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View Full Version : Distribution map of Y-DNA R-L2 in Italy



Passa
07-16-2016, 07:42 PM
Here it is.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10492&stc=1

Celt_??
07-16-2016, 09:09 PM
Deleted

MitchellSince1893
07-16-2016, 09:25 PM
As I often like to point out, it's appealing to gravitate toward simple ideas but reality is often more complex.

Having said that it's tempting to associate L2 with a Hallstatt era incursion into Italy via Austria as Hallstatt is in Austria; and Z36 with a La Tene era incursion as La Tene is in Switzerland....

http://oaks.nvg.org/d/eurocelt.jpg

http://www.polatkaya.net/HALLSTATT_CULTURE_map.jpg

https://rokus01.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/la-tene-warrior-fringe-and-negau.jpg

But as this is too simple an explanation, I won't propose it :D

Tomenable
07-16-2016, 09:39 PM
So L2 looks more Celtic than Italic ???

Which subclade(s) of R1b could be linked with Italics and, especially, Latins ???

MitchellSince1893
07-16-2016, 09:51 PM
So L2 looks more Celtic than Italic ???

Which subclade(s) of R1b could be linked with Italics and, especially, Latins ???

IMO Z56
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7887-Distribution-map-of-Y-DNA-R-Z56-in-Italy

Kwheaton
07-16-2016, 11:22 PM
Mitchell
Thanks for posting these. Given what we are seeing in L2>FGC22501 I would definitely tend to agree that L2 may have its origins North of Italy and maybe even much farther north than previously expected. Those La Tene circles on the third map coincide with the areas of FGC22501.

Yep it is complicated....What we need is more sequencing of ancient skeletons in Germany and France to open up the possibilities...

Celt_??
07-17-2016, 02:42 AM
Deleted

Kwheaton
07-17-2016, 03:23 AM
In the case of FGC22501 you may want to scroll down on this page to where I have plotted origins of some of our testers.
https://sites.google.com/site/wheatonsurname/beginners-guide-to-genetic-genealogy/lesson-18-exploring-the-y-haplotree-with-a-real-life-example

It is the belief of my Co-Administrator who is more well versed in the more recent connections that the stronghold would be in the Meuse region of France. There seems to be a cluster in the Macon area of France and then as plotted on the maps along the Rhine regions. There is at least one who migrated with the Transylvania Saxons to Romania and then there are those Like the 6DRIFF22 Roman era skeleton who was in York. It is likely that we have FGC22501 in England that migrated during different time frames including Pre-Roman, Roman, Saxon, Norman and Flemish migrations.

The most recent concentration in mainland Europe points to areas in Flanders, especially strong in the Mosele and Libčllč districts and as mentioned earlier along the Rhine river of Germany.

To give you some idea of the Diaspora our members include residents (with ancestry) from the following countries England, Belgium, Germany, Netherlands, Sweden and Romania.

MitchellSince1893
07-17-2016, 03:46 AM
My thought is that L2 and is very widespread throughout Europe, and along with its subclades e.g. L20 spent a lot of time growing in numbers North of the Alps with intermixed subclade waves/groups periodically going into Britain and other locals.

Some L2 and Z36 may have arrived with Bell Beaker, but I think the majority of U152 arrived in the late Bronze and Iron Age (e.g. Hallstatt, La Tene, Belgae) as it appears to be most concentrated in the North Sea coastal areas especially East Anglia and Essex; and there is much smaller U152 percentages in Wales, Ireland, and Northwest Scotland.

My impression is that the L21 folks arrived during Bell Beaker and were well established in the British Isles when U152 started arriving in numbers, limiting the ability of U152 arrivals from being widespread across the Isles. In other words if U152 had arrived at the same time as L21 then we might expect to see a similar widespread distribution.

The one exception is in the sparsely populated North of England/Scottish borders where I think Roman auxillary forces from Gaul and the Low Countries may be a significant contributor to the U152 hotspot seen there in the present day.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e7/67/b2/e767b2360cdb604493ba3f96fbf4afa4.png
Later arrivals including Dutch, Flemmings, and Huguenots also contributed to U152 in Britain

Just my two cents

wombatofthenorth
07-27-2016, 10:34 PM
What do people think the huge U152 pocket in the Urals turned into? Is there any wild chance L2 and L20 could have started way out there? The U152 heat maps show the greatest U152 density of all in the Urals. Then again everyone talks about L2 in the Alps so I guess the Urals is probably not likely.

MitchellSince1893
08-25-2016, 06:58 PM
What do people think the huge U152 pocket in the Urals turned into? Is there any wild chance L2 and L20 could have started way out there? The U152 heat maps show the greatest U152 density of all in the Urals. Then again everyone talks about L2 in the Alps so I guess the Urals is probably not likely.

I believe this post by Richard Rocca relates to your question http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1008-R1b-in-the-Caucasus-(other-than-Armenia)-is-nearly-all-in-the-north-in-Russia&p=181804&viewfull=1#post181804