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Arame
05-29-2016, 08:39 AM
Let's post maps here.

This maps are made by Balanovski

J2 whole

http://генофонд.рф/wp-content/uploads/2.31-500x498.jpg

And this is the J2-M67

http://генофонд.рф/wp-content/uploads/2.32-500x500.jpg

Viktor Reznov
05-29-2016, 02:19 PM
And this is the J2-M67

http://генофонд.рф/wp-content/uploads/2.32-500x500.jpg
Interesting peak in the Italian peninsula. I think more research there would be wonderful.
M92 only has 3 subclades:Z500(which I belong to), found in the eastern Mediterranean region. Y4036, which I do not know much about but is found among Cypriots and Jews so it's probably similar to Z500, and Z7671 which is found mainly(as far as I know) in the caucasus region. The distinction is pretty clear so it should be pretty easy to figure out how it got to Italy.

psaglav
05-29-2016, 03:08 PM
Interesting peak in the Italian peninsula. I think more research there would be wonderful.
M92 only has 3 subclades:Z500(which I belong to), found in the eastern Mediterranean region. Y4036, which I do not know much about but is found among Cypriots and Jews so it's probably similar to Z500, and Z7671 which is found mainly(as far as I know) in the caucasus region. The distinction is pretty clear so it should be pretty easy to figure out how it got to Italy.

My father is also under Z500 (M92 for now) and has only three very low level (12) matches. Two from Armenia, one Pontic Greek.

Arame
11-16-2016, 07:48 AM
Proportions of J2
http://pereformat.ru/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/haplomap-J2-new.jpg

Edward J
11-17-2016, 11:10 PM
What's the Finnish J2 on the first map? Saami?

ChrisR
11-28-2016, 12:41 PM
Proportions of J2
Interesting approach and frequency visualization. May I ask about the source and amount of used samples?

Arame
11-29-2016, 07:16 AM
Edward

It is J2b in Finland. But the sample size is small according Balanovski. Tmrca is also young as far as i know.
http://xn--c1acc6aafa1c.xn--p1ai/wp-content/uploads/2.33-497x500.jpg

Arame
11-29-2016, 07:18 AM
Chris

It is made by a Russian guy Rozhanski. He has a lot off diagrams and dendrograms. He publish them in pereformat.ru. The sample size. I don't know. But he usually agregates both commercial and academic data.

Gravetto-Danubian
11-29-2016, 07:32 AM
Interesting approach and frequency visualization. May I ask about the source and amount of used samples?

Chris, has there been much headway into J2b of Europe ? Sublcades ?

ChrisR
11-29-2016, 03:37 PM
It is made by a Russian guy Rozhanski. He has a lot off diagrams and dendrograms. He publish them in pereformat.ru. The sample size. I don't know. But he usually agregates both commercial and academic data.

Thanks for referencing. I found the original comment of Igor Lvovich Rozhansky to a blog post of Anatoly Klyosov (http://pereformat.ru/2016/09/rezultaty-testirovaniya/#comment-16154) on the Academy of DNA-Genealogy page which is also published in the haplomaps page (http://dna-academy.ru/haplomaps/) by Rozhansky.

I now go on a rant but I can't agree to most of what Klyosov, Elhaik, et al. hypothesize with non-referencing, unbalanced and unscientific approach and research. Additionally their over-confidence and the uncollegial, supremacist writing and communication style undermines most if not any necessary scientific discussion of such anti-main-consensus hypotheses. If Bing-Translate is not totally wrong alone the above blog post has enough sentences to kill my interest like
I must say that there are only a few people who could carry out the interpretation in such a way, as they spend in the Academy of DNA-Genealogy. But if without false modesty, just the two of them is a member of the Academy of DNA-Genealogy I.L. Rozhansky, and the author of this essay [Klyosov].
So I rather avoid publications from Klyosov, DNA-Genealogy and affiliated persons, even if the collected data (unreferenced from third party) ist presented in interesting ways and there would be ground to discuss statistical and mathematical approaches.

If anyone here want's to dig into this here some useful links of the long history of Klyosov et followers vs almost all genetic scientists, anthropologists and genetic genealogists:

http://file.scirp.org/pdf/AA20120200004_71596882.pdf Klyosov, Rozhansky 2012: anatomically modern humans Out-of-West-Eurasia = "anti Out-of-Africa"
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v22/n9/abs/ejhg2013303a.html Elhaik, Tatarinova, Klyosov, Graur 2014: ‘extremely ancient’ chromosome that isn’t (Bonus: Youtube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ7qXRKL5pg&feature=youtu.be))
http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms13468 Elhaik, Tatarinova, et al 2014/2016 Corrigendum: Geographic population structure

http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2011/11/falsification-in-action.html on Y-STR only estimates for ancient population research
https://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2014/05/08/are-modern-jews-descendants-of-converts-from-the-extinct-kingdom-of-khazaria-or-ancient-israel/ on Ehaik and Jews from Khazaria
http://popgen.us/2014/01/27/critique-age-origin-ancestor-human-y-chr-adam/ controversy age and origin “Y-Adam”
http://trv-science.ru/2015/01/13/dnk-demagogiya-kljosova/ Balanovskaja, Borinskaya, and many other Russian academics on Klyosov and DNA-Genealogy
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/debunking/theories Balding, Kennett, et al
https://www.facebook.com/groups/isogg/permalink/10154816482962922/ Erlich et al discussion on GPS academics software ethics

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7623-Evidence-for-African-and-Middle-Eastern-ancestry-in-Bell-Beaker-and-implications&p=167210&highlight=Klyosov#post167210 Jean M
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7623-Evidence-for-African-and-Middle-Eastern-ancestry-in-Bell-Beaker-and-implications&p=167214&highlight=Klyosov#post167214 R.Rocca
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8718-quot-Out-of-Africa-quot-et-theories-alternatives&p=192091&highlight=Klyosov#post192091 Megalophias
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?828-STR-Wars-GDs-TMRCA-estimates-Variance-Mutation-Rates-amp-SNP-counting&p=182507&highlight=Klyosov#post182507 Huntergatherer1066
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3474-Bell-Beakers-Gimbutas-and-R1b&p=179265&highlight=Klyosov#post179265 Kopfjäger

NOTE: please open a new thread to discuss this. I do not want to hijack this thread, just to give some unaware a broader insight. Too many do not know all about the "at least questionable" figures in the field.

ChrisR
11-29-2016, 03:55 PM
Chris, has there been much headway into J2b of Europe ? Sublcades ?
Nothing substantial. Together with other channels you may follow http://j2-m172.info/category/m172/m102/

ddugas
12-14-2016, 02:37 PM
J-FGC9961 is a subclade of J-L24 under the F3133 branch.

Map of confirmed haplotypes is here:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1YOL-YUiWEcn8HZL9lcGS0_ZCgnE&hl=en&usp=sharing

Its strongest frequency seems to be the Arab/Persian Gulf region. It has been found in Brahui sample as well. In europe it is very rare and quite widespread though Spain, Italy and Rhine seem to predominate the dozen or so ancestral haplotypes.

Some near eastern populations where we find FGC9961:

Arab (many)
Brahui (1)
Kurdish (1)
Iranian (4)
Azerbaijan
Armenian (3)
Mountain Jewish (1)
Iraqi (2)
Kyrgyz (1)
Lebanon (1)
Israel (1)
Sephardic (1)

I personally think this clade is about 5000-8000 years old and originates with Jiroft, Elam or other nearby civilization. It is also noteworthy Grugni 2012, posits an iranian origin for J-L24 the parent clade of FGC9961.

patrizio22
12-29-2016, 07:16 PM
Interesting peak in the Italian peninsula. I think more research there would be wonderful.
M92 only has 3 subclades:Z500(which I belong to), found in the eastern Mediterranean region. Y4036, which I do not know much about but is found among Cypriots and Jews so it's probably similar to Z500, and Z7671 which is found mainly(as far as I know) in the caucasus region. The distinction is pretty clear so it should be pretty easy to figure out how it got to Italy.

It would be interesting if some eventually got interested in y dna J2a with regard to the origin of italic language and tribes (outside the classic pattern: proto celts, proto germanics and proto italics from bronze age central europe).

In the core area of the first italic tribes, in Umbria and Marche (on the right hand side of tuscany) and further south in Lazio (Rome) and Abruzzo there are percentages of J2 of 25 per cent and only 35 per cent R1b, whereas in northern Italy and Tuscany there's 50 or 60 per cent R1b. It means that in the original italic area (central italy) there is a higher percentage of J2 than in Southern Italy where there's plenty of archaeological traces of iron age Greeks and Illyrian type folks and also a vast migration from the byzantine empire after the fall of the roman empire.

I'm from the Marche, on the adriatic side, and despite having traced my italian lineage in central italy back to the early 18th century, I have, according to the genographic project, 26 per cent asia minor component. On different forums, other italians, especially from Marche and Abruzzo (the central Adriatic coast) were surprised to find similar percentages.

I think there must have been during the bronze age a X population (within the bronze age apennine culture) from somewhere east who was later joined by people carrying y dna R1b u152 (proto villanovan?). And the italic languages may be the result of that.

vettor
12-29-2016, 07:27 PM
It would be interesting if some eventually got interested in y dna J2a with regard to the origin of italic language and tribes (outside the classic pattern: proto celts, proto germanics and proto italics from bronze age central europe).

In the core area of the first italic tribes, in Umbria and Marche (on the right hand side of tuscany) and further south in Lazio (Rome) and Abruzzo there are percentages of J2a of nearly 30 per cent and only 35 or 40 per cent R1b, whereas in northern Italy and Tuscany there's 50, 60 or even 70 per cent R1b. It means that in the italic area (central italy) there is a higher percentage of J2 than in Southern Italy where there's plenty of archaeological traces of iron age Greeks and Illyrian type folks and also a vast migration from the byzantine empire after the fall of the roman empire.

I'm from the Marche, on the adriatic side, and despite having traced my italian lineage back to the early 18th century, I have, according to the genographic project, 26 per cent asia minor component. On different forums, other italians, especially from Marche and Abruzzo (the central Adriatic coast) were surprised to find similar percentages.

I think there must have been during the bronze age a X population from somewhere east who was later joined by people carrying y dna R1b u152. And the italic languages may be the result of that.

This came from Eupedia site today

Italic J2a1. That branch is Z435, immediately downstream of L70.

All L70 carriers today descend from a single patrilineal ancestor who lived about 5,000 years ago, when the Proto-Indo-Europeans started invading Central Europe from the Pontic Steppe. Indeed, a lot of J2a1-L70 are now found in Northeast Europe and Central Asia, which suggests an Indo-European dispersal from the steppes.

Z435 has a TMRCA of only 3,100 years, which corresponds roughly to the timing of the invasion of Italian peninsula by Italic tribes from the Alps. Z435 has numerous subclades of its own, and most have been identified in central Italy. The PF5456 subclade is barely 2500 years old, and would have emerged and propagated after the founding of Rome. Outside Italy, it is now found in such varied places as Spain, France, England, Belgium, southern Germany, Austria, Bulgaria or Tunisia, all regions colonised by the Romans. It would be very hard to explain how this 2500 year-old clade spread so far and wide around Europe if it weren't for the Romans.

Z2177, another subclade of Z435, is a bit under 3,000 years old and, although rare, it is found today in places like Tuscany, Sardinia and Spain, which also suggests a Roman connection.

patrizio22
12-29-2016, 07:41 PM
This came from Eupedia site today

Italic J2a1. That branch is Z435, immediately downstream of L70.

All L70 carriers today descend from a single patrilineal ancestor who lived about 5,000 years ago, when the Proto-Indo-Europeans started invading Central Europe from the Pontic Steppe. Indeed, a lot of J2a1-L70 are now found in Northeast Europe and Central Asia, which suggests an Indo-European dispersal from the steppes.

Z435 has a TMRCA of only 3,100 years, which corresponds roughly to the timing of the invasion of Italian peninsula by Italic tribes from the Alps. Z435 has numerous subclades of its own, and most have been identified in central Italy. The PF5456 subclade is barely 2500 years old, and would have emerged and propagated after the founding of Rome. Outside Italy, it is now found in such varied places as Spain, France, England, Belgium, southern Germany, Austria, Bulgaria or Tunisia, all regions colonised by the Romans. It would be very hard to explain how this 2500 year-old clade spread so far and wide around Europe if it weren't for the Romans.

Z2177, another subclade of Z435, is a bit under 3,000 years old and, although rare, it is found today in places like Tuscany, Sardinia and Spain, which also suggests a Roman connection.


So, the proto italics from central Europe theory seems to be confirmed. This L70 seems to be a new snp linked to the indo europeans. Unfortunately, the percentages available for Italy online were only for Y dna J2 without subclades.

What puzzles me is that the Gauls, who apparently had the same patrilineal ancestor as the Italics ( unless I'm mistaken) which means R1b u152, didn't seem to have the same kind of admixture. At least, contemporary populations where the Gauls lived, France (save the atlantic coast) and Northern Italy.


So, if this L70 was carried by indo european migrants, does it mean a caucasian origin (Maykop)?

Edward J
12-29-2016, 08:22 PM
Interesting...I had not heard that theory before (L70 having a Steppe origin). If L70 came from the Steppe, what about Z-387 (the clade above L70)?

patrizio22
12-31-2016, 06:50 AM
Two threads showing percentages of 25 or 30 per cent or even more of asia minor admixture in Italy It is way more than what you get in Greece.


http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?t=37322

http://www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/genetic-genealogy/33952

ddugas
01-04-2017, 04:00 PM
I don't want to throw cold water on a working theory, but I just have to interject on this idea that a subclade of L70 has come to europe from the Pontic Steppe. It's just not a likely scenario at all.

first, look at the parent clade L70, which in itself is quite young. It peaks in Southern Anatolia (Underhill King data) at about 12%. This is very high for such a young subclade as L70. Its presence spreads from there along the coasts of the mediterranean-northern levant. It has another peak in western Sicily at approx. 11% (Roy King data).

Z435 and PF5456 also have major clusters which are Jewish.

When we look at L70 data in the near east, it drops dramatically as you move away from the coast; it is very rare in the Pontic Steppe and certainly this clade has migrated to italy via maritime routes of the mediterranean. From there, yes, certainly it could have migrated to other areas of europe with the romans, but the idea that it has somehow come to Italy via land migrations from Eastern europe, caucasus, just isn't supported at all.

L70 is the quintessential Mediterranean/maritime marker and without a doubt it was brought to Europe via the Med from the Levant and Southern Anatolia. From this point, yes, a connection to the Romans makes sense.

ashkenazi
05-31-2017, 06:33 PM
Your thoughts regarding L70's diffusion from the Levant/ Southern Anatolia seem spot on; I never bought into the idea that it came from the steppe along with R1b. You mentioned data about L70's frequency in different parts of the near east - particularly data from Underhill, King, and Roy. If you could please share a link to the studies/ data I would really appreciate it. Thanks!

ddugas
06-08-2017, 01:28 PM
sorry for the delay in replying, just caught your response... Here is a link to data on J2 445=6 in Anatolia:

https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-11-69

And the sicily data can be found here:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/fig_tab/ejhg2008120t1.html#figure-title

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/full/ejhg2008120a.html

We are relying on the STR DYS 445=6 which is a characteristic unique to J-Z387 haplotypes to infer these percentages

In any event, the text in the papers above also notes that the DYS 391=9 subset of DYS 445=6 J2's peaks along the mediterranean coasts.

Hope this is helpful. They are old papers but very relevant to what we now know is J-L70.

ashkenazi
07-28-2017, 10:55 PM
Thank you! This is super helpful!

Hedda Gabler
09-13-2017, 10:16 AM
J2 among steppe populations, Caucasia, Iran and Eastern-Central Europe = J2b subclade. J2 among certain Semites and Southern Europe= J2a subclade.