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vineviz
08-07-2012, 09:15 PM
If you are L23+ L51 within R-M269 and don't mind taking a flying leap, there are two new advance a la carte SNPs that are under investigation. The precise placement of Z2103 and Z2105 is not known with certainty, but they appear to define a parallel clade to L51. The relationship with L277 and L584 is uncertain. If you are enterprising,and a FTDNA customer, these will either be very exciting or a complete waste of money.

AJL
08-07-2012, 10:09 PM
I have an L584 cousin, earliest origins Aleppo (al-Halab), Syria. I may be able to get him to test one or both the Z-series, but no promises.

vineviz
08-07-2012, 10:53 PM
I have an L584 cousin, earliest origins Aleppo (al-Halab), Syria. I may be able to get him to test one or both the Z-series, but no promises.
Thanks, AJL. If I had to choose one, I'd go with Z2105.

AJL
08-08-2012, 12:21 AM
Thanks for the tip!

TigerMW
08-08-2012, 09:23 PM
If you are L23+ L51 within R-M269 and don't mind taking a flying leap, there are two new advance a la carte SNPs that are under investigation. The precise placement of Z2103 and Z2105 is not known with certainty, but they appear to define a parallel clade to L51. The relationship with L277 and L584 is uncertain. If you are enterprising,and a FTDNA customer, these will either be very exciting or a complete waste of money.

Wow, this would be great to have peer subclades with L51 to compare with.

vineviz
08-09-2012, 12:24 AM
We had six project members order 1 or both of these new SNPs in this week's batch. With luck, by the end of September we'll have some news.

VV

vineviz
08-09-2012, 10:09 AM
By the way, I need to thank Greg Magoon and Ray Banks for finding these SNPs in the 1000 Genomes data to begin with.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2012-05/1337040189

And thanks to Vince Tilroe for calling them to our attention.

vineviz
08-10-2012, 02:10 AM
So we don't know precisely where Z2103 and Z2105 might fit, but here's roughly where.

27

MJost
08-10-2012, 02:20 AM
[QUOTE=vineviz;391]So we don't know precisely where Z2103 and Z2105 might fit, but here's roughly where.

QUOTE]

VV,

I dont follow much this far from L11, but what will the split percentage be if this holds true?

MJost

vineviz
08-10-2012, 02:27 AM
I dont follow much this far from L11, but what will the split percentage be if this holds true?

We are just launching exploratory testing, so I can't say with any confidence yet.

I will say that among the four L23+ L51- men in the 1000 Genomes data that Ray and Greg sampled, it appears that all four were Z2103+ Z2105+.

VV

vineviz
08-20-2012, 12:19 PM
I will say that among the four L23+ L51- men in the 1000 Genomes data that Ray and Greg sampled, it appears that all four were Z2103+ Z2105+.

Last night we received our results for our first three kits. All three men were Z2105+. Only one of the three tested Z2103, but he was positive for it.

These kits were already L23+ L51-. More results should role in soon.

vineviz
08-20-2012, 02:15 PM
I should also note that we will eventually need a "control" sample (e.g. L51+) to test Z2103 and Z2105. Based on evidence in hand, we are pretty sure L51+ men will be Z2103- and Z2105+ but we may need someone to pony up $58 before we know for sure.

VV

David
08-20-2012, 07:27 PM
I should also note that we will eventually need a "control" sample (e.g. L51+) to test Z2103 and Z2105. Based on evidence in hand, we are pretty sure L51+ men will be Z2103- and Z2105+ but we may need someone to pony up $58 before we know for sure.

VV
Vince, did you mean "L51+ men will be Z2103- and Z2105-"?

--david

vineviz
08-23-2012, 04:13 AM
Vince, did you mean "L51+ men will be Z2103- and Z2105-"?

--david
Yes, sorry that's what I meant. Thanks for catching.

We got some new results today. So far, our L23+ L51- men are 8/8 Z2105+ (not all tested Z2103, but those who did were positive also). This includes one L277+ man, so L277 is downstream of Z2103 and Z2105.

VV

lgmayka
08-27-2012, 02:22 PM
I should also note that we will eventually need a "control" sample (e.g. L51+) to test Z2103 and Z2105.
We need that in order to place Z2105 (at least) on ISOGG's haplotree.

David
08-27-2012, 05:53 PM
We need that in order to place Z2105 (at least) on ISOGG's haplotree.
From Finch2:


Sample
Marker
Allele


GRC000001
Z2105
C-


GRC000001
Z2103
G-


GRC000001
L51
A+


GRC000001
L21
G+

Lappa
08-27-2012, 10:11 PM
If you are L23+ L51 within R-M269 and don't mind taking a flying leap, there are two new advance a la carte SNPs that are under investigation. The precise placement of Z2103 and Z2105 is not known with certainty, but they appear to define a parallel clade to L51. ...

Hello!
Do you plan to add new cathegory in R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new) Y-Results list?
( L23+ Z2103+ Z2105+ )

vineviz
09-03-2012, 05:54 PM
Hello!
Do you plan to add new cathegory in R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new) Y-Results list?
( L23+ Z2103+ Z2105+ )

Yes, certainly.

Tomcat
03-25-2013, 09:11 PM
L23+ and L51-, ordered the Z's.

Tomcat
03-27-2013, 03:05 PM
Added L277 and L584.

Tomcat
04-14-2013, 10:58 PM
L277+
L584-
Z2103+
Z2105+

TigerMW
06-20-2013, 12:29 PM
What has the progress been on these SNPs? I don't have access to the R1b ht35 project orders but hopefully more people are ordering these?

Are Z2103 and Z2105 in Adriano S's 23andME summary spreadsheet?

Rathna
06-20-2013, 01:43 PM
Are Z2103 and Z2105 in Adriano S's 23andME summary spreadsheet?

I think they don't. There are L277 and L584, but I had to test Z2105 at FTDNA.
They aren't either in Geno 2-0. There is Z2110 for L23 and Z2113 for L51.

R.Rocca
06-20-2013, 05:34 PM
I think they don't. There are L277 and L584, but I had to test Z2105 at FTDNA.
They aren't either in Geno 2-0. There is Z2110 for L23 and Z2113 for L51.

I designed the primers for an SNP that is below Z2103/Z2105 and above Z2110. If the primer works on a real sample, I'll send the details off to FTDNA.

Joe B
06-20-2013, 09:25 PM
What has the progress been on these SNPs? I don't have access to the R1b ht35 project orders but hopefully more people are ordering these?
Besides Z2105 for myself, there may be one more outstanding Z test from Bulgaria in the batch due on the 24th. It seems like Geno2.0 has really slowed testing for Z2103 and Z2105. Very little momentum right now for testing these snps.
One thing we all agree on is the need for more data. Ungrouped predicted M269 DYS393=12 kits may offer us a chance to pick some low hanging fruit to increase the numbers. We have hundreds of ungrouped DYS393=12 kits in various projects and I bet half are Z2103+. A protocal less expensive than Geno2.0 is needed to entice people to snp test. Maybe something like first Z2103, if that is negative, suggest P312 or U106. This would expand the data base and give the customer some solid information too. Something that could easily be promoted on the FTDNA forum and within projects this summer.

P.S. Upgraded to 111str and Tomcat said he did the same.

Joe B
07-02-2013, 06:36 PM
Z2105 came in positive for #257842, not a big surprise. The other test from Bulgaria, that I only saw referred to on a forum, may already be in and I missed it. It was Z2103 for somebody who already tested Z2105+, L277-, L584-.
Mike, If it would be helpful to find these L23/L150 folks in various projects, I'd be happy to help and put them on a spreadsheet.

R.Rocca
07-03-2013, 02:50 AM
Geno 2.0 results now have the following two L23+(xL51) kits sharing PF7580...

Kit no. N10795 Filippo Carnevali, b.c. 1780, Fabriano, Italy
Kit no. 45475 Louis Silver

Unfortunately PF7580 does not have a position in Thomas Krahn's browser, so it impossible to compare it with other samples.

Rathna
07-03-2013, 05:52 AM
Geno 2.0 results now have the following two L23+(xL51) kits sharing PF7580...

Kit no. N10795 Filippo Carnevali, b.c. 1780, Fabriano, Italy
Kit no. 45475 Louis Silver

Unfortunately PF7580 does not have a position in Thomas Krahn's browser, so it impossible to compare it with other samples.

Of course I shall study the matter, but I studied two Carnevalis (ySearch: 63NGX, A2GTM) present in SMGF and I put on ySearch. The Carnevali tested is NS4DB, and these three persons match completely.
This Sardinian SNP shall be studied at large scale, because Silver is R-L23/L584 and with other 4 SNPs downstream, linked to some Middle Easterners thought of Jewish descent, and probably Carnevali hasn't these SNPs. For thinking that this SNP is ancestral to all the R-L23, we should find it in all the others. If Carnevali has the other SNPs of Silver, we should think also to a Jewish descent (The Marche had many Jewish communities) etc etc.
It could be also possible that that of Carnevali is one of the R-L23 lines present in Italy from which derived the Middle Easterner one.
I wasn't certain about the haplogroup, even though I signed them like R-L23, because they have DYS393=12 but DYS461=12, then different from the modal 11, but this probably demonstrates its ancient line and different from other ones.
Then all very interesting but to study carefully.
Certainly that this SNP is marked PF, then Sardinian, then Italian, could be another point for me.

Rathna
07-03-2013, 10:35 AM
Of course the two Carnevalis are the same (one from SMGF and a second a created by me mixing the SMGF (not complete) data and those of FTDNA), and it isn't said that they are all the same. Unfortunately SMGF is out and it would be very useful now.

R.Rocca
07-03-2013, 11:50 AM
Then all very interesting but to study carefully.

I have sent Thomas an email asking for its inclusion in his browser.

Rathna
07-03-2013, 01:53 PM
I have sent Thomas an email asking for its inclusion in his browser.

They have also other mutations: CTS1848+ and PF3449+ (Louis Silver) and F2302+ (Carnevali). We should see their reliability.

RCanevali
07-03-2013, 01:56 PM
Dear Mr. Rathna,

I am NS4SDB, the descendant of Filippo Carnevali of Fabriano, and have just received my Geno 2.0 results. I saw your exchange with Mr. Rocca, and being a complete laymen in matters of genetic analysis, was not sure how to interpret it. I gather that my haplogroup, R-PF7580, is fairly unusual and/or interesting. Any information you or Mr. Rocca can provide that would shed light on this would be much appreciated.

Thank you.

Ralph Canevali

Rathna
07-03-2013, 02:21 PM
Dear Mr. Rathna,

I am NS4SDB, the descendant of Filippo Carnevali of Fabriano, and have just received my Geno 2.0 results. I saw your exchange with Mr. Rocca, and being a complete laymen in matters of genetic analysis, was not sure how to interpret it. I gather that my haplogroup, R-PF7580, is fairly unusual and/or interesting. Any information you or Mr. Rocca can provide that would shed light on this would be much appreciated.

Thank you.

Ralph Canevali

Hi Mr Canevali/Carnevali. I was studying your haplotype already from many years, because I found one Carnevali on SMGF (Sorenson, Mormons) and extracted his data (unfortunately uncomplete) and put them on ySearch (63NGX). When I knew the NS4DB results, I put their values together and created A2GTM for having more data.
First of all you could say if are you who was tested by SMGF or if he is a close relative of yours. Unfortunately SMGF is now out, but "my" Carnevali put his origin at Marischio, Fabriano. You are so close that it could be that you are the same person.
I have spoken about the hypotheses of your origin above. I am the theorist of the Italian Refugium above all of hg. R1b1 and subclade and I hope that the hypothesis that you are a descendant of an Italian R-L23/PF7580 who gave origin to the line which brings to Silver and other Jews will be demonstrated, but for being sure of this we shall make other tests.

RCanevali
07-03-2013, 03:50 PM
Thank you for your quick response. A Goioello Tognoni submitted my data to Y-Search under 63NGX and A2GTM. But the results are mine. Marischio is the particular village in Fabriano where the Carnevali's (original spelling of name) lived.

I understand that this haplotype is found in Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and parts of Central Asia. I wonder some times if I had a Sarmatian, Alan, or Hun in my family tree! In any case, I look forward to following the results of your research.

Best,

Ralph

Rathna
07-03-2013, 04:30 PM
A Goioello Tognoni submitted my data to Y-Search under 63NGX and A2GTM. But the results are mine. Marischio is the particular village in Fabriano where the Carnevali's (original spelling of name) lived.

I understand that this haplotype is found in Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and parts of Central Asia. I wonder some times if I had a Sarmatian, Alan, or Hun in my family tree! In any case, I look forward to following the results of your research.

Best,

Ralph

Of course Gioiello Tognoni am I. About these strange peoples (Sarmatians, Alans, Huns etc.) we'll see in next future. So far your SNP, PF7580, is marked Paolo Francalacci and has been found firstly in Sardinia, Italy, and the unique tested for it are you and Silver, an Ashkenazic Jew, who has only this SNP in common with you and you have other SNPs independently.
Of course that the origin of this haplogroup is in the East is a possibility, but we shall find this SNP also elsewhere, and it is what we are trying to understand with next tests.
My theory, of course, is that the origin is in Italy.

TigerMW
07-03-2013, 08:36 PM
Geno 2.0 results now have the following two L23+(xL51) kits sharing PF7580...

Kit no. N10795 Filippo Carnevali, b.c. 1780, Fabriano, Italy
Kit no. 45475 Louis Silver

Unfortunately PF7580 does not have a position in Thomas Krahn's browser, so it impossible to compare it with other samples.

Rathna or Richard, do we know the Z2103 and Z2105 results on these two?

Rathna
07-03-2013, 11:31 PM
Rathna or Richard, do we know the Z2103 and Z2105 results on these two?
We know that Silver is Z2103/Z2105+ being he a subclade like L584+ (and he has other 4 SNPs, found partially in other people: see the "ht 35 FTDNA Project").
Carnevali hasn't been tested for these ones, but his Geno 2.0 demonstrates he is L23+ L150+, then he is at least Z2103/Z2105+, not having been found anyone L150+ who weren't also Z2103/Z2105+.
The problem are the other SNPs named above. We shall ascertain this by next tests, but no one tested so far has had them, only Silver and Carnevali. For this Rocca signaled that.

Humanist
07-19-2013, 06:01 PM
We know that Silver is Z2103/Z2105+ being he a subclade like L584+ (and he has other 4 SNPs, found partially in other people: see the "ht 35 FTDNA Project").

The SNPs in question are: L943, L944, L945, L946. I have tested three Assyrians, thus far, for L943. Two were derived for the SNP. One was ancestral.

The two L943 Assyrians, and Silver:

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/l943_gd.jpg

Rathna
07-19-2013, 08:01 PM
The SNPs in question are: L943, L944, L945, L946. I have tested three Assyrians, thus far, for L943. Two were derived for the SNP. One was ancestral.

The two L943 Assyrians, and Silver:

Of course it would be interesting to test these two Assyrians for PF7580 either by Geno 2.0 or when this SNPs is at our disposal c/o FTDNA. They should be positive if this SNP is reliable.
About the recent origin of these two Assyrians there are two possibilities: or they are of Jewish descent or the Jew (Silver in this case) descends from someone introgressed in the Jewish pool.
About the ancient origin there are here too two possibilities: either the Italian Carnevali is of Jewish descent (but we should find amongst Jews someone with only this ancestral SNP: we don't know the position of Carnevali as to L584 and less about these four SNPs, given that he is pretty certainly Z2103/Z2105+) or this autonomous line of R-L23 had its origin in Italy. Of course that also Italians (and Sardinians) have come from elsewhere is a possibility, but we'll be able to answer these questions by next tests.
If I remember well Carnevali was tested for 37 markers from FTDNA and for 43 from SMGF, I put together, then we have so far 48 markers. What let me in doubt about his haplogroup was his DYS461=12 and not 11.

Rathna
07-20-2013, 06:31 AM
Louis Silver in Geno 2.0 has other two SNPs as to Carnevali: CTS1848+ and PF3449+, which seem rare and stable, then the separation from Carnevali should be ancient. To clarify this "Sardinian" SNP, i.e. where has been found in Sardinia, whether in another haplogroup or not.

Humanist
07-20-2013, 12:14 PM
Louis Silver in Geno 2.0 has other two SNPs as to Carnevali: CTS1848+ and PF3449+, which seem rare and stable, then the separation from Carnevali should be ancient. To clarify this "Sardinian" SNP, i.e. where has been found in Sardinia, whether in another haplogroup or not.

That is very interesting. Thanks for sharing.