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View Full Version : J1-F3547 ... How to research gap -8500 BP to 1500s?



RmayNV
06-05-2016, 03:05 PM
I have recently received (FTDNA Y-111 and Big-Y) results that put me in haplogroup J1-F3547. As best I can tell this follows the tree M267 > F4306 > F1614 > F3547, but I am not a genetics expert and have found this sequence on several published trees. My understanding is that F3547 may have originated in the Caucasus/Anatolia region around 8500 years ago, and we have traced our paternal line back farily completely to a Jorg May who was born in Gelnhausen, Germany in 1520 (and died there in 1611). What is the best approach to try and fill in this large gap in time as far as migration paths?

I can find only 2 other FTDNA kits with J1-F3547 (am trying to contact them but without success so far in finding who they are), and it may simply be the case that filling in this gap is hopeless at present due to lack of sufficient number of available tests. But is there some kind of research I can do with my results (SNP and STR values) to try and find out more information on the migration paths taken between 8500 years ago and the early 1500s? How does one go about getting information like this? Are there organizations who can be paid to do this kind of research (I do have Yfull looking at my BAM file, but I don't know what comes of that). Does anyone here know more about haplogroup J1-F3547?

Agamemnon
06-05-2016, 07:01 PM
Hi there RmayNV and welcome to Anthrogenica, it seems you're part of the May cluster under F3547, the two other kits you're referring to are 18153 and 18215. If we add kit 272108 (Salonen) from Finland, we have all the F3547 individuals in the J1 FTDNA project so far (I suggest you join this project). I've always found the latter sample quite intriguing, considering the fact that J1 was found in a Karelian EHG and that Satsurblia was FGC42175 (a sister branch of F1614 under F4306) I'd say it's quite likely that some F1614 was present in Eastern Europe or the Caspian steppe during the Paleaolithic, either that or it arrived there later on during the Mesolithic (or even the Neolithic), the most parsimonious route in all cases goes straight through the Caucasus.

RmayNV
06-05-2016, 07:28 PM
Agamemnon,
Thank you for the welcome message. I joined the J1 project at FTDNA a few days ago and they have me at the very bottom of the Y-111 results (page 3. under "ungrouped", kit number 488013). I had also joined the May surname project there a few months ago, which shows the other May males who have been tested so far. Most of that group seem more interested in recent connections within the family tree, while I am most interested in trying to fill in the gap between roughly 8,500 years ago (if that is indeed roughly when F3547 first appeared somewhere around the Caucasus region), and when my ancestors ended up in Germany by the early 1500s.

With so few people tested at FTDNA for J1-F3547, does that mean that I am unlikely to get very far in my quest? I would like to get more information on Salonen but don't know of any way to contact him, or if I did get in touch exactly what the process would be to try and learn more. The fact that he indicates a Finland connection (either for himself, or his last known paternal ancestor), it is the only F3547 I have seen so far that doesn't show either a German last known ancestor (such as myself and the other DYS439=7 group), or "unknown" (eg. Saaty, kit number 428482). I am in touch with kit 18215 who is a known descendent of the same Jorg May that I am. I assume FTDNA would move me into the 198 cluster eventually, rather than "ungrouped" as now.

Thanks again for the quick reply. I have a lot to learn about how to research this stuff but hopefully the lack of testees (at least at FTDNA) won't be an absolute show stopper.
Randy


Hi there RmayNV and welcome to Anthrogenica, it seems you're part of the May cluster under F3547, the two other kits you're referring to are 18153 and 18215. If we add kit 272108 (Salonen) from Finland, we have all the F3547 individuals in the J1 FTDNA project so far (I suggest you join this project). I've always found the latter sample quite intriguing, considering the fact that J1 was found in a Karelian EHG and that Satsurblia was FGC42175 (a sister branch of F1614 under F4306) I'd say it's quite likely that some F1614 was present in Eastern Europe or the Caspian steppe during the Paleaolithic, either that or it arrived there later on during the Mesolithic (or even the Neolithic), the most parsimonious route in all cases goes straight through the Caucasus.

Anabasis
06-05-2016, 07:50 PM
Well if you request your BAM file from FTDNA and analysis your BIG Y result in Yfull.com it would be help full to filling the gap.

Here is the tree of F4306. https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y6305/

FIN sample is probably Salonen, YF04860 is from Erzincan Turkey. If you analysis your result there you may learn how many years ago you had common ancestry with those samples.

RmayNV
06-05-2016, 08:03 PM
Thanks ... I'm glad you recommend Yfull. They do have my Big-Y BAM file (as of a couple of weeks ago) and I am waiting on the results. So hopefully that can shed more light on the situation.




Well if you request your BAM file from FTDNA and analysis your BIG Y result in Yfull.com it would be help full to filling the gap.

Here is the tree of F4306. https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y6305/

FIN sample is probably Salonen, YF04860 is from Erzincan Turkey. If you analysis your result there you may learn how many years ago you had common ancestry with those samples.

RCO
06-05-2016, 09:46 PM
Hello Randy
Ricardo here. You have a very basal J1 branch, actually the most basal one and we should wait more results from Eastern Europe, the Caucasus, Eastern Anatolia and specially from the Caspian Sea and Northern Iran to understand the composition and the diversity of J1 branches after the Last Glaciation. In those regions we can find the biggest J1 basal diversity and we still have very few original research and very few samples from that core J1 regions in order to understand the basal ramifications and movements to Central and Western Europe in our cases.
Welcome !

RmayNV
06-05-2016, 10:54 PM
Hello Ricardo,
I took your advice and sent Yfull my BAM file a couple of weeks ago (and Agamemnon also recommend this today so they seem to be a good resource that all of you experts know about). It does appear there are not yet enough people tested from my branch with only a couple outside of our surname project within the FTDNA J1 project as a whole (both Salonen and Saaty are J1-F3547 ... Salonen connected to Finland in some way, and Saaty shows an unknown location). If I could contact them I would offer to pay for their Yfull BAM analyses as that sounds like it might be a source of additional information (possibly the only source at the moment). Thank you for continuing to help.
Randy

Saetro
06-05-2016, 11:40 PM
Agamemnon,
I joined the J1 project at FTDNA a few days ago and they have me at the very bottom of the Y-111 results.

I assume FTDNA would move me into the 198 cluster eventually, rather than "ungrouped" as now.


FYI Randy, FTDNA hosts the projects, but they are run by volunteers - see top left of the home page of your project for Administrator and Co-Admins.
They do what they can when they can.
I have found all the haplogroup admins I have seen as beyond me in knowledge and very helpful.
My point is that their time can be limited, so sometimes patience is needed.

To get back to the 1500s with your paper trail you must be quite good at handling detail, and probably some complexity.
Although the fine detail on haplogroups comes from the projects, some academic papers can be useful at least for background and general movements.
Give them a try, even if you have to go back your base at J1.
Some will be mentioned in previous posts in this forum, so start there and then try Google Scholar.

Good luck, and enjoy the journey!

RmayNV
06-06-2016, 12:12 AM
Saetro,
With the general J1 project at FTDNA being so large, I can imagine it may take some time for the administrators to manage what must be a lot of questions coming their way. I got in touch with Ricardo through the M365 project there thinking I was J1b, but learned from him that that is now J1a1, so it can get confusing when these designations change and various phylo trees are not updated. Using the mutation designations seems to be the safest way to keep on the correct path. I just discovered this forum today so will spend some time reading the posts in this section. Seems to be a very useful resource with helpful participants.
Randy



FYI Randy, FTDNA hosts the projects, but they are run by volunteers - see top left of the home page of your project for Administrator and Co-Admins.
They do what they can when they can.
I have found all the haplogroup admins I have seen as beyond me in knowledge and very helpful.
My point is that their time can be limited, so sometimes patience is needed.

To get back to the 1500s with your paper trail you must be quite good at handling detail, and probably some complexity.
Although the fine detail on haplogroups comes from the projects, some academic papers can be useful at least for background and general movements.
Give them a try, even if you have to go back your base at J1.
Some will be mentioned in previous posts in this forum, so start there and then try Google Scholar.

Good luck, and enjoy the journey!

RCO
06-06-2016, 01:14 AM
Randy, you can also contact Salonen and others at YFull-Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/yfullcom/
Another very good space of discussion
YFull tree - YF02055
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J1/

Agamemnon
06-06-2016, 01:18 AM
Well don't despair, despite the fact that F3547 is a relatively rare lineage, its sheer status as a basal sub-branch of one the most basal J1 branches (F4306) coupled with the fact that we have an important F4306+ sample dating back to the Paleolithic (Satsurblia) is bound to draw a lot of attention.

RmayNV
06-06-2016, 02:06 AM
I've never had a Facebook account but may have to create one if it it useful for this kind of discussion. The main J1 tree I have been using is from ISOGG I believe, but the PDF is too large to attach here (although it is only 267 KB). A screen capture is attached of part of this tree. There is a small "MAY" block added below the F3547 main block and I fall into that (I believe a distant cousin with a much earlier kit number is responsible for this block being added, he is FTDNA kit #18215), and the block underneath that with FTDNA kit #422638 is my paternal grandfather's brother (his daughter is the one who traced our paternal line back to the early 1500s in Germany).

But it ends there, and since the three of us who have been tested at FTDNA (18215, 422638, 488013=mine) are all obviously very recent (and still living), these two small subblocks don't provide any historical information. The much larger block to the left has no date, but the kit number shown below it (282108) is Salonen which I assume is also very recent. So I'm getting my 8500 BP date from the main F3547 block, and everything below that on this particular tree is present day.

I will create a Facebook account and try to contact Salonen. He seems to be the one person so far (along with Saaty, kit #428482) that could provide some additional historical information as he is outside of our known surname group. I would love to find out things like your possible Alan connection ... but for my particular group (if different). Very interesting stuff.




Randy, you can also contact Salonen and others at YFull-Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/yfullcom/
Another very good space of discussion
YFull tree - YF02055
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J1/

RmayNV
06-06-2016, 02:47 AM
Thanks for the reference to the Paleolithic sample I found a paper in Nature Communications on the Satsurblia (and Bichon, Kotias) results so will try to understand what I can from it.




Well don't despair, despite the fact that F3547 is a relatively rare lineage, its sheer status as a basal sub-branch of one the most basal J1 branches (F4306) coupled with the fact that we have an important F4306+ sample dating back to the Paleolithic (Satsurblia) is bound to draw a lot of attention.

Meastn
12-01-2016, 01:16 AM
Come on cousin! You are in better shape than me :). I'm also j1-m26>f4306 but the only enlisted subclasses yours f3547 and Z2223 all tested negative for me. I can't find any individual neither in the familytreedna nor gedmatch and others to connect my history to. Maybe I might be from a lost tribe which separated from yours later but that's all. Hope we learn more in the near future about those ancestors of ours.

RCO
12-01-2016, 12:42 PM
You should test Big Y or FGC to find your branch. Have you tested FTDNA Pack or YSeq ? What about F1614 ?

Meastn
12-01-2016, 12:49 PM
Nope, don't have the financial resources for 2016. Planning and hoping to go for bigY in 2017

Meastn
12-15-2016, 10:12 PM
Question:
When I run gedmatch it shows that I share 1.790,6 total cm out of 597 seperate segments with the largest being 14,3. I checked some resources which claim that (http://isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal_DNA_statistics)
if I share more than 1700 total cm it means that I have a 25 % share and the other person is possibly( Grandparent/grandchild, aunt-or-uncle/niece-or-nephew, half-siblings) with a relation of DEGREE 2.
The problem is the sample I compare myself is the KOTIAS cave sample which is around 14.000 years old. It is almost 450 generations. How is that possible? Am I understanding that relationship thing wrong?
Any ideas?