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Gravetto-Danubian
06-17-2016, 11:24 PM
Agreed. Lazaridis made a mistake using Yamnaya-era steppe samples to model South Asians, as well.

In the absence of BMAC, IVC or "pure" ASI samples, the most accurate combination they could've run was Iran_N (better than Chalcolithic given the absence of EHG), Sintashta, Onge and Han.

If Generalissimo or Chad can run the above, they will immediately improve the Lazaridis output.



I completely agree with you, actually. Much of the "EHG" we're seeing in the prehistoric Near-East (including at Hotu) is probably some ANE-related component (possibly of the same origin that appears present in South Asia based on formal statistics).

Did the Reich lab not discover that EHG fits as well as our Mal'ta-derived ANE component for Amerindians? I believe Chad mentioned this on your blog once. If true, that would support our perspective here.

Now we've found something EHG-like (ANE derivative?) in paleolithic Iran, and have evidence of something similar in modern South Asians, Occam's razor (per geography and the intersection between ancient and modern DNA) permits us to safely assume something EHG-like definitely was in Central Asia before the Indo-Iranian migrations.

Ok with some lingering clarifications, what about Sintashta- important for its connections to I-A.
Now they have Neolithic stuff from Europe to Iran, they have stayed with the model of Sintashta = steppe + MN Europe
This essentially cements Z93 being from "Europe" ?

DMXX
06-17-2016, 11:36 PM
Ok with some lingering clarifications, what about Sintashta- important for its connections to I-A.
Now they have Neolithic stuff from Europe to Iran, they have stayed with the model of Sintashta = steppe + MN Europe


There's no widely-held scholarly position on which steppe cultures are firmly Iranian or Indo-Aryan. There are quite a few, which differ in chronology, location and interactions with another (Potapovka, Srubnaya, Poltavka, Sintashta, Petrovka, Abashevo from memory).

I can't remember what Kuz'mina's perspective is on those cultures, other than Potapovka representing something similar to proto-Indo-Iranian. My own personal current opinion is that Srubnaya represents proto-Indo-Iranian, with Sintashta and Petrovka representing the proto-Iranian and proto-Indo-Aryan cultures respectively (both occur near-contemporaneously in the same zone around the Urals and are highly similar in terms of material culture).



This essentially cements Z93 being from "Europe" ?

Based on the totality of the aDNA and modern DNA we have, R1a1a-Z93 is quite clearly a late bronze age European export into Asia.

The "Near-Eastern patriots" David (Anthony ;) ) spoke of in a past lecture must come to terms with the fast accumulation of data that contradicts their a priori position.

Jean M
06-18-2016, 11:07 AM
There's no widely-held scholarly position on which steppe cultures are firmly Iranian or Indo-Aryan.

I'm surprised that you say that. It has been generally held for decades that Andronovo = Indo-Iranian. See Mallory and Adams (eds.), Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture (1997), on Andronovo and p. 73:


it has become increasingly clear that if one wishes to argue for Indo-Iranian migrations from the steppe lands south into the historical seats of the Iranians and Indo-Aryans that these steppe cultures were transformed as they passed through a membrane of Central Asian urbanism.

Which fits the substrate evidence - words borrowed from a language of urbanism and irrigation agriculture into Proto-Indo-Iranian and from the same language into Archaic Old Indic, which can be deduced to be the language of the BMAC. These words include Indra. So the Andronovo contacts with the BMAC which appear in the archaeology are telling.

Sintashta is the earliest form of Andronovo, or its progenitor, whichever you prefer. David Anthony says in The Horse, the Wheel and Language, pp. 408-410 that:


The funeral sacrifices of the Sintashta culture are a critical link betwen archaeology and history. They closely resemble the rituals described in the Rig Veda ...Common Indo-Iranian probably was spoken during the Sintashta period, 2100-1800 BCE. Archaic Old Indic probably emerged as a separate tongue from archaic Iranian about 1800-1600 BCE ... The RV and AV agreed that the essence of their shared parental Indo-Iranian identity was linguistic and ritual, not racial. If a person sacrified to the right gods in the right way using the correct forms of the traditional hymns and poems, that person was an Aryan. ... Similarity between the rituals excavated at Sintashta and Arkaim and those described later in the RV have solved, for many, the problem of Indo-Iranian origins... The explosion of Sintashta innovations in rituals, politics, and warfare had a long-lasting impact on the later cultures of the Eurasian steppes. This is another reason why the Sintashta culture is the best and clearest candidate for the crucible of Indo-Iranian identity and language. Both the Srubnaya and Andronovo horizons, the principal cultural groups of the Late Bronze Age in the Eurasian steppes ... grew from origins in the Potapovka-Sintashta complex.

9832

Jean M
06-18-2016, 11:24 AM
I can't remember what Kuz'mina's perspective is on those cultures,

Her conclusion:


The majority of Russian archaeologists and linguists accept that the sites of the Sintashta type reflect the formation of the Indo-Iranian group of cultures whose origins lie in the earlier Pit-grave culture. Proto-Indo-Iranian became an independent language during the period of the end of the 3rd and the beginning of the 2nd millennia BC. The population knew agriculture, stock-raising, including horse-breeding. They built fortified settlements comparable with the vara, manufactured gold and copper, and at the end of the period, also bronze artifacts. The main achievement of the epoch is the introduction of horse-drawn chariots and the privileged position of charioteers who were buried in large barrows with horses, chariots and rich grave goods including all types of weapon that had common-Iranian names. This set of weapons is recorded in the culture of the Aryans of Mitanni and represented in the Rigveda and the Avesta in the late hymn to Mithra where the ancient Indo-Iranian tradition could have been preserved. This situation corresponds well with the reconstruction of the culture of the Proto-Indo-Iranians and is reliably supported by J. Mallory’s hypothesis on the genesis of the Indo-European peoples and O. Skjærvø and G. Fussman’s conclusion that the Indo-Iranian linguistic community split between 1700 and 1500 BC.

Kanenas
06-18-2016, 11:27 AM
Have we found any chariot burials or horse burials in Iran? It seems that Etruscans practised it. It was practised also in Iron Age Salamis, Cyprus by non-Greeks most likely.
If their ancestors practiced it why did they stop doing so?

Jean M
06-18-2016, 11:51 AM
Have we found any chariot burials or horse burials in Iran? It seems that Etruscans practised it. It was practised also in Iron Age Salamis, Cyprus by non-Greeks most likely.

There are indeed horse-burials in Iran. However horse-burial is not exclusive to Indo-Europeans. It could be taken up by any people who adopted horse-riding and/or chariots from Indo-Europeans. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_burial This should not confuse us about the origins of the ritual.

Kanenas
06-18-2016, 12:04 PM
But not any chariot burials. I personally believe that it's possible that Indo-Europeans adopted horse-riding and/or chariots by non-Indoeuropean cultures. There weren't any chariot burials in Greece, Rome and chariots weren't used for warfare.
(Celts did use chariots for warfare but that doesn't mean much)

Here's a burial costume, sometimes considered Greek or Greco-Roman, but very widespread and of Indo-European origin imo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon%27s_obol

Jean M
06-18-2016, 12:16 PM
But not any chariot burials. I personally believe that it's possible that Indo-Europeans adopted horse-riding and/or chariots by non-Indoeuropean cultures.

The chronology is against you. The relevant section from AJ 2nd edn:


The invention of spoked wheels around 2000 BC made possible a lighter vehicle - the horse-drawn, two-wheel chariot, which could be used to devastating effect in warfare. Early images of the technology appear in the Near East, but its origin lies in the Eurasian steppes. In the Sintashta culture, Russia, a man could be buried with his chariot. As the wood rotted it left stains in the ground, preserving the shape of the two-wheeled vehicle, including the spokes of the wheels. So far at least 16 such graves have been found. They are dated 2100-1700 BC, older than any chariots elsewhere. From the steppe, chariots were introduced into the Near East together with steppe horses and studded disk cheek-pieces.

In northern Mesopotamia the Mitanni were famed charioteers. The names of their kings appear in the record from about 1500. These names were Indic. One meant 'having an attacking chariot'. The mass of their people spoke Hurrian, a non-Indo-European language. Their aristocracy had its origin in military charioteers. So we may guess that a band from afar had used the chariot to seize power.

The swift-moving chariot became the favoured transport of the elite. From the Levant it was taken to Egypt, probably by the Hyksos, a Semitic people who invaded Lower Egypt. Once the Egyptians adopted chariot warfare themselves, they were able to expel the Hyksos. It was an early example of the arms race.

Meanwhile the chariot also moved westward via the steppe into Europe. Its progress up the Danube can be tracked by chariot burials and cheek-pieces from horse-harness. From the Carpathian Basin it seems that the chariot reached Mycenean Greece by about 1600 BC. The characteristic Myceanean type had four spokes per wheel ... The concept had spread right across Europe by about 1300 BC, when chariots are depicted on engraved slabs in a noble's tomb in Sweden and warrior stelae in south-west Iberia.


There weren't any chariot burials in Greece, Rome and chariots weren't used for warfare....

The cultures of various branches of the Indo-European family differ, just as their languages do. We don't need to find a trail of chariot burials or chariot warfare into every culture that used chariots in order to understand the culture of the Indo-Iranians.

The crucial evidence for determining the cradle of Indo-Iranian is the chain of steppe cultures that followed Sintashta on the Asian steppe, one clearly emerging from another right up to the historic period when we know that these people (Scythians) spoke an Iranic language. This is actually one of the most straightforward and obvious deductions in the whole of Indo-European studies. :)

Kanenas
06-18-2016, 12:36 PM
We don't know that the Scythians spoke Indo-Iranian. It's speculative pseudoscience based on the work of an Ossetian nationalist.

We know though that the Scythians have cultural affinities to modern-day mostly Turkic-speaking Central Asian populations. Non-IE and IE languages are likely to have coexisted in the Steppes.

rozenfeld
06-18-2016, 12:40 PM
We don't know that the Scythians spoke Indo-Iranian. It's speculative pseudoscience based on the work of an Ossetian nationalist.

We know though that the Scythians have cultural affinities to modern-day mostly Turkic-speaking Central Asian populations. Non-IE and IE languages are likely to have coexisted in the Steppes.

Cultural affinities to modern-day mostly Turkic-speaking Central Asian populations is mostly caused by similar nomadic lifestyle and the fact that there was massive language shift in Central Asia.

DMXX
06-18-2016, 01:30 PM
I'm surprised that you say that. It has been generally held for decades that Andronovo = Indo-Iranian. See Mallory and Adams (eds.), Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture (1997), on Andronovo and p. 73:

Correct. However, I was referring to the subdivisions of various steppe cultures as either Iranian or Indo-Aryan; Gravetto-Danubian was asking me about Sintashta's connection to "I-A" (Indo-Aryan).

Most scholars use the catch-all term "Indo-Iranian" for the aforementioned cultures. David Anthony considers Sintashta to simply be "Indo-Iranian" as well, for what it's worth.



There's no widely-held scholarly position on which steppe cultures are firmly Iranian or Indo-Aryan. There are quite a few, which differ in chronology, location and interactions with another (Potapovka, Srubnaya, Poltavka, Sintashta, Petrovka, Abashevo from memory).

Huijbregts
06-18-2016, 01:49 PM
However horse-burial is not exclusive to Indo-Europeans. It could be taken up by any people who adopted horse-riding and/or chariots from Indo-Europeans.
9833
Until the late 1980's the Ameland lifeboat was launched with the use of horses. On August 14, 1979, a launch went terribly wrong and 8 horses died. Their grave, pictured here in the dunes near Hollum, is a well known spot on the island.

Jean M
06-18-2016, 02:09 PM
We don't know that the Scythians spoke Indo-Iranian.

They did not speak Proto-Indo-Iranian. That was the parent language of both the Iranian and Indic families. It was long gone by the time of the Scythians, broken up into the Indic and Iranian branches. The Scythians spoke languagues of the Eastern Iranian group. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Iranian_languages


The living Eastern Iranian languages are spoken in a contiguous area, in eastern Afghanistan as well as the adjacent parts of western Pakistan, Gorno-Badakhshan Autonomous Province of eastern Tajikistan, and the far west of Xinjiang region of China, while it also has two other living members in widely separated areas, the Yaghnobi language of northwestern Tajikistan (descended from Sogdian) and the Ossetic language of the Caucasus (descended from Scytho-Sarmatian). These are remnants of a vast ethno-linguistic continuum that stretched over most of Central Asia, Eastern Europe, and parts of the Caucasus, and West Asia in the 1st millennium BC, otherwise known as Scythia. The large Eastern Iranian continuum in Eastern Europe would continue up to including the 4th century AD by the successors of the Scythians, namely the Sarmatians.

Several now lost languages of the Eastern Iranian group left written records, including Sogdian, Khotanese and Tumshuqese.

Perhaps some kind admin would split off all these posts about IE linguists and create a thread for them in the linguistics forum? It is unrelated to the paper supposedly under discussion on this thread.

DMXX
06-18-2016, 03:06 PM
[Admin] This thread's been split off from the larger Lazaridis thread (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7489-Lazaridis-et-al-The-genetic-structure-of-the-world-s-first-farmers-(pre-print)&p=164475#post164475).

Gravetto-Danubian
06-18-2016, 11:51 PM
Her conclusion:

the data is still ambiguous

As I stated in the main thread, the Ghandara grave culture is being dated to 2200 BC (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287463991_14C_chronology_of_burial_grounds_of_the_ Andronovo_period_Middle_Bronze_Age_in_Baraba_fores t_steppe_western_Siberia) - I've not read it yet although

Moreover, the Lazarides paper could not model South Asians as Sintashta or Andronovo. And neither could the guys on Eurogenes. Which is perplexing given the obvious path of R1a-Z93 .

To me, it means that Sintashta just cannot be the I-A precursor. Rather, some other predecessor, which perhaps gave rise to both in turn. That is why they required to model it with Yamnaya.

Perhaps it was mediated via an early offshoot via BMAC, but I again doubt this scenario because there barely any steppe elements in BMAC apart from odd steppe ceramics containing milk residue - suggesting they came - at least initially - as traders of products.

Of course, the possibility of ancient ANE or ANE-like people in central Asia could further confound the issue

DMXX
06-19-2016, 12:21 AM
Yes, this is (perhaps the only for now) circumstantial genetic evidence that might indicate the steppe ancestors of modern South Asians weren't from Sintashta.

Andronovo most likely isn't related to the Indo-Aryans for spatiotemporal reasons (the derivative cultures are largely designated as East Iranic, with patchy but consistent evidence supporting this, such as the Ossetian-Pamiri linguistic clade, or East Iranic loanwords in Common Tocharian). As Sintashta is considered the immediate ancestor of the Andronovo archaeological horizon, that could mean Sintashta was specifically proto-Iranic.

Who were these mystery proto-Indo-Aryan steppe ancestors, in that case? I considered Petrovka for several reasons (chiefly its' high degree of similarity with Sintashta, alongside its' overlapping presence in similar territory). That has reminded me of A Parpola's hypothesis regarding a theologically driven conflict between the Indo-Aryans and Iranians (which has some merit, based on signs of fortification destruction at Sintashta, and the deity inversion observed in the Avesta and Rg Veda from memory).

Petrovka certainly fits the above quite neatly, but I don't know what the expert archaeological opinion might be on that. I think I'm the first person to posit a distinction between Sintashta and Petrovka as an indication of the imminent theological, and then linguistic, split between them (Parpola IIRC didn't dig too deeply into the archaeology).

Gravetto-Danubian
06-19-2016, 12:33 AM
I agree
The issue is, the entire archaeology of Andronovo horizon needs an overhaul- as pointed out by Frachetti in his book
The data mostly comes from Russia, where they still practice culture-history. Whilst not wrong, treating entire "Andronovo cultural-historical community" as a monolithic block can at times obscure details and inhibit more nuanced explanatory models.
At least we are now starting to see actual RC dates, and most fall to 1800 BC as the starting point.

DMXX
06-19-2016, 12:46 AM
I agree
The issue is, the entire archaeology of Andronovo horizon needs an overhaul- as pointed out by Frachetti in his book


Ah! I've been meaning to read Frachetti's excellent-looking book since it came out a couple years back. How would you review it as being?

Gravetto-Danubian
06-19-2016, 12:57 AM
Ah! I've been meaning to read Frachetti's excellent-looking book since it came out a couple years back. How would you review it as being?

Definitely worth a read, although he focusses on the Sermiyche region, and it might need an update to incorporate the growing aDNA evidence. But he has a good blurb on the Andronovo horizon in it.
I think a stray full PDF was floating around on Scribd.

Coldmountains
06-19-2016, 06:15 AM
Yes, this is (perhaps the only for now) circumstantial genetic evidence that might indicate the steppe ancestors of modern South Asians weren't from Sintashta.

Andronovo most likely isn't related to the Indo-Aryans for spatiotemporal reasons (the derivative cultures are largely designated as East Iranic, with patchy but consistent evidence supporting this, such as the Ossetian-Pamiri linguistic clade, or East Iranic loanwords in Common Tocharian). As Sintashta is considered the immediate ancestor of the Andronovo archaeological horizon, that could mean Sintashta was specifically proto-Iranic.

Who were these mystery proto-Indo-Aryan steppe ancestors, in that case? I considered Petrovka for several reasons (chiefly its' high degree of similarity with Sintashta, alongside its' overlapping presence in similar territory). That has reminded me of A Parpola's hypothesis regarding a theologically driven conflict between the Indo-Aryans and Iranians (which has some merit, based on signs of fortification destruction at Sintashta, and the deity inversion observed in the Avesta and Rg Veda from memory).

Petrovka certainly fits the above quite neatly, but I don't know what the expert archaeological opinion might be on that. I think I'm the first person to posit a distinction between Sintashta and Petrovka as an indication of the imminent theological, and then linguistic, split between them (Parpola IIRC didn't dig too deeply into the archaeology).



From what I read Potapovka is a good candidate . Andronovo is in his earliest stage probably related and ancestral to Indo-Aryans but not in his later stages . All Andronovo dna we have now was from the northeast so probably not very representative for many other parts of Andronovo .I also see some religious conflict between Proto-Iranics and Proto-Indo-Aryans. Even the Dasa mentioned in Rig veda are in my opinion not remnants of IVC but BMACized Iranics (Daha/Dasa was used as ethnonym among Iranic people).

Gravetto-Danubian
06-19-2016, 06:24 AM
From what I read Potapovka is a good candidate . Andronovo is in his earliest stage probably related and ancestral to Indo-Aryans but not in his later stages . All Andronovo dna we have now was from the northeast so probably not very representative for many other parts of Andronovo .I also see some religious conflict between Proto-Iranics and Proto-Indo-Aryans. Even the Dasa mentioned in Rig veda are in my opinion not remnants of IVC but BMACized Iranics (Daha/Dasa was used as ethnonym among Iranic people).

If the bulk of the Rigveda's date to after 1500 BC, then they probably have nothing to do with Andronovo or Sintastha.
So whatever the Rigveda's were conveying, its about events happening in south Asia, right ?

Coldmountains
06-19-2016, 06:38 AM
If the bulk of the Rigveda's date to after 1500 BC, then they have nothing to do with Andronovo or Sintastha.
It has been repeated shown that, prior to the advent of literacy, collective oral memory does not last more than 2 - 4 generations, ~ 100- 200 years Max.
So whatever the Rigveda's were conveying, its about events happening in south Asia

Andronovo is in his earliest stage definitely related to Indo-Aryans or we need to argue that Indo-Aryans teleported from the Ural region to South Asia because prior to Andronovo there is nothing between the Ural and South Asia which could be Indo-Iranian. Sintashta was not ancestral to Indo-Aryans in my opinion . They lacked L657 also. When get ancient genomes from earliest southern Andronovo or Potapovka we will maybe find L657 and people ancestral to Indo-Aryans. The conflict between Indo-Aryans and Dasa took place in South Asia and South Central Asia but my impression is that it had roots in an older Iranic and Indo-Aryan conflict in the steppe.

pegasus
06-19-2016, 06:49 AM
Cold is right , battles in the Rig ved, are clearly taking place in Central Asia or the bordering Southern Steppes. The fortification descriptions match those you find there , like Gonur Tepe in Turkmenistan.
Given that, I think the date for Rig Veda, is couple hundred years before 1500 BC , which is that date used with assumption it was written with the demise of the IVC.


Sintashta is assumed to be Indo Iranian , but given its date and the Indo Uralic angle, I think its definitely Iranian/Iranic. By 2000 BC, any remaining proto Indo Aryan tribes on the Steppe had been wiped out by the Iranic tribes or absorbed.
From the Bronze Age to the Iron Age, the Steppe seem to be dominated by Iranic tribes.

Gravetto-Danubian
06-19-2016, 06:50 AM
Andronovo is in his earliest stage definitely related to Indo-Aryans or we need to argue that Indo-Aryans teleported from the Ural region to South Asia because prior to Andronovo there is nothing between the Ural and South Asia which could be Indo-Iranian. Sintashta was not ancestral to Indo-Aryans in my opinion . They lacked L657 also. When get ancient genomes from earliest southern Andronovo or Potapovka we will maybe find L657 and people ancestral to Indo-Aryans. The conflict between Indo-Aryans and Dasa took place in South Asia and South Central Asia but my impression is that it had roots in an older Iranic and Indo-Aryan conflict in the steppe.

Fascinating, thanks.
Yes we need more aDNA . I think things got competitive on the precarious steppe. Indeed we see a 'conflict' in the replacement of Z2013 lineages by Z93 (although this was mostly environmental).
I think also much of the east Caspian area was a desert, so- as you - there must have been key areas of interaction between the southernmost Andronovo groups and BMAC at some point, perhaps after 2000 BC

Jean M
06-19-2016, 11:19 AM
As I stated in the main thread, the Ghandara grave culture is being dated to 2200 BC (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287463991_14C_chronology_of_burial_grounds_of_the_ Andronovo_period_Middle_Bronze_Age_in_Baraba_fores t_steppe_western_Siberia)

The paper you link to is not about the Gandhara grave culture. It gives radiocarbon dates for Andronovo sites in the northern part of the region between the Ob and Irtysh Rivers i.e. a relatively small part of the vast area which was penetrated by Andronovo. The conclusion:


This paper focuses on the chronology of Middle Bronze Age complexes in the Baraba forest steppe (western Siberia). Three sites were radiocarbon dated, Stary Tartas 4, Sopka 2, and Tartas 1. The Late Krotovo culture was dated to the 18–19th centuries BC, the Andronovo complex (Fedorovo stage) to the 15–18th centuries BC, and the Mixed Andronovo complex dated to the 15–17th centuries BC. These values are some 300–500 yr older than previously thought, and the new results are consistent with 14C dates of the Andronovo cultural complex in northern Eurasia. Based on these data, the 15th century BC is the upper chronological limit of the Andronovo period.

For the Gandhara grave culture see (1600 BC - 500 BC), see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhara_grave_culture

It would be no surprise to find that this culture followed on from one reflecting trade from the BMAC to the IVC, and that when II-speakers took over the last remnants of the BMAC, they were well aware of the route south and gradually trickled along it themselves.

Gravetto-Danubian
06-19-2016, 11:29 AM
The paper you link to is not about the Gandhara grave culture. It gives radiocarbon dates for Andronovo sites in the northern part of the region between the Ob and Irtysh Rivers i.e. a relatively small part of the vast area which was penetrated by Andronovo. The conclusion:

Oh my apologies :biggrin1:

Try this (https://lra.le.ac.uk/handle/2381/11059)

With regard to Andronovo here (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287463991_14C_chronology_of_burial_grounds_of_the_ Andronovo_period_Middle_Bronze_Age_in_Baraba_fores t_steppe_western_Siberia) is a another paper. Table 3 shows a summary of datings from northern Kazakhstan to Siberia. They all site in 18-1500 BCE range.

Jean M
06-19-2016, 11:48 AM
Moreover, the Lazarides paper could not model South Asians as Sintashta or Andronovo. And neither could the guys on Eurogenes. Which is perplexing given the obvious path of R1a-Z93 .

I wouldn't worry about the struggles of the modellers at this stage. We know that Sintashta is derived from Yamnaya both from the Y-DNA and genome-wide comparisons. It is absolutely fine genetically for it to be the cradle of Proto-Indo-Iranian (not Proto-Indic). The path from there to India involved mixing with the BMAC. So it was not undiluted Sintashta that arrived in India. Once in India the Sintashta element would be further diluted by mixing with the remnants of the IVC - probably very similar to that of the BMAC. However the borders of India were not closed to further arrivals at that point. We can expect further infusions of Yamnaya-like DNA from the Scythian invasions. Anyone expecting a simple genetic story of India hasn't read its history. :)

Jean M
06-19-2016, 11:51 AM
Try this (https://lra.le.ac.uk/handle/2381/11059)

Yes that is fine. Exactly what I would expect, as in my previous post.

Jean M
06-19-2016, 11:53 AM
With regard to Andronovo ... they all sit in 18-1500 BCE range.

Yes those are the dates for Andronovo, if we don't include the early sites such as Sintashta, Petrovka, Arkaim etc, or we consider these early sites as a separate culture. It is not a problem. :)

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture

We can see Andronovo as the material evidence for the beginnings of the cultures of the steppe which eventually appear in history as the Sythians or Saka. As I said before, we have a solid sequence from Andronovo to Scythian. That sequence in one region, the Altai, was tested for DNA in a seminal study by Keyser et al 2009. She found a sequence of Y-DNA R1a. Both genetically and archaeologically, the trail could not be clearer. That is all we need to establish the link betwen the European steppe and the Eastern Iranian languages. Those still quibbling are on a losing wicket. :biggrin1:

Gravetto-Danubian
06-19-2016, 12:12 PM
I wouldn't worry about the struggles of the modellers at this stage. We know that Sintashta is derived from Yamnaya both from the Y-DNA and genome-wide comparisons. It is absolutely fine genetically for it to be the cradle of Proto-Indo-Iranian (not Proto-Indic). The path from there to India involved mixing with the BMAC. So it was not undiluted Sintashta that arrived in India. Once in India the Sintashta element would be further diluted by mixing with the remnants of the IVC - probably very similar to that of the BMAC. However the borders of India were not closed to further arrivals at that point. We can expect further infusions of Yamnaya-like DNA from the Scythian invasions. Anyone expecting a simple genetic story of India hasn't read its history. :)

Ha, the 'modellers'. Good term
You're quite right Jean. I wasn't suggesting anything contrary to the general scheme, nor do I think anyone who knows a little about it all would think it's going to be a simple model for south Asians.
It's just a matter of time and a few more dots. I want them to look at Semirech’ye

Jean M
06-19-2016, 12:20 PM
Perhaps it was mediated via an early offshoot via BMAC, but I again doubt this scenario because there barely any steppe elements in BMAC apart from odd steppe ceramics containing milk residue - suggesting they came - at least initially - as traders of products.

We have to be very precise here. Although the first excavator of the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (Viktor Sarianidi) thought it was IE, this has not convinced other archaeologists or linguists. It developed from Iranian farming cultures. What is being proposed is that the BMAC initially interacted with and influenced some of the Sintashta-type steppe people, creating a hybrid (Tazabag'yab) around the Aral Sea, which eventually took over the remnants of the BMAC after its original population sought greener pastures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria-Margiana_Archaeological_Complex


Interactions with other cultures

BMAC materials have been found in the Indus civilisation, on the Iranian plateau, and in the Persian Gulf.[8] Finds within BMAC sites provide further evidence of trade and cultural contacts. They include an Elamite-type cylinder seal and a Harappan seal stamped with an elephant and Indus script found at Gonur-depe.[12] The relationship between Altyn-Depe and the Indus Valley seems to have been particularly strong. Among the finds there were two Harappan seals and ivory objects. The Harappan settlement of Shortugai in Northern Afghanistan on the banks of the Amu Darya probably served as a trading station.[5]

There is evidence of sustained contact between the BMAC and the Eurasian steppes to the north, intensifying c. 2000 BCE. In the delta of the Amu Darya where it reaches the Aral Sea, its waters were channeled for irrigation agriculture by people whose remains resemble those of the nomads of the Andronovo Culture. This is interpreted as nomads settling down to agriculture, after contact with the BMAC. The culture they created is known as Tazabag'yab.[13] About 1800 BCE, the walled BMAC centres decreased sharply in size. Each oasis developed its own types of pottery and other objects. Also pottery of the Andronovo-Tazabag'yab culture to the north appeared widely in the Bactrian and Margian countryside. Many BMAC strongholds continued to be occupied and Andronovo-Tazabagyab coarse incised pottery occurs within them (along with the previous BMAC pottery) as well as in pastoral camps outside the mudbrick walls. In the highlands above the Bactrian oases in Tajikistan, kurgan cemeteries of the Vaksh and Bishkent type appeared with pottery that mixed elements of the late BMAC and Andronovo-Tazabagyab traditions.[14]


For refs see the Wikipedia article.

Gravetto-Danubian
06-19-2016, 12:29 PM
We have to be very precise here. Although the first excavator of the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (Viktor Sarianidi) thought it was IE, this has not convinced other archaeologists or linguists. It developed from Iranian farming cultures. What is being proposed is that the BMAC initially interacted with and influenced some of the Sintashta-type steppe people, creating a hybrid (Tazabag'yab) around the Aral Sea, which eventually took over the remnants of the BMAC after its original population sought greener pastures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria-Margiana_Archaeological_Complex



For refs see the Wikipedia article.

Which part are we being specific about ?
That BMAC was non-IE ? Mallory thought it was beginning to be penetrated by pastoralists. But I think itll be just like Iranian Chalcolithic


Although those 'sustained contacts ' mentioned in the Wikipedia article are more like what I just suggested: trade, especially secondary products coming from nearby pastoralists.

See "Differentiated Landscapes and Non-uniform Complexity among Bronze Age Societies of the Eurasian Steppe'. Has a section on BMAC

Jean M
06-19-2016, 04:41 PM
Which part are we being specific about ? That BMAC was non-IE ? Mallory thought it was beginning to be penetrated by pastoralists. But I think it'll be just like Iranian Chalcolithic.


This is exactly what we need to be specific about. The BMAC proper, itself, per se, looks solidly based on Iranian Neolithic foundations. Rectangular brick houses = Near Eastern origin. In genetic terms, we can expect it to be loaded with Y-DNA J.

While it was flourishing, it was in contact with various other cultures, as I quoted above, including Sintashta in the north, Iran and the Persian Gulf in the west and Harappan in the south. So this is the phase in which we can envisage the metal-working, chariot-making steppe people starting to:

understand what irrigation agriculture is and borrowing the words from the BMAC language to describe it.
understand brick building and borrowing the words from the BMAC language to describe it.
learn about trade routes to the south - connections with Iran, the Persian Gulf and IVC.

During this phase, a group of steppe people, probably mixed with BMAC people, decided to try this irrigation-farming lark near the Aral Sea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tazabagyab_culture

Then the BMAC declined. The culture crashed. (Dryer climate?) People probably wended their way south to the Indus Valley or elsewhere. The hybrid known as the Tazabagyab culture seems to have moved into the former BMAC strongholds. This is the point at which we could envisage a further mixing with the BMAC remnants to create a hybrid culture, genetically Y-DNA R1a and J. From here we can picture some charioteers going west to take over a Hurrian kingdom (Mitanni), while others gradually followed the well-worn path south into the Swat Valley.

Jean M
06-20-2016, 01:23 PM
The issue is, the entire archaeology of Andronovo horizon needs an overhaul- as pointed out by Frachetti in his book

You mean Michael Frachetti's contribution to Social Complexity in Prehistoric Eurasia Monuments, Metals and Mobility ed Bryan K. Hanks, Katheryn M. Linduff (2009)? http://ebooks.cambridge.org/chapter.jsf?bid=CBO9780511605376

Or his actual book Pastoralist Landscapes and Social Interaction in Bronze Age Eurasia, Berkeley: University of California Press 2008?

His more recent outline of his thinking on the topic is in my online library for those interested. Archaeology> Steppe > Nomadism
Michael D. Frachetti, Multiregional emergence of mobile pastoralism and nonuniform institutional complexity across Eurasia, Current Anthropology, Vol. 53, No. 1 (February 2012) with comments from various experts.

Gravetto-Danubian
06-20-2016, 01:42 PM
This is exactly what we need to be specific about. The BMAC proper, itself, per se, looks solidly based on Iranian Neolithic foundations. Rectangular brick houses = Near Eastern origin. In genetic terms, we can expect it to be loaded with Y-DNA J.

While it was flourishing, it was in contact with various other cultures, as I quoted above, including Sintashta in the north, Iran and the Persian Gulf in the west and Harappan in the south. So this is the phase in which we can envisage the metal-working, chariot-making steppe people starting to:

understand what irrigation agriculture is and borrowing the words from the BMAC language to describe it.
understand brick building and borrowing the words from the BMAC language to describe it.
learn about trade routes to the south - connections with Iran, the Persian Gulf and IVC.

During this phase, a group of steppe people, probably mixed with BMAC people, decided to try this irrigation-farming lark near the Aral Sea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tazabagyab_culture

Then the BMAC declined. The culture crashed. (Dryer climate?) People probably wended their way south to the Indus Valley or elsewhere. The hybrid known as the Tazabagyab culture seems to have moved into the former BMAC strongholds. This is the point at which we could envisage a further mixing with the BMAC remnants to create a hybrid culture, genetically Y-DNA R1a and J. From here we can picture some charioteers going west to take over a Hurrian kingdom (Mitanni), while others gradually followed the well-worn path south into the Swat Valley.

Yes I agree.
I think the post-BMAC phase is still enigmatic.

You have probably read this also, but this is a good paper "Ulug-Depe in the frame of Turkmenistan Iron Age: an overview"

Jean M
06-20-2016, 02:52 PM
You have probably read this also, but this is a good paper "Ulug-Depe in the frame of Turkmenistan Iron Age: an overview"

No I hadn't seen it. It has gone straight into my library thanks. :)

Tomenable
06-20-2016, 03:33 PM
When it comes to the issue of Scythians:

Here an interesting analysis of Iron Age Scythian DNA by Davidski:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/12/the-scythian.html

==============

Iron Age Volga Scythian sample compared to modern populations:

Genetically North-Eastern European + Native Siberian admixture:


Identical-by-State (IBS) similarity

Lithuanian 0.645247
Estonian 0.645233
Latvian 0.645024
Russian_Kostroma 0.644946
Irish 0.644902
Orcadian 0.644792
Norwegian 0.644754
Belorussian 0.644727
Swedish 0.644667
Polish 0.644664
Austrian 0.644639
Danish 0.644587
English_Cornwall 0.644556
Belgian 0.644552
Scottish_Argyll 0.644548

(...)

Scythians were the descendants of Bronze Age Eastern European migrants to South Siberia, who expanded west across the Eurasian steppe during the Iron Age and eventually ended up back in Europe.

Doesn't look like modern Iranic-speakers, but also not Turkic at all.

It looks Indo-European, so at least closer to Iranic than to Turkic.

Jean M
06-20-2016, 04:20 PM
Doesn't look like modern Iranic-speakers

What makes you say that? Has there been a comparison with modern Iranic-speakers? If so, which ones? The modern people I would expect to be closest to the Scythians are Eastern Iranian speakers: Pashto or Yaghnobi language speakers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Iranian_languages

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaghnobi_people


The Yaghnobi NRY portrait is one dominated by the presence of Haplogroup R - its origins remain unclear - and of R1a1, a sublineage associated with Central Asia/South Asia and evidently related to the Kurgan Culture in East Europe or to early Iranian expansion into the area c. 3000 BC.[6] The next most important Y-DNA contribution to the Yaghnobi is that of haplogroup J2, associated with the spread of agriculture in, and from, the neolithic Near East.[6]

Ral
02-11-2018, 08:32 PM
I thought this material would be interesting to those who are interested in archeology. I pulled this text from an untranslatable PDF file.
The text is too complicated to be translated by me. Everyone can try to translate it using Google (but I think for him it will be difficult too). However, the main meaning of the text should be clear. I wrapped this text in the spoiler tag.(About chariots in Eurasic Steppe).
Всероссийский археологический съезд. 2011. Великий Новгород.
К вопросу о колесницах эпохи бронзы евразийской степи–лесостепи (происхождение, назначение, значение)
А.В. Моисеев
Воронежский государственный университет, Воронеж

В материалах рубежа средней поздней бронзы евразийской степи-лесостепи выделяется серия погребений, относящихся к разным культурным образованиям (бабинские, абашевские, синташтинские, петровские, покровского и потаповского типов, ранне-срубные древности), но к сравнительно узкому хронологическому интервалу (200-300 лет.) и объединенных присутствием в них остатков колесниц (чаще всего,их частей) или колесничного снаряжения и упряжи (главным образом, псалиев). Словно нечто само собой разумеющееся эти колесницы интерпретированы как «боевые» (более осторожные оценки Виноградов, 2003. С. 263 266; другие авторы и работы в явном меньшинстве), а их значение как в высшей степени исключительное, позволяющее говорить о «героической эпохе»,о развитой социальной стратификации, о «колесничьей аристократии» (Е.Е. Кузьмина), в частности, сыгравшей определяющую роль в формировании Волго-Уральского очага культурогенеза (Бочкарев, 2010. С. 52 59, 116 118, др.), о выходе
на предгосударственный (минимум) уровень развития, об изобретении колесницы в степях Евразии (Чередниченко, 1976; и многие другие авторы) и т.п. Эти широкие выводы, мало подтверждающиеся иными материалами (напр., поселений), основаны почти исключительно на погребениях с колесницами. Но так ли прочно это основание?

Происхождение.

Сохраняют силу высказанные еще Г. Чайлдом аргументы в пользу единого центра и однократности происхождения колесницы в Древнем мире (Кожин, 1985. С. 176). Таковым центром, несомненно, является Древний Передний Восток. Парноколесная легкая боевая колесница на конской упряжи, с колесами на спицах (о которой чаще всего и идет речь применительно к евразийской степи лесостепи) существенная модификация бытовавшей на Древнем Востоке ранее (с начала III тыс. до н.э.), но также всецело продукт древневосточной инженерно-технической мысли (Горелик, 1985; Кожин,1985. С. 176; и др.).
Пути распространения колесниц в евразийской степи-лесостепи могли быть как с запада на восток (Матвеев, 2005; и др.),
так и в обратном направлении (Отрощенко, 2009; др.). Все же вероятнее первый вариант. Отметим, что в Синташте
даже первые «колесничные лошади» привозные из ареала древневосточного культурного влияния (Косинцев, 2008. С. 122 124, 127 128).
Не исключено и два (западный и восточный) независимых (но имеющих общий древневосточный источник) вектора распространения колесниц в евразийской степи-лесостепи, столкнувшихся в конечном итоге на Волге. В этой связи сравниваются две традиции изготовления костяных псалиев с шипами (Усачук, 2007. С. 16 17), отражающие, по нашему мнению, различные решения одной проблемы: создания древневосточным бронзовым прототипам аналогов из рога, кости, дерева.
Колесницы же ранней стадии развития (до изобретения конской упряжи и широкого использования колеса на спицах)
могли (через Кавказский регион) стать известны в катакомбной среде, но широкого распространения ни в ней, ни, тем паче, за ее пределами не получили.
Что же до гипотезы о евразийской прародине колесницы, то бремя (надо полагать, непосильное) доказательства по-прежнему лежит на утверждающей стороне.

Назначение.

Боевое назначение евразийских колесниц далеко не очевидно. Использование их, их частей, имитаций, символики и просто упряжи в погребальном обряде, строго говоря, свидетельствуют только о культовом значении.
Не подтверждают иного и изобразительные материалы евразийской степи-лесостепи.
Имеющие своим прототипом древневосточную колесницу, ее евразийские дериваты упрощены и возможно не вполне функциональны (в плане боевых качеств). Вообще сомнительно, что в обществах эпохи бронзы евразийской степи лесостепи имелись условия (да и сама потребность) в раскрытии потенциала древневосточной колесницы именно как средства ведения боя. Одиночные колесницы довольно беспомощны в сражении (и никак не могут оказать «ошеломляющего психологического эффекта», о котором часто пишут). Как показывает древневосточная практика, колесницы эффективны при условии их более-менее крупных формирований и только в крупных (сотни и тысячи участников) сражениях (Горелик, 1985. С. 193, др.; Кожин, 1985. С. 175, др.).
Создание и обеспечение (ремонт, запчасти и т. п.) массовых отрядов колесниц требует крупной, высокотехнологичной,
в известной степени стандартизированной отрасли ремесленного производства,
труднопредставимой в обществах эпохи бронзы евразийской степи-лесостепи (во всяком случае, следов ее пока не обнаружено ни на одном поселении).
Еще труднее представить себе массовые баталии на этих пространствах в рассматриваемую эпоху с почти тотальной неукрепленностью поселений.

Значение.

Колесница, стремительно, но ненадолго, вошедшая на рубеже средней и поздней бронзы в обиход «элиты» разнокультурных обществ евразийской степи-лесостепи как культовый и статусный артефакт, нашла свое место в религиозных представлениях, но вряд ли оказала существенное влияние на жизнь населения, познакомившегося с ней. Быстрое исчезновение колесниц в евразийской степи-лесостепи в позднем бронзовом веке (еще за несколько веков до появления конницы, с которой, как правило, это исчезновение связывается) дополнительно свидетельствует о ее невостребованности в указанном регионе.
Для сравнения, в Средиземноморье колесницы существуют (в т.ч. и после появления конницы) до конца Древнего мира.

Piquerobi
08-25-2019, 09:08 PM
Arkaim has been associated with the Indo-Iranians:


Arkaim is attributed to the early Proto-Indo-Iranian of the Sintashta culture, which some scholars believe represents the proto-Indo-Iranians before their split into different groups and migration to Central Asia and from there to Persia and India and other parts of Eurasia (see Indo-Iranian migration theory).

Scholars have identified the structure of Arkaim as the cities built "reproducing the model of the universe" described in ancient Aryan/Iranian spiritual literature, the Vedas and the Avesta. The structure consists of three concentric rings of walls and three radial streets, reflecting the city of King Yima described in the Rigveda. The foundation walls and the dwellings of the second ring are built according to swastika-like patterns; the same symbol is found on various artefacts. Arkaim is designated as a "national and spiritual shrine" of Russia and has become a holy site for Rodnover, Zoroastrian and other religious movements.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkaim

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Arkaim_Infographic.jpg

tipirneni
08-26-2019, 12:37 AM
Arkaim has been associated with the Indo-Iranians:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkaim

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Arkaim_Infographic.jpg

https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-asia/older-stonehenge-arkaim-russia-00251

Says it is a stonehedge like Megalith site of different culture. No samples have been found to date on the site.

https://mysteriousuniverse.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Arkaim_Low-768x473.jpg

Censored
08-26-2019, 01:03 AM
Arkaim has been associated with the Indo-Iranians:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkaim

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Arkaim_Infographic.jpg

I wonder how those guys survived winter with houses like that. One heavy snowfall and it's over.

tipirneni
08-26-2019, 01:34 AM
I wonder how those guys survived winter with houses like that. One heavy snowfall and it's over.

Usually heavy wooden stuff are lost leaving only stone behind. The stonehedge had those wooden cover & heavy grass like insulation mterial that protects from cold
https://www.sciencemag.org/sites/default/files/styles/inline__699w__no_aspect/public/durringtonwalls_16x9.jpg?itok=sr9CQaqN
ARkaim had elongated skulls as shown in pic
https://hiddenincatours.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/arkaim-650x366.jpg

Piquerobi
09-03-2019, 01:02 PM
David W Anthony:


Similarities between the rituals excavated at Sintashta and Arkaim and those described later in the RV (Rig Veda) have solved, for many, the problem of Indo-Iranian origins. The parallels include a reference in RV 10.18 to a kurgan ("let them... bury death in this hill"), a roofed burial chamber supported with posts ("let the fathers hold up this pillar for you"), and with shored walls ("I shore up the earth all around you; let me not injure you as I lay down this clod of earth"). This is a precise description of Sintashta and Potapovka-Filatovka grave pits, which had wooden plank roofs supported by timber posts and plank shoring walls. The horse sacrifice at a royal funeral is described in RV 1.162: "Keep the limbs undamaged and place them in the proper pattern. Cut them part, calling out piece by piece". The horse sacrifices in Sintashta, Potapovka, and Filatovka graves match this description, with the lower legs of horses carefully cut apart at the joints and placed in and over the grave. The preference for horses as a sacrificial animals in Sintashta funeral rituals, a species choice setting Sintashta aparta from earlier steppe cultures, was again paralleled in the RV. [...]

In many small ways the cultures between the upper Don and Tobol rivers in the northern steppes showed a common kinship with the Aryans of the Rig Veda and Avesta. Between 2100 and 1800 BCE they invented the chariot, organized themselves into stronghold-based chiefdoms, armed themselves with new kinds of weapons, created a new style of funeral rituals that involved spectacular public displays of wealth and generosity, and began to mine and produce metals on a scale previously unimagined in the steppes. Their actions reverberated across the Eurasian continent. The northern forest frontier began to dissolve east of the Urals as it had earlier west of the Urals; metallurgy and some aspects of Sintashta settlement designs spread north into the Siberian forests. Chariotry spread west through the Ukrainian steppe MVK culture into southeastern Europe's Monteoru (phase Ic1-Ib), Vattin, and Otomani cultures, perhaps with the satem dialects that later popped up in Armenian, Albanian, and Phrygian, all of which are thought to have evolved in southeastern Europe. (Pre-Greek must have departed before this, as it did not share in the satem innovations). And the Ural frontier was finally broken - herding economies spread eastward across the steppes. With them went the eastern daughters of Sintashta, the offspring who would later emerge into history as the Iranian and Vedic Aryans. These eastern and southern connections finally brought northern steppe cultures into face-to-face contact with the old civilizations of Asia.
pages 408-411, "The Horse, the Wheel and Language - How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes shaped the Modern World"

Chariot model, Arkaim (it reminds me of the Bhagavad Gita!):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/%D0%92_%D0%BC%D1%83%D0%B7%D0%B5%D0%B5_-_%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BD% D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B5_%D0%90%D1%80%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B8%D 0%BC.jpg

tipirneni
09-03-2019, 03:08 PM
David W Anthony:


pages 408-411, "The Horse, the Wheel and Language - How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes shaped the Modern World"

Chariot model, Arkaim (it reminds me of the Bhagavad Gita!):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/%D0%92_%D0%BC%D1%83%D0%B7%D0%B5%D0%B5_-_%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BD% D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B5_%D0%90%D1%80%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B8%D 0%BC.jpg

yes looks very similar to ones shown in old paintings

pegasus
11-11-2019, 07:20 PM
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16399-The-Punjab&p=619290&viewfull=1#post619290


No, I don't think Sintashta types were completely formed 6000 years ago, that would be absurd there is no caste system on the Volga lol , the PIE of the same period are so CHG enriched. Either this sample has a wrong date or is an outlier like sample which later became the norm. Also these Sintashta types are formed in Corded Ware when , Yamna/Repin types start mixing at an increased rate with GAC like farmers.

The bone of contention is Yamna is not ancestral to IIr groups due to the lack of R1a, so it has to Repin groups further North, who are yet to be sampled.

Coldmountains
11-11-2019, 07:41 PM
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16399-The-Punjab&p=619290&viewfull=1#post619290


No, I don't think Sintashta types were completely formed 6000 years ago, that would be absurd there is no caste system on the Volga lol , the PIE of the same period are so CHG enriched. Either this sample has a wrong date or is an outlier like sample which later became the norm. Also these Sintashta types are formed in Corded Ware when , Yamna/Repin types start mixing at an increased rate with GAC like farmers.

The bone of contention is Yamna is not ancestral to IIr groups due to the lack of R1a, so it has to Repin groups further North, who are yet to be sampled.

well the Poltavka outliner is also 5000 years old and also rich in EEF ancestry and Sintashta-like. His EEF-ancestry is also rather GAC-like (eef +significant WHG). In the timeframe of this Sredny Stog sample some other Z93 carriers were definetly more Steppe/Progress-Eneolithic shifted and other maybe even more EEF but later the EEF/steppe ratio stabilized . We still see various EEF/steppe ratios among Sintashta samples.

pegasus
11-11-2019, 08:52 PM
well the Poltavka outliner is also 5000 years old and also rich in EEF ancestry and Sintashta-like. His EEF-ancestry is also rather GAC-like (eef +significant WHG). In the timeframe of this Sredny Stog sample some other Z93 carriers were definetly more Steppe/Progress-Eneolithic shifted and other maybe even more EEF but later the EEF/steppe ratio stabilized . We still see various EEF/steppe ratios among Sintashta samples.

Outlier is one thing but the main population seems to form in Corded Ware , I find it hard to believe Sredny Stog types were the norm before CCW . Repin men probably had more ANF but there was increased amounts of it once they started moving West and mixed with local GAC groups even further. I think now it all rests on finding genomes of these late Repin men.

parasar
11-11-2019, 09:02 PM
...
ARkaim had elongated skulls as shown in pic
https://hiddenincatours.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/arkaim-650x366.jpg

Kushan Hoon

Kushan:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/KushanHead.jpg


"An example for skull deformation from European Huns .... the Huns are named as "Kushank""
Hoon:
http://www.ernak-horde.com/hunskull.jpg


"The Kushans even practised the custom of artificial cranial deformation which would later be introduced into Europe by the Huns and Alans ..."
https://books.google.com/books?id=jCpncXFzoFgC&pg=PA33

"In Kashmir, at Harwan, I marveled at the artificially deformed skulls on the stamped tiles of Kushan times, those skulls that had impressed me so much when I first saw them in the museum in Vienna and that I had measured as a student."
http://books.google.com/books?id=CrUdgzSICxcC&pg=PR23

Coldmountains
11-11-2019, 10:01 PM
Outlier is one thing but the main population seems to form in Corded Ware , I find it hard to believe Sredny Stog types were the norm before CCW . Repin men probably had more ANF but there was increased amounts of it once they started moving West and mixed local GAC groups even further. I think now it all rests on finding genomes of these late Repin men.

well Z93 populated the southeastern regions of Corded Ware where CT and GAC admixture penetrated into the forest/steppe zones. So early Corded Ware/Steppe groups there would have more EEF than CWC Groups in the Baltics for example where EEF ancestry did not exist prior to CWC. I am wondering how will be the autosomal profile of Z93 in the Usatovo Kurgans. According to Davidski Usatovo is maybe ancestral to CWC.

parasar
11-13-2019, 09:32 PM
Kushan Hoon

...
Hoons, Avars, and Arpad Magyars.


"Hun/3 belongs to Hg R1a1a1b2a2- Z2124, a subclade of R1a1a1b2-Z93, the east Eurasian subbranch of R1a. Today Z2124 is most frequent in Kyrgyzstan and Afghanistan, but is also widespread among Karachai-Balkars and Baskhirs18. Z2124 was widespread on the Bronze Age steppe, especially in the Afanasievo[?] and Sintashta cultures19 and R1a detected in Xiongnus20,21 very likely belong to the same branch. Two samples from the Karos Conqueror cemeteries (K1/3286 and K2/61) were also classified as R1a-Z2124 and two Avar age individuals (DK/701 and MM/227) belong to the same R1a1a1b2a-Z94 branch but marker Z2124 was not covered in latter samples...

This Hg was detected just in the Conqueror group (K2/18, K2/41 and K1/10) ...

east Eurasian R1a subclade, R1a1a1b2a-Z94 seems to be a common element of the Hun, Avar and Conqueror elite."
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-53105-5



"A few decades after the collapse of the Avar Khaganate (c. 822 AD), Álmos and his son Árpád conquered the Carpathian Basin (c. 862–895 AD) (Szőke 2014)...

King Béla III was inferred to belong to haplogroup R1a. The R1a Y haplogroup relates paternally to more than 10% of men in a wide geographic area from South Asia to Central Eastern Europe and South Siberia (Underhill et al. 2010). "
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs12520-018-0609-7

parasar
11-14-2019, 05:45 PM
...
The only thing that is a given is that Indo-Aryans and Sredny Stog share the same paternity, it does not imply that this very individual himself has to be the progenitor of Indo-Aryans.
...

Normally I would say that that is correct. But this sample is so old that if Z95+ Y26+, Y2-, I would not bet against it being directly ancestral!
The sample is also the earliest UDG-treated and confirmed with 13910*T lactase persistence allele.

pegasus
11-16-2019, 09:55 AM
Kushan Hoon

Kushan:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/KushanHead.jpg


"An example for skull deformation from European Huns .... the Huns are named as "Kushank""
Hoon:
http://www.ernak-horde.com/hunskull.jpg


"The Kushans even practised the custom of artificial cranial deformation which would later be introduced into Europe by the Huns and Alans ..."
https://books.google.com/books?id=jCpncXFzoFgC&pg=PA33

"In Kashmir, at Harwan, I marveled at the artificially deformed skulls on the stamped tiles of Kushan times, those skulls that had impressed me so much when I first saw them in the museum in Vienna and that I had measured as a student."
http://books.google.com/books?id=CrUdgzSICxcC&pg=PR23

Do Brahmins in Bihar practice this like the Kurgan style burials ??

parasar
11-16-2019, 04:56 PM
Do Brahmins in Bihar practice this like the Kurgan style burials ??

Not of this kind with a pointy occiput.
The child does have head shaping done before the skull sutures set.

The kurgan style burials also are no longer practiced for the past 3 generations. The older ones mainly have cremation ash, but it would interesting to see if skull shaping was done for children who were normally not cremated.

Interestingly at the supposed "vedic" or "asurya" (depending upon perspective) mounds the same gold leaf goddess was found, as in later Kushan mounds.

"The stupa at Nandangarh at N 26° 59´11˝.43 and E 84° 23´39˝.21 in West Champaran district in northwest Bihar near the Nepal Terai is colossal. The archaeological site of Lauriya-Nandangarh includes the ruins of the colossal stupa, a well-preserved, polished, monolithic Ashoka pillar, and some twenty small mounds. All the ruins are located within a radius of one kilometer. The colossal stupa is in Nandangarh, and the Ashoka pillar and the twenty small mounds are in Lauriya. Lauriya-Nandangarh, Bhakra, Kesariya, Lauriya-Areraj, and Rampurwa, on the River Gandak “situated along the high road from Pataliputra to Nepal,”11 are all distinguished by Ashoka pillars having the “lion capital with the curiously bell-shaped member underneath the abacus.”12 The Nandangarh stupa’s colossal size signifies its importance ... Two mounds yielded two small gold leaves with the repoussé figure of a standing female ...
they appeared two to three centuries before their Gandharan counterparts and before the advent of the Kushans into India. Quite compelling, however, are their occurrence in Bihar in eastern India, nearly 1,400 kilometers east-southeast of Gandharan Taxila."
THE COLOSSAL STUPA AT NANDANGARH: ITS RECONSTRUCTION AND SIGNIFICANCE

client
11-17-2019, 08:55 AM
Yes, Gujar 83 is incredibly similar to Bustan outlier who is quite different from the last IVC like sample from 400 years earlier( found interestingly around the same region).

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15471-Post-HarappaWorld-results&p=614322&viewfull=1#post614322

"sample": "Gujar_Pakistan:G-83",
"fit": 1.9828,
"UZB_Bustan_BA_o2": 96.67,
"Anatolia_Barcin_N": 3.33,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 0,
"closestDistances": [

{
"sample": "Gujar_Pakistan:G-83",
"fit": 1.8752,
"UZB_Bustan_BA_o2": 92.5,
"TKM_Gonur1_BA": 5,
"Anatolia_Barcin_N": 2.5,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 0,
"closestDistances": [


vaaho models

Target: UZB_Bustan_BA_o2
Distance: 1.5204% / 0.01520390
Aggregated
53.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3
32.6 TKM_Gonur1_BA
11.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA
2.2 NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP

Target: Gujar_Pakistan:G-83
Distance: 1.7900% / 0.01790032
Aggregated
49.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3
36.4 TKM_Gonur1_BA
12.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA
2.0 NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP

My guess this is a very early Indo Aryan type.



isn't it said that Proto-Indo-Aryans and Proto-Iranians split in the steppes itself? Though some say they split after interaction with BMAC.
So Early Indo-Aryans were already a thing during BMAC(at the very least), presumably prior to interaction with IVC/InPe, because of Mitanni. Not to mention the Indo-Aryan specific vocabulary present in Uralic languages.

The distinction to be made here is that this is a proper Indian(Subcontinental)individual not just an "Indo-Aryan" as he harbours excess AHG and InPe ancestry.

Now my question was why do we see him at a site with signs of Vedic funerary customs?(Since he is obviously not an Early Indo-Aryan on his way to India, from the Steppes as per AMT, but someone from India/InPe)

Also, how old are the earliest fire altars in BMAC? AFAIK the site of Bustan isn't as old as Lothal, which also has Vedic style fire altars, I think.

pegasus
11-17-2019, 09:28 AM
isn't it said that Proto-Indo-Aryans and Proto-Iranians split in the steppes itself? Though some say they split after interaction with BMAC.
So Early Indo-Aryans were already a thing during BMAC(at the very least), presumably prior to interaction with IVC/InPe, because of Mitanni. Not to mention the Indo-Aryan specific vocabulary present in Uralic languages.

The distinction to be made here is that this is a proper Indian(Subcontinental)individual not just an "Indo-Aryan" as he harbours excess AHG and InPe ancestry.

Now my question was why do we see him at a site with signs of Vedic funerary customs?(Since he is obviously not an Early Indo-Aryan on his way to India, from the Steppes as per AMT, but someone from India/InPe)

Also, how old are the earliest fire altars in BMAC? AFAIK the site of Bustan isn't as old as Lothal, which also has Vedic style fire altars, I think.

The Vedic wave seems later. No he is not a Vedic Aryan on enroute but part of the earliest Dardic wave likely going for trade his ancestry proportions are different . They are clearly coming in waves its not just one pulse. Yes, the proper Vedi design shows up in Bustan first, I actually got 4 Brahmins where it does pop up (Namely Kashmiri, Bahuns, Gujarati and that UP one I use). He is not Proto Indo Aryan ie the ones lacking any SA related ancestry , but part of the modern Indo Aryan variation even though he is contemporary with Proto Indo Aryan types . Actually that is a good question , a Gujjar type at a site where the first Vedis appear is interesting. Though based of what Ryu said they were living in shadow societies outside these towns not in them. From my observation of Athirathra and the Garuda motifs they construct scream very late BMAC influences , my guess is your OG Vedic variant Indo Aryans ones arrive around post 1200 -1100 BC. This ritual from Yajurveda seems to be from Rishi Aruni's time IMO (900-800 BC).

Indo Aryan and Iranian split was on the Steppes not on the BMAC, and they are more archaic than Iranics based of what Anthony says.

client
11-17-2019, 11:09 AM
The Vedic wave seems later.
Why so?

No he is not a Vedic Aryan on enroute but part of the earliest Dardic wave likely going for trade his ancestry proportions are different . They are clearly coming in waves its not just one pulse.
In what way are the proportions different? He is closer to "Chamar" than all present day Dards and ancient Swat IA except Aligrama, but the thing is the latter is way more E Asian(and hence eastern Eurasian) shifted skewing the distances.
Distance to: Chamar
0.12677835 PAK_Aligrama_IA
0.14599955 UZB_Bustan_BA_o2
0.16339630 Kohistani
0.16469953 PAK_Katelai_IA
0.16480035 PAK_Gogdara_IA
0.16869469 PAK_Loebanr_IA
0.17558154 PAK_Udegram_IA
0.17639186 PAK_Butkara_IA
0.18368548 PAK_Arkotkila_IA
0.19307858 PAK_Barikot_IA
0.19893339 Kho_Singanali
0.20793414 Kalash
0.23985351 PAK_Loebanr_IA_o

Meaning he is more AHG than Swat Valley IA types(as noted by Narasimhan et al). As you head out from the Indian/InPe epicenter IVC amount of AHG would become a limiting factor(as it would decrease gradually).


Yes, the proper Vedi design shows up in Bustan first, I actually got 4 Brahmins where it does pop up (Namely Kashmiri, Bahuns, Gujarati and that UP one I use).What do you mean by this line


He is not Proto Indo Aryan ie the ones lacking any SA related ancestry , but part of the modern Indo Aryan variation even though he is contemporary with Proto Indo Aryan types . Actually that is a good question , a Gujjar type at a site where the first Vedis appear is interesting. Though based of what Ryu said they were living in shadow societies outside these towns not in them.
Where were these shadow societies located?


From my observation of Athirathra and the Garuda motifs they construct scream very late BMAC influences , my guess is your OG Vedic variant Indo Aryans ones arrive around post 1200 -1100 BC. This ritual from Yajurveda seems to be from Rishi Aruni's time IMO (900-800 BC).
But the Bustan site has fire altars in the same configuration as mentioned in the Grihya Sutra misnomer posted. These samples are dated to 1600-1300 BC or something.The fire altars at Lothal are probably even older(because the site older) and there is an indication of continuity of some funerary traditions(alignment of body) from IVC.
So what this makes me think is that the Indo-Aryans(Indics) who acquired influences from IVC/Post-IVC they encountered went to the post-BMAC site of Bustan and built those altars, based on the outliers.

Anyway what makes you say that Vedic Aryans arrived so late? Where were they prior to arrival?
The Kuru kingdom begins at 1200BC so that is a bare minimum date.

And then there's the argument of "no non-Indian landmarks in the Rigveda"




Indo Aryan and Iranian split was on the Steppes not on the BMAC, and they are more archaic than Iranics based of what Anthony says.

This is what I don't understand. If this is the case, why did they both "acquire" the same/similar BMAC words, concepts, customs?

pegasus
11-17-2019, 11:51 AM
Why so?

In what way are the proportions different? He is closer to "Chamar" than all present day Dards and ancient Swat IA except Aligrama, but the thing is the latter is way more E Asian(and hence eastern Eurasian) shifted skewing the distances.
Distance to: Chamar
0.12677835 PAK_Aligrama_IA
0.14599955 UZB_Bustan_BA_o2
0.16339630 Kohistani
0.16469953 PAK_Katelai_IA
0.16480035 PAK_Gogdara_IA
0.16869469 PAK_Loebanr_IA
0.17558154 PAK_Udegram_IA
0.17639186 PAK_Butkara_IA
0.18368548 PAK_Arkotkila_IA
0.19307858 PAK_Barikot_IA
0.19893339 Kho_Singanali
0.20793414 Kalash
0.23985351 PAK_Loebanr_IA_o

Meaning he is more AHG than Swat Valley IA types(as noted by Narasimhan et al). As you head out from the Indian/InPe epicenter IVC amount of AHG would become a limiting factor(as it would decrease gradually).

What do you mean by this line


Where were these shadow societies located?


But the Bustan site has fire altars in the same configuration as mentioned in the Grihya Sutra misnomer posted. These samples are dated to 1600-1300 BC or something.The fire altars at Lothal are probably even older(because the site older) and there is an indication of continuity of some funerary traditions(alignment of body) from IVC.
So what this makes me think is that the Indo-Aryans(Indics) who acquired influences from IVC/Post-IVC they encountered went to the post-BMAC site of Bustan and built those altars, based on the outliers.

Anyway what makes you say that Vedic Aryans arrived so late? Where were they prior to arrival?
The Kuru kingdom begins at 1200BC so that is a bare minimum date.

And then there's the argument of "no non-Indian landmarks in the Rigveda"





This is what I don't understand. If this is the case, why did they both "acquire" the same/similar BMAC words, concepts, customs?

Well Grey Ware does not reach the Gangetic plains until fairly late, thats the hallmark of these people.
Yes compared to the main cluster he is, but his AASI levels are not off kilter and he is still quite distant with Chamars but far closer to SPGT albeit on the more AASI side. Narsimhan seems to lump ENA with AASI but if you notice there are few East Asian like uniparental markers present, all Himalayan populations whether Western or Eastern seem to harbor varying levels of it.


"closestDistances": [
"PAK_Udegram_IA:I6899: 2.818387",
"PAK_Loebanr_IA:I5400: 2.969827",

"PAK_Loebanr_IA_o:I12138: 10.653556",
"Chamar:A259: 14.939772",


Its possible the IVC exerted influence religious/cultural influence on the BMAC and it back migrated with the new wave of Indo Aryans , but the assemblages are different, so I don't think so. The Lothal altars are not those ziggurat kind of altars, also these people never penetrated Gujarat in the late BA/early IA.

I have seen all sorts of ridiculous dates for the Kuru kingdom from 5000 years which seems to be standard for many Indian writers to 1000 BC, but I would think 1200 BC is the upper limit.
I will respond to the rest of your questions later .

client
11-17-2019, 12:41 PM
Well Grey Ware does not reach the Gangetic plains until fairly late, thats the hallmark of these people.
Yes compared to the main cluster he is, but his AASI levels are not off kilter and he is still quite distant with Chamars but far closer to SPGT albeit on the more AASI side. Narsimhan seems to lump ENA with AASI but if you notice there are few East Asian like uniparental markers present, all Himalayan populations whether Western or Eastern seem to harbor varying levels of it.


"closestDistances": [
"PAK_Udegram_IA:I6899: 2.818387",
"PAK_Loebanr_IA:I5400: 2.969827",

"PAK_Loebanr_IA_o:I12138: 10.653556",
"Chamar:A259: 14.939772",

But my point was not that he is closer to Chamars, it was that he is more InPe/AHG than the Swat Samples.


The ancestry of Bustan_BA_o2 resembles that of populations from the Late Bronze-Iron Age
Swat Valley and can be explained parsimoniously as a two-way mixture between a pool of
the Indus Periphery Cline individuals (“Indus_Periphery_Pool”) and either
Western_Steppe_MLBA, Central_Steppe_MLBA, or Steppe_MLBA_oBMAC. These
individuals can also be modeled as a mixture of SPGT with an additional ~30% ancestry from
the Indus_Periphery_Pool, suggesting that this individual’s ancestry was similar to that of the
SPGT albeit with higher proportions of ancestry related to AHG

Since the Dard ethnogenesis, take the case of Loebanr_IA_o(older) to Loebanr_IA(younger), one would expect InPe/AHG to increase with time. PAK_Loebanr_IA:I5400 and PAK_Udegram_IA:I6899 are both from the youngest layers of Loebanr_IA and Udegram_IA respectively.



Its possible the IVC exerted influence religious/cultural influence on the BMAC and it back migrated with the new wave of Indo Aryans , but the assemblages are different, so I don't think so. The underlined is what I initially thought.
Could this difference not have been an innovation of the people who took it to Bustan? Who may have been Indo-Aryan(Indics) as I am suggesting.


The Lothal altars are not those ziggurat kind of altars, also these people never penetrated Gujarat in the late BA/early IA.
Maybe altar sites yet to be discovered are up further north in the IVC region. I think they have been found in several places. My point was only that the ones at Lothal should be older than those in BMAC/Bustan.

pegasus
11-17-2019, 02:08 PM
But my point was not that he is closer to Chamars, it was that he is more InPe/AHG than the Swat Samples.



Since the Dard ethnogenesis, take the case of Loebanr_IA_o(older) to Loebanr_IA(younger), one would expect InPe/AHG to increase with time. PAK_Loebanr_IA:I5400 and PAK_Udegram_IA:I6899 are both from the youngest layers of Loebanr_IA and Udegram_IA respectively.


The underlined is what I initially thought.
Could this difference not have been an innovation of the people who took it to Bustan? Who may have been Indo-Aryan(Indics) as I am suggesting.


Maybe altar sites yet to be discovered are up further north in the IVC region. I think they have been found in several places. My point was only that the ones at Lothal should be older than those in BMAC/Bustan.

I think so, I notice burial traditions do show IVC influences, various shav positions. Parasar had a link on that somewhere.

As for as Vedi designs, the ones I have seen in Athirathra , look similar to those in Bustan and ones in Gomal. One interesting thing I was going to add classically in Athirathra they take a mare across a yantra at the end. The version Nambudiri Brahmins do is insanely elaborate and they do it rarely.

Honestly , while there are fire altars at lothal, they only show up in NW South Asia , once these Indo Aryan related groups come through. Fire worship was not really central in IVC religion afaik and the motivation for its importance would be from a far colder climate where fire/heat is mandatory for survival.


Bustan VI and the Indo-Aryans : In order to understand the meaning of this fire in
Bustan, it is necessary to establish the correspondences
symbolic of fire specifically Andronovian or
Indo-Iranian, and in particular Indo-Aryan. However, the association of
fire worship with cremation, with the sacrificial offering
active animals and a human being, the existence of graves
symbolic, etc., has very strong analogies with the
cults prevalent in Andronovo-fedorovo culture.

I would not get hung up on his qpAdm modelling he modeled Bustan outlier as 77% InPe and 23% Steppe LBA, which makes no sense since the sample is from the MBA and definitely is not that Steppe rich .

I think there will be considerable heterogenity among Dardic groups, Kho seem to have far more Pontic Steppe ancestry. The Parwak sample , Bolnat posted is interesting from the 7-8th century looks like a Kho.

client
11-17-2019, 03:27 PM
I think so, I notice burial traditions do show IVC influences, various shav positions. Parasar had a link on that somewhere.

Yes I learnt that detail from parasar.


As for as Vedi designs, the ones I have seen in Athirathra , look similar to those in Bustan and ones in Gomal. One interesting thing I was going to add classically in Athirathra they take a mare across a yantra at the end. The version Nambudiri Brahmins do is insanely elaborate and they do it rarely.

Interesting.
Similarity to the ones in Bustan may indicate that they were in fact Indo-Aryan(Indic) specific.


Honestly , while there are fire altars at lothal, they only show up in NW South Asia , once these Indo Aryan related groups come through.

https://scontent-frx5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/75561588_546109629542559_6749441260559269888_n.png ?_nc_cat=106&_nc_oc=AQlwyeHEMDZxAtxO9rkerVgU0lZsgYFjgbYPcGXmN-Dmjkr0_BBzwNxZJi7_RXdUmUg&_nc_ht=scontent-frx5-1.xx&oh=619c36f2905d0bfa8d63d32c710098d0&oe=5E830BE5

Fire altars have been found in(there are more I think) -
Lothal - Southern Gujarat

Amri - Sindh

Kalibangan - Northern Rajasthan

Rakhigarhi

Banawali - Haryana(120km Northeast of Kalibangan)


Images and further details:

Lothal
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DTRJYo5U8AAuM3K.jpg
Kalibangan
https://www.harappa.com/sites/default/files/styles/galleryformatter_slide/public/kalibangan-fire-altars.jpg?itok=nQTbiHJJ


Banawali
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DTRJe5kVMAAIV6U.jpg


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DTRM6B-VwAAO7zA.jpg


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DTRQ7o7VAAA-rTL.jpg


There is also a distinction between "fire altars" and industrial purpose fire places(for the production of specific styles of Terracotta cakes).


All these sites predate Bustan, and Gonur Depe to my knowledge - where InPe outliers have been found yet again.



Fire worship was not really central in IVC religion afaik and the motivation for its importance would be from a far colder climate where fire/heat is mandatory for survival.

That is really debatable to be honest, especially in light of the aforementioned.



Bustan VI and the Indo-Aryans : In order to understand the meaning of this fire in
Bustan, it is necessary to establish the correspondences
symbolic of fire specifically Andronovian or
Indo-Iranian, and in particular Indo-Aryan. However, the association of
fire worship with cremation, with the sacrificial offering
active animals and a human being, the existence of graves
symbolic, etc., has very strong analogies with the
cults prevalent in Andronovo-fedorovo culture.

The Andronovan links are based on sparse Andronovo-style pottery found in Bustan/BMAC that to some implied that fire worship was from the Steppes. Sure, many elements of Indo-Iranian ritualism may have origins with them, but this in particular I do not think so.

Among contemporary Indo-European cultures, the only ones known to perform/have performed fire-related rituals other than Indo-Iranians, are the Ancient Greeks and Romans - neither coming from particularly cold climates.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_fire_of_Vesta

Other than that perhaps one could find vaguely fire related ritualism among Celts.
I know though that Early Slavs practiced cremation, but I don't know what rituals they performed.

None of these groups have a concept of Yajna to my knowledge.




I would not get hung up on his qpAdm modelling he modeled Bustan outlier as 77% InPe and 23% Steppe LBA, which makes no sense since the sample is from the MBA and definitely is not that Steppe rich .
The models aren't that shabby at all(imo)
https://scontent-frx5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/74421099_529950897844884_3614727631175417856_n.png ?_nc_cat=102&_nc_oc=AQnL9c3Cl_jlh_-uXxiXzveZ4CwgMGpywQhQp4wTrlcFzhXzbC7TEiBXCdv_1y7fD 5c&_nc_ht=scontent-frx5-1.xx&oh=a50b1114bd092399d47f0a45ca88a80d&oe=5E4C6741

parasar
11-17-2019, 05:05 PM
...
Fire altars have been found in(there are more I think) -
Lothal - Southern Gujarat

Amri - Sindh

Kalibangan - Northern Rajasthan

Rakhigarhi

Banawali - Haryana(120km Northeast of Kalibangan)


Images and further details:
...

The fire I think comes from primeval times. In the Indic/Aryan traditions for maintaining a continuous fire a fire-pit was used. Wood was plentiful, and ghee was used as the fuel agent.
Huta, hutabhu https://books.google.com/books?id=_3NWAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA1174

The Iranians in BMAC continued that as a tradition even after maintaining a fire became easier.

Some have continued that tradition to the present day.
"Based on Persian inscriptions, the temple was used as a Hindu, Sikh, and Zoroastrian place of worship. "Atash" (آتش) is the Persian word for fire.[3] The pentagonal complex, which has a courtyard surrounded by cells for monks and a tetrapillar-altar in the middle, was built during the 17th and 18th centuries. It was abandoned in the late 19th century, probably due to the dwindling of the Indian population in the area. The natural eternal flame went out in 1969, after nearly a century of exploitation of petroleum and gas in the area, but is now lit by gas piped from the nearby city."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ateshgah_of_Baku

client
11-17-2019, 05:13 PM
The fire I think comes from primeval times. In the Indic/Aryan traditions for maintaining a continuous fire a fire-pit was used. Wood was plentiful, and ghee was used as the fuel agent.
Huta, hutabhu https://books.google.com/books?id=_3NWAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA1174

The Iranians in BMAC continued that as a tradition even after maintaining a fire became easier.

Some have continued that tradition to the present day.
"Based on Persian inscriptions, the temple was used as a Hindu, Sikh, and Zoroastrian place of worship. "Atash" (آتش) is the Persian word for fire.[3] The pentagonal complex, which has a courtyard surrounded by cells for monks and a tetrapillar-altar in the middle, was built during the 17th and 18th centuries. It was abandoned in the late 19th century, probably due to the dwindling of the Indian population in the area. The natural eternal flame went out in 1969, after nearly a century of exploitation of petroleum and gas in the area, but is now lit by gas piped from the nearby city."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ateshgah_of_Baku

But when you say Indic/Aryan(or Iranian) do you mean it from an AMT perspective or an OIT perspective

parasar
11-17-2019, 06:00 PM
But when you say Indic/Aryan(or Iranian) do you mean it from an AMT perspective or an OIT perspective

Both. The OIT (IMO) comes after AMT. Essentially I follow the theory that Max Muller proposed.

The Mahabharat has a very interesting mention of fire, where we get the logic as to why fire was considered a deity. It enabled meat "purification."
"'The sacred fire is fond of animal food,' this saying has come down to us. And at sacrifices animals are invariably killed by regenerate Brahmanas, and these animals being purged of sin, by incantation of hymns, go to heaven. If, O Brahmana, the sacred fire had not been so fond of animal food in ancient times, it could never have become the food of any one. And in this matter of animal food, this rule has been laid down by Munis:--Whoever partakes of animal food after having first offered it duly and respectfully to the gods and the manes, is not polluted by the act."