PDA

View Full Version : DF27 is not primarily an "Iberian" subclade



leo76
05-19-2016, 04:00 PM
I'm probably preaching to the choir, I know. Most everyone here already knows that DF27 is found ALL OVER western Europe. But it bothers me a little when I continue to see many folks suggest that DF27 is a properly "Iberian" SNP...either as a result of having originally arisen there, or being mostly concentrated there, or whatever. I see this on many different forums.

I think the original source of this misconception is Eupedia's heatmap of DF27, which isn't actually a heatmap of DF27 at all, per se, but rather of M153, which is of course many SNP levels downstream and therefore not synonymous with DF27. As far as I know this misleading map has never been refined or corrected. The nearly Basque-specific M153 is not the same thing as DF27, even if the relative per-capita "heat" levels are proportional. It's simply misleading.

Whether or not DF27 arose in Iberia or elsewhere on the continent continues to be discussed, I know, and frankly, I'm not too interested in that question. (Though I will admit to being convinced that it arose somewhere in central Europe and not Iberia, so I'm not unbiased.)

To be fair, there does seem to be something of a Northern Europe-to-Iberia split within DF27, but it occurs at a deeper SNP level: at around Z295 or Z270 and below, IIRC. But everything there above is found all the way from the Azores to Sweden.

This SNP map was taken from FTDNA. It shows DF27, Z195/Z196, and Z209/Z220. All of which, of course, are under the DF27 umbrella.

Long story short, DF27 != not "Iberian".

9382

Chad Rohlfsen
05-19-2016, 04:26 PM
You can add a dot by Haderslev, Denmark. I'm FGC17112.

Tolan
05-19-2016, 05:53 PM
Sorry, but DF27 is mainly Iberian, or rather Franco-Cantabrian.
My DF27 maps below is also made from the data FTDNA but in percentage:
http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/R1bsousgroupes.htm
http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/DF27T.png


Your map is skewed by the number of testers wich is very different between the British Isles and Spain /Portugal.
You should put at least 20 times more points on Iberia

ADW_1981
05-19-2016, 06:02 PM
The region where DF27 peaks is not easily accessible by immigrants. Portugal and areas of Spain are offset by levels of J2 which have yet to be explained. Our understanding of the Iberian Neolithic and even Bell Beaker phase need more examination. Based on distributions of U152, DF99, DF19, L238, and even L11(xP312) the most likely bifurcation point is somewhere in Germany in the late Neolithic period.

Heber
05-19-2016, 06:10 PM
The region where DF27 peaks is not easily accessible by immigrants. Portugal and areas of Spain are offset by levels of J2 which have yet to be explained. Our understanding of the Iberian Neolithic and even Bell Beaker phase need more examination. Based on distributions of U152, DF99, DF19, L238, and even L11(xP312) the most likely bifurcation point is somewhere in Germany in the late Neolithic period.

Bifurcation of L11(xP312) perhaps, but not P312. DF21 > L21 > P312 had already reached the Atlantic 4,000+ ybp.

9386

ADW_1981
05-19-2016, 06:32 PM
Bifurcation of L11(xP312) perhaps, but not P312. DF21 > L21 > P312 had already reached the Atlantic 4,000+ ybp.

9386

That map is not consistent with streams down from P312+, such as U152, DF99, L238 among others. On second thought, I think you're reading it wrong.

Webb
05-19-2016, 06:46 PM
Bifurcation of L11(xP312) perhaps, but not P312. DF21 > L21 > P312 had already reached the Atlantic 4,000+ ybp.

9386

This map is based on modern distribution? DF99, DF19, and L238 is completely missing. If these were included it would expand P312 influence further north West towards the headwaters of the Rhine. Were these three left out on purpose? I guess they were, because again they would show a different heat map of P312 in Europe. One that would go against the P312 from the West scenario.

MitchellSince1893
05-19-2016, 07:35 PM
This map is based on modern distribution? DF99, DF19, and L238 is completely missing. If these were included it would expand P312 influence further north West towards the headwaters of the Rhine. Were these three left out on purpose? I guess they were, because again they would show a different heat map of P312 in Europe. One that would go against the P312 from the West scenario.

From the latest BigTree http://www.ytree.net/


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/7d/bc/45/7dbc45cb0b335ed522c0bc5b2ed71083.png

Heber
05-19-2016, 07:51 PM
From the latest BigTree http://www.ytree.net/


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/7d/bc/45/7dbc45cb0b335ed522c0bc5b2ed71083.png

ZZ11: DF27, U152
9388
L21
9389
P312
9390
If you have heat maps for the minor branches please publish them.

razyn
05-19-2016, 07:56 PM
If you have evidence that "heat" correlates with phylogenetic origin, please publish it.

Gravetto-Danubian
05-19-2016, 11:05 PM
Where are those less commonly known lineages (l238, Y18209, A9063) mostly found today ?

Webb
05-19-2016, 11:29 PM
Where are those less commonly known lineages (l238, Y18209, A9063) mostly found today ?

L238 is mostly Scandinavia and Britain, however, there is a single Polish sample that splits from the rest very early. DF99 is almost German abd British, neck for neck. DF19 seems to be Britain and around the Rhine Delta. One of the others is almost exclusively Scottish. So now there is an upstream mutation linking DF99, U152, and DF27. The two most southerly and one of the most northerly Clades. Hence my stance that we are sniffing around the wrong place.

eastara
05-19-2016, 11:41 PM
R1b->DF27->Z225 was just found after R1b Deep clade test in a Bulgarian with origin from Central Bulgaria. I know of another Bulgarian DF27 from 23andMe.
I think DF27 was found also among Armenians in Anatolia.
However DF27 in that area could have a more recent explanation with the Catalan company - Iberian mercenaries active on the Balkan and Anatolia in 14th century. They even grabbed the power in some of the crusader states in Greece.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Company

ADW_1981
05-20-2016, 12:57 AM
R1b->DF27->Z225 was just found after R1b Deep clade test in a Bulgarian with origin from Central Bulgaria. I know of another Bulgarian DF27 from 23andMe.
I think DF27 was found also among Armenians in Anatolia.
However DF27 in that area could have a more recent explanation with the Catalan company - Iberian mercenaries active on the Balkan and Anatolia in 14th century. They even grabbed the power in some of the crusader states in Greece.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Company

The TMRCA of the Armenian branch (amongst themselves) is older than 1400 AD. I'm not sure about the one off Bulgarians. It's difficult to say which Y lineages were in the Balkans before recent history when many men are within a cluster that dates to only 2200 ybp. Moreover, the lineages who allegedly spread farming are hardly present at all.

EastAnglian
05-20-2016, 08:09 AM
What's the difference in age between ZZ11 and DF27?. What's the hotspot for ZZ11?, anyone know?

can't_lurk_no_mo'
05-20-2016, 11:14 AM
If you have evidence that "heat" correlates with phylogenetic origin, please publish it.

The thread starter stated he didn't care about the origin of DF27. He was asking about the current frequencies of DF27 across the landscape, so the heat-maps are a good way to answer his question.

Webb
05-20-2016, 11:18 AM
What's the difference in age between ZZ11 and DF27?. What's the hotspot for ZZ11?, anyone know?

I suppose the combined distribution of U152 and DF27 would be the hot spot where the two overlap? So far it is not found Independantly. Everyone who is DF27 and U152 have it. Keep in mind that one of the Bell Beaker finds in Germany tested positive for U152. I think this is the oldest P312 sample discovered yet. I believe older than the Rathlin samples.

razyn
05-20-2016, 11:36 AM
The thread starter stated he didn't care about the origin of DF27. He was asking about the current frequencies of DF27 across the landscape, so the heat-maps are a good way to answer his question.
Well, he specifically said
I think the original source of this misconception is Eupedia's heatmap of DF27, so I disagree that heat-maps are a logical way to resolve a problem they have largely caused.

But I was in fact responding to the post immediately prior to (and above) mine. And that was Heber's, based on revisions of heat-maps by Tolan. If people generally would limit their discussions of heat-maps to the data they are displaying, I wouldn't be troubled by them. They do illustrate something, but it isn't something about the origins of those haplogroups. They show high percentages, in the present male population, of some fraction of the (larger, broader, and in much of Eurasia still untested and unknown) ancient haplogroups named in the map captions.

R.Rocca
05-20-2016, 01:20 PM
I think it has been pretty obvious for some time that...

1. The highest frequency of DF27 is in Iberia and SW France... this is irrefutable!
2. Just because DF27 is most frequent in Iberia and SW France, it does not mean that it originated there.
3. Just because DF27 may have expanded heavily into and out of Iberia very early on, it does not mean that none or all of its subclades were born there.

A.D.
05-20-2016, 03:35 PM
I've looked at DF27 in Iberia (present) heat maps and maps showing ancient activities,(Neolithic/copper/Bronze/Iron age) mines to agriculture anything that would attract settlement. As far as I can tell there are 2 hot spots for DF27, the Basque region and around Albacete. As far as DF27 in the Basque region goes that seems complicated and I'll leave that alone but the Albacete region doesn't seem to have any thing that stands out I've seen some photos that remind me of Dartmoor in England famous for its ponies maybe horse breeding. I did notice one thing both places have some exceedingly difficult places to get too the Jucar river valley renowned for its deep gorges and woodland and a lot of places in the Basque region. I was wondering if DF27 moved into these places to get away from Carthaginian/Iberian/Roman etc invaders and in effect creating quite 'closed' populations that later expanded. I am assuming that DF27 is old and probably arrived in Iberia between 3,000 and 1,500 BC.

Wiborg
05-21-2016, 08:46 PM
I´m sorry but i believe that these whole "heat maps" - no matter where they come from - are unrepresentative and pretty useless.
Why? Well for example in Germany DNA-tests are quite unknown and unpopular.

How many germans from the 80 million that life in germany made a DNA-test? Anybody knows the exact numbers? i don´t. Let´s just say a number...maybe 250.000 (maybe only 25.000 who knows).
From that generous estimate 250.000 testers are how many from North-, West-, East, Southgermany?
How many testers from Southgermany are from Bavaria or Baden-Wurttemberg?
How many testers from Bavaria are from Lower Franconia, Middle Franconia, Upper Franconia, Upper Palatinate, Swabia, Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria?
How many testers from Middle Franconia are from the City Würzburg?
Ok, i just a number now...5 People!

But how many from this 5 people are really originally from Würzburg?
How many from this 5 people that are originally (born in this City) from Würzburg can traced back their family tree on paper at least for 8-10 generations in this City?

I can not say an exact number but in my estimation i would say 1! This is not representative for a whole area!

The whole system with the heat maps don´t work because they are not scientifically be performed.

Wiborg
05-21-2016, 08:47 PM
However if you want to make a heat map that is representative you need a very good system, a lot of voluntary, a lot of time and much money.
Only unadulterated the finds of ancient DNA are able to show us a trace.

razyn
05-21-2016, 09:23 PM
How many testers from Southgermany are from Bavaria or Baden-Wurttemberg?

I don't know, but on a slight tangent to what you are discussing here, I thought I should mention that the Germanna "second colony" group (to Virginia in 1717) was mostly from that part of Germany, and they have a DNA project at FTDNA. I descend from several of those families, but on a maternal line, so I can't help with YDNA from there. Anyway if you'd like information about the colonists from Gemmingen, Schwaigern, Stetten, Botenheim, etc. I could send you some links. Some of them are probably in the Germanna DNA project; but that also includes earlier and later colonists, so it's a bit of a task to figure out which ones came from where. Also, in America their surnames almost always are spelled in odd ways that you might not recognize. You already know my email address, let me know if this is of any interest.

I have this book: 9423

MitchellSince1893
05-21-2016, 10:15 PM
I´m sorry but i believe that these whole "heat maps" - no matter where they come from - are unrepresentative and pretty useless.
Why? Well for example in Germany DNA-tests are quite unknown and unpopular.

How many germans from the 80 million that life in germany made a DNA-test? Anybody knows the exact numbers? i don´t. Let´s just say a number...maybe 250.000 (maybe only 25.000 who knows).
From that generous estimate 250.000 testers are how many from North-, West-, East, Southgermany?
How many testers from Southgermany are from Bavaria or Baden-Wurttemberg?
How many testers from Bavaria are from Lower Franconia, Middle Franconia, Upper Franconia, Upper Palatinate, Swabia, Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria?
How many testers from Middle Franconia are from the City Würzburg?
Ok, i just a number now...5 People!

But how many from this 5 people are really originally from Würzburg?
How many from this 5 people that are originally (born in this City) from Würzburg can traced back their family tree on paper at least for 8-10 generations in this City?

I can not say an exact number but in my estimation i would say 1! This is not representative for a whole area!

The whole system with the heat maps don´t work because they are not scientifically be performed.

Don't forget to consider how many of the 50 million German Americans have tested.

Compared to the French, Germans have much better coverage.

Agamemnon
05-21-2016, 10:20 PM
Don't forget to consider how many of the 50 million German Americans have tested.

Compared to the French, Germans have much better coverage.

Indeed, France is the black hole of european genetics.

ADW_1981
05-22-2016, 01:38 AM
Although, if I remember correctly a couple large studies have looked at France and regional distribution of DF27, U152, L21, U106. I don't recall such a study in Germany. In a sense Germany is less studied IMHO, unless someone can direct me to a sizeable one that has deeper SNP results from the various regions.

razyn
05-22-2016, 03:14 AM
I believe those large studies were conducted before DF27 was discovered, and they share some of the same drawbacks as the Eupedia map thereof. Which btw doesn't map M153 alone; Maciamo also knew about SRY2627. Anyway, the more recent academic papers whose authors had actually heard of DF27 didn't go back and sample French people; they just cited Busby et al (who knew not that DF27 existed, much less where) and a couple of that study's predecessors. If this is wrong, I'm sure someone will explain it to me. But there's a lot of suitably abstract, peer-reviewed, controlled-sample stuff in print, and still used for construction of misleading heat maps and so on, in which the best "proxy" for DF27 is P312* (ex U152, ex L21).

Webb
05-22-2016, 03:53 AM
I believe those large studies were conducted before DF27 was discovered, and they share some of the same drawbacks as the Eupedia map thereof. Which btw doesn't map M153 alone; Maciamo also knew about SRY2627. Anyway, the more recent academic papers whose authors had actually heard of DF27 didn't go back and sample French people; they just cited Busby et al (who knew not that DF27 existed, much less where) and a couple of that study's predecessors. If this is wrong, I'm sure someone will explain it to me. But there's a lot of suitably abstract, peer-reviewed, controlled-sample stuff in print, and still used for construction of misleading heat maps and so on, in which the best "proxy" for DF27 is P312* (ex U152, ex L21).

So if the French nut is ever cracked open, and DF27 is the predominate P312 clade, what will this indicate? I don't think I have ever expressed my real opinion that DF27 is Celtic, but I believe it is thoroughly Celtic.

MitchellSince1893
05-22-2016, 04:50 AM
Although, if I remember correctly a couple large studies have looked at France and regional distribution of DF27, U152, L21, U106. I don't recall such a study in Germany. In a sense Germany is less studied IMHO, unless someone can direct me to a sizeable one that has deeper SNP results from the various regions.

Not sure if this meets your criteria of "a sizeable one" but here are the Myres et al results

Germany North
U106 = 18.8%
P312xL21,U152 = 3.1%
L21 = 3.1%
U152 = 6.3%

Germany South
N = 91
U106 = 19.8%
P312xL21,U152 = 9.9%
L21 = 2.2%
U152 = 8.8%

Germany East
N = 47
U106 = 25.5%
P312xL21,U152 = 0%
L21 = 2.1%
U152 = 8.5%

Germany West
N = 100
U106 = 24%
P312xL21,U152 = 10%
L21 = 1%
U152 = 14%

razyn
05-22-2016, 07:49 AM
Not sure if this meets your criteria of "a sizeable one" but here are the Myres et al results

Just as a point of reference we don't much see anymore, this is the ISOGG tree as of Nov. 2, 2010, about ten weeks after the Myres et al paper was published online (though the print version is dated early in 2011):

9432

It was easier to draw maps of P312 and its top-level subclades (of which DF27 was not one), five years ago.

razyn
05-22-2016, 07:49 AM
Not sure if this meets your criteria of "a sizeable one" but here are the Myres et al results

Just as a point of reference we don't much see anymore, this is the ISOGG tree as of Nov. 2, 2010, about ten weeks after the Myres et al paper was published online (though the print version is dated early in 2011):

9432

It was easier to draw maps of P312 and its top-level subclades (of which DF27 was not one), five years ago.

Heber
05-22-2016, 08:50 AM
Don't forget to consider how many of the 50 million German Americans have tested.

Compared to the French, Germans have much better coverage.

Here is some analysis of France and Germany, mainly focused on L21 and U106 but also including a Fine Scale Analysis study on France.

France
http://pin.it/dSnfQKT

Germany
http://pin.it/3aazB-o

U106
http://pin.it/569vfpp

Mher
05-22-2016, 12:31 PM
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=31&star=false 260 people with ZZ12 on the Ytree, about 50 people from 260 -iberian population

R.Rocca
05-22-2016, 01:07 PM
Not sure if this meets your criteria of "a sizeable one" but here are the Myres et al results

Germany North
U106 = 18.8%
P312xL21,U152 = 3.1%
L21 = 3.1%
U152 = 6.3%

Germany South
N = 91
U106 = 19.8%
P312xL21,U152 = 9.9%
L21 = 2.2%
U152 = 8.8%

Germany East
N = 47
U106 = 25.5%
P312xL21,U152 = 0%
L21 = 2.1%
U152 = 8.5%

Germany West
N = 100
U106 = 24%
P312xL21,U152 = 10%
L21 = 1%
U152 = 14%

And these numbers are the reason why DF27 can't have a major frequency anywhere in Germany... because the upper limit can only be the P312(xU152,L21) frequency, and even some of that will be other clades like DF19.

ArmandoR1b
05-22-2016, 01:10 PM
Not sure if this meets your criteria of "a sizeable one" but here are the Myres et al results

Germany North
U106 = 18.8%
P312xL21,U152 = 3.1%
L21 = 3.1%
U152 = 6.3%

Germany South
N = 91
U106 = 19.8%
P312xL21,U152 = 9.9%
L21 = 2.2%
U152 = 8.8%

Germany East
N = 47
U106 = 25.5%
P312xL21,U152 = 0%
L21 = 2.1%
U152 = 8.5%

Germany West
N = 100
U106 = 24%
P312xL21,U152 = 10%
L21 = 1%
U152 = 14%

In the Myres et al. (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/abs/ejhg2010146a.html) study Germany North N=64

In Busby et al. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3259916/) they added another 102 samples

Ger-F
N=102
U106 = 27.4%
P312xL21,U152 = 7.84%
L21 = 0.98%
U152 = 17.6%

The Busby study used the samples from Myres and added samples of their own so it is best to use the Busby study.

ArmandoR1b
05-22-2016, 01:12 PM
I´m sorry but i believe that these whole "heat maps" - no matter where they come from - are unrepresentative and pretty useless.
Why? Well for example in Germany DNA-tests are quite unknown and unpopular.

How many germans from the 80 million that life in germany made a DNA-test? Anybody knows the exact numbers? i don´t. Let´s just say a number...maybe 250.000 (maybe only 25.000 who knows).
From that generous estimate 250.000 testers are how many from North-, West-, East, Southgermany?
How many testers from Southgermany are from Bavaria or Baden-Wurttemberg?
How many testers from Bavaria are from Lower Franconia, Middle Franconia, Upper Franconia, Upper Palatinate, Swabia, Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria?
How many testers from Middle Franconia are from the City Würzburg?
Ok, i just a number now...5 People!

But how many from this 5 people are really originally from Würzburg?
How many from this 5 people that are originally (born in this City) from Würzburg can traced back their family tree on paper at least for 8-10 generations in this City?

I can not say an exact number but in my estimation i would say 1! This is not representative for a whole area!

The whole system with the heat maps don´t work because they are not scientifically be performed.
The number of German Y-DNA participants in academic studies and FTDNA projects combined is probably less than 5,000. There isn't a single study that tries to get sampling data from a single city because everyone knows that humans move, mostly in their own country, and there are a lot of NPEs even when ancestry is documented. So with so much movement, NPEs, and so few people from specific cities testing it is best to use sampling data from regions of a country.

The Busby et al. (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/279/1730/884.figures-only) study used the samples from the Myres et al. (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/abs/ejhg2010146a.html) study, cited by MitchellSince1893, and added samples of their own. The regions of Germany tested are the ones mentioned by MitchellSince1893.

The total of the Busby Germany samples is 423. I don't see any region of Germany ever reaching a rate much higher than the 10% of P312xL21,U152 found in Germany West which is the highest rate.

The total of the Busby France samples is 664. The lowest rate of P312xL21,U152 in France is 6.25% but the highest is 31.3% and the average is 20.4%.

Not a single region of Spain and Portugal in the Busby study have a rate lower than 28.6% for P312xL21,U152, and that was in southern Spain where the Moorish invasion affected Spain the most. The highest is 52% and the average is 40% both of which are higher than France. Iberians and Latin Americans are very high in P312xL21,U152 at FTDNA and almost 100% of them that are P312xL21,U152 that get tested for DF27 end up being positive for DF27. If the R1b-M269 predicted participants of the Iberian DNA and Mexico DNA projects at FTDNA were to get the M343 SNP pack about 70% of them would be DF27, 7% would be L21, 9.5% would be U152, and 4.18% would be U106.

About a month ago, I pulled data from http://www.ytree.net/ and I used just the flag data of Iberians and Latin Americans there were 117 that were DF27, 22 were L21, and 21 were U152, and none were in any of the other P312 subclades. So out of 160 Iberians and Latin Americans 73% were DF27. The Myres and Busby studies combined has Iberia at 50% P312 out of 1213 people which is about 607 people. 40% are DF27 which is about 486 people. So about 80% Iberian P312 (486/1213) are DF27. Relatively speaking 73% vs 80% isn't much of a difference. So what's being found with BigY and FGC testing isn't that far off from the Busby study.

The heat maps aren't all that far off from reality. If a small region of Germany ever shows to be higher than 20% I will be surprised but I don't think that it will make much of a difference.

razyn
05-22-2016, 02:07 PM
The heat maps aren't all that far off from reality. If a small region of Germany ever shows to be higher than 20% I will be surprised but I don't think that it will make much of a difference.

But it's still a present reality, and that typically doesn't say much about the place of origin, direction of spread, date of penetration, etc. of the rather ancient mutations whose non-ancient heat is being mapped. Heat of DF27 in 21st century Iberia does not imply a backwash or "reflux" of DF27 from Iberian founders to its present subclades with greatest strength in Armenia, Ukraine, Finland, etc. Those reflux theories are as modern as the data behind the said heat maps, and btw have pretty similar origins. If aDNA supported them, they would be more persuasive. So far, it appears (to many sane and educated persons) not to. Some day, it might; but I continue to doubt it, until I see something that looks like basal DF27 west of Bavaria in a context older than 4500 YBP. Probably, even then, because evidence to the contrary also continues to grow.

Lugus
05-22-2016, 02:35 PM
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=31&star=false 260 people with ZZ12 on the Ytree, about 50 people from 260 -iberian population

What's your theory about the origin of your DF27? Do you have any concrete information?

ArmandoR1b
05-22-2016, 02:38 PM
But it's still a present reality,
I'm not sure what you mean by that. I assume I do but I would rather that you elaborate.


and that typically doesn't say much about the place of origin, direction of spread, date of penetration, etc. of the rather ancient mutations whose non-ancient heat is being mapped. Heat of DF27 in 21st century Iberia does not imply a backwash or "reflux" of DF27 from Iberian founders to its present subclades with greatest strength in Armenia, Ukraine, Finland, etc. Those reflux theories are as modern as the data behind the said heat maps, and btw have pretty similar origins. If aDNA supported them, they would be more persuasive. So far, it appears (to many sane and educated persons) not to. Some day, it might; but I continue to doubt it, until I see something that looks like basal DF27 west of Bavaria in a context older than 4500 YBP. Probably, even then, because evidence to the contrary also continues to grow.
I haven't stated otherwise. I agree that where DF27 pooled doesn't indicate the source of the stream. The confusion of heat maps vs origin is what prompted the original post of the thread and the post by Wiborg. The people that are confused are the ones that need to be informed of the difference of source and pooling of subclades.

However, we are a long way from determining the source. It could be anywhere since DF27 is found in so many places there is no way to be able to tell where it started. There has been a lot of movement in the past 4,000 years and there are still too few people from the continent that have had NGS testing and the academic projects don't have the money for NGS testing of modern populations which is needed to help in determining the age of divergence of the subclades found in the continent outside of Iberian, France, and Germany.

razyn
05-22-2016, 03:17 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by that. I assume I do but I would rather that you elaborate.

I've been elaborating for six years, including on this thread. And the reason is found here, among many other places. We can't stop people from drawing incorrect conclusions from the maps they see; but we can remind them (if it be the case) that the map doesn't depict their conclusion. In the best scenario, it depicts what its caption says. Myres tells us that nine of the 91 south German guys tested for her 2010 study turned out not to be L21 or U152. Not that DF27 never had a presence in what is now south Germany; nor that the presence DF27 clearly has in the large German population today indicates an ancient reflux from the small Franco-Iberian population of the third millennium BCE. Those are theories, and people who espouse them look at these heat maps and say "AHA! Just as I expected!" They also look at autosomal results in samples reflecting 5,000 years of migration and intermarriage, think up ways to correlate some modern pattern of Ancestry Informative Markers with ancient uniparental ones (very recently including DF27), and say "AHA! Just as I expected!"

It is statistically possible for them to be right, but these heat maps, like those PCA plots, don't prove it. People are just too fond of saying "AHA!" to calm down about it.

razyn
05-22-2016, 03:18 PM
Deleted duplication of post.

Ric
05-22-2016, 03:37 PM
OK, Germany is not primarily DF27, but I have doubts about the df27 results for France. Has anybody reviewed them and can these results be trusted ?
In the original map that everybody is mentioning, you can see the high density inside the Basque Country bleeding into France and falling rapidly near zero passed the Pyrenean mountains, AS IF there were indeed some measurements OF EQUAL STATISTICAL VALUES made in France to support this gradient.
Is it the case really, size samples, methodology and all, can we trust this map ? For example, if the French results came from volunteer medical students like a 'school of dentistry' (Cf. Mr. Ivan Levai about a possible statistical bias, ahem) the results would be garbage.

Recently I saw another joke map where you could see the brush strokes made by hand, photoshop style...but anyways, again with a very low df27 density in France but a much higher density in Belgium. So again, was France measured accurately or is it a fake statistical fluke near zero density ?

Ric
05-22-2016, 03:37 PM
duplicated post

ArmandoR1b
05-22-2016, 04:18 PM
OK, Germany is not primarily DF27, but I have doubts about the df27 results for France. Has anybody reviewed them and can these results be trusted ?
In the original map that everybody is mentioning, you can see the high density inside the Basque Country bleeding into France and falling rapidly near zero passed the Pyrenean mountains, AS IF there were indeed some measurements OF EQUAL STATISTICAL VALUES made in France to support this gradient.
Is it the case really, size samples, methodology and all, can we trust this map ? For example, if the French results came from volunteer medical students like a 'school of dentistry' (Cf. Mr. Ivan Levai about a possible statistical bias, ahem) the results would be garbage.

Recently I saw another joke map where you could see the brush strokes made by hand, photoshop style...but anyways, again with a very low df27 density in France but a much higher density in Belgium. So again, was France measured accurately or is it a fake statistical fluke near zero density ?

The Busby et al (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/279/1730/884.figures-only) study is the best source for putative DF27. Go to http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/279/1730/884.figures-only then click on Busby_tables.xlsx

I pulled the data for France and added column headers for U106, P312, DF27, L21, and U152 for the following screenshot of the Busby table

9435

Lugus
05-22-2016, 05:06 PM
This is the map from Valverde et al., 2015, which includes data from previous studies:

9438

It's probably the least inaccurate and most up to date. The map represents P312xU152xL21.

Regarding Iberia, it shows how DF27 peaks in the center-east, the old homeland of the Celtiberians, and goes down from there. Compare now to this map taken from Lorrio, Zapatero, The Celts in Iberia: An Overview, e-Keltoi, 2005:

9437

That's the "mosaic model" for the Celticization of Iberia from the Celtiberian nuclear area, which fits the available archaeological evidence.

Ric
05-22-2016, 05:11 PM
Thanks Armando,
From Busby et al., the link above :
" All males sampled gave informed consent following ethical approval by the ethics committees at the various universities where the samples were collected."

Ric
05-22-2016, 05:19 PM
This is the map from Valverde et al., 2015, which includes data from previous studies:

9438

It's probably the least inaccurate and most up to date. The map represents P312xU152xL21.

Regarding Iberia, it shows how DF27 peaks in the center-east, the old homeland of the Celtiberians, and goes down from there. Compare now to this map taken from Lorrio, Zapatero, The Celts in Iberia: An Overview, e-Keltoi, 2005:

9437

That's the "mosaic model" for the Celticization of Iberia from the Celtiberian nuclear area, which fits the available archaeological evidence.Striking resemblance indeed. Regarding France, the map you posted is similar with what I've seen, with a higher df27 near Northern France than Center.

MitchellSince1893
05-22-2016, 05:36 PM
Un journaliste américain lui demande, Mais Mr le pen, l'immigration n'est pas une mauvaise chose, regardez l'Amerique !!!
Et Lepen de répondre, vous n'avez rien compris. Moi je suis le chef des indiens!!!
http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/f/122061/1192018/1196740678430/HomelandSecurity1492.jpg?token=2s2sZkCSt14T2AETxJm 7g6SAETc%3D

ArmandoR1b
05-22-2016, 06:17 PM
Thanks Armando,
From Busby et al., the link above :
" All males sampled gave informed consent following ethical approval by the ethics committees at the various universities where the samples were collected."

Yes, but does that make you think that it affected the results and caused them to be different from the actual rates of France?

ArmandoR1b
05-22-2016, 06:20 PM
Striking resemblance indeed. Regarding France, the map you posted is similar with what I've seen, with a higher df27 near Northern France than Center.

That's because they use the Busby et al. data which includes the longitude and latitude of each tested region. Have you downloaded and looked at the Busby spreadsheet?

The Valverde et al. (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n3/abs/ejhg2015114a.html) study only added 145 samples from France which were from Brest. 17.24% were DF27. The Busby et al. study has NW France as 20.9% for P312xU152xL21. So not much of a difference.

ArmandoR1b
05-22-2016, 07:05 PM
This is the map from Valverde et al., 2015, which includes data from previous studies:

9438

It's probably the least inaccurate and most up to date. The map represents P312xU152xL21.

Regarding Iberia, it shows how DF27 peaks in the center-east, the old homeland of the Celtiberians, and goes down from there. Compare now to this map taken from Lorrio, Zapatero, The Celts in Iberia: An Overview, e-Keltoi, 2005:

9437

That's the "mosaic model" for the Celticization of Iberia from the Celtiberian nuclear area, which fits the available archaeological evidence.

The maps are based off of the tables. The Valverde Supplementary Table S1 (xls 28K) (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n3/suppinfo/ejhg2015114s1.html?url=/ejhg/journal/v24/n3/abs/ejhg2015114a.html) shows the rural Basques to have the highest frequency of DF27.

9442

Isidro
05-22-2016, 07:22 PM
I'm probably preaching to the choir, I know. Most everyone here already knows that DF27 is found ALL OVER western Europe. But it bothers me a little when I continue to see many folks suggest that DF27 is a properly "Iberian" SNP...either as a result of having originally arisen there, or being mostly concentrated there, or whatever. I see this on many different forums.



Whether or not DF27 arose in Iberia or elsewhere on the continent continues to be discussed, I know, and frankly, I'm not too interested in that question. (Though I will admit to being convinced that it arose somewhere in central Europe and not Iberia, so I'm not unbiased.)

To be fair, there does seem to be something of a Northern Europe-to-Iberia split within DF27, but it occurs at a deeper SNP level: at around Z295 or Z270 and below, IIRC. But everything there above is found all the way from the Azores to Sweden.

This SNP map was taken from FTDNA. It shows DF27, Z195/Z196, and Z209/Z220. All of which, of course, are under the DF27 umbrella.

Long story short, DF27 != not "Iberian".


I am a little confused about your 3 part first post. first you assert that: DF27 is not primarily an "Iberian" subclade (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7246-DF27-is-not-primarily-an-quot-Iberian-quot-subclade)Then you go on saying that whether or not DF27 arose in Iberia or elsewhere... you are not interested in that question, although you admit that Z295 or Z270 split above and below is found all the way from the Azores to Sweden.
Secondly, you insert your opinion that there does seem to be something of a Northern Europe-to-Iberia split within DF27 which you stratified in the above comment.
Finally you state that long story short, DF27!= not "Iberian".
If I may suggest the possibility of considering P312 and DF27 as twins "in time", and L21 and U152 as a later branches?.I do realize that estimates to date and ancient DNA results preliminarily make DF27 as a brother clade to L21 and U152 but perhaps considering it's distribution it could be questioned?.

Later on, once this challenging question is resolved we could tackle origins, heat maps and majority and minority status.

Ric
05-22-2016, 07:36 PM
Yes, but does that make you think that it affected the results and caused them to be different from the actual rates of France?

I am from a rural region in France and I know some little villages nearby mine that were deeply rooted in history, yet not a single of their kids went to University or Medical school. I hope the designers of the study corrected for the fact that farmer's children were, and I believe still are, less likely to go to Universities. And until recently at least, farming would correlate with older roots while city people represented a more recent population. So a bias in favor of city people, yes, but to change dramatically the results, hopefully not. I am a grandson farmer for example and I am Df27 in a place that, according to the map, has little of it.

Wiborg
05-22-2016, 07:37 PM
And these numbers are the reason why DF27 can't have a major frequency anywhere in Germany... because the upper limit can only be the P312(xU152,L21) frequency, and even some of that will be other clades like DF19.

I strongly disagree! Justification see below



The number of German Y-DNA participants in academic studies and FTDNA projects combined is probably less than 5,000.

The Busby et al. (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/279/1730/884.figures-only) study used the samples from the Myres et al. (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/abs/ejhg2010146a.html) study, cited by MitchellSince1893, and added samples of their own. The regions of Germany tested are the ones mentioned by MitchellSince1893.

The total of the Busby Germany samples is 423. I don't see any region of Germany ever reaching a rate much higher than the 10% of P312xL21,U152 found in Germany West which is the highest rate.

About a month ago, I pulled data from http://www.ytree.net/ and I used just the flag data of Iberians and Latin Americans there were 117 that were DF27, 22 were L21, and 21 were U152, and none were in any of the other P312 subclades. So out of 160 Iberians and Latin Americans 73% were DF27. The Myres and Busby studies combined has Iberia at 50% P312 out of 1213 people which is about 607 people. 40% are DF27 which is about 486 people. So about 80% Iberian P312 (486/1213) are DF27. Relatively speaking 73% vs 80% isn't much of a difference. So what's being found with BigY and FGC testing isn't that far off from the Busby study.

The heat maps aren't all that far off from reality. If a small region of Germany ever shows to be higher than 20% I will be surprised but I don't think that it will make much of a difference.

I strongly disagree here too. Like you said there are less then 5.000 participants from germany. That means there are only DNA-results from 0,0060975609756098 % of the whole population!

The total of the Busby Germany samples is 423 -> That means only 26 people per state (16 in Germany)!
-Let´s take Bavaria that has 12.7 million inhabitants. 26 people are 0,00020472440944882 % of the population of Bavaria!
Bavaria has 4 big tribes: Franks, the Swabians, Oldbavaria and the Sudeten Germans (which are German Bohemia, Deutschmährer and Sudetenschlesier that came after WWII).
Did they test all tribes or just one? Did they test different areas/locations or just one or two places?
-Let´s take Saxony that has 4 million inhabitants. 26 people are 0,00065 % of the population of Saxony.
Saxony has about 40.000 Sorbs, a western Slavic folk. Did they test only Saxons or Sorbs too?
and so on and so on...

The same is with Myres... 9 of the 91 south German guys tested for her 2010 study turned out not to be L21 or U152.
91 people are 0,00071653543307087 % of the population of Bavaria! Same questions here, did she test all tribes, different areas?

I´m not sure what you mean with "I used just the flag data of Iberians and Latin Americans"... Do you mean you looked at the (country-)flags? If so your evaluation from ytree is unrepresentative too because it´s up to me if i choose a flag or not. Or someone just choose an Iberian flag because he life there but he knows his ancestors are from France...

I´m sorry but all these "studies" are unrepresentative - in my opinion. I´m German, my ancestors are from east Germany and i´m under DF27.

As long there isn´t a really representative study in ALL European Countries there´s no way to say DF27 is Iberian, French, Polish or whatever. I guess like in France in Poland are DNA-Tests not allowed. However like it has already been noted we need aDNA for DF27.

Ric
05-22-2016, 07:38 PM
http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/f/122061/1192018/1196740678430/HomelandSecurity1492.jpg?token=2s2sZkCSt14T2AETxJm 7g6SAETc%3D

Haha that's a good one, although a bit pessimistic into its implication.

Ric
05-22-2016, 07:49 PM
That's because they use the Busby et al. data which includes the longitude and latitude of each tested region. Have you downloaded and looked at the Busby spreadsheet?


I looked at it but I trust yours.


The Valverde et al. (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n3/abs/ejhg2015114a.html) study only added 145 samples from France which were from Brest. 17.24% were DF27. The Busby et al. study has NW France as 20.9% for P312xU152xL21. So not much of a difference.Yes, now df27 appears like a coastal population, with some hotter spots, but always near the coast and avoiding deep mainlands except the Basque country.
The hot spot in Belgium is very interesting to me.
I wish more people from there could test and I'd bet many will be CTS4065 or nearby.

razyn
05-22-2016, 08:27 PM
I believe those large studies were conducted before DF27 was discovered, and they share some of the same drawbacks as the Eupedia map thereof. Which btw doesn't map M153 alone; Maciamo also knew about SRY2627.
Sorry about quoting myself, a few too many hours have passed and I can't just "edit." Anyway, Maciamo Hay states in his 2013 caption what he is mapping: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28933-New-map-of-R1b-DF27-%28SRY2627-M153%29

And it's not some broader group, such as P312 (xL21, xU152). [Rich Rocca created one like that. I may have chided him for not showing any geography east of Istanbul or something; but Maciamo also has no data from there, though he does use a wider base map.] Eupedia's DF27 map shows a couple of subgroups of one of the two roughly equal branches below DF27, namely the Z195+ (or ZZ12-) side. Within the DF27 haplogroup project at FTDNA, these are currently subgroups Bm (M153+, 14 guys), Dc and Dd (SRY2627+, 137 guys). Or about 10% of the project.

Our man in Yerevan, Mher, alluded to this in his post #33 here: the ZZ12 side of DF27 (untouched by Eupedia's map, and unknown to the Myres or Busby teams) appears to be less than 20% Iberian. We don't really know how the many subgroups of DF27 might be balanced or distributed in France, and it seems unlikely that adding a hundred or so samples from Brest would sort that for us. They may, if mapped someday, even look somewhat like Maciamo's map.

Anyway, R1b-L11 people migrating from eastern steppes into the European peninsula four to five thousand years ago, chatting up the local potter girls in PIE dialects while sharing beakers of wine made from their Caucasian grapes, were all running into the same mountains and oceans, sooner or later. Different patrilineal kinship groups piled up at different termini, miners here and cowboys there; and we can still sort of map those with "heat."

ArmandoR1b
05-22-2016, 08:28 PM
I am from a rural region in France and I know some little villages nearby mine that were deeply rooted in history, yet not a single of their kids went to University or Medical school. I hope the designers of the study corrected for the fact that farmer's children were, and I believe still are, less likely to go to Universities. And until recently at least, farming would correlate with older roots while city people represented a more recent population. So a bias in favor of city people, yes, but to change dramatically the results, hopefully not. I am a grandson farmer for example and I am Df27 in a place that, according to the map, has little of it.
City people represent a more recent population from where? There is almost a 20% difference for rural and urban Basques but they also have a much higher rate of DF27 to begin with. I would expect the difference between rural and urban French that are DF27 to not be so drastic due to a lower rate of DF27 overall in France. That is unless the more recent population is from outside of France.

ArmandoR1b
05-22-2016, 09:13 PM
I strongly disagree! Justification see below

I strongly disagree here too. Like you said there are less then 5.000 participants from germany. That means there are only DNA-results from 0,0060975609756098 % of the whole population!

The total of the Busby Germany samples is 423 -> That means only 26 people per state (16 in Germany)!
-Let´s take Bavaria that has 12.7 million inhabitants. 26 people are 0,00020472440944882 % of the population of Bavaria!
Bavaria has 4 big tribes: Franks, the Swabians, Oldbavaria and the Sudeten Germans (which are German Bohemia, Deutschmährer and Sudetenschlesier that came after WWII).
Did they test all tribes or just one? Did they test different areas/locations or just one or two places?
-Let´s take Saxony that has 4 million inhabitants. 26 people are 0,00065 % of the population of Saxony.
Saxony has about 40.000 Sorbs, a western Slavic folk. Did they test only Saxons or Sorbs too?
and so on and so on...

The same is with Myres... 9 of the 91 south German guys tested for her 2010 study turned out not to be L21 or U152.
91 people are 0,00071653543307087 % of the population of Bavaria! Same questions here, did she test all tribes, different areas?

I´m not sure what you mean with "I used just the flag data of Iberians and Latin Americans"... Do you mean you looked at the (country-)flags? If so your evaluation from ytree is unrepresentative too because it´s up to me if i choose a flag or not. Or someone just choose an Iberian flag because he life there but he knows his ancestors are from France...

I´m sorry but all these "studies" are unrepresentative - in my opinion. I´m German, my ancestors are from east Germany and i´m under DF27.

As long there isn´t a really representative study in ALL European Countries there´s no way to say DF27 is Iberian, French, Polish or whatever. I guess like in France in Poland are DNA-Tests not allowed. However like it has already been noted we need aDNA for DF27.

At times insufficient data can cause erroneous conclusions but as we can see with the 1,000 Genomes, Myres, Busby, Martínez-Cruz, and Valverde studies we know that Iberia has the highest percentage of P312xU152xL21 and most of that is DF27. The Myres study on it's own would have told us that and it only used 554 samples for Iberia. The extra studies simply reinforced the previous studies about how common P312xU152xL21 is in Iberia.

There is no reason to think that a small region of Germany is going to have a very high percentage of DF27 when most of Germany has a low percentage of DF27.

Yes, I know that a person can put the flag that they want and it isn't scientific but the rates aren't very different from the studies for British Isles and Iberia so what it does is support and not refute the study. Most people that put a flag do know their ancestry and they do put their real ancestry. There are too few French and Germans at http://www.ytree.net/ for that data to be compared to the Busby et al data.


I´m sorry but all these "studies" are unrepresentative - in my opinion. I´m German, my ancestors are from east Germany and i´m under DF27.
Emotional attachment affects judgement.


As long there isn´t a really representative study in ALL European Countries there´s no way to say DF27 is Iberian, French, Polish or whatever. I guess like in France in Poland are DNA-Tests not allowed. However like it has already been noted we need aDNA for DF27.Only the people that think heat map=origin are the people that say DF27 = Iberian. Did you see my reply to razyn?

Yes, finding a DF27 specimen close to 4,500 years old with reliable RC dating and isotope testing, and high-quality DNA will help provide clues to the most likely location that DF27 first appeared.

R.Rocca
05-22-2016, 09:52 PM
I strongly disagree! Justification see below

I strongly disagree here too. Like you said there are less then 5.000 participants from germany. That means there are only DNA-results from 0,0060975609756098 % of the whole population!

The total of the Busby Germany samples is 423 -> That means only 26 people per state (16 in Germany)!
-Let´s take Bavaria that has 12.7 million inhabitants. 26 people are 0,00020472440944882 % of the population of Bavaria!
Bavaria has 4 big tribes: Franks, the Swabians, Oldbavaria and the Sudeten Germans (which are German Bohemia, Deutschmährer and Sudetenschlesier that came after WWII).
Did they test all tribes or just one? Did they test different areas/locations or just one or two places?
-Let´s take Saxony that has 4 million inhabitants. 26 people are 0,00065 % of the population of Saxony.
Saxony has about 40.000 Sorbs, a western Slavic folk. Did they test only Saxons or Sorbs too?
and so on and so on...

The same is with Myres... 9 of the 91 south German guys tested for her 2010 study turned out not to be L21 or U152.
91 people are 0,00071653543307087 % of the population of Bavaria! Same questions here, did she test all tribes, different areas?

I´m not sure what you mean with "I used just the flag data of Iberians and Latin Americans"... Do you mean you looked at the (country-)flags? If so your evaluation from ytree is unrepresentative too because it´s up to me if i choose a flag or not. Or someone just choose an Iberian flag because he life there but he knows his ancestors are from France...

I´m sorry but all these "studies" are unrepresentative - in my opinion. I´m German, my ancestors are from east Germany and i´m under DF27.

As long there isn´t a really representative study in ALL European Countries there´s no way to say DF27 is Iberian, French, Polish or whatever. I guess like in France in Poland are DNA-Tests not allowed. However like it has already been noted we need aDNA for DF27.

Sorry, but nothing you wrote here is scientific and does nothing to change the reality of DF27 being a minor subclade in Germany. If Germany is under-represented in a study, then ALL subclades are underrepresented in a uniform matter, not just one. It's not like one study has DF27 at 50% and another has it at 5%. It's just common sense people... the frequency of DF27 is anywhere from 3-10% in Germany and that's it. More than likely it is even lower in the east than in the west, unless you want to argue that DF27 is somehow magically different than all of the rest of P312 subclades. And the same thing about flags... what, Germans are less likely to select a flag than a Spaniard? Is flagophobia common in Gemany? Jeeze.

R.Rocca
05-22-2016, 10:10 PM
Sorry about quoting myself, a few too many hours have passed and I can't just "edit." Anyway, Maciamo Hay states in his 2013 caption what he is mapping: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28933-New-map-of-R1b-DF27-%28SRY2627-M153%29

And it's not some broader group, such as P312 (xL21, xU152). [Rich Rocca created one like that. I may have chided him for not showing any geography east of Istanbul or something; but Maciamo also has no data from there, though he does use a wider base map.] Eupedia's DF27 map shows a couple of subgroups of one of the two roughly equal branches below DF27, namely the Z195+ (or ZZ12-) side. Within the DF27 haplogroup project at FTDNA, these are currently subgroups Bm (M153+, 14 guys), Dc and Dd (SRY2627+, 137 guys). Or about 10% of the project.

Our man in Yerevan, Mher, alluded to this in his post #33 here: the ZZ12 side of DF27 (untouched by Eupedia's map, and unknown to the Myres or Busby teams) appears to be less than 20% Iberian. We don't really know how the many subgroups of DF27 might be balanced or distributed in France, and it seems unlikely that adding a hundred or so samples from Brest would sort that for us. They may, if mapped someday, even look somewhat like Maciamo's map.

Anyway, R1b-L11 people migrating from eastern steppes into the European peninsula four to five thousand years ago, chatting up the local potter girls in PIE dialects while sharing beakers of wine made from their Caucasian grapes, were all running into the same mountains and oceans, sooner or later. Different patrilineal kinship groups piled up at different termini, miners here and cowboys there; and we can still sort of map those with "heat."

Yeah, I had data east of Istanbul and I didn't zoom the map out for the same reason that I didn't show all of Africa or Asia, because P312(xL21,U152) averages out to zero percent there, not because there is some magical DF27 anywhere east of Istanbul.

R.Rocca
05-22-2016, 10:13 PM
Thanks Armando,
From Busby et al., the link above :
" All males sampled gave informed consent following ethical approval by the ethics committees at the various universities where the samples were collected."

So DF27 people are idiots and are less likely to go to Universities now? As if they didn't ask the students what regions their ancestors were from? C'mon people, give me a break.

ADW_1981
05-22-2016, 10:43 PM
I looked at it but I trust yours.

Yes, now df27 appears like a coastal population, with some hotter spots, but always near the coast and avoiding deep mainlands except the Basque country.
The hot spot in Belgium is very interesting to me.
I wish more people from there could test and I'd bet many will be CTS4065 or nearby.

I don't know if it's really coastal, or represents the southern-west most route of P312.

razyn
05-22-2016, 11:16 PM
Yeah, I had data east of Istanbul and I didn't zoom the map out for the same reason that I didn't show all of Africa or Asia, because P312(xL21,U152) averages out to zero percent there, not because there is some magical DF27 anywhere east of Istanbul.

It's not so much magical (much less high-percentage) as basal DF27 that I'd be unsurprised to find east of Istanbul. Or anyhow, in that direction, from Franco-Iberian hotspots on 21st century heat maps. I was saying that in 2013, and you weren't. The recent aDNA papers (Allentoft, Haak, et whoever) haven't persuaded me to repent. One thing that has changed is that I now think of you as my U152 brother, all of us being ZZ11+ (unlike some); so at that level and earlier, we have the same research target. You throw your darts, and I'll throw mine. In case anyone else is interested, we had this discussion initially after Mike W posted your DF27 Proxy map here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?824-Are-we-getting-some-consensus-on-the-R1b-story&p=5583&viewfull=1#post5583

Ric
05-22-2016, 11:48 PM
This is the map from Valverde et al., 2015, which includes data from previous studies:

9438

It's probably the least inaccurate and most up to date. The map represents P312xU152xL21.

Regarding Iberia, it shows how DF27 peaks in the center-east, the old homeland of the Celtiberians, and goes down from there. Compare now to this map taken from Lorrio, Zapatero, The Celts in Iberia: An Overview, e-Keltoi, 2005:

9437

That's the "mosaic model" for the Celticization of Iberia from the Celtiberian nuclear area, which fits the available archaeological evidence.

I suggest the admins post this new map, I mean the first one, in the df27 group as the new official Df27 map, to debrainwash us from the old one.

lgmayka
05-23-2016, 02:06 AM
So DF27 people are idiots and are less likely to go to Universities now?
His basic point, which is correct, is that students at research universities are not necessarily representative of the nation as a whole. In the United States, for example, prestigious universities have historically required either a lot of money or political connections, so their student bodies are skewed toward the various wealthier, more influential demographic categories.

Whether that really makes a significant difference with respect to French DF27 is not for me to say.

lgmayka
05-23-2016, 02:17 AM
Yeah, I had data east of Istanbul and I didn't zoom the map out for the same reason that I didn't show all of Africa or Asia, because P312(xL21,U152) averages out to zero percent there, not because there is some magical DF27 anywhere east of Istanbul.
Well, we know that DF27 (R-BY653 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-BY653/)) is present in Kiev/Kyiv, and that city is slightly (about 1.5 degrees longitude) east of Istanbul. :)

razyn
05-23-2016, 03:47 AM
The valley that holds Khndzoresk, Armenia seems to be a hotspot of DF27>ZZ12>ZZ19>Z31644>A431. That's more like a thousand miles east of Istanbul.

I'm not trying to prove anything with it; I only mention that we do have DF27 project members from there, one of whom is posting on this thread. We also have A431 guys with paternal lineage from Iberia; from Germany via Virginia; and from England via Maine and Texas. It's an interesting old DF27 subclade, one of many that are invisible until you see them -- and then, behold, they aren't.

ArmandoR1b
05-23-2016, 01:03 PM
I am from a rural region in France and I know some little villages nearby mine that were deeply rooted in history, yet not a single of their kids went to University or Medical school. I hope the designers of the study corrected for the fact that farmer's children were, and I believe still are, less likely to go to Universities. And until recently at least, farming would correlate with older roots while city people represented a more recent population. So a bias in favor of city people, yes, but to change dramatically the results, hopefully not. I am a grandson farmer for example and I am Df27 in a place that, according to the map, has little of it.


His basic point, which is correct, is that students at research universities are not necessarily representative of the nation as a whole. In the United States, for example, prestigious universities have historically required either a lot of money or political connections, so their student bodies are skewed toward the various wealthier, more influential demographic categories.

Whether that really makes a significant difference with respect to French DF27 is not for me to say.
There are four different studies (Myres, Busby, Martínez-Cruz, Valverde) that include southern France and multiple regions of Spain. All four of the studies show that southern France has a very high frequency of P312xL21xU152 or DF27 just like northern Spain. Two of the studies (Myres and Busby) include other regions of France and they both show central and northern France to be lower in DF27 than southern France but higher in U152. Busby included a set of 80 samples from Strasbourg in eastern France that has the second lowest DF27 but the highest U152. Valverde et al. added Brest in Brittany, France which has 17.24% DF27 but 52.41% L21, which is a subclade common to British Isles so no surprise there. Martínez-Cruz et al added the extremely high percentage of P312xL21xU152 in the French Basque region. Since there is an obvious decrease of DF7 from the Pyrenees towards northern France and from the Pyrenees towards southern Spain there is no reason to think that the university students are much different from the autochthonous population. Unless the U152 and L21 students in central and northern France are smarter or richer than the DF27 students and the opposite being true in southern France. I think we can all agree that does not make any sense.

The analogy to the U.S. universities is not valid because the point of the studies in France was to find the subclades of the autochthonous population and the autochthonous population in the U.S. is Native American and the people in the universities in the U.S. aren't from a single European country. The people in the universities of France should mostly be from the autochthonous population with a very low percentage of them, if any, with a direct paternal ancestor in the past 1,000 years from outside of France.

R.Rocca
05-23-2016, 02:24 PM
Well, we know that DF27 (R-BY653 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-BY653/)) is present in Kiev/Kyiv, and that city is slightly (about 1.5 degrees longitude) east of Istanbul. :)

Of course, but "is present" does not qualify as statistically significant to show up in a heat map.

Ric
05-23-2016, 04:59 PM
...to think that the university students are much different from the autochthonous population. Unless the U152 and L21 students in central and northern France are smarter or richer than the DF27 students and the opposite being true in southern France. I think we can all agree that does not make any sense....
I was just asking for a second opinion about the French data, that's all. Why a second opinion ? it's too long to explain with possible endless argumentation and trolling coming. So I leave it here.

Ric
05-24-2016, 11:07 PM
Sorry, but nothing you wrote here is scientific and does nothing to change the reality of DF27 being a minor subclade in Germany. If Germany is under-represented in a study, then ALL subclades are underrepresented in a uniform matter, not just one. It's not like one study has DF27 at 50% and another has it at 5%. It's just common sense people... the frequency of DF27 is anywhere from 3-10% in Germany and that's it. More than likely it is even lower in the east than in the west, unless you want to argue that DF27 is somehow magically different than all of the rest of P312 subclades. And the same thing about flags... what, Germans are less likely to select a flag than a Spaniard? Is flagophobia common in Gemany? Jeeze.

The modern df27 frequency is lower in the East, including eastern France than Iberia, OK.
So
1)3500 to 4000 years ago, a single man appeared with the df27 defining mutation and he had sons in the area near South Germany and Central Europe. A small group of Df27 men migrated westward from there and reached Spain by land or boat. Providing all these df27 men stayed in the same clan and providing all these clans moved, then there were no df27 left behind for us to check on fossil dna, no matter how big was the initial number of df27 people in that place. But if that number was not big to start with and they all moved in addition, then I don't see how we are going to find these fossils to prove that these people really 'appeared' in Central Europe. Perhaps a few Df27+ were left behind and are the ancestors of modern Eastern European DF27 people, in that case we should find intermediary skeletons from the pre-Roman area, the Middle age etc. Is it the case ?

2) the mutation appeared in Spain and the Df27 clans moved eastward, but never reached central Europe in big numbers. So here again, we will not find any df27 skeletons in central Europe. No difference with above, I don't see how we can chose.

PS: please admin delete my post above, I don't want to feel rude to Armando and I can't edit the post. This topic is too inflammatory anyway.

R.Rocca
05-24-2016, 11:39 PM
The modern df27 frequency is lower in the East, including eastern France than Iberia, OK.
So
1)3500 to 4000 years ago, a single man appeared with the df27 defining mutation and he had sons in the area near South Germany and Central Europe. A small group of Df27 men migrated westward from there and reached Spain by land or boat. Providing all these df27 men stayed in the same clan and providing all these clans moved, then there were no df27 left behind for us to check on fossil dna, no matter how big was the initial number of df27 people in that place. But if that number was not big to start with and they all moved in addition, then I don't see how we are going to find these fossils to prove that these people really 'appeared' in Central Europe. Perhaps a few Df27+ were left behind and are the ancestors of modern Eastern European DF27 people, in that case we should find intermediary skeletons from the pre-Roman area, the Middle age etc. Is it the case ?

2) the mutation appeared in Spain and the Df27 clans moved eastward, but never reached central Europe in big numbers. So here again, we will not find any df27 skeletons in central Europe. No difference with above, I don't see how we can chose.

PS: please admin delete my post above, I don't want to feel rude to Armando and I can't edit the post. This topic is too inflammatory anyway.

Zero of what I wrote has to do with the origin of DF27, only it's modern frequency. So, I'm not sure why you responded to my post.

Gravetto-Danubian
08-20-2016, 07:30 AM
A new abstract sampling Iberian DF 27. They suggest that it has a very young age, as expected, c. 2000 BC.

A BRONZE AGE LINEAGE DOMINATES THE Y-CHROMOSOME LANDSCAPE IN THE IBERIAN PENINSULA (http://ecoanthropologie.mnhn.fr/DPHP2016/DPHP2016_plenary.htm)
F. CALAFELL, et al.

The genetic landscape of the Iberian Peninsula is dominated (as in the rest of Western Europe) by haplogroup R1b, which comprises two thirds of the Y chromosomes; the rest is divided roughly equally between E-M35, G, I, and J. Within R1b, R1b-S116 (also known as P312 dominates, with ~60% in Spain;it further trifurcates into three major branches having distinct geographical distributions: M529 (L21 radiating from the British Isles, U152 in France, Switzerland and N. Italy, and DF27 in the Iberian Peninsula. DF27 is poorly known, and we have sought to characterize its distribution and diversity, with the aim of reconstructing its history. We have typed DF27 and six of its derived SNPs, as well as 16 Y-STRs in 2,993 males from 32 populations located in Spain, Portugal, France and Ireland; SNP allele frequencies were also gathered from the reference populations in the 1000 Genomes Project. We confirmed that DF27 is the most frequent haplogroup in Iberia, with an average frequency ~45%, while it dropped to <15% right across the Pyrenees. Within Iberia, it ranged from 40% in most populations to ~75% in Basques. Elsewhere, it showed high frequencies in Colombia and Puerto Rico, which implies it can be used to trace Iberian male migrations into the Americas.

However, our most striking result is how young DF27 is. We estimated from STR variation that DF27 originated 4,000±150 years ago (ya); it took it just 120 generations to grow to ~12 million carriers in Iberia and ~75 million in Central and South America (assuming just 1/3 paternal Iberian ancestry). This places the origin of DF27 in the early Bronze Age, and at least 2,000 years after the arrival of the Neolithic, which was supposed to be the last major event that shaped the European genetic landscape. The DF27 expansion may be part of a global trend, in which bursts of male lineages have been observed at different periods, and in different geographical regions (Poznik et al. 2016)

razyn
08-20-2016, 08:47 AM
We have typed DF27 and six of its derived SNPs, as well as 16 Y-STRs in 2,993 males from 32 populations located in Spain, Portugal, France and Ireland; SNP allele frequencies were also gathered from the reference populations in the 1000 Genomes Project.
and

We estimated from STR variation that DF27 originated 4,000±150 years ago (ya); it took it just 120 generations to grow to ~12 million carriers in Iberia and ~75 million in Central and South America (assuming just 1/3 paternal Iberian ancestry). This places the origin of DF27 in the early Bronze Age

Well, if one preselects the sample to emphasize an area; and then estimates the age of the whole from its variance within that area -- I expect the age will tend to skew toward youth. It is, perhaps, good evidence that the part of DF27 that actually got that far west didn't do so much before 4,000 ya. Whereas other techniques for guessing its age have suggested that the mutation itself happened closer to 5,000 ya.

The intervening centuries of its residence seemingly elsewhere might account for its presence (in relatively small percentages of modern populations, but with great variance of STRs, and a wide variety of branch-defining SNPs, not yet found farther west) in places that are very far to the north, east, and southeast of the Paris Basin. If those more remote samples (from Scandinavia to Armenia, and from many of the locales between, that are thus far represented by a significant sample) represented a "reflux" from an Iberian homeland, they should uniformly share earlier SNPs (closer to the phylogenetic tree trunk, or "upstream") that these relatively youthful Bronze Age arrivals to Iberia already had. And, by and large, they do not.

What this study's authors see on their microscope slide (if there even is such a thing, these days) does not much resemble what I see on Alex Williamson's Big Tree (for DF27). I see little flags; and a multitude of branches close to the top of the chart; and pink-background samples (from a project prominent in this new Calafell et al paper's data) that cluster together on some branches, but are nowhere to be found on other branches.

And if I back out one click farther, I also see U152 (but not L21).

MitchellSince1893
08-20-2016, 03:55 PM
In my experience, STR dating provides more recent dates compared to the SNP dating methodology.

As time passes there is more opportunity for STRs to revert back to earlier values and thus appear to have fewer changes, rendering more recent dates.

Because of this, unless it's within the last 1000 years I would give more weight to SNP dating.

GoldenHind
08-20-2016, 09:19 PM
I am inclined to agree with Wiborg that the Myres/Busby data is insufficient to be regarded as definitive on the division of P312 in Germany, and that there might be regions where the numbers could be considerably different. I think the Genomes of the Netherlands Project is much more indicative. First the sample was larger (500). More importantly, while DF27 itself wasn't tested, Z195 was, as well as DF19, DF99 and L238. This allows a much better determination of what portion of the P312(XU152,L21) is DF27.

Out of the 500 samples in the Dutch study, 93 or 18.6% of the total were P312 (the remainder were other HGs or U106). The most numerous P312 subclade was U152 (36 or 8.2% of the total 500). The next most numerous P312 subclade was Z195 (22 or 4.4%). After subtracting those who were L21 (16), DF19 (10), DF99 (4) and L238 (0), the remaining P312 numbered only 5, or 1%. This latter group by definition has to be either DF27(XZ195) or P312**. I would guess that perhaps four of those five are DF27(XZ195). DF27 as a whole then is likely to be somewhere around 5% of the total sample, but 28% of the P312 portion, and the second largest P312 subclade..

I suspect Germany overall is likely to very similar, though I would not be surprised if there were areas in Germany where the figures are quite different.

Arch
10-27-2016, 04:41 AM
No duh! C'mon really? We're still arguing over this nonsense? DF27 originated from somewhere. What difference does it make? Case closed.

Arch
10-27-2016, 04:45 AM
Srsly. We need to chillax over this. Who gives a rat's booty where DF27 originated? We'll never find the answer. Let's find something more meaningful like where the downstream clades are most concentrated and if we get ancient DNA, wonderful!

Arch
10-27-2016, 04:50 AM
You have failed to support your argument here. In fact, it's quite flimsy. First, the logical fallacies of appeal are all to obvious. You're not preaching to a choir. I'm very much undecided on origins and somewhat leaning nihilist that we'll ever find the answer to DF27's origins. You're merely grasping for straws to make a conclusion and trying to state such as fact using weak evidence to support your argument - Citations please.

curiousII
06-14-2017, 01:26 AM
http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/f/122061/1192018/1196740678430/HomelandSecurity1492.jpg?token=2s2sZkCSt14T2AETxJm 7g6SAETc%3D

I take online community college classes every so often, one I'm enrolled in now deals with Latin American issues. One of the texts: http://www.wwnorton.com/college/history/born-in-blood-and-fire3/welcome.aspx

I think it's going to be interesting for me as I get to work in my personal DNA results and hopefully that of one or two DF27's I've spoken with. I took an autosomal CODIS marker test with an FTDNA rival a few years back and it returned with a mess of hits in South America, said to be Native American. That wasn't repeated at FTDNA, and the conclusion I get is that those hits were really DF27 from Iberian colonists.

The spread of DF27 through Iberia from its source to the UK and New World is well-represented in, at least, South America. In just a few hundred years the Spanish and Portuguese colonists left their genetic boot prints all over the Indian tribes and imported African slaves. Skimming through the text I've found at least one reference to the Iberian's efforts to "whiten" Latin America. This alone could explain the diverse ethnic nature of those having DF27, why their autosomal tests come back so far removed from one another's.

All this should make for good homework. I know the Native Americans in the photo are North American, but any takers on which one of them is already DF27? Ric?

Menchaca
06-14-2017, 03:09 AM
On the other hand, the Apaches also had the practice of kidnapping women and children and then raising the little ones as their own. One famous case was of a boy with last name Muzquiz which was kidnapped here in the state of Coahuila and became the Apache leader Alsate:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsate

I don't think I have seen any Muzquiz male have his Y haplogroup determined, but the odds are good they are DF27.