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View Full Version : R1b1b2a1a2f*, M222, and 23andme: is it possible to know?



mrrstrat
07-10-2016, 03:32 PM
Hello fellow R1b-L21'ers:

Like many DNA nerd noobs I have just got my profile on one of those slick testing sites - for me that was 23andme.

Low and behold I get the family ancestry shattering bombshell that I am of the R1b1b2a1a2f* line. It is also suggested as we all know that the M222 subgroup is within that.

Is there a way to search the raw 23andme data to check for M222: I can find the rs20321 in my data and it shows: rs20321 Y 14902414 G

I know this is not the A mutation, but does 23andme have the resolution to show more than the ancestral G and also show the mutations/subclass for rs20321?

This is probably a dumb and well asked question - I have researched this for many days now before posting what might be the number 1 dumb question in the R1b-L21 area..

thanks!

mrrstrat
07-12-2016, 05:38 PM
Ok here is another question: How can I get better analysis results of my 23andme data to determine which subclade I belong to under R1b1b2a1a2f*?

Is there an online site to examine this data or log into 23andme and get the data it needs?

mrrstrat
07-12-2016, 06:47 PM
Is this a very active section? Its eerily silent...

Little bit
07-12-2016, 07:29 PM
23andme doesn't cover the Y very deeply and their Y haplogroup assignments are pretty ancient, based on 2009 ISOGG. Most snp's downstream of L21 are not tested but a handful are and if not part of the 2009 ISOGG, won't be caught by 23andme. You can try running this tool:
http://www.y-str.org/2014/04/23andme-to-ysnps.html

I've got 4 guys tested at 23andme, all 4 are listed as R1b1b2a1a2f or R1b1b2a1a2f*. Btw, ignore the asterisk as it's meaningless now. My guys with no asterisk were tested on a much earlier platform when not much past L21 was known. 2 of the R1b1b2a1a2f* are in the Irish III group, L226/FGC5628+ but you cannot determine that with 23andme raw data. You have to test at FTDNA to know that. The other 2 guys are CTS1751+ which CAN be determined with v2/v4 23andme raw data:

rs11799049 G (derived) CTS1751 Royal line of Dyfed? See this thread:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1326-CTS1751-(L21-gt-DF13-gt-CTS1751)-and-variations-of-L144/page2

M222 is downstream of L21 and 23andme would list you as R1b1b2a1a2f2 if you were positive for it. R1b1b2a1a2f* is negative for M222 though don't despair, there are plenty of historically significant lineages you could still be positive for if you test at FTDNA:
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l21/about/background

mrrstrat
07-12-2016, 08:18 PM
Tool cool! Thanks for the info on this - the inclusion in R1b1b2a1a2f is quite a surprise for my family as we are Rogers. I am interested to see where this line geographically originated.

I am proud to join the R1b1b2a1a2f ranks :-)

mrrstrat
07-12-2016, 08:59 PM
Is there a list of subclasses that ARE testable by 23andme data?

Little bit
07-12-2016, 09:20 PM
You can search 23andme threads, I know there was a thread I participated on that listed tested snp's. Or you can check this for listed snp's, those under L21, and plug them in one-by-one into your 23andme raw data and see if you are positive:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jE0w48zwP3H2XV-2FBL3UBic84xQz-qBmdAl2-wJXOY/edit?ts=574acf68#gid=1934392066

Your best bet, given your interest, is testing at FTDNA. A 37 or 67 marker test plus an L21 snp panel would answer a lot of your questions and provide you with Y matches, which 23andme cannot do. I've seen Rogers listed in L21, so it's not a stretch by any means.

Jessie
07-13-2016, 02:19 AM
Hello fellow R1b-L21'ers:

Like many DNA nerd noobs I have just got my profile on one of those slick testing sites - for me that was 23andme.

Low and behold I get the family ancestry shattering bombshell that I am of the R1b1b2a1a2f* line. It is also suggested as we all know that the M222 subgroup is within that.

Is there a way to search the raw 23andme data to check for M222: I can find the rs20321 in my data and it shows: rs20321 Y 14902414 G

I know this is not the A mutation, but does 23andme have the resolution to show more than the ancestral G and also show the mutations/subclass for rs20321?

This is probably a dumb and well asked question - I have researched this for many days now before posting what might be the number 1 dumb question in the R1b-L21 area..

thanks!

23andMe tests for M222. If you were M222 you would be listed as R1b1b2a1a2f2 so you are L21 and not M222. My brother was tested at 23andMe and came back as M222 (R1b1b2a1a2f2).

mrrstrat
07-15-2016, 03:09 AM
I put my converted 23andme data into a converter and then put this into the Robert Case SNP Predictor:


[Possible R-L21 Y-SNP Testing Candidates]

SNP PROB FPM FPM FPP DIST
------------------------------------------------
L643 90% 7 8 87.5% 67
DF41_N 80% 6 8 75% 67
L577 80% 7 8 87.5% 67
L130 40% 9 13 69.2% 67
L526 40% 11 16 68.8% 67
L720 40% 7 11 63.6% 67
L894 & L895 40% 9 12 75% 67
M222 40% 6 11 54.5% 67
DF41_S 30% 6 9 66.7% 67
L144 & L195 (W) 30% 5 8 62.5% 67
L1065 30% 5 8 62.5% 67
L1335_M 30% 5 8 62.5% 67
L226 20% 6 9 66.7% 67
L69.5 15% 8 12 66.7% 67
L159.2 10% 3 6 50% 67
L193 10% 3 6 50% 67
L583 10% 7 11 63.6% 67
L627 & L626 & L625 10% 7 12 58.3% 67
L641 & L642 10% 7 12 58.3% 67
L679 10% 8 14 57.1% 67
L706.2 & L705.2 10% 4 7 57.1% 67
L159.2-D 5% 7 13 53.8% 67
L371 5% 6 11 54.5% 67
L743 5% 6 9 66.7% 67
L744 & L745 & L746 5% 5 9 55.6% 67
L908 & L909 5% 8 15 53.3% 67
S190 5% 5 9 55.6% 67
DF41_M 0% 4 9 44.4% 67
DF41_D 0% 4 10 40% 67

mrrstrat
07-15-2016, 03:11 AM
Do these results show anything significant?

(not sure how significant, but I did minor in BioChem/BioSci in my undergrad studies)..

mrrstrat
07-15-2016, 03:14 AM
My 23andme data has me at a firm R1b1b2a1a2f, but I am trying to see if there are any tested SNPs downstream that infer a known lineage.

Any and all help on this to assist a fellow R-L21 would be graciously appreciated :-)

MacUalraig
07-15-2016, 09:34 AM
Is there a list of subclasses that ARE testable by 23andme data?

I would forget it, its hard to imagine a test more out of date to be honest. There is a very good L21 panel at YSEQ which includes running the lower level panel too and will take you to your terminal SNP for a reasonable price

https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=4321

Bear in mind that if you start testing STRs many of your matches will be false positives. Only the ones whose terminal SNP matches yours will be relevant - assuming they have even done SNP testing.

mrrstrat
07-15-2016, 12:40 PM
Ok I just bought the $99 L21 kit. I was reluctant as if I am not Df13 or Df63 I am not sure what they do for me on this test. 23andme does not show these subclades for me. I am hoping I am not a new and unique mutation in L21*.

mrrstrat
07-15-2016, 07:39 PM
Kinda late for me to ask now, but how does everyone feel about YSEQ? They seem to have a great reputation in the DNA testing world..

MitchellSince1893
07-15-2016, 09:44 PM
I have ordered 3 tests from them for other individuals and am quite happy with the results and price.

RobertCasey
07-16-2016, 12:04 AM
Here is a link to a summary of branches under M222. This probably only includes half of the currently known branches. You really need to order 67 YSTR markers from FTDNA and then order the M222 SNP pack.


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Tree_Chart.pdf (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Tree_Chart.pdf)

mrrstrat
07-16-2016, 03:33 AM
I am into genetic testing to the tune of $300 with this last kit lol. If YSEQ can't tell me where I am from I am not sure what to do :-)

mrrstrat
07-16-2016, 03:52 AM
I am not sure if I am DF13 - the 23andme file converted to GEDCOM file said I was not derived - the same for DF63. I am pretty sure I am not M222 as my converted GEDCOM file showed I was not derived for that SNP either.
This of course assumes the 23andme data is relevant after R1b-21*.

George Chandler
07-17-2016, 06:46 PM
Kinda late for me to ask now, but how does everyone feel about YSEQ? They seem to have a great reputation in the DNA testing world..

I don't represent or promote and company but my experience with them (YSEQ) has been excellent.

George

mrrstrat
07-19-2016, 03:10 PM
How often do they get a L21* with no known subclade?

JamesKane
07-19-2016, 04:07 PM
How often do they get a L21* with no known subclade?

True R-L21* men are rare. Alex's tree gives a good visual with the block widths: http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=3

The odds are very high you will fall on one of those branches. If you don't, considering an NGS test to find a new branch becomes the best option should curiosity outweigh the investment cost.

George Chandler
07-19-2016, 05:22 PM
How often do they get a L21* with no known subclade?

You would have to ask them that question but given all of the Big Y and Y Elite 2.1 results that are coming in it's probably rare to receive a L21* from the current L21 subclade testing.

George

mrrstrat
07-19-2016, 05:45 PM
Anyone know if 23andme retests their customers as they get more things to test for or once they test are they done?

JamesKane
07-19-2016, 06:04 PM
No, as a rule labs do not rerun completed tests when new versions are introduced. The only way to ensure relative completeness is to go with a WGS test. The better options for this today are generally around $1,000. These are new though and there is not a good comparison architecture in place for consumers.

evon
07-19-2016, 06:08 PM
I have a few R1b1b2a1a2f2 among my matches, I always assumed that was the M222 sub-clade...

mrrstrat
07-20-2016, 05:27 PM
I just sent the completed swab test to YSEQ so we shall see what they find out - I'll let everyone know.

When I do get the results from YSEQ, does FTDNA accept the results from them - I would like to participate in the R1b-L21 efforts that are out there.

swid
07-20-2016, 08:06 PM
YSEQ results cannot be transferred into FTDNA.

However, if you previously had a Y-DNA test done at FTDNA, let the administrators of the L21 Project know your YSEQ results (and your ID number) so that they can categorize your results properly.

mrrstrat
07-20-2016, 09:58 PM
I had my R1b-L21* verified by 23andme. But I might get a test there at some point to participate (or petition for some sort of allowance/concession to join).

swid
07-20-2016, 10:52 PM
OK, I didn't know if you had tested there either before or in conjunction with 23andMe.

If you decide you want to have an FTDNA account for participation purposes, the 12-marker test (which is no longer advertised) goes for $59.

JamesKane
07-21-2016, 01:12 AM
I had my R1b-L21* verified by 23andme. But I might get a test there at some point to participate (or petition for some sort of allowance/concession to join).

There's no real need to join the FTDNA projects, if you don't have STR results. The best way to participate is simply be active in forums like this or the Yahoo groups that is most appropriate after your YSEQ results are known.

mrrstrat
07-21-2016, 02:34 PM
Didnt know if the FTDNA was the best place for L21 stuff. Can anyone recommend some nice L21 groups?

swid
07-21-2016, 05:25 PM
Right here is an active forum for L21 discussion, but the most active site is probably the Yahoo L21 group (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-L21-Project/info).

Jessie
07-25-2016, 06:10 AM
I've posted on the first page that 23andMe test for M222 so the OP is definitely not M222. On 23andMe M222 is R1b1b2a1a2f2.

I've also noticed that Littlebit said this as well.

If from Ireland than it might be worth testing further because the subclades under L21 can be helpful in pinning down what area your ancestry is from. M222 is strongly northwestern Ireland for example and L226 appears to be a marker of Brian Boru and the Munster area.

MacUalraig
07-25-2016, 08:03 AM
I just sent the completed swab test to YSEQ so we shall see what they find out - I'll let everyone know.

When I do get the results from YSEQ, does FTDNA accept the results from them - I would like to participate in the R1b-L21 efforts that are out there.

Hopefully whoever organises research into your terminal branch is open minded and will help you out (and vice versa). In the meantime you can add your YSEQ result to your profile at ftdna just by adding it to your name eg 'John FGC12345 Smith' and people will see that in their STR match lists. FTDNA don't match based on your SNPs anyway (unless you are in the BigY matching system which is a story in itself) so you haven't really lost anything.

mrrstrat
07-30-2016, 02:08 PM
Still waiting for results - I am pretty certain I am NOT M222, but suspect strong on the Scot side.

evon
07-30-2016, 02:20 PM
Still waiting for results - I am pretty certain I am NOT M222, but suspect strong on the Scot side.

It is pretty obvious that if you have already tested with 23andme you are not M222, as they do test for it..

Dubhthach
07-30-2016, 02:31 PM
Still waiting for results - I am pretty certain I am NOT M222, but suspect strong on the Scot side.

Without knowing what type of L21 you are, or what (if any) STR cluster you fall into, that's basically impossible to tell via 23andme. You'll need to test at least 37 STR's with FTDNA and either do L21 SNP pack, or just do SNP pack in yseq where it's cheaper (you won't get STR's in YSEQ though)

http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=4321

mrrstrat
08-04-2016, 03:40 PM
I have ordered the R1b-L21 Super-Clade Orientation Panel from YSEQ - They received my swabs and is currently being processed. I expect they will be able to determine which L21 I am :-)

It sounds like they test for the most known subclades in L21 - does this panel rate well against FTDNA 37 STR test?

Dubhthach
08-04-2016, 03:49 PM
Well STR and SNP testing are very different beasts, SNP testing will give you an accurate terminal haplogroup. However it won't allow to see how closely related you are to other men within your haplogroup. That's where STR testing comes in. However I'd wait to see how your Orientation Panel goes

MacUalraig
08-04-2016, 03:51 PM
I have ordered the R1b-L21 Super-Clade Orientation Panel from YSEQ - They received my swabs and is currently being processed. I expect they will be able to determine which L21 I am :-)

It sounds like they test for the most known subclades in L21 - does this panel rate well against FTDNA 37 STR test?

Yes. Zero false positive rate. :-) I use it a lot, got two on the go right now in my surname project.

mrrstrat
08-04-2016, 05:40 PM
The R1b-L21 Super-Clade Orientation Panel appears to be a SNP test.

This is from their site on the test:

"The R1b-L21 Super-Clade Panel is tested in several stages:

First DF13 and Z39589 are tested. Depending on the result of DF13 and Z39589 the most frequent occurring markers downstream from DF13 or Z39589 are tested. If a marker downstream of DF13 or Z39589 is found positive, we will immediately proceed with the FREE downstream panel and continue testing until the most downstream (non-private) branch according to our latest research. Please refer to each L21 downstream panel to see the details.

If DF13 is negative we'll test L21, DF63 and A5846, A7906, and BY3031 in the next round. If DF63 is positive, we'll continue with the FREE DF63 Panel.

However in most cases we expect that DF13 will be positive. Then we'll test various bold color coded markers in stage two. A positive result will trigger testing the downstream SNPs of each branch. If all colored downstream SNPs of DF13 are negative, we'll continue with the brown, rare subclades."

MacUalraig
08-04-2016, 06:05 PM
The R1b-L21 Super-Clade Orientation Panel appears to be a SNP test.



You do understand that L21 is a SNP, right?

mrrstrat
08-04-2016, 06:29 PM
Yes :-)

I was thinking that the YSEQ test was a STR test from the previous posting, but the test I bought from YSEQ appears to provide haplogroup information - actually what I was looking for. I am less concerned with DNA matches and more on heritage.

mrrstrat
08-13-2016, 03:45 PM
First results are in: I am confirmed to be DF-13-->DF-49. So now they are doing the NorthWest Irish Panel (I believe this is Irish type I testing).

Dubhthach
08-15-2016, 07:53 AM
Well M222 is part of DF49 correct (perhaps numerically the biggest part) but DF49 is quite an old subclade, have a look at branching structure taken from DF49 project page

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10258680/Draft_DF49xM222_Tree%20v23.png

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF49

It will be interesting to see how the yseq DF49 panel places you.