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rms2
04-16-2013, 12:54 AM
Now there's a topic for you! :)

I was going to call it "Ireland and L21", but then it occurred to me that I cannot recall a single Irish L21 with a DF13- result. Perhaps someone else can think of one that I have overlooked, forgotten, or just don't know about yet.

Anyway, I just visited Ireland in March with my family and had the time of my life; I loved it there and can only say good things about the place and the people. What I am wondering is how DF13 came to be so utterly dominant in Ireland, since it does not seem at all likely that it was the first y haplogroup in the island.

Here are the Busby et al stats for Ireland as a reminder (in terms of L21, but I think it's reasonable to assume that just about all of that is DF13+).

Ireland

East Ireland (N = 149)
L21 = 71.1%
U106 = 6.7%
U152 = 4%
P312xL21, U152 = 7.4%

North Ireland (N = 72)
L21 = 79.2%
U106 = 4.2%
U152 = 1.4%
P312xL21, U152 = 4.2%

South Ireland (N = 89)
L21 = 74.2%
U106 = 3.4%
U152 = 1.1%
P312xL21, U152 = 7.9%

West Ireland (N = 67)
L21 = 73.1%
U106 = 4.5%
U152 = 1.5%
P312xL21, U152 = 7.5%

Those are some pretty amazing stats. Do you know of any other place on earth where a single y haplogroup as relatively young as L21 (and likely all DF13+) is so utterly dominant, exceeding frequencies of 70%? I don't.

How did that happen?

Mikewww
04-16-2013, 02:07 AM
Those frequencies are quite high. I think when people view various haplogroup frequency maps side by side they lose track of how the shading is generally relative to the high and low frequencies within each individual haplogroup map, and not constant across maps.

Here is a Eupedia created frequency map of L21.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Frequency_by_Eupedia_from_Busby.jpg

L21 makes a good showing in France. I don't know of any frequency maps for DF13 but as Richard noted, L21 in Ireland is very much DF13+

Mikewww
04-16-2013, 06:44 PM
.... Anyway, I just visited Ireland in March with my family and had the time of my life; I loved it there and can only say good things about the place and the people. What I am wondering is how DF13 came to be so utterly dominant in Ireland, since it does not seem at all likely that it was the first y haplogroup in the island
....
How did that happen?

My guess is that DF13 may not have not been born in Ireland but some early DF13+ people migrated there, probably as a part of some ancient Bronze Age people like the Bell Beaker folks. Ireland is the northwest edge of Europe and the early DF13 men may have had a long period of advantage over people who didn't have the same kind of technologies and organization. Essentially, Ireland had some shelter from the continent during this period.

Then over time, as continental Europe first, and then Great Britain, churned through wars, famines and what have you some of the DF13 back there (who may have actually been in the DF13 homeland) moved to westward to Ireland.

Examples might be the Roman Empire expansion conquering Gaul (old France) may have caused people to move to the Isles and then as Rome conquered much of Britain more people might have moved westward across the Irish Sea. Likewise, the Anglo-Saxon invasions and settlements in old Romano-Britons to move westward. Finally, latter day movements on the fringes of England, such as the Normans or Scots, and their entourages may have pushed even more DF13 into Ireland. There were probably many types of migrations of people into the British Isles from the continent that eventually caused spillage of more DF13 over into Ireland as well as having brought more DF13 with them.

The closest launch points from the continent include the NW France Atlantic Coast. This could have been a heavy DF13 dense area.....

Jean M
04-16-2013, 08:17 PM
Seems as though there was a decline in population in Ireland at the end of the Neolithic there, which created greater opportunities for Bell Beaker incomers.

Alan attended the Institute of Archaeologists of Ireland Conference 3 November 2012: The Archaeology of Disaster and Recovery and took some interesting notes on the presentations:

Dr. Nicki Whitehouse (School of Geography, Archaeology and Palaeoecology, Queen's University Belfast) "The Boom and Bust of early farming communities; linking archaeological and environmental change in the Neolithic".

Dr. T. Rowan McLaughlin, (School of Geography, Archaeology and Palaeoecology, Queen's University Belfast): "A slow recovery: population histories in Ireland from the Middle Neolithic to the Early Bronze Age."

A paper has been submitted to the Journal of Archaeological Science. Whitehouse, N.J.; Schulting, R.J.; McClatchie, M.; Barratt, P.; McLaughlin, R.; Bogaard, A.; Colledge, S.; Marchant,R.; Gaffrey, J.; Bunting, M.J., Neolithic agriculture on the western fringes of Europe: a multi-disciplinary approach to the boom and bust of early farming in Ireland.

Irish archaeologist Robert Chapple has a write-up on his blog of a lecture in February this year at Queen's University Belfast by Prof. Stephen Shennan: "Booms and Busts in Europe’s Earliest Farming Societies" (http://rmchapple.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/booms-and-busts-in-europes-earliest.html). Ireland is one example. There is a population boom at around 5500 cal BP, followed by a trough around 5000 cal BP. A further rise in population may be noted around the period 5000-4000 cal BP.

Mikewww
04-16-2013, 09:18 PM
Seems as though there was a decline in population in Ireland at the end of the Neolithic there, which created greater opportunities for Bell Beaker incomers...

For some reason, the Bell Beakers proliferated during the Neolithic farming decline. What did the early Bell Beakers have as an advantage that helped them while farming was in decline? Was it dairying? Disease resistance?

I guess I'm assuming the theories about the decline of farming circa 5500 ybp was crop or climate related. Do they actually know?

Jean M
04-16-2013, 10:46 PM
From Alan's notes:

Plantago decline c. 3500 BC indicates problem at end of rectangular house period. This coincides with decline in weather noted in rings on big oaks. TRB sites pollen also show decline 3300 BC. Radiocarbon date numbers from sites decline 3300 BC. German pine suggests wet conditions at same period.

Mikewww
04-17-2013, 10:35 PM
From Alan's notes:
Plantago decline c. 3500 BC indicates problem at end of rectangular house period. This coincides with decline in weather noted in rings on big oaks. TRB sites pollen also show decline 3300 BC. Radiocarbon date numbers from sites decline 3300 BC. German pine suggests wet conditions at same period.

So there apparently was a crop problem probably causing food shortages. It looks like the Beakers didn't come in (at least into the British Isles) until a couple of hundred years later. Do we think they had advantages related to stockherding or dairying? or was their advantage that they gained high social positions and literally just took the food they needed from everybody else?

Jean M
04-17-2013, 11:06 PM
If arable farming had ceased, there would be no cereals to take from other people. If the population declined, there would be few people to exploit in any way. So incoming stock-breeders would have lots of lush grazing for their cattle (if conditions were still on the damp side) and few competitors.

rms2
04-18-2013, 01:26 AM
That makes sense. I'll have to look it up, but I think it was Poseidonius (or Strabo quoting him) who remarked on the pastoral nature of the tribes in the interior of Britain. I suppose you could apply that to Ireland, as well. There was also a study not too long ago that found that lactase persistence increases as one moves north and west in the Isles, beginning from SE Britain.

Jean M
04-18-2013, 10:03 AM
I have now laid hands on the abstracts from that conference, which you can download from here (http://www.iai.ie/index.php/news-a-events/iai-conferences/88-autumn-2012-conference.html). Here's the abstract for Nicki Whitehouse, Phil Barratt; Rowan McLaughlin; Rick Schulting; Meriel McClatchie; Amy Bogaard, Sue Colledge; Rob Marchant, Paula Reimer; Dave Brown: The Boom and Bust of early farming communities; linking archaeological and environmental change in the Neolithic:


Archaeology has much to contribute to our understanding of the responses of communities to the consequences of climatic change. Here, we present results from the Heritage Council’s (Republic of Ireland) INSTAR-funded research project (2008–2010) ‘Cultivating Societies: assessing the evidence for agriculture in Neolithic Ireland’. The project has been concerned with examining the timing, extent and nature of Neolithic farming in Ireland, against its wider palaeoclimatic and environmental backdrop. Bayesian analyses of palaeoenvironmental and archaeological C14 data have allowed us to examine linkages between environment, climate, farming and settlement within a much stronger chronological framework – sometimes at generational time intervals – allowing us to explore the temporal and spatial character of this highly resolved dataset.

There is a coincidence between climatically-driven hydrological changes during the mid-Holocene, 4100–3200 cal BC, inferred from Irish bog oaks (Barratt et al. submitted) and other records, and the onset and development of agriculture in Ireland. The early stages of agricultural development occurred during a period of ameliorated climatic conditions; however, major environmental changes in the middle of the 4th millennium BC apparently impacted the progression of agricultural and archaeological activities at this time. We see changes in landscape use and hints of a decline of agricultural activities. Coincident with these events are potential changes in the Neolithic archaeological record, with far fewer signals of human settlement for the Middle and Late Neolithic, a lull in radiocarbon dated settlement activity from around 3300 cal. BC to just after 3000 cal. BC, when the archaeological record is almost completely dominated by burials of the passage tomb tradition. This may be at least partially related to low archaeological visibility of settlement structures, but this may not be the whole explanation. These changes are not just evident across Ireland but also further a field, suggesting wider impacts. It thus seems possible that environmental changes in the 4th millennium may have had cultural consequences.

Jean M
04-18-2013, 10:04 AM
Dr T. Rowan McLaughlin (School of Geography, Archaeology and Palaeoecology, Queen's University Belfast): A slow recovery: population histories in Ireland from the Middle Neolithic to the Early Bronze Age


Archaeologists are often asked to estimate prehistoric population levels, but the answers are usually highly speculative and based on inadequate data. The last twenty years of archaeological fieldwork and research in Ireland have yielded a greatly expanded dataset, especially with respect to the number of radiocarbon dates now available, and archaeological signals of settlement. Of particular value are the results from developer-led excavation of random landscape samples such as roads and pipelines, as these have less intrinsic biases than research-focussed excavations. Indeed, the sheer volume of data presents its own problems when attempting syntheses of the dataset. However, geography and chronology can be used as powerful tools to progress towards achieving an overview of the available data. This paper investigates the fluctuating evidence for human settlement in Ireland during the third millennium BC, a timeframe ranging from the Middle Neolithic world of the developed passage tomb, to the introduction of successive waves of cultures, ideas and (perhaps) people during the Bronze Age transition. Landscape analysis is used as an attempt to differentiate the ceremonial and domestic settings of the various sites. Comparisons are made with theoretical models, the settlement history of earlier and later phases of Irish prehistory, and with other geographic areas. In this way, some new absolute population level estimates are made. Although still highly speculative, these new guesses are at least better informed by recent fieldwork, and the manifold biases and sources of error in the data can be controlled for.

Dubhthach
04-18-2013, 01:09 PM
We also have to take into account social habits in Gaelic Ireland before the destruction of Irish society in the 17th century. Here's a quote from "Gaelic and Gaelicised Ireland" by Ken Nichol's (the definitive short-text on period)


One of the most important phenomena in a clan-based society is that of expansion from the top downwards. The seventeenth-century Irish scholar and genealogist Dualtagh Mac Firbisigh remarked that 'as the sons and families of the rulers multiplied, so their subjects and followers were squeezed out and withered away; and this penomenon, the expansion of the ruling or dominant stocks at th expense of the remainder, is a normal feature in societies of this type. It has been observed of the modern Basotho of South Africa that 'there is a constant displacement of commoners by royals [i.e. members of the royal clan] and of collateral royals by the direct descendants of the ruling prince;, and this could have been said without adaptation , of any important Gaelic or Gaelicized lordship of late medieval Ireland.

In Fermanagh, for example the kingship of the Maguires began only with the accession of Donn Mór in 1282 and the ramification of the family - with the exception of one or two small and territorially unimportant septs - began with the sons of the same man. the spread of his descendants can be seen by the genealogical tract called Geinelaighe Fhearmanach; by 1607 they must have been in the possesion of at least three-quarters of the total soil of Fermanagh, having displaced or reduced the clans which had previously held it. The rate which an Irish clan could itself must not be underestimated. Tulrlough an fhíona O'Donnell, lord of Tirconnell (d. 1423) had eighteen sons (by ten different women) and fifty-nine grandsons in the male line. Mulmora O'Reilly, the lord of East Brefny, who died in 1566, had at least fifty-eight O'Reilly grandsons. Philip Maguire, lord of Fermanagh (d. 1395) had twenty sons by eight mothers, and we know of at least fifty grandsons. Oliver Burke of Tirawley (two of whose became Lower Mac William although he himself had never held that position) left at least thirty-eight grandsons in the male line.

Irish law drew no distinction in matters of inheritance between the legitimate and the illegitimate and permitted the affiliation of children by their mother's declaration (see Chapter 4), and the general sexual permissiveness of medieval Irish society must have allowed a rate of multiplication approaching that which is permitted by the polygyny practised in, for instance, the clan socieities of southern Africa already cited.

Now those are examples from medieval period of men who would have left huge amount of male ancestors. If anything we can see the echo's of them in such groups such as "Airghialla II" (L513+, L69+) cluster.

If we track the same behaviour backwards to at least the beginning of christianity in Ireland a thousand years before hand it's no wonder that dynastical groupings end up with hugh numbers of potential descendants.

Should note that the afore mentioned "Oliver Burke" would have been Cambro-Norman who became "More Irish then the Irish themselves". The original form of the Burke Surname is De Burgo.

rms2
04-19-2013, 12:41 AM
We can certainly envision something similar from the Bronze Age arrival of the Beaker Folk forward, once the Beaker Folk had established a position of leadership.

Dubhthach
04-19-2013, 08:49 AM
We can certainly envision something similar from the Bronze Age arrival of the Beaker Folk forward, once the Beaker Folk had established a position of leadership.

I do wonder though if nature of society was somewhat different in pre-christian period (pre-5th century AD), namely there appears to be a shift from a society based on tribal allegiance to one based on lineages and genealogy.

Some have argued that this is tied in with Christianity as the whole point of the pseudo-genealogies that tie back to sons of Míl is of course that it in turn traces back to Adam. As a result you see the tieing of Irish proto-history into a Biblical/Classical narrative.

For example one of stories tells how the Irish language was crafted on the Plains of Shinar by the King of the Scythians after the fall of tower of Babel, and was thus created from best of all languages.

If we look at all the major dynatical groupings the earliest they appear to come to power (in a meaningful way) is around the time of transition from Paganism to Christianity. The names of older population groupings survive in annals/genealogies but it seems they were basically completely replaced when it came to power structures.

-Paul
(DF41+)

rms2
04-19-2013, 03:29 PM
I do wonder though if nature of society was somewhat different in pre-christian period (pre-5th century AD), namely there appears to be a shift from a society based on tribal allegiance to one based on lineages and genealogy.

Some have argued that this is tied in with Christianity as the whole point of the pseudo-genealogies that tie back to sons of Míl is of course that it in turn traces back to Adam. As a result you see the tieing of Irish proto-history into a Biblical/Classical narrative.

For example one of stories tells how the Irish language was crafted on the Plains of Shinar by the King of the Scythians after the fall of tower of Babel, and was thus created from best of all languages.

If we look at all the major dynatical groupings the earliest they appear to come to power (in a meaningful way) is around the time of transition from Paganism to Christianity. The names of older population groupings survive in annals/genealogies but it seems they were basically completely replaced when it came to power structures.

-Paul
(DF41+)

It could be that it just appears to coincide with the transition to Christianity because it was Christianity that brought writing to Ireland and thus recorded history. But the process of reproductive competition, with chiefs having numerous sons who ousted less well connected competitors, could be something that goes back beyond that. Naturally, there would be winners and losers and an ebb and flow to who was in power at any particular time and place.