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View Full Version : L513 (L21>DF13>L513) & Z249 and Subclades L193, L706.2, L577, CTS3087, L69.5



TigerMW
04-16-2013, 03:19 AM
Richard beat me to it (with DF41) but we need to start a thread on L513 too. It is another of the old and large subclades of DF13.

DF1 and S215 are additional names for L513. Z249 appears to be phylogenetically equivalent to L513/DF1 so Geno 2.0 testees who come up Z249+ should join this group as well. Here is the project Y haplotypes classic screen.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21-1113Combo/default.aspx?section=yresults

The following chart shows the current STR signature based clusters (varieties) within L513.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b-L513_Descendency_Tree.jpg

The name "11-13 Combo" is also associated with the project. Before L513 was discovered, hobbyist researchers noticed an off-modal STR pattern involving two fairly slow moving markers. Values of 11 or greater for DYS406s1 and 13 or greater for DYS617 indicate a high probability of for R1b predicted people of being L513+. These STRs are not foolproof as there are people who don't quite fit that are L513+ and there are some that are "11-13" people who are L513-.

Dubhthach
05-04-2013, 01:13 PM
Just looking at results this morning in Ireland Project I noticed a Fitzpatrick with 67 markers who had transfered in Geno 2.0 results. According to which he is L513+, he falls into the [513-D1] cluster which appears connected to wider region of Bréifne (Leitrim/Cavan).

Fitzpatrick is an interesting surname in Ireland in that's it's a native Irish surname that has taken a "Norman" form, mainly for the purpose of retaining land. It's usually associated thus with the surname "Mac Giolla Phádraig" who were Kings of Osraighe (Osraí = reformed spelling) which consisted of Modern Kilkenny and part of Offaly, they were displaced by Norman Butlers who took over most of their territory (modern Kilkenny) leaving them with just "Upper Ossory".


Mac GIOLLA PHÁDRAIG—IV—M'Gillephadrick, M'Gillapatrick, M'Kilpatrick, MacGilpatrick, MacIlpatrick, MacIlfatrick, MacElfatrick, MacIlfederick, MacElfedrick, Gilpatrick, Kilpatrick, Kirkpatrick, Fitzpatrick; 'son of Giolla Phádraig' (servant of St. Patrick). The principal family of this name are the MacGillapatricks, or Fitzpatricks, of Ossory, who took their name from Giolla Phádraig, son of Donnchadh, lord of Ossory, in the 10th century. In early times they ruled over the entire of Co. Kilkenny and part of the present Leix, but after the Anglo-Norman invasion they were greatly encroached upon by the Butlers and other English settlers in Kilkenny, and their patrimony was limited to the barony of Upper Ossory. Branches of the family settled in Clare, Cavan, Leitrim, and other parts of Ireland. In 1541, Brian Mac Giolla Patrick was created Baron of Upper Ossory. There appears to have been also a Scottish family of this name.

Anyways given their Leinster origin I figured it's unlikely there's a connection Fitzpatrick in Cavan, seems there was another surname there that was later assimilated into more common Fitzpatrick angliscation.


Ó MAOLPHÁDRAIG—I—O Mulfadricke, O Mulpatrick, (?) Fitzpatrick; 'descendant of Maolphádraig' (servant of St. Patrick); once a common surname, especially in Cavan and Cork. In the year 1602, Conor O Molpatrick, 'chief of his name,' was included in a list of pardons for Co. Cavan. Though the name has disappeared, the family was too numerous to have died out, and the probability is that, like the Mac Gillapatricks of Ossory, they have anglicised it to Fitzpatrick.

-Paul
(DF41+)

TigerMW
05-04-2013, 04:23 PM
Just looking at results this morning in Ireland Project I noticed a Fitzpatrick with 67 markers who had transfered in Geno 2.0 results. According to which he is L513+, he falls into the [513-D1] cluster which appears connected to wider region of Bréifne (Leitrim/Cavan)...

Paul, thanks for the heads up. Please ask this fellow to join the R1b-L513 / 1113Combo project.

MJost
05-09-2013, 05:33 PM
Pulling the this post from the GGC forum, so what is the general history of L193 with this age and its range for the Isles?



>111 STR haplotypes for Variety 513-A1-193

Not much different with 21 more suspect Hts as a guide to compare to SNP Tested.


CI @ 99.73 and Bird's q STRs
YrsPerGen Count Intraclade Founder's Modal
Modal Gen Age StdDevInGen YBP +OR-YBP Max-YBP CI SD GenModal CI +OR-YBP

30 N=77 513-A1-193's using 111marker HTs from ExtHts worksheet
32.0 13.4 959.6 403.3 1,362.8 26.02 780.6

MJost

Thank you, Mark. Great work! With your incorporation of Stephen Bird's S-SSM (single step model) low q value STR selection that takes the air out of TMRCA complaints.

TigerMW
05-17-2013, 03:57 PM
Pulling the this post from the GGC forum, so what is the general history of L193 with this age and its range for the Isles?

L193 is a good sized subclade that seems most dense along the Scottish and English border regions. In fact the large surname groups have traditions out of the old Border Reivers era. They consider themselves Anglo-Scottish.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Reivers

In particular, we have a very large group of Elliott's. Here is the Elliott Border Reivers web site. The Glendenning/Clendenon and Little/Lytle family groups are also large and of this tradition. The Border Reivers period was (late 13th century to the beginning of the 17th century.)
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/
Sounds like the Wild, Wild West.
http://www.thereivertrail.com/
The tradition is there are links with the Douglass and Armstrong families although that is not necessarily genetic.

You can see these haplotypes under subgroup "A1" at the L513 project. I'm pretty sure all of "A1" is L193+.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21-1113Combo/default.aspx?section=yresults

As you would expect, there tends to be a correlation of Scotland the Ulster areas of Ireland so you'll see a lot of L193 people there too.

Other common surnames include Kennedy, McClain/MacLean, Vance/Vans, Sinclair/St.Clair. Of course, the McClain group has more affinity with the Scottish Highlands.

I almost hate to bring this up because it usually brings up controversy. A number of the Vance and Sinclair people have the tradition they descend from Normans. Vance would be Vaux.

Some of these people think the common thread is a connection, although not necessarily genetic, with a powerful figure named Douglass.

Even though there are a lot of L193 people out there, it is a fairly young group. I see your best estimate is for a 960 ybp age. The Normans and Flemish allies were hitting this area back then but whoever the L193 people were, they were prolific from somewhere around tenth century on and successfully navigated the Border Reivers period.

TigerMW
05-17-2013, 04:18 PM
L513 subgroup J includes the following people.

f8633 Thomas
f161394 Martin
fN56253 Gilroy
fN114296 Gilroy
f7436 Goff

fN56253 Gilroy is the only person we can find so far with L9+ L10+

The new news is that fN114296 Gilroy has been found to be Z1867+.


> Geno 2.0 results for N114296 (Gilroy) have been added to the summary table at:
http://daver.info/geno/results/R-L513.pdf

Gilroy is Z1867+; since Z1867 was previously found in Hg J, this occurrence is
properly Z1867.2+. This mutation has not been previously seen in Hg R.

Gilroy was also expected to be L9+ L10+, based on prior testing done by his son. However, Geno 2.0 reports him as L9- L10-. On the basis of that, I have moved L9 and L10 to the list of Geno 2.0 SNPs which I have blacklisted. Blacklisted SNPs are listed on the summary table entry page:
http://daver.info/geno/results/ http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-L21-Project/message/15842

TigerMW
05-17-2013, 04:22 PM
Here is an update on the STR based clusters within R1b-L513 and their various SNP statuses.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b-L513_Descendency_Tree.jpg

L577 seems to be nicely dividing the "core" MacKenzie family of 513-E. I think we are throwing in the towel on L9 and L10 with the latest news from David Reynolds. We've pretty throughly tested for L908 and L909 and that seems to be private in the L513* unassigned paragroup with a fellow named Robertson.

CTS6621, CTS6942, CTS11744 look interesting as they are newly discovered in a Watkins but he has only 12 STRs so I don't know where to place him. He might be in my group, 513-B2, since he has a high 19/394 value and we have another Watkins already in B2.

TigerMW
05-29-2013, 12:43 AM
CTS3087 looks promising for L513 people. particularly variety 513-D2. These three CTS3087+ guys are all L513+ (/DF1+,Z249+). Two of them are in variety 513-D2 and one, McNabb, has an unknown STR haplotype.

f131998 Fritts and fN112468 James Diver have a GD=13 at 67 so this is easily a public SNP.

fN114377 McNabb, b. Unknown
f131998 Hans Fritts, b.1708, Germany
fN112468 James Diver, b.1824, Kilmacrenan, Co. Donegal, Ulster, Ireland

Here is David's chart on L513. There CTS3087- people inside of L513 so this is only applicable to L513 people.
http://daver.info/geno/results/R-L513.pdf

Below are the L513+ guys that are known CTS3087-.

f228009 Kane R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513* L513+ Z290+ Z249+ L193- L706.2- L69- L144- L577- L908- L909- L1333- CTS3087- Z1867- L9- L10- L192.1- 513- uas
f268319 Knox R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ CTS3087- Z1867- 513-A1-193-M
fN114028 McDonald R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ CTS3087- Z1867- 513-A1-193-M
f159822 Meek R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513>L193.1+ L193+ Z290+ Z249+ L144- L195- L526- L564- L580- L577- CTS3087- Z1867- L9- L10- L130- L192.1- 513-A1-193-N
f228829 Bruen/Bruin R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513>L69.5* L69.5+ Z249+ P66- L144- L577- CTS3087- Z1867- L9- L10- 513-A2
f246556 McDonald R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513>L69.5* L69.5+ Z290+ Z249+ P66- CTS3087- 513-A2-M
f274410 McDonald R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ L69+ Z249+ CTS3087- Z1867- 513-A2-M
fN84867 Watkins R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ CTS6621+ CTS6942+ CTS11744+ CTS3087- Z1867- 513-B2-705
f197401 Carey R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ L193- L706.2- L144- L577- CTS3087- Z1867- L9- L10- 513-D1
fH1601 Fitzpatrick R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ CTS3087- Z1867- 513-D1
f215816 Williams R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ L193- L144- L577- L908- CTS3087- Z1867- L9- L10- 513-E
fN1946 Gamble R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ L577- CTS3087- Z1867- L9- L10- 513-G
fN28178 Hayes(Scotland) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ L577- CTS3087- Z1867- L9- L10- 513-H
fN114296 Gilroy R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ Z1867+ CTS3087- 513-J
f56277 Winter R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ L193- L144- Z1867- L577- CTS3087- L9- L10- 513-W

I see L193.1+ guys on the negative list so L706.2 and P66 must test for ISOGG recognition.

TigerMW
06-04-2013, 03:04 AM
My little piece of the L513+ clade is L706.2+ L705.2+. We seem to be about a 1000 years old and many of us have connections to Wales or Welsh surnames. The anamolies in our group have been a guy from La Roche, France and from Ostergotland, Sweden.

However, I was able to look at more Owen surname people and found five or six new excellent suspects that have our group's 19=15 YCAII=18,23 444=13 to go with the normal L513 406s1>=11 617>=13.

The additional people that seem to have the Wales connection is really leading me that direction. I wish testing was greater in France so we could have a better look to see if parts of France might have more of us other than just the one, but one is just one.

TigerMW
06-09-2013, 10:16 PM
We've had another Scandinavian L513+ come in. He doesn't fit in with anybody STR-wise so he is in our L513 unassigned group.

f272519 Ersson(Västernorrland) L513+ Z290+ Z249+ 513- uas

Here is the other one who fits in with me.

fN29541 Sunesson(Tibbhult) L705.2+ L1333- 513-B2-705

Both are a bit east into Sweden so they are on the eastern side of the Scandinavian Peninsula.

Since we are on Germanic language areas here are the L513+ people from Germany and the Netherlands

fN3933 Ammerlaan L513+ 513- uas

f113882 Müller L513+ 513- uas

f131998 Fritts + Z290+ Z249+ CTS3087+ Z1867- 513-D2

TigerMW
06-22-2013, 06:32 PM
I think CTS3087 should make ISOGG soon. We have an L706.2 guy testing for it. We know L193+ is negative for it. We need to get P66 tested.

So far everyone is in L513+ variety 513-D2.

fN83227 Butler R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ CTS3087+ 513-D2
f4479 Devine R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513* L513+ Z290+ Z249+ CTS3087+ L193- L706.2- L69- L144- L195- L564- L580- L577- L908- L909- L1333- L9- L10- L130- 513-D2
fN112468 Diver R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ CTS3087+ Z1867- L577- L9- L10- 513-D2
f131998 Fritts R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ CTS3087+ Z1867- 513-D2
fN114377 McNabb R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ CTS3087+ 513-D2

The GD between Fritts and Diver at 67 is 13 so the diversity requirement is met.

RobertCasey
06-23-2013, 04:33 AM
My little piece of the L513+ clade is L706.2+ L705.2+. We seem to be about a 1000 years old and many of us have connections to Wales or Welsh surnames.

Here is my updated review of L706.2 and L705.2 (since you asked so nicely:)):

http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L21/Analysis/R_L21_Analysis_L706&L705.html

http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L21/DNAResults/L706_20130622D.xls

I also recently reviewed another L513 SNP, L193 this month (this spreadsheet can be resorted by surname clusters):

http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L21/Analysis/R_L21_Analysis_L193.html

http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L21/DNAResults/L193_20130613A.xls

drg250000
06-23-2013, 03:53 PM
Hi Mike,

I am the Scandinavian mentioned above. Thank you for posting my information.

The Administrators of the FTDNA R1b1a2 and Subclades project have my Y results categorized as P312> Z290 / Z245 / L459 / L21 (Please order DF13 / Z2542 and/or DF63). It's a little confusing to me since I test positive for L513 and DF13 / Z2542 and/or DF63 are all upstream from L513. According to a chart dated 21 November 2012 identifying R-L21 SNPs tested by Geno 2.0 and "A la carte" SNPs the only downstream SNP I haven't had tested is L193. I believe the chart was created by David Reynolds. I am trying to understand the logic of testing upstream SNPs that I presumably test positive for (DF13) when the new information (L193) would give me additional granularity on my genetic identity. I'll test the upstream SNPs if there is a compelling reason. What do folks here think about my logic? Thank you in advance.

drg250000
06-23-2013, 04:07 PM
Also as a technical matter, my most distant ancestor, Ersson (Nyström?) is based on an unverified record from a cousin. Ersson's presumed son is Johan Olof Nyström, b. 4 Jan 1825 in Timrå, Västernorrland, Sweden and my g g grandfather. This is verified through family and Swedish census records. Patronymic names were common prior to the 19th century so surname has been of little help beyond Johan Olof Nyström. My hope is to figure out Johan Olof's father by working forward to discover a common genetic region/surname from the British Isles. A long shot by all means. But the paper trail in Sweden hasn't born any fruit. I suspect my Y moved from the British Isles to Scandinavia 500-1200 years ago. Just a hunch. Again, thank you!

RobertCasey
06-24-2013, 03:49 PM
Johan Olof's father by working forward to discover a common genetic region/surname from the British Isles. A long shot by all means. But the paper trail in Sweden hasn't born any fruit. I suspect my Y moved from the British Isles to Scandinavia 500-1200 years ago. Just a hunch. Again, thank you!
This may be a little off topic for genetic research but I have done extensive genealogical research on Olliffs/Oliffs in the US - publishing a 400 page book in 1992. I incorrectly assumed that my Olliff line were Scandinavian immigrants but later learned that it is more likely that my Olliffs descend for English Olliffs who were in England in the 1600s. There are two major branches of Olliffs in the US: one very early line from Virginia in the very early 1700s (40 % of all US lines with this surname) and one very major line that moved to Georgia in the late 1700s (50 % of all lines with this surname) and then 10 % with many different Scandinavian and English origins. Here is a link of my 7,500 Olliff cousins in the US which includes some information on all Olliff lines in the US (the Brooks book has 1,500 descendants of my ancestors, Williamson Brooks and Susannah (Olliff) Brooks that are not included in the Olliff Family History:

http://www.rcasey.net/acrstrt2.htm

TigerMW
06-24-2013, 04:11 PM
Here is my updated review of L706.2 and L705.2 (since you asked so nicely:)):

Thanks, Robert. I've posted these links on the 513/11-13 yahoo group as well. I went out and found that Rowland. I also am trying different Y search runs for the key markers and am toggling on and off YCAIIb=23 as a filter per your suggestion.

TigerMW
06-24-2013, 04:52 PM
Hi Mike,

I am the Scandinavian mentioned above. Thank you for posting my information.

The Administrators of the FTDNA R1b1a2 and Subclades project have my Y results categorized as P312> Z290 / Z245 / L459 / L21 (Please order DF13 / Z2542 and/or DF63). It's a little confusing to me since I test positive for L513 and DF13 / Z2542 and/or DF63 are all upstream from L513. According to a chart dated 21 November 2012 identifying R-L21 SNPs tested by Geno 2.0 and "A la carte" SNPs the only downstream SNP I haven't had tested is L193. I believe the chart was created by David Reynolds. I am trying to understand the logic of testing upstream SNPs that I presumably test positive for (DF13) when the new information (L193) would give me additional granularity on my genetic identity. I'll test the upstream SNPs if there is a compelling reason. What do folks here think about my logic? Thank you in advance.

I don't think you need to test for upstream SNPs at this point. The large haplogroup projects can't always keep up on all the new and private SNPs. For people who have already found a deeper subclade, i.e. L513, that's where those sub-projects (i.e. L513/11-13) are more valuable. Since you are L513+, by default (presumption of the Y DNA phylogenetic tree) you are L21+ DF13+ and DF63-. Also downstream of DF13+ you are DF49- DF21- Z253- Z255- Z251- DF41-, etc. and any of the peers to L513.

Are you talking about this chart from David Reynolds?
http://daver.info/geno/results/R-L513.pdf

This is David Reynold's comparison of Walk the Y an Geno 2.0 SNP testing for R1b-L513 people like you and me. I don't see you, 272519, on David's chart. Have you sent him your raw results file from Geno 2.0? This is imperative. Here are the instructions:
http://daver.info/geno/

David will compare you with the other L513 people and with the base DF13* upstream SNPs to see if you have any new ones or match any of the L513 specific (downstream) SNPs already discovered. Unfortunately, some of the more important ones for us, L193, L706.2, L705.2, L69; aren't tested (or tested correctly) in Geno 2.0.

If you are talking about the L513 descendency tree chart at R1b-L513-tree or the L513/11-13 yahoo group, I put this one together
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b-L513_Descendency_Tree.jpg

I use David Reynold's chart as input along, as well as ISOGG's haplogroup R tree and the Y DNA SNP report on the L513/11-13 project screens.

As you know, based on your Y STR patterns, I've got you in "L513 unnassigned". I can't find anyone I'd say is particularly close to you Genetic Distance and STR signature-wise. The chart above shows you that the primary formal options for you are to test for L193, L706.2 and P66. P66 is only found in three people so I don't recommend that. CTS3087 is a new one that could have decent breadth within L513, however, you may already be tested CTS3087-. David Reynolds has to look at the raw results file to tell us.

TigerMW
06-24-2013, 05:18 PM
We've had another Scandinavian L513+ come in. He doesn't fit in with anybody STR-wise so he is in our L513 unassigned group.

f272519 Ersson(Västernorrland) L513+ Z290+ Z249+

Scott, I checked the Y DNA SNP report screen.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21-1113Combo/default.aspx?section=ysnp

The following "CTS" (Chris Tyler Smith is the researcher-scientist discoverer) should be in your Geno 2.0 raw results. We know they are found downstream of L513.
CTS3087, CTS6621, CTS6942,CTS11744, CTS6621, CTS6942

I don't see that you are positive for any of these, but we have to be careful. Geno 2.0 doesn't report "negatives" (ancestral results) in their summary information. You could be (and probably are) negative for these but you might also have "no calls" which means that element of the Geno 2.0 test didn't work. This is why David Reynolds has to look at the raw results.

TigerMW
06-24-2013, 08:27 PM
Good news! An L513** guy has ordered the Fullgenomes test - Reid f228772

drg250000
06-25-2013, 11:33 AM
Mike, thank you!

You have really helped me understand how to interpret Geno 2.0 results and how to think about my "ancestral place" and placement in the FTDNA 513 Project. I really appreciate your interest and patience with my case, despite my inexperience with genetic genealogy and difficult goals. ;-)

The chart I was referring to from David Reynolds is at: http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534765273249/

I will submit my Geno 2.0 file to Mr. Reynolds as soon as possible.

Geno 2.0 has my primary Y-chromosome deep ancestry as "German" (48%). Do you know if that is consistent with other R1b-L513s who have tested with Geno 2.0?

Again, many thanks!

Best,

Scott

TigerMW
06-25-2013, 12:48 PM
Scott, we are just glad to have you. Your geographical origins are not the norm for L513, but I'm not sure what the norm should be.


The chart I was referring to from David Reynolds is at: http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534765273249/
That chart is not David's site and may be not his current version. I try to keep a current chart for L21 but I don't differentiate the SNPs like David is doing between which can be ordered via FTDNA or not. I'll look into that but it's enough of an eye chart already.
http://tinyurl.com/R1b-L21-Tree
In the above chart, the goldish column is L513. Of course, it is like a family tree and therefore L513 people wouldn't care about SNPs found only in the other (brother) columns. The SNPs that are in rectangles have known positions.

The chart below is a more detailed breakdown of L513. Each of the clouds represents an STR based subgrouping that I call varieties or clusters. The STR patterns that dictate the subgroupings are called STR signatures. These STR signature based varieties are not iron-clad. They should be considered speculative because STRs can mutate up and down multiple times causing coincidental convergence. Ideally we'll eventually find an SNP or two for each cloud to turn them into SNP based and officially recognized subclades. This is not outside of the realm of possibilities as an SNP occurs on the Y chromosome more than once, on average for every two father-son transmissions.
http://tinyurl.com/R1b-L513-Tree


I will submit my Geno 2.0 file to Mr. Reynolds as soon as possible.
Thank you, that's probably the best first step. David can confirm what you are negative for and may discover an SNP pertinent for L513.


Geno 2.0 has my primary Y-chromosome deep ancestry as "German" (48%). Do you know if that is consistent with other R1b-L513s who have tested with Geno 2.0? t
Does it say your Y chromosome is that or your autosomal chromesome mix? Generally, I'm not sure we can classify Y chromosomes discretely by ethnicities since they are passed down only from father to son. For instance your Y chromosome only comes from one of your four grand-parents, one of your 16 great-grand parents, etc. If your father's father's father was German but all other 15 great-grandparents were Italian what does that make your Y chromosome? We could say German but some of these SNPs, like L21, were probably around before a German language was ever spoken. I prefer to look at it as our paternal lineage (Y chromosome) may have been different things at different points in time.

I haven't seen those reports for L513 Geno 2 testers. We could probably ask that on the L513 yahoo group and see who responds. My guess is there would be more British Isles types than anything. L513, like L21 is heavily British Isles centric, but there are a couple of factors to consider. First, FTDNA's customers are primarily American and the U.S. has substantially strong proportion of European immigration from the Isles. Second, the modern distribution pattern of L513 may not represent the ancient pattern and the diversity of haplotypes is more important than the frequency for determining origins.

Your autosomal mix is good evidence that your paternal lineage is where your genealogy says it should be from. Another point of evidence is how you fit into those L513 clusters/varieties. You don't. Almost all of those are British Isles focused varieties. If you fit into one of those that was young that might indicate a late movement for your lineage from the British Isles to Scandinavia or even some kind of NPE. However, you don't fit.

From my personal perspective, I'm curious about your L706.2 status. You don't fit into group B2 with me but if you ended up being L706.2+ that would show you are a very early branch off from the other L706.2 people. That may be sound like gobbledygook but in cultural/geographical terms several of the families in B2 have traditions as being Cambro-Normans (think Welsh-Normans). I think we are of the Welsh or Old Briton type on the paternal lineage side but I really don't know. We do have Frenchman, Bergeron, in B2 and we also have a Swede from Ostergotland, Hakkeson (MDKA - the descendant name is actually Wallentinus). The history is the Normans come from French Normandy as a mixture of Norsemen, Bretons, Flemish, Romano-Gauls, etc. It seems remote but there is Norse possibility. One explanation is one that Anthony Barrett has initiated on the yahoo group. He thinks L513 comes from the Veneti tribe in the French Brittany area. They were excellent seafarers and caused problems for the Romans until the Romans came up with a winning strategy for battling them at sea. The Veneti then dispersed with the bulk going to the western side of Great Britain. Sounds as reasonable as anything I've heard. L513 appears to be 2500 years old so the timing could fit.

drg250000
06-26-2013, 03:47 AM
Hi Mike,

Thank you! I am really enjoying what you have to teach me.

I believe you are right, the "German" reference group is autosomal DNA.

Also, I have emailed my Geno 2.0 results to David Reynolds.

I feel fortunate to have such dedicated L513 brothers.

Again, thank you!

TigerMW
06-28-2013, 01:05 PM
I've updated R1b-L513_Haplotypes spreadsheet and have .pdf file for it too. I regularly post this spreadsheet in the Links section of this Yahoo Group.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1113Combo/links

I now have a .pdf file of the main spreadsheet. It should be viewable with a free .pdf file viewing program. It is the spreadsheet of all the L513 confirmed and suspected people I can find whether they are in the project or not. I put it in the pdf format for people who don't want to use a spreadsheet like MS Excel.

You can get the pdf viewer from Adobe Acrobat for free at their web site: http://get.adobe.com/reader/
As far as I know, it is a very safe program to use. I've never had any problems with it and there must be millions using it. I don't get any emails from Adobe.

TigerMW
06-28-2013, 01:09 PM
I think CTS3087 should make ISOGG soon. We have an L706.2 guy testing for it. We know L193+ is negative for it. We need to get P66 tested.

So far everyone is in L513+ variety 513-D2.

fN83227 Butler R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ CTS3087+ 513-D2
f4479 Devine R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513* L513+ Z290+ Z249+ CTS3087+ L193- L706.2- L69- L144- L195- L564- L580- L577- L908- L909- L1333- L9- L10- L130- 513-D2
fN112468 Diver R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ CTS3087+ Z1867- L577- L9- L10- 513-D2
f131998 Fritts R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ CTS3087+ Z1867- 513-D2
fN114377 McNabb R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 L513+ Z290+ Z249+ CTS3087+ 513-D2

The GD between Fritts and Diver at 67 is 13 so the diversity requirement is met.

We've not got both an L706.2+ guy, Gardiner, and a P66+ guy, J.McKown, with CTS3087 on order. We already know that L193+ is CTS3087-. As soon as we get these results in we should be able to get CTS3087 on the ISOGG official tree!

TigerMW
07-02-2013, 03:47 AM
I've updated R1b-L513_Haplotypes spreadsheet and have .pdf file for it too. I regularly post this spreadsheet in the Links section of this Yahoo Group.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1113Combo/links

I now have a .pdf file of the main spreadsheet. It should be viewable with a free .pdf file viewing program. It is the spreadsheet of all the L513 confirmed and suspected people I can find whether they are in the project or not. I put it in the pdf format for people who don't want to use a spreadsheet like MS Excel.

You can get the pdf viewer from Adobe Acrobat for free at their web site: http://get.adobe.com/reader/
As far as I know, it is a very safe program to use. I've never had any problems with it and there must be millions using it. I don't get any emails from Adobe.

I don't know what I was thinking, but I forgot to post the link to the pdf file/print of the Allhts tab of the spreadsheet.
http://tinyurl.com/R1b-L513-Haplotypes-pdf

TigerMW
08-09-2013, 12:38 PM
This is a bit of a surprise and I'd like to verify it and then look for more detail on other potential SNPs in these two samples.

The recent report, "Low-Pass DNA Sequencing of 1200 Sardinians Reconstructs European Y-Chromosome Phylogeny" by Francalacci, et. al. has a couple of L21+ people in it.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/341/6145/565.abstract

Maciamo Hay of Eupedia has looked at the details and says that two individuals are L513+.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28934-Sardinian-Y-DNA-Phylogeny-per-Francalacci-et-al-2013?p=413296&viewfull=1#post413296

He attributed them to the Vandals. Maciamo Hay wrote, [I]"The Vandals were the first to reach the Italian peninsula. They had migrated to Iberia, then crossed over the North Africa in 429, where they founded a kingdom that also comprised Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica. Sardinia is the best place to look for traces of their DNA because on the one hand it is the best studied region of Italy, and on the other hand no other Germanic peoples settled there (apart from a very brief Gothic reign), which means that the presence of Germanic lineages on the island would incontestably be of Vandalic origin. Based on the detailed Y-chromosomal study of 1200 Sardinians by Francalacci et al. (2013), the Vandals appeared to have carried 35% of R1a, 29% of I2a2a, 24% of R1b, 6% of I2a1b and a mere 6% of I1. The subclades identified were I1a3a2 (L1237+), I2a2a (L699+ and CTS616+), I2a1b (M423+), R1a-Z282 (incl. some Z280+), R1a-M458 (L1029+), R1b-U106 (Z381+), R1b-L21 (DF13>L513+), R1b-DF27 (Z196>Z209+). The probable the reason for the elevated (Proto-)Slavic R1a and the presence of the Eastern European I2-M423 is that the Vandals stayed in Poland before migrating to the Roman Empire. Over a third of Vandalic male lineages were therefore of Proto-Slavic origin."[INDENT/I] http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml#roman_empire_middle_ages

I've downloaded the supplementary tables but I'm not sure how to read them. I'd like to locate the two L513+ individuals and see if there are any novel SNPs or if they might have L193, P66, L69, L705.2, L706.2, L577, CTS3087 or CTS1867.

Dubhthach
08-14-2013, 02:59 PM
Mike,

There's a new L706.2+ in the Ireland project today. Details are:
289221 -- O'Brien -- L706.2+ (no other SNP's tested)

As he's a GD of 6 from yourself you are probably not surprised by the result!

-Paul
(DF41+)

TigerMW
08-14-2013, 08:26 PM
Mike,
There's a new L706.2+ in the Ireland project today. Details are:
289221 -- O'Brien -- L706.2+ (no other SNP's tested)
Thanks, Paul. I hadn't noticed his result. I tried to get him to test for L705.2 first, because I think he is L705.2+ as well but he decided to take the systematic route.

That puts us up to 18 L706.2+. All but one appear to be L705.2+ as well.

f178598 Adams L705.2+ L69- England, West Midlands, Shropshire
f36619 Banks L705.2+ England
f85844 Bergeron L705.2+ France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, La Rochelle
f8132 Barrett L705.2+ zzzUnkOrigin
f193851 Barrett L705.2+ L144- zzzUnkOrigin
f202969 Edwards L705.2+ L144- zzzUnkOrigin
f211625 Jones L705.2+ Wales
f35601 Lewis L705.2+ Wales, South, Glamorganshire
f24438 Munnerlyn L705.2+ UK
f82655 Morris L705.2+ Wales, South, Monmouthshire, Tintern Parva, Piercefield
f289221 O'Brien L706.2+ Ireland
f74823 Owen L705.2+ Wales
f60411 Phillips(Eng) L705.2+ England
f142841 Pitts L705.2+ zzzUnkOrigin
fN29541 Sunesson(Tibbhult) L705.2+ L1333- Sweden, Kalmar län, Tibbhult
fN54638 Walsh L705.2+ L144- L195- L908- L909- L130- L192.1- L69- 3c1g Ireland, Leinster, Co. Kilkenny (possibly South Wales before that)
f35532 zzzUnk(Brown) L705.2+ zzzUnkOrigin

The maximum GD to the modal for the above group is 9 at 67 STRs. The average is 5.

At 111 STRs, the average GD to the modal is only 9 and the maximum is 16.

We are not that distantly related so I hold hope that we'll figure something out some day. There is Welsh bent to this group for sure.

R.Rocca
08-15-2013, 12:35 PM
I've downloaded the supplementary tables but I'm not sure how to read them. I'd like to locate the two L513+ individuals and see if there are any novel SNPs or if they might have L193, P66, L69, L705.2, L706.2, L577, CTS3087 or CTS1867.

Mike, in the supplementary material, there are two L21+ samples (1016 &1017). None of the SNPs below L513 that you mentioned above are in the supplied data, so they are either negative for all of them, or in some cases, fell outside the testing mask they used to sequence. The two samples share the following SNPs:

15654428 C>G (L21)
7340450 C>T (L513)
19068703 C>T
6795128 G>A
17660414 A>G
14382701 C>T
15224008 T>C

The five additional SNPs these two samples share are not found in any of the databases I've checked. Dare we call it "The Sardinian Cluster"??? :)

TigerMW
08-15-2013, 01:00 PM
Mike, in the supplementary material, there are two L21+ samples (1016 &1017). None of the SNPs below L513 that you mentioned above are in the supplied data, so they are either negative for all of them, or in some cases, fell outside the testing mask they used to sequence. The two samples share the following SNPs:

15654428 C>G (L21)
7340450 C>T (L513)
19068703 C>T
6795128 G>A
17660414 A>G
14382701 C>T
15224008 T>C

The five additional SNPs these two samples share are not found in any of the databases I've checked. Dare we call it "The Sardinian Cluster"??? :)
Thanks, Richard.

We have a guy taking the Fullgenomes.com test. I suppose that is our only option for looking for these novel SNPs.

I don't know what they are. I'm sure some will think they are Irish mercenaries and others Normans. I don't know how or why Welsh would be there unless this is some kind of Roman slave trade thing. We do have a couple of guys from Sweden and Germany, and one from Finland, which prompted Maciamo Hay to say these L513 Sardinians are Vandals.

I really don't have a clue, just speculations in the purest sense of the word.

I suppose we should keep in mind the higher percentages of L21 in Bologna.

R.Rocca
08-15-2013, 02:23 PM
Thanks, Richard.

We have a guy taking the Fullgenomes.com test. I suppose that is our only option for looking for these novel SNPs.

I don't know what they are. I'm sure some will think they are Irish mercenaries and others Normans. I don't know how or why Welsh would be there unless this is some kind of Roman slave trade thing. We do have a couple of guys from Sweden and Germany, and one from Finland, which prompted Maciamo Hay to say these L513 Sardinians are Vandals.

I really don't have a clue, just speculations in the purest sense of the word.

I suppose we should keep in mind the higher percentages of L21 in Bologna.

Unfortunately Maciamo likes to put everything into historical contexts (Romans, Celts, Greeks, Vikings, etc.) when we know most of these higher branches are much older.

Aside from Bologna, we don't have to go very far to explain a possible source of Sardinian L21:

Alpes De Haute Provence (Ramos-Luis 2009) = 19.4%
South East France (Marseilles, Ramos-Luis 2009) = 11.1%
Vaucluse (Upstream Rhone, Myres 2010) = 8.2%

Jon
09-17-2013, 08:11 PM
Hi Guys,
Jon here: just joined the site. I am L193+ and interested in any developments in L21/513/193 in general. I was having major technical trouble with the new Yahoo format so thought I'd switch over!
Best,

Jon

TigerMW
09-19-2013, 04:22 AM
Hi Guys,
Jon here: just joined the site. I am L193+ and interested in any developments in L21/513/193 in general. I was having major technical trouble with the new Yahoo format so thought I'd switch over! ..
Hi, Jon. Anything in particular that you are looking for related to L193? I am encouraging people to upgrade to 111 STRs. For L193, this is really helpful because there are so many surnames yet people are fairly recently related.

Jon
09-23-2013, 06:47 PM
Hi, Jon. Anything in particular that you are looking for related to L193? I am encouraging people to upgrade to 111 STRs. For L193, this is really helpful because there are so many surnames yet people are fairly recently related.

Hi Mike,

I am interested in how the historical/subclade origin is developing. I regularly check the map on Semargl, and it still seems very Scotland specific. It looks like some kind of indigenous Scottish group (Picts/Britons?) although I am by no means an expert in this. My own ancestors are based in west Ayrshire, but there are no other Sharps (my surname) in L193 so far, so I may be a singleton.

I am seriously considering spending the money to update to 111 though! Is that worth it in your opinion?

Thanks again,

Jon

Jon
09-30-2013, 07:40 PM
Hi Guys,

Sorry to ask what might be seen as a newbie question, but I'm still kinda getting used to all this!

I was wondering how closely related the different branches of L513 are...I'm L193, but how close is that related to the others, such as L69.5, L705 etc.? Is there a diagram which might illustrate this relatedness anywhere?

BTW I've also upgraded to 111 markers now...awaiting results :)

Thanks,

Jon

TigerMW
09-30-2013, 08:46 PM
Hi Guys,

Sorry to ask what might be seen as a newbie question, but I'm still kinda getting used to all this!

I was wondering how closely related the different branches of L513 are...I'm L193, but how close is that related to the others, such as L69.5, L705 etc.? Is there a diagram which might illustrate this relatedness anywhere?

BTW I've also upgraded to 111 markers now...awaiting results :)

Thanks,

Jon

Hi, Jon. Sorry I missed your previous post. That's great news you are upgrading to 111 markers. That will help us look for differences in L193 people. They are so closely alike at 67 STRs, that we are hoping for some discerning markers in 68-111.

The below picture shows the best depiction I have of the descendency from the common ancestor for L513/DF1.

http://tinyurl.com/R1b-L513-Tree
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b-L513_Descendency_Tree.jpg

Note I label several groups as "A" groups. "A1" is L193. We had marked your group off as A1 before L193 was discovered. We we've pushed the edges of L193 a bit and found there are some A1 looking people that are L193-.

The most look-alike group is A3. It is solely made up of Kelly's, who appear to be from Co. Kildare. This can not be proven, but I would place A3 as the closest group to A1. I use to think the Kelly's of Kildare were very closely related to the A1 Elliott's but SNP testing has shown the Kelly's to be L193-.

Two other groups that might be next in line in closeness of relationship are A2 and A4. A2 represents mostly Maguire's and Byrnes folks from the Cos. Monaghan and Fermanagh. In this case, A2 as additional meaning. It's was named the Airghelli II modal.

A4 is a smaller group consisting mainly of Clifton's, with few others like Jester, Willis, Clements and an Adams. This subgroup is quite speculative and needs more SNP testing.

The primary thing I'm linking A1, A2, A3 and A4 together with is the off-modal 640=12. 640 is very slow moving so this has its merits but the GD's of A2 and A4 to A1 are large so this is quite speculative.

On the other hand, A3 looks to be closely related to A1/L193.

We need to discover more SNPs. Unfortunately for L193 (as well as fortunately), they were an early discovery and included in the old FTDNA deep clade package. The result is we discovered quite a few people but they think they feel like they've identified their ultimate (terminal) SNP, or at least close enough.

TigerMW
09-30-2013, 08:49 PM
Jon, is here a breakdown of 513-A1 (L193) folks by country:

England - 30 (mostly northerly)
Scotland 169 - (mostly Borders region)
Ireland - (heavy Ulster orientation)
Germany - 1
Hungary - 1

Many of the folks in Ulster think they migrated there in more recent times from Scotland.

I'm pretty sure this has something to with the Borders region and possibly even the the Border Reivers folks as three of the largest sunames in these people are Little/Lytle, Glendenninng/Clendenon/Glendonwyn and Elliott/Elwood. Adam B has written a report you should read. There seems to be some tie back to a "Douglas" character. They do not necessarily relate to him on the Y side, but appear to have some kind of alliance.

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/1113Combo/files/Cluster_Analysis_A-1_Clade_Report.pdf

If you take out the Little's, the group is fairly young, like about 1000 years old. The Little's have two odd mutations, that may both me multi-step. That's my guess so I really do think this is a young subclade that was prolific.

Two other large surnames in this are a Highland McClain/MacLean group and a Vance/Van/Vaux(of Barnbarroch) group. Some in the latter think they may be from France. I have no idea.

Adam Bradford reports,
"The Elliott, Glendonwyn, and Little branches all have traditions of descent not just to the borders region, but to the same small area of the borders around Eskdale, Ewesdale, and Liddisdale.
....
An (McClain) origin near Inverness would be supported by McClain tradition, since a significant branch was established there in the year 1398
...
The A1 Vaus group contains the lineal heir of Barnbarroch, who has a reliable pedigree based on
documentary evidence to Robert Vaus of Barnbarroch (fl.1450s)..... Before Dirleton, it is generally accepted that the Scottish Vaux were from the same family as the Vaux of Gillisland in Cumberland, England."

Jon
09-30-2013, 09:00 PM
Hi Mike,

Brilliant, many thanks. The speculation as to where L193 came from, indeed all the markers, is very exciting. I guess time will tell. From what I can tell, 513 seems very British/Irish, with the sub-clades then representing individual lines coming from specific areas. In terms of Dalriada or Pict or Angle etc. etc. that might be too much to expect I guess...

One final question: do you have any idea in which part of Scotland L193 is oldest?

I wonder if I could ask you to look over my 111 results when they are in to let me know which grouping within L193 I most closely fit with (if any!). My paper trail ran out and there are possibilities in most all of the L193 areas as to where our line might go to, so any more detail will be fantastic!

Many thanks,

Jon

Jon
12-26-2013, 11:21 AM
Hey Guys,
Does anyone know of any link which shows up the age/order of development of sub-groups within L513? It would be cool to see how, if at all, they are related to one another, and if, for instance, one looks likely to have led to the development of another. However, it might not work this way, I have no idea! Thanks! Happy new year to all of you,
Jon

Jon
01-18-2014, 05:30 PM
I wanted to post a new topic, as a direct male line relative of mine got a DNA test (Scotland's DNA) for his Christmas. Although I knew he'd be L193 as I am, there were some interesting aspects I wanted to share with you.

I quote from his results: "The newly discovered S215 subtype (L513) includes a number of Irish and British clusters - about 5% of Hebridean men carry this subtype."

It was news to me that as many as 5% of men in the Hebrides are L513 (my understanding of the Hebrides is all of the western isles of Scotland; NOT including Orkney/Shetland). I wondered if any of you were aware of this statistic?

They also prided themselves on being able to give a breakdown of L21 by UK and Irish region. This was also very interesting: an almost 10% difference in frequency between Scotland south-west (31%) and south-east (22%). Even Ulster was less than that, at only 23% L21. Highest regions were west Ireland (58%) and Wales (47%). England East/ south-east were only 16% and 13%. There is, according to these numbers at least, a very marked slant of L21 to the west, and 'celtic' regions of the UK.

As far as my interests, I am still fascinated by:

1. L513 in general and how it fits with L21 progeny; It seems general isles, but again with a marked bias towards Ireland and Scotland?

2. L193: how/where did this split from L513. I assume this happened in Scotland, but where did it come from before? Are we any closer to being able to trace that?

Jon

palamede
01-18-2014, 05:46 PM
Jon,

The Scotlandsdna/..L21 frequencies are the sum of L21* + M222* +L113 + L159.2 + CTS2187 + L744 + L226

Total S145/L21=38,3% S145/L21* Predani 23,5% M222 Ancient Irish 7,0% S539/L1335 Pictish 4,9% S169.2/L159.2 (below Z255) Hibernia 1,0% S190/CTS2187 (below DF21) Maeatae (south of the Caledonii, north of the Antonine Wall) 1,1% L744/S388 (below DF41) Royal Stewart 0,4% L226/S168 (below Z253) Dalcassian 0,1%

You don't stated the frequencies of R-L21, but these of R-L21* or R-L21 (xM222,L113,L159.2,CTS2187,L444,L226).

Dubhthach
01-18-2014, 06:00 PM
It's early days on their testing statistics if you ask me. They don't tell us let how many men is in each sample group. For example: 33% of 12 men is only 4. Ideally they need large samples from each geographic area (on the order of at least 1,000) to get a better stat.

-Paul
(DF41+)

rms2
01-19-2014, 04:49 AM
It's early days on their testing statistics if you ask me. They don't tell us let how many men is in each sample group. For example: 33% of 12 men is only 4. Ideally they need large samples from each geographic area (on the order of at least 1,000) to get a better stat.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Yeah, I think Busby et al still supplies the best test stats for L21 in the Isles.

TigerMW
01-19-2014, 02:47 PM
It's early days on their testing statistics if you ask me. They don't tell us let how many men is in each sample group. For example: 33% of 12 men is only 4. Ideally they need large samples from each geographic area (on the order of at least 1,000) to get a better stat.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Agreed. We don't the sample sizes and distributions.

TigerMW
01-19-2014, 02:58 PM
....
1. L513 in general and how it fits with L21 progeny; It seems general isles, but again with a marked bias towards Ireland and Scotland? This is similar to L21 generally. Wales is also big for L513 and l21. I think all of this is just an inverse reflection of how large numbers of non-L21 people came into England with the Anglo-Saxon Era and possibly the Roman Era to some degree.


2. L193: how/where did this split from L513. I assume this happened in Scotland, but where did it come from before? Are we any closer to being able to trace that? I don't know where L513 split off from DF13.
I will say I think the first or among the first L513+ men was a man that also had mutations 406s1 from 10 to 11 and 617 from 12 to 13 since it is so prevalent among L513. If we can find an SNP immediately upstream of L513 and downstream of DF13 and we find subsets that are either 406s1=11 or 617=13 we might have a shot at figuring out where the branching occurred.
Hopefully Next Generation Sequencing like Big Y or FGC will give us the answers.

France is way undertested. France west of a line from La Rochelle to Paris to Calais is a critical area for L21. There are lots of P312+ U152- people in that region and we don't know how many are L21 versus DF27 versus something else.

Jon
01-21-2014, 04:44 PM
Thanks for the input guys. I have also come across the work of a guy called Alan Milliken, who has looked at M222 in particular. He may contribute here, I'm not sure. There was a discussion over at rootsweb a year or so ago about relative distribution of M222 compared with others, including L193 and L69. I e-mailed him to see if he's come up with anything since. It'S tricky, and I agree that more testing seems to be the only way to get more concrete answers.

drg250000
03-02-2014, 01:10 AM
Hey Mike and All,

With all the excitement surrounding the Big-Y results, my genetic genealogy news is rather marginal.

I recently tested for L1333 as suggested by Robert Casey last year and just received my results. The results are negative.

I'm guessing this result likely places my Y subclade closer to the L513 origin compared to a positive result.

As a memory jog, here is a link to Robert Casey's analysis and recommendation:

http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L21/Analysis/R_L21_Analysis_CTS2687.html

Many thanks to Mike and Robert for their important work and personal guidance on my behalf.

Your genetically and geographically isolated L513 brother otherwise known as the "Celtic Swede", ;-)

Scott Nystrom
R1b=>L513=>CTS2687

Mag Uidhir 6
03-22-2014, 12:40 AM
Well, it's in finally!! kit no 226869 J. McGuire in L513-A-2-M (FGC id 6PN7S) I believe Mike has the data in his in box, but if not I have a separate copy that I can upload to the Yahoo group, if required.

I know the flood gates are truly opening for all of L21+ now ... finding the best comparative tool and methodology....whew. We shall see!!

Brad

TigerMW
06-18-2014, 10:32 PM
Well, it's in finally!! kit no 226869 J. McGuire in L513-A-2-M (FGC id 6PN7S) I believe Mike has the data in his in box, but if not I have a separate copy that I can upload to the Yahoo group, if required.

I know the flood gates are truly opening for all of L21+ now ... finding the best comparative tool and methodology....whew. We shall see!!

Brad

Brad, I have kit 226869 included in the "1st pass" gold only/derived comparison. However, that means your derived outside of the gold regions were not shown so it is all apples to apples.

The "2nd pass" or "V2" spreadsheets you've seen for L513 will have the shades of gray inclusion of all kinds of derived calls of various qualities. I've tried to reach each SNP by quality and rate each test call by quality. It's interesting but I think the important thing is the phylogenetic consistency. Even L69 is a piece of evidence for your group.

Magnus.AlmRosenblad
01-01-2017, 07:52 PM
Hi,

I am a "new" Scandinavian L513, just transferred my Geno 2.0 data to FTDNA and have also ordered Geno 2 NGS but have no results yet.

If I order another test, I'd like to get some advice on which one to choose. I would very much like to contribute to the L513 project.

Looking at my data, I could see 4 of the CTS SNPs that were mentioned by Mikewww as downstream L513 to be interesting for scandis:

# L513/S215/DF1*>*S6365*>*Z16361*> CTS750
CTS3087,Y,G,G (14655169-G-A)

#*L513/S215/DF1*>*S6365*> L705
L705,Y,T,T (3436215-G-T)
L706,Y,A,A (3436218-G-A)
CTS6621,Y,T,T (17014155-T-C)
CTS6942,Y,G,G ( 17203952-G-T )
CTS11744,Y,G,G (23246598-G-A)

I tried to find others but have not seen any (just searching manually though).

My oldest verified ancestor was born 1866 in the east of southern Sweden, 150 km south of Tibbhult (fN29541, Sunesson).


/Magnus Alm Rosenblad
Kit N229719
//

TigerMW
01-01-2017, 08:39 PM
Hi,

I am a "new" Scandinavian L513, just transferred my Geno 2.0 data to FTDNA and have also ordered Geno 2 NGS but have no results yet.

If I order another test, I'd like to get some advice on which one to choose. I would very much like to contribute to the L513 project.

Looking at my data, I could see 4 of the CTS SNPs that were mentioned by Mikewww as downstream L513 to be interesting for scandis:

# L513/S215/DF1*>*S6365*>*Z16361*> CTS750
CTS3087,Y,G,G (14655169-G-A)

#*L513/S215/DF1*>*S6365*> L705
L705,Y,T,T (3436215-G-T)
L706,Y,A,A (3436218-G-A)
CTS6621,Y,T,T (17014155-T-C)
CTS6942,Y,G,G ( 17203952-G-T )
CTS11744,Y,G,G (23246598-G-A)

I tried to find others but have not seen any (just searching manually though).

My oldest verified ancestor was born 1866 in the east of southern Sweden, 150 km south of Tibbhult (fN29541, Sunesson).


/Magnus Alm Rosenblad
Kit N229719
//

Welcome. Please also join the R1b-L513-project yahoo group. I will look at your results tonight or tomorrow. Do you have any Y STRs? You have to have some STRs to show up on the project displays.

Magnus.AlmRosenblad
01-02-2017, 10:16 PM
Hi, thanks for reply ...

Sorry, but I only have Geno 2.0 data, will transfer Geno 2 NGS when the result arrives.

Is it any good to also order some other test? Y111? Or is it better to wait until Geno 2 NGS has been analyzed?
Although I work with DNA analysis, human data of this kind is new to me.

Will check Yahoo group!

/Magnus

TigerMW
01-02-2017, 10:23 PM
Hi, thanks for reply ...

Sorry, but I only have Geno 2.0 data, will transfer Geno 2 NGS when the result arrives.

Is it any good to also order some other test? Y111? Or is it better to wait until Geno 2 NGS has been analyzed?
Although I work with DNA analysis, human data of this kind is new to me.

Will check Yahoo group!

/Magnus

For R1b-L513, we pretty much need 67 Y STRs to tell much. Two of our key STR markers are DYS406s1=11 and DYS617=13 or "11-13". Our original project was name the "11-13 Combo" project for these two markers before we knew they were an underlying indicator of the L513+ SNP status. You have to have the 38-67 STR panel (which means ordering all 67) to see your status. There are many other key markers for the various subgroupings.

If you can go all the way to 111 Y STRs. Almost half of our project is at 111 STRs. At that point, we can check your matches and may find there are only one or two SNPs that are pertinent and you need to test for.

In any case, 111 STRs is a good investment for FTDNA's matching database.

Magnus.AlmRosenblad
01-03-2017, 11:28 AM
Many thanks Mike,

have now ordered y111.

Looking forward to seeing the results!

/Magnus

TigerMW
01-03-2017, 02:15 PM
Many thanks Mike,

have now ordered y111.

Looking forward to seeing the results!

/Magnus
Very good, Magnus. We have a couple of different Scandinavian subgroups in the project. It has always been intriguing the figure out how we are connected. That Sunneson has an MDKA back to the 16th century in Sweden and is my subgroup.

There is one solid Swedish group. Some think they are related to a tribe called the Menapi.

TigerMW
08-02-2017, 04:29 PM
Richard R, can you see the read for these two Sardinians, 1016 and 1017, at 02700269 ?

We have found that 06795128-G-A is FGC9776 and we think FGC9776 might be an equivalent to S5668, a very large and early branch of L513.

S5668 is 02700269-A-G. If you find that this is ancestral, this could mean that FGC9776 is older than S5668. This could also imply that these Sardinian L513 folks have been there a long time, and are not recent immigrants from NW Europe.



Mike, in the supplementary material, there are two L21+ samples (1016 &1017). None of the SNPs below L513 that you mentioned above are in the supplied data, so they are either negative for all of them, or in some cases, fell outside the testing mask they used to sequence. The two samples share the following SNPs:

15654428 C>G (L21)
7340450 C>T (L513)
19068703 C>T
6795128 G>A
17660414 A>G
14382701 C>T
15224008 T>C

The five additional SNPs these two samples share are not found in any of the databases I've checked. Dare we call it "The Sardinian Cluster"??? :)