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Williamson
05-09-2016, 05:47 PM
There is an STR at position hg19:chrY:23316016 that is known to split the various branches of R-P312. For convenience, I've named the STR mutation from 12 repeats of TTTA to 11 repeats as Z40481 and have added it to my "Big Tree", www.ytree.net. R-ZZ11 (parent of R-U152 and R-DF27), R-DF99 and R-ZZ37 are Z40481+. R-L238, R-DF19 and R-L21 are Z40481-. The status for the two newest and smallest branches is still unknown. The hg19 and hg38 reference sequences are Z40481+.

I found this STR earlier this year, but Richard Rocca wrote about it back in April of 2012 on the World Families forum:

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=9930.151

I'm not aware of any mention of it prior to that. At that time, DF27 was recently discovered and much work was going into figuring out the relationship of the known P312 children.

This is what Richard Rocca had to say:

"Based on repeat value of 'TATT' at Build 37 position ChrY:23316016, I think that DF27 and U152 might have more in common with each other. L21 and DF19 also seem closer to each other due to this repeat. There was no data at that location for L238, but I would bet it is the same as L21 and DF19."

We now know from various NGS tests that Richard was correct and that L238 is ancestral for Z40481. Richard was also correct in surmising the closer relationship between DF27 and U152. Neither DF99 nor ZZ37 was known at the time.

I understand that an STR is not an ideal candidate for a phylogenetic tree. However, there is a lot of expansion and a lot of branching around the time of P312. This reduces the opportunity for a subsequent mutation of the STR before additional branching has taken place.

The table below summarizes what I know about the status of Z40481 for the various branches of R-P312 that I have on my tree. What is given in the table is actually the status for each of the sub-branches, from which the status of the branch can be inferred. BigY files have coverage for the region of this STR about 1/3 of the time. 1000 genomes kits do a little a better and it is generally covered by FGC tests. It can be ordered from YSEQ.net (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=28353).


Branches/Sub-branches of R-P312Status

DF19

S233/Z302

DF88


Z40481-
Z40481-


L238

Z2247

Martin (410754)


Z40481-

?


L21

DF13

DF63

BY2899

A5846

A7900



Z40481-
Z40481-
Z40481-

?
?


ZZ11

U152


ZZ45


Z193


L2


Z43


22047046-C-T (hg19)


Y17059


U152* Sinclair (216196)

DF27


Z195


ZZ12




Z40481+
Z40481+
Z40481+
Z40481+

?
Z40481+

?

Z40481+
Z40481+



DF99

FGC846/Y2834

Y5049

BY3449



Z40481+
Z40481+

?



ZZ37

Z29644

L624

Z39300

Lee (306861)




?
Z40481+

?
?


A9063

McFarlane (51865)

Morrison (423789)



?
?


Y18209

Harbottle (278973)

Powell (8640)



?
?



P312* Keyes (104079)
?



Z40481 seems stable enough to be useful and too significant to be ignored.

Alex

R.Rocca
05-09-2016, 06:39 PM
There is an STR at position hg19:chrY:23316016 that is known to split the various branches of R-P312. For convenience, I've named the STR mutation from 12 repeats of TTTA to 11 repeats as Z40481 and have added it to my "Big Tree", www.ytree.net. R-ZZ11 (parent of R-U152 and R-DF27), R-DF99 and R-ZZ37 are Z40481+. R-L238, R-DF19 and R-L21 are Z40481-. The status for the two newest and smallest branches is still unknown. The hg19 and hg38 reference sequences are Z40481+.

I found this STR earlier this year, but Richard Rocca wrote about it back in April of 2012 on the World Families forum:

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=9930.151

I'm not aware of any mention of it prior to that. At that time, DF27 was recently discovered and much work was going into figuring out the relationship of the known P312 children.

This is what Richard Rocca had to say:

"Based on repeat value of 'TATT' at Build 37 position ChrY:23316016, I think that DF27 and U152 might have more in common with each other. L21 and DF19 also seem closer to each other due to this repeat. There was no data at that location for L238, but I would bet it is the same as L21 and DF19."

We now know from various NGS tests that Richard was correct and that L238 is ancestral for Z40481. Richard was also correct in surmising the closer relationship between DF27 and U152. Neither DF99 nor ZZ37 was known at the time.

I understand that an STR is not an ideal candidate for a phylogenetic tree. However, there is a lot of expansion and a lot of branching around the time of P312. This reduces the opportunity for a subsequent mutation of the STR before additional branching has taken place.

The table below summarizes what I know about the status of Z40481 for the various branches of R-P312 that I have on my tree. What is given in the table is actually the status for each of the sub-branches, from which the status of the branch can be inferred. BigY files have coverage for the region of this STR about 1/3 of the time. 1000 genomes kits do a little a better and it is generally covered by FGC tests. It can be ordered from YSEQ.net (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=28353).

Z40481 seems stable enough to be useful and too significant to be ignored.

Alex

Thanks for following up on this Alex. I never did have enough non-U152 data to follow up on it myself, but it looks like your dataset is paying off very well in many aspects.

Webb
05-11-2016, 01:40 AM
This is pretty exciting, so I am surprised by the lack of comments. I did not expect to see DF99 share anything upstream with DF27 and U152. I would have thought it more likely to share upstream markers with at least DF19 and L238. However, L21 does not surprise me too much.

GoldenHind
05-11-2016, 04:49 AM
This is pretty exciting, so I am surprised by the lack of comments. I did not expect to see DF99 share anything upstream with DF27 and U152. I would have thought it more likely to share upstream markers with at least DF19 and L238. However, L21 does not surprise me too much.

I would have suspected that DF99 would have clustered together with L238 and DF19, and L21 with DF27 and U152. I'm not entirely sure what to make of it.

MitchellSince1893
05-11-2016, 04:54 AM
This is pretty exciting, so I am surprised by the lack of comments. I did not expect to see DF99 share anything upstream with DF27 and U152. I would have thought it more likely to share upstream markers with at least DF19 and L238. However, L21 does not surprise me too much.

It would be very interesting if an ancient dna sample is found that is positive for Z40481 and/or ZZ11 but negative for all downstream SNPs. It's location and age would be huge in understanding the history of P312 migration and subsequent divisions.

Can we go back and see if the individuals at Kromsdorf (M269+ U106-, P312 not tested) and Quedlinburg (P312+), are positive for either of these?

castle3
05-11-2016, 08:59 AM
This is pretty exciting, so I am surprised by the lack of comments. I did not expect to see DF99 share anything upstream with DF27 and U152. I would have thought it more likely to share upstream markers with at least DF19 and L238. However, L21 does not surprise me too much.

I think the lack of comments may be due to people trying to analyse these results. I agree with your assessment re L21. When I looked at Alex's superb Big Y Tree the nationalities who are in the majority for L21 are fairly predictable. Some of the other groups contained fairly geographically diverse mixtures - Scandinavian,German, French, Spanish & Portuguese etc, etc. My interest is largely focused on the ancient tribes who settled in Britain, but I'm not quite sure what to make of this data.

rms2
05-11-2016, 10:57 AM
This is pretty exciting, so I am surprised by the lack of comments. I did not expect to see DF99 share anything upstream with DF27 and U152. I would have thought it more likely to share upstream markers with at least DF19 and L238. However, L21 does not surprise me too much.

I would have commented sooner, but I just did not see this thread. I've been pretty busy with work lately as we near exams at my school and have not had as much time for Anthrogenica as I would like. The weekend is better for me.

rms2
05-11-2016, 10:59 AM
I would have suspected that DF99 would have clustered together with L238 and DF19, and L21 with DF27 and U152. I'm not entirely sure what to make of it.

Yeah, I agree. Odd!

I need to think about this and hear what others have to say, but surely it says something about where Z40481 and xZ40481 started from relative to each other.

I really want to see some western Yamnaya results.

gotten
05-11-2016, 11:26 AM
For completeness I can report that FGC Y-Elite 2.0 kit X5ZNK below U152>22047046-C-T (aka FGC43778) has no insertion when looking at the raw data with IGV (so only 11 copies and therefore Z40481+). It has solid coverage of that region with at least 5 reads. Alex, you can check it with the .bam that I shared with you through the FGC website. Bam file for 388170 has been requested with FTDNA but isn't as relevant as the raw data of kit B3492 would be.

It is available for testing as an indel at YSEQ: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=28353&osCsid=27e832c96f33336412ff789dcbfc9a99.

rms2
05-11-2016, 11:30 AM
We know RISE563 was U152+ and so Z40481+. That puts Z40481+ in eastern Bell Beaker, but I don't see a date for RISE563. RISE563 came from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, down in the SE corner of Germany near the Danube and wedged in between the Czech Republic and Austria. Maybe that is an indicator of where the Z40481+ clades came from, but I am just thinking out loud and not trying to lay down doctrine.

Perhaps L21, DF19, and L238 will be found in Rhenish Bell Beaker (except that probably came up from east central Europe, as well). L238 is the real mystery. Looks like it or its P312* progenitor took off for Scandinavia at some early point and did so pretty much lock, stock, and barrel.

In other words, L238 probably originated in Scandinavia from a xZ40481 progenitor who went to Norway with the Beaker Folk who settled there.

R.Rocca
05-11-2016, 12:18 PM
Just thinking out loud here... perhaps Z40481+ represents the "Stelae Men". It is also interesting to note that the oldest Bell Beaker dates are found in the areas where Z40481+ and subclades are strongest, including Hungary > N.Italy > S. France and Iberia. Then we have Rhenish Bell Beaker and L21 looking younger (based on more SNPs at the L21 level). So, it could be that Z40481+ split off at the earliest Bell Beaker period and Z40481- lineages did not thrive until after ~2500 BC.

MitchellSince1893
05-11-2016, 02:59 PM
Just thinking out loud here... perhaps Z40481+ represents the "Stelae Men". It is also interesting to note that the oldest Bell Beaker dates are found in the areas where Z40481+ and subclades are strongest, including Hungary > N.Italy > S. France and Iberia. Then we have Rhenish Bell Beaker and L21 looking younger (based on more SNPs at the L21 level). So, it could be that Z40481+ split off at the earliest Bell Beaker period and Z40481- lineages did not thrive until after ~2500 BC.

Richard, are you able to go back and look at the pertinent Allentoft et al. 2015 samples to see if any were positive for Z40481?

A list of the R1bs from that study

RISE566 Czech Republic Bell Beaker R1b1a2a1a-P310/PF6546/S129
RISE560 Germany Bell Beaker R1b1a2a1a2-M12124(xM12050)
RISE563 Germany Bell Beaker R1b1a2a1a2b-PF6570/S28/U152
RISE564 Germany Bell Beaker R1b1a2a1-L51/M412/PF6536/S167
RISE555 Russia EBA R1b1a2a2-CTS7340/Z2107
RISE397 Armenia LBA R1b1a2a2-Y4371/Z8128
RISE413 Armenia MBA R1b1a2
RISE524 Russia Meshovskaya R1b1a2-PF6494
RISE21 Denmark Nordic BA ?
RISE47 Denmark Nordic BA R1b1a2-PF6410/M520(xM12002,P312)
RISE276 Denmark Nordic LBA R1b1a2a1a-CTS7650/PF6544/S1164
RISE98 Sweden Nordic LN R1b1a2a1a1-M405/S21/U106*
RISE546 Russia Pit Grave R1b1a2-PF6532/CTS12972
RISE547 Russia Pit Grave R1b1a2a2-CTS9416
RISE548 Russia Pit Grave R1b1a2a2-Z2105
RISE550 Russia Pit Grave R1b1a2a2-Z8129/M12145/Y12537

lgmayka
05-11-2016, 03:40 PM
In other words, L238 probably originated in Scandinavia from a xZ40481 progenitor who went to Norway with the Beaker Folk who settled there.
The earliest offshoot of L238 is Polish. Kit 109663 has tested
L238+ Z2246+ Z2245- Z2247- Z2248-

R.Rocca
05-11-2016, 06:03 PM
Richard, are you able to go back and look at the pertinent Allentoft et al. 2015 samples to see if any were positive for Z40481?

A list of the R1bs from that study

Z40481 produces very few reads in high coverage modern samples, so I doubt anything will be available in the ancient DNA samples, but I will check the L51+ samples anyway.

rms2
05-12-2016, 12:03 AM
The earliest offshoot of L238 is Polish. Kit 109663 has tested
L238+ Z2246+ Z2245- Z2247- Z2248-

That adds another twist. I wonder what Poland might eventually reveal about L21 and DF19? Maybe nothing, but who knows?

miiser
05-12-2016, 12:54 AM
No one should be surprised by this.

The more closely related haplogroups share similar distribution patterns of their core populations, with L21 and DF19 concentrated more northward in Germany and U152 and DF27 concentrated more southward in Spain and France, with U152 and DF27 having an especially obvious border like line roughly following the Rhine, running from Belgium down along the southwest edge of Germany into Italy. Interestingly, this border is roughly the southern limit of DF19's distribution.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9242&d=1453847031

rms2
05-12-2016, 11:36 AM
Except that DF99 has a distribution very similar to that of DF19 and radically different, thus far, from that of DF27. I really am not trying to be critical, but those pushpin maps are not nearly as helpful as heat maps.

Still, what you wrote makes sense.

Webb
05-12-2016, 01:05 PM
If we knew that DF19, L21, and L238 shared an upstream marker just below P312, then there could be a few theories. Maybe these three made it up to the Rhine Delta, then using the North Sea as a means for travel. It would support some of the thoughts that L21 entered Britain from the North. DF19 stayed along the Belgium/Netherlands coast. L238 heading across the North Sea to Scandinavia. Maybe L238 split early and traveled to the North via the Eastern Side of Germany coming to the Rhine Delta from the East, similar to the idea that U106 followed this path as well. Maybe the headwaters of the Rhine/Danube is the key. Maybe here U152 and DF27 headed south and west while DF99 stayed pretty close to the headwaters. L21, DF19, and L238 followed the Rhine to the Delta. Just some thoughts. I have even wondered about a Rhine Delta reflux. Meaning everyone made it to the Rhine Delta and several of P312's clades refluxed back south and west.

ADW_1981
05-12-2016, 01:52 PM
I think we need more Copper age aDNA from Spain/Portugal to settle the debate on P312's origins. Looking at the research Maciamo posted on Eupedia from the Catalan surname research, it's difficult to say. I'm just pasting the R1b section. The largest undifferentiated group is P312* (DF27?), but the largest represented group as a whole are subclades under Z196. What might have initially started as just a few metalworkers along the borders of France/Germany exploded in Iberia once settlements became fortified and allowed for population growth. More research is definitely needed.

However, there does seem to be a reflux of some P312+ branches NE into Europe maybe during the Bronze Age, as some subclades of Z220+ who are Z295- appear to be predominantly north European.

- R1b-M343 (incl. V88) : 22 (= 1%)
-- R1b-L23 : 1
--- R1b-U106 : 51 (U106+Z381 = 4.8%)
---- R1b-Z381 : 59
--- R1b-P312 : 371
---- R1b-L21 : 140 (= 6.1%)
---- R1b-U152 : 199 (= 8.7%)
---- R1b-Z195 : 132 (Z195+subclades = 28.2%)
----- R1b-SRY2627 : 222
----- R1b-Z220 : 199
------ R1b-Z278 : 74
------- R1b-M153 : 21

rms2
05-12-2016, 03:32 PM
It seems to me things like islands (e.g., the British Isles and Ireland) and peninsulas (peninsula="dangling island") are bag ends: things get collected in them and pool up, having no place farther to go, at least until seafaring technology makes further expansion possible.

This can be deceptive or confusing. The natural tendency is to see so much DF27 in Iberia, for example, and think, "Wow! Look at all that DF27! It must have originated there!" But that is not the case at all. DF27 merely expanded into the bag end of Europe, had no place farther west to go, and began to pool up and increase in frequency.

The same confusion occurs in the case of L21 and the Isles.

MitchellSince1893
05-12-2016, 03:34 PM
I think we need more Copper age aDNA from Spain/Portugal to settle the debate on P312's origins. Looking at the research Maciamo posted on Eupedia from the Catalan surname research, it's difficult to say. I'm just pasting the R1b section. The largest undifferentiated group is P312* (DF27?), but the largest represented group as a whole are subclades under Z196. What might have initially started as just a few metalworkers along the borders of France/Germany exploded in Iberia once settlements became fortified and allowed for population growth. More research is definitely needed.

However, there does seem to be a reflux of some P312+ branches NE into Europe maybe during the Bronze Age, as some subclades of Z220+ who are Z295- appear to be predominantly north European.

- R1b-M343 (incl. V88) : 22 (= 1%)
-- R1b-L23 : 1
--- R1b-U106 : 51 (U106+Z381 = 4.8%)
---- R1b-Z381 : 59
--- R1b-P312 : 371
---- R1b-L21 : 140 (= 6.1%)
---- R1b-U152 : 199 (= 8.7%)
---- R1b-Z195 : 132 (Z195+subclades = 28.2%)
----- R1b-SRY2627 : 222
----- R1b-Z220 : 199
------ R1b-Z278 : 74
------- R1b-M153 : 21

Here's a link to this info. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ahg.12066/suppinfo

Just click on the link ahg12066-sup-0001-SupMat.docx

GoldenHind
05-13-2016, 03:31 PM
We know RISE563 was U152+ and so Z40481+. That puts Z40481+ in eastern Bell Beaker, but I don't see a date for RISE563. RISE563 came from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, down in the SE corner of Germany near the Danube and wedged in between the Czech Republic and Austria. Maybe that is an indicator of where the Z40481+ clades came from, but I am just thinking out loud and not trying to lay down doctrine.

Perhaps L21, DF19, and L238 will be found in Rhenish Bell Beaker (except that probably came up from east central Europe, as well). L238 is the real mystery. Looks like it or its P312* progenitor took off for Scandinavia at some early point and did so pretty much lock, stock, and barrel.

In other words, L238 probably originated in Scandinavia from a xZ40481 progenitor who went to Norway with the Beaker Folk who settled there.

Actually the person closest to being L238* is from Poland. The Scandinavian branch of L238 appears to be a younger expansion.

Webb
05-13-2016, 05:00 PM
Actually the person closest to being L238* is from Poland. The Scandinavian branch of L238 appears to be a younger expansion.

This makes me wonder if L238 made it to Scandinavia with U106 perhaps. Or at least through Eastern Germany to the North Sea following a similar route but different time frame.

razyn
05-13-2016, 05:47 PM
Z40481 produces very few reads in high coverage modern samples, so I doubt anything will be available in the ancient DNA samples, but I will check the L51+ samples anyway.
If you can check RISE560 and 563, that might resolve the little difference of opinion I was having last summer with JeanM, about whether Underhill knew how to draw a chart or I knew how to read one. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4723-Dissection-of-the-Y-SNP-S116-in-Atlantic-Europe-and-Iberia-Valverde-et-al-2015&p=91220&viewfull=1#post91220

Anyway, I agree that this thread is important, and I didn't see it either (until rms2 linked it, on a thread that was actually about DF27). We've had company since 5/8 and I've only hit the high spots in the forum "new posts," this week. ("Something Something R-P312" isn't usually a DF27 high spot; I had therefore overlooked it.)

In addition to the evidence already mentioned here, I believe there's a tendency in the much-maligned "Shared Novel Variants" (that FTDNA calls for BigY customers) for some of the highly recurrent and therefore "phylogenetically useless" SNPs to recur (for DF27 guys) in U152 and DF99 -- giving our guy a bunch of "false" matches in those haplogroups, that he doesn't have with DF21 or U106 guys. The match may actually have been ancient, but has by now toggled off in many DF27 subclades; and it had never occurred in L21 etc. in the first place. Just a thought, I haven't compiled any data to prove it. It's an impression I've gotten from looking at all the DF27 project members' shared novel variants, a fairly boring exercise than can on occasion reward the time spent.

Heber
05-13-2016, 06:01 PM
Tolan has updated his ZZ11 Map (combined DF27 and U152) and it shows a definite Franco-Iberian distribution.

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/R1bsousgroupes.htm

9281

It would appear that P312 expanded on the Atlantic Zone

9282

DF27 from the Franco - Cantabrian Zone

9284

U152 further east from the Alpine Zone

L21 from the Isles

9283

MitchellSince1893
05-13-2016, 06:15 PM
Tolan has updated his ZZ11 Map (combined DF27 and U152) and it shows a definite Franco-Iberian distribution.

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/R1bsousgroupes.htm

9281

It would appear that P312 expanded on the Atlantic Zone

9282

DF21 from the Franco - Cantabrian Zone

9284

U152 further east from the Alpine Zone

L21 from the Isles

9283

I for one take great umbridge that you left out the U152 and U106 maps :D

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/U152T.png

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/U106T.png

PS you may want to edit your post as you labelled DF27 as DF21

MitchellSince1893
05-13-2016, 06:53 PM
When you look at the P312, U106, maps it's not readily apparent where they came from...their route before they went their separate ways.

But when you look at P312 and U106's brother clade/traveling companion DF100/CTS4528, it appears clearer...to me at least.

My thoughts superimposed on a DF100/CTS4528 map...obviously based on previous work of others involved in the steppe theory e.g. Hammer.

9287

And yes I intentionally placed the "L21" label in the English Channel to avoid the Continental vs Isles origin debate. :)

Heber
05-13-2016, 06:58 PM
I for one take great umbridge that you left out the U152 and U106 maps :D



Thanks.

As this bbs appears to have a limit of 4 attached images (?), I have to prioritise.:)

Webb
05-13-2016, 07:27 PM
When you look at the P312, U106, maps it's not readily apparent where they came from...their route before they went their separate ways.

But when you look at P312 and U106's brother clade/traveling companion DF100/CTS4528, it appears clearer...to me at least.

My thoughts superimposed on a DF100/CTS4528 map...obviously based on previous work of others involved in the steppe theory e.g. Hammer.

9287

And yes I intentionally placed the "L21" label in the English Channel to avoid the Continental vs Isles origin debate. :)

This is a very nice map.

rms2
05-14-2016, 12:39 PM
When you look at the P312, U106, maps it's not readily apparent where they came from...their route before they went their separate ways.

But when you look at P312 and U106's brother clade/traveling companion DF100/CTS4528, it appears clearer...to me at least.

My thoughts superimposed on a DF100/CTS4528 map...obviously based on previous work of others involved in the steppe theory e.g. Hammer.

9287

And yes I intentionally placed the "L21" label in the English Channel to avoid the Continental vs Isles origin debate. :)

I think the splits probably occurred farther east. The DF100 dots are shifted west somewhat because of the western bias in the database. Of course, only ancient y-dna will settle all this, but those results come only slowly, and there does not seem to be much effort being expended to tell the L51 story.

rms2
05-14-2016, 12:43 PM
Tolan has updated his ZZ11 Map (combined DF27 and U152) and it shows a definite Franco-Iberian distribution.

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/R1bsousgroupes.htm

9281

It would appear that P312 expanded on the Atlantic Zone

9282

DF27 from the Franco - Cantabrian Zone

9284

U152 further east from the Alpine Zone

L21 from the Isles

9283

You should be more careful with the preposition from. It isn't likely any of the SNPs you named are actually from the places you said they are.

MitchellSince1893
05-14-2016, 03:48 PM
I think the splits probably occurred farther east. The DF100 dots are shifted west somewhat because of the western bias in the database. Of course, only ancient y-dna will settle all this, but those results come only slowly, and there does not seem to be much effort being expended to tell the L51 story.

IYO, why does U106 have it's highest concentration in the Netherlands?

Is it a recent (in the last 2000 years) movement of Germanics from the East e.g. primarily Franks?

Or did U106 arrive there circa 4500 to 5000 ypb and grow, before further expanding back into eastern Germany and Scandinavia?

If the former then why is U106 percentages so much lower to the East?

And for the whole community: Am I missing something obvious as to why U106 couldn't have been in the Netherlands early on and expanded east and Northeast from there? Is soley because of the spread of Germanics languages from the east?

rms2
05-14-2016, 04:08 PM
IYO, why does U106 have it's highest concentration in the Netherlands?

Is it a recent (in the last 2000 years) movement of Germanics from the East e.g. primarily Franks?

Or did U106 arrive there circa 4500 to 5000 ypb and grow, before further expanding back into eastern Germany and Scandinavia?

If the former then why is U106 percentages so much lower to the East?

And for the whole community: Am I missing something obvious as to why U106 couldn't have been in the Netherlands early on and expanded east and Northeast from there? Is soley because of the spread of Germanics languages from the east?

IMHO, U106 is most frequent in Friesland because of the expansion of the Germans beginning in about 700 BC. It took them until about 200 BC to push the Celts across the Rhine. I could be wrong, but if U106 were in the Netherlands as early as the Bronze Age, it should not fade so fast as one moves west, and it should show up in German and British Bell Beaker. I think it was farther east and north until Germanic speakers began to expand. That is why the oldest U106 find thus far (c. 2300 BC) comes from the Nordic Battle Axe cemetery of Lilla Beddinge in Sweden and not from German Bell Beaker.

Heber
05-17-2016, 10:26 PM
Tolan has updated his ZZ11 Map (combined DF27 and U152) and it shows a definite Franco-Iberian distribution.

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/R1bsousgroupes.htm

9281

It would appear that P312 expanded on the Atlantic Zone

9282

DF27 from the Franco - Cantabrian Zone

9284

U152 further east from the Alpine Zone

L21 from the Isles

9283

I have taken Tolans maps and developed a straw man of DF21 and defining mutations back to M269.

DF21 > L21 > P312 > L11 > L51 > L23 > M269

9367

The nodes correspond to the highest frequencies of the defining SNP but more importantly to the expansion of branches of the phylogenetic tree as determined by Hallast, Valverde, Tyler Smith, Busby etc.

It also also supported by the latest research in
Language
http://pin.it/iwL9Aew

Genetics
http://pin.it/fgoCOW7
http://pin.it/YTbUSe5

Archealogy
http://pin.it/SOCxPxF

And it is compatible with Dr Joe Floods paper on L21.

It appears that the overwhelming majority of P312 samples are found in Atlantic facing countries and relatively few east of the Rhine. This is an important metric but not determinant. Project data has its Isles bias.

However examination of the phylogeny of L11 and P312 showed that the overwhelming majority of branches expanded also in Atlantic facing countries. These studies used broad sampling of data from reference datasets.

A deep dive analysis of L21and its branching by Dr Flood has provided compelling support for an origin and expansion of L21 in the Isles.

The fine scale autosomal analysis from Ireland, Britain, France, Iberia also points to a Western Seaboard or Atlantic component

To date there has been very little sampling of ancient DNA in Atlatic Europe. The few samples published to date eg Cassidy confirm the early arrival of P312 > L21 and DF21 on the Atlantic Zone.

As further ancient DNA is tested and published I would expect the trend to continue.

We may never determine where a specific mutation originated given the mobility of Bronze Age people and the Bell Beakers in particular, but we are getting a clearer picture of where they expanded and settled.

TigerMW
07-05-2016, 08:53 PM
Tolan has updated his ZZ11 Map (combined DF27 and U152) and it shows a definite Franco-Iberian distribution.

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/R1bsousgroupes.htm

9281

It would appear that P312 expanded on the Atlantic Zone

9282

DF27 from the Franco - Cantabrian Zone

9284

U152 further east from the Alpine Zone

L21 from the Isles

9283

In terms of origins, please consider the water balloon.

When it splats on the ground the places where the largest pools may remain are not necessarily the point of the where the balloon hits the ground. In fact, since there is more area around it and depending on the explosiveness of the water splashes, the it is probably more likely the best pooling is NOT at the point of contact.

Another consideration is from what direction the water balloon. The areas on the opposite side of the source/launch direction would probably have more pooling.

This kind of what the Wave of Advance Theory is about in genetics. Fast growing population typically have new and ulitimately high frequency alleles on the wave edges.

If you go back to the table Alex posted, what does this say about L21, DF19 and L238 in contrast to the Z40481+ folks?

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7150-Z40481-Splits-R-P312&p=156214&viewfull=1#post156214

MitchellSince1893
03-23-2017, 02:55 AM
Just thinking out loud here... perhaps Z40481+ represents the "Stelae Men". It is also interesting to note that the oldest Bell Beaker dates are found in the areas where Z40481+ and subclades are strongest, including Hungary > N.Italy > S. France and Iberia. Then we have Rhenish Bell Beaker and L21 looking younger (based on more SNPs at the L21 level). So, it could be that Z40481+ split off at the earliest Bell Beaker period and Z40481- lineages did not thrive until after ~2500 BC.

Sorry to dig up this old thread but I've been going through Jean Manco's Ancestral Journeys chapter 10, "Beaker Folks to Celts and Italics".

As I read her comments on the the "Stelae People", a thought came to mind, and I remembered this thread. After reading Richard Rocca's post, I realized I wasn't the first to have this thought...I'd forgotten Richard had posted the same thought months ago.

Maybe P312 was in/near the Balkans traveling up the Danube when Z40481+ was born. Z40481+ possibly taking the route representing the Stelae People, while Z40481- hgs taking a more Northerly route; eventually going down the Rhine and across to Britain. At some point along this route L21 would have been born (either before or after crossing the English Channel...let's not reopen that can of worms).

The arrow going from Iberia to Brittany, most likely with lots of DF27, makes sense to me, as I found in my study of Y-dna haplogroups in England, that DF27 tends to be in higher concentrations along the southern part of England near the English Channel...almost as if L21 beat them there (L21 taking a more direct route to Britain could explain why), limiting DF27's ability to be widespread throughout Britain.

This edited map of the "Stelae People" illustrates the idea proposed by Richard with the additions of some relevant y-dna SNP labels.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/1f/54/9d/1f549d2da16e62c0ba52670014fe4535.png

razyn
03-23-2017, 03:48 AM
I think there is still way too much emphasis on the Danube/Rhine, and not enough on any waterways (or watersheds, or the ridges between them) farther to the east (Elbe, Vistula, Neva, Volga, Dnieper, Don, etc.).

And the placement of the DF27 symbol on this map is an artifact, from having lightly SNP-tested modern populations long before sequencing ancient DNA might tell us where bearers of these major R1b SNPs actually came from, or first appeared. In the case of DF27, like many others, that's not where.

Otherwise, it's kind of thought provoking.

MitchellSince1893
03-23-2017, 04:20 AM
I think there is still way too much emphasis on the Danube/Rhine, and not enough on any waterways (or watersheds, or the ridges between them) farther to the east (Elbe, Vistula, Neva, Volga, Dnieper, Don, etc.).

And the placement of the DF27 symbol on this map is an artifact, from having lightly SNP-tested modern populations long before sequencing ancient DNA might tell us where bearers of these major R1b SNPs actually came from, or first appeared. In the case of DF27, like many others, that's not where.

Otherwise, it's kind of thought provoking.

U152 and DF27 SNP labels just represent possible locations based on the Stelae map and known present day hg concentrations. They aren't meant to imply origination but where they may have traveled. Both could have originated further east in South-Central Europe, or other locations. They're just placeholders until something more concrete is known.

Currently the 3 oldest known U152 samples are in Germany (Quedlinburg 4500-4160 ybp, Osterhofen 4600-3800 ybp, Untermeitingen 3625-3465 ybp); and because of this I've held the belief that U152 was north of the Alps before it entered Italy; but one can't rule out the possibility that their U152 ancestors were in the Po Valley before going north across the Alps into Germany.

Hopefully there will be additional ancient U152 and DF27 samples in the upcoming Bell Beaker paper.

R.Rocca
03-23-2017, 03:06 PM
U152 and DF27 SNP labels just represent possible locations based on the Stelae map and known present day hg concentrations. They aren't meant to imply origination but where they may have traveled. Both could have originated further east in South-Central Europe, or other locations. They're just placeholders until something more concrete is known.

Currently the 3 oldest known U152 samples are in Germany (Quedlinburg 4500-4160 ybp, Osterhofen 4600-3800 ybp, Untermeitingen 3625-3465 ybp); and because of this I've held the belief that U152 was north of the Alps before it entered Italy; but one can't rule out the possibility that their U152 ancestors were in the Po Valley before going north across the Alps into Germany.

Hopefully there will be additional ancient U152 and DF27 samples in the upcoming Bell Beaker paper.

I once offered this alternative to the stelae people being R1b:

"The Crimean Kemi Oba Culture has long been suspected as being a predecessor of L23 that lead to L51. They were the ones that likely created anthropomorphic stelae that so closely resemble the one found in Western Europe. However, it is likelier that they fused with Yamnaya (thus the observed reuse of Kemi Oba stelae in Yamnaya graves) and then made their way into the Balkans in the form of full Yamnaya. The other option is that Kemi Oba were I2a and got pushed west by Yamnaya R1b and crossed into the Alps (thus Remedello).

See here:http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3474-Bell-Beakers-Gimbutas-and-R1b&p=180350&viewfull=1#post180350

The fact that Bell Beaker dated skeletons from both northern Iberia and Italy have now been shown to lack Yamnaya components and belonged to haplogroup I2a, I think the scale is starting to tip towards the stelae people not being R1b+. Also interesting is that there is one Yamnaya Kurgan skeleton (RISE552, dated 2849-2146 BC) that is I2a2+.

See here:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3474-Bell-Beakers-Gimbutas-and-R1b&p=220985&viewfull=1#post220985

To further complicate matters, there is the case of R1b in Blatterhole Cave, Germay in the middle neolithic. So, there is still the possibility that there was a mix of stelae people, with percentages of R1b versus I2a changing with latitude. As Austin Powers once said... "Oh, no, I've gone cross-eyed." :wacko:

razyn
03-23-2017, 04:42 PM
Currently the 3 oldest known U152 samples are in Germany (Quedlinburg 4500-4160 ybp...)
Currently the 1 oldest known DF27 sample is also from Quedlinburg. And that's on a tributary of the Elbe, the valley of which lies entirely to the northeast of the line you have drawn for a suggested Z40481- migration route. If one must draw some line to get L21 to Rathlin Island on time, I suppose that's as good a place as any. But if these several folk were following river valleys (or were in boats), rivers don't cross each other. It's all going to get more complicated, not less.

Anyway, both DF27 and U152 are ZZ11+. All three may have formed north of the Alps somewhere; but that unproven hypothesis does not exclude places that are not on the Danube route, through the Iron Gates, and from the (western) Black Sea.


Hopefully there will be additional ancient U152 and DF27 samples in the upcoming Bell Beaker paper.
I share that hope.

Dewsloth
03-23-2017, 05:00 PM
http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/U106T.png

Has anyone seen a heatmap like this for DF19? I am guessing it would look somewhat similar to the U106; but it would be nice to actually see one.

MitchellSince1893
03-26-2017, 06:51 PM
Currently the 1 oldest known DF27 sample is also from Quedlinburg. And that's on a tributary of the Elbe...
If the Elbe River basin continued to be/became an area with substantial DF27 for a couple of thousand years, then the Saxon arrivals from this area during the 400-600 AD time frame might have been a source for DF27 in southern England.

Quedlinburg in red rectangle within Old Saxony
14710

https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2015-06/8/5/enhanced/webdr04/enhanced-7787-1433757102-1.png?no-auto

Webb
03-27-2017, 04:01 PM
If the Elbe River basin continued to be/became an area with substantial DF27 for a couple of thousand years, then the Saxon arrivals from this area during the 400-600 AD time frame might have been a source for DF27 in southern England.

Quedlinburg in red rectangle within Old Saxony
14710

https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2015-06/8/5/enhanced/webdr04/enhanced-7787-1433757102-1.png?no-auto

I was just getting used to the idea of being Iberian and now you throw this into this into the mix?!?!?!?!?!?!