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Tomenable
06-03-2016, 05:28 PM
What are Y-DNA haplogroup frequencies among ethnic Armenians?

I wonder, what subclades of R1b and R1a haplogroups do they have?

Do ethnic Armenians have also some R1b-L51, or only R1b-Z2103?

psaglav
06-03-2016, 06:42 PM
I think there's a fair amount of J-M92 amongst them too -and other J2s. (I'm in the Armenian dna project on Ftdna.)

rms2
06-03-2016, 06:50 PM
Here is FTDNA's Armenian DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject?iframe=yresults).

Megalophias
06-03-2016, 07:07 PM
There is a little bit of L51 in the Caucasus, including Armenia, but the frequency is very low. For instance in Herrera et al's study of 413 Armenian men 120 (29%) had M269 but all were M412-. There are some in the Armenian FTDNA project though. It does seem to be overwhelmingly Z2103. There is also some M269* and some rare R1b* (L389+ P297-).

The R1a is a mixed bag with a good bit of Z93*(xZ94), Z282, L657, Z2124.

Approximate frequencies:

6% E1b1b1-M35, at least half of it M34, with very little (0.5%) V13
2% G1-M285
9% G2a-P15 of various subclades
3% I (mostly I2c?)
7% J1(xJ1a2-L136)
7% J1a2-L136
23% J2a
1.5% J2b
1.5% L (mostly M317?)
0.5% Q (including M378, M346, M25)
3% R1a1a-M198
1% R1b-M269*xL23)
27% R1b-L23(xL51)
3% R2a-M125
6% T1a-M184

Occasional H2, N, O, basal R1, etc

razyn
06-03-2016, 08:20 PM
Mher posted several pie charts about three days ago that may be more or less relevant. They are on a Facebook group that captions most things in Armenian, which I don't read, but the people who care about this thread may not have that issue. Here is one (if the link works): https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1015127025230773&set=gm.478846385646698&type=3&theater

Heber
06-03-2016, 08:44 PM
I suspect Armenia, Georgia and the South Caucasus played an important role in the migration of R1b.

http://pin.it/GgLvg4o

9606

https://aratta.wordpress.com/2014/12/

ADW_1981
06-03-2016, 09:24 PM
There is also a cluster of DF27+ in Syunik province in Armenia. For whatever reason, I believe R1b is higher in the eastern highlands near Azerbaijan.

ADW_1981
06-03-2016, 09:33 PM
There is a little bit of L51 in the Caucasus, including Armenia, but the frequency is very low. For instance in Herrera et al's study of 413 Armenian men 120 (29%) had M269 but all were M412-. There are some in the Armenian FTDNA project though. It does seem to be overwhelmingly Z2103. There is also some M269* and some rare R1b* (L389+ P297-).

The R1a is a mixed bag with a good bit of Z93*(xZ94), Z282, L657, Z2124.

Approximate frequencies:

6% E1b1b1-M35, at least half of it M34, with very little (0.5%) V13
2% G1-M285
9% G2a-P15 of various subclades
3% I (mostly I2c?)
7% J1(xJ1a2-L136)
7% J1a2-L136
23% J2a
1.5% J2b
1.5% L (mostly M317?)
0.5% Q (including M378, M346, M25)
3% R1a1a-M198
1% R1b-M269*xL23)
27% R1b-L23(xL51)
3% R2a-M125
6% T1a-M184

Occasional H2, N, O, basal R1, etc

I'm not aware of basal R1 in any modern sample (anywhere), unless this came up in the Herrera study. It's not in the FTDNA project unless amongst a private member.

Megalophias
06-03-2016, 10:22 PM
I'm not aware of basal R1 in any modern sample (anywhere), unless this came up in the Herrera study. It's not in the FTDNA project unless amongst a private member.
Sorry, it's R1(xM198, M269), I was just being lazy.

rms2
06-03-2016, 10:48 PM
Not that it's a big deal, but I have an Armenian brother-in-law (the husband of my wife's sister). His name is Sergei Tumanian. I don't know his y haplogroup, but he has always reminded me of a taller version of Joseph Stalin. :)

Arame
06-06-2016, 12:38 PM
Some 70-80% of Z2103 is L584.
Tmrca 4200 ybp.
But the bulk of it's expansion occured at 1200bc.

The majority of R1a is Z93.
I2 is I2c2.
L is pontic cluster.

Tomenable

Feel free to ask me any question
I am the moderator of that Facebook group.

Anabasis
06-06-2016, 03:33 PM
Some 70-80% of Z2103 is L584.
Tmrca 4200 ybp.
But the bulk of it's expansion occured at 1200bc.

The majority of R1a is Z93.
I2 is I2c2.
L is pontic cluster.

Tomenable

Feel free to ask me any question
I am the moderator of that Facebook group.


May i ask what is the frequency of G2a-M406, which Armenians (Sason, West or Armenia?) dominantly have it and which subs clades of M406 (like L14, L645, PF3296, M3302) is dominant. So everything about Armenian m406 :)

Arame
06-07-2016, 08:05 AM
Anabasis

G is a collection of various SNPs in Armenia without strong leadership. But of course the G2a-M406 is the most numerous branch. According to Rootsie et al M406 level is 2.3%, but in FTDNA it is much more. More than 4%. That's because in FTDNA the Western Armenians are more numerous.
M406 is frequent from Aintab/Gaziantep region. Malatya, Marash. So it comes from Westernmost places. There is also a cluster in Karabakh. No in Sasun as far as I know.
Approximative subclades
1/3 is M406* L14-
1/3 is L14+
1/3 is L645+

No PF3296

Tomenable
06-09-2016, 07:09 PM
Approximate frequencies:

6% E1b1b1-M35, at least half of it M34, with very little (0.5%) V13
2% G1-M285
9% G2a-P15 of various subclades
3% I (mostly I2c?)
7% J1(xJ1a2-L136)
7% J1a2-L136
23% J2a
1.5% J2b
1.5% L (mostly M317?)
0.5% Q (including M378, M346, M25)
3% R1a1a-M198
1% R1b-M269*xL23)
27% R1b-L23(xL51)
3% R2a-M125
6% T1a-M184

Occasional H2, N, O, basal R1, etc

Is this from one source, or a compilation of many? How large is the sample size?

Megalophias
06-09-2016, 07:52 PM
Is this from one source, or a compilation of many? How large is the sample size?
This is from Hovhannisyan et al (2014), "Different waves and directions of Neolithic migrations in the Armenian Highland", with a sample size of 1170 men. Herrera et al (2014), "Neolithic patrilineal signals indicate that the Armenian plateau was repopulated by agriculturalists", tested 413 samples from the same pool, but included some different SNPs. I've lumped some subclades together, and note the word "approximate", because I wasn't terribly precise about it.

Tomenable
06-10-2016, 06:16 PM
Some 70-80% of Z2103 is L584.
Tmrca 4200 ybp.
But the bulk of it's expansion occured at 1200bc.

The majority of R1a is Z93.
I2 is I2c2.
L is pontic cluster.

Tomenable

Feel free to ask me any question
I am the moderator of that Facebook group.

Would you agree that R1b-L584 is also typical among Assyrians and links them with Armenians?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_people

It seems that L584 is quite common in the FTDNA Assyrian Project among Assyrians from Iran:

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=10136.0

But I guess it is still much more frequent among Armenians?

Tomenable
06-10-2016, 06:23 PM
What are the most common subclades of J2a among ethnic Armenians?

Tomenable
06-11-2016, 11:29 AM
In the Armenian Project I counted 125 x J2a:

J2a unclassifiable - 9
J2a* M410+ - 5
J2a1a unclassifiable - 3
J2a1a* L27+ - 22
J2a1a2a* PF5116+ - 4
J2a1a2a2a* M319+ - 7
J2a1a2a2b* M67+ - 19
J2a1a2a2b1a1* M92+ - 25
J2a1a2c1b L25+ - 26
J2a1a2c2* PF5172+ - 2
J2a2a1a* P279+ - 3

Joe B
06-11-2016, 10:32 PM
Some 70-80% of Z2103 is L584.
Tmrca 4200 ybp.
But the bulk of it's expansion occured at 1200bc.

The majority of R1a is Z93.
I2 is I2c2.
L is pontic cluster.

Tomenable

Feel free to ask me any question
I am the moderator of that Facebook group.

The frequency of L584+ Armenian R1b-Z2103 haplotypes is probably closer to < 70% than 80%. Just eyeballing some of the STRs and it looks like there are a lot of them that are likely R1b-Z2103>Y4362, L277 and some of the other R1b-Z2103 subclades thrown in there too. Armenia is remarkable with it's diversity of R1b-Z2103 subclades.


Would you agree that R1b-L584 is also typical among Assyrians and links them with Armenians?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_people

It seems that L584 is quite common in the FTDNA Assyrian Project among Assyrians from Iran:

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=10136.0

But I guess it is still much more frequent among Armenians?The Assyrian R1b-Z2103 haplotypes are indeed mostly R1b-L584 and some R1b-Y4362, L277 too. The Assyrian haplotypes are mostly found in different branches of the R1b-FGC14590, PPF7580 subclade of R1b-L584. L943+ individuals are more common and a number of them are unique with STR DYS393=13 implying a founder effect. My opinion is that R1b-L584 was endemic to the neighborhood and that's why Armenians and
Assyrians share the R1b-L584 haplogroup.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L584/
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-basal-subclades/about/results

Arame
06-12-2016, 07:13 AM
What are the most common subclades of J2a among ethnic Armenians?

Tomenable

This is a very detailed information on J2 in Caucasus. All major J2 branches are included except the Indian J2. The Z6049 is the Kotias prominent in Georgians btw.

9776

Arame
06-12-2016, 07:27 AM
The frequency of L584+ Armenian R1b-Z2103 haplotypes is probably closer to < 70% than 80%.

Joe B

Maybe yes maybe not. Imho the level of L584 will rapidly increase if Eastern Armenians and biggest Armenian Diaspora in Russia rushes into FTDNA. I already said that there is a pro-Western Armenian sampling bias in FTDNA. For example practically all cases of R1b-PF7558 (non L584) are from Western Armenians.

I am attaching this R1b dendrogram kindly provided by Rozhanski.
White circles : Armenians.
Green Arabs
Light Blue : Jews
Red Slavs
Grey Assyrians, Caucasians and others
Without circle : Europeans


P.S. Btw Joe B I search information about R1b in Turkmenistan. Can You confirm that they have a lot off Z2103>L277?

9777

Arame
06-12-2016, 08:09 AM
Tomenable

I attached the J2 tree in Caucasus here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7376-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-ethnic-Armenians&p=163251&viewfull=1#post163251)

As for Your question about Assyrian L584. Well I think it's better to discuss that in the Assyrian thread.

psaglav
06-12-2016, 12:04 PM
Tomenable

This is a very detailed information on J2 in Caucasus. All major J2 branches are included except the Indian J2. The Z6049 is the Kotias prominent in Georgians btw.

9776

My father is now J2 Z515. He's got 5 matches total, 4 of them Armenians.

sciencediver
06-12-2016, 06:03 PM
In my opinion it can't be a coincidence that Armenians speak an IndoEuropean language and at the same time have such a high frequency of R1b male lineages.

Joe B
06-12-2016, 11:26 PM
Joe B

Maybe yes maybe not. Imho the level of L584 will rapidly increase if Eastern Armenians and biggest Armenian Diaspora in Russia rushes into FTDNA. I already said that there is a pro-Western Armenian sampling bias in FTDNA. For example practically all cases of R1b-PF7558 (non L584) are from Western Armenians.

I am attaching this R1b dendrogram kindly provided by Rozhanski.
White circles : Armenians.
Green Arabs
Light Blue : Jews
Red Slavs
Grey Assyrians, Caucasians and others
Without circle : Europeans


P.S. Btw Joe B I search information about R1b in Turkmenistan. Can You confirm that they have a lot off Z2103>L277?

9777
I have not seen any R1b haplotypes from Turkmenistan, but would expect to see see R1b-Y4362, L277 or other R1b-Z2103 branches there.
Thank you for the dendrogram!
One of the R1b Basal Subclades members has written some programs that you may find of interest.
Phylofriend - https://github.com/yogischogi/phylofriend
Phyloage - https://github.com/yogischogi/phyloage
There may be a western testing bias to the Armenian haplotypes, it's true for most haplopgroups too. It's also true that the Armenian R1b basal haplotypes as a whole are overdue for a SNP based haplogroup survey. I believe if you contact Peter H. and the other Armenian project members about the need to do a survey they will be receptive. That survey should be helpful to understanding the ancient Armenians that are being genotyped.

Arame
06-14-2016, 08:16 AM
Sciencediver

Yes that's not a coincidence. But a lot off detailisation are needed to come up with a robust theory. Armenian language has many layers, one of which connects him to Balkanic world. After all checkings done I will present a new insight based on genetic data how when and where Armenian could have got it's Balkanic connection.

Gravetto-Danubian
06-14-2016, 09:23 AM
If Armenians origins have anything to do with Phrygians, there is a growing move by scholars - at least those with western education - to dismiss Herodotus "histories' as mere invented narratives. They would rather view Phrygians as descendants of some already existing BA group in western Anatolia, from whom the Myceneans descended - I might add.

Eg "The Mushki/Phrygian problem from the Near Eastern point of view. Konstantinos Kopanias"

More (https://books.google.com.au/books?id=KK3eFcbIGN0C&pg=PA28&dq=phrygian+bronze+age+anatolia+canaan&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=phrygian&f=false) about lack of "Phrygian migrations"

"ROBERT DREWS. Myths of Midas and the Phrygian Migration from Europe"


I suspect they might be right.
But we won;t see the evidence just yet.

Megalophias
06-14-2016, 01:32 PM
I guess the excavators of Gordion didn't get the memo about the Phrygian migration being mythical. ;)

Iron Age Gordion (http://sites.museum.upenn.edu/gordion/history/iron-age-gordion/)

Gravetto-Danubian
06-16-2016, 03:52 AM
I guess the excavators of Gordion didn't get the memo about the Phrygian migration being mythical. ;)

Iron Age Gordion (http://sites.museum.upenn.edu/gordion/history/iron-age-gordion/)

Well, some archaeologists still read Ancient Greek texts as "factual documentaries". Many others do not

In the references provided are detailed why some other archaeologists have questioned the conclusions of the original excavators.

I'm not saying they're right or wrong, but that's the current state of play.


----------
Anyhow I'm curious to hear Arame's new theory

Gravetto-Danubian
06-16-2016, 07:51 AM
Imteresting model for southern Greeks

Greek:

"Armenian" 62.9
"Anatolia_Neolithic" 24.7
"Loschbour" 6.7
"Karelia_HG" 5.25
"Atayal" 0.45
"Esan_Nigeria" 0
"Kotias" 0
"BedouinB" 0
"Moroccan_Jew" 0

Tomenable
06-19-2016, 01:57 PM
In the Armenian Project I counted 125 x J2a:

J2a unclassifiable - 9
J2a* M410+ - 5
J2a1a unclassifiable - 3
J2a1a* L27+ - 22
J2a1a2a* PF5116+ - 4
J2a1a2a2a* M319+ - 7
J2a1a2a2b* M67+ - 19
J2a1a2a2b1a1* M92+ - 25
J2a1a2c1b L25+ - 26
J2a1a2c2* PF5172+ - 2
J2a2a1a* P279+ - 3

One more to J2a list (for the total of 126):

J2a1a1a1a1 Z387 - 1

Some more data on subclades (based on FTDNA Armenian Project):

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject?iframe=yresults

J2b (total 8):

J2b* Z574 - 3
J2b1* M205 - 5

E1b (total 53):

E1b1b1a1* M78 - 1
E1b1b1a1a* V12 - 4
E1b1b1a1b* V13 - 6
E1b1b1a1c* V22 - 7
E1b1b1c* M123 - 1
E1b1b1c1* M34 - 5
E1b1b1c1a* M84 - 25
E1b1b1c1d* L792 - 3
E1b1b1a1b1a4 L241 - 1

G (total 74):

G1 M342 - 10
G2a1a* P18 - 5
G2a2 PF3146 - 14
G2a3a M406 - 27
G2a3b1 P303 - 15
G2a3b2 L177 - 1
G2c M377 - 2

I2 (total 24):

I2c L597 - 20 (I guess most of it is in fact I2c2)
I2a1b1* L69.2 - 1
I2a2a M223 - 3

J1 (total 70):

J1 YSC65 - 4
J1 PF7257 - 4
J1 CTS1460 - 26
J1 Z1842 - 6
J1 Z18471 - 3
J1 L620 - 3
J1 L147.1 - 3
J1 Z2324 - 1
J1 L858 - 17
J1 Z2324 - 3

L1 (total 19):

L1b L655 - 17
L1c M357 - 2

Q1 (total 9):

Q1a2 M25 - 1
Q1a3 M346 - 4
Q1b1a* L245 - 4

T (total 34):

T1a1a1a1a* P77 - 12
T1a1a1* Z709 - 11
T1a1a* CTS2214 - 1
T1a2* L131 - 8
T1a* M70 - 1
T* L445 - 1

R1a (total 18):

R1a1a1b1 Z283+ - 1
R1a1a1b1a Z282 - 2
R1a1a1b1a2 Z280 - 1
R1a1a1b1a2 YP951 - 1
R1a1a1b2 Z93 - 6
R1a1a1b2 YP413 - 1
R1a1a1b2a1 L342.2 - 3
R1a1a1b2a1b1 Y57 - 1
R1a1a1b2a2a YP3920 - 1
R1a1a1a L664 - 1

R1b (total 148):

R1b1* P25 - 2
R1b1a2* M269 - 8
R1b1a2a1 L150 - 107 (I guess most of it is in fact L584)
R1b1a2a2a L277 - 5
R1b1a2a2a L584 - 18
R1b1a2a2a Z2109 - 2
R1b1a2az1a* L11 - 1
R1b1a2az1a2a A432 - 5

Some minor haplogroups:

R2a M124 - 10
F3* M282 - 2
A3b2 M13 - 2
H1a M82 - 1
H1 M69 - 1
N1c2b P43 - 1

Mher
06-22-2016, 07:49 PM
i very love them A432 - 5

parasar
10-06-2018, 06:39 PM
...
R1a (total 18):

R1a1a1b1 Z283+ - 1
R1a1a1b1a Z282 - 2
R1a1a1b1a2 Z280 - 1
R1a1a1b1a2 YP951 - 1
R1a1a1b2 Z93 - 6
R1a1a1b2 YP413 - 1
R1a1a1b2a1 L342.2 - 3
R1a1a1b2a1b1 Y57 - 1
R1a1a1b2a2a YP3920 - 1
R1a1a1a L664 - 1
...

Late Sarmatian YP3920
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bnVJujBs_bQu_dqSVi_dSXUuz9gNIYFX_XlqRrz92mo/edit#gid=0