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JFWinstone
11-27-2019, 05:51 PM
Waiting for confirmation but I think this person may be part Tanzanian part Kenyan

Cameroon, Congo and Southern Bantu Peoples - 27%
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 73%

Wangari
11-28-2019, 01:52 AM
Here are the updated Ancestry results of various Africans. I found the results of the Maasai, Kalenjin and Tutsi the most interesting:

Zambian:
2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 8%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 92%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 9%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 91%


Zimbabwean:
2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 16%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 84%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 18%
Cameroon, Congo & Southern Bantu Peoples - 82%


Ugandan:
2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 50%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 49%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 1%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 50%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 49%
S & E Africa HG - 6%


Ugandan:
2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 53%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 47%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 57%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 43%


Ugandan:
2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 60%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 40%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 62%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 38%


Luo:
2017 update:
Africa Southeastern Bantu - 99%

2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 67%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 27%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 6%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 69%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 24%
S & E Africa HG - 5%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 1%
Nigeria - 1%


Kisii:
2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 72%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 23%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 5%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 70%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 22%
S & E Africa HG - 5%
Somalia - 2%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 1%


Kisii:
2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 57%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 31%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 11%
Middle East - 1%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 51%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 30%
S & E Africa HG - 9%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 7%
Somalia - 3%


Kisii:
2017 update:
Africa South Eastern Bantu - 88%
Africa North - 4%
Middle East - 5%
Mali - 2%
Nigeria and Senegal - 1%

2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 68%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 24%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 8%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 64%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 22%
S & E Africa HG - 7%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 4%
Somalia - 3%


Kisii:
2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 68%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 22%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 9%
Middle East - 1%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 66%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 22%
S & E Africa HG - 6%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 5%
Somalia - 1%


Mijikenda:
2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 52%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 45%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 3%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 53%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 42%
S & E Africa HG - 3%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 1%
Somalia - 1%


Rwandan - Tutsi:
2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 61%
Cameroon, Congo, S Bantu Peoples - 6%
Africa South-Central HG - 29%
Northern Africa - 1%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 38%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 21%
Somalia - 19%
S & E Africa HG - 13%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 8%


Maasai:
2017 update:
Africa South Eastern Bantu - 73%
Africa North - 6%
Middle East - 17%
Senegal - 2%

2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 47%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 5%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 44%
Middle East - 4%

2019 update:
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 25%
S & E Africa HG - 25%
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 24%
Somalia - 6%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 4%


Kalenjin:
2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 66%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 6%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 27%
Middle East - 1%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 47%
S & E Africa HG - 25%
Somalia - 11%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 9%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 8%


Kamba:
2017 update:
Africa South Eastern Bantu - 69%
Africa North - 6%
Nigeria - 14%
Middle East - 10%

2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 56%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 32%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 9%
Middle East - 2%
Nigeria - 1%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 47%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 32%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 10%
Somalia - 6%
S & E Africa HG - 5%


Kamba:
2017 update:
Africa South Eastern Bantu - 62%
Cameroon Congo - 2%
Africa North - 4%
Nigeria - 18%
Middle East - 12%
Senegal - 1%

2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 53%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 28%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 17%
Middle East - 2%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 42%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 29%
S & E Africa HG - 12%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 10%
Somalia - 7%


Meru:
2017 update:
Africa South Eastern Bantu - 67%
Cameroon Congo - 2%
Africa North - 5%
Nigeria - 14%
Middle East - 6%
Benin Togo - 3%
Senegal - 2%

2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 51%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 37%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 11%
Middle East - 1%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 46%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 40%
S & E Africa HG - 8%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 5%
Somalia - 1%


Meru:
2017 update:
Africa South Eastern Bantu - 69%
Africa North - 7%
Middle East - 13%
Senegal - 9%
Nigeria - 1%
Benin Togo - 1%

2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 54%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 23%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 21%
Northern Africa - 1%
Middle East - 1%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 46%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 24%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 15%
S & E Africa HG - 9%
Somalia - 6%


Meru:
2017 update:
Africa South Eastern Bantu - 36%
Africa South-Central Hunter-Gatherers - 1%
Africa North - 9%
Nigeria - 14%
Middle East - 10%
Senegal - 2%

2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 71%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 19%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 8%
Middle East - 2%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 52%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 23%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 9%
S & E Africa HG - 8%
Somalia - 8%

Embu:
2017 update:
Africa South Eastern Bantu - 81%
Africa North - 3%
Middle East - 8%
Senegal - 4%
Benin Togo - 3%

2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 59%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 33%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 8%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 53%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 35%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 5%
S & E Africa HG - 4%
Somalia - 3%


Kikuyu:
2017 update:
Africa South Eastern Bantu - 83%
Africa North - 5%
Middle East - 9%
Senegal - 2%
Nigeria - 1%

2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 59%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 32%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 9%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 49%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 33%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 9%
Somalia - 5%
S & E Africa HG - 4%

Kikuyu:
2017 update:
Africa South Eastern Bantu - 59%
Cameroon Congo - 8%
Africa South-Central Hunter-Gatherers - 2%
Africa North - 6%
Middle East - 12%
Senegal - 5%
Nigeria - 5%
Ivory Coast/Ghana - 2%

2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 53%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 27%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 17%
Northern Africa - 1%
Middle East - 2%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 41%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 30%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 12%
Somalia - 10%
S & E Africa HG - 7%


Kikuyu:
2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 57%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 17%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 24%
Northern Africa - 1%
Middle East - 1%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 48%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 20%
S & E Africa HG - 14%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 13%
Somalia - 5%

Wangari
11-28-2019, 02:02 AM
Waiting for confirmation but I think this person may be part Tanzanian part Kenyan

Cameroon, Congo and Southern Bantu Peoples - 27%
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 73%

Some Tanzanians, Kenyans, and Ugandans, seem to have similar genetic profiles. They appear rather homogenous, but that changes a little when you look at their gedmatch results. I have the gedmatch results of various Africans and can post them if you are interested.

drobbah
11-28-2019, 02:19 AM
Here are the updated Ancestry results of various Africans (I found the results of the Maasai, Kalenjin and Tutsi the most interesting; is it possible they have the same ancestral heritage?):

Zambian:
2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 8%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 92%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 9%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 91%


Zimbabwean:
2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 16%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 84%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 18%
Cameroon, Congo & Southern Bantu Peoples - 82%


Ugandan:
2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 50%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 49%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 1%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 50%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 49%
S & E Africa HG - 6%


Ugandan:
2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 53%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 47%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 57%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 43%


Ugandan:
2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 60%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 40%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 62%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 38%


Luo:
2017 update:
Africa Southeastern Bantu - 99%

2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 67%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 27%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 6%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 69%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 24%
S & E Africa HG - 5%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 1%
Nigeria - 1%


Kisii:
2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 72%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 23%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 5%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 70%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 22%
S & E Africa HG - 5%
Somalia - 2%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 1%


Kisii:
2017 update:
Africa South Eastern Bantu - 67%
Cameroon Congo - 2%
Africa North - 2%
Nigeria - 13%
Middle East - 9%
Mali - 7%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 63%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 27%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 7%
S & E Africa HG - 3%


Kisii:
2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 57%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 31%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 11%
Middle East - 1%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 51%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 30%
S & E Africa HG - 9%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 7%
Somalia - 3%


Kisii:
2017 update:
Africa South Eastern Bantu - 88%
Africa North - 4%
Middle East - 5%
Mali - 2%
Nigeria and Senegal - 1%

2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 68%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 24%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 8%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 64%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 22%
S & E Africa HG - 7%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 4%
Somalia - 3%


Kisii:
2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 68%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 22%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 9%
Middle East - 1%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 66%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 22%
S & E Africa HG - 6%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 5%
Somalia - 1%


Mijikenda:
2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 52%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 45%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 3%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 53%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 42%
S & E Africa HG - 3%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 1%
Somalia - 1%


Rwandan - Tutsi:
2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 61%
Cameroon, Congo, S Bantu Peoples - 6%
Africa South-Central HG - 29%
Northern Africa - 1%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 38%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 21%
Somalia - 19%
S & E Africa HG - 13%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 8%


Maasai:
2017 update:
Africa South Eastern Bantu - 69%
Cameroon Congo - 1%
Africa South-Central Hunter-Gatherers - 1%
Africa North - 4%
Middle East - 14%
Nigeria - 6%
Senegal - 2%
Mali - 1%

2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 65%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 13%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 21%
Middle East - 1%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 48%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 16%
S & E Africa HG - 14%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 14%
Somalia - 7%
Nigeria - 1%

Maasai:
2017 update:
Africa South Eastern Bantu - 73%
Africa North - 6%
Middle East - 17%
Senegal - 2%

2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 47%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 5%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 44%
Middle East - 4%

2019 update:
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 25%
S & E Africa HG - 25%
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 24%
Somalia - 6%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 4%


Kalenjin:
2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 66%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 6%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 27%
Middle East - 1%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 47%
S & E Africa HG - 25%
Somalia - 11%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 9%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 8%


Kamba:
2017 update:
Africa South Eastern Bantu - 69%
Africa North - 6%
Nigeria - 14%
Middle East - 10%

2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 56%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 32%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 9%
Middle East - 2%
Nigeria - 1%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 47%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 32%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 10%
Somalia - 6%
S & E Africa HG - 5%


Kamba:
2017 update:
Africa South Eastern Bantu - 62%
Cameroon Congo - 2%
Africa North - 4%
Nigeria - 18%
Middle East - 12%
Senegal - 1%

2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 53%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 28%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 17%
Middle East - 2%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 42%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 29%
S & E Africa HG - 12%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 10%
Somalia - 7%


Meru:
2017 update:
Africa South Eastern Bantu - 67%
Cameroon Congo - 2%
Africa North - 5%
Nigeria - 14%
Middle East - 6%
Benin Togo - 3%
Senegal - 2%

2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 51%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 37%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 11%
Middle East - 1%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 46%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 40%
S & E Africa HG - 8%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 5%
Somalia - 1%


Meru:
2017 update:
Africa South Eastern Bantu - 69%
Africa North - 7%
Middle East - 13%
Senegal - 9%
Nigeria - 1%
Benin Togo - 1%

2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 54%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 23%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 21%
Northern Africa - 1%
Middle East - 1%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 46%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 24%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 15%
S & E Africa HG - 9%
Somalia - 6%


Meru:
2017 update:
Africa South Eastern Bantu - 36%
Africa South-Central Hunter-Gatherers - 1%
Africa North - 9%
Nigeria - 14%
Middle East - 10%
Senegal - 2%

2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 71%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 19%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 8%
Middle East - 2%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 52%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 23%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 9%
S & E Africa HG - 8%
Somalia - 8%

Embu:
2017 update:
Africa South Eastern Bantu - 81%
Africa North - 3%
Middle East - 8%
Senegal - 4%
Benin Togo - 3%

2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 59%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 33%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 8%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 53%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 35%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 5%
S & E Africa HG - 4%
Somalia - 3%


Kikuyu:
2017 update:
Africa South Eastern Bantu - 83%
Africa North - 5%
Middle East - 9%
Senegal - 2%
Nigeria - 1%

2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 59%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 32%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 9%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 49%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 33%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 9%
Somalia - 5%
S & E Africa HG - 4%

Kikuyu:
2017 update:
Africa South Eastern Bantu - 59%
Cameroon Congo - 8%
Africa South-Central Hunter-Gatherers - 2%
Africa North - 6%
Middle East - 12%
Senegal - 5%
Nigeria - 5%
Ivory Coast/Ghana - 2%

2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 53%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 27%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 17%
Northern Africa - 1%
Middle East - 2%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 41%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 30%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 12%
Somalia - 10%
S & E Africa HG - 7%


Kikuyu:
2018 update:
Eastern Africa - 57%
Cameroon, Congo, Southern Bantu - 17%
Africa South Central Hunter Gatherers - 24%
Northern Africa - 1%
Middle East - 1%

2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 48%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 20%
S & E Africa HG - 14%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 13%
Somalia - 5%

The Ethio/Eri and Somali percentages if added up, do they amount to the amount of Horner ancestry these groups carry?


Edit: Both my parents score 74% Somali and 26% Eritrean/Ethiopian

Wangari
11-28-2019, 04:54 AM
The Ethio/Eri and Somali percentages if added up, do they amount to the amount of Horner ancestry these groups carry?


Edit: Both my parents score 74% Somali and 26% Eritrean/Ethiopian

That seems to be the case; although, it's possible that the horner admixture is more recent seeing that ancestry.com is using modern horner samples to extrapolate these amounts. It might be possible that these ethnic groups have even more ancient horner/South Cushitic admixture?

Rwaka
11-29-2019, 02:53 AM
2019
https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/1057594130/AncestryDNA/AncestryDNA2019.png

Are you a Fula?

JFWinstone
11-29-2019, 01:55 PM
Some Tanzanians, Kenyans, and Ugandans, seem to have similar genetic profiles. They appear rather homogenous, but that changes a little when you look at their gedmatch results. I have the gedmatch results of various Africans and can post them if you are interested.

Got confirmation that he's Kenyan Maragoli tribe

SWAHILLI_PRINCE16
11-30-2019, 12:20 PM
A Lamu Swahili ( 90% Sub Saharan African) she didnt show her full results though.

35058

Hurricane
12-16-2019, 12:19 AM
Are you a Fula?

No im not. I descend from oasis dwellers (maternal) and sedentarized nomads (paternal)
Therefore, my mother is considered as a "Haratin".
As for my father, hes linked to nomads from Sudan. My surname which is in berber, when translated into arabic, is the name of a nomadic tribe from Northern Sudan.

Hurricane
12-16-2019, 08:23 PM
The automated computer results are as follows.

Please read the attached .rtf file for an explanation of how to

interpret all the data and plots. Both can be misleading without interpretation.



Most likely fit is 50.0% (+- 1.7%) Africa (all West African)

and 37.7% (+- 7.3%) Africa (all East African)

which is 87.6% total Africa

and 12.4% (+- 5.7%) Mideast (various subcontinents)



The following are possible population sets and their fractions,

most likely at the top

Mandenka= 0.490 T-Ethiopia= 0.417 Jewish= 0.093 or

Mandenka= 0.496 T-Ethiopia= 0.403 Sephardic= 0.101 or

Mandenka= 0.478 T-Ethiopia= 0.449 Adygei= 0.073 or

Mandenka= 0.486 T-Ethiopia= 0.428 Turkish= 0.086 or

Mandenka= 0.518 T-Ethiopia= 0.330 Palestinia= 0.152 or

Mandenka= 0.525 T-Ethiopia= 0.250 Egyptian= 0.225 or

Mandenka= 0.494 A-Ethiopia= 0.410 Jewish= 0.096 or

Mandenka= 0.495 T-Ethiopia= 0.411 Armenian= 0.094 or

Mandenka= 0.486 T-Ethiopia= 0.431 Georgian= 0.083 or

Mandenka= 0.529 A-Ethiopia= 0.237 Egyptian= 0.234



a custom fit gives only



Moroccan 0.2704 Mandenka 0.0621 Yoruba 0.4370 T-Ethiopian 0.2305 or

Moroccan 0.3220 Mandenka 0.0487 Yoruba 0.4156 O-Ethiopian 0.2137 or

Moroccan 0.2783 Mandenka 0.0540 Yoruba 0.4474 A-Ethiopian 0.2203



My program is trying to do its best with a person who is simply quite different from

any of our comparison groups ... clearly they are made of the same ancient stock, just mixed

very differently.



The overall sub-Saharan percentage is 67% and this is likely quite accurate.

https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/1057594130/DOUGMCD/rad_aid_Full_20131219025203BGA1.png
https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/1057594130/DOUGMCD/rad_aid_Full_2013121902BGA2.png
https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/1057594130/DOUGMCD/rad_aid_Full_2013121902BGA3.png

Deftextra
12-23-2019, 05:48 PM
My mothers uncle myHeritage results. The European and American results are just too much. Its hard to take my Heritage seriously sometimes.

35580
35581

SWAHILLI_PRINCE16
12-23-2019, 07:47 PM
My mothers uncle myHeritage results. The European and American results are just too much. Its hard to take my Heritage seriously sometimes.

35580
35581

Yeah Iv'e noticed that MyHeritage can give a person particular ancestry which a person doesn't have especially with the raw data upload. I received 5.2% European on MyHeritage using my raw data upload which i know is false however, when i tested using the saliva sample the results were less BS and the European wasn't there.

JFWinstone
01-25-2020, 09:08 PM
Zimbabwean match

79% Cameroon, Congo and Southern Bantu Peoples
20% Eastern Bantu Peoples
1% Southern & Eastern Africa Hunter-Gatherers

SWAHILLI_PRINCE16
02-19-2020, 11:11 AM
My results using my 23andme raw data which i uploaded to LivingDNA ( I'm thinking about doing the kit test for info on my recent ancestry however, i don't know if it will be worth the money.)

96.8% Africa
3.2% Near East

36430

GabrielZelalem
02-23-2020, 02:07 PM
My LivingDNA results
AFRICA 57.6%
Nilotic Peoples 24.2%
East Africa 12.3%
Yorubaland 9.6%
Mandinka 8.5%
North Africa 3%
NEAR EAST 33.5%
Levant 23%
Arabia 10.5%
EUROPE 7.3%
South Italy 7.3%
ASIA (SOUTH) 1.6%
Indian subcontinent 1.6%

JFWinstone
02-23-2020, 05:58 PM
Malagasy

Cameroon, Congo and Southern Bantu Peoples - 24%
Philippines - 48%
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 7%
Southeast Asia - 20%
Southern & Eastern Africa Hunter-Gatherers - 1%

Hurricane
02-25-2020, 08:35 PM
Shiagi Sudan?

Nope, but i certainly have shaigya ancestry



LivingDNA
https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/1057594130/LIVINGDNA/5Complete-Regional.png



Here are my updated results
https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/1057594130/LIVINGDNA/Livingdna2020.jpg
https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/1057594130/LIVINGDNA/Livingdna20201.jpg

SWAHILLI_PRINCE16
02-26-2020, 01:00 PM
I am impressed with Living-DNA's new update including 72 African regions. Seeing Kenyan Coastal Bantu tribes like the Giriama, Kaume ,Kambe and Chonyi who all fall under the Mijikenda group is something that i haven't seen on any other DNA test.

Since Swahili people and the Mijikenda share a common origin and were once one tribe (this is debatable) and splitted up migrating from Coastal Somalia (Shungwaya) which both the Swahili and Mijikenda elders highly emphasise on. i'm very tempted to try this test out to find out if the Swahili and Mijikenda were once one tribe.

36532

TonyScaletta
02-26-2020, 01:08 PM
https://i.imgur.com/UTdaEVE.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/AhbwV8G.png

Hurricane
03-05-2020, 07:19 PM
Father's results

OLD VERSION
https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/1057594130/LIVINGDNA/HLVDNA20202.jpg
https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/1057594130/LIVINGDNA/HLVDNA20203.jpg

UPDATED
https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/1057594130/LIVINGDNA/HLVDNA2020.jpg
https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/1057594130/LIVINGDNA/HLVDNA20201.jpg

Hurricane
03-05-2020, 07:53 PM
Mother's results

OLD VERSION
https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/1057594130/LIVINGDNA/HALVDNA2020.jpg
https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/1057594130/LIVINGDNA/HALVDNA20202.jpg

UPDATED
https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/1057594130/LIVINGDNA/HALVDNA20203.jpg
https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/1057594130/LIVINGDNA/HALVDNA20204.jpg

Hurricane
03-31-2020, 12:25 PM
One of my newest matches. Possibly from Chad or Northern Nigeria.

https://i.imgur.com/lhXVeLN.png

JFWinstone
04-07-2020, 05:04 PM
Ugandan match

47% Cameroon, Congo & Southern Bantu Peoples
51% Eastern Bantu Peoples
2% Southern & Eastern Africa Hunter-Gatherers

ThaYamamoto
04-07-2020, 08:33 PM
Ugandan match

47% Cameroon, Congo & Southern Bantu Peoples
51% Eastern Bantu Peoples
2% Southern & Eastern Africa Hunter-Gatherers

Makes me think with Ugandan's in particular, why Cameroon+ is always high or preferred over Eastern Bantu. Guess a second stream or injection of more recent West-African ancestry makes sense.

Amhas
04-08-2020, 07:59 PM
Deleted

Espoir
04-25-2020, 06:45 AM
Me and brother’s 23andme results
37294

Me and my cousin’s Myheritage results
37295

ThaYamamoto
06-29-2020, 02:24 AM
Some Tanzanians, Kenyans, and Ugandans, seem to have similar genetic profiles. They appear rather homogenous, but that changes a little when you look at their gedmatch results. I have the gedmatch results of various Africans and can post them if you are interested.

Could you post these please?


Got confirmation that he's Kenyan Maragoli tribe

Incredible rugby players lol

SWAHILLI_PRINCE16
06-29-2020, 06:44 PM
One of my DNA relatives on 23andme from his AC he appears to be Bajuni.

55.6% Sub-Saharan African
20.9% Central & South Asian
18.3% West Asian & North African
0.5% European
0.4% East Asian & Native American
4.3% Unassigned

Bajunis even phenotypically speaking seem to look more Afro-Arab (mixed) than other Swahili Sub-tribes. Their genetic make up is similar to the Bravanese.

Wangari
06-30-2020, 02:52 AM
Could you post these please?


If you have access to gedmatch, I can send the kit numbers via private message. That way you'll be able to play around with the different admixtures.

ThaYamamoto
06-30-2020, 09:16 PM
If you have access to gedmatch, I can send the kit numbers via private message. That way you'll be able to play around with the different admixtures.

That would be great, thanks.

Angoliga
07-12-2020, 11:18 PM
Here's results of a South-Sudanese match (right):

https://i.imgur.com/XRzfFYx.png

There seems to be a pattern for substantial "West-Sudanic" (Senegalese/Malian) in Nilo-Saharans; it was a similar breakdown for this Ugandan Nilo-Saharan match from the West-Nile:

https://i.imgur.com/pxgUZaZ.png
(previously posted here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7619-My-fellow-Africans-share-your-ancestral-results-from-different-DNA-companies&p=612719&viewfull=1#post612719))


This might gel with my little pet-theory (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19046-Blame-it-on-the-Rain-Paleohydrologic-considerations-for-Shaping-African-Substructure&p=656772&viewfull=1#post656772) for Atlantic West-African contribution in westward migrating AEA pops during the NSp (~12-5 kybp)

Deftextra
07-13-2020, 12:34 AM
One of my DNA relatives on 23andme from his AC he appears to be Bajuni.

55.6% Sub-Saharan African
20.9% Central & South Asian
18.3% West Asian & North African
0.5% European
0.4% East Asian & Native American
4.3% Unassigned

Bajunis even phenotypically speaking seem to look more Afro-Arab (mixed) than other Swahili Sub-tribes. Their genetic make up is similar to the Bravanese.

I have come come across matches who are similarly admixed. Their west Eurasian side is very similar to Benadiris.

ThaYamamoto
07-13-2020, 05:23 PM
Here's results of a South-Sudanese match (right):

https://i.imgur.com/XRzfFYx.png

There seems to be a pattern for substantial "West-Sudanic" (Senegalese/Malian) in Nilo-Saharans; it was a similar breakdown for this Ugandan Nilo-Saharan match from the West-Nile:

https://i.imgur.com/pxgUZaZ.png
(previously posted here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7619-My-fellow-Africans-share-your-ancestral-results-from-different-DNA-companies&p=612719&viewfull=1#post612719))


This might gel with my little pet-theory (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19046-Blame-it-on-the-Rain-Paleohydrologic-considerations-for-Shaping-African-Substructure&p=656772&viewfull=1#post656772) for Atlantic West-African contribution in westward migrating AEA pops during the NSp (~12-5 kybp)

Yeah I'm definitely a supporter of your theory, I was looking at Anuaks in the other thread and they have that non-Bantu Niger-Kordofanian signal too...then when looking at the proto-Luos i.e. the Shilluk, I noticed they have even more WA than Dinkas on admixture. This had to have occurred during the time frame you're claiming imo...I just wonder then these WA-admixed East Africans arrived in their current distribution, and why the ancestors of Horners most likely did not have this WA shift! It still bugs me though that in modern Western-Nilotic speakers like Luos, its still hard to discern the more non-Bantu NK ancestry that is most definitely present. I do think that the current Luo sample is a rubbish representation of Luo's though, so it could be that.

drobbah
07-13-2020, 05:55 PM
Yeah I'm definitely a supporter of your theory, I was looking at Anuaks in the other thread and they have that non-Bantu Niger-Kordofanian signal too...then when looking at the proto-Luos i.e. the Shilluk, I noticed they have even more WA than Dinkas on admixture. This had to have occurred during the time frame you're claiming imo...I just wonder then these WA-admixed East Africans arrived in their current distribution, and why the ancestors of Horners most likely did not have this WA shift! It still bugs me though that in modern Western-Nilotic speakers like Luos, its still hard to discern the more non-Bantu NK ancestry that is most definitely present. I do think that the current Luo sample is a rubbish representation of Luo's though, so it could be that.
On G25 it seems they are more East African compared to the Dinka.

Target: Ethiopian_Anuak
Distance: 1.2998% / 0.01299771
91.8 Dinka
7.2 KEN_LSA
1.0 CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP

ThaYamamoto
07-13-2020, 07:46 PM
On G25 it seems they are more East African compared to the Dinka.

Target: Ethiopian_Anuak
Distance: 1.2998% / 0.01299771
91.8 Dinka
7.2 KEN_LSA
1.0 CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP

No no bro I mean't Shilluk as the proto-Luos, not Anuak on Admixture [all credit to Angoliga for the first image]

3848338484

The cyan component is an indication of WA as well as the orange. Unfortunately Shilluk aren't on the G25, woulda been nice. Seems as even the Anuak are closer to the proto-Luo homeland or dispersal point, they still invariably have admixture that probably isn't apparent in the Shilluk.

ThaYamamoto
07-13-2020, 09:35 PM
Some Anuak runs:

Angoliga
07-14-2020, 10:25 PM
Yeah I'm definitely a supporter of your theory, I was looking at Anuaks in the other thread and they have that non-Bantu Niger-Kordofanian signal too...then when looking at the proto-Luos i.e. the Shilluk, I noticed they have even more WA than Dinkas on admixture. This had to have occurred during the time frame you're claiming imo...

I think their extra WA-affinity is a more recent layer from adjacent Sahelian pops; notice the Hollfelder paper showed them at lower runs sharing a component peaking among adjacent Nilo-Saharan Darfurians (Gemar, Zaghawa).
The first layer of WA introgression, the seemingly afmd Atlantic West-African variety, would've hypothetically been derived from a much earlier period during the Green-Sahara (NSp 12-5kybp) -- that seems like the most parsimonious explanation since this layer appears to be ubiquitous across all Nilotic pops




just wonder then these WA-admixed East Africans arrived in their current distribution, and why the ancestors of Horners most likely did not have this WA shift!
They would've likely arrived increasingly towards the end of the NSp; when desiccation of the Green Sahara intensified the Nile-Valley and connecting Wadis became their refugia -- prior to that the Middle-Nile-Valley was ecologically considered non-conducive for human occupation

Regarding Horner populations lack of WA-affinity despite ironically deriving nearly half of their ancestry from an Ancestral-East-African source, here's (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19046-Blame-it-on-the-Rain-Paleohydrologic-considerations-for-Shaping-African-Substructure&p=624750&viewfull=1#post624750) a previous post attempting to answer the riddle. Imho, we've totally underestimated the physical paleohydrolic barriers of the period and their demographic consequences for pops on either side of the Nile.





It still bugs me though that in modern Western-Nilotic speakers like Luos, its still hard to discern the more non-Bantu NK ancestry that is most definitely present. I do think that the current Luo sample is a rubbish representation of Luo's though, so it could be that.

Which Luo samples are you referring to, the ones currently available on G25? Luos have a pretty wide variation of genetic profiles depending the region/population (Anuak, Acholi, Alur etc), if I recall correctly, their Nilotic affinities had more less a steady cline from South-Sudan down to the Great-Lakes -- which makes sense I guess, considering their fairly recent aggressive expansion

ThaYamamoto
07-14-2020, 11:12 PM
I think their extra WA-affinity is a more recent layer from adjacent Sahelian pops; notice the Hollfelder paper showed them at lower runs sharing a component peaking among adjacent Nilo-Saharan Darfurians (Gemar, Zaghawa).
The first layer of WA introgression, the seemingly afmd Atlantic West-African variety, would've hypothetically been derived from a much earlier period during the Green-Sahara (NSp 12-5kybp) -- that seems like the most parsimonious explanation since this layer appears to be ubiquitous across all Nilotic pops

Fascinating, that Sahelian signal is completely new to me, dnno how I missed it earlier. Do we know what makes Zaghawa/Nuba more Sahelian-like over Western-Nilotic speakers at higher K?



They would've likely arrived increasingly towards the end of the NSp; when desiccation of the Green Sahara intensified the Nile-Valley and connecting Wadis became their refugia -- prior to that the Middle-Nile-Valley was ecologically considered non-conducive for human occupation

Ahh okay, makes sense. So these population(s) were distinct from their kinfolk in the Horn right, as they'd migrated further west?


Regarding Horner populations lack of WA-affinity despite ironically deriving nearly half of their ancestry from an Ancestral-East-African source, here's (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19046-Blame-it-on-the-Rain-Paleohydrologic-considerations-for-Shaping-African-Substructure&p=624750&viewfull=1#post624750) a previous post attempting to answer the riddle. Imho, we've totally underestimated the physical paleohydrolic barriers of the period and their demographic consequences for pops on either side of the Nile.

I gotta reread that post, will take a look. Agree that we've underestimated a lot. The churning continent indeed.






Which Luo samples are you referring to, the ones currently available on G25? Luos have a pretty wide variation of genetic profiles depending the region/population (Anuak, Acholi, Alur etc), if I recall correctly, their Nilotic affinities had more less a steady cline from South-Sudan down to the Great-Lakes -- which makes sense I guess, considering their fairly recent aggressive expansion

Absolutely, I was just referring to the Luo i.e. Kenyan Jaluo. If these samples have been taken from a city, particularly Nairobi, or even somewhere like Migori, then the proportion of Bantu ancestry makes sense. I have a feeling Jaluo in traditional Luo strongholds like Siyaya County/Nyanza proper would autosomally be at least 70% Dinka-like in ancestry, perhaps similar to you? I have no idea about other Luo groups or have experience with Luo speakers in Uganda, would you say Acholi and Alur would score the same as the Kenyan Luos on G25 in terms of such a heavy proportion of Bantu ? I just realized I completely missed Anuak in the Hollfelder paper, they tucked em in right at the corner lol. A small Sahelian component is apparent and a small Gumuz affinity I'm assuming picked up once migration occurred into Ethiopia...would you say the Shiluk are the 'original' Luo speakers considering the linguistic element, or actually just a cousin of the groups that migrated?

Angoliga
07-15-2020, 01:31 AM
Fascinating, that Sahelian signal is completely new to me, dnno how I missed it earlier. Do we know what makes Zaghawa/Nuba more Sahelian-like over Western-Nilotic speakers at higher K?

Compared to Western-Nilotes, Darfurians and other Sahelians tend to have a higher amount of minor Eurasian affinities and West-Central African ADMIXTURE


I forget the exact quote and the academic who coined it, so I'll just paraphrase: following the dramatic climate changes at the end of the Green Sahara, populations had to choose between their homes or more favourable enviroments for their subsistence strategies


So by that token, I'd interpret the Sahelian component peaking among Darfurians, in contrast to W-Nilotics, as a common population history for those that "hung around" longer in their desiccating environments vs. those that chose more favourable environments i.e. those migrating deep into the Upper-Nile basin (W. Nilotics/Central-Sudanics..) -- that said, it's still ADMIXTURE which can be highly subjective especially on these higher runs, so we should take it with a grain of salt. *there's actually some hidden inconsistencies for this particular Sahelian component




Absolutely, I was just referring to the Luo i.e. Kenyan Jaluo. If these samples have been taken from a city, particularly Nairobi, or even somewhere like Migori, then the proportion of Bantu ancestry makes sense. I have a feeling Jaluo in traditional Luo strongholds like Siyaya County/Nyanza proper would autosomally be at least 70% Dinka-like in ancestry, perhaps similar to you? I have no idea about other Luo groups or have experience with Luo speakers in Uganda, would you say Acholi and Alur would score the same as the Kenyan Luos on G25 in terms of such a heavy proportion of Bantu ? I just realized I completely missed Anuak in the Hollfelder paper, they tucked em in right at the corner lol. A small Sahelian component is apparent and a small Gumuz affinity I'm assuming picked up once migration occurred into Ethiopia

You raise a solid point -- we need more resolution even within self-identified ethnic-groups.
I recall a similar discussion on the forum, one regarding Kenyan Somali samples being mislabeled as Somali proper, and another instance with certain Kenyan ethnic groups not having their region specified -- I think the samples were deemed too "metropolitan" for their given ancestry

I'm a little skeptical of Luo migrations that deep in the Rift-Valley having Dinka-like ancestry in a >70% range. In these runs (Gouveia, 2019 Fig.1) northern Ugandan Acholi, followed by central Ugandan Langi further south, are shown with a steadily decreasing Nilotic-like affinity (~50%). Kenyan Jaluo would've likely had their Dinka affinity even further diluted by the time they reached regional Lake Victoria:

https://i.imgur.com/sPiGyc1.png

Among major migrant populations in the Great-Lakes region, it seems only the Bantu have retained their ancestry anywhere near a 70% range; incoming Nilotic and Cushitic pops have all assimilated Bantu and vice-versa to a large degree




...would you say the Shiluk are the 'original' Luo speakers considering the linguistic element, or actually just a cousin of the groups that migrated?

Not sure tbh, but a more northern South-Sudanese source seems more likely from the few oral-history readings I've come across. Whether the "original" speakers were called Shiluk or whether they broke off from an antecedent group might be more of a challenge to find agreement... thankfully the Luo migration into the Rift-Valley was fairly recent, you'll find many sources online.

Angoliga
07-15-2020, 03:34 AM
My LivingDNA results:


Pretty cool rendering! This is by far the most comprehensive ancestral test for Africans (72 sub-regions) -- can't speak to it's integrity just yet though, we'll need more participants

I got suckered into this out of sheer curiosity for their Nilo-Saharan clusters seen in V2




Full list of over 72 African-sub regions:

North Africa

Algeria
Copt
Egypt
Libya
Mozabite
Northern Morocco
Southern Morocco
Tunisia
Western Sahara
Zenata



West African Niger-Congo

Ajamat
Akan
Bambara
Benin
Esan
Fula
Igbo
Ivory Coast-Ghana
Kassena
Mandinka
Manjak
Mende
Mossi
Serer
Soninke
Wolof
Yòrúba



Central-West African Niger-Congo

Bamum
Cameroon Bantu
Semi-Bantu
Tikar



East African Niger-Congo

Achonyi
Giriama
Kauma-Kambe
Kenya Bantu
Luhya
Malawi Bantu
Somali
Wasambaa
Zigula



East African Nilo-Saharan

Anuak-South Sudanese
Dinka-Nuer-Shilluk
Gemar-Messiria-Zaghawa
Gumuz
Maasai
Nuba



East African Afro-Asiatic

Amhara-Tigray
Batahin
Beni-Amer
Blacksmith Ari
Cultivator Ari
Hadendoa
North Sudan
Oromo
Qafár
Welayta



Central African Hunter-Gatherers

Bayaka
Hadza-Sandawe
Mbuti



Southern African Khoisan

Damara
Hai||om
Ju|'hoansi
Karretjie
Khwe



Southern African Niger-Congo

amaXhosa
Kleurlinge
Kwangali
Mbukushu
Ovambo
Sotho-Tswana
Southeastern Bantu
Southwestern Bantu


V.1
https://i.imgur.com/Uk6vMCA.png


V.1 Observations:

really wish they had more specificity for "East Africa"

sounds kinda funny having an ancestral component named after a cultural region, "Yorubaland" sounds very unscientific and fanciful for a genetic component (maybe I'm just being picky)

curious if other Nilo-Saharan speakers will also get this Atlantic West-African "Mandinka" affinity

guessing "Arabia" is a stand-in here for Natufian-related ancestry?

minor "South-China" was also observed with @Hurricane -- given some of our ancestry is Chad-basin/Central-Sahara, we think it might be some shared deeply-ancient relic/proxy

noticed the same breakdown with my GeseDNA results:


https://i.imgur.com/P3qcTU5.png



V.2
https://i.imgur.com/6pxPnKQ.png


V.2 Observations:


The high "Dinka-Nuer-Shilluk" was a bit of a surprise, I was expecting a sizable amount of Gemar/Zagawa due to higher West-African affinities in Central-Sudanics and ancient migratory ties from the Chad-basin
I suppose the elevated minor Eurasian affinities in modern Darfurians among other nuances in population substructure are canceling them out?
One would've thought the Anuak would've been higher perhaps even swapped in place of Dinka due to their more elevated HG affinities -- apparently not with this calc
Cool seeing Maasai pop up, my maternal side are Kakwa (Eastern Nilotic) though they've been heavily assimilated within Southern-Sudanese/Ugandan Central-Sudanic shifted pops over the past ~400 years
It's too bad -- I really wish we had more participants from the region to gauge the validity of this detection
Luhya here might actually be real Bantu admixture, this would be pretty neat to validate since it's nearly impossible to verify confidently using G25 or with other main-stream admix-renderings (23andMe. Ancestry, FTDNA)
I interpret the even splits among these West-African pops to not actually represent these modern populations -- we'd need ancient West-African pops within and around the lake Chad basin to truly verify WA contribution in CS pops
Neat seeing Mbuti, though I'm not sure where the rest of my HG affinity is being cached





UG_Angoliga scaled
Distance: 1.8661% / 0.01866058

74.0 Dinka
11.4 Yoruba
7.6 KEN_LSA
5.6 Mbuti
1.4 Ju_hoan_North



**Edit: I found 2 peculiar callouts


Apparently under LivingDNA's categorization, the Somali fall under "East African Niger-Congo"
This description is found for the "Semi-Bantu" cluster: The three major groups who speak Semi-Bantu languages in Cameroon are the Bamileke, Bamum, and Tikar. The three groups share many similarities within their cultures and may have come from a common ancestral people in the past. The Bamileke originally migrated to the Cameroon from Egypt during the 13th and 14th centuries. Today, the Cameroon Semi-Bantu people cluster encompasses multiple Bantu ethnic groups, the largest of which is the Bamileke.



Lol!!

ThaYamamoto
07-16-2020, 12:58 AM
Compared to Western-Nilotes, Darfurians and other Sahelians tend to have a higher amount of minor Eurasian affinities and West-Central African ADMIXTURE


I forget the exact quote and the academic who coined it, so I'll just paraphrase: following the dramatic climate changes at the end of the Green Sahara, populations had to choose between their homes or more favourable enviroments for their subsistence strategies


So by that token, I'd interpret the Sahelian component peaking among Darfurians, in contrast to W-Nilotics, as a common population history for those that "hung around" longer in their desiccating environments vs. those that chose more favourable environments i.e. those migrating deep into the Upper-Nile basin (W. Nilotics/Central-Sudanics..) -- that said, it's still ADMIXTURE which can be highly subjective especially on these higher runs, so we should take it with a grain of salt. *there's actually some hidden inconsistencies for this particular Sahelian component





You raise a solid point -- we need more resolution even within self-identified ethnic-groups.
I recall a similar discussion on the forum, one regarding Kenyan Somali samples being mislabeled as Somali proper, and another instance with certain Kenyan ethnic groups not having their region specified -- I think the samples were deemed too "metropolitan" for their given ancestry

I'm a little skeptical of Luo migrations that deep in the Rift-Valley having Dinka-like ancestry in a >70% range. In these runs (Gouveia, 2019 Fig.1) northern Ugandan Acholi, followed by central Ugandan Langi further south, are shown with a steadily decreasing Nilotic-like affinity (~50%). Kenyan Jaluo would've likely had their Dinka affinity even further diluted by the time they reached regional Lake Victoria:

https://i.imgur.com/sPiGyc1.png

Among major migrant populations in the Great-Lakes region, it seems only the Bantu have retained their ancestry anywhere near a 70% range; incoming Nilotic and Cushitic pops have all assimilated Bantu and vice-versa to a large degree





Not sure tbh, but a more northern South-Sudanese source seems more likely from the few oral-history readings I've come across. Whether the "original" speakers were called Shiluk or whether they broke off from an antecedent group might be more of a challenge to find agreement... thankfully the Luo migration into the Rift-Valley was fairly recent, you'll find many sources online.

Okay, I finally get it now. Its difficult keeping up with the intricacies here, not only across established geno-cultural regions, but within them too. I think then that the Sahelian component in this (https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rspb.2014.1448) study corresponds with that in Hollfelder...the dark purplish colour. I can see why it can be a little inconsistent. Really interesting stuff.

Yeah I think that with the massive substructure we've seen within African populations, and then again within sub-groups of said populations, African populations need to be treated with a respect for validity, a couple of self-identified people or rather urban centres/metropolitan areas just won't cut it. You can see here (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6206618/) my original issue with usage of only Bukusu samples to represent Luhyas seem to be validated. Don't know if anyone remembers that though, lol. I kinda liked and disliked the Malaria paper, was great to see populations close to home, but I didn't like their clustering or supervision of the analyses...still some of the Acholi there are scoring 80%+ of the UNW (Lugbara?) component, and as a sister group to the Jaluo in Kenya, I still think its possible certain clans/subgroups make exhibit the same, but I totally understand your scepticism.

Ah okay, a little bit further north perhaps with the Luo homeland. There's a lot to brush up on for me, the reading is long though still lol. Totally off the dome, I'm sure the Acholi and Jaluo split from either one or both of the JaOwiny and JaOmollo but this could be wrong. But yeah I didn't mean to derail your thread my dude. Great chopping it up with you. I'm actually satisfied with my main interest which was that deep WA affinity...now as I understand it, its at such a deep-structural level that it isn't even likely to show up on admixture/modelling?I'm just looking forward to when we finally get some ancient Senegal Valley + Sudan samples to play around wit.

JFWinstone
07-17-2020, 07:34 PM
Kenyan

46% Eastern Bantu Peoples
26% Cameroon, Congo and Southern Bantu Peoples
11% Somalia
9% Southern & Eastern Africa Hunter-Gatherers
8% Ethiopia & Eritrea

ThaYamamoto
07-17-2020, 10:17 PM
Kenyan

46% Eastern Bantu Peoples
26% Cameroon, Congo and Southern Bantu Peoples
11% Somalia
9% Southern & Eastern Africa Hunter-Gatherers
8% Ethiopia & Eritrea

Kikuyu/Kamba/Meru ?

ThaYamamoto
07-20-2020, 01:58 AM
I met a Tanzanian at work yesterday. I like to think I can give a good guess, especially among Africans but I couldn't have been more off from guessing his ethnicity. I could've sworn he was a modern Egyptian but it turns out he's a mixture of Indian, native Tanzanian and Dutch. Maybe he'd be interested in taking a DNA test? It's his first week at the office though, so maybe I'll wait a while longer before I spring the DNA convo :nerd: - I'll give it a few more run-ins at the coffee-break rm:)



Edited: *I forgot to mention, he was born in Dar

This is funny to me cuz I've had Egyptians threaten me that I'm ashamed of being Egyptian lmaoo. Phenotypic crossover always has folks pressed.

ThaYamamoto
07-30-2020, 02:26 AM
Unknown origin West African [?] match on Ancestry. Name gives away nothing, hasn't confirmed origin. Any ideas where she may be from? Some of her components are weird proportionally, but I do remember some Western pops i.e. Malians scoring East Bantu in earlier updates.

Eastern Bantu Peoples: 2%
Cameroon/Congo/Southern Bantu Peoples: 52%
Nigeria: 14%
Benin & Togo: 28%
Mali: 4%

pm if you want a screenshot

ThaYamamoto
08-14-2020, 09:53 PM
Aite seeing as we back up here's some ancestries of my AncestryDNA matches:

Malawi:
Eastern Bantu Peoples : 8%
Cameroon, Congo & Southern Bantu Peoples : 91%
Unknown (not Nigerian): 1%

Congolese - Kinshasa:
Eastern Bantu Peoples: 1%
Cameroon, Congo & Southern Bantu Peoples: 99%

Unknown Central/West African:
Eastern Bantu Peoples:2%
Cameroon/Congo/Southern Bantu Peoples: 52%
Nigeria: 14%
Benin & Togo: 28%
Mali: 4%

1/2 Kenyan Luhya 1/2 Ugandan Musoga:
Eastern Bantu Peoples: 52%
Cameroon, Congo & Southern Bantu Peoples: 47%
Nigeria: 1%

Zimbabwean:
Eastern Bantu Peoples: 22%
Cameroon, Congo & Southern Bantu Peoples: 78%

Zambian:
Eastern Bantu Peoples: 16%
Cameroon, Congo & Southern Bantu Peoples: 84%

Kenyan Luhya [Masaaba]:
Eastern Bantu Peoples: 70%
Cameroon, Congo & Southern Bantu Peoples: 24%
Southern & Eastern Africa Hunter-Gatherers: 6%

Ugandan
Eastern Bantu Peoples: 62%
Cameroon, Congo & Southern Bantu Peoples: 32%
Southern & Eastern Africa Hunter-Gatherers: 6%

Ugandan:
Eastern Bantu Peoples: 60%
Cameroon, Congo & Southern Bantu Peoples: 40%

Seems that Ancestry's Eastern Bantu Peoples cluster is based/peaks in the Greater Nyanza area - same as 23andme's Southern East African cluster far as I can tell.

SWAHILLI_PRINCE16
08-15-2020, 04:49 PM
My DNA relative he is a Mswahili from my city Mombasa

Fourth Cousin on your father's side
Shared DNA
0.21%
16cM

Paternal Haplogroup E-V257
Maternal Haplogroup L3e3


Sub-Saharan African
68.2%

Congolese & Southern East African
54.8%

Southern East African
38.3%
Angolan & Congolese
11.6%
Broadly Congolese & Southern East African
4.9%

Northern East African
4.3%
Sudanese
2.8%
Ethiopian & Eritrean
0.8%
Somali
0.2%
Broadly Northern East African
0.5%

West African
3.5%
Nigerian
2.5%
Ghanaian, Liberian & Sierra Leonean
0.0%
Broadly West African
1.0%
African Hunter-Gatherer
0.2%
Broadly Sub-Saharan African
5.4%

Western Asian & North African
22.9%

Arab, Egyptian & Levantine
19.7%

Peninsular Arab
18.0%
Egyptian
0.5%
Broadly Arab, Egyptian & Levantine
1.2%

Northern West Asian
0.7%
Iranian, Caucasian & Mesopotamian
0.4%
Broadly Northern West Asian
0.3%
Broadly Western Asian & North African
2.5%

Central & South Asian
3.7%

Central Asian, Northern Indian & Pakistani
1.1%

Northern Indian & Pakistani
0.8%
Bengali & Northeast Indian
0.3%
Broadly Central Asian, Northern Indian & Pakistani
0.0%

Southern South Asian
0.6%
Southern Indian & Sri Lankan
0.6%
Broadly Central & South Asian
2.0%

European
1.1%

Northwestern European
0.1%
Broadly Northwestern European
0.1%

Southern European
0.1%
Broadly Southern European
0.1%
Broadly European
0.9%

East Asian & Native American
0.2%

Chinese & Southeast Asian
0.2%

Broadly Chinese & Southeast Asian
0.2%
Broadly East Asian & Native American
0.0%

Unassigned
3.9%

38993

Wangari
08-15-2020, 05:58 PM
Kenyan Luhya [Masaaba]:
Eastern Bantu Peoples: 70%
Cameroon, Congo & Southern Bantu Peoples: 24%
Southern & Eastern Africa Hunter-Gatherers: 6%


Seems that Ancestry's Eastern Bantu Peoples cluster is based/peaks in the Greater Nyanza area - same as 23andme's Southern East African cluster far as I can tell.

That's my observation as well. This match had the highest percentage:

Kisii
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 70%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 22%
S & E Africa HG - 5%
Somalia - 2%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 1%

Kisii border Luo and the Maasai which might explain their minor Cushitic amounts. It would be interesting to see additional Luo and Luhya results.

ThaYamamoto
08-15-2020, 10:08 PM
That's my observation as well. This match had the highest percentage:

Kisii
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 70%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 22%
S & E Africa HG - 5%
Somalia - 2%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 1%

Kisii border Luo and the Maasai which might explain their minor Cushitic amounts. It would be interesting to see additional Luo and Luhya results.

Yes, Kisii are an interesting one I have family married into Kisii folks but I don't know much about them other than being very nice people. Didn't expect the Cushitic influence there but then again in this region, shouldn't ever be a surprise, Maasai being close etc. Double down on more Luo/Luhyas, I expect Bukusu Luhyas to score minor Cushitic - think they intermixed with Nandi folks and probably explains their extra Nilotic affinity. Siyaya/rural Luos would be great to see too. I'd also like to see none-Masaaba/Maragoli/Bukusu Luhyas one day hopefully.

mpatsibihugu89
08-25-2020, 05:52 PM
**reposting**

I thought this would be a good place to post my kenyan relative.I am from Rwanda/Burundi yet I have a kenyan relative. Tutsi "Southeastern African" ancestry may be a component shared with luhya like or proto Luhya eastern bantus. Just that component is older in the region than the Angola& congolese one. Pretty sure they are the reference for that region anyway. I wonder if the extra central bantu ancestry is more recent in the Great Lakes region and Greater East Africa region?! Tutsi on 23andme seem overall to have very minimal "Angola & Congolese". See below my relative on the right and my regional assignment on the left. Thoughts?

39170
39171

Wangari
08-26-2020, 04:02 AM
**reposting**

39170
39171

It's unfortunate that the full scale of the Nilotic ancestry of Luhya (probably similar to that of Luo) is not captured by 23andme or Ancestry.

SWAHILLI_PRINCE16
08-29-2020, 12:24 AM
**reposting**

I thought this would be a good place to post my kenyan relative.I am from Rwanda/Burundi yet I have a kenyan relative. Tutsi "Southeastern African" ancestry may be a component shared with luhya like or proto Luhya eastern bantus. Just that component is older in the region than the Angola& congolese one. Pretty sure they are the reference for that region anyway. I wonder if the extra central bantu ancestry is more recent in the Great Lakes region and Greater East Africa region?! Tutsi on 23andme seem overall to have very minimal "Angola & Congolese". See below my relative on the right and my regional assignment on the left. Thoughts?

39170
39171

On 23andme I get 41.2% Angolan & Congolese + 33.9% South Eastern African i wonder what caused myself to score more Congolese than South Eastern African

My Gencove results

71% Eastern Africa
25% Western Africa
2% Middle East
1% Central Asia
1% Central Africa
39226

Hurricane
09-02-2020, 08:26 AM
My updated ancestrydna results

Old

Nigeria: 25% (19%-38%)
Mali: 21% (0%-34%)
Northern Africa: 20% (20%-38%)
Senegal: 15% (0%-30%)
Middle East: 10% (3%-13%)
Cameroon, Congo & Southern Bantu Peoples: 5% (0%-11%)
Ethiopia & Eritrea: 4% (0%-10%)

New

Nigeria: 24% (5%-38%)
Mali: 17% (0%-34%)
Ethiopia: 17% (0-33%)
North Africa: 16% (1%-43%)
Senegal: 12% (0%-50%)
Cameroon/Congo: 6% (0%-15%)
Somalia: 3% (0%-13%)
Arabia/Levant: 3% (0%-3%)
Ivory coast/Ghana: 1% (0%-8%)
East Africa: 1% (0%-11%)

SWAHILLI_PRINCE16
09-02-2020, 04:52 PM
My updated ancestrydna results

Old

Nigeria: 25% (19%-38%)
Mali: 21% (0%-34%)
Northern Africa: 20% (20%-38%)
Senegal: 15% (0%-30%)
Middle East: 10% (3%-13%)
Cameroon, Congo & Southern Bantu Peoples: 5% (0%-11%)
Ethiopia & Eritrea: 4% (0%-10%)

New

Nigeria: 24% (5%-38%)
Mali: 17% (0%-34%)
Ethiopia: 17% (0-33%)
North Africa: 16% (1%-43%)
Senegal: 12% (0%-50%)
Cameroon/Congo: 6% (0%-15%)
Somalia: 3% (0%-13%)
Arabia/Levant: 3% (0%-3%)
Ivory coast/Ghana: 1% (0%-8%)
East Africa: 1% (0%-11%)

What do you think about your updated results, would you say it is a disappointment or an improvement? 23andme is also giving hints of another update v5.9 the new testers are receiving the update first from what iv'e seen so lets hope for an improvement.

:beerchug: source https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/il5ovo/new_results_from_v59/

SWAHILLI_PRINCE16
09-02-2020, 05:17 PM
Oromo

https://youtu.be/rR8XoCfdp38


https://youtu.be/hyoRPNwO6VY

Ethiopian

https://youtu.be/ebftse83ICc

Tanzanian

https://youtu.be/EnG-K4qqcKI

Somali

https://youtu.be/tm6DRblMHS0

Cameroonian

https://youtu.be/s0IJSpz1Qkg

Moroccan

https://youtu.be/bDOOiAQTFrk

Hurricane
09-03-2020, 09:51 AM
What do you think about your updated results, would you say it is a disappointment or an improvement? 23andme is also giving hints of another update v5.9 the new testers are receiving the update first from what iv'e seen so lets hope for an improvement.

:beerchug: source https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/il5ovo/new_results_from_v59/

I'm confused. I dont know if its for the better or the worse.

Atlas
09-03-2020, 10:53 AM
You may be able to see the V5.9 update from your newest relatives' results, as I have, but none of my African relatives have had the update so far. From what I can see, it looks to be cutting down on "broadly xyz" categories- I saw a rather impressive breakdown from a new relative in which 51% out of their 51.2% WANA was entirely Levantine. I don't know how the update will impact African results, but hopefully we will see similar precision.

Wangari
09-03-2020, 04:09 PM
The upcoming Ancestry update (see preview here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?21568-New-update-coming-soon-preview-your-results-here!)) is such a disappointment for some East and Central Africans. I had hoped to see a Sudanese (Nilotic) component similar to 23andme or even the current somewhat mislabeled "hunter gatherer".

Here is the link to the official white paper with all of the new regions and reference sample stats: Ancestry White Paper (https://www.ancestrycdn.com/dna/static/pdf/whitepapers/Ethnicity2020_white%20paper.pdf)

Wangari
09-16-2020, 08:12 AM
Here are some of my interesting Ancestry matches with the latest update. I've highlighted some numbers that show some drastic changes that appear to make little sense - especially in the second Kalenjin (see below):


ZAMBIA
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 9%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 91%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 8%
Southern Bantu - 25%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 67%

ZIMBABWE
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 18%
Cameroon, Congo & Southern Bantu Peoples - 82%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 3%
Southern Bantu - 50%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 47%


UGANDA:
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 50%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 49%
S & E Africa HG - 1%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 53%
Southern Bantu - 1%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 46%

UGANDA
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 57%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 43%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 55%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 45%


RWANDA
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 38%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 21%
Somalia - 19%
S & E Africa HG - 13%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 8%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 51%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 7%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 29%
Somalia - 6%


LUO
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 69%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 24%
S & E Africa HG - 5%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 1%
Nigeria - 1%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 81%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 18%
Khoisan, Aka & Mbuti Peoples - 1%


KISII:
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 70%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 22%
S & E Africa HG - 5%
Somalia - 2%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 1%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 88%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 12%

KISII:
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 64%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 22%
S & E Africa HG - 7%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 4%
Somalia - 3%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 86%
Southern Bantu - 4%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 7%
Khoisan, Aka & Mbuti Peoples - 3%


SWAHILI/MIJIKENDA:
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 53%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 42%
S & E Africa HG - 3%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 1%
Somalia - 1%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 51%
Southern Bantu - 20%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 29%


MAASAI:
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 48%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 16%
S & E Africa HG - 14%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 14%
Somalia - 7%
Nigeria - 1%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 51%
Southern Bantu - 11%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 7%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 11%
Somalia - 9%
Khoisan, Aka & Mbuti Peoples - 11%

MAASAI:
2019 update:
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 25%
S & E Africa HG - 25%
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 24%
Somalia - 6%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 4%
Something is missing*

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 35%
Southern Bantu - 2%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 3%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 27%
Somalia - 27%
Khoisan, Aka & Mbuti Peoples - 6%


KALENJIN:
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 47%
S & E Africa HG - 25%
Somalia - 11%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 9%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 8%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 63%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 3%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 15%
Somalia - 7%
Khoisan, Aka & Mbuti Peoples - 10%
Senegal - 1%
Nigeria - 1%

KALENJIN:
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 68%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 18%
S & E Africa HG - 10%
Somalia - 2%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 1%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 94% (what!)
Southern Bantu - 1%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 5%


MERU:
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 46%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 24%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 15%
S & E Africa HG - 9%
Somalia - 6%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 50%
Southern Bantu - 13%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 14%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 14%
Mali - 1%
Khoisan, Aka & Mbuti Peoples - 8%

MERU:
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 52%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 23%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 9%
S & E Africa HG - 8%
Somalia - 8%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 66%
Southern Bantu - 16%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 8%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 9%
Somalia - 1%


EMBU:
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 53%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 35%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 5%
S & E Africa HG - 4%
Somalia - 3%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 45%
Southern Bantu - 24%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 26%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 3%
Khoisan, Aka & Mbuti Peoples - 2%

Hurricane
09-16-2020, 04:39 PM
One of my newest matches. Possibly from Chad or Northern Nigeria.

https://i.imgur.com/lhXVeLN.png

UPDATED
https://i.imgur.com/6bLUfbk.png

ThaYamamoto
09-16-2020, 05:06 PM
Here are some of my interesting Ancestry matches with the latest update. I've highlighted some numbers that show some drastic changes that appear to make little sense - especially in the second Kalenjin (see below):


ZAMBIA
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 9%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 91%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 8%
Southern Bantu - 25%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 67%

ZIMBABWE
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 18%
Cameroon, Congo & Southern Bantu Peoples - 82%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 3%
Southern Bantu - 50%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 47%


UGANDA:
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 50%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 49%
S & E Africa HG - 1%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 53%
Southern Bantu - 1%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 46%

UGANDA
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 57%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 43%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 55%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 45%


RWANDA
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 38%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 21%
Somalia - 19%
S & E Africa HG - 13%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 8%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 51%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 7%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 29%
Somalia - 6%


LUO
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 69%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 24%
S & E Africa HG - 5%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 1%
Nigeria - 1%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 81%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 18%
Khoisan, Aka & Mbuti Peoples - 1%


KISII:
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 70%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 22%
S & E Africa HG - 5%
Somalia - 2%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 1%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 88%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 12%

KISII:
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 64%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 22%
S & E Africa HG - 7%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 4%
Somalia - 3%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 86%
Southern Bantu - 4%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 7%
Khoisan, Aka & Mbuti Peoples - 3%


SWAHILI/MIJIKENDA:
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 53%
Cameroon, Congo & S Bantu - 42%
S & E Africa HG - 3%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 1%
Somalia - 1%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 51%
Southern Bantu - 20%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 29%


MAASAI:
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 48%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 16%
S & E Africa HG - 14%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 14%
Somalia - 7%
Nigeria - 1%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 51%
Southern Bantu - 11%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 7%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 11%
Somalia - 9%
Khoisan, Aka & Mbuti Peoples - 11%

MAASAI:
2019 update:
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 25%
S & E Africa HG - 25%
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 24%
Somalia - 6%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 4%
Something is missing*

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 35%
Southern Bantu - 2%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 3%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 27%
Somalia - 27%
Khoisan, Aka & Mbuti Peoples - 6%


KALENJIN:
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 47%
S & E Africa HG - 25%
Somalia - 11%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 9%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 8%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 63%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 3%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 15%
Somalia - 7%
Khoisan, Aka & Mbuti Peoples - 10%
Senegal - 1%
Nigeria - 1%

KALENJIN:
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 68%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 18%
S & E Africa HG - 10%
Somalia - 2%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 1%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 94% (what!)
Southern Bantu - 1%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 5%


MERU:
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 46%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 24%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 15%
S & E Africa HG - 9%
Somalia - 6%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 50%
Southern Bantu - 13%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 14%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 14%
Mali - 1%
Khoisan, Aka & Mbuti Peoples - 8%

MERU:
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 52%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 23%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 9%
S & E Africa HG - 8%
Somalia - 8%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 66%
Southern Bantu - 16%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 8%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 9%
Somalia - 1%


EMBU:
2019 update:
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 53%
Cameroon, Congo & Bantu - 35%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 5%
S & E Africa HG - 4%
Somalia - 3%

2020 update:
Eastern Bantu - 45%
Southern Bantu - 24%
Cameroon, Congo & Western Bantu - 26%
Ethiopia & Eritrea - 3%
Khoisan, Aka & Mbuti Peoples - 2%

Yeah not a great update for Africans at all, but the same thing will continue with 23andme and other commercial tests- - a full shift toward artificial clusters. I was having a conversation with my brother who is a computer scientist but with no interest in genetics. He can't believe the amount of faith we put into statistical algorithms that are governed by random values.

On another note the Eastern Bantu cluster is ridiculous, seems to blend heavy Nilotic, Bantu and Cushitic affinities. Granted, many populations in the region are a mix of these components as we know - changes are likely to go further backward still. What's funny is that most Southern Bantu speakers descend from Great Lakes populations but relying on modern artificial clusters brings us to this point. I think for most commercial customers though, there isn't a problem...when admix components were broader, the average user was always left confused. Now when an Ethiopian scores 100% African, it seems to be the preferred result going by reddit standards etc. Maybe one day commercial companies will have two reports, the current methodology and perhaps a Deep Ancestral report, 'deep' by layman standards of course.

Deftextra
09-17-2020, 12:44 AM
39646


The new ancestry update is probably the worst results I have come across. Me and many of my cousins are now mostly a mix between Ethiopian and Somali. I score 57% Ethiopian&Eritreans, the largest single component I have ever scored in similar calculators. I know I plot closest to Ethiopian populations, but that is likely because of my Somali + West-Asian ancestry mix, and even If I do have minor Ethiopian ancestry, the percentage is just to large.

drobbah
09-17-2020, 02:07 AM
39646


The new ancestry update is probably the worst results I have come across. Me and many of my cousins are now mostly a mix between Ethiopian and Somali. I score 57% Ethiopian&Eritreans, the largest single component I have ever scored in similar calculators. I know I plot closest to Ethiopian populations, but that is likely because of my Somali + West-Asian ancestry mix, and even If I do have minor Ethiopian ancestry, the percentage is just to large.
The Somali component actually improved lol, it is indeed very strange for your results to get worse. I think they need to add a Southern Benadir component and breakdown the "Ethiopian/Eritrean" component with a Abysinnian component and a Oromo component.

Deftextra
09-17-2020, 11:51 AM
The Somali component actually improved lol, it is indeed very strange for your results to get worse. I think they need to add a Southern Benadir component and breakdown the "Ethiopian/Eritrean" component with a Abysinnian component and a Oromo component.

Yeah, I thought I might be related to the Somali component, but my Somali matches are now scoring 98% 99% Somali.

JFWinstone
09-19-2020, 02:23 PM
Updated results for some of my mum's matches, I don't have the 2019 ones to compare unfortunately.



Malagasy - CR (Merina)

Southeast Asia 29
Southern Philippines 20
Northern Philippines 19
Southern Bantu Peoples 15
Eastern Bantu Peoples 10
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 7

Malagasy - AR (Merina)

Southeast Asia 31
Southern Philippines 22
Southern Bantu Peoples 18
Northern Philippines 16
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 9
Eastern Bantu Peoples 4

Malagasy - MR (Merina)

Southeast Asia 36
Southern Philippines 16
Southern Bantu Peoples 16
Northern Philippines 16
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 12
Eastern Bantu Peoples 3
Turkey & the Caucasus 1

Malagasy - RR (Merina)

Southeast Asia 29
Southern Bantu Peoples 21
Northern Philippines 20
Southern Philippines 13
Eastern Bantu Peoples 9
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 5

Malagasy - RP (Merina)

Southeast Asia 34
Northern Philippines 17
Southern Bantu Peoples 17
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 15
Southern Philippines 14
Eastern Bantu Peoples 3

Malagasy - MD (Merina)

Northern Philippines 29
Southeast Asia 29
Southern Philippines 16
Southern Bantu Peoples 14
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 7
Eastern Bantu Peoples 5

Malagasy - MiR (Merina)

Southeast Asia 29
Northern Philippines 21
Southern Philippines 21
Southern Bantu Peoples 16
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 8
Eastern Bantu Peoples 5

Malagasy - SA (Merina)

Southeast Asia 34
Northern Philippines 24
Southern Philippines 15
Southern Bantu Peoples 15
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 9
Eastern Bantu Peoples 3

Malagasy - JR (Merina)

Southern Bantu Peoples 24
Southeast Asia 21
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 19
Southern Philippines 14
Northern Philippines 11
Eastern Bantu Peoples 11

Malagasy - HR (Merina)

Southeast Asia 32
Northern Philippines 27
Southern Bantu Peoples 15
Southern Philippines 13
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 7
Eastern Bantu Peoples 4
Khoisan, Aka & Mbuti Peoples 1
Guam 1

Malagasy - AM (Merina)

Southeast Asia 31
Northern Philippines 26
Southern Bantu Peoples 16
Southern Philippines 9
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 8
Eastern Bantu Peoples 10

Zimbabwe - CSH

Southern Bantu Peoples 45
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 41
Eastern Bantu Peoples 14

Kenyan - Maragoli

Eastern Bantu Peoples 100

Zimbabwe - EM

Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 46
Southern Bantu Peoples 42
Eastern Bantu Peoples 12

Ugandan - LK

Eastern Bantu Peoples 53
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 45
Southern Bantu Peoples 2

Kenyan - JL

Eastern Bantu Peoples 71
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 23
Southern Bantu Peoples 3
Somalia 2
Ethiopia & Eritrea 1

Zimbabwe - PM

Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 46
Southern Bantu Peoples 46
Eastern Bantu Peoples 8

Ugandan - FL

Southern Bantu Peoples 55
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 39
Eastern Bantu Peoples 6

South African - AZ

Southern Bantu Peoples 49
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 41
Eastern Bantu Peoples 10

Kenyan - WM

Eastern Bantu Peoples 48
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 20
Southern Bantu Peoples 16
Ethiopia & Eritrea 9
Somalia 7

Botswana - BK

Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 52
Southern Bantu Peoples 44
Khoisan, Aka & Mbuti Peoples 3
Nigeria 1

Don Felipe
09-19-2020, 10:41 PM
Based on the updated results for 135 African AncestryDNA testers from 34 countries I have been surveying.

See also:Ancestry’s new African Breakdown: merely cosmetic changes? (https://tracingafricanroots.wordpress.com/2020/09/19/ancestrys-new-african-breakdown-merely-cosmetic-changes/)

https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2020/09/afro-stats.png

Alfa
09-21-2020, 11:00 PM
Based on the updated results for 135 African AncestryDNA testers from 34 countries I have been surveying.

See also:Ancestry’s new African Breakdown: merely cosmetic changes? (https://tracingafricanroots.wordpress.com/2020/09/19/ancestrys-new-african-breakdown-merely-cosmetic-changes/)

https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2020/09/afro-stats.png

Well, I dont know what to think of this update. AncestryDna 2020 update is the worse I have seen. It seems like a big junk of nilotes_South-cushite admixtures are being compounded in this Eastern Bantoue. Now, Nilotic can't have their own cluster? Feel bad for Great Lakes folks especially Nilotes and Nilotes_ Cushites.

gihanga.rwanda
09-22-2020, 12:20 AM
Updated results for some of my mum's matches, I don't have the 2019 ones to compare unfortunately.



Malagasy - CR (Merina)

Southeast Asia 29
Southern Philippines 20
Northern Philippines 19
Southern Bantu Peoples 15
Eastern Bantu Peoples 10
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 7

Malagasy - AR (Merina)

Southeast Asia 31
Southern Philippines 22
Southern Bantu Peoples 18
Northern Philippines 16
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 9
Eastern Bantu Peoples 4

Malagasy - MR (Merina)

Southeast Asia 36
Southern Philippines 16
Southern Bantu Peoples 16
Northern Philippines 16
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 12
Eastern Bantu Peoples 3
Turkey & the Caucasus 1

Malagasy - RR (Merina)

Southeast Asia 29
Southern Bantu Peoples 21
Northern Philippines 20
Southern Philippines 13
Eastern Bantu Peoples 9
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 5

Malagasy - RP (Merina)

Southeast Asia 34
Northern Philippines 17
Southern Bantu Peoples 17
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 15
Southern Philippines 14
Eastern Bantu Peoples 3

Malagasy - MD (Merina)

Northern Philippines 29
Southeast Asia 29
Southern Philippines 16
Southern Bantu Peoples 14
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 7
Eastern Bantu Peoples 5

Malagasy - MiR (Merina)

Southeast Asia 29
Northern Philippines 21
Southern Philippines 21
Southern Bantu Peoples 16
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 8
Eastern Bantu Peoples 5

Malagasy - SA (Merina)

Southeast Asia 34
Northern Philippines 24
Southern Philippines 15
Southern Bantu Peoples 15
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 9
Eastern Bantu Peoples 3

Malagasy - JR (Merina)

Southern Bantu Peoples 24
Southeast Asia 21
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 19
Southern Philippines 14
Northern Philippines 11
Eastern Bantu Peoples 11

Malagasy - HR (Merina)

Southeast Asia 32
Northern Philippines 27
Southern Bantu Peoples 15
Southern Philippines 13
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 7
Eastern Bantu Peoples 4
Khoisan, Aka & Mbuti Peoples 1
Guam 1

Malagasy - AM (Merina)

Southeast Asia 31
Northern Philippines 26
Southern Bantu Peoples 16
Southern Philippines 9
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 8
Eastern Bantu Peoples 10

Zimbabwe - CSH

Southern Bantu Peoples 45
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 41
Eastern Bantu Peoples 14

Kenyan - Maragoli

Eastern Bantu Peoples 100

Zimbabwe - EM

Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 46
Southern Bantu Peoples 42
Eastern Bantu Peoples 12

Ugandan - LK

Eastern Bantu Peoples 53
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 45
Southern Bantu Peoples 2

Kenyan - JL

Eastern Bantu Peoples 71
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 23
Southern Bantu Peoples 3
Somalia 2
Ethiopia & Eritrea 1

Zimbabwe - PM

Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 46
Southern Bantu Peoples 46
Eastern Bantu Peoples 8

Ugandan - FL

Southern Bantu Peoples 55
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 39
Eastern Bantu Peoples 6

South African - AZ

Southern Bantu Peoples 49
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 41
Eastern Bantu Peoples 10

Kenyan - WM

Eastern Bantu Peoples 48
Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 20
Southern Bantu Peoples 16
Ethiopia & Eritrea 9
Somalia 7

Botswana - BK

Cameroon, Congo and Western Bantu Peoples 52
Southern Bantu Peoples 44
Khoisan, Aka & Mbuti Peoples 3
Nigeria 1


It looks like this group of Merina is consistently ~30% Bantu and 70% Austronesian with only exception who’s a little over 50% Bantu. Do you think this points to internal diversity within the Merina or recent admixture from a more “African” Malagasy tribe in the genealogy of this individual? I’d assume the latter since the other Merina are pretty homogeneous.

Hurricane
09-22-2020, 06:59 PM
2017
https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/1057594130/MYUPDFTDNA2017.png
2020
https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/1057594130/FTDNA/MYFTDNA2020.png

mpatsibihugu89
09-22-2020, 07:56 PM
[Deleted]

Deftextra
09-22-2020, 09:44 PM
Family Tree update:
39745

Don Felipe
09-23-2020, 02:31 PM
Well, I dont know what to think of this update. AncestryDna 2020 update is the worse I have seen. It seems like a big junk of nilotes_South-cushite admixtures are being compounded in this Eastern Bantoue. Now, Nilotic can't have their own cluster? Feel bad for Great Lakes folks especially Nilotes and Nilotes_ Cushites.

Hmm, for me the 2018 update disaster still tops everything lol. But of course anyone's opinion will mostly be dependent on their own specific background. Across the board and judging from my before & after surveys I would say there has been an gradual improvement of predictive accuracy. But again in individual cases this will be correlated with how well you happen to compare with the samples contained within Ancestry's Reference Panel. Which indeed does not seem to have any Nilotic nor Chadic samples yet.


The new "Southern Bantu" region received a robust number of new samples. Most likely South Africans. But also for West Africa and East Africa new samples have been added. So again I do not think things have become worse. But it is becoming increasingly frustrating when you are aware that Ancestry is able to do so much more! Also incl. their genetic community tool.

https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2020/09/reference-panel-african.png

Hurricane
09-23-2020, 06:26 PM
2017
https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/1057594130/MumFTDNA2017.png

2020
https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/1057594130/FTDNA/HFTDNA2020.png

Hurricane
09-23-2020, 06:26 PM
2017
https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/1057594130/DadFTDNA2017.png

2020
https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/1057594130/FTDNA/HISFTDNA2020.png

JFWinstone
09-23-2020, 09:46 PM
It looks like this group of Merina is consistently ~30% Bantu and 70% Austronesian with only exception who’s a little over 50% Bantu. Do you think this points to internal diversity within the Merina or recent admixture from a more “African” Malagasy tribe in the genealogy of this individual? I’d assume the latter since the other Merina are pretty homogeneous.

I think the one who was a little over 50% Bantu may have been 3/4 Merina, 1/4 coastal Malagasy not sure the tribe. Still waiting for a reply.

Omaar
09-24-2020, 06:14 AM
Family Tree update:
39745
Mine is simple.

Africa 100%

Horn of Africa 99%

-Eritrea, Northern Ethiopia & Somalia 99%

Eastern Sahel 1%

-Nile River Basin 1% B)

NetNomad
09-24-2020, 10:20 AM
Mine is simple.

Africa 100%

Horn of Africa 99%

-Eritrea, Northern Ethiopia & Somalia 99%

Eastern Sahel 1%

-Nile River Basin 1% B)


Are they even using Habeshas in the ''Eritrea, Northern Ethiopia & Somalia'' cluster?

Seems kind of strange they split up ''Eritrea, Northern Ethiopia & Somalia'' and ''South Ethiopia'', but left Somalis in the first group. They should make three Horn of Africa clusters in my opinion. A Habesha one, an Omotic one, and a Somali one.

Alfa
09-24-2020, 10:49 PM
Hmm, for me the 2018 update disaster still tops everything lol. But of course anyone's opinion will mostly be dependent on their own specific background. Across the board and judging from my before & after surveys I would say there has been an gradual improvement of predictive accuracy. But again in individual cases this will be correlated with how well you happen to compare with the samples contained within Ancestry's Reference Panel. Which indeed does not seem to have any Nilotic nor Chadic samples yet.


The new "Southern Bantu" region received a robust number of new samples. Most likely South Africans. But also for West Africa and East Africa new samples have been added. So again I do not think things have become worse. But it is becoming increasingly frustrating when you are aware that Ancestry is able to do so much more! Also incl. their genetic community tool.

https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2020/09/reference-panel-african.png

Perhaps, Ancestry Reference Panel lacks Nilotic samples. I also noticed Rwanda is included in AncestryDna reference Panel, so for Rwanda/Burundi/Uganda the results make sense, but improvement is needed. But for Nilotic/cushitic admixed Bantoue and Cushitic admixed Nilotes, will see improvement once Ancestry Reference has Nilotic samples.

And for Rwanda/Burundi/South Uganda, I am afraid the Ancestry Dna results for them will look more like 23andme when Nilotic is added. So basically, we are going in circle. 23andme still better for some Rwanda/Burundi, as it is able to allocate a cluster to a region South Province, Rwanda.

See a rwandese results below
39810

See on this person results, on his South East Africa %,
23andme specifically states South Province, Rwanda.

It looks like AncestryDna is doing Geographical clusters.
It woukd be better if they specify which country in Eastern Bantoue cluster a person belongs to.

I would like the Eritrea_Ethiopia_Somalia clusters to disappear for Rwanda/Burundi, and replaced by Geographical cluster. Example, 2 Rwanda/Burundi results on FamilyTree DNA
39811

You can see within East Africa, they have 1 geographical cluster" Western Lake Victoria Basin" which which has Rwanda, South Uganda/Uganda.

This is how FamilyTreeDna explain Western Lake Victoria Basin cluster
39812

Rwanda/Burundi score predominently Western Lake Victoria Basin with average of 2-15% Eastern Lake Victoria Basin. But Kenyan, they score predominently Eastern Lake Victoria Basin. I find FamilyTreeDna for Burundi/Rwanda Kenya very good.

Don Felipe
09-25-2020, 11:15 AM
23andme still better for some Rwanda/Burundi, as it is able to allocate a cluster to a region South Province, Rwanda.
[...]
23andme specifically states South Province, Rwanda.
[...]
It looks like AncestryDna is doing Geographical clusters.
It woukd be better if they specify which country in Eastern Bantoue cluster a person belongs to.


Indeed! 23andme's so-called Recent Ancestor Location tool is usually quite accurate and very useful therefore for further specification! Ancestry's Genetic Community is a similar tool, based on matching strength. But right now Ancestry only provides 4 Genetic Communities within Africa (Morocco/Algeria; Cape Verdeans; South African Asians and South African Europeans). While I think 23anme has about 18 of them on country level. While often providing even finer resolution on provincial or statelevel within those 18 countries!

I think it is obvious Ancestry needs to expand these genetic communities all over the continent quickly! Because relying only on regional admixture is clearly not going to get you any further at this stage...




I find FamilyTreeDna for Burundi/Rwanda Kenya very good.

How many East Africans do you think have tested/uploaded on FTDNA right now?

SWAHILLI_PRINCE16
09-25-2020, 02:30 PM
A Comorian's MyOrigins 3.0 results

https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/ixrj9k/myorigins_30_update_comorian/

88% Africa
9% Asia
3% Middle East

Espoir
09-27-2020, 07:34 PM
My FTDNA 2020 update.

39878

It’s bad for people like me! But I believe if they can fine tune West-East Victoria cluster( and other wanky one), they would be with some of the best clusters from commercial companies. I mean, if a Ugandan Bantu would score <90% West victoria, they would have nailed it.

In general, I like the new African clusters they got.

drobbah
10-01-2020, 03:59 AM
Found a Harari relative on 23&me! He's 95% Ethio/Eritrean, 0.2% West African (probably from the Arabs), 2% Peninsular Arab, and minor South Asian & East Asian.

39931

Awale
10-01-2020, 09:16 AM
Found a Harari relative on 23&me! He's 98% Ethio/Eritrean, 0.2% West African (probably from the Arabs), 2% Peninsular Arab, and minor South Asian & East Asian.

Welcome to the club, abowe. I have a Harari relative too. If memory serves me right, he was like 1/4th South Asian with the Y-DNA R1a (Pakistani grandpa, I believe) but I don't recall him giving me an exact subclade. His Horner side looked looked more Habesha but I think he appeared partly Somali too. I also saw another Harari I wasn't related to and he appeared Tigrinya-like. It's all very interesting, tbh. If you read Richard F. Burton's book (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2ARnUeK-Y8Wc0JBM2lLbzJ4WHc/view?usp=sharing) you realize, at least during the early modern era, the connections between Somalis and Hararis were always pretty deep. Their Emir's first wife was the daughter of a local Somali chieftain and one of his leading Sheikhs, Sheikh Jami, was Somali as well. Not to mention, as I know you're aware, Somali port-towns like Berbera and Zeila alongside the nomadic clans along the trade routes between Harar and these port-towns pretty much had Harar by the balls in terms of trade. Another fun fact people don't tend to know is that there were even Harari members in the Somali Youth League (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_Youth_League).

If you assume the "Harla" really were ancestral Hararis and that the sorts of dynamics above were around as far back as the 1500s then our ties to these folks go pretty deep and I wouldn't be surprised if you and I aren't the only Somalis with Harari relatives.

GabrielZelalem
10-01-2020, 12:44 PM
I have few Harari relatives on 23andme and they all have some Somali ancestry (as high as 15%). They also matched with other somali relatives I have. And one of my full Amhara relative matched with two of them too. I’m very surprised that Drobbah’s match has no Somali admixture tbh ! I thought all Hararis would, turns out to be wrong !

drobbah
10-01-2020, 02:42 PM
I have few Harari relatives on 23andme and they all have some Somali ancestry (as high as 15%). They also matched with other somali relatives I have. And one of my full Amhara relative matched with two of them too. I’m very surprised that Drobbah’s match has no Somali admixture tbh ! I thought all Hararis would, turns out to be wrong !
Both my father and I get pure Ethio matches, oddly enough most of them are Habesha (Tigray,Amhara etc) and only seen one Oromo match for my dad.I do have more Mota ancestry than most regular Somalis and so does my father despite our basal levels of SSA/MENA being well within Somali range.

Here's the Hararis results:
39947

NetNomad
10-02-2020, 01:05 PM
Found a Harari relative on 23&me! He's 95% Ethio/Eritrean, 0.2% West African (probably from the Arabs), 2% Peninsular Arab, and minor South Asian & East Asian.

39931

I got a Harari as well, but with even more exotic results:


mtDNA L3b1a2 (https://yfull.com/mtree/L3b1a2/) (Nile Valley/East African version of L3b)
Y-DNA G-L1324 (https://yfull.com/tree/G-L1324/)

https://i.imgur.com/4PQCw2t.png

drobbah
10-02-2020, 10:13 PM
I got a Harari as well, but with even more exotic results:


mtDNA L3b1a2 (https://yfull.com/mtree/L3b1a2/) (Nile Valley/East African version of L3b)
Y-DNA G-L1324 (https://yfull.com/tree/G-L1324/)

https://i.imgur.com/4PQCw2t.png
Perhaps he's a descendant of Ottoman reinforcements (canons) for the Imam lol or the Ottoman Egyptian conquest of Harar in the late 1880s.

The paternal haplogroup and S.European does kinda make sense in that context plus I met a couple Hararis here in Toronto (tons of them here) who claim to have Turkish origins and by their phenotype you can tell they have more than just the regular Ethio-Semitic admixture.

Espoir
10-04-2020, 07:16 AM
I also used this company called 24genetics (http://24genetics.com/en/health) and here is my results.
weird!!
39997
39998
39999
40000

I don’t know what reference is used for Rwanda but according to my history, I would expect something like <90% Rwanda

Alfa
10-04-2020, 01:07 PM
I also used this company called 24genetics (http://24genetics.com/en/health) and here is my results.
weird!!
39997
39998
39999
40000

I don’t know what reference is used for Rwanda but according to my history, I would expect something like <90% Rwanda

They obviously have Rwanda in their reference panel or perhaps, their reference panel is not good enough. But what I noticed for most of these commercial DNA companies like 23andme/Ancestrydna/Ftdna/24genetics..., they are all having hard time getting rid of Somalia/Ethio_Eritrea/Sudan(trace of cushitic ancestry) for Rwandans/Burundians, and for other Great Lakes Cushitic admixed ethnics groups.
Does anyone more knowledgeable know why is that these companies are unable to get rid of the Somali/Ethio_Eritrea for some Great Lakes ethnic groups.
Is it due to our Natufians like admixtures causing this issue?

I know someone who was told by Tishkoff that these commercials DNA companies results are not reliable or accurate.

gihanga.rwanda
10-04-2020, 04:58 PM
They obviously have Rwanda in their reference panel or perhaps, their reference panel is not good enough. But what I noticed for most of these commercial DNA companies like 23andme/Ancestrydna/Ftdna/24genetics..., they are all having hard time getting rid of Somalia/Ethio_Eritrea/Sudan(trace of cushitic ancestry) for Rwandans/Burundians, and for other Great Lakes Cushitic admixed ethnics groups.
Does anyone more knowledgeable know why is that these companies are unable to get rid of the Somali/Ethio_Eritrea for some Great Lakes ethnic groups.
Is it due to our Natufians like admixtures causing this issue?

I know someone who was told by Tishkoff that these commercials DNA companies results are not reliable or accurate.

These results are picking up on the fact that Tutsis have excess NE African ancestry compared to other East African Bantus, including Hutus who have some of this ancestry but not nearly as much.

Angoliga
10-04-2020, 07:39 PM
Here's my Ancestry update along with a South-Sudanese match (Dinka?) and a fellow N/Western-Ugandan:

https://i.imgur.com/rHAWJgD.png

https://i.imgur.com/MZKAnM1.png



Funny how there's still no Nilotic/Nilo-Saharan cluster. I'm seriously considering starting a petition as our HOA contemporaries have done. These ancestral interpretations aren't a big deal for most on the forum since we have other means of verifying the genetic data, but it's really an abomination for most commercial customers who don't have any other means of interpreting their data.... imagine a recent South-Sudanese customer trying to reconcile being nearly 50% "Khoisan, Aka & Mbuti Peoples".

Aside from that, it's interesting to note modern-day Chad is geographically part of their "Mali" cluster even though not noted as a "Primary location" (Burkina Faso, Guinea, Sierra Leone, Cote D'Ivoire, and Mali itself).






FTDNA updated results (*haven't any matches unfortunately):
https://i.imgur.com/mHI6mn7.png


The HG-splits are interesting, I think there might be difficulty rendering the embedded ancient Mbuti-like affinity within assimilated NW-Ugandan HGs. Perhaps it's akin to these odd West-African splits, for Ugandan Central-Sudanics, I think that might be an attempt to capture "pre-bantu"-like affinities in and around the southern Lake Chad basin -- funny how there's Ivorian, Ghanian & Co but no Nigerian?

I recall seeing East-African Bantu affinities in the same range for NW-Ugandans using ADMIXTURE , I think this might be actual Bantu ancestry i.e. West-Africa affinities introgressed within the Great-Lakes region as opposed to Central/West-Africa proper.

Their "Nile Basin" and "Eastern African Savanah" sub-categories seem unnecessary within the "East Sahel" cluster, I wish they would've just used a Nilotic/AEA cluster -- something to that effect... I'm noticing immediate family-members with results within these categories varying by over +- 15% despite being derived from the same biological parents, so these new East-African categories seem to be adding more confusion than clarity atm --- would be interesting to see how Kenyan Nilo-Saharan speakers fare (Masaii and the likes).




I do like their description for the "Nile Basin" cluster, this pretty much epitomizes Ugandan Central-Sudanic speakers and Nilotes proper (Shuliuk, Dinka, Nuer) *although likely to a much lesser extent:



"....The Nilo-Saharan language family arose in eastern Sudan. Due to cultural and population shifts in the region, Nilo-Sahran speakers migrated westward to Lake Chad and southward into southern Sudan."

Espoir
10-05-2020, 05:27 AM
These results are picking up on the fact that Tutsis have excess NE African ancestry compared to other East African Bantus, including Hutus who have some of this ancestry but not nearly as much.
Yeah! And I think whatever they are using is not a 100% Hutus.
40014
These are my fellow Banyamulenge. I used a Hutu(Burundian) as reference for Bantu and still not as high.
Maybe it’s some mixed Rwandans.

Wangari
10-05-2020, 05:51 AM
My FTDNA updated results:
40017

Compare with the following:


My FTDNA 2020 update.

39878

It’s bad for people like me! But I believe if they can fine tune West-East Victoria cluster( and other wanky one), they would be with some of the best clusters from commercial companies. I mean, if a Ugandan Bantu would score <90% West victoria, they would have nailed it.

In general, I like the new African clusters they got.

Alfa
10-05-2020, 02:08 PM
My FTDNA updated results:
40017

There doesn't appear to be much of a difference compared to the following:

Interesting how Kenyans (your results are closer to Kikuyu) were assigned Eastern Lake Victoria Basin, and Rwandans/Burundians got Western Lake Victoria Basin.


I have seen a South East Africa Bantoues FTDNA results, and the person is predominently

Central Africa 49%
Atlantic Equatorial Africa,
Northern Congo Bassin
Southern Congo Bassin,

South Africa
36%(Southern Africa),

West Africa 4+%

Ghana/Togo/Benin
Nigeria...

I have no problem with these geographical clusters, but it may get confusing for some people.

It would be interesting to see other Ugandans Bantoues results.

gihanga.rwanda
10-05-2020, 02:59 PM
Interesting how Kenyans (your results are closer to Kikuyu) were assigned Eastern Lake Victoria Basin, and Rwandans/Burundians got Western Lake Victoria Basin.

I have seen a South East Africa Bantoues FTDNA results, and the person is predominently

Central Africa 49%
Atlantic Equatorial Africa,
Northern Congo Bassin
Southern Congo Bassin,

South Africa
36%(Southern Africa),

West Africa 4+%

Ghana/Togo/Benin
Nigeria...

I have no problem with these geographical clusters, but it may get confusing for some people.

It would be interesting to see other Ugandans Bantoues results.

I agree. I can see how it could be difficult for most laymen or regular customers to interpret the results; I’d personally prefer if they kept it simple and stuck to the following broad categories for SE Africa if possible.

Bantu-West African (e.g. Congolese)
NE African (e.g. Eritrea, Ethiopia, Somalia)
Central-East African (e.g. South Sudan)
Southern African hunter-gatherers (e.g. San)
Central African hunter-gatherers (e.g. Mbuti)

ThaYamamoto
10-07-2020, 01:04 AM
Just a question for Great Lakes peoples among you, could you please let me know if you have a disproportionate amount of Afro-American/Caribbean/Afro-Latino matches on Ancestry etc? Still working on my theory and until we get our hands on more diverse sets of samples, I'm curious to see how many ya'll match with. Next year Lord willing I plan to hit up both Zanzibar and Oman in search of records kept by the Swahili-Arabs and hope to decipher them, check out trading posts and trade-caravan routes. I have a hunch that once they penetrated as deep as the Congo i.e. Lubumbashi, trade with networks far further west possibly occurred or maybe with the Maghrebis and Egyptians.

Recently I've noticed from the results of Iraqis, Syrians etc that have a small fraction of tropical African ancestry is seemingly more West-African shifted than 'SE Bantu' and I've noticed similar patterns in Afro-Arabs in the Gulf as well, on a larger scale obviously. I wonder if the NA and EA slave trade(s) had any link.

Even with my minor tropical ancestry on Ancestry [range 0-18%], 150+ Afro-American matches regardless of IBS over IBD [one of the expert users in the genealogical section assures me that the shared cM is far higher than reported cuz of the Timber algorithm] is leading my further to an injection of West-African ancestry into the Great Lakes not via migration as I originally thought, but unfortunately via slavery. That thesis that found shared haplotypes between some Ugandans and a cohort of Dominicans/AAs hints at this and I'm definitely leaning toward this now.

swhl
10-09-2020, 10:58 AM
I'm a Comorian from the Ngazidja Island in the Comoros archipelago located on the eastern coast of Africa. MyOrigins 2.0 was completely inaccurate for me but MyOrigins 3.0 made way more sense and depicts perfectly my country's history as well as my ethnicity! These are my results :

MyOrigins 2.0
40131

MyOrigins3.0
40132
Full results :
Africa 88%

Eastern Lake Victoria Basin 44%
Western Lake Victoria Basin <1%
Southern Africa 21%
Southern Congo Basin 13%
Northern Congo Basin 6%
Nigeria 2%
Ghana, Togo & Benin <2%


Asia 9%

Malaysia & Western Indonesia 5%
Philippines Lowlands <1%
Eastern India 4%


Middle East 4%

Maghreb & Egypt <2%
Anatolia, Armenia, & Mesopotamia <2%

SWAHILLI_PRINCE16
10-12-2020, 05:13 PM
Wegene

Me

94.44% African

59.21% Yoruba
16.29% Somali
13.90% BantuSA
5.03% Mbuti
0.01% Others

5.50% South Asian
5.50% Indian

0.06% Others

0.444% Neanderthal
40206

Dad

95.36% African

61.92% Yoruba
18.23% Somali
11.87% BantuSA
3.32% Mbuti
0.02% Others

3.07% Middle Eastern
3.07% Egyptian

0.79% Chinese
0.78% Mongolian
0.01%Others

0.59% Southeast Asian
0.59% Thai

0.19% Others

0% Neanderthal
40205

lilac9
10-13-2020, 06:03 PM
Would anyone here know why a Puerto Rican would get more East African than West African on Family Tree's new my origins?

Puerto Rican results just African portion. Family Tree my Origins 3.0.

Africa
8%
East Africa
Eastern Lake Victoria Basin
3%
Horn of Africa
Eritrea, Northern Ethiopia & Somalia
3%
West Africa
Senegal, Gambia & Guinea-Bissau
<2%

mpatsibihugu89
10-13-2020, 11:50 PM
My FTDNA updated results:
40017

Compare with the following:

how does this compare to your 23andme results?

gihanga.rwanda
10-14-2020, 04:24 AM
These results were posted on Reddit. A Tuareg from Niger with yDNA E-M183 and mtDNA L3b. I was surprised that most of his recent SSA is Sudanese and not Senegambian etc., but maybe I shouldn’t, especially since the Tuareg are thought to have originated in southern Libya and still live in close proximity to groups like the Toubou etc. I’d be interested to see his Gedmatch results. Based on his pic, he looks like the stereotypical Tuareg like the dudes from Tinariwen (check them out if you haven’t heard of them) lol.

https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/iosy26/tuareg_results/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_title

https://i.redd.it/rddrsg7h7xl51.jpg

mpatsibihugu89
10-14-2020, 04:35 PM
These results were posted on Reddit. A Tuareg from Niger with yDNA E-M183 and mtDNA L3b. I was surprised that most of his recent SSA is Sudanese and not Senegambian etc., but maybe I shouldn’t, especially since the Tuareg are thought to have originated in southern Libya and still live in close proximity to groups like the Toubou etc. I’d be interested to see his Gedmatch results. Based on his pic, he looks like the stereotypical Tuareg like the dudes from Tinariwen (check them out if you haven’t heard of them) lol.

https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/iosy26/tuareg_results/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_title

https://i.redd.it/rddrsg7h7xl51.jpg

The 'Sudanese' cluster covers both S. Sudanese with dinka like ancestry and Sudan proper (North, central, west...). I have a Sudanese Arab score very high%. So this tuareg could be score N.Sudanese like ancestry.
40267

ThaYamamoto
10-14-2020, 04:48 PM
The 'Sudanese' cluster covers both S. Sudanese with dinka like ancestry and Sudan proper (North, central, west...). I have a Sudanese Arab score very high%. So this tuareg could be score N.Sudanese like ancestry.
40267

I'm starting to think 23andme employs PCAs akin to the G25 but perform very poorly compared to it, although the g25 is heavily constrained when it comes to Africans. The Sudanese component is probably maximised for the SSA ancestry in this Tuareg individual due to where he'd plot on intra-african PCAs. This 'Sudanese' ancestry is most likely [Nilo]Saharan and Chadic-like ancestry. I really doubt it is Nilotic or Central Sudanic at all. We know 23andme perform such reference chromosome nonsense from their own paper this year - highest IBD between Aframs and the Cameroon/Congo cluster but they still report 'Nigerian' as the dominant ancestral component in Aframs, bearing in mind that these ancestral components are actually all artificial.

gihanga.rwanda
10-14-2020, 08:08 PM
I also wonder if the “Sudanese” ancestry is indicative of elevated Taforalt/ANA ancestry relative to more northern Maghrebi populations?

Isn’t there some circumstantial evidence that the Tuareg weren’t the first pastoralists to migrate to the Sahel from the direction of northern Africa. It’s possible that the Tuareg, and separately the Fulani and Toubou, absorbed some of these populations. We need some aDNA from the Tenerians and Kiffians.

swhl
10-16-2020, 08:29 AM
These results were posted on Reddit. A Tuareg from Niger with yDNA E-M183 and mtDNA L3b. I was surprised that most of his recent SSA is Sudanese and not Senegambian etc., but maybe I shouldn’t, especially since the Tuareg are thought to have originated in southern Libya and still live in close proximity to groups like the Toubou etc. I’d be interested to see his Gedmatch results. Based on his pic, he looks like the stereotypical Tuareg like the dudes from Tinariwen (check them out if you haven’t heard of them) lol.

https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/iosy26/tuareg_results/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_title

https://i.redd.it/rddrsg7h7xl51.jpg

Later in the thread he said that he scored 30% senegambian on Ancestry, but it may be indicative of Toubou/Sahelian DNA. Talking of sahelian, does anyone have results from a Chadian or Zaghawa (sahelian in general), it'd be really interesting to see their genetic makeup since we don't really have any information on them!

gihanga.rwanda
10-16-2020, 05:12 PM
Later in the thread he said that he scored 30% senegambian on Ancestry, but it may be indicative of Toubou/Sahelian DNA. Talking of sahelian, does anyone have results from a Chadian or Zaghawa (sahelian in general), it'd be really interesting to see their genetic makeup since we don't really have any information on them!

Hollfelder et al. 2017 analyzed some samples from the Zaghawa, as well as Messiria (“Baggara or Shuwa Arabs”), Nuba, and Temar, and they appear to be a standard central Sahelian population with a lot less NW African-related admixture than their linguistic kin the Toubou. They don’t seem too different from the Kanembou and Kanuri, although these latter groups have more “recent” West African admixture. As would be expected, they have a stronger affinity to Dinka than Yoruba.

https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006976

Angoliga
10-23-2020, 10:08 PM
Here's my 24 Genetics results:

By country:
https://i.imgur.com/9YsDLtj.png

Regional:
https://i.imgur.com/iU9lL8q.png

Both of my parents are from ethnic groups within the West-Nile region of Uganda, so I found it interesting that I'd only score 7.10%. Still fascinating that they'd even include so many of these sub-regions, even if they're not discernible/of any value for my particular ancestry.
Hopefully they'll update their references within the coming years.

Looking forward to see others results -- I recall seeing 1 or 2 on this thread

mpatsibihugu89
10-24-2020, 07:50 PM
My relative from Kenya with v5.9 23andme. 4 gd parents indicates Western Kenya Vihiga county. Think this person is luhya with near ~100% SEA.40612

ThaYamamoto
10-24-2020, 10:10 PM
My relative from Kenya with v5.9 23andme. 4 gd parents indicates Western Kenya Vihiga county. Think this person is luhya with near ~100% SEA.40612

This is great...vindicated my suspicions that SE Africa is essentially a Greater Nyanza artificial cluster. Its essentially a Luhya/Luo component.The tiny Senegambian fraction is really cool.

Espoir
10-25-2020, 03:44 AM
Here's my 24 Genetics results:

By country:
https://i.imgur.com/9YsDLtj.png

Regional:
https://i.imgur.com/iU9lL8q.png

Both of my parents are from ethnic groups within the West-Nile region of Uganda, so I found it interesting that I'd only score 7.10%. Still fascinating that they'd even include so many of these sub-regions, even if they're not discernible/of any value for my particular ancestry.
Hopefully they'll update their references within the coming years.

Looking forward to see others results -- I recall seeing 1 or 2 on this thread

When did you take it?! Seems like they added more regions compared to when I did it.

mpatsibihugu89
10-25-2020, 09:14 PM
This is great...vindicated my suspicions that SE Africa is essentially a Greater Nyanza artificial cluster. Its essentially a Luhya/Luo component.The tiny Senegambian fraction is really cool.
Any comments / observations on the v5.9 update 23andme?

gihanga.rwanda
10-26-2020, 12:59 AM
Any comments / observations on the v5.9 update 23andme?

My results are still useless lol.

ThaYamamoto
10-26-2020, 02:22 AM
Any comments / observations on the v5.9 update 23andme?

Its hard for me to say from a personal perspective being only part African. But I think the results are pretty meaningless now..entirely geographic PCA projections seems to be what's going on now. No finer structure level. I mean they removed my ~8% WANA ancestry like it was nothing lol. But in terms of Africans I think its pretty useless, meaningless with an extremely harsh penalty. 23andme showed their ass so to speak when their own commissioned academic paper contradicted their reports for Afro descendants! I mean what a joke. I would have loved to see that Luhya sample prior to the update...the Bangime paper had 10-20% of the Senegambian component for Luhya/Luos! Its sad that various admix tools and formal stats are probably the only true meaningful tests for most African peoples. I'd actually like to develop one using SWARM intelligence but that will probably be a long, long time from now.

Marv
10-26-2020, 02:53 AM
40637

40638

Espoir
10-27-2020, 01:34 PM
Hutu

40690

Omwiru(Banyankole)

40691

This Southern East Africa most be some sort of great lakes Bantu peaking in Luhya.

afbarwaaqo
10-28-2020, 09:52 AM
this is my 23andMe V5.9 updated result
40713

NetNomad
10-28-2020, 10:30 AM
this is my 23andMe V5.9 updated result
40713

Do you have SEA ancestry on G25?

Alfa
10-28-2020, 09:10 PM
This South East Africa peaking in Luhya is Kenya Luhya cluster.

23andme South East Africa reference: Rwandan, Burundian, Tanzanian, Ugandan, Kenya, and Kenya Luhya.

Kenyan is probably different from Kenya Luhya, probably reason why 23andme has both Kenyan and Kenyan_Luhya.

Some Somali are having traces of South East Africa on 23andme. They probably scoring the " Kenyan " cluster(not Kenya_Luhya cluster)

40729

afbarwaaqo
10-28-2020, 09:12 PM
Do you have SEA ancestry on G25?

nah only nilotic and mota for the african ancestry, idk if the raw data of the previous 23andme version that i used to convert to G25 had anything to do with it since SEA never showed up prior to the update, but my overall G25 results seem inaccurate i had more mota than the average somali

drobbah
10-28-2020, 09:46 PM
This South East Africa peaking in Luhya is Kenya Luhya cluster.

23andme South East Africa reference: Rwandan, Burundian, Tanzanian, Ugandan, Kenya, and Kenya Luhya.

Kenyan is probably different from Kenya Luhya, probably reason why 23andme has both Kenyan and Kenyan_Luhya.

Some Somali are having traces of South East Africa on 23andme. They probably scoring the " Kenyan " cluster(not Kenya_Luhya cluster)

40729
Those Somalis probably have minor Benadiri (admixed Southern coastal community) admixture.Never seen a Somaliland,Djibouti or Ethiopian Somali get SEA on 23andme.

Rwaka
10-29-2020, 06:41 AM
My results are still useless lol.

Lol show them

NetNomad
10-29-2020, 06:47 AM
Those Somalis probably have minor Benadiri (admixed Southern coastal community) admixture.Never seen a Somaliland,Djibouti or Ethiopian Somali get SEA on 23andme.

I wonder if Kenyan Somalis who are not Bantu admixed would still score it, as they have some local Kenyan type of Cushitic & hunter-gatherer ancestry that's also found in SEAs. Might get the algorithm confused.

Espoir
10-29-2020, 08:28 AM
Any comments / observations on the v5.9 update 23andme?


I wonder if Kenyan Somalis who are not Bantu admixed would still score it, as they have some local Kenyan type of Cushitic & hunter-gatherer ancestry that's also found in SEAs. Might get the algorithm confused.


You think Southern East Africa has some Cushitic in it?

NetNomad
10-29-2020, 08:46 AM
You think Southern East Africa has some Cushitic in it?

Very small amounts, must be, because nearly all Kenyans have some. Also said it may include some local HG.

Espoir
10-29-2020, 09:27 AM
Very small amounts, must be, because nearly all Kenyans have some. Also said it may include some local HG.

Local hunter-gatherer is most likely. For Cushitic, i assume since many score some Ethiopia, that where all their cushitic admixture goes.

gihanga.rwanda
10-29-2020, 03:02 PM
Lol show them

Before and after update.

https://ibb.co/CMzVWzt

https://ibb.co/sWSkzWZ

For those of you who don’t know, I am 3/4 Tutsi and 1/4 Hutu. I am the most West African-shifted Tutsi in this PCA posted by Razib Khan (see below).

http://www.razib.com/wordpress/category/tutsi/

gihanga.rwanda
10-29-2020, 03:29 PM
Local hunter-gatherer is most likely. For Cushitic, i assume since many score some Ethiopia, that where all their cushitic admixture goes.

The SEA component in 23andme probably indicates some Cushitic and Nilotic affinities in SE Africans. Kenyans and other SE Africans score Eritrean/Ethiopian and Sudanese in 23andme and Ancestry DNA, but not as much as if they ran their raw DNA on Gedmatch, etc.

Edit: Ditto on HG ancestry being invisible on 23andme, particularly for SE Africans.

Espoir
10-29-2020, 03:54 PM
The SEA component in 23andme probably indicates some Cushitic and Nilotic affinities in SE Africans. Kenyans and other SE Africans score Eritrean/Ethiopian and Sudanese in 23andme and Ancestry DNA, but not as much as if they ran their raw DNA on Gedmatch, etc.

Edit: Ditto on HG ancestry being invisible on 23andme, particularly for SE Africans.
I'm very confused by SEA now.
A think I have noticed is whenever an update come, the most drastic change usually happens between SEA and Sudan. I mean, when one gain, the other loose.

Oh! Speaking of that, the is a paper that just came out,
AA speaker gene flow in UBS(Ugandan Bantu Speakers) about 57 generations back. Luhya received it later it seems, 28 generations.
Link here (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2859-7#MOESM3)

gihanga.rwanda
10-29-2020, 04:01 PM
Hutu

40690

Omwiru(Banyankole)

40691

This Southern East Africa most be some sort of great lakes Bantu peaking in Luhya.

Is this the same Hutu that Razib wrote about in his blog? If so, do you know if s/he is from the Bakiga and Banyanduga? My guess is the latter since she has some modest Cushitic-related ancestry.

For those of you who don’t know, the Banyandugu are Hutus from southern Rwanda; they’ve been apart of the Rwandan state since the beginning and have hence interacted with Tutsis for a longer period of time. The Bakiga are from northern Rwanda and tend to have a independent/separatist streak about them, as they were only conquered shortly before the first Europeans arrived in the region. The rivalry between these two groups, along with the Tutsis and their clans, have driven a lot of our history in the last 100 odd years. They also tend to look different imho; I am not sure if the other Rwandans here have observed the same thing.

maroco
10-29-2020, 04:11 PM
Is North Africans allowed to post or is this an exclusive group

mpatsibihugu89
10-29-2020, 04:15 PM
Before and after update.

https://ibb.co/CMzVWzt

https://ibb.co/sWSkzWZ

For those of you who don’t know, I am 3/4 Tutsi and 1/4 Hutu. I am the most West African-shifted Tutsi in this PCA posted by Razib Khan (see below).

http://www.razib.com/wordpress/category/tutsi/

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Are you on @Angoliga's PCA?

gihanga.rwanda
10-29-2020, 04:29 PM
Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Are you on @Angoliga's PCA?

Nope not at the moment.

gihanga.rwanda
10-29-2020, 04:32 PM
Is North Africans allowed to post or is this an exclusive group

North Africans have Paleolithic and Holocene African ancestry so I’d say yes. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

mpatsibihugu89
10-29-2020, 04:34 PM
Those Somalis probably have minor Benadiri (admixed Southern coastal community) admixture.Never seen a Somaliland,Djibouti or Ethiopian Somali get SEA on 23andme.

Even with the new 23andme update?

ThaYamamoto
10-29-2020, 05:19 PM
I'm very confused by SEA now.
A think I have noticed is whenever an update come, the most drastic change usually happens between SEA and Sudan. I mean, when one gain, the other loose.

Oh! Speaking of that, the is a paper that just came out, about 57 generations back. Luhya received it later it seems, 28 generations.
Link here (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2859-7#MOESM3)

I'd take those results with a pinch of salt..2-3 of the UBS samples [Basoga] were recently admixed with Somali skewering this supposed introgression in favor of a old admixture event. You can see on the admix runs the AA component present in the Banyarwanda and in some Baganda is missing from the UBS samples except for in the outlier individuals. The AA introgression into the Luhya is also misinterpreted, the LWK sample are are Bukusu and have mixed with Kalenjin for a long time thus they show cushitic affinities.

maroco
10-29-2020, 05:30 PM
These are my results from g25 Neolithic:

Distance: 1.2770% / 0.01276965
31.2 Iberomaurusian
30.2 Early_European_Farmer
13.2 Proto-Natufian_(simulated)
12.0 West_African_(simulated)
6.6 Iran_Neolithic
6.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
0.6 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer

My 23 and me results:
40765

Imesmouden
10-29-2020, 05:45 PM
https://i.imgur.com/dMvaJXd.png

https://i.imgur.com/ocS3aR2.png

Target: Imesmouden_scaled
Distance: 1.7224% / 0.01722422
37.2 Iberomaurusian
36.0 Early_European_Farmer
8.6 Proto-Natufian_(simulated)
7.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
5.4 Iran_Neolithic
5.0 SSA

Rwaka
10-29-2020, 05:53 PM
Before and after update.

https://ibb.co/CMzVWzt

https://ibb.co/sWSkzWZ

For those of you who don’t know, I am 3/4 Tutsi and 1/4 Hutu. I am the most West African-shifted Tutsi in this PCA posted by Razib Khan (see below).

http://www.razib.com/wordpress/category/tutsi/

Interesting results. Thanks for sharing. You have the highest HG percentage I've seen in Tutsi and Hutu. Have you thought about requesting G25 coordinates? Or you already have them?

Alfa
10-29-2020, 08:13 PM
The SEA component in 23andme probably indicates some Cushitic and Nilotic affinities in SE Africans. Kenyans and other SE Africans score Eritrean/Ethiopian and Sudanese in 23andme and Ancestry DNA, but not as much as if they ran their raw DNA on Gedmatch, etc.

Edit: Ditto on HG ancestry being invisible on 23andme, particularly for SE Africans.

You are probably right. For example Tutsi are being assigned Ethiopia_Eritrea, Sudan, in some case Somali, and "Broadly North East Africa", If there are Somali and Horners who are scoring "Broadly Sub-saharan Africa", it is probably also South East Africa signal(not Broadly North East Africa)

drobbah
10-29-2020, 09:50 PM
Even with the new 23andme update?
Haven't seen any of the matches I'm connected with from my region (SL &Ethiopia) that score any SEA.We always get Somali + minor Ethio although some also get additional noise level MENA or South Asian.

Espoir
10-29-2020, 11:21 PM
Is this the same Hutu that Razib wrote about in his blog? If so, do you know if s/she is from the Bakiga and Banyanduga? My guess is the latter since she has some modest Cushitic-related ancestry.

For those of you who don’t know, the Banyandugu are Hutus from southern Rwanda; they’ve been apart of the Rwandan state since the beginning and have hence interacted with Tutsis for a longer period of time. The Bakiga are from northern Rwanda and tend to have a independent/separatist streak about them, as they were only conquered shortly before the first Europeans arrived in the region. The rivalry between these two groups, along with the Tutsis and their clans, have driven a lot of our history in the last 100 odd years. They also tend to look different imho; I am not sure if the other Rwandans here have observed the same thing.
No, this guy is different. Unfortunately, I don't know where he is from.
The Hutu Razib has is from Burundi and I believe after he gets updated,, he might score like this Mwiru from Ankole since there results were very similar before the update.

Espoir
10-30-2020, 01:43 AM
I'd take those results with a pinch of salt..2-3 of the UBS samples [Basoga] were recently admixed with Somali skewering this supposed introgression in favor of a old admixture event. You can see on the admix runs the AA component present in the Banyarwanda and in some Baganda is missing from the UBS samples except for in the outlier individuals. The AA introgression into the Luhya is also misinterpreted, the LWK sample are are Bukusu and have mixed with Kalenjin for a long time thus they show cushitic affinities.

Are we sure UBS stands for Basoga? From what I read in the paper, its Ugandan Bantu speakers.

Yeah! I just saw those individuals you referred to that have Cushitic ancestry. Its quite remarkable. What if those are Hima or Banyarwanda. These data were taken, I believe from a paper that came out not long time ago, and some individuals were absolutely shifted towards Horners. Closer to Masai, which led me believe its these Great lakes pastoralists.

ThaYamamoto
10-30-2020, 04:16 AM
Are we sure UBS stands for Basoga? From what I read in the paper, its Ugandan Bantu speakers.

Yeah! I just saw those individuals you referred to that have Cushitic ancestry. Its quite remarkable. What if those are Hima or Banyarwanda. These data were taken, I believe from a paper that came out not long time ago, and some individuals were absolutely shifted towards Horners. Closer to Masai, which led me believe its these Great lakes pastoralists.

Hmm nah I don't think so man, you're right both the Lugbara [UNS] and UNB are originally from the Mulindwa paper. You can see that they are all Basoga individuals collected in Jinja [south-east Uganda Busoga land] in the supplements, I can't link them right now but Angoliga can confirm. In Jinja many people are admixed with Indian, Yemeni/Omani and Somali (heavy Muslim influence). My own family hails from in and around the area. For some reason they preferred to annotate Soga as UNB in this paper, I guess for simplicity although even the Mulindwa paper referred to them as UBB [Uganan Basoga Bantu]. What is interesting is that most of the Bantus across the SEA region have some semblance of Horner-like ancestry including some Baganda but there are isolated pockets such as UBS and non-Bukusu Luhyas that seem to have none except for in outliers.

Espoir
10-30-2020, 04:32 AM
Hmm nah I don't think so man, you're right both the Lugbara [UNS] and UNB are originally from the Mulindwa paper. You can see that they are all Basoga individuals collected in Jinja [south-east Uganda Busoga land] in the supplements, I can't link them right now but Angoliga can confirm. In Jinja many people are admixed with Indian, Yemeni/Omani and Somali (heavy Muslim influence). My own family hails from in and around the area. For some reason they preferred to annotate Soga as UNB in this paper, I guess for simplicity although even the Mulindwa paper referred to them as UBB [Uganan Basoga Bantu]. What is interesting is that most of the Bantus across the SEA region have some semblance of Horner-like ancestry including some Baganda but there are isolated pockets such as UBS and non-Bukusu Luhyas that seem to have none except for in outliers.

Oh! I wasn't sure. If you read the supplements, I take your word for it.

Interesting to know that you hail from there. I lived in Uganda too. Basoga are closely related to Baganda. No wonder they overlap in the paper.

ThaYamamoto
10-30-2020, 05:06 AM
Oh! I wasn't sure. If you read the supplements, I take your word for it.

Interesting to know that you hail from there. I lived in Uganda too. Basoga are closely related to Baganda. No wonder they overlap in the paper.

Haha thanks yeah I'm p sure. Oh that's cool to know that you lived in Uganda I've only ever visited a few times. Yeah I believe they are like sister-groups although oral history suggests a Bunyoro origin - and there's the case of the Luo-Babito rule which I'm sure you'll know a lot more about than me , my knowledge of the history of the region is very limited, you guys are like an encyclopedia. My family later moved to Kenya and settled in Luoland where my fathers family were based. My father has distant Luo ancestry so I'm told. What's interesting is that Basoga seem to have a lot more Nilotic [whether this is from Luo peoples or Central Sudanics I have no idea] than their sister-group Baganda. I'll have my great-uncle tested soon which should be interesting as he'll have a lot more ancestral heritage than me to investigate ;)

Espoir
10-30-2020, 06:37 AM
Haha thanks yeah I'm p sure. Oh that's cool to know that you lived in Uganda I've only ever visited a few times. Yeah I believe they are like sister-groups although oral history suggests a Bunyoro origin - and there's the case of the Luo-Babito rule which I'm sure you'll know a lot more about than me , my knowledge of the history of the region is very limited, you guys are like an encyclopedia. My family later moved to Kenya and settled in Luoland where my fathers family were based. My father has distant Luo ancestry so I'm told. What's interesting is that Basoga seem to have a lot more Nilotic [whether this is from Luo peoples or Central Sudanics I have no idea] than their sister-group Baganda. I'll have my great-uncle tested soon which should be interesting as he'll have a lot more ancestral heritage than me to investigate ;)

Awesome! Baganda royal family is the one I know that claim Biito/Luo origin. I don't think the rest of the clans have any connection to Bunyoro/Biito.

ThaYamamoto
10-30-2020, 05:19 PM
Awesome! Baganda royal family is the one I know that claim Biito/Luo origin. I don't think the rest of the clans have any connection to Bunyoro/Biito.

So its the royalty - okay now that makes sense!

Jnuttz87
10-31-2020, 02:19 AM
Bump, bump, bump up in here:

K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Sub-Saharan 74.00
2 North_Atlantic 6.65
3 Northeast_African 6.34
4 West_Med 4.06
5 Amerindian 2.31
6 West_Asian 2.17
7 Red_Sea 2.10
8 Baltic 1.81

Jnuttz87
10-31-2020, 02:23 AM
Apparently I got alot of Bantu in me:

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Bantu_S.E. @ 15.724379
2 Bantu_S.W. @ 16.024813
3 Mandenka @ 17.094387
4 Biaka_Pygmy @ 17.748837
5 Luhya @ 20.690775
6 Bantu_N.E. @ 21.062204
7 Yoruban @ 23.102201
8 Yoruban @ 23.102201
9 Mbuti_Pygmy @ 29.236851
10 San @ 37.799778
11 Sandawe @ 57.402630
12 Sudanese @ 61.167999
13 Maasai @ 65.082230
14 Ethiopian_Anuak @ 66.461365
15 Hadza @ 70.501534
16 Mozabite_Berber @ 71.826561
17 Algerian @ 73.483925
18 Tunisian @ 73.733749
19 Moroccan @ 75.099480
20 Egyptian @ 81.110466

Alfa
10-31-2020, 05:23 AM
Is this the same Hutu that Razib wrote about in his blog? If so, do you know if s/he is from the Bakiga and Banyanduga? My guess is the latter since she has some modest Cushitic-related ancestry.

For those of you who don’t know, the Banyandugu are Hutus from southern Rwanda; they’ve been apart of the Rwandan state since the beginning and have hence interacted with Tutsis for a longer period of time. The Bakiga are from northern Rwanda and tend to have a independent/separatist streak about them, as they were only conquered shortly before the first Europeans arrived in the region. The rivalry between these two groups, along with the Tutsis and their clans, have driven a lot of our history in the last 100 odd years. They also tend to look different imho; I am not sure if the other Rwandans here have observed the same thing.

Banyenduga are descended from Ancient Kingdom of Nduga before it was absorbed by Rwanda kingdom, and many of their clans were also pastoralists. Some Banyenduga subclans are also found among Tutsi(it is rare). The banyenduga also look physical different especially those who are from Tutsi dominant regions of South Province. I expect many of Banyenduga people to be more cushitic than this Hutu. It also possible that some of the E-M293, and T-M184 haplogroups that were found among Hutu in Rwanda are from the Banyenduga in the South Province.

gihanga.rwanda
10-31-2020, 05:00 PM
Banyenduga are descended from Ancient Kingdom of Nduga before it was absorbed by Rwanda kingdom, and many of their clans were also pastoralists. Some Banyenduga subclans are also found among Tutsi(it is rare). The banyenduga also look physical different especially those who are from Tutsi dominant regions of South Province. I expect many of Banyenduga people to be more cushitic than this Hutu. It also possible that some of the E-M293, and T-M184 haplogroups that were found among Hutu in Rwanda are from the Banyenduga in the South Province.

My paternal grandmother was a ndugakazi and I suspect that she would’ve clustered somewhere around the Hutu featured in this post by Razib Khan. In the PCA, I am exactly .75 and .25 from the Hutu individual and the main Tutsi cluster (excluding the West African-shifted individuals and outlier). That being said, I’d expect to see some variation among the Banyanduga - even if we didn’t included admixed individuals with Tutsi mothers or grandmothers - and wouldn’t be surprised if some of them cluster close to groups in northern/central Tanzania.

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2020/01/18/the-belgians-did-not-invent-the-hutu-and-tutsi-ethnic-groups-who-have-different-origins/

Jnuttz87
11-01-2020, 11:23 PM
My paternal grandmother was a ndugakazi and I suspect that she would’ve clustered somewhere around the Hutu featured in this post by Razib Khan. In the PCA, I am exactly .75 and .25 from the Hutu individual and the main Tutsi cluster (excluding the West African-shifted individuals and outlier). That being said, I’d expect to see some variation among the Banyanduga - even if we didn’t included admixed individuals with Tutsi mothers or grandmothers - and wouldn’t be surprised if some of them cluster close to groups in northern/central Tanzania.

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2020/01/18/the-belgians-did-not-invent-the-hutu-and-tutsi-ethnic-groups-who-have-different-origins/

Can you post your k13, if you dont mind?

drobbah
11-01-2020, 11:25 PM
Bump, bump, bump up in here:

K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Sub-Saharan 74.00
2 North_Atlantic 6.65
3 Northeast_African 6.34
4 West_Med 4.06
5 Amerindian 2.31
6 West_Asian 2.17
7 Red_Sea 2.10
8 Baltic 1.81

How much Sub-Saharan ancestry did you get on 23&me or AncestryDNA?

gihanga.rwanda
11-02-2020, 12:24 AM
Can you post your k13, if you dont mind?

Population
Sub-Saharan - 44.71 Pct
Northeast_African - 39.38 Pct
Red_Sea - 10.27 Pct
East_Med - 4.15 Pct
Amerindian - 0.48 Pct
North_Atlantic - 0.44 Pct
East_Asian - 0.35 Pct
West_Med - 0.21 Pct

Jnuttz87
11-02-2020, 01:25 AM
My 23andme report had me at 82.4 % Sub-Saharan African, so pretty friggin close. My highest ancestry component on there was Nigerian at 32.9 %.

Jnuttz87
11-02-2020, 01:27 AM
Population
Sub-Saharan - 44.71 Pct
Northeast_African - 39.38 Pct
Red_Sea - 10.27 Pct
East_Med - 4.15 Pct
Amerindian - 0.48 Pct
North_Atlantic - 0.44 Pct
East_Asian - 0.35 Pct
West_Med - 0.21 Pct

Thank you. Are you full Tutsi?

drobbah
11-02-2020, 04:18 AM
My 23andme report had me at 82.4 % Sub-Saharan African, so pretty friggin close. My highest ancestry component on there was Nigerian at 32.9 %.
Was Nigeria the biggest supplier of slaves to the anglo speaking parts of North America? Cause some Caribbean friends of mine have Nigerian as their highest component aswell with one of them scoring 50% Nigerian and looks like an Igbo

gihanga.rwanda
11-02-2020, 12:13 PM
Thank you. Are you full Tutsi?

I am Tutsi but one of my grandmothers was Hutu. Tutsis with four Tutsi grandparents tend to be about ~10-15% more NE African/Red Sea/East Med in K13.

Wangari
11-02-2020, 06:58 PM
Population
Sub-Saharan - 44.71 Pct
Northeast_African - 39.38 Pct
Red_Sea - 10.27 Pct
East_Med - 4.15 Pct
Amerindian - 0.48 Pct
North_Atlantic - 0.44 Pct
East_Asian - 0.35 Pct
West_Med - 0.21 Pct

This is similar to this Meru (Bantu) individual from Kenya:

Sub-Saharan 43.61
Northeast_African 42.6
Red_Sea 10.37
East_Med 3.26
Oceanian 0.14

40940

gihanga.rwanda
11-02-2020, 07:32 PM
This is similar to this Meru (Bantu) individual from Kenya:

Sub-Saharan 43.61
Northeast_African 42.6
Red_Sea 10.37
East_Med 3.26
Oceanian 0.14

40940

Very similar indeed. Do you happen to have this individual’s Eurogenes HG vs. Farmer results?

Hurricane
11-02-2020, 07:33 PM
I got a new sudanese match

https://i.imgur.com/jRgggoJ.png

Updated results

https://i.imgur.com/1pVDLY7.png

Wangari
11-02-2020, 08:52 PM
Very similar indeed. Do you happen to have this individual’s Eurogenes HG vs. Farmer results?

East African Pastoralist 48.04
Bantu Farmer 36.97
Middle Eastern Herder 9.03
Pygmy Hunter Gatherer 5.76
Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.2

passenger
11-02-2020, 10:21 PM
Was Nigeria the biggest supplier of slaves to the anglo speaking parts of North America? Cause some Caribbean friends of mine have Nigerian as their highest component aswell with one of them scoring 50% Nigerian and looks like an Igbo

I'm not sure it was the biggest direct supplier of slaves. All the main regions affected by the Atlantic trade are represented in the U.S. (everywhere from Senegambia to Angola on the Atlantic, and, to a lesser extent, Southeast African locations like present-day Mozambique and Madagascar). But this recent study (https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(20)30200-7) found "Nigerian" ancestry to be overrepresented among African-Americans in comparison with the number of direct arrivals. The authors hypothesized that the discrepancy could be due to the Intra-American slave trade, with more slaves of Nigerian origin coming via the British Caribbean, rather than being brought directly to British North America / the U.S.

Jnuttz87
11-03-2020, 12:44 AM
Was Nigeria the biggest supplier of slaves to the anglo speaking parts of North America? Cause some Caribbean friends of mine have Nigerian as their highest component aswell with one of them scoring 50% Nigerian and looks like an Igbo

Yea..and West Africa in general.

Jnuttz87
11-03-2020, 12:50 AM
I am Tutsi but one of my grandmothers was Hutu. Tutsis with four Tutsi grandparents tend to be about ~10-15% more NE African/Red Sea/East Med in K13.

Hmmm so it seems like Tutsis were a cushitic/nilotic (like the Masaai) group that got absorbed in the bantu expansion..cant wait to see more tutsis results on here :)

ThaYamamoto
11-03-2020, 02:30 AM
I'm not sure it was the biggest direct supplier of slaves. All the main regions affected by the Atlantic trade are represented in the U.S. (everywhere from Senegambia to Angola on the Atlantic, and, to a lesser extent, Southeast African locations like present-day Mozambique and Madagascar). But this recent study (https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(20)30200-7) found "Nigerian" ancestry to be overrepresented among African-Americans in comparison with the number of direct arrivals. The authors hypothesized that the discrepancy could be due to the Intra-American slave trade, with more slaves of Nigerian origin coming via the British Caribbean, rather than being brought directly to British North America / the U.S.

Ahh yes that paper. Unfortunately that paper was in collaboration with 23andme and the findings were shoehorned into a favourable conclusion to mirror 23andme's autosomal presentation. Here's the issue; for quite some time now the general consensus was that the majority, albeit a slim majority, of peoples tragically enslaved were of Central-African origin [Angolan/Congolese/Cameroonian] mostly transported from major slave-ports like Luanda. We know this occurred as once in contact with the Bantus, it became apparent that Bantu-speaking regions were the most lucrative as the Bantus already practiced mass slave cultivation, similar to the Igbo and Fon but on a much larger scale with entire slave castes dedicated to the endeavour of lucrative trade with the Europeans and to establish certain tribal hegemonies. Of course understandably, for political reasons much of this side of slavery has been hidden away and to be honest, so it should lest there be people who use it as an excuse for white supremacist apologists etc. Kongolization massively impacted the Americas and not just as part of the Gullah/Geechee communities - but across the board, being the last to arrive and in a maximum number.

As you most probably know, from figures and statistics regarding the TA slave trade, the first region impacted was Senegambia which slowly gave way to a gradual move East toward the Bight of Biafra and finally Bantu speaking lands. I can't get the relevant figures up right now but there widely available like on Fonte Felipe's blog, with what I believe 40% of slaves coming from 'Angola/Luanda'. Thus we have to ask the question; why does so-called Nigerian ancestry dominate ancestry reports for African-Americans on commercial ancestry tests, when we know mixing between slave groups was indiscriminate. The answer is that all of these heritage components are artificial. We know ADMIXTURE-like algorithms will compensate and create components of their own, but what's going on with AAs?

First the most important finding from the above paper and what has pretty much confirmed it for me personally, is that IBD between African-Americans and African donor groups was highest for AA - Congolese. Unlike flimsy ancestral components [which I'll get on to in a minute], IBD is the greatest measure of actual parental descent between these populations. However the same paper decides to disregard their most important finding, in order to focus on the admixture results that coincidentally mirror 23andme's final reports. Hmm. Its been clear to me for some time now that Nigerians*, as diverse as they are, act as the true intermediary African population [intermediate between Senegambia and the Congo for the pedantics amongst you]. Every unsupervised admix run going back to 2009-2011 demonstrates this. Outside of their own interbreeding and drift, they share almost equal allele coverage with populations west of them as they do populations east up until the rainforest. Its then understandable that mixture algorithms will associate a such pristinely intermediate group with a population that after hundreds of years of multigenerational admixture, so surprisingly in keeping with a Atlantic-Congo cline over time, will exhibit this artificial Nigerian component as their dominant ancestry as the overlap is too strong for such rudimentary scripts to detect fine-scale differentiation. I can't overstate how much of what I believe is an intentional error on the part of the authors, is skewering the reality of things. The IBD results speak volumes and it is unfortunate that the idea that these ancestral components are artificial is not communicated. I'd say well enough, but it isn't communicated at all.

This brings me on to something else I've been studying which is commercial tests are almost functioning in a similar manner to the G25 PCA, when it comes to Africans. Even the slightest affinity to NE-Africa on g25 will overstate 'Dinka' like ancestry quite drastically, as any shift toward this cline results in nMonte attaching the intermediate position as the dominant ancestral component, even though we know 'Yoruba' and 'Dinka' are highly differentiated populations, the PCAs do not interpret them as such. This is why g25+nMonte for deep ancestry is a waste of time imho, admixr is still superior in this regard for Africans. We see this with occur with 23andme, particularly post-update: any NE-African shift will be interpreted as SE-African as the artificial cluster is based on a Nilotic-Bantu ancestry stream. While this works in theory, SE-Africans being heavily mixed, it doesn't paint a true picture at all. Prior to their update, AncestryDNA seem to have hit the nail on the head with their Cameroon/Congo cluster. Nigerians are dope and literally at the forefront of everything right now, so who doesn't wanna be Nigerian? But these tests are taking the piss a little bit, the small semblance of Angola/Congo on 23andme for AAs is just...silly. With the new update I'd argue that the Senegambian component is also too low, the intermediary Nigerian component soaking up everything.

*mostly southern/middle belt Nigerians of course

passenger
11-03-2020, 03:19 AM
Ahh yes that paper. Unfortunately that paper was in collaboration with 23andme and the findings were shoehorned into a favourable conclusion to mirror 23andme's autosomal presentation. Here's the issue; for quite some time now the general consensus was that the majority, albeit a slim majority, of peoples tragically enslaved were of Central-African origin [Angolan/Congolese/Cameroonian] mostly transported from major slave-ports like Luanda. We know this occurred as once in contact with the Bantus, it became apparent that Bantu-speaking regions were the most lucrative as the Bantus already practiced mass slave cultivation, similar to the Igbo and Fon but on a much larger scale with entire slave castes dedicated to the endeavour of lucrative trade with the Europeans and to establish certain tribal hegemonies. Of course understandably, for political reasons much of this side of slavery has been hidden away and to be honest, so it should lest there be people who use it as an excuse for white supremacist apologists etc. Kongolization massively impacted the Americas and not just as part of the Gullah/Geechee communities - but across the board, being the last to arrive and in a maximum number.

As you most probably know, from figures and statistics regarding the TA slave trade, the first region impacted was Senegambia which slowly gave way to a gradual move East toward the Bight of Biafra and finally Bantu speaking lands. I can't get the relevant figures up right now but there widely available like on Fonte Felipe's blog, with what I believe 40% of slaves coming from 'Angola/Luanda'. Thus we have to ask the question; why does so-called Nigerian ancestry dominate ancestry reports for African-Americans on commercial ancestry tests, when we know mixing between slave groups was indiscriminate. The answer is that all of these heritage components are artificial. We know ADMIXTURE-like algorithms will compensate and create components of their own, but what's going on with AAs?

First the most important finding from the above paper and what has pretty much confirmed it for me personally, is that IBD between African-Americans and African donor groups was highest for AA - Congolese. Unlike flimsy ancestral components [which I'll get on to in a minute], IBD is the greatest measure of actual parental descent between these populations. However the same paper decides to disregard their most important finding, in order to focus on the admixture results that coincidentally mirror 23andme's final reports. Hmm. Its been clear to me for some time now that Nigerians*, as diverse as they are, act as the true intermediary African population [intermediate between Senegambia and the Congo for the pedantics amongst you]. Every unsupervised admix run going back to 2009-2011 demonstrates this. Outside of their own interbreeding and drift, they share almost equal allele coverage with populations west of them as they do populations east up until the rainforest. Its then understandable that mixture algorithms will associate a such pristinely intermediate group with a population that after hundreds of years of multigenerational admixture, so surprisingly in keeping with a Atlantic-Congo cline over time, will exhibit this artificial Nigerian component as their dominant ancestry as the overlap is too strong for such rudimentary scripts to detect fine-scale differentiation. I can't overstate how much of what I believe is an intentional error on the part of the authors, is skewering the reality of things. The IBD results speak volumes and it is unfortunate that the idea that these ancestral components are artificial is not communicated. I'd say well enough, but it isn't communicated at all.

This brings me on to something else I've been studying which is commercial tests are almost functioning in a similar manner to the G25 PCA, when it comes to Africans. Even the slightest affinity to NE-Africa on g25 will overstate 'Dinka' like ancestry quite drastically, as any shift toward this cline results in nMonte attaching the intermediate position as the dominant ancestral component, even though we know 'Yoruba' and 'Dinka' are highly differentiated populations, the PCAs do not interpret them as such. This is why g25+nMonte for deep ancestry is a waste of time imho, admixr is still superior in this regard for Africans. We see this with occur with 23andme, particularly post-update: any NE-African shift will be interpreted as SE-African as the artificial cluster is based on a Nilotic-Bantu ancestry stream. While this works in theory, SE-Africans being heavily mixed, it doesn't paint a true picture at all. Prior to their update, AncestryDNA seem to have hit the nail on the head with their Cameroon/Congo cluster. Nigerians are dope and literally at the forefront of everything right now, so who doesn't wanna be Nigerian? But these tests are taking the piss a little bit, the small semblance of Angola/Congo on 23andme for AAs is just...silly. With the new update I'd argue that the Senegambian component is also too low, the intermediary Nigerian component soaking up everything.

*mostly southern/middle belt Nigerians of course

Some good points there, but you may be overestimating the number of Southwestern Bantu who arrived in North America specifically. 40% from Angola/Congo is probably accurate for the Atlantic trade as a whole, considering that at least 3 million, and probably more like 4 million (from Pélissier and Wheeler's Angola) embarked from Angolan ports between the 16th and 19th centuries. However, a very large percentage of them would have ended up in Latin America and the Caribbean, especially Brazil. I'm looking for more direct academic sources, but at first glance I think the numbers from Familysearch (https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/African_American_Place_of_Origin) look pretty reliable, and they give 23% for enslaved Africans brought directly from Nigeria/Cameroon to British North America/U.S. and 25% for Angola/Congo. Of course we have to keep in mind that slaves were moved around the Americas, as previously mentioned.

ThaYamamoto
11-03-2020, 03:35 AM
Some good points there, but you may be overestimating the number of Southwestern Bantu who arrived in North America specifically. 40% from Angola/Congo is probably accurate for the Atlantic trade as a whole, considering that at least 3 million, and probably more like 4 million (from Pélissier and Wheeler's Angola) embarked from Angolan ports between the 16th and 19th centuries. However, a very large percentage of them would have ended up in Latin America and the Caribbean, especially Brazil. I'm looking for more direct academic sources, but at first glanced I think the numbers from Familysearch (https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/African_American_Place_of_Origin) look pretty reliable, and they give 23% for enslaved Africans brought directly from Nigeria/Cameroon to British North America and 25% for Angola/Congo. Of course we have to keep in mind that slaves were moved around the Americas, as previously mentioned.

Yes of course, and I'd be completely cool with this question mark if it wasn't for this:

https://i.imgur.com/0by1VM6.jpg

The genetic evidence of IBD><genetic admixture is just too much. You can see for the US the West-Central/Bantu IBD proportion is still highest, in keeping with disembarkation. If they were mostly transported onwards, the IBD wouldn't be so great. And that's what makes this paper so great but so bad - the methodology behind their IBD analysis is exceptional, but they then buy into the clear admixture artefact simulation.

probably because they collaborated with 23andme and thus interest

Jnuttz87
11-04-2020, 12:52 AM
Was Nigeria the biggest supplier of slaves to the anglo speaking parts of North America? Cause some Caribbean friends of mine have Nigerian as their highest component aswell with one of them scoring 50% Nigerian and looks like an Igbo

I'm wondering if the "Red Sea" proportion on Gedmatch is really African..I scored 2 percent "red sea" and thats the difference between my 82.4 on 23andme and my 80.3 on gedmatch k13. After all the "Red sea" mostly borders African countries :\

drobbah
11-04-2020, 01:53 AM
I'm wondering if the "Red Sea" proportion on Gedmatch is really African..I scored 2 percent "red sea" and thats the difference between my 82.4 on 23andme and my 80.3 on gedmatch k13. After all the "Red sea" mostly borders African countries :\
I'm not sure what it represents (possibly a mixed component) but Somalis usually score 23-27% of that Red Sea component in the K13 calculator

NetNomad
11-04-2020, 06:54 PM
I'm not sure what it represents (possibly a mixed component) but Somalis usually score 23-27% of that Red Sea component in the K13 calculator

In the case of New World Blacks, it is more likely they got most of that component from Southern Europeans or it could be a Neolithic Farmer signal from Northern Europeans in them.

drobbah
11-04-2020, 06:58 PM
In the case of New World Blacks, it is more likely they got most of that component from Southern Europeans or it could be a Neolithic Farmer signal from Northern Europeans in them.
The guy who quoted me is a Jew, so it's probably from his levantine side

Espoir
11-05-2020, 02:44 AM
Hmmm so it seems like Tutsis were a cushitic/nilotic (like the Masaai) group that got absorbed in the bantu expansion..cant wait to see more tutsis results on here :)

myself


1Northeast_African46.92
2Sub-Saharan31.943
3Red_Sea13.74
4East_Med6.3
5Oceanian1.12

Jnuttz87
11-06-2020, 12:42 AM
myself


1Northeast_African46.92
2Sub-Saharan31.943
3Red_Sea13.74
4East_Med6.3
5Oceanian1.12

Thank you! You're full Tutsi?

Espoir
11-06-2020, 02:37 AM
Thank you! You're full Tutsi?

I guess you can call me Tutsi. I don't mind. But, I am Munyamulenge. And yes, full Tutsi.

Jnuttz87
11-06-2020, 02:59 AM
I guess you can call me Tutsi. I don't mind. But, I am Munyamulenge. And yes, full Tutsi.

Wow..ya'll seem more "Cushitic" than the Maasai! Wonder how yall came to speak Bantu languages

Espoir
11-06-2020, 03:19 AM
Wow..ya'll seem more "Cushitic" than the Maasai! Wonder how yall came to speak Bantu languages

Yeah! We tend to have more Cushitic, less Nilotic and more Bantu.
We don't know how that happened. Also, there is no cushitic group in the region.
However, there is this sample they recovered from Ituri(Eastern Congo) with very high Cushitic admixture. Maybe as some group moved southward to Southern Africa, others moved Westward towards Uganda and/or Western Tanzania. This is very likely, since groups like TZ_PN and PN_Elmemteiten are on the East side of lake Victoria when we are on the west Side of tha lake. I don't find it hard to believe they can take the west route.

The funny thing is that we dominated the Great lakes for a long time, yet we speak a Bantu language.

Jnuttz87
11-06-2020, 06:27 PM
Yeah! We tend to have more Cushitic, less Nilotic and more Bantu.
We don't know how that happened. Also, there is no cushitic group in the region.
However, there is this sample they recovered from Ituri(Eastern Congo) with very high Cushitic admixture. Maybe as some group moved southward to Southern Africa, others moved Westward towards Uganda and/or Western Tanzania. This is very likely, since groups like TZ_PN and PN_Elmemteiten are on the East side of lake Victoria when we are on the west Side of tha lake. I don't find it hard to believe they can take the west route.

The funny thing is that we dominated the Great lakes for a long time, yet we speak a Bantu language.

Yea there's not one Cushitic or Nilotic word in yalls languages..so it seems less like a Conquest and more like an assimilation.

Espoir
11-07-2020, 12:09 AM
Yea there's not one Cushitic or Nilotic word in yalls languages..so it seems less like a Conquest and more like an assimilation.
Conquest is a European/colonial concept that, imo, was not well founded in describing what happened in the great lakes. I say this because, I haven't came across an oral account that talks on how Hutus(in the case of Rwanda) were conquered. Which to me means, it didn't happen.

I like to think of it as a language shift. Keep in mind not all Great lakes pastoralists speak Bantu languages. A part of Hema(Congo) speak anilosaharan language.
And even, all the rest speak DIFFERENT Bantu languages, depending on where they currently are located. Yet, we know they are closely related.
My theory is, they take a language of people they settle amongst/nearby.

Alfa
11-07-2020, 03:00 PM
Conquest is a European/colonial concept that, imo, was not well founded in describing what happened in the great lakes. I say this because, I haven't came across an oral account that talks on how Hutus(in the case of Rwanda) were conquered. Which to me means, it didn't happen.

I like to think of it as a language shift. Keep in mind not all Great lakes pastoralists speak Bantu languages. A part of Hema(Congo) speak anilosaharan language.
And even, all the rest speak DIFFERENT Bantu languages, depending on where they currently are located. Yet, we know they are closely related.
My theory is, they take a language of people they settle amongst/nearby.

There are 2 groups of Hema in East RDC. One group of Hema speak a nilosaharian language, the 2nd group of Hema speak Runyankole(Bantoue language) prompting historians to beleive that both groups of Hema in East RDC originally spoke Runyankole bantoue language like their relatives the Hima from Ankole_Uganda

Wangari
11-08-2020, 07:10 PM
There are 2 groups of Hema in East RDC. One group of Hema speak a nilosaharian language, the 2nd group of Hema speak Runyankole(Bantoue language) prompting historians to beleive that both groups of Hema in East RDC originally spoke Runyankole bantoue language like their relatives the Hima from Ankole_Uganda

Does anyone have the gedmatch kit of a Hema?

Jnuttz87
11-08-2020, 10:17 PM
Does anyone have the gedmatch kit of a Hema?

Nah..although I'd imagine they look pretty similar to Tutsi or Maasai.

Jnuttz87
11-08-2020, 11:01 PM
Conquest is a European/colonial concept that, imo, was not well founded in describing what happened in the great lakes..



No, groups fought and conquered each other in Africa too :). They are just cases, like the Tutsi, where it was more of a merger/assimilation more than subjugation. Other groups, such as the Zulu and Fulani (the fulani jihads) it was more about conquest.

drobbah
11-08-2020, 11:25 PM
Conquest is a European/colonial concept that, imo, was not well founded in describing what happened in the great lakes. I say this because, I haven't came across an oral account that talks on how Hutus(in the case of Rwanda) were conquered. Which to me means, it didn't happen.

I like to think of it as a language shift. Keep in mind not all Great lakes pastoralists speak Bantu languages. A part of Hema(Congo) speak anilosaharan language.
And even, all the rest speak DIFFERENT Bantu languages, depending on where they currently are located. Yet, we know they are closely related.
My theory is, they take a language of people they settle amongst/nearby.
We have examples of peoples who language shifted from Cushitic to other languages (Ethio-Semites are a good example) and most retain either a Cushitic substratum or at least some form of Cushitic influence in their newly acquired language.Tutsis & related groups probably spoke a Nilotic language before shifting to a Bantu language which explains the massive amounts of Dinka ancestry in these groups.

gihanga.rwanda
11-09-2020, 12:36 AM
Nah..although I'd imagine they look pretty similar to Tutsi or Maasai.

The Congolese Hema appear to be more West African shifted than Ugandan Himas and Tutsis. I have a Hutu grandmother yet I am slightly more Cushitic admixed than the sampled Hema from the DRC. Its a horrible fit but I can be modeled as 95% Hema and 5% Qatari in Gedmatch.

ThaYamamoto
11-09-2020, 01:35 AM
Does anyone have the gedmatch kit of a Hema?

Unfortunately not but I did find this Hema calc via harappa, I'm sure dodecad or one of the classic calcs involve a hema sample.

Target: Hema
Distance: 2.1276% / 2.12757739 | ADC: 0.25x
36.4 Bulala
21.6 Alur
21.4 Sandawe
11.4 Bantu_Kenya
6.6 Qatari
2.6 Fulani


Target: Hema
Distance: 2.2046% / 2.20461780 | ADC: 0.25x
42.8 Bulala
34.8 Alur
9.8 Ethiopian_Jew
7.0 Xhosa
5.6 Qatari


Target: Hema
Distance: 5.8980% / 5.89799013 | ADC: 0.5x
78.8 Bulala
8.2 Qatari
5.4 Luhya1
5.0 Biaka_Pygmy
2.6 Libya

Target: Hema
Distance: 4.4150% / 4.41501131 | ADC: 0.5x
38.0 Sandawe
30.6 Bulala
30.2 Luhya1
1.0 Yemenese
0.2 Qatari

Distance to: Hema
15.46540979 Alur
16.95632036 Bulala
24.12379945 Sandawe
27.50235444 Luhya1
28.03204773 Luhya2
28.90133561 Bantu_Kenya
31.02056576 Mada
37.81322388 Maasai2
37.82974359 Hadza
41.62755097 Siddi
42.00497352 Maasai1
42.54183941 Fulani
43.96625069 Somali3
46.98460493 Oromo
46.98682901 Xhosa
47.07876167 Wolayta
47.38706575 Afar
47.71318162 Amhara
47.77611328 Ethiopian
47.84974295 Tygray
48.22331386 Ethiopian_Jew
48.71592553 Nguni
48.83611471 Esomali
48.87425805 Somali1
48.93275999 Somali2

Alfa
11-09-2020, 02:36 AM
We have examples of peoples who language shifted from Cushitic to other languages (Ethio-Semites are a good example) and most retain either a Cushitic substratum or at least some form of Cushitic influence in their newly acquired language.Tutsis & related groups probably spoke a Nilotic language before shifting to a Bantu language which explains the massive amounts of Dinka ancestry in these groups.

It is possible some of the proto Hima_Tutsi ancestors may spoken a nilotic panguage, but the thing is there is no evidence of a nilotic substratum in Tutsi bantoue languages.

Runyankole/Runyarwanda/Rundi languages haven't been studied enough yet to make such rush conclusion that there is no cushitic substratum or loan words. There is still disagreement among linguistics experts from Rwanda/Burundi of how Runyarwanda/Rundi should be correctly written(Grammar...) let alone writing about it. Give it time will tell. Things are we dont know yet.

An active member of Anthrogenica may already mentionned it , Tutsi/Hima speak a bantoue languages, and are surrounded by only Bantoue speakers, no cushitic or nilotes near by(except perhaps Northern Hema from RDC who speaks same language as their nilotic neigbours the Alur who seem to lack cushitic influence genetically).

The other most likely scenarion(assuming Tutsi/Hima/Hema ancestors were PNs like people), the extra nilotic admixtures % Tutsi/Hima have on Cushites are same as our West Africa % ~10-20+%.
is highly possible that Tutsi/Hima ancestors mingled with a high West Africa admixed nilotes groups like Central Sudanic.
Based on haplo distribution on 23andme, there are ~12% E-M75(xE-M54) and ~15% A-M13. It is highly likely (the majority of those haplo) Tutsi/Hima may have acquired them from those Central Sudanics in Uganda/East RDC.

I know it is not the 1st telling you this, you have no evidence that Tutsi/Hima spoke nilotic language prior to switching to Bantoue. You are always trying to model Tutsi/Hima as nilotes forgeting the fact that we have significant bantoue admixtures.
Tutsi/Hima are bantoue speakers and are ~10-20+% West Africa admixed. We are completely different from nilotic speakers like Masai(50% PNs+~50%West Africa), or Samburu/Datooga.

Many of us can name our ancestors up to 11 century, no evidence of cushitic contact since at least 11th century. Despite having significant West Africa admixtures, yet we still cluster close to Nilo_Hamites( like Masai/Samburu/Datooga...) who still are absorbing South Cushites groups as we speak.
Why would you beleive our nilotic origin not our bantoue origin theory? Thing is there is no enough evidence right now.

drobbah
11-09-2020, 04:20 AM
I seen some of your Tutsis results, it's clear these people were probably Nilotic who were then absorbed by Bantus.The massive amounts of Dinka despite PNs being in the admixture runs suggests that.I don't know why people want to make it seem like Bantus overran the South Cushitic speakers when it was probably because of the Nilotic expansion south.The ancestors of the Tutsis were probably highly cushitic admixed nilotic people similar to the Samburu but without any East Cushitic influence who then admixed with incoming Bantu farmers.This is the most logical scenario imo

https://i.imgur.com/fDeuTsM.png

Espoir
11-09-2020, 10:01 AM
We have examples of peoples who language shifted from Cushitic to other languages (Ethio-Semites are a good example) and most retain either a Cushitic substratum or at least some form of Cushitic influence in their newly acquired language.Tutsis & related groups probably spoke a Nilotic language before shifting to a Bantu language which explains the massive amounts of Dinka ancestry in these groups.

Thanks for the insight! I usually forget about them Ethiosemites.

About shifting from a Nilosaharan language, you could be right. Thats why I don't like going down the rabbit hole over which language proto-Tutsis spoke. I would be shocked if it was of Niger-Congo or Ethiosemitic/Semitic branch.

Espoir
11-09-2020, 10:19 AM
I seen some of your Tutsis results, it's clear these people were probably Nilotic who were then absorbed by Bantus.The massive amounts of Dinka despite PNs being in the admixture runs suggests that.I don't know why people want to make it seem like Bantus overran the South Cushitic speakers when it was probably because of the Nilotic expansion south.The ancestors of the Tutsis were probably highly cushitic admixed nilotic people similar to the Samburu but without any East Cushitic influence who then admixed with incoming Bantu farmers.This is the most logical scenario imo

https://i.imgur.com/fDeuTsM.png

Abviously, I think you have a point on what you claim. However, I only have an issue with your modeling. I think if we just followed what those guys over at Global 25 suggest, it would make more sense.
In other word, imo, you are OVERFITTING. Try make it simple, use samples from the same historical timeline and use historically relevant groups. As we understand people's movement within Africa, especially the great lakes or East Africa in general.
:thumb:
Btw, your contribution is always appreciated.

gihanga.rwanda
11-09-2020, 05:24 PM
The proto-Tutsi might have spoken a Southern Nilotic language like Datooga (they definitely didn’t speak a language like Masai or Samburu, since Eastern Nilotes are relatively recent arrivals to the region) or a Southern Cushitic language like Iraqw or Gorowa, or some sort of mixed language. These options are all possible. Kinyarwanda hasn’t been extensively studied and I am not aware of any studies that have tried to investigate if Kinyarwanda has any loan words or substratum from one of these other groups. I don’t think this conversation is a productive one to have at the moment given the absence of any relevant literature.

We now know that Tutsi like people lived in the western Great Lakes region for at least 800 years, which is pretty remarkable since this was the cradle of Eastern Bantu peoples. The fact that most of these Tutsi related groups speak a number of different Bantu languages isn’t surprising.

Side note: This model is very overfitted and not particularly useful imho. I am not an expert on G25 but it’s pretty obvious that Tutsis have less Nilotic ancestry than groups like the Masai.

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/09/23/tutsis-are-less-nilotic-than-the-maasai/

drobbah
11-09-2020, 05:30 PM
It's not my model, one of the tutsis I think posted it.I don't have any access to Tutsi coordinates.Why don't you and Espoir post some g25 runs? One basal break down (Natufian +Yoruba + Sudanese7 + various HGs) and another with KEN_N + Bantu + Dinka

ThaYamamoto
11-09-2020, 05:31 PM
The proto-Tutsi might have spoken a Southern Nilotic language like Datooga (they definitely didn’t speak a language like Masai or Samburu, since Eastern Nilotes are relatively recent arrivals to the region) or a Southern Cushitic language like Iraqw or Gorowa, or some sort of mixed language. These options are all possible. Kinyarwanda hasn’t been extensively studied and I am not aware of any studies that have tried to investigate if Kinyarwanda has any loan words or substratum from one of these other groups. I don’t this conversation is a productive one to have at the momenty given the absence of any relevant literature.

We now know that Tutsi like people lived in the western Great Lakes region for at least 800 years, which is pretty remarkable since this was the cradle of Eastern Bantu peoples. The fact that most of these Tutsi related groups speak a number of different Bantu languages isn’t surprising.

Side note: This model is very overfitted and not particularly useful imho. I am not an expert on G25 but it’s pretty obvious that Tutsis have less Nilotic ancestry than groups like the Masai.

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/09/23/tutsis-are-less-nilotic-than-the-maasai/

Yes its pretty obvious. Almost all African samples sit on the Esan/Yoruba cline on the g25 pca and thanks to nMonte, you end up with a decent, very loosely "proxy" service but outside of that these models are just taking folks in circles (Dinka and Yoruba are on the same cline lmfao). I've tried to explain a million times but I guess having the g25 models is a fun shiny toy and its easier to ignore the fact Razib's fstats and admixr runs (for africans only I'm not sh*tting on g25 its amazing for eurasians) are vastly superior and indicative of reality. Here's a fun fact: using Sudanese7 or Kakapel_900 doesn't really change or mean anything. If only folks examined the PCAs and understood what nMonte is doing.

gihanga.rwanda
11-09-2020, 05:36 PM
It's not my model, one of the tutsis I think posted it.I don't have any access to Tutsi coordinates.Why don't you and Espoir post some g25 runs? One basal break down (Natufian +Yoruba + Sudanese7 + various HGs) and another with KEN_N + Bantu + Dinka

Yeah I know I’ve seen it before.

I’ll hand it over to Espoir to test these simpler runs.

drobbah
11-09-2020, 06:03 PM
Thanks for the insight! I usually forget about them Ethiosemites.

About shifting from a Nilosaharan language, you could be right. Thats why I don't like going down the rabbit hole over which language proto-Tutsis spoke. I would be shocked if it was of Niger-Congo or Ethiosemitic/Semitic branch.
Tutsis have literally nothing to do with the Ethio-Semites but I get your point.Its impossible to be a 100% certain what language your ancestors spoke prior to adopting the languages of the Bantu

mpatsibihugu89
11-09-2020, 08:01 PM
Yes its pretty obvious. Almost all African samples sit on the Esan/Yoruba cline on the g25 pca and thanks to nMonte, you end up with a decent, very loosely "proxy" service but outside of that these models are just taking folks in circles (Dink and Yoruba are on the same cline lmfao). I've tried to explain a million times but I guess having the g25 models is a fun shiny toy and its easier to ignore the fact Razib's fstats and admixr runs (for africans only I'm not sh*tting on g25 its amazing for eurasians) are vastly superior and indicative of reality. Here's a fun fact: using Sudanese7 or Kakapel_900 doesn't really change or mean anything. If only folks examined the PCAs and understood what nMonte is doing.

Agreed. I think some people put too much faith in G25 runs. PCA position is way more reliable. The rest , we have to be careful and know its limitations - G25 runs that is.

mpatsibihugu89
11-09-2020, 09:14 PM
Yeah I know I’ve seen it before.

I’ll hand it over to Espoir to test these simpler runs.

This seems simple. And I did use 'Sudanese7'. PN I just used avg.

41072

And this

41073

Wangari
11-09-2020, 10:26 PM
The proto-Tutsi might have spoken a Southern Nilotic language like Datooga (they definitely didn’t speak a language like Masai or Samburu, since Eastern Nilotes are relatively recent arrivals to the region) or a Southern Cushitic language like Iraqw or Gorowa, or some sort of mixed language. These options are all possible. Kinyarwanda hasn’t been extensively studied and I am not aware of any studies that have tried to investigate if Kinyarwanda has any loan words or substratum from one of these other groups. I don’t think this conversation is a productive one to have at the moment given the absence of any relevant literature.

We now know that Tutsi like people lived in the western Great Lakes region for at least 800 years, which is pretty remarkable since this was the cradle of Eastern Bantu peoples. The fact that most of these Tutsi related groups speak a number of different Bantu languages isn’t surprising.

Side note: This model is very overfitted and not particularly useful imho. I am not an expert on G25 but it’s pretty obvious that Tutsis have less Nilotic ancestry than groups like the Masai.

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/09/23/tutsis-are-less-nilotic-than-the-maasai/

Interesting. How much of Tutsi culture matches that of other Southern Cushitic groups? For instance, are any of your current or ancestral rite of passage ceremonies (e.g circumcision) similar to any Nilo-cushitic groups? What word do you use for God, and mother? Do you have an age-set system? What is your ancestral religion like?

Kikuyu (Agikuyu) have borrowed (or retained) many cultural aspects of their nilo-swEurasian ancestors such as the age-set (Riika/Gadaa) system that is nearly identical to that of the Maasai, Kalenjin, and some Cushitic groups.They also venerate the Sycamore (Mukuyu/Odaa) tree which is also sacred among Oromo. In fact the the word "Agikuyu" is derived from their word for the sacred Sycamore tree (Mukuyu), and means "people of the Sycamore tree". Their word for God (Ngai) is borrowed from the Maasai "Enkai" which is in contrast to the widely used "Mulungu" and "Mungu" by their immediate Bantu neighbours such as the Meru and Kamba

drobbah
11-09-2020, 11:15 PM
Where did the Kikuyu get their cushitic admixture from? I'm assuming some of it is East Cushitic like the Masais & Samburu.

Espoir
11-09-2020, 11:38 PM
Interesting. How much of Tutsi culture matches that of other Southern Cushitic groups? For instance, are any of your current or ancestral rite of passage ceremonies (e.g circumcision) similar to any Nilo-cushitic groups? What word do you use for God, and mother? Do you have an age-set system? What is your ancestral religion like?

Kikuyu have borrowed (or retained) many aspects of their nilo-cushitic ancestors such as the age-set (Riika/Gadaa) system that is nearly identical to that of the Maasai, Kalenjin, and some Cushitic groups.They also venerate the Sycamore (Mugumo/Odaa) tree which is also sacred among Oromo. Their word for God is borrowed from the Maasai "Enkai" which is in contrast to the widely used "Mulungu" and "Mungu" by their immediate Bantu neighbours such as the Meru and Kamba

Definitely, no circumcision. One thing I know about Rwanda( Rwandans here are welcomed to add on it) is there was <<Itorero>> which literally translate 'selection center'. This is where young Tutsi boys received education mainly about patriotism and fighting techniques. You can read more about this in the book below. I took out pages that discuss about it.
410694107041071

This is an example of young recruits
41074
So I would say, its quite different from what you described above. Or, it could simply be a version of age set system that was adapted to benefit the kingdom.
About religion, the society was monotheistic, worshipping 'Imana' which is the exact same word(in our native language) used in modern Christian/muslim context of God.
Hope you learnt something.

mpatsibihugu89
11-09-2020, 11:50 PM
Definitely, no circumcision. One thing I know about Rwanda( Rwandans here are welcomed to add on it) is there was <<Itorero>> which literally translate 'selection center'. This is where young Tutsi boys received education mainly about patriotism and fighting techniques. You can read more about this in the book below. I took out pages that discuss about it.
410694107041071

This is an example of young recruits
41074
So I would say, its quite different from what you described above. Or, it could simply be a version of age set system that was adapted to benefit the kingdom.
About religion, the society was monotheistic, worshipping 'Imana' which is the exact same word(in our native language) used in modern Christian/muslim context of God.
Hope you learnt something.

@espoir sharing dietary customs related to pastoralism may also emphasize this shared culture. For instance, I know our ancestors did not eat fish or pork. Also you couldn't drink milk and eat meat the same day. Pastoral customs are more likely to yield similar aspects to our cultures.

gihanga.rwanda
11-10-2020, 12:03 AM
Definitely, no circumcision. One thing I know about Rwanda( Rwandans here are welcomed to add on it) is there was <<Itorero>> which literally translate 'selection center'. This is where young Tutsi boys received education mainly about patriotism and fighting techniques. You can read more about this in the book below. I took out pages that discuss about it.
410694107041071

This is an example of young recruits
41074
So I would say, its quite different from what you described above. Or, it could simply be a version of age set system that was adapted to benefit the kingdom.
About religion, the society was monotheistic, worshipping 'Imana' which is the exact same word(in our native language) used in modern Christian/muslim context of God.
Hope you learnt something.

I’d also add that the word for mother in Kinyarwanda is “mother.”

The Tutsi-Hima probably share some other similarities with other Cushitic admixed groups in the region, but the differences are pretty significant. For example, I’ve always found it interesting that the Tutsi-Hima were organized into highly centralized states, unlike many of these other groups; the few exceptions - Banyamulege, Bigogwe, and Congolese Hema - appear to have rejected centralization within the last 300 years.

Espoir
11-10-2020, 12:19 AM
@espoir sharing dietary customs related to pastoralism may also emphasize this shared culture. For instance, I know our ancestors did not eat fish or pork. Also you couldn't drink milk and eat meat the same day. Pastoral customs are more likely to yield similar aspects to our cultures.

Happy to do that.
Dietary restriction is very weird in my opinion.
1. NO DRINKING MILK AND EAT MEAT AT THE SAME TIME.
2.NO MIXING BLOOD AND MILK. Quite the opposite of what we would expect from a cushitic or Notic group.
3. ANY NON-RUMINANT ANIMAL WAS STRICTLY PROHITIBED. That includes, CHICKEN, PORK, FISH,...

Also, almost exclusive focus on cattlle keeping is another aspect that is quite unique. Although, some very settled like Rwandan, had incorporated agriculture. For us in the Congo, we have people still living today who witnessed zero farming. Only living off milk and some exchanged food for milk like cassava and Maize from neighboring tribes

Lastly, the CATTLE. Other than DNA the next think we would inherit from Southern Cushites or Nilotes is the animal itself. We have the SANGA breed. Yet, modern Cushitic and Kenyan/Tanzanian Nilotes have ZEBU type. UNLESS, these ancient SOUTHERN CUSHITIC or a portion of them had the Sanga breed.
The latter is very plausible because of the distribution of Sanga Cattlle across Eastern and Southern Africa.
Distribution of different African breeds..
41079
The science we have so far says that Southern African Bantus acquired cattle from from The Khoisan who got it from pastoralists of Eastern Africa who moved south. We know who they are, Southern Cushites.
This is my theory guys, we partially descend from a Cushitc group that lest no foot-prints in other pasts of East Africa. And that's the reason we don't exhibit typical cushitic and/or Nilotic customs

Wangari
11-10-2020, 02:23 AM
Definitely, no circumcision. One thing I know about Rwanda( Rwandans here are welcomed to add on it) is there was <<Itorero>> which literally translate 'selection center'. This is where young Tutsi boys received education mainly about patriotism and fighting techniques. You can read more about this in the book below. I took out pages that discuss about it.
410694107041071

This is an example of young recruits
41074
So I would say, its quite different from what you described above. Or, it could simply be a version of age set system that was adapted to benefit the kingdom.
About religion, the society was monotheistic, worshipping 'Imana' which is the exact same word(in our native language) used in modern Christian/muslim context of God.
Hope you learnt something.

I'm fascinated by the Rwandan Intore and Umushagiriro/Umushayayo dances. The arm movements and gestures are unlike any other traditional dances in the world (the arm hyperextensions are truly amazing).
41076
41077

I did manage to find some cultures in Asia who use arm gestures in their dances but nothing quite like these. Do you know the history and meaning of these dances and how widespread is it in the region?

Jnuttz87
11-10-2020, 03:33 AM
It is possible some of the proto Hima_Tutsi ancestors may spoken a nilotic panguage, but the thing is there is no evidence of a nilotic substratum in Tutsi bantoue languages.

Runyankole/Runyarwanda/Rundi languages haven't been studied enough yet to make such rush conclusion that there is no cushitic substratum or loan words. There is still disagreement among linguistics experts from Rwanda/Burundi of how Runyarwanda/Rundi should be correctly written(Grammar...) let alone writing about it. Give it time will tell. Things are we dont know yet.

An active member of Anthrogenica may already mentionned it , Tutsi/Hima speak a bantoue languages, and are surrounded by only Bantoue speakers, no cushitic or nilotes near by(except perhaps Northern Hema from RDC who speaks same language as their nilotic neigbours the Alur who seem to lack cushitic influence genetically).

The other most likely scenarion(assuming Tutsi/Hima/Hema ancestors were PNs like people), the extra nilotic admixtures % Tutsi/Hima have on Cushites are same as our West Africa % ~10-20+%.
is highly possible that Tutsi/Hima ancestors mingled with a high West Africa admixed nilotes groups like Central Sudanic.
Based on haplo distribution on 23andme, there are ~12% E-M75(xE-M54) and ~15% A-M13. It is highly likely (the majority of those haplo) Tutsi/Hima may have acquired them from those Central Sudanics in Uganda/East RDC.

I know it is not the 1st telling you this, you have no evidence that Tutsi/Hima spoke nilotic language prior to switching to Bantoue. You are always trying to model Tutsi/Hima as nilotes forgeting the fact that we have significant bantoue admixtures.
Tutsi/Hima are bantoue speakers and are ~10-20+% West Africa admixed. We are completely different from nilotic speakers like Masai(50% PNs+~50%West Africa), or Samburu/Datooga.

Many of us can name our ancestors up to 11 century, no evidence of cushitic contact since at least 11th century. Despite having significant West Africa admixtures, yet we still cluster close to Nilo_Hamites( like Masai/Samburu/Datooga...) who still are absorbing South Cushites groups as we speak.
Why would you beleive our nilotic origin not our bantoue origin theory? Thing is there is no enough evidence right now.

Yea it's pretty weird that immigrant groups lose their original language without a trace..im guessing the Tutsi were a bantu speaking group all along..who absorbed cushitic/nilotic peoples.

Wangari
11-10-2020, 04:48 AM
Where did the Kikuyu get their cushitic admixture from? I'm assuming some of it is East Cushitic like the Masais & Samburu.

It doesn't seem to be the case since Maasai and other rift-valley nilo-cushitic groups have Ken_PN and TZ_PN when a deep layer run is conducted. Not even KenPastoral_IA features in Kikuyu which surprised me because their oral tradition mentions significant absorption of Ogiek (Dorobo) and intermarriage with Maasai! Kikuyu also appear to have the highest percentage of PPNC and San admixture compared to some of these groups - it's minor but still features consistently in all the Ayodo samples.

41075

Espoir
11-10-2020, 05:38 AM
I'm fascinated by the Rwandan Intore dance. The arm movements and gestures are unlike any other traditional dance in the world. I did manage to find some cultures in Asia who use arm gestures in their dances but nothing quite like Intore. Do you know the history of this dance and how widespread is it in the region?

Are you meaning women or men. Cause, intore is more specifically applied to men. Which is a warrior dance! Women are mimicking cows' horn shapes(obsession with cows. Lol)and some traditional practices.

mpatsibihugu89
11-10-2020, 02:59 PM
Happy to do that.
Dietary restriction is very weird in my opinion.
1. NO DRINKING MILK AND EAT MEAT AT THE SAME TIME.
2.NO MIXING BLOOD AND MILK. Quite the opposite of what we would expect from a cushitic or Notic group.
3. ANY NON-RUMINANT ANIMAL WAS STRICTLY PROHITIBED. That includes, CHICKEN, PORK, FISH,...

Also, almost exclusive focus on cattlle keeping is another aspect that is quite unique. Although, some very settled like Rwandan, had incorporated agriculture. For us in the Congo, we have people still living today who witnessed zero farming. Only living off milk and some exchanged food for milk like cassava and Maize from neighboring tribes

Lastly, the CATTLE. Other than DNA the next think we would inherit from Southern Cushites or Nilotes is the animal itself. We have the SANGA breed. Yet, modern Cushitic and Kenyan/Tanzanian Nilotes have ZEBU type. UNLESS, these ancient SOUTHERN CUSHITIC or a portion of them had the Sanga breed.
The latter is very plausible because of the distribution of Sanga Cattlle across Eastern and Southern Africa.
Distribution of different African breeds..
41079
The science we have so far says that Southern African Bantus acquired cattle from from The Khoisan who got it from pastoralists of Eastern Africa who moved south. We know who they are, Southern Cushites.
This is my theory guys, we partially descend from a Cushitc group that lest no foot-prints in other pasts of East Africa. And that's the reason we don't exhibit typical cushitic and/or Nilotic customs

Genetics of the different cattle breeds could definitely help us. Quick glance tells me that later Nilote migrations wiped out the cross breed 'Sanga' which PN likely had.

gihanga.rwanda
11-10-2020, 03:48 PM
It doesn't seem to be the case since Maasai and other rift-valley nilo-cushitic groups have Ken_PN and TZ_PN when a deep layer run is conducted. Not even KenPastoral_IA features in Kikuyu which surprised me because their oral tradition mentions significant absorption of Ogiek (Dorobo) and intermarriage with Maasai! Kikuyu also appear to have the highest percentage of PPNC and San admixture compared to some of these groups - it's minor but still features consistently in all the Ayodo samples.

41075

@ ThaYamamoto already made this point but G25 seems to have a difficult time distinguishing Dinka/Sudanese ancestry from Yoruba/West African ancestry; it tends to inflate Sudanese ancestry in SE Africans at the expense of West African ancestry.

mpatsibihugu89
11-10-2020, 05:03 PM
@ ThaYamamoto already made this point but G25 seems to have a difficult time distinguishing Dinka/Sudanese ancestry from Yoruba/West African ancestry; it tends to inflate Sudanese ancestry in SE Africans at the expense of West African ancestry.

Deep layer runs should correctly show elevated Dinka-like or AEA ancestry. We have 3 sources for it : 1. From PN like ancestry,2. Extra Nilosaharan from Pastoral Iron age&3. Nilosaharan from Eastern bantus (e.g Luhya).

G25 obviously can't tell which is which. Thats why it's got to be a historically informed Run with G25. I wouldn't expect or trust G25 calculators to uncover any sort of trace ancestry for instance.

Alfa
11-13-2020, 02:44 AM
The proto-Tutsi might have spoken a Southern Nilotic language like Datooga (they definitely didn’t speak a language like Masai or Samburu, since Eastern Nilotes are relatively recent arrivals to the region) or a Southern Cushitic language like Iraqw or Gorowa, or some sort of mixed language. These options are all possible. Kinyarwanda hasn’t been extensively studied and I am not aware of any studies that have tried to investigate if Kinyarwanda has any loan words or substratum from one of these other groups. I don’t think this conversation is a productive one to have at the moment given the absence of any relevant literature.

We now know that Tutsi like people lived in the western Great Lakes region for at least 800 years, which is pretty remarkable since this was the cradle of Eastern Bantu peoples. The fact that most of these Tutsi related groups speak a number of different Bantu languages isn’t surprising.

Side note: This model is very overfitted and not particularly useful imho. I am not an expert on G25 but it’s pretty obvious that Tutsis have less Nilotic ancestry than groups like the Masai.

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/09/23/tutsis-are-less-nilotic-than-the-maasai/

Due to interaction between Southern Cushites and Bantoue in Tanzania, it can be confusing to know which ones borrowed words from who. For those who speak North East bantoue, it would be easier to recognize some words.

Like the word for

"father or ancestor "Taata" in Iraqw, and " in Rundi/Runyarwanda is " Daata".

Spirits imizimu in Runyarwanda_Rundi
Irimu in Proto West Rift South Cushitic.

" Muusa(Pestle in Iraqw) and in Runyarwanda_Rundi(urusyo): to pestle(kuusya).

Muski(broken hoe in Iraqw): isuka(hoe in Runyarwanda/Rundi).

Taango(deserted homestead in Iraqw).
Itoongo(abandoned/deserted land in Runyarwanda_Rundi). Please note that for "Taango" is suspected to have been borrowed from Swahili which I found less convincing since Swahili is a mixed Bantoue language as well.

These South Cushites seem to have something local in their language that is unique to them.
Here is a screenshot of some words used by the South Cushites from Tanzania and Rangi(one of the few Bantoue languages that's been very cushitic influenced):

41124

In Rwanda, there may be obvious Pastoralists influence from cushitic like cushitic tents/mats(@Awale posted a comment about it), we have those type of materials/mats in traditional Rwanda. I actually thought it wasn't cushitc n origin since it is widespread in South East Africa.

Finally, in the most recent paper, the Matangai _Turu(750 years old lady from Ituri_Nort East RDC where Hema currently live) was found to be ~70% Luxmanda + ~30% Mbuti like. It seems strange that she doesn't show West Africa/ extra Dinka like Hema/Hima/Tutsi. If it is true, then It is likely possible Tutsi/Hima descended from people like Matangai Turu who mixed with Uganda Central Sudanic to produce modern Tutsi/Hima.

drobbah
11-13-2020, 03:16 AM
Iraqw has Bantu (swahili) loanwords and what seems to be a Datooga substrate.Those common words need to be investigated instead of automatically assuming to be of South Cushitic origin.

swhl
11-13-2020, 05:04 PM
Malagasy match! 411354113641134

gihanga.rwanda
11-15-2020, 11:36 PM
Do we have the coordinates from the Shona speakers? They live in close proximity to Zulu speakers who have significant indigenous southern African ancestry (at a rate of 25%) but I suspect that Shona speakers will be more West African shifted, similar to Zambians and Mozambicans.

ThaYamamoto
11-16-2020, 04:31 PM
Do we have the coordinates from the Shona speakers? They live in close proximity to Zulu speakers who have significant indigenous southern African ancestry (at a rate of 25%) but I suspect that Shona speakers will be more West African shifted, similar to Zambians and Mozambicans.

A bunch of the Mozambican samples I had uploaded are actually part of greater Zimbabwean ethnic groups and you're right, have very little San ancestry if any at all.

SWAHILLI_PRINCE16
11-16-2020, 05:43 PM
MDLP world - Vahaduo

Target: Me
Distance: 0.4259% / 0.42592426
23.6 Mandenka
22.8 Yoruba
15.0 Bantu
13.0 Ethiopian
7.4 San
6.8 Lemba
5.2 Biaka_Pygmies
2.4 Jew_India
2.4 Jew_Ethiopia
1.0 Indian
0.4 Saudi

mpatsibihugu89
11-18-2020, 11:43 PM
It doesn't seem to be the case since Maasai and other rift-valley nilo-cushitic groups have Ken_PN and TZ_PN when a deep layer run is conducted. Not even KenPastoral_IA features in Kikuyu which surprised me because their oral tradition mentions significant absorption of Ogiek (Dorobo) and intermarriage with Maasai! Kikuyu also appear to have the highest percentage of PPNC and San admixture compared to some of these groups - it's minor but still features consistently in all the Ayodo samples.

41075

Prendergast 2019 said otherwise. These so called deep layer runs don't work well for some people with different ancestries.

[Quote] We obtain improved fits for the Iron
Age individuals and for present-day Kenyan Nilotic- and
Bantu-speaking groups in this framework: the PIA cluster
can be fitted as a mixture of ~57% PN-related and ~43% Su-
dan-related ancestry, while the Deloraine Farm individual
can be modeled as a mixture of ~29% PN-related and ~71%
western African-related ancestry (Fig. 3). Similar models also
yield good fits for present-day Maasai (~47% PN-related and
~53% Sudan-related) and Kikuyu (~40% PN-related and
~60% western African-related), while Luhya can be fit as a
mixture of Sudan-related (~41%) and western African-related
(~59%) ancestry (Fig. 3).[quote]

maroco
11-22-2020, 12:37 AM
41321
This is my Ftdna results I didn’t test directly with them this was my ancestrydna file. I’m waiting for nebula to release deep ancestry when they do I will upload my results from them as well

drobbah
11-22-2020, 02:07 AM
41321
This is my Ftdna results I didn’t test directly with them this was my ancestrydna file. I’m waiting for nebula to release deep ancestry when they do I will upload my results from them as well

2% Horner...interesting!

maroco
11-22-2020, 09:51 AM
2% Horner...interesting!

In every autosomal test I’ve done I get Horner, I’m not sure if it’s legit or not

drobbah
11-22-2020, 09:03 PM
In every autosomal test I’ve done I get Horner, I’m not sure if it’s legit or not
PM me your co-ordinates brother.It'll be interesting if true as we have a confirmed Horner presence in the Maghreb with a Libyan individual with a recent Somali lineage and we also have evidence of Maghrebis in the Horn as stated in the Futuh Al Habasha in the 16th century.

drobbah
12-10-2020, 12:22 AM
An Arab Somalilander from Berbera, all her grandparents as far as she is knows where born in Somaliland as well.Her mtdna haplogroup is M1a1 (could be Somali or Yemeni who knows)

41626

My second cousin who shares a direct paternal great grandfather with me.Her mother claims to be half Oromo & half Yemeni.Her maternal haplogroup is L2a1d and the paternal haplogroup of her father would be mine.

41627

SWAHILLI_PRINCE16
12-14-2020, 11:49 AM
The person said he or she is Egyptian Sudanese
41710

gihanga.rwanda
12-14-2020, 12:17 PM
The person said he or she is Egyptian Sudanese
41710

They must be because 23andme was able to assign specific locations to their ancestry.

Hurricane
12-15-2020, 08:32 PM
Old results
https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/1057594130/23andme/MY23ANDME2020.png

New results
https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/1057594130/23andme/MY23ANDME2020UPDATE.png

Atlas
12-16-2020, 07:50 PM
These are my own results before and after V5.9. I feel that V5.2 was probably the more accurate of the two.

Old Version
41775
41776
41777

Updated Version
41778
41779

drobbah
12-16-2020, 08:07 PM
Got my results, I'm now officially 100% Somali.It seems the new update got rid of the Ethiopian component in me and majority of my regular Somali matches.They also updated my second cousin results, her Arab percentage & Ethio percentage now aligns with her mother's claims of being half Oromo/Yemeni.Even the Arab Somalilander had her Somali percentage jump from 13% to 18% and I suspect that the 3% Ethio is probably just Somali ancestry as well.I think this is the best & most accurate Somali component that 23&me has ever had.This will help many of those mixed children & descendants of Somali men in the diaspora to recognize their roots

https://i.imgur.com/ob8MJeQ.jpg

Atlas
12-16-2020, 08:32 PM
Got my results, I'm now officially 100% Somali.It seems the new update got rid of the Ethiopian component in me and majority of my regular Somali matches.They also updated my second cousin results, her Arab percentage & Ethio percentage now aligns with her mother's claims of being half Oromo/Yemeni.

I've seen this too, the disappearance of the Ethiopian percentage many Somalis got, mine included. I don't know how to feel about it, but I don't think I like it as it seemed reasonable, especially because I have (ethnically Somali) family from there and it doesn't seem wild to imagine there would be some degree of intermixing. I imagined that over thousands of years people that border each other would to some extent, and northern Somalis have been under some of the same Sultanates and Empires as many non-Somali Ethiopians/Djiboutians, i.e. the Afar, and the Harla whose disappearance leaves interesting questions- are they living on in the Harari, are they ancestors of some Somalis, did they all vanish in the Ethiopian-Adal war?

Interestingly, I keep seeing more and more Somali 23andMe results on Reddit give small (<1%) percentages of Southern East African to Somalis, though I haven't seen any northerners get any yet (instead I've only come across traces of South Asian and Arabian). Perhaps they won't because of the distance to bantu groups, who are largely in the south IIRC? I am curious to see if this links in with that other study which showed some Niger-Congo ancestry in their Somali group, or if that's something else altogether.

drobbah
12-16-2020, 08:57 PM
I've seen this too, the disappearance of the Ethiopian percentage many Somalis got, mine included. I don't know how to feel about it, but I don't think I like it as it seemed reasonable, especially because I have (ethnically Somali) family from there and it doesn't seem wild to imagine there would be some degree of intermixing. I imagined that over thousands of years people that border each other would to some extent, and northern Somalis have been under some of the same Sultanates and Empires as many non-Somali Ethiopians/Djiboutians, i.e. the Afar, and the Harla whose disappearance leaves interesting questions- are they living on in the Harari, are they ancestors of some Somalis, did they all vanish in the Ethiopian-Adal war?

Well I have heightened Mota ancestry probably from an Oromo source and even I don't get any Ethio, I think they included the Kenyan Somalis who are admixed with Boranas.So those Somalis from regions where there were significant interactions with other Horner ethnicities will probably get either no ethiopian ancestry or smaller than they are supposed to get it.Surprisingly enough I have more than a handful of Habesha/Oromo matches and so does my father on AncestryDNa but I lost my ethio percentage in this new update.

I think the only Somalis that have Ethio ancestry are the Cisse who neighbour Afars & Oromos,those dual identities clans claimed by both Oromos & Somalis such as the Gurgure,Akisho & Jaarso.The other Somalis like myself who probably received Ethiopian ancestry via those dual identity clans live in the agricultural breadbasket of Ethiopia & Somaliland (strangely enough it encompasses what used to be the Adal Sultanate).I doubt those Ethiopian nomadic Somalis have any Ethiopian ancestry especially Somali clans such as the Garxajis,non Jibriil Abokor Sacad Muuse,Ogaden,Harti,Marexaan & Habar Gidir.

Settled Agricultural Somalis live in the most densely populated areas of Somaliland & Somali region of Ethiopia and these are the regions where I come from.I think one other Somali member is from the same region as me and he also has heightened Mota ancestry compared to other Somalis who seem to lack it.As for Somalilanders, those who live in Maroodi Jeex excluding Gabiley region and east of Marood Jeex don't seem to have any heightened mota ancestry (my mother is one of them).

https://i.imgur.com/DNjsHz7.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MPmBOBc.jpg





Interestingly, I keep seeing more and more Somali 23andMe results on Reddit give small (<1%) percentages of Southern East African to Somalis, though I haven't seen any northerners get any yet (instead I've only come across traces of South Asian and Arabian). Perhaps they won't because of the distance to bantu groups, who are largely in the south IIRC? I am curious to see if this links in with that other study which showed some Niger-Congo ancestry in their Somali group, or if that's something else altogether. I got in argument over the potential for some southerners to be admixed with Bantus.It's a touchy subject for some of these southerners as they think we are implying this for political reasons.One user suggested it might be South Cushitic related noise but who knows lol

Awale
12-16-2020, 10:04 PM
I got in argument over the potential for some southerners to be admixed with Bantus.It's a touchy subject for some of these southerners as they think we are implying this for political reasons.One user suggested it might be South Cushitic related noise but who knows lol

I have quite a few southern matches myself and have never really noticed a pattern of anything "Bantu" in them before this new update on 23andme. All I ever noticed was elevated "Ethiopian/Eritrean" admixture from time to time and even the occasional person with noise level South Asian. NetNomad got too heated in that thread but what I've seen from my experience is that outside of some of those far southern fringe clans in areas like Kenya; Darods, Hawiyes and even Rahanweyn I've seen in the south seem pretty much identical to northerners. Heck, my own mother is basically half Reer Koonfur with her maternal grandmother, the source of my N1a1a3 (https://yfull.com/mtree/N1a1a3/), being of the Rahanweyn and a Maay-Maay speaker and at most all I seem to show is what I suspect is "Ethiopian" admixture that I seem to have gotten from my mother's side whom many Habeshas I got well-acquainted with back in my ABF days (like Lank) tended to point out looked rather Highlander in appearance. My mother often confuses Ethiopians when she tells them she's not "Tigray". :lol:

My "Ethio" shift is weird, though. It shows itself more on the MENA side than through Mota ancestry. I have weird, elevated affinities toward IBM and Maghrebis and am on the high-end for MENA ancestry among Somalis (+2% above every average). Bit busy nowadays but I'll do a rundown sometime of my results for you guys when I have the time.

drobbah
12-17-2020, 03:45 AM
I have quite a few southern matches myself and have never really noticed a pattern of anything "Bantu" in them before this new update on 23andme. All I ever noticed was elevated "Ethiopian/Eritrean" admixture from time to time and even the occasional person with noise level South Asian.

I think we need more samples especially among the Rahanweyn and some of the Southern Hawiye (Abgaal,Ajuuraan,gaaljecel) before we can definitively say there is no Bantu admixture in certain Southerners.There was a Raxanweyn who was mostly autosomally Somali with a Bantu paternal haplogroup.I think some people (not you ofcourse) don't like the idea of bantu admixture as they are seen as socially inferior and might open some clans to ridicule and might prove the rumors other Somalis used to make about those clans.I think stories about certain admixture is less to do with ridiculing a certain clan but is more of a collective memory of southern society.

For example I come from a subclan of Habar Awal that was always ridiculed and called Oromos/Qoti (also seen as socially inferior) whenever we get in heated arguments with other Isaaqs including other Habar Awal.The rumors although mostly false as I am paternally Somali and mostly Somali autosomally seems to be kind of true.From what Mnemonics can tell I have 4% Mota, my father has 8% and my paternal grandmother probably had 14%-16% Mota ancestry (Oromo levels) and she was pure Somali according to genealogy (Jibriil Abokor and Bah Gob mix)

most all I seem to show is what I suspect is "Ethiopian" admixture that I seem to have gotten from my mother's side whom many Habeshas I got well-acquainted with back in my ABF days (like Lank) tended to point out looked rather Highlander in appearance. My mother often confuses Ethiopians when she tells them she's not "Tigray". :lol:

I've had an uncountable amount of interactions with Eritreans,Amharas,Oromos & Hararis who thought my father and I were from there ethnic group.Always thought it was just a coincidence considering a decent percentage of Somalis like your mother could blend in among the Highlanders.


My "Ethio" shift is weird, though. It shows itself more on the MENA side than through Mota ancestry. I have weird, elevated affinities toward IBM and Maghrebis and am on the high-end for MENA ancestry among Somalis (+2% above every average). Bit busy nowadays but I'll do a rundown sometime of my results for you guys when I have the time. It's probably Arab ancestry if there isn't any increased Mota ancestry and considering the only way Somalis could get Ethio ancestry is via the Oromos, it's almost impossible for there not to be a Mota signal.

Considering your clan has had extensive contacts with the Mehri people and even the Arab Saleh people who I think live among your clan in Eastern Sanaag & Puntland.Perhaps the extra MENA is from there?

Hurricane
12-17-2020, 10:54 AM
Old results
https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/1057594130/23andme/A23ANDME2020.png

New results
https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/1057594130/23andme/A23ANDME2020UPDATE.png

Hurricane
12-17-2020, 10:57 AM
Old results
https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/1057594130/23andme/S23ANDME2020.png

New results
https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/1057594130/23andme/S23ANDME2020UPDATE.png

GabrielZelalem
12-17-2020, 12:57 PM
other Isaaqs including other Habar Awal.The rumors although mostly false as I am paternally Somali and mostly Somali autosomally seems to be kind of true.From what Mnemonics can tell I have 4% Mota, my father has 8% and my paternal grandmother probably had 14%-16% Mota ancestry (Oromo levels) and she was pure Somali according to genealogy (Jibriil Abokor and Bah Gob mix)

Is there any historical event that can make this claim sound sort of right ? I've always wondered why people say so

Atlas
12-17-2020, 05:04 PM
Is there any historical event that can make this claim sound sort of right ? I've always wondered why people say so

I'd imagine it would be similar to the circumstances which enabled different subclans of a clan to have different paternal haplogroups though they should have the same paternal ancestors according to their knowledge of their lineage. I think it was said somewhere in this forum that some clans could have come about in a structure akin to federations and one group could have been absorbed by another. Perhaps after the Oromo migrations some groups of Oromos were 'adopted' into Somali clans like some of the Harla are said to have been in Regional Dynamics of Inter-ethnic Conflicts in the Horn of Africa: An Analysis of the Afar-Somali Conflict in Ethiopia and Djibouti:
https://d-nb.info/1020383542/34 (Pg 60).

drobbah
12-17-2020, 09:21 PM
Is there any historical event that can make this claim sound sort of right ? I've always wondered why people say so
The Eastern Oromo migrations in the 16th century is the most probable historical event and these Akishos were probably proud Oromos but over the centuries of intermarriage with the Somali clans of the area I highlighted in my earlier post caused many of them to take up the Somali identity although Somalis don't forget things like that quite easy lol.


Eastern Oromo expansion

https://i.imgur.com/LPcl8wM.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Ro7cR35.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/f9Qm0tf.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/JnA1pJv.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/cX79iRI.jpg





It is well known that many clans in the agropastoralist regions of Ethiopia & Somaliland intermarried with these incomers.Jibriil Abokor unlike clans like the Geri for example don't border them but somehow these Akisho and their women made their way to our region of Ethiopia/Somaliland.Here's a source discussing the reer Yoonis branch of Jibriil Abokor who live on the SL border to just east of Jigjiga intermarrying with Akisho,although I must state as the reer dalal,reer xareed and my clan (descendants Yoonis's brother Cali and dominate the clan)also have intermarried with Akisho/Jaarso & Gurgure who even have city council seats in Gabiley city.


https://i.imgur.com/YxG7wWd.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/lE8BBam.jpg





I'd imagine it would be similar to the circumstances which enabled different subclans of a clan to have different paternal haplogroups though they should have the same paternal ancestors according to their knowledge of their lineage. I think it was said somewhere in this forum that some clans could have come about in a structure akin to federations and one group could have been absorbed by another. Perhaps after the Oromo migrations some groups of Oromos were 'adopted' into Somali clans like some of the Harla are said to have been in Regional Dynamics of Inter-ethnic Conflicts in the Horn of Africa: An Analysis of the Afar-Somali Conflict in Ethiopia and Djibouti:
https://d-nb.info/1020383542/34 (Pg 60).
The sedentary farming Ethio-Semitic speaking Harla & Adaris once the Oromo attacked fled toward the Somalis & Afars while others fled toward Oromo controlled area and became assimilated as well.

Deftextra
12-17-2020, 10:21 PM
Maternal 1/2 uncle (We share the same mt haplogroup) and second cousin. Both are 1/2 Somali 1/2 Benadiri
On the left my uncle is E-V32 and on the right is r1a1a.

Did not manged to get a full expanded picture but my uncles African results was mostly Somali + 20% Ethiopian Eritrean.

41793

GabrielZelalem
12-17-2020, 11:04 PM
It is well known that many clans in the agropastoralist regions of Ethiopia & Somaliland intermarried with these incomers.Jibriil Abokor unlike clans like the Geri for example don't border them but somehow these Akisho and their women made their way to our region of Ethiopia/Somaliland.Here's a source discussing the reer Yoonis branch of Jibriil Abokor who live on the SL border to just east of Jigjiga intermarrying with Akisho,although I must state as the reer dalal,reer xareed and my clan (descendants Yoonis's brother Cali and dominate the clan)also have intermarried with Akisho/Jaarso & Gurgure who even have city council seats in Gabiley city.

I have Gurgura and Madigan ancestry from maroodi jeex on my mom's side ( JB ) , and akisho on my father's ( HB ) side of the fam, but its quite recent. Both my parents claim these tribes belong to the dir family tho

drobbah
12-17-2020, 11:23 PM
It is well known that many clans in the agropastoralist regions of Ethiopia & Somaliland intermarried with these incomers.Jibriil Abokor unlike clans like the Geri for example don't border them but somehow these Akisho and their women made their way to our region of Ethiopia/Somaliland.Here's a source discussing the reer Yoonis branch of Jibriil Abokor who live on the SL border to just east of Jigjiga intermarrying with Akisho,although I must state as the reer dalal,reer xareed and my clan (descendants Yoonis's brother Cali and dominate the clan)also have intermarried with Akisho/Jaarso & Gurgure who even have city council seats in Gabiley city.

I have Gurgura and Madigan ancestry from maroodi jeex on my mom's side (JB) , and akisho on my father's (HB) side of the fam, but its quite recent. Both my parents claim these tribes belong to the dir family tho
You have midgaan ancestry? Never heard of any Isaaqs intermarrying with them since they are considered social outcasts.

GabrielZelalem
12-17-2020, 11:49 PM
You have midgaan ancestry? Never heard of any Isaaqs intermarrying with them since they are considered social outcasts.

No not Midgan. Madigan is a Dir tribe, not to be confused with the gabooye one. They have a small xafad in Hargeisa according to my mom.

Don Felipe
12-20-2020, 12:54 PM
[U]Old results

Thanks a lot for sharing! Very useful to see that "Broadly West African" is on the increase for both you and your parents. It appears to go against the overall homogenizing trend with this update. Probably it's pinpointing West African DNA from the interior, possibly central Sahel, northern Nigeria? Currently undersampled or absent within 23andme's reference database. I have seen such high scores also for a few northern Nigerians I am sharing with. Not an optimal outcome ofcourse but IMO still better than forcibly assigning to second-best categories.

Do you feel that your & your parents' North African%'s might now be more accurate?

See below for a recently updated northern Nigerian result. She used to have a much higher "Ghanaian, Liberian & Sierra Leonean" score of 16.5% previously.

https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2020/12/ng-north.jpg

Hurricane
12-27-2020, 07:54 PM
Thanks a lot for sharing! Very useful to see that "Broadly West African" is on the increase for both you and your parents. It appears to go against the overall homogenizing trend with this update. Probably it's pinpointing West African DNA from the interior, possibly central Sahel, northern Nigeria? Currently undersampled or absent within 23andme's reference database. I have seen such high scores also for a few northern Nigerians I am sharing with. Not an optimal outcome ofcourse but IMO still better than forcibly assigning to second-best categories.

Do you feel that your & your parents' North African%'s might now be more accurate?

See below for a recently updated northern Nigerian result. She used to have a much higher "Ghanaian, Liberian & Sierra Leonean" score of 16.5% previously.

https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2020/12/ng-north.jpg

Yes the West African is probably from Chad, Northern Nigeria or even Mali.

We only have a few SSA matches (like 2 or 3) on all the plateforms. Our closest matches are North Africans, then come the Americans (Whites & latinos), Europeans and Middle Easterns.

As for the north african %, i guess its more accurate now.

ThaYamamoto
12-29-2020, 04:08 PM
Yes the West African is probably from Chad, Northern Nigeria or even Mali.

We only have a few SSA matches (like 2 or 3) on all the plateforms. Our closest matches are North Africans, then come the Americans (Whites & latinos), Europeans and Middle Easterns.

As for the north african %, i guess its more accurate now.

Hey brother, so you don't get many Afro-Americans/Jamaicans either?

Angoliga
12-30-2020, 02:26 AM
Curious what other Great-Lakers received for their 23andme update:

https://i.imgur.com/oXedgbY.png


A lot of my "Sudanese" seems to have been subbed for "Broadly Congolese & Southern East African"

@Don Felipe, have you observed any ancestral patterns in your database for "Broadly Sub-Saharan African"?

Wasn't at all pleased with the broad-categories from this update, would've preferred higher specified regions/ancestry after all these versions.
I'd imagine my African Hunter-Gatherer affinity would be >~5% at least... minor Ghana/Liberia/SierraLeone signals seem pretty random ... this update seems like a complete stab in the wrong direction for my ancestry


*I've decided to finally make a formal complaint this time around rather than just bickering, hopefully some constructive feedback from more East-African users will eventually lead to more comprehensive results.

mpatsibihugu89
12-30-2020, 03:56 AM
Curious what other Great-Lakers received for their 23andme update:

https://i.imgur.com/oXedgbY.png


A lot of my "Sudanese" seems to have been subbed for "Broadly Congolese & Southern East African"

@Don Felipe, have you observed any ancestral patterns in your database for "Broadly Sub-Saharan African"?

Wasn't at all pleased with the broad-categories from this update, would've preferred higher specified regions/ancestry after all these versions.
I'd imagine my African Hunter-Gatherer affinity would be >~5% at least... minor Ghana/Liberia/SierraLeone signals seem pretty random ... this update seems like a complete stab in the wrong direction for my ancestry


*I've decided to finally make a formal complaint this time around rather than just bickering, hopefully some constructive feedback from more East-African users will eventually lead to more comprehensive results.

My sudanese also decreased by like 20% to the benefit of my 'Ethiopian and Erithrean' & my Southern East African.

42162

Justnotyou
01-01-2021, 09:35 PM
It doesn't seem to be the case since Maasai and other rift-valley nilo-cushitic groups have Ken_PN and TZ_PN when a deep layer run is conducted. Not even KenPastoral_IA features in Kikuyu which surprised me because their oral tradition mentions significant absorption of Ogiek (Dorobo) and intermarriage with Maasai! Kikuyu also appear to have the highest percentage of PPNC and San admixture compared to some of these groups - it's minor but still features consistently in all the Ayodo samples.

41075

There are several hypothesis that might explain the significant Horner & Nile valley admixtures in some of the NE bantus.

Either two or more basal/ancestral bantu communities had contact with either east African groups through time though not all current NE bantus have this admixture so this might only be true for these selected groups like the communities in South western Uganda, rundi-rwanda-congo tutsis & hema, the chagga, mbugu of northern TZ, Kikuyu, embu, Meru, Kamba, Taita of Central-South Kenya.

Another hypothesis would probably entertain the possibility of the phenomena occurring more recently say 500 or less ybp, this could be the case with Central Kenyans like the Kikuyu who also conveniently attained most of their current lands fairly recently in post independence, with it they most likely absorbed/assimilated many HG groups like the dorobos & some foraging Kalenjins but their numbers as is to be expected among foraging communities is negligible when considering the admixture found in the entire Kikuyu community on average.

Intermarriage with other admixed farmers like the Meru/Embu/Kamba sounds sane enough, & maybe with some farming Kalenjins, traders/merchants even from the Maa... since farmers almost always have the numbers advantage population wise in comparison to nomads whether forager or herders, it won't make much sense for a herding community like the maa to be solely responsible for this admixture in all central Kenyans with a Horner/Nile valley shift
yet they weren't completely absorbed themselves or at least we should see them become similarly more west African shifted as the central Kenyans became more nilocushitic, as can be seen in other large communities in the region like the Luo-luhya relationship with both groups becoming more similar with respect to audna with each new generation even in rwanda-rundi, the hutu-twa-tutsi relationship makes more sense than one where the nomadic twa & tutsis were causing the audna of the hutu to change drastically without any correlating difference to their own audna unless maybe through rape coupled with most male hutus being eunuchs, still the farmers under normal circumstances whether assimilated or doing the assimilation almost always end up being the majority & when the mixing commences they completely hijack the audna of the other communities without needing violence.

I hope you find this insightful enough, also remember they're not established peer reviewed theories so don't expect any supporting data. Happy new year.

gihanga.rwanda
01-03-2021, 02:40 AM
https://www.instagram.com/p/CJgy6mgH-OC/?hl=en

Random post. I’d be interested in seeing this old woman’s 23andme results. She’s a rare example of a first generation Nilotic/Mediterranean mix, being half Mundari-South Sudanese half Greek.

I wonder how common Greek traders were in parts of Africa during the colonial era, because this isn’t the first SSA person with recent Greek ancestry. I know a Rwandan family who’s mother is a quarter Greek from her grandfather.

drobbah
01-03-2021, 03:00 AM
https://www.instagram.com/p/CJgy6mgH-OC/?hl=en

Random post. I’d be interested in seeing this old woman’s 23andme results. She’s a rare example of a first generation Nilotic/Mediterranean mix, being half Mundari-South Sudanese half Greek.

I wonder how common Greek traders were in parts of Africa during the colonial era, because this isn’t the first SSA person with recent Greek ancestry. I know a Rwandan family who’s mother is a quarter Greek from her grandfather.
There were Armenians and Greeks in Ethiopia as well.The woman looks similar to the Nubians/Sudanese Arabs

ThaYamamoto
01-03-2021, 04:14 PM
https://www.instagram.com/p/CJgy6mgH-OC/?hl=en

Random post. I’d be interested in seeing this old woman’s 23andme results. She’s a rare example of a first generation Nilotic/Mediterranean mix, being half Mundari-South Sudanese half Greek.

I wonder how common Greek traders were in parts of Africa during the colonial era, because this isn’t the first SSA person with recent Greek ancestry. I know a Rwandan family who’s mother is a quarter Greek from her grandfather.

I'm shook off of how much this lady looks like my late grandmother who was 1/2 Ugandan. Wow. Also I think there is a Greek community in Sudan, my close friend is Sudanese with a Greek moms. By Greek I mean Arabic speaking Sudanese-Greek but pretty sure she's 100% Greek. They still carry their original Greek names, surprisingly.

edit: since you mentioned Rwanda there was sizeable Greek community in Kenya when I was a kid. I know of people who are mixed Greek+Kalenjin+Indian.

gihanga.rwanda
01-03-2021, 05:55 PM
I'm shook off of how much this lady looks like my late grandmother who was 1/2 Ugandan. Wow. Also I think there is a Greek community in Sudan, my close friend is Sudanese with a Greek moms. By Greek I mean Arabic speaking Sudanese-Greek but pretty sure she's 100% Greek. They still carry their original Greek names, surprisingly.

edit: since you mentioned Rwanda there was sizeable Greek community in Kenya when I was a kid. I know of people who are mixed Greek+Kalenjin+Indian.

I found this interesting Facebook page that explores the Greek presence in East Africa during the colonial era from Kenya to Rwanda to Mozambique. It sounds like the Greeks were on their way to becoming the “Lebanese of East Africa”, I wonder what impeded them from establishing sizable communities in the region. It looks like most of them departed once these countries gained independence.

https://m.facebook.com/Greeks-of-Africa-Grecs-de-l-Afrique-1728228410743413/?__tn__=C-R