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Cernunnos
05-06-2016, 09:29 PM
Just out of curiosity, based on the Kinman Hypothesis of Z142 coming out of southwestern Germany near the black forest, and that area having a history of both Celtic and Germanic peoples, what is Z142 considered?
Sorry if this question has been answered anywhere else-thanks

Scott Bendell

Agamemnon
05-07-2016, 02:06 AM
While it could be argued that Z142 yielded many lineages which were later to be found in the earliest Celtic and Germanic-speaking groups, Z142's TMRCA is rougly 4,100 years old, which is by far older than anything remotely Celtic or Germanic. Italo-Celtic could work though.

MitchellSince1893
05-07-2016, 04:53 AM
So far not one of the R-Z49>Z142 samples in the U152 project is from Germany. That's 0 out of 85 samples in the Z142 section.

By comparison 7 of 41 (17%) of the other R-Z49 branches have samples from Germany.

As a whole about 13% of L2 samples in the U152 project are from Germany.

Overall Germany is 14.4% of U152, 12.8% of L2, 25.6% of Z36, 13.7% of Z56, and 7.1% of PF6658 samples in FTNDA's U152 project.

If Z142 originated in the black forest, it headed north, south, and west. By the time the Germanics arrived in this area 2000 later, Z142 was mostly long gone to the low countries, British Isles, France, Iberia, Switzerland, and Italy.

Cernunnos
05-07-2016, 05:59 PM
Thanks for your responses. So do you think the Z142s travelled with the halstatt or la tene Celts? Or did they move out of Germany with the urnfield and bell beaker cultures?

MitchellSince1893
05-07-2016, 08:00 PM
Thanks for your responses. So do you think the Z142s travelled with the halstatt or la tene Celts? Or did they move out of Germany with the urnfield and bell beaker cultures?

My thoughts are it's complicated
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4953-The-possible-untidy-history-of-how-R-Z142-got-to-Britain&p=96427&viewfull=1#post96427

MitchellSince1893
05-07-2016, 09:38 PM
If I had to pick a starting point for Z142; the Alsace, Lorraine, and Franche-Comté region of France (areas bordering Germany and Switzerland) would be a good spot.

From here one can easily head down the Rhine, Rhone, Moselle and Meuse rivers, (helps explain Z142 being in the Low Countries, Northern France, Southern Europe).

The reason I believe Z142 tended to stay in place soon after its formation/TMCRA, with waves/groups periodically leaving a core region; is that 14 SNPs later, it has the same pattern in modern day distribution.

That is:

Z142 branches found mostly in British Isles, Low Countries, France, Italy, Iberia, and Switzerland (with a single sample from Norway and Hungary).

3 SNP later, Z150/Z12222/Z26720 found in British Isles, Low Countries, France, Italy, Iberia

6 SNPs after this FGC12378/79/80/81/82/83 found in British Isles, Low Countries, France, Italy, Iberia

5 SNPs after this FGC12401/02/03/04/05 found in British Isles and Italy (only 4 current samples).

According Yfull's dates, this would mean that Z142 and subclades would have been in the same area from at least 2500 BC to 1200 BC; with groups periodically leaving this region and ending up in the above mentioned areas.

Agamemnon
05-07-2016, 09:42 PM
Thanks for your responses. So do you think the Z142s travelled with the halstatt or la tene Celts? Or did they move out of Germany with the urnfield and bell beaker cultures?

I think Eastern and Central BB alongside Urnfield have more to do with the spread of Z142 (and other U152 branches) than Hallstatt or La Tène.


If I had to pick a starting point for Z142; the Alsace, Lorraine, and Franche-Comté region of France (areas bordering Germany and Switzerland) would be a good spot.

Fully agree with you on this one.

Cernunnos
05-07-2016, 11:43 PM
Interesting points! Yes definitely seems to be complicated which is why I'm happy to get some expert feedback. So if Z142 spread out with bb and urnfield all around, did they then become immersed in with the Alpine Celts? I'm trying to understand what cultures from Beaker/urnfield onward my line could have been in if that's even a possibility. But seems like age estimation/ formation seems to be 3000 ybd..when I first started it seemed like if you were U152 S28 you were itallo-celtic...does that still make sense or have things evolved? I'm Bendell btw..
Z142>R-FGC22963 >R-Y20026

MitchellSince1893
05-08-2016, 12:41 AM
Interesting points! Yes definitely seems to be complicated which is why I'm happy to get some expert feedback. So if Z142 spread out with bb and urnfield all around, did they then become immersed in with the Alpine Celts? I'm trying to understand what cultures from Beaker/urnfield onward my line could have been in if that's even a possibility. But seems like age estimation/ formation seems to be 3000 ybd..when I first started it seemed like if you were U152 S28 you were itallo-celtic...does that still make sense or have things evolved? I'm Bendell btw..
Z142>R-FGC22963 >R-Y20026

I think you are going to need about half a dozen more SNPs on your branch to get to the Celtic era. But your branch may eventually have a Celtic connection.

Keep in mind we are at the early stages of this scientific discovery. If the discovery of U152 equalled the Wright brothers first flight, we are currently in the biplane era. In other words we've really just begun this journey.

MitchellSince1893
05-08-2016, 03:25 AM
While not as famous as Halstaat and La Tène; I could see the Vix site, in France having some ancient Z142.


The area around the village of Vix in northern Burgundy, France is the site of an important prehistoric complex from the Celtic Late Hallstatt and Early La Tène periods, comprising an important fortified settlement and several burial mounds. The most famous of the latter, the Vix Grave, also known as the grave of the Lady of Vix, dates to circa 500 BC...The complex is centred on Mont Lassois, a steep flat-topped hill that dominates the area. It was the site of a fortified Celtic settlement, or oppidum. To the southeast of the hill, there was a 42-hectare necropolis with graves ranging from the Late Bronze Age via the Hallstatt Culture to Late La Tène.
Too bad there is such a negative feeling towards dna testing in France.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vix_Grave


Clearly the ground beneath the Châtillonnaise has more to reveal. In the summer of 2007, a team of Franco-German archaeologists led by Bruno Chaume from the University of Bourgogne in Dijon uncovered a fortress village on the plateau beneath Mont Lassois. Here, a palace was revealed, the size of a church, 35 m by 21.5 m and some 15m high. Further investigation, thanks to the advances in seismology equipment, have discovered a town covering an area of 60 hectares with a main street leading to the palace, dwellings for hundreds of people, grain warehouses and water cylinders. This town, dating back 2,500 years could well be the first signs of urbanization in western Europe, and the first town in France.
http://www.burgundytoday.com/historic-places/museums/musee-du-chatillonnais.htm

Here's an image of the site in bold with the Seine River in the foreground. Looks like good place for a "fortified Celtic settlement".

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Cernunnos
05-08-2016, 03:47 AM
Hmm, yea seems like it's a bit too early to tell yet. I'm leaning towards my branch heading west to Alsace-lorraine where it became one of the gaulish tribes and then possibly taking over by the Alemanni or heading up to England as a guess. Hopefully in a few years new evidence and SNPs will come out. Quite fascinating to me. Thanks for taking the time to reply!

MitchellSince1893
05-08-2016, 04:24 AM
Hmm, yea seems like it's a bit too early to tell yet. I'm leaning towards my branch heading west to Alsace-lorraine where it became one of the gaulish tribes and then possibly taking over by the Alemanni or heading up to England as a guess. Hopefully in a few years new evidence and SNPs will come out. Quite fascinating to me. Thanks for taking the time to reply!

FWIW, a few months back a calculated a present day geographic center point for Z142 http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2924-Branches-of-Z142&p=115262&viewfull=1#post115262

Here's a map showing that point, the 500 BC Vix site, and my guess at a Z142 starting point.
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MitchellSince1893
05-08-2016, 06:01 AM
FWIW, a few months back a calculated a present day geographic center point for Z142 http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2924-Branches-of-Z142&p=115262&viewfull=1#post115262

Here's a map showing that point, the 500 BC Vix site, and my guess at a Z142 starting point.
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As I continue running down this rabbit hole...

The Lingones tribe along with the Sequani tribe would have been in the Vix Celtic site area and east towards Germany and Switzerland.


The Lingones were a Celtic tribe that originally lived in Gaul in the area of the headwaters of the Seine and Marne rivers. Some of the Lingones migrated across the Alps and settled near the mouth of the Po River in Cisalpine Gaul of northern Italy around 400 BCE. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingones


The Lingones make their first appearance in history in c.400 BCE, when they joined the Gallic conquest of the plains of the Po. Its exact cause is not really understood, but it is clear that between 440 and 380, there were social changes in the area between the rivers Marne and Upper Elbe, and the old aristocracy appears to have been replaced by a new warrior elite. There must have been social tensions, and mass migration appears to have been one of the solutions. The area along the Marne saw a rapid decline of population, and many of its former inhabitants seem to have crossed the Alps.http://www.livius.org/articles/people/lingones/

Later there were Roman auxiliary cohorts of Lingones in Britain.

Vespasian...decided that the Lingonian auxiliary units had to be sent to Britain. At least four units of 500 men are mentioned on inscriptions:

Cohors primae Lingonum equitata: an equestrian unit based in Bremenium (High Rochester in Northumberland) and Longovicium (Lanchester in Durham). The emperor Gordian III (238-244) awarded this unit the title Gordiana.
Cohors secundae Lingonum: stationed at Gabrosentum (Moresby, Cumbria), where they must have acted as some kind of coast guard during the reign of Hadrian. Later, they were transferred to Ilkley in Yorkshire.
Cohors tertiae Lingonum: no known fort.
Cohors quartae Lingonum: This unit was transferred to Britain in 71 and took part in the northern campaign conducted by Quintus Petillius Cerialis. By the end of the fourth century, it occupied Segedunum, the easternmost fort of Hadrian's wall, also known as Wallsend.

The Ligones' capital was Andematunnum (present day Langres, France) which is ironically right on the line almost half way between my guess at a Z142 starting point and the Celtic Site at Vix, France.

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Cernunnos
05-09-2016, 03:46 AM
So this would be an interesting if the Z142s went with the Lingones into Cisalpine gaul and went with the Roman's up to England. A totally different approach then the Kinman theory going up with the Normans. So in your opinion do you think U152 s28 is still itallo-celtic, or more Gaulish or even Roman?

MitchellSince1893
05-09-2016, 06:16 AM
So this would be an interesting if the Z142s went with the Lingones into Cisalpine gaul and went with the Roman's up to England. A totally different approach then the Kinman theory going up with the Normans. So in your opinion do you think U152 s28 is still itallo-celtic, or more Gaulish or even Roman?

See my post 5. IMO there isn't going to be a clean/simplistic answer. Gauls and Romans are the descendants of the italo-celts.

It's all the above. The Cisapline Gauls became Romans over time. But even if you exclude them, some Bell Beaker and Urnfield U152 types could have come into Italy well before there was even the concept of a "Roman" (2000 to 1000 BC).

On my own line, I have no clue as to whether my U152 paternal line got to Britain with Bell Beaker in 2000 BC, or came to England during the Industrial Revolution.

IMO the bulk of U152 arrived in Britain during the late Bronze Age and Iron Age. Based on U152's current concentrations, it appears they arrived after earlier groups got well established e.g. L21. For example there is very little U152 in Wales. However, I would say that a disproportionate amount of U152 in sparsely populated Northern Britain near Hadrian's Wall is of Roman era origin i.e. auxiliaries from the Belgica and Gaul. e.g. Batavians, Tongres, Lingones, etc.

But as I said earlier, it's not going to be easy or simple to nail down. It's estimated that 20-30% of the English population have Huguenot ancestry (17th and 18th century arrivals), and a significant percentage of the Huguenot men were undoubtedly U152 (U152 is a higher percentage of France's population compared to England's). That group by itself could easily make up a large contribution of U152 in England.
https://www.geni.com/projects/Huguenots-of-Britain/12982

Cernunnos
05-10-2016, 02:25 AM
Sounds complicated! I see what your saying though and I imagine there has been a lot of mixing of tribes over time. I guess it will be easier to tell in time but even then it's not a sure thing as there are always stray pockets. Interesting thing about england I was reading that there isn't much migration within england and people tend to live in the general area of where their ancestors settled down in at least during and after the Anglo saxon Era. So perhaps we can deduce some migration paths from that..so if buckinghamshire is where my line ended up in england, that makes it either Saxon groups or the Catuvellauni I believe. But that's just based on early evidence..if I'm doing that correctly...

MattL
05-26-2016, 01:50 AM
IMO the bulk of U152 arrived in Britain during the late Bronze Age and Iron Age. Based on U152's current concentrations, it appears they arrived after earlier groups got well established e.g. L21. For example there is very little U152 in Wales. However, I would say that a disproportionate amount of U152 in sparsely populated Northern Britain near Hadrian's Wall is of Roman era origin i.e. auxiliaries from the Belgica and Gaul. e.g. Batavians, Tongres, Lingones, etc.


Just to play with this narrative, obviously it probably arrived in England in waves, but thinking down the path of one path, maybe the most common path.

Let's say L21 arrived in the British Isles early on, hence being in Ireland and Scotland regions and generally high amounts over all but South East England. Then as you say later Z142 arrived. Does this narrative then suggest Z142 was smack in the middle of the Celtic Gaul to eventually hop over the waters and make a fairly minor imprint on England overall (and not make it to Ireland really)?

Considering the limited regions of U152 in England does that suggest it was a relatively late comer to there and then could likely place during the Gaul region during the Celtic times?

I'm finding this thread very fascinating too:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7150-Z40481-Splits-R-P312/page4

MattL
05-26-2016, 01:52 AM
Just to play with this narrative, obviously it probably arrived in England in waves, but thinking down the path of one path, maybe the most common path.

Let's say L21 arrived in the British Isles early on, hence being in Ireland and Scotland regions and generally high amounts over all but South East England. Then as you say later Z142 arrived. Does this narrative then suggest Z142 was smack in the middle of the Celtic Gaul to eventually hop over the waters and make a fairly minor imprint on England overall (and not make it to Ireland really)?

Considering the limited regions of U152 in England does that suggest it was a relatively late comer to there and then could likely place during the Gaul region during the Celtic times?

I'm finding this thread very fascinating too:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7150-Z40481-Splits-R-P312/page4

On a related note I wish I could confirm my Langley's came from England and where. I have yet to map the genealogy back to an immigrant ancestor, some day. Then it will give at least one more point of reference in England.

Maybe with these new SNP packs coming we'll get more Z142's out there.

MitchellSince1893
05-26-2016, 04:39 AM
...Does this narrative then suggest Z142 was smack in the middle of the Celtic Gaul to eventually hop over the waters and make a fairly minor imprint on England overall (and not make it to Ireland really)?

Considering the limited regions of U152 in England does that suggest it was a relatively late comer to there and then could likely place during the Gaul region during the Celtic times?

There is U152 in Ireland (around 2% IIRC) and probably some Z142 as well, but as to when it got there...

I was reading this short article on the history of the Celtic tribes yesterday


...In very basic terms, Europe of the second millennium BC provided a home for a group of recently-arrived Indo-European people who all spoke the same language. This was a centum branch (a West Indo-European-speaking branch) which later divided into the Italic, Celtic, Venetic (of the Adriatic), and probably Liburnian and Illyrian language groups. A date for the split is conjectural, but 3100-2600 BC seems likely [Yfull estimates age of Z142 as between 3000 to 2000 BC]...As time passed these groups began to drift apart, each group speaking the tongue a little differently. Along what was probably the southern and western edge of these tribes, each group began to expand further south and west. One group settled in what is now north-eastern Italy in the region of Venice (the Adriatic Veneti). Another group headed south into the Italian peninsula (the Villanova culture and others). The last group headed west into what is now France, Spain and Portugal...Linguistically, one characteristic of the last group is their retention of a 'kw' sound from the original Indo-European language. Some of these people migrated into the British Isles and spread even farther west to Ireland where their version of the language survives to this day [probably L21 heavy]. But in the old homeland, things were changing. Instead of a short stabbing bronze sword, a long slashing bronze sword became dominant. Instead of the 'kw' sound at the beginning of many words, they were replacing this with 'p' sound [my thought is this group has significant U152]. Population pressures forced these people in the old homeland to migrate outwards; and they did so in all directions: north to the Baltic coastline (the Belgae, among others), east into Eastern Europe, south towards Italy, and west into France (Gaul). They became the dominant society in Europe.
http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/BarbarianCelts.htm

We have Z142 in present day Spain, France, Italy, British Isles, Netherlands, so it's reasonable to consider that Z142 existed during these above mentioned splits between the Italic and Celtic groups...unless one wants to say that Z142 in Italy and Spain is solely of Celtic origin. I don't believe we have enough data at this point to determine this one way or another but there are quite a few Z142 samples in Sardinia which would lean me towards the former as I'm not aware of a Celtic era presence in Sardinia.

At present the FGC22963 branch is solely British, Dutch, and Swiss (to my knowledge), while L562 and Z150 are more widespread over Western Europe. But this may be just because FGC22963 newer, and only has 1/3rd the samples as the other 2 branches.

It used to be thought that Hallstatt/La Tene was the primary vehicle for the Celtic languages in the British Isles. This has since lost favor and a much earlier arrival i.e. Bell Beaker is often viewed as the primary source, with Hallstatt and La Tene later providing additional continental Celtic input primarily to southern and eastern Britain.

From Jean Manco's Ancestral Journeys

...Britain and Ireland were inhabited by people speaking Celtic languages. Who were they? Their origins probably go back to about 2,400 BC, when the first Bell Beaker material appeared in the British Isles.1 Genetically their predominant signature is Y-DNA R1b-L21, which has been found in pre-Roman skeletons in Eastern England...

British (or Brythonic) and Pictish fit into a family of Celtic languages in which the kw sound of Indo-European had shifted to a p sound, known as P-Celtic. There is written evidence of P-Celtic in Northern Italy from 600 BC and it was spoken in Gaul. So we can deduce that this sound-change arrived in Britain with Iron-Age migrants from Gaul. http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/celtictribes.shtml

Again, my present thought is that late Bronze/Iron Age P-Celtic arrivals are going to a significant source for U152 arrival into Britain. We know from the Ramos-Luis
et al., 2009 that U152 is higher in France than Britain
France
Alsace: 22.5%
Nord-Pas-de-Calais: 17.65%
Auvergne: 16.85%
Ile-de-France: 14.29%
Midi-Pyrenees: 13.43%
Provence-Alpes-Cote d'Azur: 11.11%
http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Resources.pdf

And high in Belgium from the Brabant DNA project (http://www.brabant-dna.org/) (Present day France and Belgium made up most of Gaul)
Up to 40% in one Belgian province
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Benelux-map-R1b-S28.jpg

Roman Auxiliaries from these same areas (Lingones, Tungri, Batavi etc in present day France and Belgium) reinforcing the Iron Age arrivals, might explain an apparent U152 hotspot in Northern Britain near Hadrian's Wall.

MitchellSince1893
05-28-2016, 09:19 PM
While not as famous as Halstaat and La Tène; I could see the Vix site, in France having some ancient Z142.


Too bad there is such a negative feeling towards dna testing in France.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vix_Grave

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Another nearby site I would love see dna testing done on. Les Craises circa 450 BC
La chariot burial La Tene WAS ancient of " C raises" to Molinons ( Yonne)

...Despite later pillaging, the goods found in this aristocratic tomb permit a dating to the second quarter of the 5th century BC, and an unusual cultural attribution, on the frontier in the Parisian Basin between the Jura culture to the south and the Marne-Moselle culture to the north...

The skeleton was not in perfect anatomical connection to the time of the search (Fig. 5 and 7). The deceased - all the bones found belong to a single individual - was filed in the supine position, the head facing north, roughly along the longitudinal axis of the pit. The head was at the presumed site of the chariot of the drawbar and feet between the wheels on the axle. With the exception of the right arm, all the bones of the upper limbs disappeared. The lower limbs were represented only by the left femur still in place and the right leg. It remained of the skull fragments of the cap still in place and some teeth; the mandible was found in two pieces in the gutter, in the middle of the long side of the pit, and near the right hand of the deceased. The other parts of the skeleton, including the pool, were attested by a few meager remains in place.

https://rae.revues.org/7472

Location in red

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