PDA

View Full Version : R1b Missing from Middle Eastern Farmers (Lazaridis 2016)



R.Rocca
06-19-2016, 02:01 PM
The recent Lazaridis paper has given us a wealth of data and has filled some of the large gaps we had about the early farming populations of the Middle East and Anatolia. While on the surface the paper seems 'boring' for those that have an interest in R1b, it is the very lack of any R1b in their Neolithic samples that is quite interesting. It was Balaresque 2010 that posited a "Predominantly Neolithic Origin for European Paternal Lineages". Obviously this paper points to Balaresque's position being wrong. Given that R1b does not show up south of the steppe until Kura-Araxes (and after), this paper likely kills the Neolithic Anatolian PIE Urheimat hypotheses as well. That has been directionally wrong for some time, but I don't think there was enough aDNA data to refute it.

While the absence of R1b in Middle Eastern Neolithics was of little surprise to most here, the absence of R1b-V88 is. We know of the R1b-V88 equivalent sample from the Early Neolithic El Tocs Spain sample (5295-5066 BC) and most (including myself) assumed it must've spread during the Early Neolithic. Perhaps R1b-V88 took a path similar to the Epigravettian R1b1 from Villabruna and was not a Neolithic marker at all?... but that would not explain its presence in Africa very well. I guess we will need a lot more aDNA to sort the V88 story out.

That R1b1-M415 (xM269) is found in Kura-Araxes is fascinating. The R1b male was buried in a single grave pit, which is what we would come to expect from a PIE culture burial. The marked increase in steppe like ancestry in Bronze Age Armenia compared to the Chalcolithic is also noteworthy. Just like prior papers pointed to North>South R1b movements on the steppe, this one points to a continuing a North>South movement for R1b lineages in the Caucasus.

Heber
06-19-2016, 02:22 PM
That R1b1-M415 (xM269) is found in Kura-Araxes is fascinating. The R1b male was buried in a single grave pit, which is what we would come to expect from a PIE culture burial. The marked increase in steppe like ancestry in Bronze Age Armenia compared to the Chalcolithic is also noteworthy. Just like prior papers pointed to North>South R1b movements on the steppe, this one points to a continuing a North>South movement for R1b lineages in the Caucasus.

Why North > South and not South > North if kurgan from Maikop and Araxes predate those of the Steppes.

Origins, Homelands and Migrations: Situating the Kura-Araxes Early Transcaucasian ‘Culture’ within the History of Bronze Age Eurasia

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/07/...n-culture.html

9864

From this table the chronology would appear to be

Shulaveri Shomu > Sioni > Maikop (Uruk) > Kura Araxes > Steppes Yamnaya

"The new high dating of the Maikop culture essentially signifies that there is no chronological hiatus separating the collapse of the Chalcolithic Balkan centre of metallurgical production and the appearance of Maikop and the sudden explosion of Caucasian metallurgical production and use of arsenical copper/bronzes. More than forty calibrated radiocarbon dates on Maikop and related materials now support this high chronology; and the revised dating for the Maikop culture means that the earliest kurgans occur in the northwestern and southern Caucasus and precede by several centuries those of the Pit-Grave (Yamnaya) cultures of the western Eurasian steppes (cf. Chernykh and Orlovskaya 2004a and b). The calibrated radiocarbon dates suggest that the Maikop ‘culture’ seems to have had a formative influence on steppe kurgan burial rituals and what now appears to be the later development of the Pit-Grave (Yamnaya) culture on the Eurasian steppes (Chernykh and Orlovskaya 2004a: 97)."

Cunliffe describes the Uruk > Maikop > Steppes transition in detail in Steppes, Desert and Ocean

https://books.google.nl/books?id=cEp...maikop&f=false

http://pin.it/0IumSqo

http://pin.it/YuOBXv4

Gravetto-Danubian
06-19-2016, 02:23 PM
The recent Lazaridis paper has given us a wealth of data and has filled some of the large gaps we had about the early farming populations of the Middle East and Anatolia. While on the surface the paper seems 'boring' for those that have an interest in R1b, it is the very lack of any R1b in their Neolithic samples that is quite interesting. It was Balaresque 2010 that posited a "Predominantly Neolithic Origin for European Paternal Lineages". Obviously this paper points to Balaresque's position being wrong. Given that R1b does not show up south of the steppe until Kura-Araxes (and after), this paper likely kills the Neolithic Anatolian PIE Urheimat hypotheses as well. That has been directionally wrong for some time, but I don't think there was enough aDNA data to refute it.

While the absence of R1b in Middle Eastern Neolithics was of little surprise to most here, the absence of R1b-V88 is. We know of the R1b-V88 equivalent sample from the Early Neolithic El Tocs Spain sample (5295-5066 BC) and most (including myself) assumed it must've spread during the Early Neolithic. Perhaps R1b-V88 took a path similar to the Epigravettian R1b1 from Villabruna and was not a Neolithic marker at all?... but that would not explain its presence in Africa very well. I guess we will need a lot more aDNA to sort the V88 story out.

That R1b1-M415 (xM269) is found in Kura-Araxes is fascinating. The R1b male was buried in a single grave pit, which is what we would come to expect from a PIE culture burial. The marked increase in steppe like ancestry in Bronze Age Armenia compared to the Chalcolithic is also noteworthy. Just like prior papers pointed to North>South R1b movements on the steppe, this one points to a continuing a North>South movement for R1b lineages in the Caucasus.

Yes its certainly the proverbial nail.

Just a couple of minor points, though, if Ive understood.

* "The marked increase in steppe like ancestry in Bronze Age Armenia compared to the Chalcolithic is also noteworthy. Just like prior papers pointed to North>South R1b movements on the steppe, this one points to a continuing a North>South movement for R1b lineages in the Caucasus'

It seems there was a decrease in EHG in Armenia from 18% in Chalcolithic to 12% (0.6 x 0.2) in EBA (albeit a 6% reduction is nothing to make much of a dance about). Of course, Im not saying the R1b came from south, or anything.

* "The R1b male was buried in a single grave pit, which is what we would come to expect from a PIE culture burial"

Some very early Kurgans have been found in Azerbaijan and Georgia. early 4th Mill (Leylatepe Tradition, coincident with the Majkop culture north Caucasus, & Repin in the steppe)

RCO
06-19-2016, 07:15 PM
I think the key point is no more the Anatolian but a Southern Caspian PIE urheimat. Yes, but only after the CHG-Caspian-Steppe admixture had been done the IE expansion began. Actually the CHG is a Northern Middle Eastern component found also and probably mainly around Northern Iran. That's the possible glue of Indo-European populations. You had more pioneer and sophisticated forms of agriculture, pastoralism, urban development, warfare and mettalurgy involved with that core component. Without the CHG-Iranian-complex the different Steppe R1b and R1a specific branches and peoples would not had the decisive factors to expand, factors brought via the genetic and technological CHG-Iranian admixtures and imports.

Tomenable
06-19-2016, 07:29 PM
Sample I1945 from Ganj Dareh in Iran is P1 (xR1b1a2).

It seems that R1b1a2 is the new name for R1b1c V88 ???

So this sample might potentially be some other form of R1b.

MfA
06-19-2016, 07:31 PM
Sample I1945 from Ganj Dareh in Iran is P1 (xR1b1a2).

It seems that R1b1a2 is the new name for R1b1c V88 ???

So this sample might potentially be some other form of R1b.

They used ISOGG 2014 tree, it's M269-


To determine the Y-chromosome haplogroup of male individuals, we used the nomenclature
of the International Society of Genetic Genealogy (http://www.isogg.org) v. 9.129 (accessed
Dec. 08, 2014).

Tomenable
06-19-2016, 07:37 PM
But this sample is 10,000 - 9,700 years old, so older than TMRCA of M269 according to YFull.

So in case if it is positive for P297, it might be actually ancestral to M269, or closely related.

It can also be some subclade of R1a, or some form of R2. Or actual P1. Nobody knows so far.

jesus
06-19-2016, 08:10 PM
That R1b1-M415 (xM269) is found in Kura-Araxes is fascinating. The R1b male was buried in a single grave pit, which is what we would come to expect from a PIE culture burial. The marked increase in steppe like ancestry in Bronze Age Armenia compared to the Chalcolithic is also noteworthy. Just like prior papers pointed to North>South R1b movements on the steppe, this one points to a continuing a North>South movement for R1b lineages in the Caucasus.

The WHG + EHG in higher in Armenia ChL vs Armenia EBA. The Kura-Araxes sample is in Armenia EBA.

http://abload.de/img/asdbzl0z.png

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7489-Lazaridis-et-al-The-genetic-structure-of-the-world-s-first-farmers-(pre-print)&p=164144&viewfull=1#post164144

J Man
06-19-2016, 08:11 PM
The WHG + EHG in higher in Armenia ChL vs Armenia EBA. The Kura-Araxes sample is in Armenia EBA.

http://abload.de/img/asdbzl0z.png

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7489-Lazaridis-et-al-The-genetic-structure-of-the-world-s-first-farmers-(pre-print)&p=164144&viewfull=1#post164144

Is your personal message box full?

R.Rocca
06-20-2016, 01:00 AM
I think the key point is no more the Anatolian but a Southern Caspian PIE urheimat. Yes, but only after the CHG-Caspian-Steppe admixture had been done the IE expansion began. Actually the CHG is a Northern Middle Eastern component found also and probably mainly around Northern Iran. That's the possible glue of Indo-European populations. You had more pioneer and sophisticated forms of agriculture, pastoralism, urban development, warfare and mettalurgy involved with that core component. Without the CHG-Iranian-complex the different Steppe R1b and R1a specific branches and peoples would not had the decisive factors to expand, factors brought via the genetic and technological CHG-Iranian admixtures and imports.

I can see one arguing Steppe or even Maykop, but PIE from Iran has a very glaring weakness... the need for proximity to Uralic languages. Urbanism goes counter to what the PIE pastoralist lifestyle.

Generalissimo
06-20-2016, 01:37 AM
Steppe_EMBA doesn't have admixture from Iran_N or Iran_ChL. This looks like an artifact of the modeling, because the uniparental markers just don't match.


Afanasievo RISE511 J2a2a
Afanasievo RISE510 J2a2a
Afanasievo RISE509 T2c1a2
Afanasievo RISE507 U5a1a1
Afanasievo RISE508 U5a1a1

Poltavka I0374 H13a1a
Poltavka I0126 H6a2
Poltavka I0440 I3a
Poltavka I0371 U2d2
Poltavka_outlier I0432 U5a1c

Yamnaya_Kalmykia RISE546 U5a1d2b
Yamnaya_Kalmykia RISE548 U4
Yamnaya_Kalmykia RISE547 T2a1a
Yamnaya_Kalmykia RISE552 T2a1a
Yamnaya_Kalmykia RISE240 U5a1d1
Yamnaya_Kalmykia RISE550 U5a1i
Yamnaya_Samara I0370 H13a1a1
Yamnaya_Samara I0441 H2b
Yamnaya_Samara I0444 H6a1b
Yamnaya_Samara I0429 T2c1a2
Yamnaya_Samara I0231 U4a1a or U4a1d
Yamnaya_Samara I0438 U5a1a1
Yamnaya_Samara I0439 U5a1a1
Yamnaya_Samara I0443 W3a1a
Yamnaya_Samara I0357 W6c

Iran_Chalcolithic I1661 H29
Iran_Chalcolithic I1662 K1a12a
Iran_Chalcolithic I1665 U7a
Iran_Chalcolithic I1670 U3a'c
Iran_Chalcolithic I1674 I1c

Iran_Late_Neolithic I1671 K1a12a

Ganj_Dareh_Iran_Neolithic I1290 X2
Ganj_Dareh_Iran_Neolithic I1945 J1c10

What's the bet that when I run TreeMix on this data, Yamnaya will never see any edges from Iran_ChL or Iran_N?

Silesian
06-20-2016, 01:53 AM
The WHG + EHG in higher in Armenia ChL vs Armenia EBA. The Kura-Araxes sample is in Armenia EBA. ..
You know the Armenian-Kura-Araxes sample is related by way of R1b-to the May 2 tweet about 14k R1b-cluster.
https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis

Gravetto-Danubian
06-20-2016, 02:06 AM
You know the Armenian-Kura-Araxes sample is related by way of R1b-to the May 2 tweet about 14k R1b-cluster.
https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis

There is no explicit link mentioned.
I;ve not seen formal tests showing the K-A is part of the Villabruna cluster (which after all, is an UP entity)

parasar
06-22-2016, 05:18 PM
You know the Armenian-Kura-Araxes sample is related by way of R1b-to the May 2 tweet about 14k R1b-cluster.
https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis

Is this the tweet being referred to?
Lazaridis - "It seems that there was a hunter-gatherer "reset" ~14,000 years ago that left only the "Villabruna cluster" as the inheritors of Europe"

Kale
06-22-2016, 06:41 PM
Although in no way promoting such will have led to anything except a few stragglers, I will say if we get enough adna from Iran we will find R1b. If there is ANE in ancient Iran, I'm sure some form of Q and R will have followed.

Leroy Jenkins
06-22-2016, 06:42 PM
Although in no way promoting such will have led to anything except a few stragglers, I will say if we get enough adna from Iran we will find R1b. If there is ANE in ancient Iran, I'm sure some form of Q and R will have followed.

Genetiker just confirmed that R2 was present in Neolithic Iran.

R.Rocca
06-26-2016, 01:51 AM
Why North > South and not South > North if kurgan from Maikop and Araxes predate those of the Steppes.

Origins, Homelands and Migrations: Situating the Kura-Araxes Early Transcaucasian ‘Culture’ within the History of Bronze Age Eurasia

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/07/...n-culture.html

9864

From this table the chronology would appear to be

Shulaveri Shomu > Sioni > Maikop (Uruk) > Kura Araxes > Steppes Yamnaya

"The new high dating of the Maikop culture essentially signifies that there is no chronological hiatus separating the collapse of the Chalcolithic Balkan centre of metallurgical production and the appearance of Maikop and the sudden explosion of Caucasian metallurgical production and use of arsenical copper/bronzes. More than forty calibrated radiocarbon dates on Maikop and related materials now support this high chronology; and the revised dating for the Maikop culture means that the earliest kurgans occur in the northwestern and southern Caucasus and precede by several centuries those of the Pit-Grave (Yamnaya) cultures of the western Eurasian steppes (cf. Chernykh and Orlovskaya 2004a and b). The calibrated radiocarbon dates suggest that the Maikop ‘culture’ seems to have had a formative influence on steppe kurgan burial rituals and what now appears to be the later development of the Pit-Grave (Yamnaya) culture on the Eurasian steppes (Chernykh and Orlovskaya 2004a: 97)."



The Repin Phase of the Pit-Grave Culture has been radiocarbon dated to 4000–3300 BC... https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/radiocarbon/article/view/16087/pdf

The lack of any kind of R1b, let alone L23, in the earlier Middle Easter farmers reflects the North>South movement quite glaringly IMO. I don't see how it can be interpreted in any other way.

Romilius
06-26-2016, 07:52 AM
Are we sure that that R1b from Kura-Araxes culture was buried in a kurgan?

Gravetto-Danubian
06-26-2016, 08:24 AM
Are we sure that that R1b from Kura-Araxes culture was buried in a kurgan?

It wouldn't have been (not that I've checked)
Kurgans aren't a feature of KA culture (until the terminal- transformative phase) but they do appear south of the Caucasus prior to the KA, as well is in the odd place in Anatolia
But Kurgans are just one element of material repertoires.
KA didn't come from Yamanaya anymore than Yamnaya came from it. In fact they're more or less contemporaries

Heber
06-26-2016, 09:58 AM
KA1/12 (I1635): Early Bronze Age III, Burial UF1 is the R1b1-M415(xM269) sample.

Kalavan-1 is an open-air site 1,640 meters above sea level on the southwest slopes of the Aregunyats Range north of Lake Sevan, Northeast Armenia. Archaeological and geological investigations were conducted here between 2005 and 2009 as part of a collaborative Armenian and French project. The excavation revealed two main levels of occupation dated to the Terminal Palaeolithic, overlain by an Early Bronze Age Kura-Araxes burial ground. The total excavated area approaches 70 meters squared. Five burial pits were uncovered, of which four, referred to as UF1, UF2, UF8 and UF9, contained single primary burials, while the fifth (UF5) is a multiple burial that held the remains of at least three individuals. Six consistent radiocarbon dates on human skeletal material from UF5, UF8 and UF9 span 2900-2400 BCE, during the later part of the Kura-Araxes cultural horizon, and this is the range we use for the undated sample. Stone heaps rising to approximately 0.7m in height marked the graves of the adults. These structures were oval-shaped with a major axis of 1 meter, reaching 1.7 meters above the multiple burial. The position of the body in the pits varied: sitting, tightly flexed, and flexed. Post-sepulchral recovery of skulls and long bones occurred. The adult burials were furnished with the same assemblage of black burnished pottery that has the strongest association with the Kura basin ceramics and UF9 also contained bronze ornaments: a ring and a bracelet found near the skull. The child burial was in flexed position on its right side and was adorned with a neck ornament composed of dog molars and two stone beads, one of which was made of carnelian36,37. The two human remains (petrous bones) used in ancient DNA analyses came from the Early Bronze Age III period burials UF1 and UF9:
• KA1/14 (I1633): 2619-2410 BCE (Poz-22234, 399035 bp). Early Bronze Age III, Burial UF9. • KA1/12 (I1635): Early Bronze Age III, Burial UF1.

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2016/06/16/059311.DC1/059311-1.pdf

R.Rocca
06-26-2016, 11:40 AM
With such a wide distribution, we are obviously not going to have all samples where R1b is found be "Kurgan". In this case, the male was buried in a pit. And Kura-Araxes does not need to derive from Yamnaya, but it could be that R1b men mixed early on with populations of the Caucasus to form Kura-Araxes. They may have maintained strong enough contacts back to the steppe that they may be responsible for the Proto-Kartvelian influences in Proto-Indo-European. We can even talk about the controversial Semitic language influences given haplogroup J in ancient DNA. If the split was early enough, we can even discuss the Anatolian branches of IE.

Gravetto-Danubian
06-26-2016, 11:54 AM
Indeed R1b has a wider and much older distribution than Yamnaya. Yamnaya is probably the localised phase which links specifically with L23 (assuming we'll find L51 in western Yamnaya).

The point is, we now no longer need to defend the tenet that R1b is linked to ANE/ EHG/ north Eurasian people. We now know that as early as the Epipalaeolithic ANE groups moved down south, as far as Iran, so finding some in KA is hardly surprising. Even if a non-Yamnaya context, it changes little of the overall picture

R.Rocca
06-26-2016, 12:30 PM
Indeed R1b has a wider and much older distribution than Yamnaya. Yamnaya is probably the localised phase which links specifically with L23 (assuming we'll find L51 in western Yamnaya).

The point is, we now no longer need to defend the tenet that R1b is linked to ANE/ EHG/ north Eurasian people. We now know that as early as the Epipalaeolithic ANE groups moved down south, as far as Iran, so finding some in KA is hardly surprising. Even if a non-Yamnaya context, it changes little of the overall picture

In the case of Iran, we may have an earlier ANE/EHG expansion in the form of R2 (samples I1945 and I1949). In any case, the expansion of ANE/EHG well past its original homeland can certainly be attributed heavily to R1b, R1a, R2 and lest we forget...haplogroup Q.

Silesian
06-26-2016, 01:13 PM
There is no explicit link mentioned.
I;ve not seen formal tests showing the K-A is part of the Villabruna cluster (which after all, is an UP entity)
Villabruna predates Rise 413.
You are going to have to come up with a parsimonious explanation as to why no formal tests have shown any link between R1b-L584-4700YBP+/- and Yamnaya{c. 3500 BC – 2000} BC[L584-] cluster. 60-70% of R1b sampled among modern day Armenians[L584+], depending on who's figures are used.
However we do know that-Armenia Rise 397 is related to Rise 548[Z2106/6200YBP]. Also Rise 548[Z2103+]-547[Z2106+]-546[M269+] are from Kalmykia.
http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/aDNA_02_11_30_2015.png

R.Rocca
06-26-2016, 02:46 PM
Villabruna predates Rise 413.
You are going to have to come up with a parsimonious explanation as to why no formal tests have shown any link between R1b-L584-4700YBP+/- and Yamnaya{c. 3500 BC – 2000} BC[L584-] cluster. 60-70% of R1b sampled among modern day Armenians[L584+], depending on who's figures are used.
However we do know that-Armenia Rise 397 is related to Rise 548[Z2106/6200YBP]. Also Rise 548[Z2103+]-547[Z2106+]-546[M269+] are from Kalmykia.

If something like Repin expanded into the south/south-east, and Yamnaya is a brother culture to something like Kura-Araxes, then why couldn't Eastern Yamnaya be Z2103+Z2106+ and Z2103+L584+ be in Kura-Araxes or something derived from Kura-Araxes? Not that L584 has been found in Kura-Araxes "yet", but I don't see it is impossible to speculate that it will be.

Silesian
06-26-2016, 06:29 PM
If something like Repin expanded into the south/south-east, and Yamnaya is a brother culture to something like Kura-Araxes, then why couldn't Eastern Yamnaya be Z2103+Z2106+ and Z2103+L584+ be in Kura-Araxes or something derived from Kura-Araxes? Not that L584 has been found in Kura-Araxes "yet", but I don't see it is impossible to speculate that it will be.
What is the difference between Repin pottery KA pottery and the types mentioned in page 8-
Kalinovska pottery type, Keltiminar pottery type ? Maybe JeanM knows.
https://www.webdepot.umontreal.ca/Usagers/tuitekj/MonDepotPublic/cours/6600-lectures/Anthony-Kurgan-Horse.pdf
page 9- perhaps the earliest Yamnaya and by extension the ancestors of L584 are from and area that might have been rich in R1a like potential untested Sredni Stog region-Sulimurski similar burial style? It might explain how they were all in contact with each other.

......Some linguists tentatively conclude that Armenian, Greek (Phrygian), Albanian and Indo-Iranian were dialectally close to each other;[24][25][26][27] within this hypothetical dialect group, Proto-Armenian was situated between Proto-Greek (centum subgroup) and Proto-Indo-Iranian (satem subgroup).[28]
http://www.suduva.com/virdainas/r1a-split.jpg

Gravetto-Danubian
06-26-2016, 09:17 PM
Villabruna predates Rise 413.
You are going to have to come up with a parsimonious explanation as to why no formal tests have shown any link between R1b-L584-4700YBP+/- and Yamnaya{c. 3500 BC – 2000} BC[L584-] cluster. 60-70% of R1b sampled among modern day Armenians[L584+], depending on who's figures are used.
However we do know that-Armenia Rise 397 is related to Rise 548[Z2106/6200YBP]. Also Rise 548[Z2103+]-547[Z2106+]-546[M269+] are from Kalmykia.
http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/aDNA_02_11_30_2015.png

I don't have to come up with anything, & in fact I'm not sure what you're even asking/ attempting to prove/ debate.

I was merely highlighting that you tried to suggest that R1b xM269 Bronze Age Armenian Sample is part of the Villabruna cluster.
It is not and cannot be as it is a Bronze Age specimen from south of the caucuses which has nothing to do with Proto WHG. If you want to try and prove that it is, then you have to provide data and proofs. But you will not because you're trying to compare apples with cats. But this is not to say that weren't linked back at 15 KYA.
You're probably confusing genome -wide clusters with the more simple concept of Y haplogroup "family trees".

Gravetto-Danubian
06-26-2016, 09:28 PM
Nah there's nothing over-arching about Repin. Its relevance is only local (probably eastern Yamnaya). IMO the different R1 lineages we later see in Europe came from different subgroups, it wasn't a "big bang" from Repin or anything equally far fetched. This will become apparent as we Sample more of the step and adjacent regions of Eastern Europe & northern caucuses.

Silesian
06-26-2016, 10:29 PM
I don't have to come up with anything,.....
No, you most certainly don't.

& in fact I'm not sure what you're even asking/ attempting to prove/ debate.
I'm not attempting to prove or debate with you, only point out R1b distribution. As the OP and myself share a common interest in that we are related by way of R1b. Albeit, he being in a very successful evolutionary branch L51+ [with possible ancient Latin connection?]
branch and myself being in a much smaller CTS-9219 branch shared by a small percentage of modern day Slav's and Ossetians, among others.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Europe_Y-DNA..jpg
R1b is still missing from Middle Eastern Farmers, despite having the tools to extract and process their dna, in areas/regions of high degradation, like the Middle East Farmers.

Gravetto-Danubian
06-26-2016, 10:42 PM
No, you most certainly don't.

I'm not attempting to prove or debate with you, only point out R1b distribution. As the OP and myself share a common interest in that we are related by way of R1b. Albeit, he being in a very successful evolutionary branch L51+ [with possible ancient Latin connection?]
branch and myself being in a much smaller CTS-9219 branch shared by a small percentage of modern day Slav's and Ossetians, among others.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Europe_Y-DNA..jpg
R1b is still missing from Middle Eastern Farmers, despite having the tools to extract and process their dna, in areas/regions of high degradation, like the Middle East Farmers.

Yep no arguements there . Keep in mind I'm of Slavic- Balkan ancestry, so am also interested in Z2103. Had you gained the (false) impression that I had been arguing that R1b came from the ''Mid East"?
We have pre-M297 (& possibly M297) in Epipalaeolithic Italy, and probably a raft of R1b in Eastern Europe, so I don't think we need to upturn every corner of the world, right ? ;)
The only question which remains is which R1 clades were found in pre-Bronze age 'Central Asia", and how they got there

But i still reserve a more cautious mind for IE as a whole; which is far more complex than merely tracing EHG ancestry, at least for beyond temperate Europe - the steppe

Kanenas
06-26-2016, 11:00 PM
That R1b1-M415 (xM269) is found in Kura-Araxes is fascinating. The R1b male was buried in a single grave pit, which is what we would come to expect from a PIE culture burial. The marked increase in steppe like ancestry in Bronze Age Armenia compared to the Chalcolithic is also noteworthy. Just like prior papers pointed to North>South R1b movements on the steppe, this one points to a continuing a North>South movement for R1b lineages in the Caucasus.

Did you notice his pigmentation? I assume Genetiker is correct since most seem to think so. https://genetiker.wordpress.com/

It is this one: I1635

R.Rocca
06-26-2016, 11:11 PM
Nah there's nothing over-arching about Repin. Its relevance is only local (probably eastern Yamnaya). IMO the different R1 lineages we later see in Europe came from different subgroups, it wasn't a "big bang" from Repin or anything equally far fetched. This will become apparent as we Sample more of the step and adjacent regions of Eastern Europe & northern caucuses.

Of course it wasn't a big bang... there is a big time interval between the earliest Repin (4000 BC) and the very large Bell Beaker explosion all over Western and Central Europe (2500 BC). However, that does not mean that the very first L23+ wasn't born in or around the Repin area.

Gravetto-Danubian
06-27-2016, 12:08 AM
Of course it wasn't a big bang... there is a big time interval between the earliest Repin (4000 BC) and the very large Bell Beaker explosion all over Western and Central Europe (2500 BC). However, that does not mean that the very first L23+ wasn't born in or around the Repin area.

Could well be. Or from Lower Mikhailovka, or Dereivka or Usatavo or Majkop. I see no special need to favour Repin other than perhaps what series readings have impressed the Retinas of most enthusiasts. But I'm not sure we are going to catch L23 in the act of 'being born', and on the whole, elevating Repin to a special status, as Khvalynsk before it, misses the big picture. And that is, a chain of transformative events which began as early as 5000 BC. I have a feeling that the little corner of the world that is the Volga steppe was one link in the chain, not the epicentre. But maybe I'm wrong to downplay it's significance

Silesian
06-27-2016, 12:50 AM
Could well be. Or from Lower Mikhailovka, or Dereivka or Usatavo or Majkop. I see no special need to favour Repin other than perhaps what series readings have impressed the Retinas of most enthusiasts. But I'm not sure we are going to catch L23 in the act of 'being born', and on the whole, elevating Repin to a special status, as Khvalynsk before it, misses the big picture. And that is, a chain of transformative events which began as early as 5000 BC. I have a feeling that the little corner of the world that is the Volga steppe was one link in the chain, not the epicentre. But maybe I'm wrong to downplay it's significance
Bykovo kurgan- Telegin1-stratified beneath Yamnaya.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=0FDqf415wqgC&pg=PA319&lpg=PA319&dq=repin+pottery&source=bl&ots=2Z81wVNKRB&sig=uLFau2nBkyAMoFyiNcp98SNsR4c&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiovs_C9sbNAhUMxoMKHXP8CdQQ6AEILTAG#v=on epage&q=repin%20pottery&f=false
Interesting you also have imported metal from Balkans.
http://revije.ff.uni-lj.si/DocumentaPraehistorica/article/viewFile/42.22/5098

Gravetto-Danubian
06-27-2016, 02:09 AM
Bykovo kurgan- Telegin1-stratified beneath Yamnaya.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=0FDqf415wqgC&pg=PA319&lpg=PA319&dq=repin+pottery&source=bl&ots=2Z81wVNKRB&sig=uLFau2nBkyAMoFyiNcp98SNsR4c&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiovs_C9sbNAhUMxoMKHXP8CdQQ6AEILTAG#v=on epage&q=repin%20pottery&f=false
Interesting you also have imported metal from Balkans.
http://revije.ff.uni-lj.si/DocumentaPraehistorica/article/viewFile/42.22/5098

I have those article, but thanks for bringing attention again.
Morgunova writes "Where did the outlanders who prompted the Eneolithic period in the Volga-Urals region come from? Considering the complex motifs of the pottery in question, which have some prototypes in the Azov- Dnieper culture and at the early stage of the Tripolsky culture (Kotova 2006), they most probably arrived from the west, i.e. from the north Black Sea area. This is suggested by a certain similarity between the grave goods from burial grounds at Sjezheye and Mariupol (Vasilyev 1981)."

Essentially, what I have always argued from the perspective of archaeology: the Volga area were Stone Age fisher-foragers. Then by the "classic Yamnaya" phase (~ 2900 - 2600 BC), they are mobile agro-pastorlists with wheeld transport and complex metallurgy. Needless to say, ample ethnographic evidence (& common sense) alerts us to not a process of 'local adaptation' but introduction of a 'cultural package' from elsewhere.

This squares with the genetic evidence: from Mesolithic & Khlvalynsk we have 4 samples with ~ 10% "CHG", none of which are M269, then in Yamnaya virtually 100 % M269, and specifically Z2103, with almost 50% CHG
This is mass replacement if there ever was one (albeit from within the steppe itself). If they came with Repin, it would make sense, but we'd need actual Repin samples (and there are plenty to choose from burial grounds). But the key thing is the major centres were the west Black Sea region and Majkop; not the Volga-Caspian, and whatever local groups were there.

R.Rocca
06-28-2016, 02:24 PM
I have those article, but thanks for bringing attention again.
Morgunova writes "Where did the outlanders who prompted the Eneolithic period in the Volga-Urals region come from? Considering the complex motifs of the pottery in question, which have some prototypes in the Azov- Dnieper culture and at the early stage of the Tripolsky culture (Kotova 2006), they most probably arrived from the west, i.e. from the north Black Sea area. This is suggested by a certain similarity between the grave goods from burial grounds at Sjezheye and Mariupol (Vasilyev 1981)."

Essentially, what I have always argued from the perspective of archaeology: the Volga area were Stone Age fisher-foragers. Then by the "classic Yamnaya" phase (~ 2900 - 2600 BC), they are mobile agro-pastorlists with wheeld transport and complex metallurgy. Needless to say, ample ethnographic evidence (& common sense) alerts us to not a process of 'local adaptation' but introduction of a 'cultural package' from elsewhere.

This squares with the genetic evidence: from Mesolithic & Khlvalynsk we have 4 samples with ~ 10% "CHG", none of which are M269, then in Yamnaya virtually 100 % M269, and specifically Z2103, with almost 50% CHG
This is mass replacement if there ever was one (albeit from within the steppe itself). If they came with Repin, it would make sense, but we'd need actual Repin samples (and there are plenty to choose from burial grounds). But the key thing is the major centres were the west Black Sea region and Majkop; not the Volga-Caspian, and whatever local groups were there.

I don't think it is as clear cut as that. The introduction of some parts of a cultural package (say from Maykop) with some other factors (steppe horse husbandry, plague etc.) may have combined to reached a critical mass which allowed a new concatenated package to flourish and expand.

R.Rocca
08-08-2016, 07:14 PM
Just to add to this thread... three central Anatolian males now belonging to G2a, one to C1 and the remaining one could be just about anything. It's taken nearly six years, but I think that it's pretty safe to say that Balaresque's "A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for European Paternal Lineages" has been refuted.

vettor
08-08-2016, 07:17 PM
Is there any way to know if these recent G2a's found in SE-Anatolia can be related to LBK in central Germany?

vettor
08-08-2016, 07:19 PM
Yep no arguements there . Keep in mind I'm of Slavic- Balkan ancestry, so am also interested in Z2103. Had you gained the (false) impression that I had been arguing that R1b came from the ''Mid East"?
We have pre-M297 (& possibly M297) in Epipalaeolithic Italy, and probably a raft of R1b in Eastern Europe, so I don't think we need to upturn every corner of the world, right ? ;)
The only question which remains is which R1 clades were found in pre-Bronze age 'Central Asia", and how they got there

But i still reserve a more cautious mind for IE as a whole; which is far more complex than merely tracing EHG ancestry, at least for beyond temperate Europe - the steppe

maybe it would be best if the person who created this used 25% instead of 35% to indicate who is where

Silesian
08-08-2016, 10:34 PM
This squares with the genetic evidence: from Mesolithic & Khlvalynsk we have 4 samples with ~ 10% "CHG", none of which are M269, then in Yamnaya virtually 100 % M269, and specifically Z2103, with almost 50% CHG
This is mass replacement if there ever was one (albeit from within the steppe itself). If they came with Repin, it would make sense, but we'd need actual Repin samples (and there are plenty to choose from burial grounds). But the key thing is the major centres were the west Black Sea region and Majkop; not the Volga-Caspian, and whatever local groups were there.
Feel free to agree, or refute the data I present[posting your results] with your own examples using any combination of snp's and autosomal calculator results.
Not perfect[results, can fluctuate+/-] but using in house calculators[Kurd+Gedmatch] to get a general idea-
Khlvalynsk R1b-L754+ description
10848
Calculator description using ancient samples;

Near East Neolithic K13 Admixture Proportions
NATUFIAN: Is based on ancient genome recovered from the Levant. The Natufian culture was an Epipaleolithic culture that existed from 12,500 to 9,500 BC in the Levant.
EHG: Eastern European Hunter Gatherers.
WHG: Western European Hunter Gatherers.
SHG: Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers.
CHG: Caucausus Hunter Gatherers
EEF: European Early Farmers
Khlvalynsk R1b-L754+[sampleIO122]
10850
Samara EHG R1b-M73-Y13872[sampleIO124]
10851
Yamnaya-Kalmykia Temrta IVR1b-L23+[sample Rise548]
10852
Poltavka-R1b-Z2109>KMS75[sampleIO440]found in modern day Burzyan-Bashkir's-region,
10849

R.Rocca
08-08-2016, 11:18 PM
Feel free to agree, or refute the data I present[posting your results] with your own examples using any combination of snp's and autosomal calculator results.
Not perfect[results, can fluctuate+/-] but using in house calculators[Kurd+Gedmatch] to get a general idea-
Khlvalynsk R1b-L754+ description
10848
Calculator description using ancient samples;

Near East Neolithic K13 Admixture Proportions
NATUFIAN: Is based on ancient genome recovered from the Levant. The Natufian culture was an Epipaleolithic culture that existed from 12,500 to 9,500 BC in the Levant.
EHG: Eastern European Hunter Gatherers.
WHG: Western European Hunter Gatherers.
SHG: Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers.
CHG: Caucausus Hunter Gatherers
EEF: European Early Farmers
Khlvalynsk R1b-L754+[sampleIO122]
10850
Samara EHG R1b-M73-Y13872[sampleIO124]
10851
Yamnaya-Kalmykia Temrta IVR1b-L23+[sample Rise548]
10852
Poltavka-R1b-Z2109>KMS75[sampleIO440]found in modern day Burzyan-Bashkir's-region,
10849

Is this from a specific GedMatch calculator?

Gravetto-Danubian
08-09-2016, 12:04 AM
Feel free to agree, or refute the data I present[posting your results] with your own examples using any combination of snp's and autosomal calculator results.
Not perfect[results, can fluctuate+/-] but using in house calculators[Kurd+Gedmatch] to get a general idea-
Khlvalynsk R1b-L754+ description
10848
Calculator description using ancient samples;

Near East Neolithic K13 Admixture Proportions
NATUFIAN: Is based on ancient genome recovered from the Levant. The Natufian culture was an Epipaleolithic culture that existed from 12,500 to 9,500 BC in the Levant.
EHG: Eastern European Hunter Gatherers.
WHG: Western European Hunter Gatherers.
SHG: Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers.
CHG: Caucausus Hunter Gatherers
EEF: European Early Farmers
Khlvalynsk R1b-L754+[sampleIO122]
10850
Samara EHG R1b-M73-Y13872[sampleIO124]
10851
Yamnaya-Kalmykia Temrta IVR1b-L23+[sample Rise548]
10852
Poltavka-R1b-Z2109>KMS75[sampleIO440]found in modern day Burzyan-Bashkir's-region,
10849

It seems that just happens to the least admixed Kalmykia sample (if the calculator is even accurate), so it's somewhat meaningless on its own. On average, CHG admixture is 45%
Keep in mind, I'm suggesting replacements from within the steppe region itself, one group by another (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7877-Broushaki-et-al-quot-Early-Neolithic-genomes-from-the-eastern-Fertile-Crescent-quot&p=176281#post176281).

Silesian
08-09-2016, 12:55 AM
Is this from a specific GedMatch calculator?
GedrosiaDNA>NearEast NeolithicK13

Silesian
08-09-2016, 01:19 AM
It seems that just happens to the least admixed Kalmykia sample (if the calculator is even accurate), so it's somewhat meaningless on its own. On average, CHG admixture is 45%
Keep in mind, I'm suggesting replacements from within the steppe region itself, one group by another (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7877-Broushaki-et-al-quot-Early-Neolithic-genomes-from-the-eastern-Fertile-Crescent-quot&p=176281#post176281).
That R1b that you say is the least admixed is pegged at L23+. Eurogenes Hunter Gatherer was created before all the ancient samples were used in the above calculator.Using same calculator across various samples of R1b and R1a, and not re-combining and tweeking them with other samples.
Using an older Eurogenes Hunter Gatherer model and substituting Sintashta for Poltovka. Not exactly the same, similar,
R1b-L754 Khvalynsk
10853
R1b-L73 Samara
10854
R1b-Kalymkia L23
10855

R1a-Sintashta
10856

Silesian
08-09-2016, 01:29 AM
That R1b that you say is the least admixed is pegged at L23+. Eurogenes Hunter Gatherer was created before all the ancient samples were used in the above calculator.Using same calculator across various samples of R1b and R1a, and not re-combining and tweeking them with other samples.
Using an older Eurogenes Hunter Gatherer model and substituting Sintashta for Poltovka. Not exactly the same, similar,
R1b-L754 Khvalynsk
10853
R1b-L73 Samara
10854
R1b-Kalymkia L23
10855

R1a-Sintashta
10856

Edit Kalymkia duplicate with correct F999968

10857

Gravetto-Danubian
08-09-2016, 01:32 AM
Ok.It's probably best not to confuse ourselves with older calcs, and stick to the academic papers or something like Dave's CHG K8

Silesian
08-14-2016, 09:53 PM
Ok.It's probably best not to confuse ourselves with older calcs, and stick to the academic papers or something like Dave's CHG K8
How about Kurd's new "Ancient Eurasia K6 Admixture Proportions" + coupled with some IBD map's in red and green?

Malta1>IBD
10966
Malta1>Eurasia K6
10967

Villabruna>IBD
10968
Villabruna>Eurasia K6
10969

Yamnaya>IBD
10970

BR2 77,11 ---//Confidence: very low
Moksha 67,05 ---//Confidence: low
Estonian 64,63 ---//Confidence: high
German 63,96 ---//Confidence: medium
Finnish 63,93 ---//Confidence: low
Balt 63,66 ---//Confidence: high
Swedish 63,16 ---//Confidence: high
Kosovar 62,21 ---//Confidence: medium
Ukrainian-East-and-Center 61,45 ---//Confidence: high
Russian-West 60,92 ---//Confidence: very high
Croatian 58,96 ---//Confidence: very high
Udmurt 58,96 ---//Confidence: high
Russian-North-Kargopol 58,86 ---//Confidence: very high
Ukrainian-West-and-Center 58,48 ---//Confidence: high
Norwegian 57,6 ---//Confidence: high
Russian-South 57,14 ---//Confidence: very high
Hungarian 56,87 ---//Confidence: very high
Belarusian 56,64 ---//Confidence: very high
British 55,98 ---//Confidence: very high
Chechen 55,85 ---//Confidence: very high
Karelian 55,53 ---//Confidence: high
Tatar-Volga 55,53 ---//Confidence: high
Russian-North-East 54,99 ---//Confidence: very high

Eurasia K6

Kit F999968

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 40.15
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 39.87
3 Natufian 19.58
4 East_Asian 0.4



# Population (source) Distance
1 Steppe_EMBA 6.82
2 Steppe_Eneolithic 14.72
3 Steppe_MLBA 15.85
4 Steppe_IA 18.3
5 Russian 23.24
6 Finnish 24.19
7 Estonian 24.56
8 Europe_LNBA 24.87
9 Lithuanian 25.49
10 Ukrainian 25.54
11 Norwegian 25.61
12 Icelandic 26.38

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 65.5% Lithuanian + 34.5% EHG @ 0.72
2 66.4% Estonian + 33.6% EHG @ 1.68
3 66.1% Europe_LNBA + 33.9% EHG @ 1.95
4 64.8% Icelandic + 35.2% EHG @ 2.4
5 90.6% Steppe_EMBA + 9.4% Motala12 @ 3.19
6 75.7% Steppe_MLBA + 24.3% EHG @ 3.25
7 90.3% Steppe_EMBA + 9.7% SHG @ 3.25
8 92.5% Steppe_EMBA + 7.5% WHG @ 3.29
9 92.5% Steppe_EMBA + 7.5% Hungarian_KO1 @ 3.29
10 74.9% Lithuanian + 25.1% AG2 @ 3.61

Gravetto-Danubian
08-14-2016, 10:19 PM
Silo
^^^^
Very nice
Did Kurd do those IBD maps, or Srkz ?

Fatherland
08-15-2016, 07:10 PM
R1b-L23 seems to be Yamnaya, bound between Ancient Tocharian-Armenia-Pontic-Balkan.

Silesian
08-16-2016, 09:07 PM
R1b-L23 seems to be Yamnaya, bound between Ancient Tocharian-Armenia-Pontic-Balkan.
Yes it is in all those places so far except Tocharians.
However as noted;

Afanasevo culture
Location of the Afanasevo culture

J. P. Mallory and Victor H. Mair argue that the Tocharian languages were introduced to the Tarim and Turpan basins from the Afanasevo culture to their immediate north. The Afanasevo culture (c. 3500 2500 BC) displays cultural and genetic connections with the Indo-European-associated cultures of the Central Asian steppe yet predates the specifically Indo-Iranian-associated Andronovo culture (c. 2000 900 BC) enough to isolate the Tocharian languages from Indo-Iranian linguistic innovations like satemization.[9][10]

Afanasevo are very similar to Yamnaya. Yamnaya culture are overwhelmingly 90-100% range R1b-Z2103, downstream from L23+

Even the old Sintashta culture thought to be a good candidate forerunner culture of proto-Indo-Iranians- is built over Poltavka, graves.
Poltavka is also 90-100% R1b-z2103.