PDA

View Full Version : Most likely source of haplogroup R1a1a in Sicily?? Greek? Slavic? Other?



Sikeliot
05-12-2016, 04:22 PM
Haplogroup R1a is rare in all of Sicily, but its frequency is maximized in Ragusa, in the east of the island. When averaging out their samples, it is roughly 5% in both parts of the island, east and west.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/

To me, the only conclusion could be that it comes from a Greek ancestor. My paternal line goes back to Messina, where there was little if any direct influence from Northern or Eastern Europe. The Crusades had little impact and moreover, Norman haplogroups in the west of the island that increase slightly are I1 and North European R1b1b subclades. There is no increase of R1a in the west of the island, thus it is likely not from them.

But not everyone agrees. What do people think?

Michał
05-12-2016, 07:15 PM
Haplogroup R1a is rare in all of Sicily, but its frequency is maximized in Ragusa, in the east of the island.
Actually, the difference between the frequencies of R1a in Ragusa in Eastern Sardinia [EDIT:Eastern Sicily] (3/28) and in Santa Ninfa in Western Sardinia [EDIT: Western Sicily] (3/31) is not statistically significant.



When averaging out their samples, it is roughly 5% in both parts of the island, east and west.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/

To me, the only conclusion could be that it comes from a Greek ancestor.
This seems rather unlikely when knowing which particular subclades of R1a were identified in the very large group of 1200 Sardinians investigated by Francalacci et al. (2013).
Here are some details from my old post on Eupedia:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28934-Sardinian-Y-DNA-Phylogeny-per-Francalacci-et-al-2013?p=413575&viewfull=1#post413575
and some important updates from the most recent discussion held here on Anthrogenica:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6522-Early-Medieval-aDNA-from-Poland-coming-soon&p=145102&viewfull=1#post145102
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6522-Early-Medieval-aDNA-from-Poland-coming-soon&p=145137&viewfull=1#post145137

As for the specific Sardinian subclade under Z2123 that might have indeed come from the East, it does not fit any of the multiple Z2123 subclades known to us.



My paternal line goes back to Messina, where there was little if any direct influence from Northern or Eastern Europe.
Do you know which specific subclade (or major branch) under R1a1a you belong to?

Tomenable
05-12-2016, 07:44 PM
Probably Greek, in my opinion.

leonardo
05-12-2016, 07:54 PM
Knowing the subclades could resolve the question. Still, generally speaking, can we consider Norman Viking ancestors?

Volat
05-12-2016, 08:25 PM
Vandals and Ostrogoths roamed around Europe settling in Sicily and marrying Sicilian women. Your R1a1 could be the remanants of those people.


Sicilian Peoples: The Vandals and Goths
by L. Mendola and V. Salerno

They cannot be said to have influenced Sicily to the extent of the Greeks or Romans, but the Vandals and Goths (specifically the Ostrogoths) controlled the island for a brief interlude which ushered in the Middle Ages. Most historians date the Middle Ages from the fall of the Western Roman Empire, circa AD (CE) 476, until the fall of Constantinople (Byzantium) in 1453 or, more generally, from AD 500 until 1500. Little visible evidence of the Vandals or Goths remains, but they may have intermarried with Sicilians to some extent. In Sicily their legacy is essentially a question of a purely historical record of an important transitional period.
http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art162.htm

Gravetto-Danubian
05-12-2016, 10:42 PM
Yes, any chance you could test further ?

Gravetto-Danubian
05-13-2016, 12:48 AM
Based on Michals analysis; then for most of Sicilian R1a we don't have to imagine about Vandals, but simply Sclavene mercenaries from across the sea

Sikeliot
05-13-2016, 05:56 AM
Actually, the difference between the frequencies of R1a in Ragusa in Eastern Sardinia (3/28) and in Santa Ninfa in Western Sardinia (3/31) is not statistically significant.


None of these places are in Sardinia..

vettor
05-13-2016, 06:07 AM
Haplogroup R1a is rare in all of Sicily, but its frequency is maximized in Ragusa, in the east of the island. When averaging out their samples, it is roughly 5% in both parts of the island, east and west.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/

To me, the only conclusion could be that it comes from a Greek ancestor. My paternal line goes back to Messina, where there was little if any direct influence from Northern or Eastern Europe. The Crusades had little impact and moreover, Norman haplogroups in the west of the island that increase slightly are I1 and North European R1b1b subclades. There is no increase of R1a in the west of the island, thus it is likely not from them.

But not everyone agrees. What do people think?
Maybe ragusa Sicily named After
they came from the republic of Ragusa ..............renamed Dubrovnic in 1911
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ragusa
There must have been some R1a1 in the republic

Michał
05-13-2016, 09:00 AM
None of these places are in Sardinia..
Thank you for noticing this. :)

One more comment I would like to add is that we don't know yet any R1a subclade that would be specific for Greece, while most of the FTDNA customers of Greek/Cypriot ancestry seem to belong to typically Slavic subclades. More specifically, a group of 14 Greeks/Cypriots from the R1a project includes 5 men from the "Slavic" branch M458 (and all 5 of them are either confirmed or predicted L1029+), 3 from the "Balto-Slavic" branch Z280 (mostly Slavic subclades: Y2613, YP569 and YP335), 3 from the "Asian" branch Z93 (including one case of Z93* and one member of the Ashkenazi cluster Y2632-A under Z2123), 1 from the Scandinavian branch Z284 (Z287>CTS8401, in this case this is just a prediction that is based on 37 STRs only, so it cannot be considered secure) and 2 with no prediction nor any SNP results (with 12 STRs only).

It seems possible that one day we will identify a Mediterranean subclade of Z93 that might be associated with deep Greek (Mycenaean?) ancestry, but so far we don't have any data supporting this hypothesis (and even in case such a Greek subclade of Z93 is identified, its frequency in Greece will be much lower then the frequency of the much more recently arrived Slavic R1a subclades).

Morges
05-13-2016, 04:31 PM
You have posted a very old study, Boattini, Brisighelli, Tofanelli and Sarno et al are much more recents and take different conclusions of Y distribution. You should buy FTDNA big-Y or test on NextGeno.
By the way, this is the R1a distribution in Sicily in the last papers.

Boattini 2014 5.7%
Brisighelli 2013 5.3%
Sarno et al 2015 4.63% (2.94% TP, 2.22% AG, 2.5% EN, 8.89% RG/SR, 5.77% CT)
Tofanelli et al end of 2015 East Sicily (Siracusa, Lentini, Buccheri, Augusta and Santa Croce Camerina) 3.25%, West Sicily (Caccamo, Castellammare del Golfo, Trapani) 1.4%

Morges
05-13-2016, 04:34 PM
Maybe ragusa Sicily named After
they came from the republic of Ragusa ..............renamed Dubrovnic in 1911
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ragusa
There must have been some R1a1 in the republic

The toponym of Ragusa of Sicily derives from the Byzantine word Ragous, has no contact with Ragusa of Dalmazia ;)
R1a in Ragusa and Siracusa could be derived from Slavs in Eastern Roman Empire however.
http://www.europaorientalis.it/uploads/files/1983/1983.1.pdf (italian source)

Tomenable
05-13-2016, 04:39 PM
5 men from the "Slavic" branch M458

Well this M458 branch is in fact "West Slavic", not "Slavic"...

West, East and South Slavs genetically differ from each other.

Morges
05-13-2016, 04:42 PM
Sikeliot do you know your subclade?

Morges
05-13-2016, 04:50 PM
Thank you for noticing this. :)

One more comment I would like to add is that we don't know yet any R1a subclade that would be specific for Greece, while most of the FTDNA customers of Greek/Cypriot ancestry seem to belong to typically Slavic subclades. More specifically, a group of 14 Greeks/Cypriots from the R1a project includes 5 men from the "Slavic" branch M458 (and all 5 of them are either confirmed or predicted L1029+), 3 from the "Balto-Slavic" branch Z280 (mostly Slavic subclades: Y2613, YP569 and YP335), 3 from the "Asian" branch Z93 (including one case of Z93* and one member of the Ashkenazi cluster Y2632-A under Z2123), 1 from the Scandinavian branch Z284 (Z287>CTS8401, in this case this is just a prediction that is based on 37 STRs only, so it cannot be considered secure) and 2 with no prediction nor any SNP results (with 12 STRs only).

It seems possible that one day we will identify a Mediterranean subclade of Z93 that might be associated with deep Greek (Mycenaean?) ancestry, but so far we don't have any data supporting this hypothesis (and even in case such a Greek subclade of Z93 is identified, its frequency in Greece will be much lower then the frequency of the much more recently arrived Slavic R1a subclades).

Indeed, that's quite interesting, anyway R1a has low frequencies in Italy except Friuli who had significant Slavic settlements.
http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml

I think most of R1a in Italy entered after the fall of Rome via-Vandals, Visigoths, Ostrogoths mostly, the first and the last group have lived a long time in eastern Europe. It's only a theory because I'd like to know the correct subclade of Sikeliot.
9280

Sikeliot
05-13-2016, 05:04 PM
Sikeliot do you know your subclade?

No.

I am thinking instead of ancient Greek, it might be Byzantine Greek, like a Hellenized Slav.

Sikeliot
05-13-2016, 05:06 PM
You have posted a very old study, Boattini, Brisighelli, Tofanelli and Sarno et al are much more recents and take different conclusions of Y distribution. You should buy FTDNA big-Y or test on NextGeno.
By the way, this is the R1a distribution in Sicily in the last papers.


This distribution implies it is definitely NOT Norman.

Morges
05-13-2016, 05:09 PM
No.

I am thinking instead of ancient Greek, it might be Byzantine Greek, like a Hellenized Slav.

Without subclade are only hypothesis, try with NextGeno, it's usually quite deep about Y-Chromosome subclade.

Morges
05-13-2016, 05:12 PM
This distribution implies it is definitely NOT Norman.

Imo Normans carried other Y-DNA before than R1a, my hypotesis is above, but we need to know the right subclade.

Coldmountains
05-13-2016, 07:10 PM
This distribution implies it is definitely NOT Norman.

I would not interpret too much in varying frequencies. 1% or 5% is not making such a big difference here. I agree with the rest here most R1a in Italy is likely derived from Slavs and arrived just in the last 1000 years. Norman R1a is probably rare in Italy and in Normandy for example there is also almost no R1a most Normans were R1b and I1 i guess. Some R1a in Italy is Z93 what is the Asian branch of R1a and it likely arrived in Italy with Sarmatian/Scythian mercenaries but it is quite rare.

Sikeliot
05-14-2016, 05:59 AM
I would not interpret too much in varying frequencies. 1% or 5% is not making such a big difference here. I agree with the rest here most R1a in Italy is likely derived from Slavs and arrived just in the last 1000 years. Norman R1a is probably rare in Italy and in Normandy for example there is also almost no R1a most Normans were R1b and I1 i guess. Some R1a in Italy is Z93 what is the Asian branch of R1a and it likely arrived in Italy with Sarmatian/Scythian mercenaries but it is quite rare.

Yes. Sicilian I1 is definitely Norman as it matches the subclades in France. Sicily has all types of R1b, from the West European to the Anatolian.

My guess is all of Sicily has some degree of post-Slavic Greek ancestry from the mainland, but not enough to make Sicilians plot with mainland Greeks.

Michał
05-14-2016, 07:59 PM
Well this M458 branch is in fact "West Slavic", not "Slavic"...
This is not correct. You seem to confuse the "Slavic" branch M458 with its so-called "West-Slavic" subclade L260. As I have mentioned in my post, all five M458 Greeks/Cypriots from the R1a project are either confirmed or predicted members of subclade L1029, and this particular subclade seems to be actually slightly more frequent among the East Slavs than among the West Slavs, with the total number of East Slavic L1029 by far exceeding the corresponding number for West Slavs. I wouldn't call L1029 an "East Slavic" subclade though, despite the fact that the ratio of East Slavs to West Slavs among all L1029 men seems to be higher than the ratio of West Slavs to East Slavs among all L260 males.

BTW, all this clearly suggests that in case the Mediterranean R1a-M458 was of Vandalic (or "Polish-Vandalic") origin, we should expect a very significant contribution of L260, which doesn't seem to be the case.

Bane
05-14-2016, 08:48 PM
I think I was writing something similar on another topic, but anyway I will write it again since this topic seems to be a proper place for that.
Hence, my opinion is that correlation of distribution for I1 and R-Z283 among non-Slavic nations in Southern Europe points to a partial Germanic origin of R-Z283, if we speak about Southern Europe only. This argument gains in strength if we see that I-CTS10228 does not follow that correlation.

I support the common view which considers majority of R-Z283 in Southern Europe to be Slavic, but I think not all of it and the deviation should especially be the case with R-Z283 among non-Slavic nations. To be more specific, IMO it should be of East Germanic origin.

Basta
07-23-2017, 08:13 PM
On Slavic Chronicles site there is an interesting article about Slavic people on Sicily with title "Saqaliba – Slavs in the Arab World, Part 1". Sorry, I can't post link, maybe I'm too "young" on the forum. :)

bryan
07-23-2017, 08:26 PM
Saqāliba (Arabic: صقالبة, sg. Siqlabi) refers to Slavic slaves, captured on the coasts of Europe in raids or wars, as well as mercenaries in the medieval Muslim world, in the Middle East, North Africa, Sicily and Al-Andalus. It is generally thought that the Arabic term is a Byzantine loanword: saqlab, siklab, saqlabi etc. is a corruption of Greek Sklavinoi meaning Slavs (from which the English word slave is also derived.[1] The word is often misused to refer only to slaves from Central and Eastern Europe,[2] but it refers to all Eastern Europeans and others traded by the Arab traders during the war or peace periods.[3]

There were several major routes of the trade of Slav slaves into the Muslim world: through Central Asia (Mongols, Tatars, Khazars, etc.); through the Mediterranean (Byzantium); through Central and Western Europe to Al-Andalus. The Volga trade route and other European routes, according to Ibrahim ibn Jakub, were serviced by Radanite Jewish merchants. Theophanes mentions that the Umayyad caliph Muawiyah I settled a whole army of 5,000 Slavic mercenaries in Syria in the 660s.

In the Muslim world, Saqaliba served or were forced to serve in a multitude of ways: servants, harem concubines, eunuchs, craftsmen, soldiers, and as Caliph's guards. In Iberia, Morocco, Damascus and Sicily, their military role may be compared with that of mamluks in the Ottoman Empire. In Spain, Slavic eunuchs were so popular and widely distributed that they became synonymous with Saqāliba.[4] Some Saqāliba became rulers of taifas (principalities) in Iberia after the collapse of the Caliphate of Cordoba. For example, Muyahid ibn Yusuf ibn Ali organized the Saqaliba in Dénia to rebel, seize control of the city, and establish the Taifa of Dénia, which extended its reach as far as the island of Majorca.

Kingslav93
07-23-2017, 11:11 PM
Saqāliba (Arabic: صقالبة, sg. Siqlabi) refers to Slavic slaves, captured on the coasts of Europe in raids or wars, as well as mercenaries in the medieval Muslim world, in the Middle East, North Africa, Sicily and Al-Andalus. It is generally thought that the Arabic term is a Byzantine loanword: saqlab, siklab, saqlabi etc. is a corruption of Greek Sklavinoi meaning Slavs (from which the English word slave is also derived.[1] The word is often misused to refer only to slaves from Central and Eastern Europe,[2] but it refers to all Eastern Europeans and others traded by the Arab traders during the war or peace periods.[3]

There were several major routes of the trade of Slav slaves into the Muslim world: through Central Asia (Mongols, Tatars, Khazars, etc.); through the Mediterranean (Byzantium); through Central and Western Europe to Al-Andalus. The Volga trade route and other European routes, according to Ibrahim ibn Jakub, were serviced by Radanite Jewish merchants. Theophanes mentions that the Umayyad caliph Muawiyah I settled a whole army of 5,000 Slavic mercenaries in Syria in the 660s.

In the Muslim world, Saqaliba served or were forced to serve in a multitude of ways: servants, harem concubines, eunuchs, craftsmen, soldiers, and as Caliph's guards. In Iberia, Morocco, Damascus and Sicily, their military role may be compared with that of mamluks in the Ottoman Empire. In Spain, Slavic eunuchs were so popular and widely distributed that they became synonymous with Saqāliba.[4] Some Saqāliba became rulers of taifas (principalities) in Iberia after the collapse of the Caliphate of Cordoba. For example, Muyahid ibn Yusuf ibn Ali organized the Saqaliba in Dénia to rebel, seize control of the city, and establish the Taifa of Dénia, which extended its reach as far as the island of Majorca.

Yeah right buddy this theory what you fantasize in your free time, nice try. They teaching this. Your luck stops here.

Dibran
10-08-2017, 09:51 PM
Well this M458 branch is in fact "West Slavic", not "Slavic"...

West, East and South Slavs genetically differ from each other.

Also m458 was found in the pre Slavic Lusatian culture was it not? So I suppose not all M458 would fall into Slavic if some of it wandered off prior to participating in Slavic ethnogenesis.

Pribislav
10-08-2017, 10:05 PM
Also m458 was found in the pre Slavic Lusatian culture was it not? So I suppose not all M458 would fall into Slavic if some of it wandered off prior to participating in Slavic ethnogenesis.

No, Lusatian sample was Z280. No M458 samples so far.

Dibran
10-14-2017, 03:58 PM
No, Lusatian sample was Z280. No M458 samples so far.

Strange. I have to find the source of the read. But I recall it saying Z280 encroached with I2a absorbing M458(wielbark/Lusatian) and becoming Slavs from that mixture.

So no actual ancient samples with M458 have actually been discovered there? If that's the case, I imagine the article was more theoretical than anything.

Mixed
10-24-2017, 10:24 PM
Haplogroup R1a is rare in all of Sicily, but its frequency is maximized in Ragusa, in the east of the island. When averaging out their samples, it is roughly 5% in both parts of the island, east and west.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/

To me, the only conclusion could be that it comes from a Greek ancestor. My paternal line goes back to Messina, where there was little if any direct influence from Northern or Eastern Europe. The Crusades had little impact and moreover, Norman haplogroups in the west of the island that increase slightly are I1 and North European R1b1b subclades. There is no increase of R1a in the west of the island, thus it is likely not from them.

But not everyone agrees. What do people think?

Same exact circumstances. Wow.

Dibran
11-08-2017, 01:33 PM
I think I was writing something similar on another topic, but anyway I will write it again since this topic seems to be a proper place for that.
Hence, my opinion is that correlation of distribution for I1 and R-Z283 among non-Slavic nations in Southern Europe points to a partial Germanic origin of R-Z283, if we speak about Southern Europe only. This argument gains in strength if we see that I-CTS10228 does not follow that correlation.

I support the common view which considers majority of R-Z283 in Southern Europe to be Slavic, but I think not all of it and the deviation should especially be the case with R-Z283 among non-Slavic nations. To be more specific, IMO it should be of East Germanic origin.

Did East Germanic Tribes/and Goth specifically carry M458 and or L1029 ? If so, I would reckon not all of M458/L1029 is directly Slavic, but partially Gothic. Didn't a number of other tribes(Goths included) join Slavs in some of their sieges in Byzantium? Also what do we reckon M458 in North Italy is from? Nearby Croatia? or Gothic left overs?

Michał
11-08-2017, 03:11 PM
Did East Germanic Tribes/and Goth specifically carry M458 and or L1029 ? If so, I would reckon not all of M458/L1029 is directly Slavic, but partially Gothic. Didn't a number of other tribes(Goths included) join Slavs in some of their sieges in Byzantium? Also what do we reckon M458 in North Italy is from? Nearby Croatia? or Gothic left overs?
So far, it doesn't seem that the Goths were M458+, as the preliminary results for the Wielbark culture in Poland don't show any R1a (not to mention R1a-M458). On the other hand, we cannot rule out that some rare M458 lineages of Slavic origin penetrated the neighboring Gothic population after the latter moved to Ukraine (Chernyakhov culture), but if so, this was likely a very minor contribution, thus unlikely to be confirmed by any future aDNA data.


Didn't a number of other tribes(Goths included) join Slavs in some of their sieges in Byzantium?
I have never heard about it (ie. about the Goths joining the Slavic forces in Byzantium). What is your source?



Also what do we reckon M458 in North Italy is from? Nearby Croatia? or Gothic left overs?
M458 is extremely rare in Italy, including Northern Italy, so it is hard to speculate about its exact origin there. Among the R1a STR haplotypes found in Tyrol (and more specifically in that part of Tyrol where the Slavic presence was attested), there were quite many haplotypes predicted to be M458+ (mostly L260>YP1337), so this makes it possible for some of those M458 lineages to migrate to Northern Italy.

vettor
11-08-2017, 04:58 PM
Did East Germanic Tribes/and Goth specifically carry M458 and or L1029 ? If so, I would reckon not all of M458/L1029 is directly Slavic, but partially Gothic. Didn't a number of other tribes(Goths included) join Slavs in some of their sieges in Byzantium? Also what do we reckon M458 in North Italy is from? Nearby Croatia? or Gothic left overs?

Does one associate the lombards, burgundians, vandals and goths as east-german tribes is the question that needs answering first.

goths and lombards clearly went through and stayed in the eastern alps and north-italy .


Did you mean this for a goth attack on byzantium with thracian support ............are thracians slav to you?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_War_(376%E2%80%93382)

vettor
11-08-2017, 05:04 PM
So far, it doesn't seem that the Goths were M458+, as the preliminary results for the Wielbark culture in Poland don't show any R1a (not to mention R1a-M458). On the other hand, we cannot rule out that some rare M458 lineages of Slavic origin penetrated the neighboring Gothic population after the latter moved to Ukraine (Chernyakhov culture), but if so, this was likely a very minor contribution, thus unlikely to be confirmed by any future aDNA data.


I have never heard about it (ie. about the Goths joining the Slavic forces in Byzantium). What is your source?



M458 is extremely rare in Italy, including Northern Italy, so it is hard to speculate about its exact origin there. Among the R1a STR haplotypes found in Tyrol (and more specifically in that part of Tyrol where the Slavic presence was attested), there were quite many haplotypes predicted to be M458+ (mostly L260>YP1337), so this makes it possible for some of those M458 lineages to migrate to Northern Italy.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0050794

there was 12.8% of R1a-M458 in Udine Friuli in pre-roman Italy................Udine origins started by histri-illyrians ( so did oderzo and trieste to many 2 other big towns ), before become venetic by about 400BC ................as per gimbatus and recent papers, the illyrians began in the volga and became one of the lusatian tribes, then settling in noricum ( east-austria ) and modern slovenia and northern croatia.

Dibran
11-08-2017, 05:18 PM
Does one associate the lombards, burgundians, vandals and goths as east-german tribes is the question that needs answering first.

goths and lombards clearly went through and stayed in the eastern alps and north-italy .


Did you mean this for a goth attack on byzantium with thracian support ............are thracians slav to you?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_War_(376%E2%80%93382)



No, weren't the Goths in Macedonia during the early middle ages?

Dibran
11-08-2017, 05:21 PM
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0050794

there was 12.8% of R1a-M458 in Udine Friuli in pre-roman Italy................Udine origins started by histri-illyrians ( so did oderzo and trieste to many 2 other big towns ), before become venetic by about 400BC ................as per gimbatus and recent papers, the illyrians began in the volga and became one of the lusatian tribes, then settling in noricum ( east-austria ) and modern slovenia and northern croatia.

I thought this Noricum origin of Proto-Illyrians is no longer given any credence?

vettor
11-08-2017, 05:44 PM
I thought this Noricum origin of Proto-Illyrians is no longer given any credence?

It can't be because Illyrians are associated with celts in Halstatt in Noricum

Dibran
11-08-2017, 05:53 PM
It can't be because Illyrians are associated with celts in Halstatt in Noricum

Most M458 is linked to older clades in Central Europe though? and so far all samples(albeit predating them) in Illyria are V13, J2b2, R1b-L23. If Noricum is their origin, and they were celtic, why would they be R1a-M458? Given its distribution and supposed origin, I would be more inclined to believe it may have been with Dacians(given the diversity of R1a among Romanians). But, Illyrians being celtic as you presume, would be R1b no?

Bane
11-08-2017, 08:27 PM
Did East Germanic Tribes/and Goth specifically carry M458 and or L1029 ? If so, I would reckon not all of M458/L1029 is directly Slavic, but partially Gothic. Didn't a number of other tribes(Goths included) join Slavs in some of their sieges in Byzantium? Also what do we reckon M458 in North Italy is from? Nearby Croatia? or Gothic left overs?

When looking for possible non-Slavic R1a in Southern Europe it is probably better to analyze Z280 first. R-M458 is considerably less frequent in Southern Europe than Z280. Specifically, M458 is almost non-existent in South Italy and Z280 is 4-5%.
North Italian M458 could be explained with these events: Slavic settlement of the Eastern Alps (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_settlement_of_the_Eastern_Alps)

Michał
11-08-2017, 08:47 PM
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0050794

there was 12.8% of R1a-M458 in Udine Friuli in pre-roman Italy.
You have managed to place two incorrect messages in just one sentence, which is kind of achievement.
Firstly, that paper is about the modern Italian population, not about the pre-Roman one. Secondly, those samples haven't been tested for M458, so you are also wrong about those six R1a cases from Udine (6/47, 12.8%) being R1a-M458.

BTW, figure 3 in that paper wrongly reports all Italian R1a cases as R1a*, which is of course impossible. The supplementary Table 4 shows that the only R1a-related SNP tested was SRY1532, and those six R1a cases from Udine were all R1a1a (also known as R1a-M198 or R1a-M17), with no downstream SNPs tested. Based on the STR haplotypes shown in that supplementary table, it seems almost certain they were M417+, but they are also extremely unlikely to be M458+. In fact, I would consider it most likely that five of them were Y2613+ and one was Y2902+ (Y3219+), with both these clades being the predominant R1a species in the neighboring countries of Slovenia and Croatia.

Gravetto-Danubian
11-09-2017, 04:33 AM
No, weren't the Goths in Macedonia during the early middle ages?

To be sure there were, during Late Antiquity. They had garrisons there around Macedonia & Epirus, but seem to have come & gone, for the most part (I'd call them pre-Visigoths).
For the most detailed look at their movements, look to Wolfram's History of Goths. (https://books.google.com.au/books?id=xsQxcJvaLjAC&pg=PA131&lpg=PA131&dq=goths+wolfram&source=bl&ots=cYwlA-ImN4&sig=08Ulvcw_QYy_sZGDqDj426LLjzE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJge-s1LDXAhUDJ5QKHYEBDM4Q6AEIQzAG#v=onepage&q=goths%20wolfram&f=false)

vettor
11-09-2017, 08:12 AM
You have managed to place two incorrect messages in just one sentence, which is kind of achievement.
Firstly, that paper is about the modern Italian population, not about the pre-Roman one. Secondly, those samples haven't been tested for M458, so you are also wrong about those six R1a cases from Udine (6/47, 12.8%) being R1a-M458.

BTW, figure 3 in that paper wrongly reports all Italian R1a cases as R1a*, which is of course impossible. The supplementary Table 4 shows that the only R1a-related SNP tested was SRY1532, and those six R1a cases from Udine were all R1a1a (also known as R1a-M198 or R1a-M17), with no downstream SNPs tested. Based on the STR haplotypes shown in that supplementary table, it seems almost certain they were M417+, but they are also extremely unlikely to be M458+. In fact, I would consider it most likely that five of them were Y2613+ and one was Y2902+ (Y3219+), with both these clades being the predominant R1a species in the neighboring countries of Slovenia and Croatia.

ok, np ......I see the 2012 paper was updated by a 2014 correction paper and I need to reread the 242 page below which has that info
http://amsdottorato.unibo.it/6527/1/Sarno_Stefania_Tesi.pdf

and this amended
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uxEh1NFQWOQ/UMgewBbkMsI/AAAAAAAABaU/Cvb-tHX-j6M/s1600/Y-DNA+tree+notes.png

I will get back to you once I finish the 242 page pdf

regards

BTW, the high percent of R1a in udine cannot be recent slove and/or croat people, ( there are no where near those numbers today of slavs in Udine ) the 12plus% must indicate people in slovenia and or north croatia prior to the arrival of slavs

Dibran
11-09-2017, 02:26 PM
To be sure there were, during Late Antiquity. They had garrisons there around Macedonia & Epirus, but seem to have come & gone, for the most part (I'd call them pre-Visigoths).
For the most detailed look at their movements, look to Wolfram's History of Goths. (https://books.google.com.au/books?id=xsQxcJvaLjAC&pg=PA131&lpg=PA131&dq=goths+wolfram&source=bl&ots=cYwlA-ImN4&sig=08Ulvcw_QYy_sZGDqDj426LLjzE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJge-s1LDXAhUDJ5QKHYEBDM4Q6AEIQzAG#v=onepage&q=goths%20wolfram&f=false)

Thank you. I will check it out.

Aquilifer
11-09-2017, 03:06 PM
Varangian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian_Guard)?



Immigrants from Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Iceland kept a predominantly Norse cast to the organization until the late 11th century. It is known that most of the Varangians were from what is today Sweden due to the majority of Runestones left there. According to the late Swedish historian Alf Henriksson in his book Svensk Historia (History of Sweden), the Scandinavian Varangian guardsmen were recognized by long hair, a red ruby set in the left ear and ornamented dragons sewn on their chainmail shirts. In these years, Scandinavian men left to enlist in the Byzantine Varangian Guard in such numbers that a medieval Swedish law from Västergötland declared no one could inherit while staying in "Greece"—the then Scandinavian term for the Byzantine Empire—to stop the emigration,[5] especially as two other European courts simultaneously also recruited Scandinavians:[6] Kievan Rus' c. 980–1060 and London 1018–1066 (the Ţingaliđ).[6]

...

These men formed the nucleus of the Varangian Guard, which saw extensive service in southern Italy in the eleventh century, as the Normans and Lombards worked to extinguish Byzantine authority there. In 1018, Basil II received a request from his catepan of Italy, Basil Boioannes, for reinforcements to put down the Lombard revolt of Melus of Bari. A detachment of the Varangian Guard was sent and in the Battle of Cannae, the Byzantines achieved a decisive victory.

The Varangians also participated in the partial reconquest of Sicily from the Arabs under George Maniakes in 1038. Here, they fought alongside Normans recently arrived in Italy seeking adventure and Lombards from Byzantine-held Apulia. A prominent member of the Guard at this time was Harald Hardrada, later King of Norway as Harald III (1046 to 1066). However, when Maniakes ostracised the Lombards by publicly humiliating their leader, Arduin, the Lombards deserted and the Normans and Varangians followed them.

Not long after, the catepan Michael Doukeianos had a force of Varangians stationed at Bari. On 16 March 1041, they were called up to fight the Normans near Venosa; many drowned in the subsequent retreat across the Ofanto. In September, Exaugustus Boioannes was sent to Italy with only a small contingent of Varangians to replace the disgraced Doukeianos. On 3 September 1041, they were defeated in battle by the Normans.

But like Morges said earlier in the thread, a deeper sublcade test for the OP would really narrow things down in his case.

alexfritz
11-09-2017, 09:38 PM
in boattini et al sicily (n=141) had 5.7% M17+ (subclades n.d.) yet determined 0% M458+ in sarno et al sicily (n=216) had 4.6% M17+ (subclades n.d.); the source of it in sicily specific is i think the islamic period, as one potential source being the Saqāliba, saracens[muslims] could only possess non-muslim slaves and amongst these were (initially)non-muslim slavs i.e. the Saqāliba, as are attested in muslim sicily in palermo by the Hărat al-Saqāliba and the Ibn Saqlab mosque or personal bio's such as Jawhar al-Siqillī;

acc to this map (FTDNA data?) R1a in sicily is mostly Z93+ and Z280+(>L1280+) as most common in the balkans;
https://pp.vk.me/c412329/v412329003/6742/-ALhiG7WYe8.jpg

Bane
11-09-2017, 10:46 PM
acc to this map (FTDNA data?) R1a in sicily is mostly Z93+ and Z280+(>L1280+) as most common in the balkans;
https://pp.vk.me/c412329/v412329003/6742/-ALhiG7WYe8.jpg

The most frequent R1a subclades in South Italy are:
R-Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816
R-Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340

This can be seen in FTDNA R1a project.

Artmar
11-10-2017, 12:27 PM
in boattini et al sicily (n=141) had 5.7% M17+ (subclades n.d.) yet determined 0% M458+ in sarno et al sicily (n=216) had 4.6% M17+ (subclades n.d.); the source of it in sicily specific is i think the islamic period, as one potential source being the Saqāliba, saracens[muslims] could only possess non-muslim slaves and amongst these were (initially)non-muslim slavs i.e. the Saqāliba, as are attested in muslim sicily in palermo by the Hărat al-Saqāliba and the Ibn Saqlab mosque or personal bio's such as Jawhar al-Siqillī;

acc to this map (FTDNA data?) R1a in sicily is mostly Z93+ and Z280+(>L1280+) as most common in the balkans;
https://pp.vk.me/c412329/v412329003/6742/-ALhiG7WYe8.jpg

L1280 isn't actually a common Balkan clade of Z280. As it's relatively easily detectable on the low level of markers used by old-fashioned population studies - it seems that it doesn't exceed 2% in total in any case so far. Thus, L1280 is not being the most common variant of Z280.

More common ones are Y2613 (with distribution high and centered in Croatia, still quite easy to detect), Y2902 (not easy to detect, distibution moderate in Croatia and higher in Slovenia) and YP340 (I guess mostly of YP371 variant - widespread but more common in Slovenia, also as P278.2 ). Sporadically, Z92 clades are found throughout Balkans, mostly being somewhere far under YP617 with some exceptions.

Serbian L1280 belongs to people who weren't tested randomly but selected specifically as belonging to families who celebrate this specific Saint of Serbian Orthodox Church: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abramios_the_Recluse . Person who manages their tests was once very active and it is one of the biggest clusters tested mostly (if not wholly) on FTDNA. In contrast, many other Serbian R1a people are often limited to Poreklo. When you include results from Poreklo it turns out that Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia aren't that badly covered as it seemed at first glance, while Macedonians and Greeks are painfully undertested at FTDNA and it doesn't seem to change soo.

So yes, this map is likely based just on FTDNA data and therefore it may be only quite correct for countries/regions that are tested quite well and with high resolution like Great Britain and Scandinavia but to lesser extent also for (Western) Germany and (Southern) Poland (for instance). It is also additionaly highly biased towards groups with higher ratio of old migration to the U.S., obviously. Therefore it's almost not near being correct for the most of Balkans, maybe aside regions and countries that lie closer to Austria.

Michał
11-10-2017, 01:57 PM
https://pp.vk.me/c412329/v412329003/6742/-ALhiG7WYe8.jpg


So yes, this map is likely based just on FTDNA data and therefore it may be only quite correct for countries/regions that are tested quite well and with high resolution like Great Britain and Scandinavia but to lesser extent also for (Western) Germany and (Southern) Poland (for instance). It is also additionaly highly biased towards groups with higher ratio of old migration to the U.S., obviously. Therefore it's almost not near being correct for the most of Balkans, maybe aside regions and countries that lie closer to Austria.
Even for Poland and most Western European countries, the map is definitely wrong about the relative frequencies for most of those reported subclades. For example, L664 nowhere exceeds 1% (and rarely exceeds 0.5%), so it is a tiny minority subclade in all European countries (even in NW Europe). Also, except Pomerania, L260 is by far the most common subclade in Poland, and I don't know any data that would suggest that L1029, L1280 or P278.2 are more common than L260 in any specific subregion.

BTW, the map shows L260 in Sardinia, and there is no evidence for this, neither in FTDNA nor in the very large sample of 1200 Sardinians tested by Francalacci et al.

felipesc25
01-28-2018, 04:05 AM
When he told something about italy,my direct paternal ancestor came from Veneto/Vicenza, i m r1a y2613. I dont know how but well,sometimes our haplogroups cant be easily explained. Maybe in your tree you find somebody that was a Merchant or a warrior. Who knows?

Dibran
02-01-2018, 02:52 AM
No.

I am thinking instead of ancient Greek, it might be Byzantine Greek, like a Hellenized Slav.

This was two years ago. Have you tested yet? We need some more Southern Europeans of non Slavic descent testing their R1a. If it comes from a Greek in retrospect then it could be M458 L1029 from an assimilated Slav into Byzantium.