PDA

View Full Version : DF27 > ZZ12 > ZZ41



Degredado
05-12-2016, 09:09 PM
Greetings,

When I first learned that I was DF27, I assumed - being of Portuguese ancestry - that I was descended from a very regular, ancient Iberian lineage of Lusitanian, Celtiberian or Basque roots. I later took the Big Y test and my terminal SNP was assigned as ZZ41 (located right below ZZ12).

As it turns out, there are only 9 guys on the FTDNA DF27 project who share this SNP, myself included. After a little research, I've gathered that 2 of these lineages are from the Isle of Man, 2 from NW England, 1 from Northern Ireland, 1 from Norway, 1 from France (Normandy) and 1 from Germany (Palatinate).

The Semargl site - http://www.semargl.me/haplogroups/maps/918/ - shows a total of 30 ZZ41+ guys, none of which having an Iberian origin (11 UK, 5 Germany, 2 US, 1 France, 1 Ireland, 1 Netherlands, 1 Norway and 8 "unknown"). So ZZ41 appears to have a strong Northern European touch to it, which has got me thinking that my Y-line might be more "foreign" (from an Iberian perspective) than I first thought.

Any other ZZ41+ folks here?

razyn
05-13-2016, 01:08 AM
Interesting perspective, I don't have much to add, and sort of agree with the tentative view. But did you look at the Big Tree? One of the ZZ41 samples from the 1000 Genomes project was Puerto Rican -- which is normally assumed to be of Iberian ancestry, unless we happen to know differently.

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1032&star=false

Osiris
05-13-2016, 02:19 AM
My father-in-law is the Pattinson from NW England. I only traced to just past 1800 but they were in the area for awhile. The Big Tree seems pretty accurate with the relationship between Pattinson and Lancaster having split maybe 1000 years ago. Then it seems like the Threat family split off maybe 600 years ago and the Key family somewhere in between. All rough estimates. It looks like the Pattinson/Lancaster/Threat/Key group were in England between 1500 to 1000 years ago so that should be a nice constraint on one section of the group.

Lugus
05-13-2016, 05:31 AM
Greetings,

When I first learned that I was DF27, I assumed - being of Portuguese ancestry - that I was descended from a very regular, ancient Iberian lineage of Lusitanian, Celtiberian or Basque roots. I later took the Big Y test and my terminal SNP was assigned as ZZ41 (located right below ZZ12).

As it turns out, there are only 9 guys on the FTDNA DF27 project who share this SNP, myself included. After a little research, I've gathered that 2 of these lineages are from the Isle of Man, 2 from NW England, 1 from Northern Ireland, 1 from Norway, 1 from France (Normandy) and 1 from Germany (Palatinate).

The Semargl site - http://www.semargl.me/haplogroups/maps/918/ - shows a total of 30 ZZ41+ guys, none of which having an Iberian origin (11 UK, 5 Germany, 2 US, 1 France, 1 Ireland, 1 Netherlands, 1 Norway and 8 "unknown"). So ZZ41 appears to have a strong Northern European touch to it, which has got me thinking that my Y-line might be more "foreign" (from an Iberian perspective) than I first thought.

Any other ZZ41+ folks here?

Welcome to the forum.

It's obvious that not all DF27 is Iberian and not all Iberians are DF27. Some DF27 lines seem to have few or no Iberians. What happened in the Peninsula was a founder effect with the founders coming from somewhere leaving behind some of their fellow DF27 who never made it to Iberia. Or perhaps some lines went extinct in Iberia and thrived elsewhere.

Having said this, you should take into account a few interconnected considerations:

1- Sample bias strongly favoring NW Europe - comparatively few Iberians tested (including Iberoamericans).
2- The deeper the testing the stronger the bias is - tests become more expensive favoring samples from the rich North.
3- Low number of high resolution samples (from anywhere) - again, tests are still expensive and not all Americans are rich.
4- The high level of ignorance we still dealing with at this point - we need much more data and much more research.
5- The precarious and fluid state of our knowledge - what we think we know today might turn out to be nonsense tomorrow (including all that I'm saying now).

I can give you a personal example. My terminal SNP was unknown until August last year when I did my Big Y and now we're already 3 guys (all Portuguese). Someone has to be the first and often he signals the existence of many others still hiding.

EastAnglian
05-13-2016, 08:59 AM
Welcome to the forum.

It's obvious that not all DF27 is Iberian and not all Iberians are DF27. Some DF27 lines seem to have few or no Iberians. What happened in the Peninsula was a founder effect with the founders coming from somewhere leaving behind some of their fellow DF27 who never made it to Iberia. Or perhaps some lines went extinct in Iberia and thrived elsewhere.

Having said this, you should take into account a few interconnected considerations:

1- Sample bias strongly favoring NW Europe - comparatively few Iberians tested (including Iberoamericans).
2- The deeper the testing the stronger the bias is - tests become more expensive favoring samples from the rich North.
3- Low number of high resolution samples (from anywhere) - again, tests are still expensive and not all Americans are rich.
4- The high level of ignorance we still dealing with at this point - we need much more data and much more research.
5- The precarious and fluid state of our knowledge - what we think we know today might turn out to be nonsense tomorrow (including all that I'm saying now).

I can give you a personal example. My terminal SNP was unknown until August last year when I did my Big Y and now we're already 3 guys (all Portuguese). Someone has to be the first and often he signals the existence of many others still hiding.

Do you think DF27 originated outside Iberia?

corner
05-13-2016, 11:28 AM
I think we are all hoping DF27 will be found somewhere in ancient yDNA.

A 4000-ish year old L21 man has been identified recently in Northern Ireland. He was buried with 'Food Vessel' grave goods but I haven't heard of ancient DF27 being identified anywhere yet.

EastAnglian
05-13-2016, 12:05 PM
I think we are all hoping DF27 will be found somewhere in ancient yDNA.

A 4000-ish year old L21 man has been identified recently in Northern Ireland. He was buried with 'Food Vessel' grave goods but I haven't heard of ancient DF27 being identified anywhere yet.

I'd say they should be looking in Cornwall, it's a hotspot for L617.

rms2
05-13-2016, 12:06 PM
Do you think DF27 originated outside Iberia?

I know you asked that of Lugus, not me, but I'll offer my opinion anyway.

I never did think DF27 originated in Iberia, but with the recent discovery of Z40481 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7150-Z40481-Splits-R-P312&p=156214&viewfull=1#post156214), it seems even less likely than ever.

Just as U152 has been found in eastern Bell Beaker, I suspect DF27 will be, as well, and that all the Z40481+ clades originated in east central Europe.

Just my opinion.

Degredado
05-13-2016, 02:42 PM
Interesting perspective, I don't have much to add, and sort of agree with the tentative view. But did you look at the Big Tree? One of the ZZ41 samples from the 1000 Genomes project was Puerto Rican -- which is normally assumed to be of Iberian ancestry, unless we happen to know differently.

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1032&star=false

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that Puerto Rican guy. It's a pity these Genomes project results are completely anonymous (aside from nationality).

Degredado
05-13-2016, 03:01 PM
Welcome to the forum.

It's obvious that not all DF27 is Iberian and not all Iberians are DF27. Some DF27 lines seem to have few or no Iberians. What happened in the Peninsula was a founder effect with the founders coming from somewhere leaving behind some of their fellow DF27 who never made it to Iberia. Or perhaps some lines went extinct in Iberia and thrived elsewhere.

Having said this, you should take into account a few interconnected considerations:

1- Sample bias strongly favoring NW Europe - comparatively few Iberians tested (including Iberoamericans).
2- The deeper the testing the stronger the bias is - tests become more expensive favoring samples from the rich North.
3- Low number of high resolution samples (from anywhere) - again, tests are still expensive and not all Americans are rich.
4- The high level of ignorance we still dealing with at this point - we need much more data and much more research.
5- The precarious and fluid state of our knowledge - what we think we know today might turn out to be nonsense tomorrow (including all that I'm saying now).

I can give you a personal example. My terminal SNP was unknown until August last year when I did my Big Y and now we're already 3 guys (all Portuguese). Someone has to be the first and often he signals the existence of many others still hiding.

Obrigado.

I agree with all the points you made. Is your common ancestor with the two other Portuguese guys recent enough for you to share the same surname? I'd be happy if I could find someone who shares a paternal ancestor with me in the Common Era, but no luck so far.

Lugus
05-13-2016, 04:25 PM
Do you think DF27 originated outside Iberia?

Yes, that's what I think. I see P312 as a whole with areas where it is more diverse and areas where it is less. The less diverse areas are peripheral and the more diverse area is central to them. That fits a model of founder groups leaving the core to the the periphery. This is also supported by archaeological records showing signs of migration into the peripherical areas but not the opposite. In the case of Italy we even have literary evidence of Celtic migrations. The same about Celtic expansion into the Balkans and Asia Minor already well into historical times.

Lugus
05-13-2016, 04:39 PM
Obrigado.

I agree with all the points you made. Is your common ancestor with the two other Portuguese guys recent enough for you to share the same surname? I'd be happy if I could find someone who shares a paternal ancestor with me in the Common Era, but no luck so far.

No, our terminal SNP seems to be 3000 years old, but that could change as more samples are taken into account. The concept of surname is quite recent and until not long ago surnames were very fluid in Portugal especially in rural areas, where most people lived anyway.

Osiris
05-26-2017, 08:02 PM
I put together a tree for ZZ41 using SNP and STR. I'll avoid surnames. It definitely biased towards England due to the amount of samples. I have almost 100 England samples which allows me to tease out STR changes that affect large groups versus smaller changes that happened a couple times in different branches. The other samples come out to about 30. I think you can break up M11668 (I just did) so I'll keep at it. I hope people find this useful.


* ZZ41
****** DYS389I/DYS389B: 13-16 to 14-16 (Portugal, Brazil, Norway)
****** Unnamed branch a
*********** Unnamed branch b (Ireland, Isle of Man)
*********** BY3291
**************** FGC46561 (Belarus)
**************** M11668 (England)
********************* DYS710: 35 to 37, DYS540: 12 to 13 (Belgium)
********************* DYS463: 24 to 28, DYS712: 20 to 19 (Germany)
**************** Z20907 (DYS389I/DYS389B: 13-16 > 13-17, DYS406S1: 10 > 9, DYS487: 13 > 15) (England)
********************* DYS520: 20 to 21, DYS710; 35 to 33, DYS463 24 to 25, DYS712: 20 to 18, DYS532: 15 to 16 (England)
********************* BY19265 (England)
************************** Unnamed branch c (England)
************************** DYS444: 13 to 14, DYS635: 23 to 24 (England)
************************** DYS3951Sb: 16 > 15, DYS449: 29 > 30, DYS452: 31 > 32, DYS495: 16 > 17, DYS587: 18 > 19, YCAIIb: 23 > 22 (England)

MLD74
10-23-2017, 06:49 PM
My Y-DNA line is BY19223 under BY3291, both below ZZ41. This also apparently includes BY19202 and BY19201. Some who are positive for that haplogroup seem to have origins in the Rhine River region. This includes northeastern France, Belgium, The Netherlands, Luxembourg and western Germany. Hopefully, we can find more information about it in the near future.

Osiris
10-23-2017, 10:07 PM
Hi MLD74 and welcome. The little ZZ41 subgroup is growing quite nicely. Hopefully it keeps up.

The Belarussians I mentioned above are an error on YFull's part. I guess since no other ZZ41's went to YFull the Pattinson line got matched to them and created a false branch.

Looking at ZZ41 it looks like there's a few seemingly clear cut ethnic groups with associated SNPs.

1) There's the Z20907 which contain about 8 different families from around England. They appear to have split apart between 500 and 2000 years ago. I based on FTDNA'a TiP and expanded it a little bit.
2) There's the M11668 or BY19202 group which seems to contain a lot of Belgiums and Germans and are a brother group to #1.
3) Then there's S7432 which contain a lot of men from the British Isles and Norway.
4) Then there's the 4 kits to the furthest right on the Big Tree for ZZ41 who all appear to be Iberian in origin.

It's so tidy you almost want to write a story on how it all came to be.