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jof2311
06-18-2016, 05:12 PM
Hello,
I am new in the forum but i learn lots of things about Y haplogroups and genetic,
I have just received a partial result of my Y 37 snp test from Ftdna,
they predicted me as E-m35 Y Haplogroup, I forget to say that i am from Tunisia North Africa.
I got matches with peoples from Arabia Saudia , wich one personne from this country wich are the closer to me at 25 matches.
I have matches with people from Tunisia , Lybia and Egypt, all of them are confirmed as E-m78, so i think io will be on this Haplogroup,
but wich subclade could it be , V-22, V-65, V-13, I thought that it could be V-65 as it, is the most currant subclade in North Africa but the matches with people from Arabia and egypte make me doubt..
My str alleles matches are exactly:

13 23 14 10 17-18 11 12 10 12 11 29 14 9-9 11 11 27 14 20 32 15-16-16-16 11 10 19-21 15 12 19 19 34-35 11 10.

Thank you very much for any informations on an possible subclade..
Regards.


JoF.

Bane
06-18-2016, 08:28 PM
13 23 14 10 17-18 11 12 10 12 11 29 14 9-9 11 11 27 14 20 32 15-16-16-16 11 10 19-21 15 12 19 19 34-35 11 10

Looks like your haplogroup is E-V22.
That is the prediction of this tool: Y-DNA Haplogroup Predictor - NEVGEN (http://www.nevgen.org)

jof2311
06-18-2016, 08:46 PM
Good evening Bane, and thank you for your answer ,.
I tried your Haplogroup predictor but the result was only E1b1b haplogroup,
how did you proceed to obtain E-V22 result?
Best regards.

JoF.

Bane
06-18-2016, 08:51 PM
Good evening Bane, and thank you for your answer ,.
I tried your Haplogroup predictor but the result was only E1b1b haplogroup,
how did you proceed to obtain E-V22 result?
Best regards.

JoF.

Open the settings section and choose "Longer haplotypes" option.

jof2311
06-18-2016, 09:08 PM
All right Bane, It seems that i belong to the E-V 22 subclade of E-m35 wich is quite rare in Tunisia.
An other Haplogroup predictor confirm me the E-v22 subclade for 54 °/°.
Any other informations are well come.
Thank you again.

JoF.

jof2311
06-18-2016, 10:32 PM
I proceed a prediction control with the Nevgen Haplogroup predictor with confirmed E-V65 str matches to make a control for accuracy and the results were percentages between E-v13 and E-v22 ?
Is it accurate?
In another way my prediction for E-V22 was with a percentage of 100°/° with this tool..
Thank's for answering.

JoF.

Bane
06-19-2016, 06:17 AM
I proceed a prediction control with the Nevgen Haplogroup predictor with confirmed E-V65 str matches to make a control for accuracy and the results were percentages between E-v13 and E-v22 ?
Is it accurate?
In another way my prediction for E-V22 was with a percentage of 100°/° with this tool..
Thank's for answering.

JoF.

I can't give a precise answer to that question. My understanding is that accuracy of a predictor significantly depends on the size of its database. It might be possible for example, that nevgen does not have enough E-V65 samples in the database which would decrease its reliability to predict this haplogroup.
However, I don't have information about that (I'm not the author of the nevgen predictor).

jof2311
06-19-2016, 07:50 AM
Yes Bane it's a possibily, i think i can trust it for me as it was a 100°/°haplogroup prediction.
Have a good day.

JoF.

Almagest
06-19-2016, 06:19 PM
What do your close matches look like? That can also give you clues to your subclade.

jof2311
06-19-2016, 07:54 PM
.Hi Almagest.
What do you mean with look like?
Because i have no pics of them, only the name wich are mostly arabs.
regards.

Almagest
06-19-2016, 08:55 PM
Sorry, that was bad wording. I meant what subclades has FTDNA assigned them under M35 (if any), and how close your STR values match.

Bane
06-21-2016, 06:33 AM
Circumstantially, I communicated the issue to the author of the Nevgen predictor. My understanding is that E-V65 was not supported by his predictor until yesterday. Driven by your issue he has now defined E-V65 haplogroup in the predictor, which also means he added a number of corresponding haplotypes to the database.

With all that, predictor result for your haplotype now very much leans towards E-V65 haplogroup.

jof2311
06-21-2016, 06:38 PM
Exact, i made aprediction now and it appears Ev65 for 100°, it's probably because the 2 subclades are very closed as 2 deep clades of E-M78.
Thank you very much Bane. and thank's at the administrator of >Negven predictor too.

joF

jof2311
06-26-2016, 09:17 PM
E-v65 is native from North Africa , and quite currant inTunisia.

kingjohn
06-27-2016, 08:59 AM
dear jof2311,
e-v65 could be carthgenian
and have a look in the table in the middle of the page
http://dienekes.blogspot.co.il/2012/03/pre-roman-genetic-structure-has.html
e-v65 is not limited to southern spain it was found in nice number in araba basque country
that have to be ancient migration .. :)
regards
adam

p.s and here is yfull e-v68 https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V68/
i dont know what is the age of e-v65 it is not written
but e-v12 which is related to him is old.

jof2311
06-27-2016, 12:31 PM
Dear Adam,
Thank's for your interest, yes E-v65 could be Carthaginian as it is found particulary in the ancients colonies of Carthage out of actual Tunisia, like Sicily, Sardinia ,Andalusia and as you noticed in some others regions in north of Spain.
Especially Sardinia wich was a special Carthagian colony, and wich don't have E-m81 in it's Y samples, make E-v65 a possible Carthaginian signal more than an islamic signal.
It' very facinating to relie genetic and Antiquity, even if we are not completly sure.

JoF.

E_M81_I3A
06-27-2016, 05:32 PM
Dear Adam,
Thank's for your interest, yes E-v65 could be Carthaginian as it is found particulary in the ancients colonies of Carthage out of actual Tunisia, like Sicily, Sardinia ,Andalusia and as you noticed in some others regions in north of Spain.
Especially Sardinia wich was a special Carthagian colony, and wich don't have E-m81 in it's Y samples, make E-v65 a possible Carthaginian signal more than an islamic signal.
It' very facinating to relie genetic and Antiquity, even if we are not completly sure.

JoF.


Overall, E-V65 is a rather rare lineage mainly found in NorthWest Africa where, like E-M81, it is often considered as a typical "Maghrebi marker" by authors (Bekada et al. 2013, Capelli et al. 2009 etc).

But even in NorthWest Africa, except in some isolated groups where for example Cruciani et al. 2007 found it at a high frequency of 32.7% in a sample of Moroccan Arabs (18/55) and at 10.1% in a sample of Moyen Atlas Berbers (7/69), its frequency is generally less than 5% averaging 3-4%.

Fadhlaoui-Zid et al 2015 (http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v60/n1/full/jhg201499a.html) for example found it at 4.1% in a sample of 220 Tunisians from Sousse:

A-M91 0.5%
DE*-YAP 0.9%
E1b1b1a1*-M78 0.9%
E1b1b1a1b-V13 0.5%
E1b1b1a1c-V22 0.5%
E1b1b1a1d-V65 4.1%
E1b1b1b1a2*-M183 44.5%
E1b1b1b2a-M123 1.8%
E1b1b1-M35 1.4%
E1b1b-M215 0.9%
E-M96 2.3%
G-M201 0.5%
J1b2*-P58 0.5%
J1b2b*-L147 1.8%
J1b2b1*-L222.2 23.6%
J2a1h2a-DYS445=6 0.5%
J2a1h-L24 5.5%
J2a1-Page55 0.9%
J2a-M410 1.4%
L-M20 0.5%
R1a1a-M198 0.5%
R1b1c-V88 0.9%
R-M207 4.1%
T-M184 1.4%

Bekada et al 2013 (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056775) reported E-V65 as below in rather large samples with highest frequencies in NorthWest Africa but always < 5% :

Libya 4.82% (4/83)
Morocco 3.68% (28/760)
Tunisia 3.16% (19/601)
Egypte 2.43% (9/370)
Algeria 1.92% (3/156)
Sahara/Mauritania 0% (0/189)

Italy/Sicily/Sardinia 0.68% (23/3401)
Balkan 0.13% (4/3115)
Iberian Penisula 0.10 % (2/1971)

and 0% in samples below :

Levant (0/2741) ---> So E-V65 is definitely not of Carthaginian origin... as not found in modern Lebanon
Caucasus (0/3581)
Turkey (0/ 523)
Iran (0/566)
Arabian peninsula (0/618)

jof2311
06-27-2016, 07:03 PM
Carthage is in North Africa (Maghreb actual Tunisia) not in Lebanon, and the Carthage population(people who lived in Carthage territory) is known as the Lybico-Phoenician civilisation, that means people mixed between Phoenicians and Lybics people, so E-v65 is realy a good signal of the Carthaginian civilisation as the studies show in Sicily, Sardinia and Andalusia and costal Tunisia..
(severals confirmed E-v65 have been tested in Palestine and Jordan for exemple and Modern Lebanon is not very closed to the antic phoenicians people).
E-v65 as a subclade of E-M78 is originated in North east africa ,and spread from Egypt to North Africa .
Regards.

joF.

E_M81_I3A
06-27-2016, 07:33 PM
Carthage was founded by Phoenicians and E-V65 has not been found in Lebanon, Palestine and Jordan as we can see in the large sample from Bekada et al 2013 : Levant (2741 individuals from Jordan, Syria, Palestine, Lebanon) : 0/2741 = 0%.

E-V65 is just another "Maghrebi marker" like E-M81... As mentionned above, highest frequencies were found in western Maghreb in Morocco (32.7% in a sample of Moroccan Arabs (18/55) and 10.1% in a sample of Moyen Atlas Berbers (7/69)).

jof2311
06-27-2016, 08:04 PM
There is no "Maghrebi marker" as you said, perhaps indead E-m81 as it is konwn as the "Berber Marker", E-M78 lineage of E-V65 hasn't the same origine , it's originate From North east Africa and E-M81 from North west Africa directly from the Horn of Africa , the E-V65 from Morocco are attribued to the Beni Hillal arab invasions.
Carthage has been founded by Phooenicians with the Lybics people and it's population and army was mixed between Pheonicians and Lybics people , population known as the punic civilisation.
PS: there are E-v65 confirmed in palestine , jordan and Saudi Arabia you can see them in the E-m35 project of Ftdna, even if they have nothing to do with Tunisia and Carthage.

E_M81_I3A
06-27-2016, 08:29 PM
E-V65 from Morocco cannot be attribued to arab invasions as E-V65 is found at 0% in Arabian peninsula (0/618) and is extremely rare outside of Maghreb.

In fact, E-V65 is just found, at much lower frequencies, in places where E-M81 is found as both are "Maghrebi" or "NorthWest African" markers as different authors say.

You won't be able to find any region with some E-V65 and no E-M81, which confirms this.

jof2311
06-27-2016, 08:37 PM
You are E-m81 be proud of that as it is a subclade of the great E-m35 lineage.
Beni Hillal tribes stayed one hundred years between Egypt an Lybia before they invaded Maghreb..
You have lots of things to learn in History and genetics..

jof2311
06-27-2016, 08:47 PM
EVerywehre you'll find E-m81 you will find J-M267, does that means that J-M267 is "Magrhebi"too?

E_M81_I3A
06-27-2016, 08:56 PM
Not J-M267 itself as too old, but for sure some more recent subclades of J-M267 arose in NorthWest Africa and are indeed "Maghrebi" markers as described by some authors.

jof2311
06-27-2016, 09:07 PM
Not J-M267 itself as too old, but for sure some more recent subclades of J-M267 arose in NorthWest Africa and are indeed "Maghrebi" markers as described by many authors.

Certainly as recents Subclades of E-M81 became local in Andalusia for exemple, it's not the subject.

E_M81_I3A
06-27-2016, 09:24 PM
Sample quote from Bekada et al 2013 :

"mean frequency values for the native North African male clusters E-M81 and E-V65 in the Maghreb (Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya), are 40.03±11.66 and 3.40±0.60 respectively. The mean values for the same markers in western-central Mediterranean Europe (Iberian Peninsula, France and Corsica, Italy, Sardinia and Sicily) are 1.86±1.28 and 0.26±0.8 respectively. Taken together, these values would suggest around 5% male Maghreb input in Mediterranean Europe"

Odyss
06-27-2016, 09:31 PM
Rz1706 has it all right indeed.

Odyss
06-27-2016, 09:33 PM
You are E-m81 be proud of that as it is a subclade of the great E-m35 lineage.
Beni Hillal tribes stayed one hundred years between Egypt an Lybia before they invaded Maghreb..
You have lots of things to learn in History and genetics..

It's rather you, not him.

You was told all your life you were an Arab. It's time to reconciliate with some of your Berber roots.

jof2311
06-27-2016, 09:39 PM
You citation Of Bekada has nothing to do with the subject of Carthage and don't proove any thing, you have to read another time the explanation about Carthage and the Punic civilasition (Wich is a NORTH AFRICAN civilisation)
that i gave to you before and there are plenty of books who speaks about that,that you should read
So don't occupate my discussion if you don't have any constructed clever arguments .

jof2311
06-27-2016, 09:48 PM
It's rather you, not him.

You was told all your life you were an Arab. It's time to reconciliate with some of your Berber roots.
Odyss I never says, or means that ,
The discussion is about Carthage wich has nothing to do with Arabs as it was centuries before the Arabs invasion and
E-v65 is not a berber Marker, so..?
You make amalgams ,please be logic and honest with your interventions.

Odyss
06-27-2016, 09:54 PM
You were the one mentionning the Aith Hilal.

Ev65 looks like a Berber/NW African specific branch of EM78. Much of the EM78 west of Egypt is EV65.

jof2311
06-27-2016, 10:00 PM
Genetique is not a question of "looks like", but i am agree it's a north african branch of E-M78, I am telling since the beginning that The population of Carthage was a mixed population of Phenicians and autochtons North Africans lineage known as the Libycs people, but none of you seems to understand that , as it's is a an historic reality of Carthage and simply a part of Tunisia History.

Odyss
06-27-2016, 10:07 PM
Yeah but EV65 is not of Phoenician origin. Em78 was found in pre-hispanic Canary Islands and it was fairly likely Ev65 just like the EM78 found in current Morocco.

jof2311
06-27-2016, 10:14 PM
Another time I never says that E-v65 was Phoenician, but Carthaginian, E-M78 is an Egypt clade wich spread in severals directions, We found some J1 Clades too in the Guanches populations of the canary islands , J1 is known as an Arabic marker from near east (since the neolithic?) , so the origins can be very distants..

E_M81_I3A
06-28-2016, 05:47 AM
Another time I never says that E-v65 was Phoenician, but Carthaginian, E-M78 is an Egypt clade wich spread in severals directions, We found some J1 Clades too in the Guanches populations of the canary islands , J1 is known as an Arabic marker from near east (since the neolithic?) , so the origins can be very distants..

It is correct to say that Carthaginians were a mix of Phoenicians and native NorthWest Africans (Hannibal himself was probably as much native NorthWest African than Massinissa) but it is wrong to say that E-V65 is Carthaginian.

E-V65 is just, like E-M81, native to NorthWest Africa. And both haplogroups, as mentionned by authors above, were introduced by native NorthWest African males in western-central Mediterranean Europe during Carthaginian, Roman and Islamic empires that ruled NorthWest Africa.

kingjohn
06-28-2016, 07:42 AM
but how people explain the ocurence of e-v65
in spanish basque from araba ??
i dont think it is muslem invasion there must be older
regards
adam

jof2311
06-28-2016, 07:56 AM
E-V65 is not just like E-M81 simply because the History 2 lineages are completly different as all the specialists confirm. First E-V65 is a subclade ,E-M81 is directly spread from E-M35.
Another time E-v65 is a subclade of E-M78 wich originate From from Egypt and more frequent In North EAST Africa and E-M81 is originate from North WEST Africa and is more frequent on the berber population of Algeria (Mozabites 80% for exemple), Morocco Tunisia , Lybia .E-V65 is more frequent among the cosmopolitan arabs of these countries and in particulary on the Coastal towns of Tunisia, and it is present particulary in the ancient colonies of Carthage at the same value of E-M81,even more in Sardinia for exemple,
despite his relative proportional rarity , so it Can be Carthaginian(not IS Carthaginian)
You can not assimilate these 2 lineages even if they are present in the same region wich is true.
Have you ever heard about the Libyphenician infantery of Carthage?
Have you read Polybe or Tite live?

jof2311
06-28-2016, 08:05 AM
Yes Adam you are right as E-M81 is abscent of these Basque population well known as great navigators.

Regards.

kingjohn
06-28-2016, 08:08 AM
i have to correct you on this one
E-m81 is the most common E subclade in sardinia
more than e-v13 or m123/m34
read this E-M81 was also found in 2013 at 5.8% in a large sample of 1 204 Sardinians.[23] from wikpedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-Z827
but based on this research on sardinain http://science.sciencemag.org/content/341/6145/565.abstract
the only explanation is carthegenian troops
some if not most of carthegenians were native north africans the elite were probably lebanese from sidon, zor , lebanon.
regards
adam

jof2311
06-28-2016, 08:30 AM
Yes Adam indead, that i know is that E-V65 is about fourth of E lineage in Sardinia in some studies, despite his relative rarity we can think of a Carthagenian signal.
Regards.

jof2311
06-28-2016, 09:15 AM
The thing wich is not very known about the punic ccivilisation in Carthage and others punic cities like Utique or Hadrumète, is that they make an osmose betwween the oriental culture of the phenician and the Lybics native people culture, it's why the punic civilisation suceed so well, and in the cities people were mixed between phenicians , lybics for générations , and with others ethnies like greeks, etrusques, egyptians , beacuse at his glory Carthage attire lots of communities.
So in these costal cities of the Carthage territorry the families were combined between Lybics and phenicians since the begenning, not only phoenician substrat.the resultt would be different if not.

kingjohn
06-28-2016, 10:39 AM
maybe septimus severus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimius_Severus
was E-v65 ;)
regards
adam

jof2311
06-28-2016, 11:57 AM
Oh Yes Adam as he had Lybico-punic origins from Leptis Magna( Tripolitan region).
I din't know that ,Very interesting.;Thank's
Best regards.