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Passa
07-15-2016, 10:43 PM
Hope it's useful for those interested into this sub-clade.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10471&stc=1

MitchellSince1893
07-15-2016, 10:49 PM
What sources were used to create the map?

Passa
07-15-2016, 10:52 PM
What sources were used to create the map?

Boattini et al. (2013) + U152 FTDNA Project.

Morges
07-16-2016, 04:01 PM
This one overlap better with Celt and Lepontic area, the presence in inner Campania has to do with the deportation of Celto-Ligures in the Roman times, around Beneventum.

MitchellSince1893
07-16-2016, 05:30 PM
Looks like Z36 "poured" in through eastern Switzerland and spread out from that entry point.

Is there going to be an L2 map?

Passa
07-16-2016, 07:39 PM
Looks like Z36 "poured" in through eastern Switzerland and spread out from that entry point.

Is there going to be an L2 map?

Yes, like, now.

Romilius
07-24-2016, 10:01 AM
Thanks for the map: I'm very interested in Z36 subclade.

Mestace
07-24-2016, 08:05 PM
Any chance to find datas for Z36 in the surrounding countries?

MitchellSince1893
07-24-2016, 08:31 PM
Any chance to find datas for Z36 in the surrounding countries?

From the FTDNA U152 project
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1Kpgd2-DEhpu5nC0Ggjwb57UFLNM

Map I made from FTDNA data
10611

From the FTDNA database
10610

Other sources
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1uIAlIG2akvRYgW1IVE4z32amOz0&hl=en_US
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1mJweEYR1cyde7fNDYl1ukazjbnE&hl=en_US

Rhaetus
08-02-2016, 07:03 AM
Thank you for this interesting map; I am "Z36" too - R-U152> Z36> PH2997 et al.> A7992,A7993 - with the oldest male ancestor living in the Lombard Alps in 1380.
Regards,
R.

vettor
08-02-2016, 07:20 AM
They could be the ancient Insubres

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insubres

instead of lombard .................since the Lombards also settled in Vienna area of Austria , is there any Z36 there?

Cascio
08-02-2016, 07:37 AM
Deleted

Cascio
08-02-2016, 07:37 AM
They could be the ancient Insubres

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insubres

instead of lombard .................since the Lombards also settled in Vienna area of Austria , is there any Z36 there?

Or Camuni from the Val Camonica?

vettor
08-02-2016, 09:14 AM
Or Camuni from the Val Camonica?

Cumuni , linguistically are related to Venetic , Raetic, Magre languages...............are they the same branch of people.?
The venetic people absorbed many of the Euganei people . The Euganei are the camunni people

Against Strabo, Pliny considers the Lepontii as a Celtic tribe akin to the Taurisci and classifies the Camunni as a tribe of the Euganei people of northeast Italy, together with the Trumplini of the neighbouring valley, Val Trompia.[19]

Cascio
08-02-2016, 09:39 AM
Maybe Z36 is Helvetian.

Is there not some connection to the Canegrate and Golasecca cultures according to Bertoncini?

Cascio
08-04-2016, 06:08 PM
It is interesting that Z36 is most concentrated between the Swiss and French Jura and northern Tuscany.

pasquale
08-05-2016, 05:32 AM
This one overlap better with Celt and Lepontic area, the presence in inner Campania has to do with the deportation of Celto-Ligures in the Roman times, around Beneventum.

Something that might of help to me, thank you. My name is found primarily in Vitulano about 8 kilometers west of Benevento. I test as L2.

Cascio
08-05-2016, 09:31 AM
The Z36 and L2 maps on this forum do not agree with Bertoncini's Apuani study as Bertoncini suggests that L2 is relatively rare in NW Tuscany.

Boattini's study on the other hand seems to show a heavy L2 presence in the La Spezia/Massa provinces, old ancient "Apuani" country, which straddles the Tuscany/Liguria border.

Can anybody explain this dichotomy?

Agamemnon
08-05-2016, 10:10 AM
While I suspect Z36 originated in the French Jura, the distribution of Z36 seems to correlate with the Golasecca culture.

Francesco62
12-26-2016, 08:21 AM
Hello everyone, I am fully new to DNA analyses and I really know very little of it, even how to read my tests results honestly :(: R1b -U152 > Z36 > ( L671) > A7966 >A7967 > R BY1106.( hope I wrote it properly).

I am of Italian nationality and the known origins of my family in both sides are mainly from Massa in Tuscany, Trieste and I may have a Swiss link in the French speaking canton de Vaud.
As Italy is clearly populated since ages by different ethnicities I am interested to know from really "where " I come from:)

So what is most interesting to me, would be to understand more about the ancient ethnic origins of my forefathers and for this I am already very grateful to Passa and Mitchellsince1893 who posted those maps.
Those data represent now the only things "known" to me at the present moment . I read in Eupedia , from (where a very helpful English participant sent me here ), that Z36 should be the very Celtic branch in the U 152 tree, but that's all I know or ...think to know :)

I made a first DNA test with FTDNA ( Family finder ) don't moths ago and later I purchased a GENO 2:0 making a full transfer of the results to my DNA account 556750.

I could just find in R U152 Group on FTDNA, a man , Samuel Spiker who lived in 1760-1826 ( and his full DNA results seems to be important as paternal ancestor of a Spicer family project ) , as the only one with my same haplogroup R BY 1106 .

I would be grateful and really appreciate to be helped and driven in understanding a bit more of my line and where to look and what to study to learn more .

If I made some involuntary mistakes or breached any rules please forgive me as I am at my very first post and I found a lot of great informations in this site.

I will have no problems of course to share my files with anyone who would be interested in helping me to swim in these charts :)
I guess I have most of the replies in my files but I can't read them :(

CelticGerman
12-26-2016, 09:14 AM
Hello everyone, I am fully new to DNA analyses and I really know very little of it, even how to read my tests results honestly :(: R1b -U152 > Z36 > ( L671) > A7966 >A7967 > R BY1106.( hope I wrote it properly).

I am of Italian nationality and the known origins of my family in both sides are mainly from Massa in Tuscany, Trieste and I may have a Swiss link in the French speaking canton de Vaud.
As Italy is clearly populated since ages by different ethnicities I am interested to know from really "where " I come from:)

So what is most interesting to me, would be to understand more about the ancient ethnic origins of my forefathers and for this I am already very grateful to Passa and Mitchellsince1893 who posted those maps.
Those data represent now the only things "known" to me at the present moment . I read in Eupedia , from (where a very helpful English participant sent me here ), that Z36 should be the very Celtic branch in the U 152 tree, but that's all I know or ...think to know :)

I made a first DNA test with FTDNA ( Family finder ) don't moths ago and later I purchased a GENO 2:0 making a full transfer of the results to my DNA account 556750.

I could just find in R U152 Group on FTDNA, a man , Samuel Spiker who lived in 1760-1826 ( and his full DNA results seems to be important as paternal ancestor of a Spicer family project ) , as the only one with my same haplogroup R BY 1106 .

I would be grateful and really appreciate to be helped and driven in understanding a bit more of my line and where to look and what to study to learn more .

If I made some involuntary mistakes or breached any rules please forgive me as I am at my very first post and I found a lot of great informations in this site.

I will have no problems of course to share my files with anyone who would be interested in helping me to swim in these charts :)

Hi, nice to see your post. I have BY1106 too and several SNPs downstream. I attach a screenshot from Big Tree (I'm "Konther" with the German flag). You should join the FTDNA R U152 group. Besides this, there is a Z36 Facebook group as well. Z36 is considered as Alpin Celtic. What is the origin of your paternal line (the Y-chromosome line), Toscana?

13318

Francesco62
12-26-2016, 10:18 AM
Hi CelticGerman, thank you for your nice reply .
i already joined the group in Ftdna as I treceived the results.

Trough Geno 2:0 I must have most of the answers if not all inside my result files ...but I can't just read it alone :(

Most of my family comes from both sides from Massa in Toscana , and a possible ancestor in the French part of Switzerland. On my mother line she is an Ursula U5B1

I have no real clue in how to read this Big tree Konther, this is very frustrating ..
Apparently I can't post pics of my own haplogroup screenshot yet

CelticGerman
12-26-2016, 10:40 AM
Hi CelticGerman, thank you for your nice reply .
i already joined the group in Ftdna.

Trough Geno 2:0 I must have most of the answers if not all inside my result files ...but I can't just read it alone :(

Most of my family comes from both sides from Massa in Toscana ,one grandfather from Trieste and a probable ancestor in the French part of Switzerland. On my mother line she is an Ursula U5B1

I have no real clue in how to read this Big tree Konther, this is very frustrating ..

No reason for being frustrated. It needs some time to understand. I'm learning every day too. There are people able to explain better than I do, but if you take the initial R1b SNP all following SNPs represent mutations allowing to create sub-groups (giving regional classification in some cases). Does your purely paternal line (father, grandfather, great-grandfather etc.) came from Massa as well?

Francesco62
12-26-2016, 10:49 AM
No reason for being frustrated. It needs some time to understand. I'm learning every day too. There are people able to explain better than I do, but if you take the initial R1b SNP all following SNPs represent mutations allowing to create sub-groups (giving regional classification in some cases). Does your purely paternal line (father, grandfather, great-grandfather etc.) came from Massa as well?

Hope to be soon ready to read and understand it too :)
After my great -grandfather unfortunately I don't know. But as in Massa there was a longobard stronghold in high middle age ...who knows maybe this explain why we have some sub groups in common :)
But as far as I know Tuscany and norhbern Italy have a very strong Celtic -alpine background

I don't think to have the powers to publish a screenshot of my results ...

CelticGerman
12-26-2016, 11:04 AM
Hope to be soon ready to read and understand it too :)
After my great -grandfather unfortunately I don't know. But as in Massa there was a longobard stronghold in high middle age ...who knows maybe this explain why we have some sub groups in common :)
But as far as I know Tuscany and norhbern Italy have a very strong Celtic -alpine background

I don't think to have the powers to publish a screenshot of my results ...

Most advanced experts should have a look on your SNP-results. Maybe you could send it to my e-mail ([email protected]). I could forward it to a real expert, if you like ....

Francesco62
12-26-2016, 11:18 AM
With Big pleasure and grateful , but just the main haplogroup file or anything else I could get in my Ftdna ?

CelticGerman
12-26-2016, 11:24 AM
With Big pleasure and grateful , but just the main haplogroup file or anything else I could get in my Ftdna ?

If you are on FTDNA you should join the following project (I can't find your file there until now): www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-u152

They will add your file to the corresponding branch. It's concerning only your purely paternal line.

Francesco62
12-26-2016, 12:19 PM
I have joined the project the following day that I proceeded in transferring my files from Genographic to Ftdna but as I haven't received any mail I guess nothing was done as it instead happens on my X side .

I just sent you a mail with the Ftdna final file .

I will never thank you enough dear Co -BY 1106 :)

Solothurn
12-26-2016, 01:26 PM
Hi

I am brianco on Eupedia :) I am glad you managed to register here too!

On here Konther and Monnier also have BY1106

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=425



Hello everyone, I am fully new to DNA analyses and I really know very little of it, even how to read my tests results honestly :(: R1b -U152 > Z36 > ( L671) > A7966 >A7967 > R BY1106.( hope I wrote it properly).

I am of Italian nationality and the known origins of my family in both sides are mainly from Massa in Tuscany, Trieste and I may have a Swiss link in the French speaking canton de Vaud.
As Italy is clearly populated since ages by different ethnicities I am interested to know from really "where " I come from:)

So what is most interesting to me, would be to understand more about the ancient ethnic origins of my forefathers and for this I am already very grateful to Passa and Mitchellsince1893 who posted those maps.
Those data represent now the only things "known" to me at the present moment . I read in Eupedia , from (where a very helpful English participant sent me here ), that Z36 should be the very Celtic branch in the U 152 tree, but that's all I know or ...think to know :)

I made a first DNA test with FTDNA ( Family finder ) don't moths ago and later I purchased a GENO 2:0 making a full transfer of the results to my DNA account 556750.

I could just find in R U152 Group on FTDNA, a man , Samuel Spiker who lived in 1760-1826 ( and his full DNA results seems to be important as paternal ancestor of a Spicer family project ) , as the only one with my same haplogroup R BY 1106 .

I would be grateful and really appreciate to be helped and driven in understanding a bit more of my line and where to look and what to study to learn more .

If I made some involuntary mistakes or breached any rules please forgive me as I am at my very first post and I found a lot of great informations in this site.

I will have no problems of course to share my files with anyone who would be interested in helping me to swim in these charts :)
I guess I have most of the replies in my files but I can't read them :(

Francesco62
12-26-2016, 02:42 PM
Hi

I am brianco on Eupedia :) I am glad you managed to register here too!

On here Konther and Monnier also have BY1106

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=425
You are the first who drove me to find our the R - Z36 family :)last night I could finally "open the doors" and found a really welcoming and friendly Celtic German - Konther :)

Really glad to be closer to my answers and thanks again

vettor
12-26-2016, 05:28 PM
Hope to be soon ready to read and understand it too :)
After my great -grandfather unfortunately I don't know. But as in Massa there was a longobard stronghold in high middle age ...who knows maybe this explain why we have some sub groups in common :)
But as far as I know Tuscany and norhbern Italy have a very strong Celtic -alpine background

I don't think to have the powers to publish a screenshot of my results ...

Since you are Italian, you should read about the House of Malaspina .........who founded the principality of Massa-Carrara in the 15th century , they are of Genoese origin ..........they where joined by the House of D'Este ( Veneto lords , thrown out of Este Veneto by the Venetian republic in the early 15th century ) .
IIRC, the Malaspina and all his followers where forced to leave Genoa by the Great house of Doria who ruled Genoa for many many centuries and decided the Malaspina where a threat to the Genoese Republic.

Francesco62
12-27-2016, 05:27 PM
Since you are Italian, you should read about the House of Malaspina .........who founded the principality of Massa-Carrara in the 15th century , they are of Genoese origin ..........they where joined by the House of D'Este ( Veneto lords , thrown out of Este Veneto by the Venetian republic in the early 15th century ) .
IIRC, the Malaspina and all his followers where forced to leave Genoa by the Great house of Doria who ruled Genoa for many many centuries and decided the Malaspina where a threat to the Genoese Republic.

Hi Vettor, I am not only italian by nationality but generations of my family on both sides come from the very same Massa. Before the Malaspina's principality of Massa in the 15th Century, the family founder, Oberto I Obizzo Obertenghi was already the Longobard Count who made the first fortress in X century. The Malaspina have longobard origins so. It's maybe nice to say that above all on my mother side, till one generation ago, they were given names clearly longobard.
Nice to read an interest for this family from so far :)

vettor
12-27-2016, 05:57 PM
Hi Vettor, I am not only italian by nationality but generations of my family on both sides come from the very same Massa. Before the Malaspina's principality of Massa in the 15th Century, the family founder, Oberto I Obizzo Obertenghi was already the Longobard Count who made the first fortress in X century. The Malaspina have longobard origins so. It's maybe nice to say that above all on my mother side, till one generation ago, they were given names clearly longobard.
Nice to read an interest for this family from so far :)

Since you are northern Italian, then you would know that , one is either a mix of italian with "german" or an italian with "french" .

Where my ancestral generations resided, even today in Veneto, has always had its "germanic" links , even after the ancient period of the Longobards and Goth invasion and settlements of the area came in the medieval times the Swabians , Bavarians, the Salian-Franks and others

Even the word Ghetto, created in Veneto from the original word Geto` ( which comes from the word Getar , meaning "to pour" ) has "germanic" links.
Getar being a venetian word is identical to the Goth word "to pour" .............exactly the same

BTW a Geto` was an island in Venice where cannons where made ( a cannon foundry) from 12th century to 1450 when it was moved to the ship building area the Arsenale to the east . It was never lived on by any people , which is why it was a foundry ..........I think the jews where the first after 1480 expulsion from Spain.

If one goes back far enough , one can even see medieval migration .............like where my Grandmother was born - Merlengo , originally called Merling , due to swabian migrants from town called Marling in Swabia , south west Germany ........................too many to check all of them ...............

Francesco62
12-28-2016, 08:21 AM
Since you are northern Italian, then you would know that , one is either a mix of italian with "german" or an italian with "french" .

Where my ancestral generations resided, even today in Veneto, has always had its "germanic" links , even after the ancient period of the Longobards and Goth invasion and settlements of the area came in the medieval times the Swabians , Bavarians, the Salian-Franks and others

Even the word Ghetto, created in Veneto from the original word Geto` ( which comes from the word Getar , meaning "to pour" ) has "germanic" links.
Getar being a venetian word is identical to the Goth word "to pour" .............exactly the same

BTW a Geto` was an island in Venice where cannons where made ( a cannon foundry) from 12th century to 1450 when it was moved to the ship building area the Arsenale to the east . It was never lived on by any people , which is why it was a foundry ..........I think the jews where the first after 1480 expulsion from Spain.

If one goes back far enough , one can even see medieval migration .............like where my Grandmother was born - Merlengo , originally called Merling , due to swabian migrants from town called Marling in Swabia , south west Germany ........................too many to check all of them ...............

I fully agree and even would go a bit more far in this :

Quoting what prince Metternich wrote not so long time ago in 1847 "The word 'Italy' is a geographical expression, a description which is useful shorthand, but has none of the political significance the efforts of the revolutionary ideologues try to put on it"

By the way I would say that genetically the Norther Italy is mainly tributary of its Celtic and Germanic( or maybe better Teutonic ) origins .
Strabo wrote that the Germans were the "authentic celts" and what the celts used to be.
The very same modern France is constituted by local Celtic tribes( genetically very close teutons ), conquered by superior military , culture, and government rules of romans and then later again militarily by Germanic Franks plus a little Norse presence in the north. We are talking of closely related Germanic- Teutonic people if we look to the first Indo-European migrations who saw them successfully ruling over local preexisting populations. The migrations of high middle age again see the same flow of German tribes coming from north -east in Italian peninsula.

The haplogroups distribution largely confirms the ethnic difference between North and South and who comes from where.

My very same Tuscany area after the Longobard domination ( Tuscany at that time was largely depopulated by pest plague and centuries of war ,) was a land belonging to the Holy Roman Germanic Empire. Even if then we had many short parenthesis of French invasions or local little autonomous principalities, under a more or less important influence of the Pontificial State, Tuscany was happily ruled by the great duchy of Austrian Augsburg dinasty till 1859!

The Italian concept of nation is largely artificial and was imposed relatively recently only by force as for the massive destruction and deconstruction of any local ethnical cultures. This was made in order to impose a common language and a false sense of unitarian identity to what were and often still are different ethnicities and cultures.

I wouldn't stress a lot any real French influence if not for some cultural aspects and strong administrative rules of government introduced by Napoleon times.


http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml

https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germani#/media/File%3AGermanic_tribes_(750BC-1AD).png

The map in this link shows better the common origins
http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesEurope/BarbarianCulturesMap1000BC.htm

Romilius
12-28-2016, 08:58 AM
I fully agree and even would go a bit more far in this :

Quoting what prince Metternich wrote not so long time ago in 1847 "The word 'Italy' is a geographical expression, a description which is useful shorthand, but has none of the political significance the efforts of the revolutionary ideologues try to put on it"

By the way I would say that genetically the Norther Italy is mainly tributary of its Celtic and Germanic( or maybe better Teutonic ) origins .
Strabo wrote that the Germans were the "authentic celts" and what the celts used to be.
The very same modern France is constituted by local Celtic tribes( genetically very close teutons ), conquered by superior military , culture, and government rules of romans and then later again militarily by Germanic Franks plus a little Norse presence in the north. We are talking of closely related Germanic- Teutonic people if we look to the first Indo-European migrations who saw them successfully ruling over local preexisting populations. The migrations of high middle age again see the same flow of German tribes coming from north -east in Italian peninsula.

The haplogroups distribution largely confirms the ethnic difference between North and South and who comes from where.

My very same Tuscany area after the Longobard domination ( Tuscany at that time was largely depopulated by pest plague and centuries of war ,) was a land belonging to the Holy Roman Germanic Empire. Even if then we had many short parenthesis of French invasions or local little autonomous principalities, under a more or less important influence of the Pontificial State, Tuscany was happily ruled by the great duchy of Austrian Augsburg dinasty till 1859!

The Italian concept of nation is largely artificial and was imposed relatively recently only by force as for the massive destruction and deconstruction of any local ethnical cultures. This was made in order to impose a common language and a false sense of unitarian identity to what were and often still are different ethnicities and cultures.

I wouldn't stress a lot any real French influence if not for some cultural aspects and strong administrative rules of government introduced by Napoleon times.



https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germani#/media/File%3AGermanic_tribes_(750BC-1AD).png

The map in this link shows better the common origins
http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesEurope/BarbarianCulturesMap1000BC.htm

I suggest you to add yourself to the FTDNA Alpine DNA project: it is useful to see the direction your ancestors took to come in Italy.

Francesco62
12-28-2016, 09:21 AM
I suggest you to add yourself to the FTDNA Alpine DNA project: it is useful to see the direction your ancestors took to come in Italy.

Hi Romilius, yes you are right and I tried. But as my results are recent we have first to wait that FTDNA U152 leader project make them public and let the private Alpine Group check it first

Frithnanth
12-28-2016, 10:39 AM
The Italian concept of nation is largely artificial and was imposed relatively recently only by force as for the massive destruction and deconstruction of any local ethnical cultures. This was made in order to impose a common language and a false sense of unitarian identity to what were and often still are different ethnicities and cultures.

What about Germany. Wasn't it unified too?

Have you done the autosomal test? It would reveal a possible germanic ancestry that some italians are so "horny" about, that I sincerely don't understand.

Romilius
12-28-2016, 03:00 PM
I fully agree and even would go a bit more far in this :

Quoting what prince Metternich wrote not so long time ago in 1847 "The word 'Italy' is a geographical expression, a description which is useful shorthand, but has none of the political significance the efforts of the revolutionary ideologues try to put on it"

By the way I would say that genetically the Norther Italy is mainly tributary of its Celtic and Germanic( or maybe better Teutonic ) origins .
Strabo wrote that the Germans were the "authentic celts" and what the celts used to be.
The very same modern France is constituted by local Celtic tribes( genetically very close teutons ), conquered by superior military , culture, and government rules of romans and then later again militarily by Germanic Franks plus a little Norse presence in the north. We are talking of closely related Germanic- Teutonic people if we look to the first Indo-European migrations who saw them successfully ruling over local preexisting populations. The migrations of high middle age again see the same flow of German tribes coming from north -east in Italian peninsula.

The haplogroups distribution largely confirms the ethnic difference between North and South and who comes from where.

My very same Tuscany area after the Longobard domination ( Tuscany at that time was largely depopulated by pest plague and centuries of war ,) was a land belonging to the Holy Roman Germanic Empire. Even if then we had many short parenthesis of French invasions or local little autonomous principalities, under a more or less important influence of the Pontificial State, Tuscany was happily ruled by the great duchy of Austrian Augsburg dinasty till 1859!

The Italian concept of nation is largely artificial and was imposed relatively recently only by force as for the massive destruction and deconstruction of any local ethnical cultures. This was made in order to impose a common language and a false sense of unitarian identity to what were and often still are different ethnicities and cultures.

I wouldn't stress a lot any real French influence if not for some cultural aspects and strong administrative rules of government introduced by Napoleon times.


http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml

https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germani#/media/File%3AGermanic_tribes_(750BC-1AD).png

The map in this link shows better the common origins
http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesEurope/BarbarianCulturesMap1000BC.htm

Yes and no... Italy is really a geographical notion, but in 1848, in the Lombard-Venetian Kingdom, the western part (i.e. Lombardy) was involved in a revolt against the Austrian empire. For example, the glorious K.K. 23 Ceccopieri wore the three-colours pin of Italy and marched under the command of the major Skodnik in order to free Milan from Austrians. Only few people, like the highest ranks of the regiment and some very fearful people decided to desert or not to march against Austrians. Obviously, the soldiers of the Ceccopieri Legion (the name Skodnik gave to the new philo-italian regiment) were more linked to their officiers than to the Emperor himself: Italy as nation existed only in the minds of few intellectuals and very rich aristocrats.

The funny thing is that if a Inhaber changed his flag, he wouldn't be considered a traitor (like the count Ceccopieri, who passed from the French flag to the Austrian one when Eugene de Beauhornais was forced to surrender and to put an end to the French rule over Lombardy and Veneto)... but some farmers, smiths, builders, etc..., on the contrary, yes.

Romilius
12-28-2016, 03:03 PM
Hope it's useful for those interested into this sub-clade.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10471&stc=1

It would be useful to put a note about the percentages: if they are upon the total R1b in an area, or if they are upon the total population in an area.

Francesco62
12-28-2016, 10:27 PM
Yes and no... Italy is really a geographical notion, but in 1848, in the Lombard-Venetian Kingdom, the western part (i.e. Lombardy) was involved in a revolt against the Austrian empire. For example, the glorious K.K. 23 Ceccopieri wore the three-colours pin of Italy and marched under the command of the major Skodnik in order to free Milan from Austrians. Only few people, like the highest ranks of the regiment and some very fearful people decided to desert or not to march against Austrians. Obviously, the soldiers of the Ceccopieri Legion (the name Skodnik gave to the new philo-italian regiment) were more linked to their officiers than to the Emperor himself: Italy as nation existed only in the minds of few intellectuals and very rich aristocrats.

The funny thing is that if a Inhaber changed his flag, he wouldn't be considered a traitor (like the count Ceccopieri, who passed from the French flag to the Austrian one when Eugene de Beauhornais was forced to surrender and to put an end to the French rule over Lombardy and Veneto)... but some farmers, smiths, builders, etc..., on the contrary, yes.

You got exactly the right point: nationalisms started as an intellectual and aristocratic game . So is normal that most of the troups or the farmers were following their local nobles ( officers and often intellectuals too ); pity than then aristocracy always was showing a big FairPlay among their members, what stopped immediately as aristocrats had to punish the real folk .

Th Austrian empire representatives were far to be exempt of bad behavior toward the Italian population. It's only too late that they found out that "old times" were often better . And its thanks to chauvinistic nationalisms of the IX century that the elites enriched themselves in brotherly world wars less than 100 years later.

But now it's easier to understand it. Nevertheless this etnical and cultural difference, even after so many years of unitarian national indoctrination is still palpable now.

Francesco62
12-28-2016, 10:41 PM
What about Germany. Wasn't it unified too?

Have you done the autosomal test? It would reveal a possible germanic ancestry that some italians are so "horny" about, that I sincerely don't understand.

There is nothing to be "horny" about in this matter, its just a question of specific ethnic culture of your family and consciousness of your roots. About this you can be proud.

The phisical difference is also immediately noticeable. Don't you know that Italian POWs after WWII were separated by their aspect and geographical origins ? :) and this is still valid even now in U.K. It seems ...as odd as it seems and not politically correct .

Frithnanth
12-29-2016, 12:29 PM
Yeah, I got your point about the ethnic diversity of Italy. On the other hand, I don't know why to inflate the germanic ancestry, even though the romans, etruscans, ligurians and italic tribes contribuited more to the modern italian genepool. There are lots of north italians who think they are austrians.

http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml

The same thing could also be applied to some iberians who think they are Goths, Suebi, Vandals, and forget about the moors.

Anyway, thank you for the explanation. :thumb:

Francesco62
12-29-2016, 06:41 PM
Yeah, I got your point about the ethnic diversity of Italy. On the other hand, I don't know why to inflate the germanic ancestry, even though the romans, etruscans, ligurians and italic tribes contribuited more to the modern italian genepool. There are lots of north italians who think they are austrians.

http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml

The same thing could also be applied to some iberians who think they are Goths, Suebi, Vandals, and forget about the moors.

Anyway, thank you for the explanation. :thumb:




It's clear that most Italian people nowadays don't even known from where they come from and they just feel to be naturally Italians.
Still is existing -mainly in countryside- a sort of feeling of a deep difference between North and South. They used to speak a different language and even eat or dress dress in a full different way.

This was true at my grandfather times but now younger generations have mostly lost the sense of traditions and have been growing in a more uniformed modern way , this thanks also to a national TV and more years spent in public schools.
Useless to say that the school programs underline the low impact of Germani or Celtic migrations and push for a different national story.

By the way between pre Indo European Ligurians populations and indo European Celtics there was almost no difference as they naturally merged centuries before Current Era.

The very same romans were also indo-europeans and probably were coming from the same area but in different waves and for a different route .
The fact that they absorbed part of thr Etruscan culture didn't avoid them to be later ethnically cleansed as it is shown in the very same haplogroups map of Tuscany DNA.

It's not easy indeed and I bet that I am far to be the only northern Italian that stepped in Dna testing to check if my subconscious has some real grounds.

About the people who feel to be Austrian in the north, if you are referring to Alto Adige or Sud Tyrol as they call themselves ...they speak only German , eat and think as Austrians :) they are really Italians only by passport in most cases and they also got a special regional status with a very large autonomy.
Their parents were in the opposite side in WWI and often volunteered in German army in WWII against Italians when the Italian government and the king betrayed their allies.
But how to blame them , it was the call of their blood, no matter or impact could have their passport against this.

About the impact of moors in Spain , msnybof my compatriots in South Italy , even if at a lesser extent , clearly show this in the origin of their Greek, Phoenician, Turk and northern Africans haplogroups.

Romilius
02-23-2017, 09:46 AM
It's clear that most Italian people nowadays don't even known from where they come from and they just feel to be naturally Italians.
Still is existing -mainly in countryside- a sort of feeling of a deep difference between North and South. They used to speak a different language and even eat or dress dress in a full different way.

This was true at my grandfather times but now younger generations have mostly lost the sense of traditions and have been growing in a more uniformed modern way , this thanks also to a national TV and more years spent in public schools.
Useless to say that the school programs underline the low impact of Germani or Celtic migrations and push for a different national story.

By the way between pre Indo European Ligurians populations and indo European Celtics there was almost no difference as they naturally merged centuries before Current Era.

The very same romans were also indo-europeans and probably were coming from the same area but in different waves and for a different route .
The fact that they absorbed part of thr Etruscan culture didn't avoid them to be later ethnically cleansed as it is shown in the very same haplogroups map of Tuscany DNA.

It's not easy indeed and I bet that I am far to be the only northern Italian that stepped in Dna testing to check if my subconscious has some real grounds.

About the people who feel to be Austrian in the north, if you are referring to Alto Adige or Sud Tyrol as they call themselves ...they speak only German , eat and think as Austrians :) they are really Italians only by passport in most cases and they also got a special regional status with a very large autonomy.
Their parents were in the opposite side in WWI and often volunteered in German army in WWII against Italians when the Italian government and the king betrayed their allies.
But how to blame them , it was the call of their blood, no matter or impact could have their passport against this.

About the impact of moors in Spain , msnybof my compatriots in South Italy , even if at a lesser extent , clearly show this in the origin of their Greek, Phoenician, Turk and northern Africans haplogroups.

I have to say that lately I'm even more conviced that Z36 could also have come with germanic tribes... That shade in Campania takes the territory surrounding Benevento, seat of a Longobard Duchy. Also the territory of Lucca was well inhabited by Longobards and is still a region with a high percentage of R1b, not sure if the majority is Z36... I think it would be.

By the way... Francesco62, are you the founder of the blog Bighipert about the history of Toscana?

pasquale
02-24-2017, 04:32 PM
Yes, like, now.
Every time I visit the site, I leave with more questions than answers. FTDNA lists me as L2, Italo-Celtic. My ancestors are from Benevento. I have a theory how we came to southern Italy, the Punic Wars and the Longobards. Reading the history of these events, I found the Celts in Northern Italy joined with Hannibal and the Longobards. I guess a few stayed in the sunny south.
I test negative for Z36 . The following are my positives with very few available tests
L2+,
L23+,
L278+,
L389+,
L51+,
M269+,
M343+,
P297+,
P310+,
P311+,
P312+,
U152+,
This is what FTDNA shows as available
CTS5153
F3916
CTS667
CTS1166
F4205
PF4367
F1643

vettor
02-24-2017, 04:54 PM
Every time I visit the site, I leave with more questions than answers. FTDNA lists me as L2, Italo-Celtic. My ancestors are from Benevento. I have a theory how we came to southern Italy, the Punic Wars and the Longobards. Reading the history of these events, I found the Celts in Northern Italy joined with Hannibal and the Longobards. I guess a few stayed in the sunny south.
I test negative for Z36 . The following are my positives with very few available tests
L2+,
L23+,
L278+,
L389+,
L51+,
M269+,
M343+,
P297+,
P310+,
P311+,
P312+,
U152+,
This is what FTDNA shows as available
CTS5153
F3916
CTS667
CTS1166
F4205
PF4367
F1643

There where no Longobards in Italy when Hannibal was around, they where gallic-celts ...............and even ostrogoths ( centuries after hannibal ) settled there ( benevento )before the longobards

Founded as Maleventum, one of the major settlements of the Samnites, Benevento remained under Roman control as Beneventum from about 274 BC.

Camulogčne Rix
02-24-2017, 09:05 PM
It's clear that most Italian people nowadays don't even known from where they come from and they just feel to be naturally Italians.
Still is existing -mainly in countryside- a sort of feeling of a deep difference between North and South. They used to speak a different language and even eat or dress dress in a full different way.
About the impact of moors in Spain , msnybof my compatriots in South Italy , even if at a lesser extent , clearly show this in the origin of their Greek, Phoenician, Turk and northern Africans haplogroups.
Don't imagine that the Italian admixture was only fixed by the late Antiquity invaders (Greeks, Phoenicians...) , it is far more ancestral:
Italian_Abruzzo:average:
Tepecik-Ciftlik_Neolithic:average 41.8
LBK_EN:average 35.1
Yamnaya 23.1
Loschbour:Loschbour 0.0

Larth
06-17-2017, 09:51 PM
The Z36 and L2 maps on this forum do not agree with Bertoncini's Apuani study as Bertoncini suggests that L2 is relatively rare in NW Tuscany.

Boattini's study on the other hand seems to show a heavy L2 presence in the La Spezia/Massa provinces, old ancient "Apuani" country, which straddles the Tuscany/Liguria border.

Can anybody explain this dichotomy?

Z36 may have arrived with a first migratory wave of the proto-Celtic population from the Alps (La Tene in Switzerland) into north Italy, giving rise to Scamozzina culture (14th and 13th century BC) and the Canegrate culture (13th century BC), and then to the subsequent Golasecca culture (in this sense, a good read is Raffaele C. De Marinis, La civiltą di Golasecca: i pił antichi Celti d'Italia). Within the Golasecca culture there is the melting of Celts with ancient Ligurians, and Golasecca acting as intermediary in the trade between Hallstatt and the Etruscans, expands territorially to southern Liguria and northern Tuscany. Probably a last wave of Z36 came with Gallic invaders who settled the Po Valley in the 4th century BC.

L2 may have arrived with earlier Bell Beaker and later Hallstatt migrations.

L2 map in Italy

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7892-Distribution-map-of-Y-DNA-R-L2-in-Italy


I have to say that lately I'm even more conviced that Z36 could also have come with germanic tribes... That shade in Campania takes the territory surrounding Benevento, seat of a Longobard Duchy. Also the territory of Lucca was well inhabited by Longobards and is still a region with a high percentage of R1b, not sure if the majority is Z36... I think it would be.

The whole Tuscany was inhabited by Longobards, while the distribution of Z36 in Tuscany seems more compatible with a Golaseccan-Celtic expansion.

pasquale
06-18-2017, 06:13 AM
I should have made my remarks clearer. Hannibal was in Italy 700 years before the Longobards invaded Italy. The Celts were not friends with the Romans. I have read the Celts (Gauls) guided Hannibal and his elephants over the Alps. Celts joined with Hannibal and Benevento is part of Hannibal's Italian incursions. The Celts probably joined with the Longobards. Both armies were in the Benevento and Salerno areas at different times. Reading an earlier post to this site, "This one overlap better with Celt and Lepontic area, the presence in inner Campania has to do with the deportation of Celto-Ligures in the Roman times, around Beneventum." posted by Morges
Benevento was under the control of the Longobards from around 600 to 1050.