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JohnHowellsTyrfro
05-30-2016, 05:42 AM
I included this link in another thread, but I thought it might be worthwhile to have a separate thread on it. Perhaps others with more scientific knowledge will comment on the validity of the theories.
One thing which struck me was the possibility that during plague events, particularly in Britain, increased vulnerability of "celtic" group "O" people could have affected some of the patterns of genetic distribution we see in modern populations? I understand that plague deaths were particularly high in East Anglia, amongst other places. Is it possible that to some extent "celtic" descendants were affected more by plague deaths than other groups?

"The Black Plague is especially interesting from a perspective of the ABO blood groups, since Yersinia is a bacteria with a preference for individuals of specific ABO group, in this case, group O. (4,5)

The effects of ABO blood group on survival against most forms of epidemic illness is so distinct that a modern day map of the ABO blood group distribution in Europe closely parallels the locations of major epidemics, with higher densities of blood group A and lower frequencies of blood group O in areas historically known to have had long histories of repeated pandemics. "

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi3ktDQof_MAhXpD8AKHUZaD_kQFghPMAs&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dadamo.com%2Ftxt%2Findex.pl%3 F1010&usg=AFQjCNGFseiHWrt8h8rTVbfRElW2F_2Qdg

loisrp
05-30-2016, 08:22 AM
On Promethease, I have the single gene for increased bacterial resistance/increased susceptibility to celiac disease, which I believe is linked to plague survival. Interestingly, Promethease "guessed" I am blood type A, which is wrong -- I am blood type O. I am curious if this mistake is made with others.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
05-30-2016, 12:23 PM
On Promethease, I have the single gene for increased bacterial resistance/increased susceptibility to celiac disease, which I believe is linked to plague survival. Interestingly, Promethease "guessed" I am blood type A, which is wrong -- I am blood type O. I am curious if this mistake is made with others.

Is the point though that subsequently people may have gained immunity, but at the time the plague arrived certain blood groups may have been more vulnerable than others? I would guess that those who survived and their descendants subsequently had a lower risk, but I'm no scientist. :)

AJL
05-30-2016, 02:11 PM
On Promethease, I have the single gene for increased bacterial resistance/increased susceptibility to celiac disease, which I believe is linked to plague survival. Interestingly, Promethease "guessed" I am blood type A, which is wrong -- I am blood type O. I am curious if this mistake is made with others.

You may have a relatively uncommon blood type like O303.

Unlike the most common O types, O303 has the gene for making A antigens but the protein is non-functioning. This type may have enjoyed a selective advantage during plague.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
05-30-2016, 05:00 PM
This is quite an interesting article on blood group distribution with maps.
Lowest incidence of Rhesus positive around the Basque region in the Pyrenees? (I'm "O" negative myself)

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjPt5r8noLNAhVGD8AKHSF7DNIQjhwIBQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fdscblog.com%2F2012%2F03%2F31%2Fw ho-are-your-blood-types-ancestors%2F&bvm=bv.123325700,d.ZGg&psig=AFQjCNHcz2VEzr4onsRtkEAhfRlWu6AxGg&ust=1464712665123849.


9528

loisrp
05-30-2016, 06:49 PM
I'm also O-negative.
I appreciate the note about O303 - more research to look at!

rock hunter
05-30-2016, 08:29 PM
I am A+ and have a born immunity to smallpox. I am also that oddball G-2.
The military tried 8 times over the years to inoculate me
before they admitted this and they gave up trying.
(But that empty box on the shot card drove the doctors crazy)

I later learned that at least 10% of the European population as well as
Eurasians and to a lesser degree African populations
are also born with this mutated CCR5 gene that prevents smallpox
viruses from hijacking the CCR5 -32 protein or something like that and they also
cannot be infected which explained my service to my country as a pincushion .

It is believed that this mutated CCR5 is also why the Bubonic plague
has not made a major resurgence for several hundred years and that it may
also make one slightly more resistance to HIV infection .

Amerijoe
05-30-2016, 09:13 PM
:noidea:Promethease still trying to identify my blood type.

ABO blood type unknown
rs8176719(I;I)
rs8176746(A;C)
rs8176747(C;G)
rs8176719(I;I) indicates you are not type-O
rs8176746(A;C) and rs8176747(C;G) suggests you are not type-A. rs8176746(A;C) and rs8176747(C;G) suggests you are not type-B
you were not genotyped at either rs590787 nor i4001527 so it is impossible to see your Rh blood type

rock hunter
05-31-2016, 01:40 AM
Langereis or Junior blood types ?
Two new blood types identified
Date:
February 23, 2012
Source:
University of Vermont
Summary:
You probably know your blood type: A, B, AB or O. You may even know if you're Rhesus positive or negative. But how about the Langereis blood type? Or the Junior blood type? Positive or negative? Most people have never even heard of these. Yet this knowledge could be "a matter of life and death."says University of Vermont biologist Bryan Ballif.



While blood transfusion problems due to Langereis and Junior blood types are rare worldwide, several ethnic populations are at risk, Ballif notes. "More than 50,000 Japanese are thought to be Junior negative and may encounter blood transfusion problems or mother-fetus incompatibility," he writes.

But the molecular basis of these two blood types has remained a mystery -- until now.

In the February issue of Nature Genetics, Ballif and his colleagues report on their discovery of two proteins on red blood cells responsible for these lesser-known blood types.

Ballif identified the two molecules as specialized transport proteins named ABCB6 and ABCG2.

"Only 30 proteins have previously been identified as responsible for a basic blood type," Ballif notes, "but the count now reaches 32."

The last new blood group proteins to be discovered were nearly a decade ago, Ballif says, "so it's pretty remarkable to have two identified this year."

Both of the newly identified proteins are also associated with anticancer drug resistance, so the findings may also have implications for improved treatment of breast and other cancers.

As part of the international effort, Ballif, assistant professor in the biology department, used a mass spectrometer at UVM funded by the Vermont Genetics Network. With this machine, he analyzed proteins purified by his longtime collaborator, Lionel Arnaud at the French National Institute for Blood Transfusion in Paris, France.

Ballif and Arnaud, in turn, relied on antibodies to Langereis and Junior blood antigens developed by Yoshihiko Tani at the Japanese Red Cross Osaka Blood Center and Toru Miyasaki at the Japanese Red Cross Hokkaido Blood Center.

After the protein identification in Vermont, the work returned to France. There Arnaud and his team conducted cellular and genetic tests confirming that these proteins were responsible for the Langereis and Junior blood types. "He was able to test the gene sequence," Ballif says, "and, sure enough, we found mutations in this particular gene for all the people in our sample who have these problems."

Transfusion troubles

Beyond the ABO blood type and the Rhesus (Rh) blood type, the International Blood Transfusion Society recognizes twenty-eight additional blood types with names like Duffy, Kidd, Diego and Lutheran. But Langereis and Junior have not been on this list. Although the antigens for the Junior and Langereis (or Lan) blood types were identified decades ago in pregnant women having difficulties carrying babies with incompatible blood types, the genetic basis of these antigens has been unknown until now.

Therefore, "very few people learn if they are Langereis or Junior positive or negative," Ballif says.

"Transfusion support of individuals with an anti-Lan antibody is highly challenging," the research team wrote in Nature Genetics, "partly because of the scarcity of compatible blood donors but mainly because of the lack of reliable reagents for blood screening." And Junior-negative blood donors are extremely rare too. That may soon change.

With the findings from this new research, health care professionals will now be able to more rapidly and confidently screen for these novel blood group proteins, Ballif wrote in a recent news article. "This will leave them better prepared to have blood ready when blood transfusions or other tissue donations are required," he notes.

"Now that we know these proteins, it will become a routine test," he says.

A better match

This science may be especially important to organ transplant patients. "As we get better and better at transplants, we do everything we can to make a good match," Ballif says. But sometimes a tissue or organ transplant, that looked like a good match, doesn't work -- and the donated tissue is rejected, which can lead to many problems or death.

"We don't always know why there is rejection," Ballif says, "but it may have to do with these proteins."

The rejection of donated tissue or blood is caused by the way the immune system distinguishes self from not-self. "If our own blood cells don't have these proteins, they're not familiar to our immune system," Ballif says, so the new blood doesn't "look like self" to the complex cellular defenses of the immune system. "They'll develop antibodies against it," Ballif says, and try to kill off the perceived invaders. In short, the body starts to attack itself.

"Then you may be out of luck," says Ballif, who notes that in addition to certain Japanese populations, European Gypsies are also at higher risk for not carrying the Langereis and Junior blood type proteins.

"There are people in the United States who have these challenges too," he says, "but it's more rare."

Other proteins

Ballif and his international colleagues are not done with their search. "We're following up on more unknown blood types," he says. "There are probably on the order of 10 to 15 more of these unknown blood type systems -- where we know there is a problem but we don't know what the protein is that is causing the problem."

Although these other blood systems are very rare, "if you're that one individual, and you need a transfusion," Ballif says, "there's nothing more important for you to know."

Story Source:

The above post is reprinted from materials provided by University of Vermont. The original item was written by Joshua E. Brown. Note: Materials may be edited for content and length.

Journal Reference:

Virginie Helias, Carole Saison, Bryan A Ballif, Thierry Peyrard, Junko Takahashi, Hideo Takahashi, Mitsunobu Tanaka, Jean-Charles Deybach, Hervť Puy, Maude Le Gall, Camille Sureau, Bach-Nga Pham, Pierre-Yves Le Pennec, Yoshihiko Tani, Jean-Pierre Cartron, Lionel Arnaud. ABCB6 is dispensable for erythropoiesis and specifies the new blood group system Langereis. Nature Genetics, 2012; 44 (2): 170 DOI: 10.1038/ng.1069

JohnHowellsTyrfro
05-31-2016, 05:01 AM
I've read a few articles along the lines of "scientists baffled" by Rhesus negative blood types. Anyone know if this is true or exaggeration please? I know from my own experience of giving blood that being "O" negative makes you a universal donor.

geebee
05-31-2016, 11:11 AM
:noidea:Promethease still trying to identify my blood type.

ABO blood type unknown
rs8176719(I;I)
rs8176746(A;C)
rs8176747(C;G)
rs8176719(I;I) indicates you are not type-O
rs8176746(A;C) and rs8176747(C;G) suggests you are not type-A. rs8176746(A;C) and rs8176747(C;G) suggests you are not type-B
you were not genotyped at either rs590787 nor i4001527 so it is impossible to see your Rh blood type

Contrary to what Promethease implies, rs8176719 II does not "indicate you are not type-O" -- at least not with certainty.

The problem with Promethease's claim is that it's based on a presumption known to be false: that all O alleles have a deletion (indicated by "D" or "-") at rs8176719. It's true that most do, but there are also some "nondeletional" O alleles. AJL mentioned the most common one, which is O303.

This allele has "I" at rs8176719, and "T" at rs41302905. So someone -- like my father -- can have rs8176719 II but still have an O allele; and someone else -- like me, my youngest sister, and my daughter -- can have rs8176719 DI but still have two O alleles and therefore have type O blood.

As it happens, my second O allele is of the "deletional" variety. I inherited O112 from my mother. My daughter inherited O303 from me, and O112 from her mother. We both have always been typed unambiguously as O, and the only reason we know one of our alleles is anything "unusual" is because of 23andMe.

However ... it actually isn't that unusual to begin with. Some sources suggest that up to 3% of persons from European populations may have a nondeletional O allele. What's more, references to "common" ABO alleles typically include O303 in this category.

So it seems virtually certain that someone has two copies of this allele. If so, they would show rs8176719 II in DNA testing, yet be O. In fact, using the 3% figure and considering even just half of 23andMe's customers as "European" (or having European ancestry), one might expect that over 450 23andMe customers fit this description.

estevard
06-01-2016, 06:23 AM
On Promethease, I have the single gene for increased bacterial resistance/increased susceptibility to celiac disease, which I believe is linked to plague survival. Interestingly, Promethease "guessed" I am blood type A, which is wrong -- I am blood type O. I am curious if this mistake is made with others.

They guessed mine correctly, even with limited data:


best guess:

ABO blood type probA

rs8176746(C;C)

you were not genotyped at rs8176719 so it is impossible to see type-O. This is a MAJOR limitation of your data
rs8176746(C;C) and no genotype for rs8176747, reasonable to assume type-A
you were not genotyped at either rs590787 nor i4001527 so it is impossible to see your Rh blood type


I'm A+

Judith
01-03-2017, 03:43 PM
http://mtdnaatlas.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/natural-selection-did-it.html#comment-form

I found this comment elsewhere by a different Romulus suggesting that hunter gatherers could have been Rh negative and hence why the new arrivals particularly H mtDNA became dominant.
Basques are accepted as typically early farmers as are Sardinians, and Basques are particularly Rh negative and perhaps many other early farmers were too?
But all H clades are not equally as dominant: H4 is not common and there are many other higher numbers which are rare and not recent too. If some came from the Levant (as H4 may have because it has been found in early farmers in Spain (Olade 2015)), then H4 as potentially early farmers may have also been affected by being part of a Rh negative community.
I am no biologist and hence this is proposed in ignorance of the mechanisms involved but I have found that only Europe has Rh negative which was colder with no ecological disadvantage.
Any thoughts guys?

backdrop12
05-01-2017, 09:46 PM
:noidea:Promethease still trying to identify my blood type.

ABO blood type unknown
rs8176719(I;I)
rs8176746(A;C)
rs8176747(C;G)
rs8176719(I;I) indicates you are not type-O
rs8176746(A;C) and rs8176747(C;G) suggests you are not type-A. rs8176746(A;C) and rs8176747(C;G) suggests you are not type-B
you were not genotyped at either rs590787 nor i4001527 so it is impossible to see your Rh blood type

Same here . Luckily tho I donate blood and they said I was A+

in terms of blood resistance . I am resistant to malaria ( Duffy +), some strains of HIV, and Mad cow Disease. I find that to be pretty cool

I am also a carrier of Alpha-thalassemia . So I hope none of my kids ever gets it :C.

geebee
05-02-2017, 05:51 PM
I don't know why the folks at Promethease are as stubborn as they are.

Out of curiosity -- to see if they might actually have learned anything in the time since I last had a report done -- I paid my $5 and got a new report.

The result? Promethease confidently asserts that I'm type A. Well, I'm not. I am type O. Furthermore, I couldn't be type A, since my father was type B and my mother was also type B. (And, yes, I know they really were my parents.)

Here's the analysis:


rs8176719(D;I)
rs8176746(C;C)
rs8176747(G;G)
rs8176719(D;I) indicates you have one type-O allele
rs8176746(C;C) and rs8176747(G;G) suggests you are type-A
you were not genotyped at either rs590787 nor i4001527 so it is impossible to see your Rh blood type

Here's the problem. Several nondeletional O alleles have identified to date, yet for some reason the folks at Promethease don't seem to recognize that fact.

Yet not only do nondeletional O alleles exist, one of them is among the "6 common ABO alleles in white individuals". Here's the list: ABO*A101 (A1), ABO*A201 (A2), ABO*B101 (B1), ABO*O01 (O1), ABO*O02 (O1v), and ABO*O03 (O2). ABO*O03 (O2) is the one that's nondeletional. http://www.bloodjournal.org/content/102/8/3035?sso-checked=true

I happen to have both O1v (O112) and O03 (O303), which is why I'm type-O instead of type-A. I inherited the O303 from my father, who had a B101 allele and an O303 allele. If the O303 were somehow really an A allele, of course, my father should have been type-AB, but he was type B. I inherited the O112 allele from my mother, who had B101 and O112. One other sibling inherited my father's O303 allele, along with my mother's O112 allele. Another sibling inherited a B101 allele from each parent; and the remaining three siblings inherited the B101 allele from our father and the O112 allele from our mother.

All Promethease has to do to resolve at least some of the predictions that they either get wrong or are unable to make is add rs41302905 to the list of SNPs they use to determine blood type. In the vast majority of cases, a "T" at rs41302905 will indicate an O allele just as surely as a "D" at rs8176719. If you happen to have both -- as I do -- then you probably are type-O. (With one deletional and one nondeletional O allele.)

EDIT: I know this may be almost a "double post", but my guess is that rs41302905 is the explanation for many of the blood type predictions that Promethease either can't make, or gets wrong. So if you fall into that category, be sure to check your results at this SNP.

2nd EDIT: Looks like Promethease would have done well to ignore the three SNPs it used to determine my blood type and just have gone with rs505922 (T;T). For this one, my Promethease report says that SNPedia shows "blood type O".

Silesian
09-21-2017, 03:37 PM
I've read a few articles along the lines of "scientists baffled" by Rhesus negative blood types. Anyone know if this is true or exaggeration please? I know from my own experience of giving blood that being "O" negative makes you a universal donor.

Are you aware ancient mummies[KV55] have also been tested for their blood type; going back to the late 60's?
Article
Nature 224, 325-326 (25 October 1969) | doi:10.1038/224325b0; Received 13 October 1969
Kinship of Smenkhkare and Tutankhamen affirmed by Serological Micromethod: Kinship of Smenkhkare and Tutankhamen demonstrated Serologically?

R. G. HARRISON, R. C. CONNOLLY & A. ABDALLA

Department of Anatomy, University of Liverpool.
Department of Anatomy, University of Cairo.
NatureISSN: 0028-0836EISSN: 1476-4687
https://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v224/n5217/pdf/224325b0.pdf


We have a better understanding of Hunter Gatherer European blood types thanks to the following;
The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe
page 54 will give you details of blood types among ancient European samples.

http://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorx...4/135616-1.pdf

Rh negative is found in elevated frequencies among Europeans[Basques and Northern Europeans]. Generally low in non admixed Asian and African pop's.
A2 is found in elevated frequencies among Circumpolar groups like;
30%-20%+/-Mountain Lapps-, Norwegian Lapps,Ustujoki Lapps, Fisher Lapps,10-5%Finns,Swedes,Norwegians,Danes,English.
The Human Biology of Circumpolar Populations

Jean M
09-22-2017, 07:27 AM
I included this link in another thread, but I thought it might be worthwhile to have a separate thread on it. Perhaps others with more scientific knowledge will comment on the validity of the theories.

Iain Mathieson posted on his blog yesterday: Blood groups in ancient Europe

http://mathii.github.io/2017/09/21/blood-groups-in-ancient-europe

He opens:


Human blood groups are interesting from both medical and evolutionary perspectives. Different blood groups confer resistance or susceptibility to a wide range of infectious disease and, likely as a result of this, have been under long-term balancing selection across primates. They also vary dramatically in frequency across human populations and, probably, across time as well. Here, we use ancient DNA to estimate the frequencies of the two most commonly discussed groups - specifically the ABO and Rhesus systems - in Europe over the past ten thousand years. We show that some ancient populations of Europe had blood group frequencies that were more extreme than any present-day population. In particular, Mesolithic hunter-gatherers had a higher frequency of type O than any present-day population, and both hunter-gatherers and bronze-age steppe populations had a higher frequency of the Rhesus negative allele than any present-day population.

He goes on to give a lot of interesting detail. Not to be missed!

Batroun
09-22-2017, 08:01 AM
I have nothing scientific to contribute but I am A+ if that speaks for any East Med or Levantine people. :)

CelticGerman
09-22-2017, 08:40 AM
I am A rh+.
My grandma was B rh-.

Blood types in Germany: A 43%, O 41%, B 11% (9% rh+, 2% rh -), AB 5%.

Edward J
09-22-2017, 12:25 PM
O+ here...

Not sure about my parents

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-22-2017, 12:43 PM
http://mtdnaatlas.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/natural-selection-did-it.html#comment-form

I found this comment elsewhere by a different Romulus suggesting that hunter gatherers could have been Rh negative and hence why the new arrivals particularly H mtDNA became dominant.
Basques are accepted as typically early farmers as are Sardinians, and Basques are particularly Rh negative and perhaps many other early farmers were too?
But all H clades are not equally as dominant: H4 is not common and there are many other higher numbers which are rare and not recent too. If some came from the Levant (as H4 may have because it has been found in early farmers in Spain (Olade 2015)), then H4 as potentially early farmers may have also been affected by being part of a Rh negative community.
I am no biologist and hence this is proposed in ignorance of the mechanisms involved but I have found that only Europe has Rh negative which was colder with no ecological disadvantage.
Any thoughts guys?

I get Basque and Sardinian on tests and I'm O negative, ancestry in West Herefordshire. The link below "Geolinguistics and haematology: the case of Britain" includes blood group distribution in Herefordshire and it is pretty obvious that it is highest in the West of the County with people with Welsh surnames. "The 0 gene frequency
on the western or Welsh side is higher and the A frequency lower
than on the eastern or English side. The difference, however, is not statistically
significant. A further subdivision of the blood donors into those with
English and those with Welsh surnames shows that ęthere is a significant difference
between those with Welsh surnames on the two sides of Offa's DykeĽ
(Watkin 1965b: 93), whereas persons with English surnames are similar on
the two sides of the Dyke."
I'm not really sure though what determines which blood group you inherit - it doesn't appear to be entirely random?

http://www.raco.cat/index.php/LinksLetters/article/download/22680/22515

Lirio100
09-22-2017, 07:42 PM
I am O+, my mother is Rh-, making me heterozygous for the Rh factor. My daughter is A, but Rh negative, meaning her father had an Rh- allele, her father is of 100% Irish descent.

geebee
09-23-2017, 04:34 AM
I get Basque and Sardinian on tests and I'm O negative, ancestry in West Herefordshire. The link below "Geolinguistics and haematology: the case of Britain" includes blood group distribution in Herefordshire and it is pretty obvious that it is highest in the West of the County with people with Welsh surnames. "The 0 gene frequency
on the western or Welsh side is higher and the A frequency lower
than on the eastern or English side. The difference, however, is not statistically
significant. A further subdivision of the blood donors into those with
English and those with Welsh surnames shows that ęthere is a significant difference
between those with Welsh surnames on the two sides of Offa's DykeĽ
(Watkin 1965b: 93), whereas persons with English surnames are similar on
the two sides of the Dyke."
I'm not really sure though what determines which blood group you inherit - it doesn't appear to be entirely random?

http://www.raco.cat/index.php/LinksLetters/article/download/22680/22515

I'll try to be brief in my response.

You don't actually inherit either your ABO blood type or your Rh blood type. (By "ABO" blood type, I mean whether your type is A, B, O, or AB; and by Rh blood I mean whether you are positive or negative.) What you inherit is the result of which of each parent's two ABO and two Rh alleles that you inherit.

For the ABO blood group system, the alleles are A, B, and O. Two A alleles or one A and one O allele will produce an A blood type; two B alleles or one B and one O allele will produce a B blood type; and two O alleles will produce an O blood type.

Notice that the O allele doesn't affect blood type unless you receive a copy of that allele from each parent. That's because it's a "null" allele, meaning it actually is nonfunctional. A and B are both functional. An A allele causes a substance called "H antigen" to be converted to A antigen; a B allele causes H antigen to be converted to B antigen. But there is no O antigen, and O alleles do nothing to H antigen.

So what happens if you inherit an A allele from one parent and a B allele from the other? Well, that's where the AB blood type comes in. Both the A allele and the B allele are functional and are working on that H antigen. Some of it is converted to A antigen, some is converted to B antigen.

The Rh blood group system is similar, but it involves different alleles found on a different chromosome. Specifically, though, the "positive" and "negative" refer to just one factor in the Rh system, which is RhD. If you're positive (+), it only requires that one of your parents passed on an RhD+ allele, because the RhD- allele is another null. So either (+/+) or (+/-) is Rh positive. Only (-/-), meaning an RhD- allele from each parent, results in the Rh negative blood type.

geebee
09-23-2017, 04:56 AM
I'm confused by the associated of mtDNA and blood groups, though. Presumably, the thinking is that the same people who carry a certain mtDNA haplogroup might also predominate in one ABO blood type or another, and one Rh blood type or another. This seems plausible enough, but over time it doesn't seem likely that this connection would continue with any significant mixing of populations.

The means of transmission is different. Your mtDNA haplogroup is exclusively dependent on the line of your mother's mother's mother's mother's (etc.), whereas both your ABO blood type and your Rh blood type may be from any of your lines (since it's passed on through the autosomes -- specifically, chromosome 9 for ABO, and chromosome 1 for Rh).

Over time, the odds would seem to be strongly against your blood type being traceable along the same path as your mtDNA haplogroup. And when I say "over time", it wouldn't necessarily take much time at all for the paths to diverge.

I inherited my mother's O allele, but my mother had both a B allele and an O allele. My mtDNA haplogroup is from my mother's mother, but I have no idea whether my mother's O allele was also from her mother. And even if it was, was it from her mother's mother? Her mother's mother's mother?

As I said, pretty quickly the paths would be almost guaranteed to be different.

Lirio100
09-23-2017, 04:44 PM
My family tree is too mixed to draw a population inference but my ex, while American, is of 100% Republic of Ireland descent does make him a "data point" for Ireland. Since this factor wasn't discovered until 1937 I suspect it's only useful in broad terms, though.

Saetro
09-23-2017, 08:34 PM
My family tree is too mixed to draw a population inference but my ex, while American, is of 100% Republic of Ireland descent does make him a "data point" for Ireland. Since this factor wasn't discovered until 1937 I suspect it's only useful in broad terms, though.

As a Rhesus baby, I think the Rh- factor may be more telling.
I have a distant aunt who had most children die at or shortly after birth.
While I have not been able to absolutely rule out other factors, this suggests where this may have come from.
Wherever it arose, this appears to be one of the few manifestations in my tree. I expected more.

Judith
09-24-2017, 12:32 PM
Having now read the Mathieson blog I have found that my speculation above (quoted by John) could not be more wrong. The early farmers were very low incidence on rh negative and it was the hunter gatherers and Steppe who had a higher rate.
I was speculating at the autosomal population level (in which there were specific maternal lines existing) and how populations may stay separate. But either way my ideas were just plain wrong as new discoveries have proven.
Roll on more fresh discoveries!

Silesian
09-24-2017, 01:28 PM
If memory serves me correct, one of the pioneers Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza built upon A.E. Mourant's work, who in turn built upon Karl Landsteiner work.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1932113/
http://www.generativemedicine.org/wiki/wiki.pl/Luigi_Cavalli-Sforza
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51t9ODAPTaL._SX366_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

A.E Mourant Rh notation was [I]cde with small "d'marking mutation. Depending on the way you parse the data; many useful distinguishing/traits could be gleaned from the most basic mutations in blood, revealing which populations shared common traits.

18971
https://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/cavalli-sforza.png

Lirio100
09-24-2017, 04:38 PM
As a Rhesus baby, I think the Rh- factor may be more telling.
I have a distant aunt who had most children die at or shortly after birth.
While I have not been able to absolutely rule out other factors, this suggests where this may have come from.
Wherever it arose, this appears to be one of the few manifestations in my tree. I expected more.

More obvious, anyway. My mother is Rh-, I am Rh+, and my daughter is Rh-. As I understand it, the first pregnancy
with the mismatch doesn't cause problems, it's the second and subsequent if the mismatch reoccurs.

Amerijoe
09-24-2017, 04:57 PM
Even though Promethease couldnít determine my blood type, it is definitely human, but along with my Ydna puts me in the low percentile with AB+.

Check your blood type by country. Here is a list of some countries with blood group distributions. Some additional info may be available by activating country.

http://www.rhesusnegative.net/themission/bloodtypefrequencies/

Nive1526
09-24-2017, 07:48 PM
I am 0 Rh(D)+ confirmed by being a blood donor.
These are the blood-type related alleles I manually found in my Living DNA raw data.
Promethease will follow next week.

rs8176746 (C;C) indicates type 0
rs8176704 (C;C) Not A2?
rs505922 (T;T) Blood type 0
rs2814778 (A;A) Duffy-Positive
rs121912762 (T;T) negative for Rh factor D(VII)

Saetro
09-25-2017, 12:53 AM
More obvious, anyway. My mother is Rh-, I am Rh+, and my daughter is Rh-. As I understand it, the first pregnancy
with the mismatch doesn't cause problems, it's the second and subsequent if the mismatch reoccurs.

This is not always reliable when looking at historical records.
Stillbirths are often not recorded.
There could have been one or more before the first live child is born.
Just because the first recorded child shows signs of difficulty does not exclude them from being a Rhesus affected baby.

vettor
09-25-2017, 06:12 PM
This is not always reliable when looking at historical records.
Stillbirths are often not recorded.
There could have been one or more before the first live child is born.
Just because the first recorded child shows signs of difficulty does not exclude them from being a Rhesus affected baby.

Stillbirths are recorded in Italian registries and I have seen them in print for many centuries ( but not church records)

cilldara
09-25-2017, 07:00 PM
I'm A-

avalon
09-27-2017, 01:29 PM
I get Basque and Sardinian on tests and I'm O negative, ancestry in West Herefordshire. The link below "Geolinguistics and haematology: the case of Britain" includes blood group distribution in Herefordshire and it is pretty obvious that it is highest in the West of the County with people with Welsh surnames. "The 0 gene frequency
on the western or Welsh side is higher and the A frequency lower
than on the eastern or English side. The difference, however, is not statistically
significant. A further subdivision of the blood donors into those with
English and those with Welsh surnames shows that ęthere is a significant difference
between those with Welsh surnames on the two sides of Offa's DykeĽ


Here's a European map showing frequencies of Blood group O. It comes from the same studies you cite which were originally carried out by Morgan Watkin in the 1950/1960s. I'm not sure if blood groups can tell us that much, but it is interesting to note the high frequencies of O in the more Celtic parts of the Isles and in the Basque country. I think this, plus the high R1b in these areas must have shaped the thinking of geneticists 10-15 years ago when the conventional wisdom was that R1b came out of Iberia to the Isles.

Another thing that intrigued me from these 1950s studies was that Blood group B, which is generally low in Western Europe, was noted at relatively higher frequencies in the remoter and more mountainous parts of Wales, such as Snowdonia, Black Mountain Brecon beacons and the isolated moors of central Wales. There was also a noted high frequency of B in NE Scotland from another study.

Given that B appears to have been introduced to Europe from the Steppe, there may be something in this..

19020

Lirio100
09-27-2017, 05:33 PM
This is not always reliable when looking at historical records.
Stillbirths are often not recorded.
There could have been one or more before the first live child is born.
Just because the first recorded child shows signs of difficulty does not exclude them from being a Rhesus affected baby.

The problem happens if sensitization occurs when an Rh- mother carries an Rh+ fetus--some of the fetal blood can cross the placenta to the mother, and that causes the sensitization. If the fetus is negative it doesn't happen, and usually the delivery occurs with an Rh+ baby before it can affect the baby. That's why it's the second mismatch that will cause problems due to an Rh factor.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-27-2017, 06:30 PM
The problem happens if sensitization occurs when an Rh- mother carries an Rh+ fetus--some of the fetal blood can cross the placenta to the mother, and that causes the sensitization. If the fetus is negative it doesn't happen, and usually the delivery occurs with an Rh+ baby before it can affect the baby. That's why it's the second mismatch that will cause problems due to an Rh factor.

When I was a blood donor (I gave over 40 pints) the Health Services used to ask me not to miss a session as O negative was often used to help babies. I know O negative is universal donor but never really understood why it was so useful for infants.

Amerijoe
09-27-2017, 08:17 PM
When I was in college, one of my classmates put me on to a blood collecting org. that paid for special blood types. At the time, I didnít give it much thought, because now I had beer money. My particular mix is in high demand for itís therapeutic properties when itís plasma is separated and used. My mother was blood group A and dad must have been either B or AB. AB can receive the various blood groups, can only give blood to other ABs, but itís plasma can be used by all blood groups. So, if any of you need my special elixir, please PM me for payment details. ;)

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-28-2017, 07:53 AM
When I was in college, one of my classmates put me on to a blood collecting org. that paid for special blood types. At the time, I didn’t give it much thought, because now I had beer money. My particular mix is in high demand for it’s therapeutic properties when it’s plasma is separated and used. My mother was blood group A and dad must have been either B or AB. AB can receive the various blood groups, can only give blood to other ABs, but it’s plasma can be used by all blood groups. So, if any of you need my special elixir, please PM me for payment details. ;)

Here in the UK we have a tradition of voluntary donation. Who knows, one day you might need it yourself. :)

Teutorigos
09-28-2017, 08:04 AM
This is quite an interesting article on blood group distribution with maps.
Lowest incidence of Rhesus positive around the Basque region in the Pyrenees? (I'm "O" negative myself)

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjPt5r8noLNAhVGD8AKHSF7DNIQjhwIBQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fdscblog.com%2F2012%2F03%2F31%2Fw ho-are-your-blood-types-ancestors%2F&bvm=bv.123325700,d.ZGg&psig=AFQjCNHcz2VEzr4onsRtkEAhfRlWu6AxGg&ust=1464712665123849.


9528

Inheritance of the RH factor in human blood

Author : Teutorigos aka Kevin Francis Burke (DeBurgh)


When it comes to human blood types or groups there exists thirty five of them and the scientific nomenclature for them is known as the RH blood group system; One of these groups is known as the RH factor and is the most important grouping system after the ABO system. Well, it is one of the most important in the clinical sense, when it comes to blood transfusions, at least, according to Connie Westhoff (2004) and Laura Dean (2005); “The Rh blood group system has forty nine blood group antigens accordingly states Laura Dean (2005); “The Rh blood group is one of the most complex blood groups known in humans. From its discovery 60 years ago where it was named (in error) after the Rhesus monkey, it has become second in importance only to the ABO blood group in the field of transfusion medicine “. (Bethesda, D.:2005) One of the more important ones, of the forty nine, is the D antigen which is more commonly known for the phenotype of the RH factor variable. Besides the clinical significance another practical significance of RH antigens may be the transportation of ammonia and C02 across the red blood cell membrane (RBC) says Bethesda(2005); However, before getting into the more technical matter, of the subject, some historical background should be given first. Daniels, Geoff, Bromilow, & Imelda (2013) state that the RH blood group system was discovered on New York, with a woman who gave birth to a stillborn baby who suffered a haemoltyic reaction due to a blood transfusion from her husband; the antibody was discovered in her serum. “Levine and Stetson found that the antibody agglutinated the red cells of her husband an those of 80% of the ABO compatible donors”. (Daniels, G & Bromilow,I,.:2013) Despite these two men being the discoverers of the antigen the name comes from a different origin via an experiment of two other men whose surnames are Landsteiner and Wiener who made antibodies by injecting rhesus monkey cells into rabbits. These antibodies not only agglutinated rhesus monkey red cells, but also red cells from 85% of white New Yorkers and appeared to be the same as Levin and Stetson's antibody and other human antibodies identified later”. (Daniel, G & Bromilow,I,.:2013) However, according to Daniels & Bromilow (2013), that even being serologically related to the genetic agent was different between humans and the animals experimented on; they also state that as a result the human antibodies retained the RH and anti-D blood group name while the animal's anti-rhesus antibodies are named after the researchers or experimenters.

Even though the terminology can be traced back to that source there are two main nomenclatures, with one being traced back to Weiner, previously mentioned, called the modified wiener terminology and Fischer-Race , respectively, according to Connie Westhoff (2004). Anyway, the Fischer-Race nomenclature is more used today, as the original Wiener model is obsolete, though a more complex modified version exists, and the Fischer-Race theory differs from the former in regards to inheritance of the antigen says Westhoff (2004); in regards to this issue she states, the following : “Fischer and Race believed the RH system consisted of three closely linked genes and alleles : D at one locus, C or c at the second, and E or e at third...”(Westhoff,C:2004) while “the wiener terminology was based on the belief that the RH antigens were the products of a single gene coding for an “agglutinogen” composed of multiple “blood factors". (Westhoff, C.:2004)

Taking a step back, to a more simplistic macro overview, for a moment, if two parents are homozygous for the RH negative trait, the offspring will invariably be RH negative, as well, while the other possible combinations will result in either RH negative or RH positive phenotype according to the Australian Red Cross website (“Inheritance patterns…”, n.d.) Diving back into the micro view the website also says the following in regards to its inheritance : “The Rh blood group system is attributable to two genes, RHD and RHCE, which are located on chromsone 1… The RHD is dominant so a person is considered to be RhD positive whenever the gene is present, even though the gene may have been inherited “. (“Inheritance Patterns...”,n.d.) The RHD expresses itself on the red blood cell (RBC) memebrane; RH negatie individuals lack a working RHD gene so therefore do no enact the D antigen. An Rhag (correlated RH glycoprotein) gene, present on chromosone 6p12.3, in contrast to the previously mentioned 1, is responsible for the expression of Rh antigens in the RBC according to Geoff , Daniels Bromilow (2013). Along, with the glycoprotein is a polypetide mosaic, encoded by the two genes, which manifests itself on the membrane of the RBC states Leonard and Mais (2009) An interesting fact, as an aside, about the RHD and RHCE proteins, encoded by the two genes, is that they differ from 32 up to 35 different amino acids which is in contrast to most of other blood groups which only differ by one or a few amino acids says Connie Westhoff(2004) Also, it should go without saying the RHCE acronym derives from the Fischer-Race model mentioned, previously, in the preceding paragraph. From the Fischer-Race model there are five antigens, coded for by the two genes, and they are the D antigen and CE antigens in different combinations says Westhoff. (2004) Also, it should go without saying the RHCE acronym derives from the Fischer-Race model mentioned, previously, in the preceding paragraph. From the Fischer-Race model there are five antigens, coded for by the same genes, and they are the D antigen and CE antigens in different combinations says Westhoff (2004) Genotypes for these RBC antigen phenotypes can only be deduced to a probability via the gene frequency estimates says Westhoff (2004). These probabilities have clinical significance but they are also significant in regards to ethnic groups and races.

Moving from the microcosm of individual inheritance to the wider macrocosm of inheritance found in wider human demographics RH negative populations are mostly concentrated in the Caucasian group, to a lesser extent in African blacks and to a statistically neglible percentage among Asians according to a table provided by Westhof(2004). This however, begs the question of the evolutionary purpose of its inheritance or lack thereof ? If a person is not prudent in weeding out the source material he can find all sorts of wild ideas floating around about it – even ones involving extraterrestrials. However, once a person weeds out the pseudo-science there seem to be only a few possibly sound ones. The first is that while the function of the RHD protein with D antigen is unknown, however, its structure indicates that it probably functions as a membrane transporter or rather co-transporter of ammonia or CO2 ions (Kustu & Inwood.:2006). However, besides that there is a theory that involves a single celled parasite Taxoplasma Gondii which induces the disease taxoplasmosis. The gist of this theory is that since RH positive people are better protected against certain negative effects, caused by the parasite, as stated by Fleger & Novotna et al (2008). For instance, since Africa and Asia historically have more big cats or felines than Western Europe that is why Western Europeans tend to have the highest rates of RH negative blood; this is supposedly because RH negative blood confers a psychomotor advantage, in absence of the parasite, as stated by Novotna et al.(2008). This theory, if true, would explain the persistence of RH negative traits in spite of the disadvantage it inflicted on carriers, in regards to reproduction, before the relatively recent, in the grand scheme of things, onset of modern medicine according to Novotna et al. (2008).

Anyway, regardless of its evolutionary purpose this research exposition, in the midsection, has explained the inheritance of the RH factor or lack thereof in homo-sapiens in a technical scientific manner as well as discussed some of the pertinent nomenclature involved. The main ideas have been presented, as well as suitable interstitial material, and the responsibility of this research expose (as indicated by the title) hereby discharged.

References

Daniels, G, & Bromilow, I. (2010). The RH Blood Group System. In Essential guide to blood groups (2nd ed., p. 35). Chichester, West Sussex, UK: Wiley-Blackwell

Dean, L. (2005). The RH blood group. In Blood groups and red cell antigens. Bethesda,Md.:NCBI.

Flegr,J., Novotna, M. et al (2008). Neurophysiological effect of the RH factor. Protective role of the RhD molecule against Taxoplasma-induced impairment of reaction times in women. Retrieved May 3, 2015, from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18766148/

Kustu S, Inwood W. Biological gas channels for NH3 and C02: evidence that RH (Rhesus) proteins are CO2 channels. Transfus Clin Biol. 2006;13 (1-2):103-110[PubMed]

Leonard, G., & Mais, D. (2009). Quick compendium companion for clinical pathology. Chicago: American Society for Clinical Pathology Press.

Novotna, M. et al (2008). Taxoplosma and reaction time: Role of taxoplasmosis in the origin, preservation and geographical distribution of Rh blood group polymorphism. Retrieved May 3, 2015, from http://www.ncbi.nlm.gov/pubmed/18752708

Transfusion.com.au. (n.d.). Retrieved May 4 2015, from http://www.transfusion.com.au/

Westhoff, C. (2004). The Rh blood group system in review : a new face for the next decade.

Transfusion, 44(11),139-141. Retrieved May 04, 2015, from
http://downloads.lwww.com/woltersklu.../Chapter10.pdf

Teutorigos
09-28-2017, 08:05 AM
^^That is an essay paper on wrote on the subject in college if you read through it you will eventually come to the most likely reason why RH negative blood exists to a high degree in European descended peoples, relatively speaking, from an evolutionary standpoint.

Amerijoe
09-28-2017, 01:38 PM
Here in the UK we have a tradition of voluntary donation. Who knows, one day you might need it yourself. :)

We have Red Cross as well. My donation was to a private research group. They were using my plasma to turn Welshmen into Scotsmen. :lol: Joe