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Tomenable
05-07-2016, 04:10 PM
Watch this very interesting documentary:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=HH8Ln4j3X0Q


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HH8Ln4j3X0Q

There were apparently still some >90% EEF populations in the Balkans in Late Bronze Age.

Autosomal comparison of two women buried in the same cemetery, but few centuries apart:

Woman RISE595 (Late Bronze Age Montenegro - Velika Gruda site):

Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers ------- 93.44%
Afanasievo_Yamnaya ------------- 0.00%

Woman RISE596 (Iron Age Montenegro - same site, Velika Gruda):

Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers ------- 49.57%
Afanasievo_Yamnaya ------------- 50.42%

Maybe it had something to do with the Bronze Age collapse in that region?

But didn't Indo-Europeans come to the Balkans already in Coppe Age / Early Bronze Age?

So how is it possible that RISE595 LBA woman had no Steppe admixture.

Montenegro = full of mountains = one of last refuges for Non-IEs descended from EEF?

Tomenable
05-07-2016, 04:22 PM
I think something about that necropoly in Velika Gruda can be found here (but I haven't read it yet):

https://www.academia.edu/6372214/Bronze-Age_stone_tumuli_on_Planinica_hill_obs._Tuzi_Monte negro

Padre Organtino
05-07-2016, 06:36 PM
Food shortage plain and simple

Bane
05-07-2016, 08:32 PM
Montenegro = full of mountains = one of last refuges for Non-IEs descended from EEF?

Probably my comments won't help much, but from my understanding of "dynamics" of Southern Europe I would say South Italy was probably reached by IE people later than Montenegro.

If we limit ourselves to the Balkans only, I think I was writing something similar already - today's population of North Albania appears to be "older" compared to almost all other populations from different regions of the Balkans. And Velika Gruda is not far from North Albania.
What I want to say is I agree that mountains are significant obstacle.

Finally, Illyrians as we know them, may had arisen as a consequence of The Bronze Age Collapse.

Gravetto-Danubian
05-07-2016, 09:13 PM
Are we sure that BA_Montenegro was that high in EEF still ? Oh wait;"CHG" is missing - probably an older calculator

Traditional thought stipulates that IE was already in Balkans by early BA; afterall the Mycenaeans are iE, right ?

Mountains have something to do with it, sure. But we need more aDNA from Balkans Greece and post-Neol Anatolia

Yes I think BA Greece, Balkans etc might have been mostly EEF & CHG ?
The Iron Age Bulgarian published (low res.) by Sikora/ Bastumante looked very "farmer" like

Hando
05-08-2016, 05:43 AM
]Are we sure that BA_Montenegro was that high in EEF still ?[/B] Oh wait;"CHG" is missing - probably an older calculator

Traditional thought stipulates that IE was already in Balkans by early BA; afterall the Mycenaeans are iE, right ?

Mountains have something to do with it, sure. But we need more aDNA from Balkans Greece and post-Neol Anatolia

Yes I think BA Greece, Balkans etc might have been mostly EEF & CHG ?
The Iron Age Bulgarian published (low res.) by Sikora/ Bastumante looked very "farmer" like
I am confused as to which is your opinion vis a vis EEF in Balkan Bronze Age.
Do you think that the Balkans was mostly EEF or a mix of EEF and IE?
Thanks

Gravetto-Danubian
05-08-2016, 06:42 AM
I am confused as to which is your opinion vis a vis EEF in Balkan Bronze Age.
Do you think that the Balkans was mostly EEF or a mix of EEF and IE?
Thanks

There is no such thing as an "IE" genetic component, strictly. When discussing components, we generally use the 4 base components found by the Mesolithic ; WHG, EHG, CHG, and ANF (='Anatolian farmer"; or baser still Basal Eurasian + UHG/WHG)

We only have 1 decent Balkan BA sample (not including Hungary - which isn't "Balkans"), the lady from VG - Montenegro.
The original paper's plots weren't easy to inspect visually http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4640-Population-genomics-of-Bronze-Age-Eurasia-(Allentoft-et-al-2015)/page4

Davidski did a PCA for it, and BA_Montenegro looked similar to BA Hungary, and plots near modern SW Europeans. So it has evidence of steppe admixture; but the Eurogenes plot was not able to properly break it down in terms of percentages of the above ancient clusters , due to low SNP cover. http://polishgenes.blogspot.com.au/2016/02/pca-of-rise595-rise596-and-rise598.html

(So, I'm not sure where Tomenable got his figure of only 7%).

But back to your specific question, I think BA Balkans will have steppe admixture, but less. It'll probably look similar to BA Armenians, but possibly with a different assortment of Y Haploid markers due to different specific migrations.

Tomenable
05-08-2016, 07:27 AM
(So, I'm not sure where Tomenable got his figure of only 7%).

Actually 0% not 7%, from this link posted by Kurd:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5652-Ancients-with-DNA-land&p=115787&viewfull=1#post115787

Direct link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-ObXiVfL-Rza0VDbDFGZzJzRzQ/view?pli=1

Gravetto-Danubian
05-08-2016, 08:44 AM
Actually 0% not 7%, from this link posted by Kurd:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5652-Ancients-with-DNA-land&p=115787&viewfull=1#post115787

Direct link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-ObXiVfL-Rza0VDbDFGZzJzRzQ/view?pli=1

Interesting. BA Hungary (c. 1800 BC) 1 has 12%, LBA Montenegro (~ 15- 1000 BC) has 0% Yamnaya.

I have 3 questions:

* Assuming this is correct (I have no reason to doubt Kurd's work), what's your interpretation, pending a more complete set of samples ? (I'd still like to see a CHG / EHG / EEF / WHG stat)

* How would you breakdown this "Balkan farmer" ancestry further ?

* what do you guess Mycenean genomes will show ?

Hando
05-08-2016, 04:21 PM
Interesting. BA Hungary (c. 1800 BC) 1 has 12%, LBA Montenegro (~ 15- 1000 BC) has 0% Yamnaya.

I have 3 questions:

* Assuming this is correct (I have no reason to doubt Kurd's work), what's your interpretation, pending a more complete set of samples ? (I'd still like to see a CHG / EHG / EEF / WHG stat)

* How would you breakdown this "Balkan farmer" ancestry further ?

* what do you guess Mycenean genomes will show ?

Ah, so now it appears that BA Balkans/Montenegro does not have steppe admixture. So does this mean Bronze Age Armenians had more steppe admixture, while the BA Balkans was purely EEF?

Gravetto-Danubian
05-09-2016, 03:50 AM
Ah, so now it appears that BA Balkans/Montenegro does not have steppe admixture. So does this mean Bronze Age Armenians had more steppe admixture, while the BA Balkans was purely EEF?

We can't answer that question at present, because we only have 1 or 2 BA Balkan samples, and they were analysed in a different way to the BA Armenians. For example, the 50% steppe ancestry BA Armenians got doesn't make sense to me, as their EHG levels are low (5-10%) when using different ADMIXTURE method. So I'm not sure what Kurd's "Yamnaya- Afansievo' component is actually detecting, but possibly something more general around the Pontic-Caucasus region .

However, it does seem that there isn't much steppe ancestry in the Balkans until rather late; and I wonder if it'll be a similar story in places like Italy ? But really, the present sample bank does not allow for definite conclusions, and once we get samples from areas beside western Europe and a few spots in Russia, we'll get a clearer picture about population movements as well as their implications for PIE.

Hando
05-09-2016, 04:02 AM
We can't answer that question at present, because we only have 1 or 2 BA Balkan samples, and they were analysed in a different way to the BA Armenians. For example, the 50% steppe ancestry BA Armenians got doesn't make sense to me, as their EHG levels are low (5-10%) when using different ADMIXTURE method. So I'm not sure what Kurd's "Yamnaya- Afansievo' component is actually detecting, but possibly something more general around the Pontic-Caucasus region .

However, it does seem that there isn't much steppe ancestry in the Balkans until rather late; and I wonder if it'll be a similar story in places like Italy ? But really, the present sample bank does not allow for definite conclusions, and once we get samples from areas beside western Europe and a few spots in Russia, we'll get a clearer picture about population movements as well as their implications for PIE.
And Mycenae. :)
Thanks