) have been negatively verified.


And comments, or advice on what next if anything?

Big Y (or any similar NGS test) seems to be the only Y-DNA test worth ordering in your case, and you will probably need to wait for more Z283(xZ282) people to order such a test before being assigned to a more specific subclade. As for YP4758, there is a small chance that you are positive for it, but there is nothing in your STR results that would suggest this.

08-12-2017, 01:08 PM
Well, based on your LivingDNA results, you shouldn't expect any relatively young downstream subclade. At least you know that three out of four possibilities listed in my earlier post (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7099-Features-of-Z283-clade&p=259304&viewfull=1#post259304) have been negatively verified.

Big Y (or any similar NGS test) seems to be the only Y-DNA test worth ordering in your case, and you will probably need to wait for more Z283(xZ282) people to order such a test before being assigned to a more specific subclade. As for YP4758, there is a small chance that you are positive for it, but there is nothing in your STR results that would suggest this.

Thanks Michal, is there any point in upgrade to Y67 ? Or as you say the only one worth ordering in my case is Big Y? Or similar.

angscoire
08-12-2017, 01:39 PM
sgdavies : I had a growing feeling that your YDNA might be something out of the ordinary based on the rarity of Welsh R1a , the Eustace matches ,and the difficulty of fitting your Y37 result into the R1a group table. But you've done what you needed to do , Y37 followed by the R1a Pack , and Michal et al will offer you some advice on the next step. As for how your Z283* got to Wales , well there is a wide range of possibilities considering the age of Z283 , but I wouldn't rule out a Norse route , bearing in mind your Irish connection and Norse settlement patterns , nor a Norman route either , as tradition points to a Norman entry for the Eustace family (although you have seen this cannot be the case for ALL Eustaces, as they don't all belong to the same paternal lineage) . There are no easy answers in your case . Enlightenment may arrive from elsewhere : you are joining the rest of us R1a Brits who are still waiting for the first R1a to show up in ancient British, or Irish, DNA.

08-12-2017, 01:44 PM
Thanks Angscoire, it’s an interesting journey, and glad I have this site to get answers from.

08-12-2017, 06:50 PM
So correct me if I’m wrong the sale price for the Big Y 395 USD?
Is that the usual sale price or has it been cheaper?
I’m really considering it... but is it still possible that my clade is just very old and won’t change from Z283?
Or is it more probable I will just get lots of clades below Z283 which are yet unknown? Then just wait for future testers to be linked with?

Dibran
08-12-2017, 07:38 PM
sgdavies : I had a growing feeling that your YDNA might be something out of the ordinary based on the rarity of Welsh R1a , the Eustace matches ,and the difficulty of fitting your Y37 result into the R1a group table. But you've done what you needed to do , Y37 followed by the R1a Pack , and Michal et al will offer you some advice on the next step. As for how your Z283* got to Wales , well there is a wide range of possibilities considering the age of Z283 , but I wouldn't rule out a Norse route , bearing in mind your Irish connection and Norse settlement patterns , nor a Norman route either , as tradition points to a Norman entry for the Eustace family (although you have seen this cannot be the case for ALL Eustaces, as they don't all belong to the same paternal lineage) . There are no easy answers in your case . Enlightenment may arrive from elsewhere : you are joining the rest of us R1a Brits who are still waiting for the first R1a to show up in ancient British, or Irish, DNA.

I also tested Z283(I am of Albanian descent) positive on LivingDNA. I am currently testing FGC Yelite. It is interesting in sgdavies case that he is confirmed negative for livingDNAs negative calls. Thats interesting in my case as well.

Here are my following positive and negative clades:

Positive:

AM00847/AMM008/B65
AM01921.2/S475.2/Z2983.2
CTS10083
CTS10085/M1250/PF5948
CTS10168/M1149
CTS10362/M5770
CTS109/M8948
CTS10946/M5804
CTS12028/M1272/PF5977
CTS1217/M5597
CTS196/PF5845
CTS1996/M5651
CTS2229/PF6254
CTS2908/M666/PF6123
CTS3123/M670
CTS3135/M1206/PF5898
CTS3199/M5455/PF1649
CTS3229/M672/PF6036/YSC0001265
CTS3358/M1210/PF5900
CTS3460/M5670
CTS3941/CTS3941/PF2135/PF2135
CTS4076/Z1011
CTS4443/M3696/PF2677
CTS4944/M1218/PF5909
CTS5318/M5690
CTS5808/M1226/PF5915
CTS5815/M696
CTS5884/M1228/PF5917
CTS6135/M3708/PF2693
CTS6203
CTS6252/M5700
CTS626
CTS647
CTS6948/M1231/PF5922
CTS7604/M1235/PF5928
CTS8243/M5736
CTS8626/M1239/PF5934
CTS9005/M741
CTS9014/M5750
CTS9162/L1185/M1241/PF5937
CTS9556/M5758
CTS9679
CTS9722/M5762
CTS9862
F102/M625/PF6116
F1046/M3646/PF2610/YSC0001295
F115/M1189/PF5870
F1167/PF4516/YSC0001296
F1320/M3657/PF2621
F154/M636
F1704/M3675/PF2651
F1714/F1714/M3677/PF2653/PF2653
F1767/M3683/PF2660
F1857/P337/PF5901/Page83
F2075/PF2685
F2142/PF2688
F2211
F2837/M3726/PF2722
F29/L821/M5579/PF5857
F295/M685
F2993/M3737/PF2732/V3940
F313/M1219
F33/M603/PF6013
F332/M1224/PF5914
F3335/M3754/PF2758
F3358/PF4611/YSC0001316
F3424/M1489
F344/M1227/PF5916
F356/M703/PF5919
F359/M1229/PF5920
F3692/M3650
F370/M708/Y479
F459/Y482
F47/M607/Y472
F506/M1243/PF5940
F521/M1247/PF5944
F524/M1248/PF5945
F536/M1251/PF5949
F63/M614/PF6016
F640/M1271/PF5975
F671/M1274/PF5981
F847
F91/PF5862/V231
F93/M621/PF6114
IMS-JST022455
L120/M516/PF6236
L122/M448/PF6237
L1347/M792/PF6077/YSC0000233
L145/M449/PF6175
L146/M420/PF6229
L15/M523/PF3492/S137
L16/M522/PF3493/S138
L248.3/M705.3
L449/PF6223
L457/PF6191
L58
L62/M513/PF6200
L63/M511/PF6203
L726
L741/PF5960/YSC0000297
L747/M702/PF5918/YSC0000287
L760/M642/PF5877/YSC0000286
L768/PF5976/YSC0000274
L779/PF5907/YSC0000251
L781/PF5875/YSC0000255
L82/PF5972
L875/M706/PF6131/YSC0000288
L882/M3749/PF2745
L963
M10372.1/ZS6696.1
M1109
M1160/PF5958
M11760
M1186/PF5864
M1187/PF5865
M1188/PF5869
M1190/PF5871
M1192/PF5872
M1216/PF5908
M1221/P331/PF5911
M1240/PF5936
M1259/PF5956
M1260/PF5957
M1264
M1265/PF5965
M173/P241/Page29
M207/Page37/UTY2
M2461
M251/M9122
M2684/PF3497/YSC0001319
M2696/PF3500
M306/PF6147/S1
M3637/PF2589/V186
M3639/PF2591
M3751/PF2748
M3752/PF2749
M417
M45/PF5962
M459/PF6235
M5106/PF2497
M512/PF6239
M515
M5650
M5682
M5691/PF779
M5695/PF1417/V41
M5708
M5737/PF892
M5781/PF1040
M5788
M5809/PF1237
M734/PF6057/S4/YSC0000201
M74/N12/PF5963
M760/Y506
M764/PF5953
M799
M8961
M8980
M8983
M8999
M9009
M9015
M9017
M9020
M9025
M9028
M9037
M9038
M9042
M9045
M9054
M9056
M9064
M9066
M9110
M9129
M9156
M9169
M9194.3
M9200
M9215
M9223
M9231
M9246
M9252
M9253
M9257
M9261
M9283
M9286
M9288/PF985
M9292
M9317
M9328/PF1053
M9341
M9348
M9349
M9380
M9387
M9405
M9406
P105/P105
P128/PF5504
P131/PF5493
P132/PF5480
P135/PF2741
P139
P140
P149
P160/PF2618
P161
P187/PF2632
P224/PF6050
P225
P226/PF5879
P228/PF5927
P229/PF6019
P230/PF5925
P232
P233
P235/PF5946
P237/PF5873
P238/PF6115
P239/PF5930
P242/PF6113
P243/PF5874
P244/PF5896
P245/PF6117
P280
P281/PF5941
P282/PF5932
P283/PF5966
P284
P285
P295/PF5866/S8
P84.1
PF1016
PF1096
PF2608
PF5938
PF5982
PF6217/S339/Z283
PF6234/Page65.2/SRY10831.2/SRY1532.2
PF7372
Page7
S224/Z645
S484/Z48
V153
V1580/Z3965
Z11010
Z11892
Z11910
Z11916
Z12981
Z15942
Z1759
Z18049.2
Z19760
Z21885
Z3225
Z3236
Z3339.2
Z3604
Z3701
Z3704
Z40386
Z40389
Z40392
Z40393
Z40395
Z4692
Z6007


Negative:

M458/PF6241
L260/S222
Z280
S204/Z91
CTS8557/Z661
CTS91/S344/Z660
S205/Z92
CTS1211/S3357
P278/P278.1/P278.2
P278/P278.1/P278.2
CTS3402/S3361/V2670
L365/S468
S443/Z289
S221/Z284
L448/S200
S223/Z287
S345/Z288
S342/Z88

lgmayka
08-12-2017, 08:17 PM
So correct me if I’m wrong the sale price for the Big Y 395 USD?
Correct (until August 31).


Is that the usual sale price or has it been cheaper?
This is the lowest it has ever been. The Big Y has never been cheaper, even with coupons, as far as I know.


I’m really considering it... but is it still possible that my clade is just very old and won’t change from Z283?
Or is it more probable I will just get lots of clades below Z283 which are yet unknown? Then just wait for future testers to be linked with?
You already know that you belong to a clade--one with the Eustace family (and possibly a few other surnames--see your 25-marker match list). The hard part is to persuade at least one member of that family to order the Big Y. Analysis of your two Big Y results would give you a TMRCA estimate. Unfortunately, none of their family belong to the R1a Project.

Michał
08-12-2017, 10:29 PM
Thanks Michal, is there any point in upgrade to Y67 ? Or as you say the only one worth ordering in my case is Big Y? Or similar.
Perhaps I shouldn't have said that NGS is the only Y-DNA test worth ordering in your case, but this is definitely the most informative type of SNP test that is currently available on the market.

As for upgrading the STR results to 67 or 111 markers, there are many people who consider this useless or redundant. My opinion is different, as I consider such long STR haplotypes useful even for those customers who have already been tested with Big Y, and this is because these extended STR results can be used to identify potential members of your yet unnamed (and probably relatively rare) subclade under Z283 among those who did not take Big Y (nor any relevant SNP test) but have already been tested for 67 or 111 STR markers. On the other hand, such an STR test cannot be treated as a replacement for BigY/NGS but rather as a supplementary test.

08-14-2017, 11:43 AM
Perhaps I shouldn't have said that NGS is the only Y-DNA test worth ordering in your case, but this is definitely the most informative type of SNP test that is currently available on the market.

As for upgrading the STR results to 67 or 111 markers, there are many people who consider this useless or redundant. My opinion is different, as I consider such long STR haplotypes useful even for those customers who have already been tested with Big Y, and this is because these extended STR results can be used to identify potential members of your yet unnamed (and probably relatively rare) subclade under Z283 among those who did not take Big Y (nor any relevant SNP test) but have already been tested for 67 or 111 STR markers. On the other hand, such an STR test cannot be treated as a replacement for BigY/NGS but rather as a supplementary test.


Hi Michal/ et al

Thank you all with your help so for on this journey.

I think im now beginning to understand, and not expect my Haplogroup to change from R-Z283 to anything younger. (so no more disappointments)
but I want to contribute to the R1a Project, and help maybe discover new snp's
so I have just taken advantage of the ftdna sale, and ordered Big Y, maybe in future if Michal recommends an upgrade to Y67, Also maybe then download Bam file and submit to YFull

Dear Stephen Grant-Davies,

Thank you for ordering the Big Y test. Your kit number is B129199.


The price of your order is $395.00.

Dibran
08-14-2017, 06:06 PM
Will I be able to upload my Fullgenomes Yelite results to ftdna to participate in the project?

I know I can upload it to Yfull for 50 dollars. Will there be a way to get my y result into ftdna to participate without buying BigY(since I'm doing Yelite).

08-14-2017, 07:26 PM
Will I be able to upload my Fullgenomes Yelite results to ftdna to participate in the project?

I know I can upload it to Yfull for 50 dollars. Will there be a way to get my y result into ftdna to participate without buying BigY(since I'm doing Yelite).
Dibran, maybe Michal will be able to answer your question.

Michał
08-14-2017, 10:53 PM
Will I be able to upload my Fullgenomes Yelite results to ftdna to participate in the project?
No, you won't be able to do this. However, after submitting your BAM file to YFull, you will have an option to join the R1a group at YFull, so the admins of the R1a project at FTDNA will get access to your YFull data and they will of course use this information to properly classify your FTDNA kit (if you have any) in the R1a project. However, please note that in case you don't have any STR results in FTDNA, you will need to buy at least the basic set of 12 markers (for $59) to be assigned to a proper category in our project's DNA Results chart.

Actually, you will also be able to share your Y Elite results (received from FGC) with any admins of the FTDNA projects, so in such case the YFull R1a group won't be needed that much, but I would nevertheless recommend submitting your Y Elite BAM file to YFull and joining the R1a group at YFull.

Dibran
08-15-2017, 06:17 PM
No, you won't be able to do this. However, after submitting your BAM file to YFull, you will have an option to join the R1a group at YFull, so the admins of the R1a project at FTDNA will get access to your YFull data and they will of course use this information to properly classify your FTDNA kit (if you have any) in the R1a project. However, please note that in case you don't have any STR results in FTDNA, you will need to buy at least the basic set of 12 markers (for $59) to be assigned to a proper category in our project's DNA Results chart.

Actually, you will also be able to share your Y Elite results (received from FGC) with any admins of the FTDNA projects, so in such case the YFull R1a group won't be needed that much, but I would nevertheless recommend submitting your Y Elite BAM file to YFull and joining the R1a group at YFull.

Will buying Y37 be sufficient on ftdna so I can have my data from yfull transferred through the project to ftdna?

This way if I do the y37 it should be enough to participate and interface my results from FGC from yfull to Ftdna?

Thanks.

Michał
08-16-2017, 10:43 AM
Will buying Y37 be sufficient on ftdna so I can have my data from yfull transferred through the project to ftdna?

This way if I do the y37 it should be enough to participate and interface my results from FGC from yfull to Ftdna?

Y37 will be ok, but let me repeat that we won't be able to officially transfer your data from YFull (or from FGC) to FTDNA. However, we will be able to use the information from your YFull/FGC results to properly classify your 37 STR haplotype in our project. In other words, this will only affect your status in our specific FTDNA project, but, unfortunately, your official FTDNA status (including your "official" assignment to a proper subclade) won't be modified accordingly.

Your situation is very similar to mine, as I was tested with Y Elite and assigned to a very specific subclade R-FGC19267 at YFull, but my official staus in FTDNA is still R-L1280 (as I was tested for L1280 at FTDNA), even though my 111 STR haplotype is classified in our R1a project at FTDNA as belonging to category "6. ..>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y3301>L1280>FGC19283>YP1448>FGC19273>FGC19267-B".

Dibran
08-16-2017, 01:24 PM
Y37 will be ok, but let me repeat that we won't be able to officially transfer your data from YFull (or from FGC) to FTDNA. However, we will be able to use the information from your YFull/FGC results to properly classify your 37 STR haplotype in our project. In other words, this will only affect your status in our specific FTDNA project, but, unfortunately, your official FTDNA status (including your "official" assignment to a proper subclade) won't be modified accordingly.

Your situation is very similar to mine, as I was tested with Y Elite and assigned to a very specific subclade R-FGC19267 at YFull, but my official staus in FTDNA is still R-L1280 (as I was tested for L1280 at FTDNA), even though my 111 STR haplotype is classified in our R1a project at FTDNA as belonging to category "6. ..>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y3301>L1280>FGC19283>YP1448>FGC19273>FGC19267-B".

I see. But I should still be able to utilize my results and have ftdna admins if the project offer proper insight on my placement. It just won't update the ftdna value but I should still be able to have my assignment placed with Yelite-yfull etc?

Michał
08-23-2017, 10:36 PM
I see. But I should still be able to utilize my results and have ftdna admins if the project offer proper insight on my placement. It just won't update the ftdna value but I should still be able to have my assignment placed with Yelite-yfull etc?
Yes, this is correct.

Dibran
08-23-2017, 10:50 PM
Yes, this is correct.

Awesome. If it is not too much trouble, I will reach out to you when I receive my Yelite/Yfull result.

Michał
09-06-2017, 12:26 PM
I think im now beginning to understand, and not expect my Haplogroup to change from R-Z283 to anything younger. (so no more disappointments)
but I want to contribute to the R1a Project, and help maybe discover new snp's
so I have just taken advantage of the ftdna sale, and ordered Big Y, maybe in future if Michal recommends an upgrade to Y67, Also maybe then download Bam file and submit to YFull

Stephen, we have a new project member who seems to belong to the same (yet unknown) relatively young subclade under Z283. He is kit 560950 and originates from Wales, just like your patrilineage. His ancestral surname is Thomas and you will find him among your 25 STR matches. Of course, it would be great to convince him to order Big Y (for example during the Winter Holiday Sale), and the same applies to family Eustace, as this would allow us to determine your mutual relationship (and TMRCA ages).

Dibran
09-07-2017, 06:50 PM
Stephen, we have a new project member who seems to belong to the same (yet unknown) relatively young subclade under Z283. He is kit 560950 and originates from Wales, just like your patrilineage. His ancestral surname is Thomas and you will find him among your 25 STR matches. Of course, it would be great to convince him to order Big Y (for example during the Winter Holiday Sale), and the same applies to family Eustace, as this would allow us to determine your mutual relationship (and TMRCA ages).

Are the haplogroup predictors to be taken with a grain of salt? For example, on LivingDNA I was R1a-Z283, negative for all downstream clades. I was also backtracked to H from H11a(23andme).

However, the Wegene predictor based on my ancestryDNA results indicates the following. R1a-L1029 which is negative on LivingDNA, and H7a1b for my mothers line which is completely different from 23andme and LivingDNA.

Are these to be taken with a grain of salt? Additionally, who are these haplogroups linked to? I know L1029 is found from Scandinavia south slavs, Germania etc. Including British samples. I am unsure what the mtdna is linked to.

18606

09-07-2017, 07:06 PM
Stephen, we have a new project member who seems to belong to the same (yet unknown) relatively young subclade under Z283. He is kit 560950 and originates from Wales, just like your patrilineage. His ancestral surname is Thomas and you will find him among your 25 STR matches. Of course, it would be great to convince him to order Big Y (for example during the Winter Holiday Sale), and the same applies to family Eustace, as this would allow us to determine your mutual relationship (and TMRCA ages).

Hi Michal,

Thanks for the message, yes I have been in email contact with them, they are from Australia, I managed to convince them to join the R1a Project finally, I tried with the Eustice but didn’t get anywhere, maybe will try again in few months.
The Australians seem quite interested in more DNA testing they have just done Living DNA, not asked them about Big Y, but we will see.
I also upgraded to Y67 awaiting results, and also waiting for my Big Y results. Then Bam file to YFull, maybe I might get more matches from them, maybe...

As this Thomas family is only matching at Y25 markers, And goes away again at Y37, I suppose it’s not as recent as the Eustice family?
Im hoping to get more matches but we shall see.

09-07-2017, 07:20 PM
Are the haplogroup predictors to be taken with a grain of salt? For example, on LivingDNA I was R1a-Z283, negative for all downstream clades. I was also backtracked to H from H11a(23andme).

However, the Wegene predictor based on my ancestryDNA results indicates the following. R1a-L1029 which is negative on LivingDNA, and H7a1b for my mothers line which is completely different from 23andme and LivingDNA.

Are these to be taken with a grain of salt? Additionally, who are these haplogroups linked to? I know L1029 is found from Scandinavia south slavs, Germania etc. Including British samples. I am unsure what the mtdna is linked to.

18606

I am also trying to figure out which populations my Z283 might be linked to, no answers yet.

Dibran
09-07-2017, 07:24 PM
I am also trying to figure out which populations my Z283 might be linked to, no answers yet.

I am sure soon we will know. My FGC is undergoing sequencing so I imagine not much longer. I am curious why the wegene predictor is so off. I know its not legitimate given it doesn't test major Ysnps(which would redirect the line I assume), given the limited Snps perhaps this is why I am grouped incorrectly.

09-25-2017, 09:03 AM
Stephen, we have a new project member who seems to belong to the same (yet unknown) relatively young subclade under Z283. He is kit 560950 and originates from Wales, just like your patrilineage. His ancestral surname is Thomas and you will find him among your 25 STR matches. Of course, it would be great to convince him to order Big Y (for example during the Winter Holiday Sale), and the same applies to family Eustace, as this would allow us to determine your mutual relationship (and TMRCA ages).

Hi Michal/ and all,
While I was waiting for my Big Y results, I thought I would take advantage of the upgrade to Y67 STR. 10 Matches all the Eustice family originating in Ireland, So this family still persists at Y67, I suppose I was hoping for new matches, or for these to drop away. but they persist.
I guess there is nothing more we can tell until I get the Big Y results, maybe then try again to get the Eustice family to join the R1a Project. I should have at least new armanition with the Big Y.

Dibran
10-13-2017, 04:06 PM
Hi Michal/ and all,
While I was waiting for my Big Y results, I thought I would take advantage of the upgrade to Y67 STR. 10 Matches all the Eustice family originating in Ireland, So this family still persists at Y67, I suppose I was hoping for new matches, or for these to drop away. but they persist.
I guess there is nothing more we can tell until I get the Big Y results, maybe then try again to get the Eustice family to join the R1a Project. I should have at least new armanition with the Big Y.

I am curious whether or not we match, considering we are in a similar case with our assignment. If oral history of my clan is true, and they were Condottieri from northern Italy(who were largely north/west euros prior to the 15th century) there is a possibility we could match. Unless my Z283 took a different migration route before entering Albania. I am doing Y37/Y67, so I imagine we will know if we match or not soon(next month).

10-13-2017, 04:28 PM
I am curious whether or not we match, considering we are in a similar case with our assignment. If oral history of my clan is true, and they were Condottieri from northern Italy(who were largely north/west euros prior to the 15th century) there is a possibility we could match. Unless my Z283 took a different migration route before entering Albania. I am doing Y37/Y67, so I imagine we will know if we match or not soon(next month).

Hi Dibran, yes who knows... it’s a mystery so until we find out where we are underneath Z283, it’s all speculation, but we both know we don’t fall into the main known sub branches. Keep me informed .

Dibran
10-13-2017, 04:50 PM
Hi Dibran, yes who knows... it’s a mystery so until we find out where we are underneath Z283, it’s all speculation, but we both know we don’t fall into the main known sub branches. Keep me informed .

Definitely, will do! Keep me posted on what you learn as well. If we have a match, your yfull(if you get it before I get yelite) may offer some insight.

Slwnsk
11-02-2017, 02:41 PM
Hallo

I have got Z283 in DNA test of Y of relatives.
They say, they are originally from Southern Poland, Crakow region.

11-29-2017, 08:45 AM
Finally got my Big Y Results.... no idea yet what they mean.

Michał
11-29-2017, 12:13 PM
Finally got my Big Y Results.... no idea yet what they mean.
You are negative for YP4758, which means your small Welsh cluster/lineage Z283*-C is a part of novel (yet unnamed) subclade directly under Z283 that is distinct from both Z282 and YP4758. We need Big Y for kit 560950 to determine which of your private SNPs under Z283 are shared with him (and thus define this novel subclade). We also need Big Ys for the remaining clusters/lineages under Z283 (including Z283*-A and Z283*-B ) to see whether they belong to the same novel subclade under Z283.

11-29-2017, 01:07 PM
You are negative for YP4758, which means your small Welsh cluster/lineage Z283*-C is a part of novel (yet unnamed) subclade directly under Z283 that is distinct from both Z282 and YP4758. We need Big Y for kit 560950 to determine which of your private SNPs under Z283 are shared with him (and thus define this novel subclade). We also need Big Ys for the remaining clusters/lineages under Z283 (including Z283*-A and Z283*-B ) to see whether they belong to the same novel subclade under Z283.

Ahh I see, thats interesting, so glad you could explain that to me,
So I have been in touch with the kit 560950 (Thomas) in past, and also the Eustice DNA Family Admin, I will now, at least try to pass on this new information to them, and at least try to persuade the Eustice Family for one of them (maybe they can club together to get one of them the Big Y).
I suppose then that would open a new Branch under R-Z283 ?

Michał
11-29-2017, 01:52 PM
I will now, at least try to pass on this new information to them, and at least try to persuade the Eustice Family for one of them (maybe they can club together to get one of them the Big Y).
I suppose then that would open a new Branch under R-Z283 ?
Yes, that's correct.

11-29-2017, 02:27 PM
Well emailed the Eustice DNA family Admin, took me 30 mins to write an email including nice customized screenshots, and why they should have a kitty and nominate sombody for the Big Y, and what their terminal Y SNP is, got a reply,

"Thanks for the update."

:argue: ahhh, maybe im banging my head against the wall, or they just not interested, or maybe this contact is not the person for the job. or just maybe ....... I will give them a couple of weeks.

Michał
11-29-2017, 02:39 PM
ahhh, maybe im banging my head against the wall, or they just not interested, or maybe this contact is not the person for the job. or just maybe ....... I will give them a couple of weeks.
Is he a contact person for all your matches from family Eustice? If not, then maybe emailing all of them separately will help. Also, offering a small financial contribution to such a Big Y test might be a way to convince them.

11-29-2017, 03:15 PM
Is he a contact person for all your matches from family Eustice? If not, then maybe emailing all of them separately will help. Also, offering a small financial contribution to such a Big Y test might be a way to convince them.

Hi Michal, yes he seems to be the email contact for all the results, so somehow he is the contact person, I suggested to him for all of them to put something in the kitty, and just one of them to take the test. I thought this for their whole family which comes under R-Z283 would be beneficial to them. I know many of them took the Y67 STR, so a little bit from each of them would pretty much work for all of them, so im not "yet" going to offer financial help.

11-30-2017, 08:19 AM
Hi Michal, yes he seems to be the email contact for all the results, so somehow he is the contact person, I suggested to him for all of them to put something in the kitty, and just one of them to take the test. I thought this for their whole family which comes under R-Z283 would be beneficial to them. I know many of them took the Y67 STR, so a little bit from each of them would pretty much work for all of them, so im not "yet" going to offer financial help.


Well just to update this, on the ftdna Projects, the "Eustice" Project, there were a few other emails for Admins (as well as the original which I emailed already), so I forwarded the original email to these new email addresses.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-30-2017, 08:29 AM
Ahh I see, thats interesting, so glad you could explain that to me,
So I have been in touch with the kit 560950 (Thomas) in past, and also the Eustice DNA Family Admin, I will now, at least try to pass on this new information to them, and at least try to persuade the Eustice Family for one of them (maybe they can club together to get one of them the Big Y).
I suppose then that would open a new Branch under R-Z283 ?

This is very interesting, particularly how it may have arrived in West Wales and how long it has been here. It may not mean anything but there appears to be a concentration of the Eustice (spelt with an "i") surname in Cornwall according to Ancestry's census - based maps.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi-3Kuk7uXXAhWGalAKHYVhBbYQFggpMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ancestry.co.uk%2Fname-origin%3Fsurname%3Deustice&usg=AOvVaw02eSdNEvVtk7a3YmnIrpse

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-30-2017, 08:50 AM
Where do the Eustice people trace their UK origins to? (if they can).

11-30-2017, 09:12 AM
This is very interesting, particularly how it may have arrived in West Wales and how long it has been here. It may not mean anything but there appears to be a concentration of the Eustice (spelt with an "i") surname in Cornwall according to Ancestry's census - based maps.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi-3Kuk7uXXAhWGalAKHYVhBbYQFggpMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ancestry.co.uk%2Fname-origin%3Fsurname%3Deustice&usg=AOvVaw02eSdNEvVtk7a3YmnIrpse

Hi John,
The Eustice in Cornwall appear to be a completely different haplogroup, G2? so they are not related to the Irish Branch
http://www.roneustice.com/Family%20History/DNA/Cornish/DNAProject.Cornish.html

11-30-2017, 09:15 AM
Where do the Eustice people trace their UK origins to? (if they can).

So the Cornish Group appear to be a sublcade of G2.
the other English Eustice (minus Cornwall), are a subclade of R1b.
and the Irish Branch as ( a Novel Branch of R1a (R-Z283), but so far I am the only one who has done a Big Y so this Branch remains undefined on the tree.

The Eustice claim decent from the Normans, but clearly they are all different Paternally, so there is a Myth in that somewhere.

So it looks like for whatever reason different Paternal lines picked up the Name Eustice at somepoint, but are decended from very different haplogroups.

11-30-2017, 09:33 AM
Anybody remember that song from The Police (Sting), "So Lonely"
Thats me in my undefined subclade B) under R-Z283
20059

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-30-2017, 12:08 PM
So the Cornish Group appear to be a sublcade of G2.
the other English Eustice (minus Cornwall), are a subclade of R1b.
and the Irish Branch as ( a Novel Branch of R1a (R-Z283), but so far I am the only one who has done a Big Y so this Branch remains undefined on the tree.

The Eustice claim decent from the Normans, but clearly they are all different Paternally, so there is a Myth in that somewhere.

So it looks like for whatever reason different Paternal lines picked up the Name Eustice at somepoint, but are decended from very different haplogroups.

People sometimes make the mistake of defining their origins by surname it CAN apply but sometimes I think it just depends what cultural group they may be in when the surname was "fixed" or even just what was fashionable at the time in terms of forenames like Saints' names or the names of Kings. Apparently the tales of King Arthur resulted in some forenames becoming popular, sometimes the names having a French origin but that doesn't mean the bearer did. :)
From what I see on family trees half the people of British descent must be descended from Normans. :)

01-19-2018, 10:35 AM
Anybody remember that song from The Police (Sting), "So Lonely"
Thats me in my undefined subclade B) under R-Z283
20059

and now on Yfull
20916

angscoire
01-19-2018, 01:06 PM
Well at least you are giving yourself every chance of finding a match by taking the Big Y , YFull , etc. If , as is being suggested , 2018 is the year of all years for ancient DNA , then maybe we'll find a Z283* in there somewhere. And perhaps there'll be a Big Y match too . Hey , you have to be keep being optimistic don't you ?????

01-19-2018, 01:15 PM
Well at least you are giving yourself every chance of finding a match by taking the Big Y , YFull , etc. If , as is being suggested , 2018 is the year of all years for ancient DNA , then maybe we'll find a Z283* in there somewhere. And perhaps there'll be a Big Y match too . Hey , you have to be keep being optimistic don't you ?????

yeap, I guess, just sit back now and wait, I will also upload the BAM file to Yfull when made available from ftdna, this was done with yfull new vcf upload.
Never know once BAM is uploaded, I might see some STR or SNP matches.

12-16-2018, 10:04 PM
You are negative for YP4758, which means your small Welsh cluster/lineage Z283*-C is a part of novel (yet unnamed) subclade directly under Z283 that is distinct from both Z282 and YP4758. We need Big Y for kit 560950 to determine which of your private SNPs under Z283 are shared with him (and thus define this novel subclade). We also need Big Ys for the remaining clusters/lineages under Z283 (including Z283*-A and Z283*-B ) to see whether they belong to the same novel subclade under Z283.

Hi Michal,
I finally got an SNP match with a Big Y tester, “James McDonald”, from Northern Ireland,
Seems our terminal Haplogroup now is:-
R1a- Z283 - BY135739
Can we Estimate a date to most recent ancestor yet?
Thanks.

12-17-2018, 10:49 PM
Well at least you are giving yourself every chance of finding a match by taking the Big Y , YFull , etc. If , as is being suggested , 2018 is the year of all years for ancient DNA , then maybe we'll find a Z283* in there somewhere. And perhaps there'll be a Big Y match too . Hey , you have to be keep being optimistic don't you ?????

I got a Big Y match ��

leonardo
12-17-2018, 11:25 PM
Hi Michal,
I finally got an SNP match with a Big Y tester, “James McDonald”, from Northern Ireland,
Seems our terminal Haplogroup now is:-
R1a- Z283 - BY135739
Can we Estimate a date to most recent ancestor yet?
Thanks.

YFull will do this. Have you submitted your BAM file to YFull?

12-18-2018, 10:12 AM
YFull will do this. Have you submitted your BAM file to YFull?

Hi leonardo, yes I am on Yfull, but the other Big Y tester is not, at ,least yet, I have suggested them do that.

Artmar
12-18-2018, 01:13 PM
Hi leonardo, yes I am on Yfull, but the other Big Y tester is not, at ,least yet, I have suggested them do that.

I have corresponded with Lady that is managing a kit of McDonald and she said she will upload the data :)

12-18-2018, 01:58 PM
I have corresponded with Lady that is managing a kit of McDonald and she said she will upload the data :)

Hi Artmar,
That is good news, thanks for the info, I am also in email contact with her, so maybe this will now flesh out and help to define this new Branch under Z283.

leonardo
12-18-2018, 04:22 PM
YFull will do this. Have you submitted your BAM file to YFull?

Yes and yes, as long as there is another around your subclade who has submitted. I have received a great deal more information regarding SNP matches from YFull, then FTDNA, including matches which FTDNA algorithms have chosen not to include.

01-05-2019, 12:33 PM
Hi Artmar,
That is good news, thanks for the info, I am also in email contact with her, so maybe this will now flesh out and help to define this new Branch under Z283.

So looks like Yfull has now finished processing the McDonald BAM upload, and indeed its now branched with myself under Z283.
So looks like our Most common ancestor was 750 years before present
28146

dtvmcdonald
04-28-2019, 02:25 PM
I'm the McDonald DNA project admin. This is interesting! Could you tell me the kit number or name or email
of the McDonald who is the match? I find no obvious person in our project. You can email me at
[email protected]

Just this week I looked at all the R1a ancient DNA publications I could find for Scandinavia and the Baltic or Germany.
There are about 40 men. Many did not have full data in the papers ... I had to look at the BAM files (after downloading
110 GIGAbytes of mostly autosomal BAM!) The vast majority are about 1300 BC and are all Z280 or Z93 and
thus uninteristing. There are three in the Mittnik paperthat are PF6162 and that's it. PF6162 is one step
older than Z283. The dates are 3600-2500 BC. They are Baltic. There are no ones that are Z284+.

These are Spiginas2, Turlojiske3, and Kivukalns25. Gyvakarai1 is Z283+ Z282+ YP2395+ Z91+ Z289- Z661+ and I suspect
actually Z280+, though Z91=Z280 and Z2395 are inconsistent. Gyvakarai1 is the only useful actually Scandinavian
sample.

Perhaps the interesting people, to me, didn't properly bury their dead?

I do wish to commend Prof. Reich heartily for putting plenty of Y SNPs in his enrichmant list and in fact
making the actual BAM files available (even if unfortunately "all chromosomes in one file" from most papers).

04-28-2019, 03:24 PM
I'm the McDonald DNA project admin. This is interesting! Could you tell me the kit number or name or email
of the McDonald who is the match? I find no obvious person in our project. You can email me at
[email protected]

Just this week I looked at all the R1a ancient DNA publications I could find for Scandinavia and the Baltic or Germany.
There are about 40 men. Many did not have full data in the papers ... I had to look at the BAM files (after downloading
110 GIGAbytes of mostly autosomal BAM!) The vast majority are about 1300 BC and are all Z280 or Z93 and
thus uninteristing. There are three in the Mittnik paperthat are PF6162 and that's it. PF6162 is one step
older than Z283. The dates are 3600-2500 BC. They are Baltic. There are no ones that are Z284+.

These are Spiginas2, Turlojiske3, and Kivukalns25. Gyvakarai1 is Z283+ Z282+ YP2395+ Z91+ Z289- Z661+ and I suspect
actually Z280+, though Z91=Z280 and Z2395 are inconsistent. Gyvakarai1 is the only useful actually Scandinavian
sample.

Perhaps the interesting people, to me, didn't properly bury their dead?

I do wish to commend Prof. Reich heartily for putting plenty of Y SNPs in his enrichmant list and in fact
making the actual BAM files available (even if unfortunately "all chromosomes in one file" from most papers).

Hi, I shall email you later with what I know.

04-29-2019, 08:57 AM
I'm the McDonald DNA project admin. This is interesting! Could you tell me the kit number or name or email
of the McDonald who is the match? I find no obvious person in our project. You can email me at
[email protected]

Just this week I looked at all the R1a ancient DNA publications I could find for Scandinavia and the Baltic or Germany.
There are about 40 men. Many did not have full data in the papers ... I had to look at the BAM files (after downloading
110 GIGAbytes of mostly autosomal BAM!) The vast majority are about 1300 BC and are all Z280 or Z93 and
thus uninteristing. There are three in the Mittnik paperthat are PF6162 and that's it. PF6162 is one step
older than Z283. The dates are 3600-2500 BC. They are Baltic. There are no ones that are Z284+.

These are Spiginas2, Turlojiske3, and Kivukalns25. Gyvakarai1 is Z283+ Z282+ YP2395+ Z91+ Z289- Z661+ and I suspect
actually Z280+, though Z91=Z280 and Z2395 are inconsistent. Gyvakarai1 is the only useful actually Scandinavian
sample.

Perhaps the interesting people, to me, didn't properly bury their dead?

I do wish to commend Prof. Reich heartily for putting plenty of Y SNPs in his enrichmant list and in fact
making the actual BAM files available (even if unfortunately "all chromosomes in one file" from most papers).

Just to let you know, an email had been sent to your specified email address.

angscoire
04-30-2019, 06:14 PM
I'm the McDonald DNA project admin. This is interesting! Could you tell me the kit number or name or email
of the McDonald who is the match? I find no obvious person in our project. You can email me at
[email protected]

Just this week I looked at all the R1a ancient DNA publications I could find for Scandinavia and the Baltic or Germany.
There are about 40 men. Many did not have full data in the papers ... I had to look at the BAM files (after downloading
110 GIGAbytes of mostly autosomal BAM!) The vast majority are about 1300 BC and are all Z280 or Z93 and
thus uninteristing. There are three in the Mittnik paperthat are PF6162 and that's it. PF6162 is one step
older than Z283. The dates are 3600-2500 BC. They are Baltic. There are no ones that are Z284+.

These are Spiginas2, Turlojiske3, and Kivukalns25. Gyvakarai1 is Z283+ Z282+ YP2395+ Z91+ Z289- Z661+ and I suspect
actually Z280+, though Z91=Z280 and Z2395 are inconsistent. Gyvakarai1 is the only useful actually Scandinavian
sample.

Perhaps the interesting people, to me, didn't properly bury their dead?

I do wish to commend Prof. Reich heartily for putting plenty of Y SNPs in his enrichmant list and in fact
making the actual BAM files available (even if unfortunately "all chromosomes in one file" from most papers).

The only Z284 I know of are the Kyndelose, Denmark Z281 sample and the Viking Age Iceland samples. We need Battle Axe , Nordic Bronze Age , Iron Age and the pre-Viking era samples in general , although ironically the only upcoming Scandi papers I’m aware of sample the Mid-Neolithic (too early) and Viking Age (too late).

Jan_Noack
05-05-2019, 09:52 AM
and Viking Age (too late). what did the Viking age show? I think that would be interesting

angscoire
05-06-2019, 10:38 AM
what did the Viking age show? I think that would be interesting

There is a Viking paper on the way , but we already have samples from late 10th-early 11th century Iceland that had Y and autosomal DNA data. Those with Norse , majority Norse and mixed Norse-Gael ancestry had paternal lines associated with Scandinavians :I1 (L22 and Z58) , R1a ( particularly Z284 ), R1b-U106 and L238. Those of full Gael or majority Gael ancestry tended to be R1b-L21 .The few females tested were also Norse , mixed or Gael.

J1 DYS388=13
06-02-2019, 07:08 PM
New paper

EXPLOSION FROM THE STEPPE? The distribution and origins of the Y-haplogroup R1a
Draft only for comment, 2019
Dr. Joe Flood

https://www.academia.edu/39342899/EXPLOSION_FROM_THE_STEPPE_The_distribution_and_ori gins_of_the_Y-haplogroup_R1a?fbclid=IwAR2HxlKvZMewuLULW_Xb5V1n3r 4AcEuXVAwapkKhR2Rm5jaZZYXutS3pQuc

Marmaduke
06-02-2019, 09:59 PM
If I'm not mistaken, there is an error. The PDF text reads: "Another small branch FGC9998 (R1a1a1a2, parallel to L664) has been found only in England, and as it has TMRCA 1200 AD, it probably came with L664 from Norway during the Viking intrusions."

I believe it the text instead *should* read: FGC9988.

Generalissimo
06-02-2019, 10:17 PM
New paper

EXPLOSION FROM THE STEPPE? The distribution and origins of the Y-haplogroup R1a
Draft only for comment, 2019
Dr. Joe Flood

https://www.academia.edu/39342899/EXPLOSION_FROM_THE_STEPPE_The_distribution_and_ori gins_of_the_Y-haplogroup_R1a?fbclid=IwAR2HxlKvZMewuLULW_Xb5V1n3r 4AcEuXVAwapkKhR2Rm5jaZZYXutS3pQuc

The Ashkenazi expansion caused friction with expanding Germanic tribes?

LOL

And has he ever heard of the R from Upper Paleolithic Siberia? Doesn't sound like it.

parasar
06-03-2019, 02:17 AM
The Ashkenazi expansion caused friction with expanding Germanic tribes?

LOL

And has he ever heard of the R from Upper Paleolithic Siberia? Doesn't sound like it.

"This is a major revisionist paper putting up an alternative point of view to the dominant "Steppe hypothesis" for the Eneolithic resettlement of Europe. I expect it to be controversial.

- R1a was a small element within R1 tribespeople that entered Europe at the beginning of the Holocene, mostly through the Balkans.. They passed up into the steppe by 6000 BC.

- around 3000 BC an Event occurred that demolished the nearby Neolithic settlements containing millions of people and left only a few survivors. Two of the lucky men were R1a-Z283 and R1a-Z93, whose descendants expanded almost into unoccupied space.

- these survivors had picked up Bronze technology from their neighbours. They used it to control key resources - malachite, amber and other minerals - which were required by the new Bronze Age civilizations to the south. The trade enabled their population to keep expanding the whole way through the Bronze Age.

- about 2200 BC a major drying event sent the tribes spilling into North India, Iran and beyond, where they formed the late Harappan culture and founded Hinduism and Zoroastrianism.

- later there were other R1a expansions, particularly the Slav/Ashkenazi expansion in Greater Poland in the post-Roman period

The main points of departure from the canon are:
- no horses. the cow did it.
- trade and settlement of vacant lands, not invasion
- provides mild support for both the ''Anatolian hypothesis' and ''steppe hypothesis' - at different times."

J1 DYS388=13
06-03-2019, 09:56 AM
If I'm not mistaken, there is an error. The PDF text reads: "Another small branch FGC9998 (R1a1a1a2, parallel to L664) has been found only in England, and as it has TMRCA 1200 AD, it probably came with L664 from Norway during the Viking intrusions."

I believe it the text instead *should* read: FGC9988.

You are correct. Someone has pointed that out to the author on the Facebook YFull group.

palamede
06-08-2019, 11:00 AM
You are correct. Someone has pointed that out to the author on the Facebook YFull group.

In Yfull, FGC9998 and FGC9988 are on the same node named R1a-FGC9988.

palamede
06-08-2019, 11:02 AM
"This is a major revisionist paper putting up an alternative point of view to the dominant "Steppe hypothesis" for the Eneolithic resettlement of Europe. I expect it to be controversial.

- R1a was a small element within R1 tribespeople that entered Europe at the beginning of the Holocene, mostly through the Balkans.. They passed up into the steppe by 6000 BC.

- around 3000 BC an Event occurred that demolished the nearby Neolithic settlements containing millions of people and left only a few survivors. Two of the lucky men were R1a-Z283 and R1a-Z93, whose descendants expanded almost into unoccupied space.

- these survivors had picked up Bronze technology from their neighbours. They used it to control key resources - malachite, amber and other minerals - which were required by the new Bronze Age civilizations to the south. The trade enabled their population to keep expanding the whole way through the Bronze Age.

- about 2200 BC a major drying event sent the tribes spilling into North India, Iran and beyond, where they formed the late Harappan culture and founded Hinduism and Zoroastrianism.

- later there were other R1a expansions, particularly the Slav/Ashkenazi expansion in Greater Poland in the post-Roman period

The main points of departure from the canon are:
- no horses. the cow did it.
- trade and settlement of vacant lands, not invasion
- provides mild support for both the ''Anatolian hypothesis' and ''steppe hypothesis' - at different times."

Parasar, I give thanks for your summary , no thank for the amateur author of the paper.

JoeyP37
06-08-2019, 12:35 PM
I read the entire paper, and I will at least give him this-he does not have the R1a tribes speaking Uralic. Or being Mongoloid and speaking some kind of Yukaghir or Paleosiberian language. Carlos, what do you have against my haplogroup? Did Razib Khan or my dad throw you into a garbage can when you were a teenager?

Dibran
06-13-2019, 04:07 PM
I read the entire paper, and I will at least give him this-he does not have the R1a tribes speaking Uralic. Or being Mongoloid and speaking some kind of Yukaghir or Paleosiberian language. Carlos, what do you have against my haplogroup? Did Razib Khan or my dad throw you into a garbage can when you were a teenager?

It is simply too far back to know what the progenitor of all R1a-M417 spoke. However, the Proto-Indo-European/Indo-European/Steppe hypothesis makes the most sense. Yet, nothing is set in stone. New findings could turn things on their head.