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loisrp
05-13-2016, 06:30 AM
I was noticing a match with a family tree going back 4+ generations with only English people in central England has a paternal haplotype of A-M13.

Based on a quick bit of research, that seems a bit out of place for traditional English ancestry. Is this the case? What would be a typical immigration path for an A-M13 man to England more than two centuries ago? Or is this perhaps another instance of Roman soldier DNA?

lgmayka
05-13-2016, 08:44 AM
YFull's haplotree for A-M13 (https://yfull.com/tree/A-M13/) shows a Saudi and two Sardinian research samples. Their TMRCA is 7600 years ago.

crossover
10-03-2016, 02:55 PM
well england played a big role in slave trade so a-m13 might be from that

Morges
10-03-2016, 03:11 PM
I was noticing a match with a family tree going back 4+ generations with only English people in central England has a paternal haplotype of A-M13.

Based on a quick bit of research, that seems a bit out of place for traditional English ancestry. Is this the case? What would be a typical immigration path for an A-M13 man to England more than two centuries ago? Or is this perhaps another instance of Roman soldier DNA?

Roman soldier is a nonsense since this haplogroup is nonexistent in Italy, but only one sample founded in Sardinia who means nothing.

Larth
10-05-2016, 11:25 AM
I was noticing a match with a family tree going back 4+ generations with only English people in central England has a paternal haplotype of A-M13.

Based on a quick bit of research, that seems a bit out of place for traditional English ancestry. Is this the case? What would be a typical immigration path for an A-M13 man to England more than two centuries ago? Or is this perhaps another instance of Roman soldier DNA?

Roman soldier? Not at all. Most likely slave trade. Geneticists have already found among some British with Y-DNAs of West African origin.

Dubhthach
10-05-2016, 11:35 AM
A-M13 is ancient, going by YFULL it has following:
formed 45000 ybp, TMRCA 10500 ybp

https://yfull.com/tree/A-M13/

Ideally some sort of BigY/FGC sequencing of the Y-Chromosome might give a better idea of how divergent your A-M13 lineage is from other A-M13 men who've done testing.

Even in an African context Haplogroup A isn't the most common of lineages:

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k178/argiedude/Africay-dna-allstudiescombined7000s.gif

It's highest presence appears to be in Southern/Eastern Africa.
https://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/na-5.jpg

If it's a case of more recent admixture into your lineage, it's possible that something would show up on an autosomnal test such as AncestryDNA of FamilyFinder from FTDNA. If you didn't show any African components on those tests I'd imagine it pushes any chance of admixture back to well before 200 years ago.

MacUalraig
10-05-2016, 11:46 AM
There is an A-M13/A-M202 group in the Scottish Boyds who are an Ayrshire family/'clan'. I don't think they have worked out why yet though. It's difficult to solve unless you have access to the paper trail research of the testers to vet it ;-)

Megalophias
10-05-2016, 08:30 PM
Roman soldier is a nonsense since this haplogroup is nonexistent in Italy, but only one sample founded in Sardinia who means nothing.

7 out of 1200 from Sardinia, in fact, but yes, I don't know of anything to suggest it is more common in Italy than the rest of Southern Europe. We are talking about something very rare so it could have arrived in any number of ways.

It is much more common in East Africa than in West Africa, so more likely to have arrived via North Africa or Arabia than by the West African slave trade. Actually I'm not sure it's any more common in West Africa than it is in Southern Europe.

Morges
10-06-2016, 06:47 AM
7 out of 1200 from Sardinia, in fact, but yes, I don't know of anything to suggest it is more common in Italy than the rest of Southern Europe. We are talking about something very rare so it could have arrived in any number of ways.

It is much more common in East Africa than in West Africa, so more likely to have arrived via North Africa or Arabia than by the West African slave trade. Actually I'm not sure it's any more common in West Africa than it is in Southern Europe.

Only seven in 1200 sardinian males is nothing and zero in over 2500 tested italians. So i exclude romans who surely don't used black africans. It must be an effect of recent free slavery.

http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2007/01/sub-saharan-african-y-chromosome.html?m=1

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_British

kingjohn
12-10-2016, 02:24 AM
intresting one of the the derived branches of haplogroup A-m13
is found in sardinia and the tmrca is 5200 ky
https://www.yfull.com/tree/A1b1/
3200 bc there is no way it is conected to slavery or recent time :)
so this could be ancient migration ..... ;)

A-PH804- FGC38332 * FGC38308 * FGC38306+7 SNPsformed 9500 ybp, TMRCA 5200 ybp info
id:YF07360SAU
id:ERS255963ITA [IT-CA] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cagliari
id:ERS255967ITA [IT-CA]

regards
adam

ArmandoR1b
12-10-2016, 05:33 AM
intresting one of the the derived branches of haplogroup A-m13
is found in sardinia and the tmrca is 5200 ky
https://www.yfull.com/tree/A1b1/
3200 bc there is no way it is conected to slavery or recent time :)
so this could be ancient migration ..... ;)

A-PH804- FGC38332 * FGC38308 * FGC38306+7 SNPsformed 9500 ybp, TMRCA 5200 ybp info
id:YF07360SAU
id:ERS255963ITA [IT-CA] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cagliari
id:ERS255967ITA [IT-CA]

regards
adam

I think that those kits are from modern samples and not ancient samples. If they are modern samples then the TMRCA is meaningless for trying to determine how long the subclade has been in Sardinia.

kingjohn
12-10-2016, 10:38 AM
if what you say is true
than all the yfull dates for tmrca of all haplogroups not only A{which usually based on modern samples}:\
is all something we should ignor ....
regards
adam

lgmayka
12-10-2016, 10:57 AM
If they are modern samples then the TMRCA is meaningless for trying to determine how long the subclade has been in Sardinia.
It is unlikely that the two rare Sardinian A-PH804 samples descend from independent recent migrations. It is much more likely that the A-PH804 migration to the island occurred at least 5200 years ago.

A Norfolk L-M20
12-10-2016, 11:47 AM
From Wikipedia:

"Geneticists have found that seven men with the surname Revis, which originates in Yorkshire, carry a genetic signature previously found only in people of West African origin. All of the men belonged to Haplogroup A1a (M31), a subclade of Haplogroup A which geneticists believe originated in Eastern or Southern Africa.[24] The men are not regarded as phenotypically African and there are no documents, anecdotal evidence or oral traditions suggesting that the Revis family has African ancestry. It has been conjectured that the presence of this haplogroup may date from the Roman era, when both Africans and Romans of African descent are known to have settled in Britain.[24] According to Bryan Sykes, "although the Romans ruled from AD 43 until 410, they left a tiny genetic footprint"; nevertheless, the genetics of some apparently white people in England suggests that they are "descended from north African, Middle Eastern and Roman clans".[25]"

Jean discussed this:

"So it is surprising to find the haplogroup A1a (M31) in a family of the Yorkshire surname Revis. This haplogroup is close to the root of the human family tree and rare even in Africa. Genealogical detective work established that the Revis males who carried A1a fitted onto two family trees going back to the 18th century in Britain. A paper trail to a common ancestor could not be found, but genetically he can be deduced a few generations earlier. How A1a arrived in Yorkshire remains a mystery. As Turi King and her colleagues point out, it could have come via a round-about route and not carried direct from Africa.22 A possible clue is that the surname Revis is derived from Rievaulx.23 In 1301 a William de Ryvaus was the wealthiest taxpayer in Marton, North Yorkshire, about six miles from Rievaulx, and a man of the same name paid tax in Gisburne (Guisborough) about 12 miles north of Rievaulx, while a William de Ryvauxe was the sole taxpayer for Barnaby, in the parish of Guisbrough.24 Rievaulx was a Cistercian Abbey in medieval times, founded from Clairvaux in France, and part of an Order with houses in Spain and Portugal built on land won from the Moors. No doubt genetic traces were left in Iberia of the Moorish centuries. A1a is not the most likely haplogroup to be among them, but perhaps not completely impossible. Master masons and other useful craftsmen could have been recommended by one monastic house to another in the Order. So we can dimly see one possible route from Africa to Yorkshire."
Source:
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/surnames.shtml

The thing is, we have to be very careful not to try too hard to interpret how these lineages moved, by whom, when. I recently convinced myself that my odd Y-DNA, a rarely recorded subclade, of a haplogroup that is rarely found in Europe, may have been brought to England by a lascar sailor picked up by an early European ship in the Persian Gulf or Arabian Sea, who perhaps had Balochi ancestry. Within 24 hours of formulating this new hypothesis, a new L-SK1414 turned up, among a Druze sample from Lebanon. Then I start to see all sorts of historical connections and diplomacy with the Druze and Europeans during the 16th-17th century, and I see a possible Mediterranean route.

However, my time envelope is wide. my Asian Y could have arrived in England anytime between 2,000 and 500 years ago. The temptation is to tie it to known historical events or "peoples". A Syrian soldier in the Roman Army (yes, we know there were Syrian troops in Roman Britain). A Middle Eastern Christian traveled with returning crusaders. We don't know! What I would point out though, is that these rare migrations could have nothing to do with any "historical event". People like to wander. Some people stick at home, never travelling. However ever since the Palaeolithic - some like to wander to the next beach, cross that wide sea, trek to a distant valley. Merchants, adventurers, speculators, smiths, masons, slaves, servants, mercenaries, refugees, you name it.

I think that we shouldn't doubt that an African, or perhaps a lineage that started out in Africa in the past 10,000 to 500 years, couldn't have somehow ended up in England, just as my Y - probably originating in the Iran / Iraq region, ended up in Medieval England.

These stories of individuals are rarely recorded, but astounding when we find them in the Y-DNA.

RCO
12-10-2016, 01:45 PM
My cluster next closest match is also with a small English group from Devon, England https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC6031/ TMRCA 5500 ybp.
Early Neolithic maritime navigation is possible but we have a relatively big Portuguese cluster in the last 1,000 years with STR matches beyond FTDNA's 37, 67 screen matches (0,5% of the total Portuguese Y-DNA, what is a "populous" lineage in the last 1,000 years) and a tiny isolated English group locally concentrated, what can be an indication of a foreign movement in the last 500 years, perhaps. English cases are oversampled in relation to other nationalities, but the frequencies are good hints of the chronology of the arrivals there.

ArmandoR1b
12-10-2016, 01:51 PM
if what you say is true
than all the yfull dates for tmrca of all haplogroups not only A{which usually based on modern samples}:\
is all something we should ignor ....
regards
adamNo, it does not mean that. The TMRCA dates have their purpose and need to be used properly. Additionally, not all of the kits are modern samples. YFull does have some ancient samples and the ancient samples that do exist in academic studies can be used along with YFull TMRCA dates to deduce certain information.

ArmandoR1b
12-10-2016, 01:54 PM
It is unlikely that the two rare Sardinian A-PH804 samples descend from independent recent migrations. It is much more likely that the A-PH804 migration to the island occurred at least 5200 years ago.It's only two samples. It is very much plausible that two different people arrived together to Sardinia within the last 2,000 years. Only time will tell once enough populations have been sampled.

kingjohn
12-10-2016, 02:08 PM
agree that we need ancient y dna samples from sardinia
to settle this ....:\

Angoliga
01-23-2017, 06:05 AM
There is an A-M13/A-M202 group in the Scottish Boyds who are an Ayrshire family/'clan'. I don't think they have worked out why yet though. It's difficult to solve unless you have access to the paper trail research of the testers to vet it ;-)

An American that paper-trailed his paternal lineage to Yorkshire (1550s) is convinced that his unexpected A-M13 on his Boyd and Wray-line was the result of an NPE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-paternity_event) from the Spanish Armada's ship-wreckage; he has some 23andMe posts on the A HG thread... It seems likely to me that the NPE's affecting both the Wray and Boyd lines happened in Yorkshire from Spanish Armada sailors finding their way to different spots around England. Some sailor with Nilotic heritage, arriving no-doubt with Islamic invaders of Spain, found opportunities in Yorkshire to transmit his special Y-Chromosome for our benefit.
(A later post)...I think I found the NPE in my branch of the Wray family. My 13th great-grandfather, John Wray, was born in Middleham, England, in 1554 and died in 1571. His wife, name unknown, was born in Middleham in 1560 and had her only child (John Wray, born approximately 1585 and died sometime after 1621) at least fourteen years after his father's death. I suspect that the child, John Wray, actually was born in late 1589, allowing Mrs. NPE Wray the opportunity to have one child by a friendly immigrant Spaniard after the destruction of the Spanish Armada. ...too fanciful a theory?

Interestingly, I found a 23andme member of Cuban decent whose of paternal-Spanish lineage and believes his A-M13 HG is a relic of the Moorish occupation.



It's worth noting that there's actually several ancient subclades of A-M13, here's an observation of at least four A3b2 clusters...

1) A European/North African cluster defined by 10/11/12 (A3b2*)
2) An Egyptian/Middle East cluster defined by 10/12/12 (A3b2*)
3) An East African cluster defined by 9/12/12 (A3b2*)
4) An Ethiopia-only cluster defined by 9/12/13 (A3b2b)

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k178/argiedude/A3b2map.gif
*courtesy of a 2008 post from a user named "argiedude" on egyptsearch.com (http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000528;p=1#000 000) **this visual lacks A-M13 in many other SSA & MENA studies but gives a decent illustration

Given their isolation from the predominantly SSA A-M13 regions, I'd assume these European/North African and Egyptian/Middle Eastern clusters might have been predominantly Eurasian since antiquity and are the result of an ancient divergence. So, a connection to a SSA paternal ancestor in relatively modern times wouldn't be necessary.


Here's a snapshot of my only two matches on Ysearch, a Y-DNA database (*Yebuga is my surname at the top). The first match is listed as having a British/Irish/Saudi origin (probably belonging to the first or 2nd cluster mentioned earlier) and the second match is surprisingly also from my the same country as my paternal line in Uganda. I'm assuming they're both very anciently related (please correct me if I'm wrong) since they only have 9 and 8 markers compared, respectively . Ironically the British/Irish/Saudi shares more markers than my Ugandan match:

http://i.imgur.com/CstFS2n.png

..I guess this goes to show, A-M13 is deserving of more subclades

Power77
01-23-2017, 07:15 AM
An American that paper-trailed his paternal lineage to Yorkshire (1550s) is convinced that his unexpected A-M13 on his Boyd and Wray-line was the result of an NPE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-paternity_event) from the Spanish Armada's ship-wreckage; he has some 23andMe posts on the A HG thread... It seems likely to me that the NPE's affecting both the Wray and Boyd lines happened in Yorkshire from Spanish Armada sailors finding their way to different spots around England. Some sailor with Nilotic heritage, arriving no-doubt with Islamic invaders of Spain, found opportunities in Yorkshire to transmit his special Y-Chromosome for our benefit.
(A later post)...I think I found the NPE in my branch of the Wray family. My 13th great-grandfather, John Wray, was born in Middleham, England, in 1554 and died in 1571. His wife, name unknown, was born in Middleham in 1560 and had her only child (John Wray, born approximately 1585 and died sometime after 1621) at least fourteen years after his father's death. I suspect that the child, John Wray, actually was born in late 1589, allowing Mrs. NPE Wray the opportunity to have one child by a friendly immigrant Spaniard after the destruction of the Spanish Armada. ...too fanciful a theory?

Interestingly, I found a 23andme member of Cuban decent whose of paternal-Spanish lineage and believes his A-M13 HG is a relic of the Moorish occupation.



It's worth noting that there's actually several ancient subclades of A-M13, here's an observation of at least four A3b2 clusters...

1) A European/North African cluster defined by 10/11/12 (A3b2*)
2) An Egyptian/Middle East cluster defined by 10/12/12 (A3b2*)
3) An East African cluster defined by 9/12/12 (A3b2*)
4) An Ethiopia-only cluster defined by 9/12/13 (A3b2b)

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k178/argiedude/A3b2map.gif
*courtesy of a 2008 post from a user named "argiedude" on egyptsearch.com (http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000528;p=1#000 000)

Given their isolation from the predominantly SSA A-M13 regions, I'd assume these European/North African and Egyptian/Middle Eastern clusters might have been predominantly Eurasian since antiquity and are the result of an ancient divergence. So, a connection to a SSA paternal ancestor in relatively modern times wouldn't be necessary.


Here's a snapshot of my only two matches on Ysearch (*Yebuga is my surname at the top). The first match is listed as having a British/Irish/Saudi origin (probably belonging to the first or 2nd cluster mentioned earlier) and the second match is surprisingly also from my the same country as my paternal line in Uganda. I'm assuming they're both very anciently related since they only have 9 and 8 markers compared, respectively. Ironically the British/Irish/Saudi shares more markers than my Ugandan match:

http://i.imgur.com/CstFS2n.png

..I guess this goes to show, A-M13 is deserving of more subclades


I think the Roman Empire is a likely (if not the best!) explanation for the presence of such lineages in (Western) Eurasia.

Angoliga
01-23-2017, 05:03 PM
I think the Roman Empire is a likely (if not the best!) explanation for the presence of such lineages in (Western) Eurasia.

I'd say the same. Moreover, I don't think any of these A-M13s from the British Isles had any notable autosmal SSA affinity -- if they did, then maybe a link to slavery would be more conceivable.

kingjohn
01-23-2017, 07:55 PM
the boyd clan from scotland is A-M13 :
Haplogroup: A3b2 (tested)
Last name: Boyd
Variant spellings:

Tested with: Family Tree DNA
Contact person: Betty Contact this user

Most distant known paternal ancestor on the direct male line
First Name: Robert
Last Name: Boyd
Year Born:
Year Died: About 1761
Country of Origin: Ulster, Ireland
Latitude:
Longitude:



sorce: http://www.ysearch.org/?uid=
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Haplogroup_A/default.aspx?section=yresults

Haplogroup: A3b2 (tested)
Last name: Boyd
Variant spellings:

Tested with: Family Tree DNA
Contact person: David John Boyd Contact this user

Most distant known paternal ancestor on the direct male line
First Name: John
Last Name: Boyd
Year Born: About 1687
Year Died:
Country of Origin: Middlesex, England
Latitude: 51 deg 31 min 10 sec N
Longitude: 0 deg 4 min 12 sec W


regards
adam

p.s
i dont think this clan descendent from lost sudani soldier
could be ancient lets remember the A-M13 that were found in sardinia :)

Power77
01-24-2017, 02:00 AM
p.s
i dont think this clan descendent from lost sudani soldier
could be ancient lets remember the A-M13 that were found in sardinia :)

I could see A-M13 appearing in Roman-era ancient remains (probably belonging to either Nubian or Berber mercenaries) throughout Europe. After all, we found a J2 sample belonging to an individual of likely Syrian origin in Roman York.

Angoliga
01-24-2017, 05:09 AM
Maybe the connection isn't as Ancient as I thought. I think I incorrectly used the ySearch parameters; the settings had been left on default for matches within a genealogical time-frame. :doh:

After some tweaking, I found preferable parameters that provide more meaningful insight for matches beyond the last few hundred years: "on at least 8 markers, allowing a genetic distance of 1 per marker matched above 12". *If I set parameters going back any further, I start getting matches from deep anthropological periods where the reported Y-DNA isn't even within the A-haplogroup.

These afmd preferred parameters gave 95 matches with matching Y-DNA markers in the range of 22 to 13 (*once genetic distance is subtracted from markers compared):




My Distant Y-DNA Matches (ySearch):

http://i.imgur.com/yXAE2yt.jpg

The closest related Boyd has 19 matching-markers (FJWRC - Drumcliff, Ireland) with the farthest related Boyd having 13 (PGKYJ - Canada). So, based off of FTDNA's probability of MRCA (https://www.familytreedna.com/faq-markers.aspx) (chart below), the MRCA might have lived between 23 and 28 generations ago (~800s years ago using isogg's average generation lifespan of 31.5 years (http://isogg.org/wiki/Generation_length#Average_generation_length)). This timeline would fit more with the Moors in Europe (711 AD -1492 AD (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors)) than the Roman period in Britannia (43 AD-410 AD (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Britain)).

It's interesting to note, most of the highest matching-markers are Saudis and Algerians - maybe that gives more credence to a Moorish connection.




FTDNA's Probability For Most Recent Common Ancestor (MRCA):

http://i.imgur.com/uwdnv2l.png




the boyd clan from scotland is A-M13 :
Haplogroup: A3b2 (tested)
Last name: Boyd
Variant spellings:

Tested with: Family Tree DNA
Contact person: Betty Contact this user

Most distant known paternal ancestor on the direct male line
First Name: Robert
Last Name: Boyd
Year Born:
Year Died: About 1761
Country of Origin: Ulster, Ireland
Latitude:
Longitude:



sorce: http://www.ysearch.org/?uid=
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Haplogroup_A/default.aspx?section=yresults

Haplogroup: A3b2 (tested)
Last name: Boyd
Variant spellings:

Tested with: Family Tree DNA
Contact person: David John Boyd Contact this user

Most distant known paternal ancestor on the direct male line
First Name: John
Last Name: Boyd
Year Born: About 1687
Year Died:
Country of Origin: Middlesex, England
Latitude: 51 deg 31 min 10 sec N
Longitude: 0 deg 4 min 12 sec W


regards
adam

p.s
i dont think this clan descendent from lost sudani soldier
could be ancient lets remember the A-M13 that were found in sardinia :)



Both the Boyd's you mentioned from Ulster, Ireland and Middlesex, England have appeared as distant matches. There's also several matches with matching-markers from the Ray line (also spelt Wray, Rea) that I was referring to in my past previous post.



**My conclusions regarding the 3 ySearch matches from a previous post were incorrect, here's why:

Here's a snapshot of my only two matches on Ysearch, a Y-DNA database (*Yebuga is my surname at the top). The first match is listed as having a British/Irish/Saudi origin (probably belonging to the first or 2nd cluster mentioned earlier) and the second match is surprisingly also from my the same country as my paternal line in Uganda. I'm assuming they're both very anciently related (please correct me if I'm wrong) since they only have 9 and 8 markers compared, respectively . Ironically the British/Irish/Saudi shares more markers than my Ugandan match:

http://i.imgur.com/CstFS2n.png

...whoever uploaded these Ugandan and British/Irish/Saudi matches only did an 8-YDNA marker test. The default parameters I had set were "on at least 8 markers, allowing a maximum genetic distance of 0". The default selection for "maximum genetic distance of 0" was the reason why all my distant genetic matches weren't yielded in the search.


If you'd like to have a gander, here's my ySearch (http://www.ysearch.org/search_start.asp?uid=) User ID: "SUD2Z"

I'm still a novice with Y-DNA - if any experienced members can verify or dispute this method of Y-DNA marker-matching, I'd greatly appreciate your guidance. Thanks :)

Angoliga
01-25-2017, 12:37 AM
I could see A-M13 appearing in Roman-era ancient remains (probably belonging to either Nubian or Berber mercenaries) throughout Europe. After all, we found a J2 sample belonging to an individual of likely Syrian origin in Roman York.

Looks like you're right.



Maybe third times the charm :unsure:- The logic used in the last post is invalid, it looks like a Roman connection is more appropriate for these A-M13s from the British Isles.

The probabilities I used for TMRCA are actually only applicable when the denominator of compared markers are the same ie. a match of 12/37 matching-markers wouldn't give the same probability of MRCA for a match with 12/12 matching-markers.

In this example, a 12/37 would have a genetic distance beyond 6 and would therefore only be deeply anthropologically related. In this scenario, FTDNA would interpret the relation of a 37 marker-comparison match of >6 genetic distance (https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/y-dna-testing/y-str/two-men-share-surname-genetic-distance-37-y-chromosome-str-markers-interpreted/) as "deeply anthropological and *dating to the common African heritage of the human race." Based on the parameters of the pervious 98 matches, this would disqualify most, if not all of the Boyd/Wray matches since their genetic distance are all above 6 when comparing 37 markers.

To find valid MRCA probabilities, I dropped my parameters to compare matches who've only tested 12 markers. I found the Boyds and Wrays were 5 genetic distances (https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/y-dna-testing/y-str/two-men-share-surname-genetic-distance-12-y-chromosome-str-markers-interpreted/) and beyond and therefore probably wouldn't qualify for any meaningful interpretations in the last few thousand years.



ySearch Y-DNA matches comparing 12 markers:
http://i.imgur.com/qyypt8m.png
*the Robinson match can be ignored since it's comparing 14 markers instead of 12; I'm not sure why it's still showing when I set the parameters cut-off to 12 markers.


There's only 18 matches with these parameters - the highest of them are an Egyptian, 2 Saudis, and a Sicilian being the highest with 2 genetic distances. The Boyds, Wrays and other matches of Eurasian origin all have a genetic distance of 5 ie. 7/12 matching-markers.


So, according to FTDNA's interpretation (https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/y-dna-testing/y-str/two-men-share-surname-genetic-distance-12-y-chromosome-str-markers-interpreted/), this sums up my A-M13 relation to the Boyds: "A 7/12 match between two people means they are not related within the genealogical time frame. The odds greatly favor that the two men have not shared a common male ancestor within thousands of years."

To try and put things in perspective, the Sicilian is my closest Y-DNA match with 10/12 matching-markers but is considered so distant that FTDNA didn't bother providing it within their range of probability for MRCAs (https://www.familytreedna.com/faq-markers.aspx). If we're to use their 10 of 10 cut-off (at the top of the table (https://www.familytreedna.com/faq-markers.aspx)) as a proxy for 10/12 matching-markers, the MRCA of the Sicilian would be ~2000 ybp, if not more ancient. Although the ~2000 ybp time-frame would fall inline with "black-ethiopian" soldiers used in the Ptolemaic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemaic_Kingdom) and subsequent Roman periods (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt_(Roman_province)) which stretched in the upper-nile region.

For curiosity's sake, I ran the same ySearch parameters with a few Boyd kits and found their African/MENA matches had the same range of matching-markers(10/12) ie. MRCAs of the same ~2000ybp time-period. That would confluence more or less with the Romans in Britain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Britain):

This Boyd's closest African/MENA match would have an MRCA in the same range as the afmd Sicilian:
http://i.imgur.com/E1PYkKe.png

Afshar
05-13-2017, 10:35 PM
I got an Turkish match with hg A pf225 which I believe is equivalent to m13?
Possibly an afro-Turk from the aegean coast?

Angoliga
05-14-2017, 12:03 AM
I got an Turkish match with hg A pf225 which I believe is equivalent to m13?
Possibly an afro-Turk from the aegean coast?

You're Correct, SNP PF225 is A-M13

What kind of match was he - autosmal, mtdna?

What a coincidence you just posted, I'm actually in the midst of replying an email to one of the infamous Boyds - I'm trying to get one of them to take the yfull test. I'll do the same once I get my BAM file.

Another Turkish kit (#176787) on FTDNA's A-hg project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Haplogroup_A/default.aspx?section=yresults) has their haplogroup solely indicated as "A-M13". One of this kit's closest match is a Kazakh (#220522). There's also a Cyprus (#ADCFW) and Turkish (#9F574) kit on ysearch's database that match 37/37 STR markers.

*It's interesting to note, judging by the genetic distance and steps between the two afmd Turkish kits from ysearch.org and FTDNA, they could only be anciently related -- the two differ by several steps on markers DYS389ii and DYS390. The two could've made an appearance in different periods, one perhaps during the Ottoman era the other perhaps in more ancient times.



Herodotus and co. have a few theories relating to the origin of African populations found among the ancient Scythian and Colchians in the Black Sea region:



Herodotus (d.484 BC):
"For the people of Colchis are evidently Egyptian, and this I perceived for myself before I heard it from others. So when I had come to consider the matter I asked them both; and the Colchians had remembrance of the Egyptians more than the Egyptians of the Colchians; but the Egyptians said they believed that the Colchians were a portion of the army of Sesostris. That this was so I conjectured myself not only because they are dark-skinned and have curly hair (this of itself amounts to nothing, for there are other races which are so), but also still more because the Colchians, Egyptians, and Ethiopians alone of all the races of men have practised circumcision from the first. "

Diodorus (b. 90BC):
"...as well as the tribes of the Scythians as far as the river Tanaïs, which divides Europe from Asia; and it was at this time, they say, that some of the Egyptians, having been left behind near the Lake Maeotis, founded the nation of the Colchi.37 5 And the proof which they offer of the Egyptian origin of this nation is the fact that the Colchi practise circumcision even as the Egyptians do, the custom continuing among the colonists sent out from Egypt as it also did in the case of the Jews."

Strabo (b. 63/64 BC)
"Their linen industry has been famed far and wide; for they used to export linen to outside places; and some writers, wishing to show forth a kinship between the Colchians and the Egyptians, confirm their belief by this."

Pliny the Elder (b. 23 AD):
"The Colchians were governed by their own kings in the earliest ages, that Sesostris king of Egypt was overcome in Scythia, and put to fight, by the king of Colchis, which if true, that the Colchians not only had kings in those times, but were a very powerful people."

Afshar
05-14-2017, 06:07 AM
It is an autosomal match. I assume he did a BigY because of his terminal SNP. I have contacted the person.

A Norfolk L-M20
05-14-2017, 10:12 AM
I'm very much enjoying this discussion. I can certainly see similarities between this, and my own Y story. I initially suspected that my Y hg L arrived here in Southern Britain during the medieval. It has so far turned up in two surname families in Southern England. At first I thought that it would have to be more widespread if it was older than medieval, but I am increasingly attracted by the idea that it could date back to Roman Britain. I just have to hope that more turn up. L-SK1414 have been found in a Lebanese Druze, although not as close a match to mine as from an Iranian tester.

Afshar
05-14-2017, 11:55 AM
It is an autosomal match. I assume he did a BigY because of his terminal SNP. I have contacted the person.

The person is Kurdish and from central Turkey.

Afshar
05-15-2017, 10:02 AM
Its a transfer from NatGeo hence the terminal snp, so no BigY done for this one.

AnthroSurvey
06-12-2017, 11:04 AM
I don't know why nobody thought to state the obvious and resorted to romantic Hollywood scenarios instead. It could just be a relic of the hypothesized OOA migration, a haplogroup that got mixed in with the migrants who populated Eurasia. Alternatively, it could be something Basal Eurasians picked up later on via minor SSA admixture(assuming BE were localized to Arabian peninsula or thereabout) and it got transmitted to EEF. Given its island location/small population size and the consequent potential for bottleneck scenarios, it's easy to see why it managed to attain such "high" levels in Sardinia(known for EEF ancestry).

Why is the Roman period always scapegoated? 😅

Angoliga
06-17-2017, 08:45 PM
I don't know why nobody thought to state the obvious and resorted to romantic Hollywood scenarios instead. It could just be a relic of the hypothesized OOA migration, a haplogroup that got mixed in with the migrants who populated Eurasia. Alternatively, it could be something Basal Eurasians picked up later on via minor SSA admixture(assuming BE were localized to Arabian peninsula or thereabout) and it got transmitted to EEF. Given its island location/small population size and the consequent potential for bottleneck scenarios, it's easy to see why it managed to attain such "high" levels in Sardinia(known for EEF ancestry).

Why is the Roman period always scapegoated? 

I know zilch about the peopling of Sardinia but I found this source from a wikipedia search helpful:


"Sardinia was first colonized in a stable manner during the Upper Paleolithic and the Mesolithic by people from the Iberian and/or the Italian peninsula. During the Neolithic period and the Early Eneolithic, people from Italy, Spain and the Aegean area settled in Sardinia."(Brigaglia, 2006 (http://eprints.uniss.it/5006/1/Brigaglia_M_Storia_della_Sardegna_1.pdf))


- maybe that explains the few detected A-M13s in the Aegean region of Turkey, this paper cites others in small numbers (<2%) across Madeira and C/S Portugal (Francalacci, 2008 (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/40027804_History_and_geography_of_human_Y-chromosome_in_Europe_A_SNP_perspective))



Was this what you were referring to regarding Sardinians "high" levels of EEF ancestry -- this paper is appropriately titled “Genomic Evidence Establishes Anatolia as the Source of the European Neolithic Gene Pool” (Omrak, 2015 (http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(15)01516-X)) This might explain a long game of hopscotch with A-M13 first migrating into SW Asia, then the Aegean Region before spreading throughout the Mediterranean and elsewhere in Europe:


“Genetic data from Neolithic Anatolia link European Neolithization to Anatolia and indicate a vivid area of communication from Western Asia into Europe. Later admixture events in Anatolia have made people from southern Europe, and especially Sardinia, the best living representatives of Neolithic populations in Anatolia.”




I agree with your statement earlier -- A & B lineages are the oldest in humanity yet many are quick to forcibly associate a detection in Eurasia to events within or after the Roman period – *that's not to say there’s no valid cases on many occasion. This actually *might be the case for a Sicilian in the A Haplogroup project, he's the closest related in terms of genetic distance out of over 50 kits from +20 countries- even more so than other Sudanese. Our project admin has been MIA for months so I haven't been able to contact him for a big Y.


If we're going to narrow-down an introgression period for the Sardinian, let’s have a look at formation and TMRCA dates on A-M13's Ytree (https://www.yfull.com/tree/A-M13/):

http://i.imgur.com/oKjHEhp.png

Although A-M13s formation date is 45,200ybp, the TMRCA for all current members is 10,500ybp – that includes the Sardinians, South-Sudanese, Saudis and a Ugandan nilote :wave:

Since these particular Yfull Sardinian A-M13s are given a 10,500ybp TMRCA, I’d favour the Neolithic period over the Upper-Paleothic for their arrival into Sardinia – it would allot A-M13 more time to reach the Aegean region after the initial LGM period *that's just a guess:

The initial spread of A-M13 is associated with the beginning of the LGM (aka Neolithic Supluvial/Green Sahara phase) around 10.000 ybp across the Sahel belt and into the Central Sahara. Given the vast amount (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10115-A-M13-%96-GD-Comparison-using-the-Y-DNA-Comparison-Utility-(*53-kits-20-Countries)) of divergent lineages in the Middle-East (Qatar, Kuwait, Saudi-Arabia, Bahrain), it’s also possible that A-M13 spread into SW-Asia following the LGM -- I guess that's what you were referring to regarding possible SSA admixture of BEs in Arabian peninsula region.


*Some of these SW-Asian A-M13s could also be vestiges of the Roman period or the East-African Arab Slave Trade; we won’t have any certainty until East Africa is better surveyed.

Inigo Montoya
06-19-2017, 08:52 PM
inb4 Proof that Ancient Sardinians spoke a Nilo-Saharan language !!!1!

Seriously, that was an informative post on a topic that deserves more "love".

Angoliga
07-11-2017, 12:00 AM
How ironic, the Ballynahatty remains from the Irish Neolithic has it's closest haplotype-based affinity with modern day Sardinians (and Spaniards):


Unsurprisingly, the pattern of haplotypic affinity of Ballynahatty among modern European populations is strongly correlated to that of the earlier Neolithic samples (SI Appendix, Fig. S14.2; r > 0.74, P < 10−7), with southern Mediterranean samples in each analysis showing highest levels of chunk copying. However, some differences are discernable; the Hungarian and Stuttgart Neolithic genomes tend toward higher values in eastern Mediterranean (Sicilian, Italian, and Greek samples; Fig. 3 and SI Appendix, Fig. S14.1), and the Irish Neolithic has highest values in the west (Sardinian and Spanish). Cassidy, 2015 (http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368.full)




http://i.imgur.com/1wmjr07.png
Fig 3) Heatmap - Ballynahatty's haplotype-based affinity to modern populations



Could the likely period of introgression for A-M13 into the British Isles date as far as the neolithic?

I'm skeptical that's the case -- despite A-M13 being spread in different families across the U.K. (Boyd/Wray(*Rhea)/Taylor), when comparing their STR markers (37) their genetic distance doesn't suggest an MRCA as far back as the Neolithic.



From a 37 STR marker comparison, all the Scottish, Irish and English lineages have a genetic distance of 5 (*at the most):

Y-Utility: Y-DNA Comparison Utility (http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html)- kits taken from FTDNA's A-Haplogroup Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Haplogroup_A/default.aspx?section=yresults):


http://i.imgur.com/QvCVriC.png
(more A-M13 STR comparisons from 53+ countries here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10115-A-M13-%96-GD-Comparison-using-the-Y-DNA-Comparison-Utility-(*53-kits-20-Countries)) - unfortunately no Sardinians or other Western Mediterraneans)



With a 30yr per gen estimate, these lineages would all be related within 840 years -- The actualy TMRCA could be more or a lot less of course; this is a very limited comparison :
http://imgur.com/nka15pD.png


SNP tests with comparisons through an NGS provider would of course be most ideal for TMRCA estimates but I think this is more than enough to demonstrate their MRCA didn't date as far back as the Neolithic.

None of these U.K. A-M13s are on the Ytree but based on a BigY SNP comparison, this (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10543-Big-Y-Results-Inferring-Most-Recently-Shared-SNP-Haplogroup-before-Yfull-submission&p=232994&viewfull=1#post232994)might be enough to suggest they're at least within the same common A-PH804 haplogroup as the Sardinians (formed 10400 ybp).




It sounds elaborate but perhaps the shipwrecked (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Armada_in_Ireland)Spanish Armada NPE is the most parsimonious theory.


Here's what one of the Wray's mentioned some years ago on an A-hg 23andme thread:



It seems likely to me that the NPE's affecting both the Wray and Boyd lines happened in Yorkshire from Spanish Armada sailors finding their way to different spots around England. Some sailor with Nilotic heritage, arriving no-doubt with Islamic invaders of Spain, found opportunities in Yorkshire to transmit his special Y-Chromosome for our benefit.

...I think I found the NPE in my branch of the Wray family. My 13th great-grandfather, John Wray, was born in Middleham, England, in 1554 and died in 1571. His wife, name unknown, was born in Middleham in 1560 and had her only child (John Wray, born approximately 1585 and died sometime after 1621) at least fourteen years after his father's death. I suspect that the child, John Wray, actually was born in late 1589, allowing Mrs. NPE Wray the opportunity to have one child by a friendly immigrant Spaniard after the destruction of the Spanish Armada.


I wonder if he realized how ancient the Spaniard's "Nilotice heritage" really is -- it's probably as ancient as the Sardinian A-M13s (>10kya) and others detected in Madeira and mainland Portugal, they must have made their way into the Western Mediterranean with other neolithic EEF migrations.


"...arriving no-doubt with Islamic invaders of Spain"

- I also made the mistake of automatically assuming any typically Tropical-African Y-DNA found in the Mediterranean was the result of the Islamic period but so far, based on the genetic distance (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10115-A-M13-%96-GD-Comparison-using-the-Y-DNA-Comparison-Utility-(*53-kits-20-Countries)) and steps (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Haplogroup_A/default.aspx?section=yresults)of A-M13s currently detected in North/Central Africa (Algeria, Tunisia, Chad, Sudan), none could possibly be related to those in the British Isles within a recent ~500yr time frame.

Squad
07-11-2017, 12:00 PM
A-M13 is extremely rare in Morocco and as you move east, it roses in frequency to reach something like 0.5% in Tunisia. Given the extent of its rarity in Morocco, one should rather dump the moorish scenario in an attempt to explain its presence in western Europe. It would make much more sense that it arrived from the east, as, while almost completely absent in western Europe and this also includes Portugal and Spain which both shows extremely reduced levels, it becomes relatively common the more you go eastward. Highest observed frequencies (0.5% to 1%) are in Sardinia, Sicily and Greece. Other places where I remember identifying it include mainland Italy, Ukraine, Poland and Russia. Because we also know it has some presence in western Asia, it is more logical to assume that at least a significant portion of european A-M13 lineages enterred via the aegan sea, after having migrating up there from Egypt and so on. From yfull we also know that sardinian A-M13 and some saudi lines diverged around 9kya but we need samples from other regions to better understand A-M13's history on european soil.

Angoliga
07-30-2017, 04:40 PM
..What a coincidence you just posted, I'm actually in the midst of replying an email to one of the infamous Boyds - I'm trying to get one of them to take the yfull test.


Some good news! I got a reply from one of the Taylor's in the Boyd line (from an email in early May), he's interested in ordering Yfull's analysis -- I just replied him with steps on requesting his BAM file, hopefully he follows through.

I'm also hoping to convince the afmd Cuban A-M13 from 23andme to get FTDNA tested. With a 37-STR test or even a mere 12-STR, it would be neat to see how his Iberian A-M13 lineage compares with those in the UK. A close/0 genetic distance could corroborate with the afmd shipwrecked Spanish Armada (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Armada_in_Ireland) NPE theory ~400ybp.

Looking forward to get some long-awaited closure on this riddle :)

lgmayka
07-30-2017, 09:32 PM
Here is YFull's new A-M13 haplotree (https://yfull.com/tree/A-M13/).

Rethel
07-31-2017, 09:25 AM
Or is this perhaps another instance of Roman soldier DNA?

Why it always has to be a soldier? https://www.helifreak.com/images/smilies/facepalm_smiley.gif


Btw, I rememvber a TV show about YDna which was some 10-15 years ago.
In this programme was tested a guy, who thought he is a Viking (becasue he
was from Northubria, and this some was shoul make hima viking I guess) but
his results were actualy hg A from Africa :)

Btw, since XVII/XVIII century live in England a local
african community, so you can be as well from them.

Without genealogical study and confirmation of the hg
it cannot be said anything about migration path - so if
you do not have it, you should do this at the first place.

Angoliga
08-25-2017, 04:55 AM
Some good news! I got a reply from one of the Taylor's in the Boyd line (from an email in early May), he's interested in ordering Yfull's analysis -- I just replied him with steps on requesting his BAM file, hopefully he follows through.

I'm also hoping to convince the afmd Cuban A-M13 from 23andme to get FTDNA tested. With a 37-STR test or even a mere 12-STR, it would be neat to see how his Iberian A-M13 lineage compares with those in the UK. A close/0 genetic distance could corroborate the afmd shipwrecked Spanish Armada (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Armada_in_Ireland) NPE theory ~400ybp.

Looking forward to get some long-awaited closure on this riddle :)

I've been told the BAM file was finally made available today and the Yfull account has now been registered.

Within the A-M13 Ytree (https://www.yfull.com/tree/A-M13/), my guess is for a tentative A-PH804 placement and perhaps the formation of a separate subclade for the next Ytree release (hoping for this in Ytree ver. 5.06 but 5.07 might be a more realistic time-frame):


http://i.imgur.com/3PIboQZ.png

Angoliga
09-26-2017, 02:02 AM
I've been told the BAM file was finally made available today and the Yfull account has now been registered.

Within the A-M13 Ytree (https://www.yfull.com/tree/A-M13/), my guess is for a tentative A-PH804 placement and perhaps the formation of a separate subclade for the next Ytree release (hoping for this in Ytree ver. 5.06 but 5.07 might be a more realistic time-frame):


http://i.imgur.com/3PIboQZ.png



... et voilà, A-PH804* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/A-M13/) as expected (Yfull v.5.06):


*he still has yet to update his ID's Country of Origin (YF10832)*

https://i.imgur.com/ozvBP66.png




~10,500 years more or less and you can still see the strong family resemblance :P ; not the same yfull ID but of the same U.K. line -- pic (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12015-Post-a-pic-Meeting-fellow-DNA-matches&p=287499&viewfull=1#post287499) with Eric Boyd (& sister) from the A-haplogroup project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Haplogroup_A/) (#18802):

https://i.imgur.com/u3Syj6L.jpg

Angoliga
10-16-2017, 05:15 PM
Yfull ID Country of Origin updated (https://www.yfull.com/tree/A-M13/):

https://i.imgur.com/GyrMMpl.png

CoolBoy_777
06-01-2018, 10:24 PM
Guys what happens now how can we advance in this topic. M13 has Jews in it and Arabs but very few like 1-5%, mostly Africans that was like more than roughly 6000 years ago.

Jack Johnson
06-06-2018, 05:35 AM
Guys what happens now how can we advance in this topic. M13 has Jews in it and Arabs but very few like 1-5%, mostly Africans that was like more than roughly 6000 years ago.
Y dna haplogroup A is very old, predating the exit of Homo sapiens from Eastern Africa into Eurasia. It is more than likely that these various and incredibly rare subclades found in places such England, Ireland, Scotland, Sardinia, and even Finland, were part of the original gene pool of the first homo saipiens into Eurasia and eventually Europe, along with y dna haplogroups such as C1a, C1b, F, CT, BT, K2a, IJ, and perhaps B; other and/or later upper Paleolithic and early Mesolithic migrations would have brought basal clades of R and Q, and possibly E and P. Some subclades (for there are two different branches of y dna haplogroup A in Europe) may be the result of not just one early migration during the upper paleolithic into Europe, but perhaps as a result of various migrations during both the upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic into Europe, or during the Neolithic through the middle eastern farmers that settled into Europe in various waves.

CoolBoy_777
06-08-2018, 01:34 AM
Thanks for you post. So are you saying that we can not do anything? what is it that we can do to solve this "mystery"?. Will Full Sequence help? if yes? by how much like 2%, 10%, or 50% roughly?

not only in those places you mentioned it's also few Arabs and east Africa like Sudan. England, Ireland, Scotland, Sardinia, and even Finland. one question might solve all of this. The age of the 1st man in each of those places. I mean the 1st man that set in those places it can't be M-13. M-13 is the father of all of these guys 45,000 years. A-PH804 (link) -formed 9800 ybp, TMRCA 9800 ybpinfo - We have Scotland, KSA (kingdom of Saudi Arabia) and Itlay-Cagliari.

No idea what all this means. Also this
A1b1b2b M13/PF1374, M63/PF1079, M127, M202, M219
• • • • • • • A1b1b2b~ L411/PF11, L412, L414, L420, L421, L422, L423, L424, L425, L426, L428, L429, L436/PF962, L437/PF965, L439, L441/PF1287, L442/PF1300, Page53, Page77/PF1364/V10
• • • • • • • • A1b1b2b1 M118
• • • • • • • • A1b1b2b2~ M9462/PF1361/V1, PF1358/V193, PF1362/V156, PF1363/V155, M9531/PF1366/V230, PF1367/V243, PF1368/V194, PF1369/V51, PF1370/V66, PF1371/V56
• • • • • • • • A1b1b2b3~ V89/PF1359, V98
• • • A1c~ V67
[link]

CoolBoy_777
09-07-2018, 01:29 AM
The Puzzle is still not solved. I read this article which is posted in this thread. I found that there is a wider DNA test to find your ethnicity. how can do that?

spruithean
09-07-2018, 01:42 AM
The Puzzle is still not solved. I read this article which is posted in this thread. I found that there is a wider DNA test to find your ethnicity. how can do that?

To find your "ethnicity" you take an autosomal DNA test with 23andMe, LivingDNA, AncestryDNA, FamilyTreeDNA, and a ton of other companies. However keep in mind ethnicity estimations are not exactly accurate and DNA does not respect borders so well and you will find large similarities between populations on either side of a certain border.

Dray
07-19-2020, 02:01 AM
My Last name is Ray and I just received my 23 and me results today. I am 99.4 European with the paper trail of my lineage on both sides leading back to the British isles. I surprised I am with the results that my paternal haplogroup is A1b1-M118. I find it fascinating that others with surnames similar to mine have the same result.
hope to learn more about the mystery.
Dave

LaurieF
12-30-2020, 03:36 AM
G'day Dave. I'm in a very similar situation to you. 23 and me assigned me to A-M118 when I tested with them. This was very surprising as I was born in N England, and my family background is, as far as I know, essentially Anglo-Irish. I've since tested at FTDNA, who assigned me to the A-M32 subclade. I've just initiated a Big Y test with the same company. Hopefully this will give some more information. I've now joined the "A" project, kit B525382. As far as I can see, I don't really get anywhere close to matching anyone there; the Sicilian guy is probably closest, but still quite remote.

ShpataEMadhe
01-16-2021, 02:44 PM
I don't think enough testing has been done in Africa to find potential strong matches, most dna testing has been done in europe

Some history -

"Bristol's entry into the slave trade The Royal African Company, a London-based trading company, had control over all trade between countries in Britain and Africa from 1672 to 1698. At this time, only ships owned by the Royal African Company could trade for anything, including slaves."

You know the history in 18th century and there is also this -

"In the latter half of the 18th century England had a Black population of around 15,000 people. They lived mostly in major port cities - London, Liverpool and Bristol - but also in market towns and villages across the country. The majority worked in domestic service, both paid and unpaid."

Angoliga
01-27-2021, 06:15 PM
I don't think enough testing has been done in Africa to find potential strong matches, most dna testing has been done in europe

Some history -

"Bristol's entry into the slave trade The Royal African Company, a London-based trading company, had control over all trade between countries in Britain and Africa from 1672 to 1698. At this time, only ships owned by the Royal African Company could trade for anything, including slaves."

You know the history in 18th century and there is also this -

"In the latter half of the 18th century England had a Black population of around 15,000 people. They lived mostly in major port cities - London, Liverpool and Bristol - but also in market towns and villages across the country. The majority worked in domestic service, both paid and unpaid."

More data is definitely needed but I think we can safely rule out the higher probability for a "slave trade connection" especially since the deepest paper-trails for this A-M13 cluster, as per the A-haplogroup project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Haplogroup_A?iframe=yresults), are concentrated in northern regions, Scotland and Ireland, rather than English port cities (Liverpool, Bristol, London).

Their connections with Northern-Ireland/Scotland and colonial Virginia/South-Carolina seems to overlap early 17th-century emigration of Protestant Presbyterian Scots from the Plantation of Ulster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantation_of_Ulster) to these commonly known Ulster Scot settlements in the new-world thereafter.

Since Ulster Scots (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Scots_people) were mostly from lowland Scotland, including Highlanders to a lesser extent, and the Scottish Borders adjacent to Northern England, it might explain why the deepest paper-trails are Scottish Boyds and the runoff English Wray lineage from Middleham (North Yorkshire). Alternatively, the NPE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-paternity_event) could've transpired somewhere around Northern Ireland where most shipwrecks of the Spanish Armada took place, making the deepest paper-trails to lowland Scottish/N.English progenitors erroneous.


Interestingly, the failed Spanish Armada had more shipwrecks in these northern regions (Ireland/Scotland) than the English Channel itself where most naval battles were fought:

https://i.imgur.com/2aJA3n4.png
This might favour what the North Yorkshire Wray suggested years back on a 23andMe forum relating to a Spanish-Armada NPE connection. It seems somewhat plausible since Iberian/West-Mediterraneans have been detected with minor A Y-DNA ~<1% in Madeira and Central/Southern Portugal (Goncalves et al, 2006):

https://i.imgur.com/Sm3dNHn.png


The Scottish "Taylor" on Yfull's A-M13 tree (https://www.yfull.com/tree/A-M13/), whose STRs place him in the Boyd/Wray cluster (id:N80831 [FTDNA - A-project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Haplogroup_A?iframe=yresults)]), falls within the A-Y30506 subclade:

https://i.imgur.com/aqzcNFv.png
The A-Y30506 subclade has a closer relation to the NW-African/West-Mediterranean Moroccan and Sardinian samples than the core Nilo-Saharan A-Y26839 subclade detected in Chad, Uganda, Kenya, and South-Sudan where A-M13 can peak over >60% among certain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_A_(Y-DNA)#Africa) NS pops. Although the Scottish/Moroccan TMRCA (A-BY16213 - 5400 ybp) is too ancient for a direct ~16th century Spanish Armada connection, maybe the overall A-Y30506 subclade grouping of the Moroccan and Sardinian gives credence to an overall Iberian/West-Med theme.

The "missing link" might be an Iberian/West-Mediterranean related A-M13 (A-Y30506), perhaps more easily detected among modern Spanish/Portuguese islander populations (Madeira, Balearic archipelago ...) who should typically, AFAIK (*please correct if mistaken), have more genetic continuity with neolithic pops as commonly noted with modern Sardinians. These minor Nilo-Saharan related signals would be ancient echoes of neolithic NW-African/Berber ancestry, ultimately derived from westward expanding Nilo-Saharan speakers rich in A-M13: these events would've followed the onset of the Neolithic-Subpluvial (https://handwiki.org/wiki/Earth:Neolithic_Subpluvial) (Green-Sahara ~<8000 BCE)


Looking forward to the day we finally get some definitive closure on the topic, I've lost a lot sleep over the years

Jack Johnson
02-02-2021, 07:15 AM
How would this play into the Iberomaurusians? Would this Y-DNA haplogroup A be from their Sahel/ANA related ancestry per Chad Rolfsen’s African phylogeny charts?

capsian
02-02-2021, 11:37 AM
How would this play into the Iberomaurusians? Would this Y-DNA haplogroup A be from their Sahel/ANA related ancestry per Chad Rolfsen’s African phylogeny charts?

Iberomaurusians are PreE-M78* and Maybe E-L19

alchemist223
02-02-2021, 10:20 PM
One interesting thing I have noticed is that the distribution of A-Y30506 and its subclades (https://www.yfull.com/tree/A-Y30506/)resembles that of R-V88.

capsian
02-04-2021, 05:46 PM
One interesting thing I have noticed is that the distribution of A-Y30506 and its subclades (https://www.yfull.com/tree/A-Y30506/)resembles that of R-V88.

Hi do you have any infromatoin about sample ERS2065729 in any region found in morocco

lana6765
02-04-2021, 07:17 PM
A-M13 is ancient, going by YFULL it has following:
formed 45000 ybp, TMRCA 10500 ybp

https://yfull.com/tree/A-M13/

Ideally some sort of BigY/FGC sequencing of the Y-Chromosome might give a better idea of how divergent your A-M13 lineage is from other A-M13 men who've done testing.

Even in an African context Haplogroup A isn't the most common of lineages:

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k178/argiedude/Africay-dna-allstudiescombined7000s.gif

It's highest presence appears to be in Southern/Eastern Africa.
https://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/na-5.jpg

If it's a case of more recent admixture into your lineage, it's possible that something would show up on an autosomnal test such as AncestryDNA of FamilyFinder from FTDNA. If you didn't show any African components on those tests I'd imagine it pushes any chance of admixture back to well before 200 years ago.

I’m hardly an expert on Y-DNA, but since you mention East Africa, it might have something to do with colonial seamen known as lascars.

Most of the seamen were Asian, but apparently some were from East Africa. Some Asian seamen definitely settled in or had children in England. Maybe it’s possible some African seamen did the same?

lana6765
02-04-2021, 07:36 PM
Here’s a link:
https://www.rmg.co.uk/discover/researchers/research-guides/research-guide-finding-black-and-asian-sailors

These lists, which can be searched online, contain the names of over 750,000 sailors from around the world. This includes men from places that are now part of Egypt, Somalia, Tanzania, Iran, Yemen, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and China.

ShpataEMadhe
02-06-2021, 04:14 PM
"The key ports for British companies trafficking Africans across the Atlantic were Bristol, Liverpool, Glasgow and London."

There is a strong amount of A-M13 in South Africa, not just East - likeliest movement from South through the Atlantic Sea instead of Mediterranean

Angoliga
03-10-2021, 09:21 AM
... There is a strong amount of A-M13 in South Africa, not just East - likeliest movement from South through the Atlantic Sea instead of Mediterranean

The elevated A-hg detection typically found in South-African Khoisan/Bushmen pops (A1b1a1a, A1b1b2a) is not A1b1b2b-M13; these are entirely separate anciently-related subclades within the broader A1b1 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/A1b1/) haplogroup.

Based on currently available SNP data, the Scottish and now newly added English A-M13s fall within W-Mediterranean (Moroccan/Sardinian) related A-M13 subclades (A-BY16213 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/A-BY16213/), A-FGC60376* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/A-FGC60376*/)):

https://i.imgur.com/mj54bgF.png


More data will be needed to validate the Wray's suggestion for any "Spanish Armada" connection but the overall W-Mediterranean relation seems most probable at the moment.


- not exactly conclusive evidence for the Armada-theory here but these historical accounts from Spanish Sea Captain survivor Francisco de Cuéllar (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_de_Cuellar) in Scotland might be illuminating. Evidently, some Irish Lords and Catholic clergymen aided shipwrecked Spaniards from the northern coasts of Ireland, to seek refuge in Scotland - the Kingdom of Ireland was still under rule of the English monarchy at the time. Reports here from surviving Spanish Sea Captain Cuéllar mentions there being hundreds of shipwrecked survivors in-and-around Edinburgh awaiting voyage across the sea to allied Flanders territory:

https://i.imgur.com/OxBqKJ1.png

- The Downfall of the Spanish Armada in Ireland: The Grand Armada Lost on the Irish Coast in 1588 (Ken Douglas 2009)


The hostile treatment of shipwrecked Spanairds by the general Scotish Protestant population compared to sympathizing Catholic Scotish noble families, who harboured Spanish survivors, might play into claims from some A-M13 Boyds having their name derived from the Royal House of Stewart.

From a recent correspondence with our very own English A-M13 forum member, LaurieF, he pointed out that northern England had a higher concentration of Catholic sympathizers which may have still been resonating from earlier 16th-century rebellious counter-reformist periods (The Pilgrim of Grace (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilgrimage_of_Grace)) -- could this explain the more northern concentration of A-M13s within England, with stray Spanish-Armada survivors, more likely finding shelter here than the more heavily Protestant south?





One interesting thing I have noticed is that the distribution of A-Y30506 and its subclades (https://www.yfull.com/tree/A-Y30506/)resembles that of R-V88.

Keen observation!

According to this Green Sahara paper, both R-V88 and A-M13 Sardinian subclades appear to be relics of ancient trans-Mediterranean contact which were erased after subsequent periods of reoccurring waves of migrations:




"Outside Africa, both A3-M13 and R-V88 harbour sub-lineages geographically restricted to the island of Sardinia and both seem to indicate ancient trans-Mediterranean contacts. The phylogeography of A3-M13 suggests that the direction of the movement was from Africa to Sardinia, while R-V88 topology indicates a Europe-to-Africa migration. Indeed, our data suggest a European origin of R-V88 about 12.3 kya, considering both the presence of two Sardinian R-V88 basal clades (R-M18 and R-V35) and that the V88 marker arose in the R-M343 background, which in turn includes Near-Eastern/European lineages [52]. It is worth noting that the arrival of R-V88 in the Sahara seems to have occurred between 8.67 and 7.85 kya (considering as an upper limit the time estimates of the last node including a European-specific lineage, while the lower limit is the coalescence age of all the African-specific lineages), refining the time frame of the trans-Saharan migration proposed in previous studies [37, 56]. The route of R-V88 toward the lake Chad basin probably passed through northeastern Africa rather than Arabia, considering the absence of R-V88 in the Horn of Africa. Interestingly, both A3-M13 and R-V88 European sub-clades coalesced in ancient times (> 7.62 kya for A3-M13/V2742 and between 12.34 and 8.67 kya for R-V88/M18 and R-V88/V35) (Additional file 2: Figures S2 and S5). So it is possible that both clades were widespread in southern Europe, where they have been replaced by the Y haplogroups brought by the following recurrent migration waves from Asia "[57]


- The peopling of the last Green Sahara revealed by high-coverage resequencing of trans-Saharan patrilineages", (D’Atanasio et. al, 2018 (https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-018-1393-5))

capsian
03-11-2021, 11:56 PM
The elevated A-hg detection typically found in South-African Khoisan/Bushmen pops (A1b1a1a, A1b1b2a) is not A1b1b2b-M13; these are entirely separate anciently-related subclades within the broader A1b1 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/A1b1/) haplogroup.

Based on currently available SNP data, the Scottish and now newly added English A-M13s fall within W-Mediterranean (Moroccan/Sardinian) related A-M13 subclades (A-BY16213 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/A-BY16213/), A-FGC60376* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/A-FGC60376*/)):

https://i.imgur.com/mj54bgF.png


More data will be needed to validate the Wray's suggestion for any "Spanish Armada" connection but the overall W-Mediterranean relation seems most probable at the moment.


- not exactly conclusive evidence for the Armada-theory here but these historical accounts from Spanish Sea Captain survivor Francisco de Cuéllar (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_de_Cuellar) in Scotland might be illuminating. Evidently, some Irish Lords and Catholic clergymen aided shipwrecked Spaniards from the northern coasts of Ireland, to seek refuge in Scotland - the Kingdom of Ireland was still under rule of the English monarchy at the time. Reports here from surviving Spanish Sea Captain Cuéllar mentions there being hundreds of shipwrecked survivors in-and-around Edinburgh awaiting voyage across the sea to allied Flanders territory:

https://i.imgur.com/OxBqKJ1.png

- The Downfall of the Spanish Armada in Ireland: The Grand Armada Lost on the Irish Coast in 1588 (Ken Douglas 2009)


The hostile treatment of shipwrecked Spanairds by the general Scotish Protestant population compared to sympathizing Catholic Scotish noble families, who harboured Spanish survivors, might play into claims from some A-M13 Boyds having their name derived from the Royal House of Stewart.

From a recent correspondence with our very own English A-M13 forum member, LaurieF, he pointed out that northern England had a higher concentration of Catholic sympathizers which may have still been resonating from earlier 16th-century rebellious counter-reformist periods (The Pilgrim of Grace (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilgrimage_of_Grace)) -- could this explain the more northern concentration of A-M13s within England, with stray Spanish-Armada survivors, more likely finding shelter here than the more heavily Protestant south?






Keen observation!

According to this Green Sahara paper, both R-V88 and A-M13 Sardinian subclades appear to be relics of ancient trans-Mediterranean contact which were erased after subsequent periods of reoccurring waves of migrations:





hello do you have any infromatoin about sample ERS2065729 in any region found in morocco

Angoliga
03-12-2021, 01:31 AM
hello do you have any infromatoin about sample ERS2065729 in any region found in morocco

Hi, ERS2065729 came from a Sous (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sous)Berber sample (S128) in the afmd Green Sahara paper (https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-018-1393-5#Sec21)

capsian
03-12-2021, 10:23 AM
Hi, ERS2065729 came from a Sous (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sous)Berber sample (S128) in the afmd Green Sahara paper (https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-018-1393-5#Sec21)

wow he is from souss
this H.g very rare in souss

Squad
03-17-2021, 01:17 PM
wow he is from souss
this H.g very rare in souss

This haplogroup is rare everywhere in Morocco

Nilotica
05-02-2021, 09:23 AM
I also think the green Sahara explanation is more likely than the Spanish Armada. I'd imagine a lot of intermingling between tribes belonging to the 3 major African ethnolinguistic groups around ancient Mega-lake Chad, before the Sahara desertified. The increasingly arid conditions of the Sahara drove them apart, some Southwesterly (towards Niger/Senegal), others Easterly (towards Nile), and the ancestors of the abovementioned groups moving northwards towards the Mediterranean.

Thus, a group of Afro-Asiatic speaking carriers of A-M13 found themselves in present-day North Africa, and because they no longer had contact with other A-M13+ groups, they slowly got diluted out.