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Alanson
05-09-2016, 04:30 AM
Can an Arabian section be formed, dealing with Arabiab/Arab stuff. I see Caucasus and African ect.

MsSPF
05-10-2016, 12:24 PM
I was teasing you haha thanks��
A MENA section is a good idea .. I took a quick look it is missing.

dp
05-10-2016, 06:16 PM
I vote for MENA.
dp

Moderator
05-13-2016, 09:02 PM
[MOD] Posts deemed to breech section 3.10 removed or edited.

Thanks for your suggestion Alanson. The administration had discussed an Arabic language section at Anthrogenica when the International Area was first introduced. We will re-assess as required shortly.

Just to clarify, the majority of the International Area sections were formulated based on language needs. The African and Caucasus sections are temporary constructs until the level of activity necessitates the creation of separate sub-sections within them in the future.

sam-iJ-ZS1727
10-06-2017, 10:56 PM
I agree with you, we really need an arabian section. Especially when we know that the number of Arabs testing their DNA is huge. There's a feeling when we read certain subjects of the forum that there is some anti-arabic Racism. For examples, all europeans that have results in the J1 haplogroups which is well spread among arab populations, are suggested by some people in the forum to find their ancestors only among Phoenicians or jews when it is obvious that Arabian origin is more obvious. As arab, when i read certain comments, i feel that for those people, being Arab is a Crime-like.

Batroun
10-06-2017, 11:01 PM
I agree with you, we really need an arabian section. Especially when we know that the number of Arabs testing their DNA is huge. There's a feeling when we read certain subjects of the forum that there is some anti-arabic Racism. For examples, all europeans that have results in the J1 haplogroups which is well spread among arab populations, are suggested by some people in the forum to find their ancestors only among Phoenicians or jews when it is obvious that Arabian origin is more obvious. As arab, when i read certain comments, i feel that for those people, being Arab is a Crime-like.

I think it's more along the lines that Arabs use J1 to spread their so called false "Nationalism". You do realize Arabia isn't the center of the world right? Also Y DNA haplogroup is only a very small part of ancestry, aDNA is far larger. You can be J1, and have 99% European blood

sam-iJ-ZS1727
10-07-2017, 01:03 AM
I think it's more along the lines that Arabs use J1 to spread their so called false "Nationalism". You do realize Arabia isn't the center of the world right? Also Y DNA haplogroup is only a very small part of ancestry, aDNA is far larger. You can be J1, and have 99% European blood

There is no things called ''arab Blood'' or ''European Blood''...i am talking about Facts, j1 is the most important haplogroup among arabs. When we talk about Sicily, for example, 200 years of Arab presence can explain the presence of most J1 samples...Cananites, for examples, does no longer exist, anyone can pretend he's Cananite, i am from Tunisia, ancient Carthage, i can pretend i am Cananite...PRETEND, that is the word, but we know that most important immigration is from ARAB tribes. when i find the same haplogroup that i belong to in great number in arab countries, i can certainly say i am ARAB. I won't find some imaginary line from Ancient Canaan...
Anyway, it's not our Subject...the subject is that many want an ARABIAN Forum. It is your right to say you're not Arab, not our matter, we want an arab sub-forum, so we, those who say they are ARABS, can share their informations without being segregated. You can discuss the ARABICITY of our gene or not, but, in an ARAB section.

Batroun
10-07-2017, 01:11 AM
There is no things called ''arab Blood'' or ''European Blood''...i am talking about Facts, j1 is the most important haplogroup among arabs. When we talk about Sicily, for example, 200 years of Arab presence can explain the presence of most J1 samples...Cananites, for examples, does no longer exist, anyone can pretend he's Cananite, i am from Tunisia, ancient Carthage, i can pretend i am Cananite...PRETEND, that is the word, but we know that most important immigration is from ARAB tribes. when i find the same haplogroup that i belong to in great number in arab countries, i can certainly say i am ARAB. I won't find some imaginary line from Ancient Canaan...
Anyway, it's not our Subject...the subject is that many want an ARABIAN Forum. It is your right to say you're not Arab, not our matter, we want an arab sub-forum, so we, those who say they are ARABS, can share their informations without being segregated. You can discuss the ARABICITY of our gene or not, but, in an ARAB section.


I will refrain from continuing because I'd like to continue this discussion elsewhere. I have much to say but we would need a separate thread.

sam-iJ-ZS1727
10-07-2017, 01:16 AM
I will refrain from continuing because I'd like to continue this discussion elsewhere. I have much to say but we would need a separate thread.

Especially when we know that your Haplogroup is not Canaanite one, it is from South Arabia (Ancient Yemen)...but that is an other discussion that will be better an a subgroup for Arab DNA.

Batroun
10-07-2017, 04:31 AM
Especially when we know that your Haplogroup is not Canaanite one, it is from South Arabia (Ancient Yemen)...but that is an other discussion that will be better an a subgroup for Arab DNA.

double post*

Batroun
10-07-2017, 04:32 AM
Especially when we know that your Haplogroup is not Canaanite one, it is from South Arabia (Ancient Yemen)...but that is an other discussion that will be better an a subgroup for Arab DNA.

Please state your source? i find it quite hilarious when Arab nationalists claim j1 people are all Arabs when j1 reaches very high in Caucuses, does that mean we are all from caucuses too? lol and agian aDNA trumps Y DNa... You must be confusing Semetic with Arab. Arabs are Semites but most semites aren't arabs....

sam-iJ-ZS1727
10-07-2017, 05:47 AM
Please state your source? i find it quite hilarious when Arab nationalists claim j1 people are all Arabs when j1 reaches very high in Caucuses, does that mean we are all from caucuses too? lol and agian aDNA trumps Y DNa... You must be confusing Semetic with Arab. Arabs are Semites but most semites aren't arabs....
I didn't say ARAB, i said South Arabia, Yemen...your haplogroup, i guess, L93 is only found in Yemen, in Hadramut in many members of tribes there ( the Sadaf tribe, The Si'er tribe and the Mahra tribe )...Those tribes Belong to the ancient Kinda tribe. Kinda was a famous tribe in the history of the middle east, part of kinda became Jewish ( Himyarite Vassals ) and the majority became christians and they were soldiers for the byzantine dynasty. One of their kings was called Caisus (Qais ) and was ''Vir gloriosus'' a high rank in the Roman society. Some kinda members immigrated to Palestine in the 5th century and were of christian faith. One of their queens were HIND who conducted the building of ''the Hind Monastery'' ''Deir Hind''...the inscriptions on the manastery are important for the ARABIC language, it was written in an ARABIC tongue not aramaic or cyriac as all other arab christians did before. The Arab poet Imri'u Al Qais is a descendant of Kinda Tribe.
on this FTDNA project, you're going to find names under L93 and J-ZS1281, almost all of them say that they belong to Kindah tribe.
familytreedna.com/public/J-M267/default.aspx?section=yresults
it's up to you to consider yourself as an Arab or not, but for me, and for science, you're from Yemeni origins.

Agamemnon
10-07-2017, 02:09 PM
While I'd certainly like to see an Arabic sub-forum here, I'm not sure we have enough Arabic speakers here to justify the creation of such a such a sub-forum. One of the problems I can also foresee is the appearance of some of the more bigoted elements present on Arab DNA fora (that I've been observing for several years now), this would create a very hostile environment which isn't exactly conducive to fact-based discussions. Throw in the religious discourse that comes along with these folks and it would get even worse.



Especially when we know that your Haplogroup is not Canaanite one, it is from South Arabia (Ancient Yemen)...but that is an other discussion that will be better an a subgroup for Arab DNA.

Actually, we don't know that. As a matter of fact, we don't even know Batroun's branch under J1-Z1865. Furthermore J1 seems to have been linked to CHG-rich populations during the last 10,000 years, this is congruent with J1's phylogeography indicating a north-to-south spread in SW Asia. And most of the stories attributing undue credit to South Arabia in the region's demographic history are tied to traditional Arab historiography, which isn't supported by the data (though I concede that we have no ancient data from Southern Arabia). You see, this is what I have in mind when I speak of the "hostile environment" I mentioned above. When it's not about Abraham's haplogroup, it's about how we're all Arabs. One thing people on Arab DNA fora need to understand is that virtually every non-African individual has ancestors who came from Arabia at some point in prehistory, that doesn't mean the Itelmen are Arabs for example. "Arab" is a very specific term which strong tribal connotations, none of this applies to South Arabian civilisation quite frankly (one of the major caveats of traditional Arab historiography I might add).

kostoffj
10-07-2017, 02:42 PM
I agree with you, we really need an arabian section. Especially when we know that the number of Arabs testing their DNA is huge. There's a feeling when we read certain subjects of the forum that there is some anti-arabic Racism. For examples, all europeans that have results in the J1 haplogroups which is well spread among arab populations, are suggested by some people in the forum to find their ancestors only among Phoenicians or jews when it is obvious that Arabian origin is more obvious. As arab, when i read certain comments, i feel that for those people, being Arab is a Crime-like.

lol that was one guy, and a lot of people teased him over that.

MikeWhalen
10-07-2017, 04:53 PM
Sam-iJ-ZS1727
I take exception to your description that there is some racism tolerated in this Forum. There is not.
I think the mods and admins and general community here has been pretty clear and consistent in not tolerating any group or individual being abused or lied about, be it Arab, Jew, Irish or Apache.

Time after time public warnings, and if necessary bans, have occurred in pretty much every forum or sub forum for vexatious and untrue statements. Every ethnicity or other type of 'grouping' has at one time or another had at least 1 person kicked out because of their blithering nonsense.
We dont play favorites here and its clear this site is recognized as trying very hard to keep things civilized and scientifically valid

Of course, this forum is not very tolerant of chauvinists that have their own nasty little batch of prejudices that either elevate their favorite group over others, or put down and demean some other group or repeat some old disproven junk that was fashionable 100 yrs ago
...those guys never last cause they cant tolerate the bright light of rationality and scientific method being applied to their pet belief

For what ever its worth, I support a sub forum for any group that has enough people active to make it worth while, just as long as the conversations are all out in the open so folks know it has not devolved down into something secret or ugly

my 2 cents

Mike


I agree with you, we really need an arabian section. Especially when we know that the number of Arabs testing their DNA is huge. There's a feeling when we read certain subjects of the forum that there is some anti-arabic Racism. For examples, all europeans that have results in the J1 haplogroups which is well spread among arab populations, are suggested by some people in the forum to find their ancestors only among Phoenicians or jews when it is obvious that Arabian origin is more obvious. As arab, when i read certain comments, i feel that for those people, being Arab is a Crime-like.

sam-iJ-ZS1727
10-07-2017, 04:59 PM
While I'd certainly like to see an Arabic sub-forum here, I'm not sure we have enough Arabic speakers here to justify the creation of such a such a sub-forum. One of the problems I can also foresee is the appearance of some of the more bigoted elements present on Arab DNA fora (that I've been observing for several years now), this would create a very hostile environment which isn't exactly conducive to fact-based discussions. Throw in the religious discourse that comes along with these folks and it would get even worse.






Actually, we don't know that. As a matter of fact, we don't even know Batroun's branch under J1-Z1865. Furthermore J1 seems to have been linked to CHG-rich populations during the last 10,000 years, this is congruent with J1's phylogeography indicating a north-to-south spread in SW Asia. And most of the stories attributing undue credit to South Arabia in the region's demographic history are tied to traditional Arab historiography, which isn't supported by the data (though I concede that we have no ancient data from Southern Arabia). You see, this is what I have in mind when I speak of the "hostile environment" I mentioned above. When it's not about Abraham's haplogroup, it's about how we're all Arabs. One thing people on Arab DNA fora need to understand is that virtually every non-African individual has ancestors who came from Arabia at some point in prehistory, that doesn't mean the Itelmen are Arabs for example. "Arab" is a very specific term which strong tribal connotations, none of this applies to South Arabian civilisation quite frankly (one of the major caveats of traditional Arab historiography I might add).

L93 is a rare group, it is only found in Yemeni tribes, in Hadramut...that has no relation with religion or whatever Religious problem you have. The guy says he's from Cananite ancestor. The only persons that have his DNA are from Yemen, from existing tribes that have history back to Kinda. I explained how kinda was a Christian Tribe and how members of this tribe went to Palestine and the levant...Greek Historians talk about that, not me.
I know the history of J1, i know that it is from caucasus, my reference to Christian religion for kinda tribe is to explain to the guy how some christians in Lebanon, who pretend they are phoenicians, have yemeni origins...
It seems to me You have racial prejudice on Arabs, and you don't want an arabic forum because of religious prejudices too...Not all the arabs are Religious fanatics, and when i talk about statistics, we talk about science, if the statistics show that a rare haplogroup belongs to an existing tribe in a certain country, it doesn't mean we talk about RELIGION or that we say all the j1 haplogroups belong to YEMEN.

sam-iJ-ZS1727
10-07-2017, 05:07 PM
Sam-iJ-ZS1727
I take exception to your description that there is some racism tolerated in this Forum. There is not.
I think the mods and admins and general community here has been pretty clear and consistent in not tolerating any group or individual being abused or lied about, be it Arab, Jew, Irish or Apache.

Time after time public warnings, and if necessary bans, have occurred in pretty much every forum or sub forum for vexatious and untrue statements. Every ethnicity or other type of 'grouping' has at one time or another had at least 1 person kicked out because of their blithering nonsense.
We dont play favorites here and its clear this site is recognized as trying very hard to keep things civilized and scientifically valid

Of course, this forum is not very tolerant of chauvinists that have their own nasty little batch of prejudices that either elevate their favorite group over others, or put down and demean some other group or repeat some old disproven junk that was fashionable 100 yrs ago
...those guys never last cause they cant tolerate the bright light of rationality and scientific method being applied to their pet belief

For what ever its worth, I support a sub forum for any group that has enough people active to make it worth while, just as long as the conversations are all out in the open so folks know it has not devolved down into something secret or ugly

my 2 cents

Mike

An arab sub forum will show that i Anti-arab racism in this forum is not a true...you see, one guy talks about arab sub-forum and 10 guys attack him. I feel already that i am judged as MUSLIM FANATIC and ARAB FANATIC. I feel that some people here find that ARABS are not too intelligent to have their own discussions. Let us discuss, then if you find that we are Fanatics, kick us out...i feel already that i am defending myself...that's why arab people leave the forum and you find no one to discuss with.

Agamemnon
10-07-2017, 05:13 PM
L93 is a rare group, it is only found in Yemeni tribes, in Hadramut...that has no relation with religion or whatever Religious problem you have. The guy says he's from Cananite ancestor. The only persons that have his DNA are from Yemen, from existing tribes that have history back to Kinda. I explained how kinda was a Christian Tribe and how members of this tribe went to Palestine and the levant...Greek Historians talk about that, not me.
I know the history of J1, i know that it is from caucasus, my reference to Christian religion for kinda tribe is to explain to the guy how some christians in Lebanon, who pretend they are phoenicians, have yemeni origins...
It seems to me You have racial prejudice on Arabs, and you don't want an arabic forum because of religious prejudices too...Not all the arabs are Religious fanatics, and when i talk about statistics, we talk about science, if the statistics show that a rare haplogroup belongs to an existing tribe in a certain country, it doesn't mean we talk about RELIGION or that we say all the j1 haplogroups belong to YEMEN.

I don't know why you're bringing L93 up, Batroun is L93- (PF4678 is a Z1865 equivalent, so he'll test negative for L93). If anything, he'll probably end up being positive for a branch of L858 that was common among the Phoenicians (probably not FGC11 but you never know, one of the Middle Bronze Age Sidonians was FGC11 after all). Therefore what you're saying about his paternal ancestors coming from Yemen sounds somewhat spurious.

I have no prejudice against Arabs, I grew up around Arabs myself. I am not saying that all Arabs are religious fanatics, however you cannot deny that mixing religion with genetics (especially Y-DNA lineages) is a very common theme on Arab DNA fora, this phenomenon has even spread to Twitter. Also, since I've been observing Arab DNA fora for some time now, I know there definitely are some folks who claim that virtually every branch of J1 came from Yemen. I've seen several threads (and tweets for that matter) claiming that my own branch of J1 (ZS241) is Himyarite for example.

That being said, I am not opposed to an Arabic sub-forum here.

vettor
10-07-2017, 05:14 PM
I get confused with what is the term Arabian. What is it used for here?

Is it

1- The Arabian peninsula , which includes Saudis, Omanis, Yemeni and others

2- Is it the language only

or another which I am unaware of

For me, and I can be completely wrong, I always referred to Arabian in only a linguistic method, similar to English ( we all speak English , but we are all not from England )

Agamemnon
10-07-2017, 05:21 PM
I get confused with what is the term Arabian. What is it used for here?

Is it

1- The Arabian peninsula , which includes Saudis, Omanis, Yemeni and others

2- Is it the language only

or another which I am unaware of

For me, and I can be completely wrong, I always referred to Arabian in only a linguistic method, similar to English ( we all speak English , but we are all not from England )

I assume what is really meant here is "Arabic language sub-forum", "Arabian" has more to do with geography.

Power77
10-07-2017, 05:30 PM
While I'm not opposed to an Arabic sub-forum, I'd still be pretty sad if such a forum were to transform into some sort of Arabocentric propaganda tool. Arabocentrists are hardly better than Afroloons and Nutzis in my book.

sam-iJ-ZS1727
10-07-2017, 05:57 PM
I don't know why you're bringing L93 up, Batroun is L93- (PF4678 is a Z1865 equivalent, so he'll test negative for L93). If anything, he'll probably end up being positive for a branch of L858 that was common among the Phoenicians (probably not FGC11 but you never know, one of the Middle Bronze Age Sidonians was FGC11 after all). Therefore what you're saying about his paternal ancestors coming from Yemen sounds somewhat spurious.

I have no prejudice against Arabs, I grew up around Arabs myself. I am not saying that all Arabs are religious fanatics, however you cannot deny that mixing religion with genetics (especially Y-DNA lineages) is a very common theme on Arab DNA fora, this phenomenon has even spread to Twitter. Also, since I've been observing Arab DNA fora for some time now, I know there definitely are some folks who claim that virtually every branch of J1 came from Yemen. I've seen several threads (and tweets for that matter) claiming that my own branch of J1 (ZS241) is Himyarite for example.

That being said, I am not opposed to an Arabic sub-forum here.

When you put your haplogroup is J-PF4678 it means you belong to the L93 or J-ZS1281 sub-groups. Saying that you belong only to J-PF4678 means that you are Super man, it's like if we found Adam first tribe. I presumed that he was talking about L93 which is found only in YEMEN, that's a fact that no one can change.
Now, let's talk about Arabic speaking forums, i know there is lot of religious mythic discussions there that end by disputes, but many discussions are really interesting and intelligent.
You talk as if all Arabs are fanatics who live in myths. I am from those who think that the main J1 middle eastern origin is from the geographic location on the red sea, south of Palestine, jordan, west Saudi arabia and west Yemen ( called Tuhama ) and the Sinai. i don't belong to those who think that all that folks come from Yemen.
Thosethings we can discuss in an Arabian Sub forum.

sam-iJ-ZS1727
10-07-2017, 06:01 PM
I get confused with what is the term Arabian. What is it used for here?

Is it

1- The Arabian peninsula , which includes Saudis, Omanis, Yemeni and others

2- Is it the language only

or another which I am unaware of

For me, and I can be completely wrong, I always referred to Arabian in only a linguistic method, similar to English ( we all speak English , but we are all not from England )
Since there is a sub forum for : Persian, turks, Greeks, Kurds...i mean a forum for people from Arabis speaking countries. ( 300 million people ).

sam-iJ-ZS1727
10-07-2017, 06:04 PM
While I'm not opposed to an Arabic sub-forum, I'd still be pretty sad if such a forum were to transform into some sort of Arabocentric propaganda tool. Arabocentrists are hardly better than Afroloons and Nutzis in my book.

That's racist and a prejudice.
why when there's a sub-forum for Turks or Portugal we don't talk about Turcocentric or Portugocentric ?

Agamemnon
10-07-2017, 06:12 PM
When you put your haplogroup is J-PF4678 it means you belong to the L93 or J-ZS1281 sub-groups. Saying that you belong only to J-PF4678 means that you are Super man, it's like if we found Adam first tribe. I presumed that he was talking about L93 which is found only in YEMEN, that's a fact that no one can change.
Now, let's talk about Arabic speaking forums, i know there is lot of religious mythic discussions there that end by disputes, but many discussions are really interesting and intelligent.
You talk as if all Arabs are fanatics who live in myths. I am from those who think that the main J1 middle eastern origin is from the geographic location on the red sea, south of Palestine, jordan, west Saudi arabia and west Yemen ( called Tuhama ) and the Sinai. i don't belong to those who think that all that folks come from Yemen.
Thosethings we can discuss in an Arabian Sub forum.

PF4678 is a Z1865 equivalent, in other words it's a branch of Z1878. L93 is another branch of Z1878, so it's impossible to be L93+ and PF4678+ at the same time, we're dealing with entirely different branches here. For instance, you're YSC76, so that means you're also Z1865+ and therefore PF4678+ as well.

There are many interesting discussions on Arab DNA fora, some are quite entertaining as well. However we cannot overlook the fact that the Arab world is going through a very tumultuous period and that these discussion boards tend to reflect the woes Arab societies suffer from. BTW I maintain that J1-L862 and most of its branches (Z18297, Z2324, ZS2518, YSC234, etc) are bound to come from the Southern Levant (Negev, Sinai/NW Arabia), this is the most convincing explanation considering the ancient data and this lineage's association with Semitic speakers.


why when there's a sub-forum for Turks or Portugal we don't talk about Turcocentric or Portugocentric ?

Well, truth be told, I've never seen Portuguese people claim that the Iberian peninsula is the PIE urheimat and that all Indo-Europeans are Portuguese. Many Arabs do claim that all Semitic peoples came from the Arabian peninsula, this is taught in Arab schools and is part and parcel of the national narrative despite the fact that these theories have been disproven a long time ago. Some countries like Morocco even teach that the Berbers were Arabs (who came from Yemen), there's also an entire literature in Egypt bent on Arabising the Ancient Egyptians. This does exist with the Turks however, Turanists go as far as to claim that Sumerians, Hurrians, Scythians, Etruscans and several other ancient peoples were Turkic in origin, I've often criticised that brand of ethnocentrism on this forum.

vettor
10-07-2017, 06:40 PM
I assume what is really meant here is "Arabic language sub-forum", "Arabian" has more to do with geography.


Thanks

From what I read and remember.......
The term Arab in the post Roman times referred to an area between the Sinai and Yemen on the western side of the Arabian Peninsula , along the red sea.
They, in majority, pre-muslim religion ~600AD, ........practised a pagan religion.

I am unsure if Bedouins fit with this term Arab.

Would this be correct?

sam-iJ-ZS1727
10-07-2017, 06:45 PM
PF4678 is a Z1865 equivalent, in other words it's a branch of Z1878. L93 is another branch of Z1878, so it's impossible to be L93+ and PF4678+ at the same time, we're dealing with entirely different branches here. For instance, you're YSC76, so that means you're also Z1865+ and therefore PF4678+ as well.

There are many interesting discussions on Arab DNA fora, some are quite entertaining as well. However we cannot overlook the fact that the Arab world is going through a very tumultuous period and that these discussion boards tend to reflect the woes Arab societies suffer from. BTW I maintain that J1-L862 and most of its branches (Z18297, Z2324, ZS2518, YSC234, etc) are bound to come from the Southern Levant (Negev, Sinai/NW Arabia), this is the most convincing explanation considering the ancient data and this lineage's association with Semitic speakers.



Well, truth be told, I've never seen Portuguese people claim that the Iberian peninsula is the PIE urheimat and that all Indo-Europeans are Portuguese. Many Arabs do claim that all Semitic peoples came from the Arabian peninsula, this is taught in Arab schools and is part and parcel of the national narrative despite the fact that these theories have been disproven a long time ago. Some countries like Morocco even teach that the Berbers were Arabs (who came from Yemen), there's also an entire literature in Egypt bent on Arabising the Ancient Egyptians. This does exist with the Turks however, Turanists go as far as to claim that Sumerians, Hurrians, Scythians, Etruscans and several other ancient peoples were Turkic in origin, I've often criticised that brand of ethnocentrism on this forum.

You have to update your informations. Z1978 does not exist anymore. the new tree DNA is P58---PF4678 and the nain Subgroups for PF4678 are L93 and Z1865. Z1865 has more than 100 subgroups, but L93 has only one, which is ZS1281. L93 is a main Branch. The branches you are talking about were in the classification in 3 years ago. So when you talk about PF4678 you talk about L93, and you are yemeni, or Z1865 and you can't say exactly to which of the more 100 subgroups you belong to.

You are representing Arabs as extremists, fanatics and not worthy to have sub-forum and at the same time you say that you are for an Arabian Sub-group????
It seems that you have prophetic vision of an extremist sub-group with people talking about religion and obliging other people to become ARABS.
You are talking about arabic forums as extremist people talking...i found precious informations in arabic forums that i don't find here...when someone in this forum finds himself in a haplkogroup that is found in 1000 Arabs in saudi arabia, people here tell him he is of Phoenician ancestor or of Jewish ancestor......i find that, really, really, stupid and fanatic.

Agamemnon
10-07-2017, 07:26 PM
You have to update your informations. Z1978 does not exist anymore. the new tree DNA is P58---PF4678 and the nain Subgroups for PF4678 are L93 and Z1865. Z1865 has more than 100 subgroups, but L93 has only one, which is ZS1281. L93 is a main Branch. The branches you are talking about were in the classification in 3 years ago. So when you talk about PF4678 you talk about L93, and you are yemeni, or Z1865 and you can't say exactly to which of the more 100 subgroups you belong to.

PF4678 is listed as a Z643 equivalent on YFull, in this tree Z643 is ancestral to both Z1865 and L93. The truth however is that YFull tends to put different lineages on the same level, so for example ZS222 and Z18271 are placed on the same level and are listed as equivalents in this tree while in fact ZS222 is upstream and Z18271 is actually downstream.


You are representing Arabs as extremists, fanatics and not worthy to have sub-forum and at the same time you say that you are for an Arabian Sub-group????
It seems that you have prophetic vision of an extremist sub-group with people talking about religion and obliging other people to become ARABS.
You are talking about arabic forums as extremist people talking...i found precious informations in arabic forums that i don't find here...when someone in this forum finds himself in a haplkogroup that is found in 1000 Arabs in saudi arabia, people here tell him he is of Phoenician ancestor or of Jewish ancestor......i find that, really, really, stupid and fanatic.

You keep making baseless assertions I'm afraid. Again, you cannot deny that the main focus for many Arab DNA fora revolves around religious narratives. There's also no denying the fact that supremacist discourse is widespread on such discussion boards. I don't know what's so controversial about that, this is but a simple fact. I see no contradiction between my stance on the creation of an Arab language sub-forum (which I support) and my warning as to the problems we might encounter in such a sub-forum, I am merely stressing that appropriate moderation ought to be applied.

sam-iJ-ZS1727
10-07-2017, 08:04 PM
PF4678 is listed as a Z643 equivalent on YFull, in this tree Z643 is ancestral to both Z1865 and L93. The truth however is that YFull tends to put different lineages on the same level, so for example ZS222 and Z18271 are placed on the same level and are listed as equivalents in this tree while in fact ZS222 is upstream and Z18271 is actually downstream.



You keep making baseless assertions I'm afraid. Again, you cannot deny that the main focus for many Arab DNA fora revolves around religious narratives. There's also no denying the fact that supremacist discourse is widespread on such discussion boards. I don't know what's so controversial about that, this is but a simple fact. I see no contradiction between my stance on the creation of an Arab language sub-forum (which I support) and my warning as to the problems we might encounter in such a sub-forum, I am merely stressing that appropriate moderation ought to be applied.

Z643 does not exist anymore and replaced by PF4678 with 2 main branches who are L93 and Z1865...Z1865 has more than 100 subgroups, not the L93 which is too rare and represents a main branch by itself and all people agree that it is South arabian ( at least with the resuts we have ).

you know, if i say the same words about your ethnic group, you're gonna sue me in court...you remind me of those people who say always : ''I am not Racist, BUT...'' there is always a BUT...i don't say you're a racist, BUT, you are insisting on judging a whole Nation through a forum.

You know, i feel there is some kind of racism in this forum against Arabs, i will survive if there is no Arabic sub-group, but, you have to face the truth : The forum here is not so different of the arabic speaking forums, but some people think their Racism and extremism is more CIVILIZED than others.

I think we are discussing for nothing. Thank you.

Agamemnon
10-07-2017, 08:22 PM
Z643 does not exist anymore and replaced by PF4678 with 2 main branches who are L93 and Z1865...Z1865 has more than 100 subgroups, not the L93 which is too rare and represents a main branch by itself and all people agree that it is South arabian ( at least with the resuts we have ).

You might want to have that discussion with YFull. L93 is common among the Mahra if I'm not mistaken, so yes it does look like a typical SW Arabian branch of J1. However Batroun does not carry this marker.


you know, if i say the same words about your ethnic group, you're gonna sue me in court...you remind me of those people who say always : ''I am not Racist, BUT...'' there is always a BUT...i don't say you're a racist, BUT, you are insisting on judging a whole Nation through a forum.

You know, i feel there is some kind of racism in this forum against Arabs, i will survive if there is no Arabic sub-group, but, you have to face the truth : The forum here is not so different of the arabic speaking forums, but some people think their Racism and extremism is more CIVILIZED than others.

I think we are discussing for nothing. Thank you.

I'm not judging anyone, I'm merely stating a simple fact, namely that supremacist and religious discourse is widespread on Arab DNA fora, and that we should expect some of this here if we end up having an Arabic language sub-forum. Nothing unreasonable about this, you out of all people should be the first to acknowledge this. As far as Jews are of concern, we also have our fruitcakes, but they're generally far more tame and compliant in comparison.

I see no racism on this forum, I don't know where you saw people being told that they're not Arabs when they ended up carrying a typically Arabian paternal lineage, I used to be a moderator on the Y-DNA J section and I clearly remember saying the exact opposite (with regards to the Graham cluster IIRC).

MikeWhalen
10-07-2017, 08:32 PM
I am starting to think we have heard this particular song before and we know how it ends
this kid is just spoiling for a fight, and will twist anything and everything said to get one

I am out of here

Mike





you know, if i say the same words about your ethnic group, you're gonna sue me in court...you remind me of those people who say always : ''I am not Racist, BUT...'' there is always a BUT...i don't say you're a racist, BUT, you are insisting on judging a whole Nation through a forum.

You know, i feel there is some kind of racism in this forum against Arabs, i will survive if there is no Arabic sub-group, but, you have to face the truth : The forum here is not so different of the arabic speaking forums, but some people think their Racism and extremism is more CIVILIZED than others.

I think we are discussing for nothing. Thank you.

Humanist
10-07-2017, 10:59 PM
Please remain civil in your discourse. This thread is being monitored by the staff. Thank you for your cooperation.

DMXX
10-12-2017, 06:07 PM
Addressing the points raised in this thread briefly with an overview of the reasoning that precedes the creation of International Area sections:

1) Language subsections with the highest numbers of speakers were envisaged for this forum since the creation of our International Area.

2) In the event the subsection is anticipated to generate a high administrative workload, we require the presence of a) An appointed moderator or administrator that is conversant in the section's relevant language(s) and b) there is sufficient demand for it by our members.

3) Priority is given to subsections that either have exceptionally high demand among our users in terms of generated content (e.g. Celtic section) or there is a perceived absence for a dedicated area in other venues (e.g. Kurdish section)

Relating each of these to the specific case of an Arabic subsection:

1) We considered an Arabic language subsection since the IA was created.

2) We could not locate a reliable moderator to oversee such a section and none of the current administration are conversant in Arabic. Agamemnon's comments regarding the frequent invocation of religion and politics highlight our conclusion fully. There cannot be an Arabic subsection on this forum without the appointment of a moderator who may faithfully uphold our ToS in such an area. This is the main limitation at present.

3) There already are a sufficient number of other venues where Arabic discussions relating to genetics and genealogy may take place. Therefore, the priority for an Arabic subsection here is low.

In summary, we have been open to hosting an Arabic language subsection on Anthrogenica since the creation of the IA, but the circumstances have not proven suitable just yet. Due to identical circumstances, we do not host a Mandarin or Cantonese section (and no longer host a Finnish one).

I hope that soundly clarifies our current situation, while also revealing the incendiary and spurious nature of these racism accusations by this new user (this isn't the 90's and this isn't a trigger-prone SJW den; reason is the expected tool of discourse in this forum and not label-slinging). If you intend to make a meaningful contribution to this forum, please address this tendency ASAP.

I also hope this post serves as an advertisement of sorts for any of our regulars who speak Arabic and wish to help us launch such a section. :)

As the matter has been comprehensively addressed, this thread will be closed shortly. Thanks all!