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TigerMW
04-16-2013, 05:18 PM
I just opened this up for anyone who is R1b1 or R1b1a2 predicted or has some kind of R1b SNP positive result but aren't sure where they fit or what subclade they are in.

Ask away, but please be sure to join the right R1b haplogroup projects according to your SNP tests. If you have no Y SNP results the right project is the R1b and Subclades "Gateway" project at
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/default.aspx

TigerMW
04-16-2013, 05:37 PM
rms2,
Sorry to get specific here, but if possible, could you look at both of these and let me know if you believe either would be interesting for further SNP testing, please?
130937
140532
I apologize again because after a death in the family, I've really just not paid much attention to them.
Thank you.
p.s. Please feel free to delete or move this if I've placed it in the improper thread.

I have your two haplotypes in the R1b-L21_Haplotypes file and they are L21+. I try to assign people to speculative STR signature based varieties (deep ancestral clusters) to help with SNP testing guidance. It is important to find your terminal (youngest) SNP to make sure you know what branch of the Y DNA family tree you are on.

As far as 130937, I have you assigned to variety 1528. Here are your closest GDs (Genetic Distance) at 67 STRs in the L21 file. f153101 Mattsson(Koskinen) is only a GD=2 so he is very important. The others are GD=9.

f130937 Brandstrom(Teuva) R1b-P312>L21 L21+ 3c1g 1528
f153101 Mattsson(Koskinen) R1b-P312>L21>DF13 DF13+ DF41- L96- L144- 1528
f112777 Carroll zzL21suspect 21-2225-EC
f115408 Dooley R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21 DF21+ 21-2225-EC
f208276 MacKall R1b-P312>L21 L21+ L144- zzL21unassigned
f172278 Pry R1b-P312>L21 L21+ L144- 253-1716-P
f107898 Purcell zzL21suspect 21-2225-EC
f23350 Springer R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21 DF21+ 21-2225-EC

Odds are excellent f130937 Brandstrom(Teuva) is DF13+ so that would the logical next step on the Advanced Orders menu at FTDNA. You might be either DF21+ or Z253+ too which makes you DF13+ by default. The safest (but not cheapest) action is to test do a Geno 2.0 test and transfer the results over to your FTDNA account. That test pretty much covers the waterfront.

As far as 140532 The below are all GDs up to 7 at 67 markers for you. I've got you assigned to variety 4466-T2-C. Some people call that Irish II/South.

f140532 Roddy R1b-P312>L21 L21+ 3c1g 4466-T2-C
f49438 Robertson zzL21suspect 4466-T2-C
f11112 McCarter zzL21suspect 4466-T2-C
f74069 Thompson zzL21suspect 4466-T2-C
f79806 Heffernan zzL21suspect 4466-T2-C
f254744 Laverty R1b-P312>L21 L21+ 4466-T2-C
f106549 Stalker zzL21suspect 4466-T2-C
f112957 Thompson zzL21suspect 4466-T2-C
f118168 Thompson zzL21suspect 4466-T2-C
f18569 White R1b-P312>L21 L21+ 4466-T2-C
f29165 Canady zzL21suspect 4466-T2-C
f184724 Dunphy zzL21suspect 4466-T2
f88489 Heffernan R1b-P312>L21>DF13>CTS4466+ CTS4466+ CTS5714+ 4466-T2-C
f116039 Robertson zzL21suspect 4466-T2-C
f127014 Thompson zzL21suspect 4466-T2-C
f207493 Weir zzL21suspect 4466-T2-C
f121498 zzzUnk(adopted) zzL21suspect 4466-T2-C


I think there is a very good chance f140532 Roddy is CTS4466+ so that is highly recommended. There are several SNPs that are found in 4466-T2 type people so far. They are CTS4466, CTS5714, CTS3974, CTS8358. We don't know how these markers subdivided (or not) this group so all are good testing candidates, in my opinion.

ilmari
04-16-2013, 11:01 PM
Thank you, Mikewww! :biggrin1:

ths
06-06-2013, 05:11 AM
Hello,
I had a 37-Marker yDNA test done last year at FTDNA and the I was predicted R1b1a2 R-M269. In almost a year, I've only had a couple of 25 for 25 exact matches, a couple of 2 - step 37 matches and quite a few 3 -step. I've been waiting to do further testing in the hopes that I would get some better 37-marker matches. I only have my most distant known ancestor born in 1834, in England, probably London. Do you still recommend upgrading to 67 marker YSTRs, or in my case would the Geno 2.0 be better. It seems that FTDNA is recommending Geno 2.0 as the next step. Thanks!

Wing Genealogist
06-06-2013, 09:27 AM
Hello,
I had a 37-Marker yDNA test done last year at FTDNA and the I was predicted R1b1a2 R-M269. In almost a year, I've only had a couple of 25 for 25 exact matches, a couple of 2 - step 37 matches and quite a few 3 -step. I've been waiting to do further testing in the hopes that I would get some better 37-marker matches. I only have my most distant known ancestor born in 1834, in England, probably London. Do you still recommend upgrading to 67 marker YSTRs, or in my case would the Geno 2.0 be better. It seems that FTDNA is recommending Geno 2.0 as the next step. Thanks!

As long as you recognize its limitations, you cannot really go wrong with the Geno 2.0 test. While some important SNPs (such as P-312 and L48) failed on the chip, it does test an impressive number of Y-SNPs. In addition, you get a decent haplogroup assignment for your mtDNA (although it only tests selective SNPs on the mtDNA, so the results are not really comparable to other mtDNA tests). You also get a fair autosomal DNA test (althought other tests such as 23andMe and FTDNA's Family Finder do a better job with this aspect).

Aidan Kelly
07-03-2013, 01:49 PM
Helping a Kelly who has a basic M269 R1b1a2 SNP confirmed, we went for L21 but it was L21-

The 67 STR scores are: (184041) 14 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 17 18 11 11 19 23 15 15 18 17 32 35 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23 23 15 10 12 12 15 8 11 23 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

Has some one a haplo-predictor handy, it looks like a U106 or a P312 but perhaps there is a better handle and a predictor can guide me to a deeper SNP test?

regards

Aidan

Wing Genealogist
07-03-2013, 03:08 PM
The low CDY=32-35 (as well as the high 390=25) would make it VERY unusual for it to fall under U106 (which is my expertise).

rms2
07-03-2013, 03:20 PM
The 492=12 also makes it very unlikely to be U106+. Since this haplotype is L21-, and probably U106-, it is likely to be some other type of P312+. In Ireland, after L21, the next most frequent P312+ haplogroup is probably DF27. He could try testing for DF27. Of course, I have not tried to run this haplotype in any way.

It might be best to test for P312 first, however, then go from there.

Does he have a Ysearch ID that could be shared? Does he have any matches who have tested positive for any SNP's?

dartraighe
07-03-2013, 04:42 PM
If you google R-L21 SNP Predictor it will take you to the website.You may be DF27+.

TigerMW
07-03-2013, 10:52 PM
Helping a Kelly who has a basic M269 R1b1a2 SNP confirmed, we went for L21 but it was L21-

The 67 STR scores are: (184041) 14 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 17 18 11 11 19 23 15 15 18 17 32 35 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23 23 15 10 12 12 15 8 11 23 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

Has some one a haplo-predictor handy, it looks like a U106 or a P312 but perhaps there is a better handle and a predictor can guide me to a deeper SNP test?

regards

Aidan

Aidan, in the R1b Gateway project there is a 67STR compare spreadsheet that lets you copy a haplotype line from an FTDNA public project screen and then compare GD's with everyone that's SNP tested and at 67 STRs in the R1b, P312, U106, U152, L21, ht36 and R1b1* projects. Hopefully, there will be a striking pattern of off-modals combined with low GD's that will give SNP guidance.

The default or fall-back answer is do the National Geno 2.0 test and get good coverage and at a medium price and get some mt and autosomal SNPs thrown in. Here's the R1b gateway project: http://tinyurl.com/R1b-Project

TigerMW
07-03-2013, 10:53 PM
The low CDY=32-35 (as well as the high 390=25) would make it VERY unusual for it to fall under U106 (which is my expertise).
See my reply to Aidan. R1b has so many variations at these markers we need to look at the whole haplotype.. and hopefully it is 67 STRs.

GoldenHind
07-04-2013, 12:06 AM
Aidan, in the R1b Gateway project there is a 67STR compare spreadsheet that lets you copy a haplotype line from an FTDNA public project screen and then compare GD's with everyone that's SNP tested and at 67 STRs in the R1b, P312, U106, U152, L21, ht36 and R1b1* projects. Hopefully, there will be a striking pattern of off-modals combined with low GD's that will give SNP guidance.

The default or fall-back answer is do the National Geno 2.0 test and get good coverage and at a medium price and get some mt and autosomal SNPs thrown in. Here's the R1b gateway project: http://tinyurl.com/R1b-Project

How does one go about using the 67STR compare spreadsheet?

ilmari
11-01-2013, 03:50 AM
W.A.M.H. Finnish 1700 A.D. DF13+

What's next?

Kit # 130937

Autosomally showing as:

87.9% Finnish
7.2% Nonspecific Northern European
1.7% Eastern European
3.2% Nonspecific European

ilmari
11-02-2013, 07:26 AM
W.A.M.H. Finnish 1700 A.D. DF13+

What's next?

Kit # 130937

Autosomally showing as:

87.9% Finnish
7.2% Nonspecific Northern European
1.7% Eastern European
3.2% Nonspecific European

Anybody want to chime in with advice for what to order next?

Asked and answered elsewhere.

Invisible Sun
11-03-2013, 05:24 PM
Hallo,
it seems I could finally find some kind of help in this thread.
Last December I took 23andme test, they classify my Yhp as R1, and looking at their tree mapper here is what I read:

R M173+ M343No Call P25NC M297- M335- M18- M269- S3- M73- L23NC L49+ L51- L11- S21- S116NC U152- L21- and all the others negative.

after a couple of chats with Adriano Squecco and Dr Krahn (before the summer) I decided to took the FTDNA 12 markers test, expecting P25, V88 or something else not included in 23andme list. Y hap bone test confirmed M269! Given the negative response of 23andme I asked to FTDNA customer care service to double check, and they kindly replied "I heard back from the lab earlier today and they confirmed that it was a clear read on the M269 result and that it was positive."
Here is my 12STR haplotype (I know it's not enough for a solid prediction)

13 24 15 10 12-15 12 13 12 14 13 30

I threw it in Cullen predictor and it gives some P312 subclades, I have a -1 match on FTDNA projects who is a P312 too. I read Geno 2.0 doesn't test this one and D27, so I would think it is better to wait until some other clades are included in the analysis. In the meanwhile I decided to take P310 test at FTDNA and I'm waiting for the results, thinking that a M269+ L49+ and P310- could lead to a L51+ especially for the DYS 393=13. But Rathna says sometimes FTDNA assigns M269 wrongly, so I must suppose I still could be anything from P25 downward, and due to this situation I wouldn't know which project I could join.
My autosomal analysis doesn't help, it has everything from North Sea to Middle East, and I don't know very much about my paternal line, except that it appeared in Palermo City btw the 16th and 18th centuries. The surname is rare in the city (I would like to keep it private) and with uncertain origin, I think some NPE could be involved too (adoption maybe).

Thanks in advance to anyone giving his/her precious opinion :)

R.Rocca
11-03-2013, 06:38 PM
Hallo,
it seems I could finally find some kind of help in this thread.
Last December I took 23andme test, they classify my Yhp as R1, and looking at their tree mapper here is what I read:

R M173+ M343No Call P25NC M297- M335- M18- M269- S3- M73- L23NC L49+ L51- L11- S21- S116NC U152- L21- and all the others negative.

after a couple of chats with Adriano Squecco and Dr Krahn (before the summer) I decided to took the FTDNA 12 markers test, expecting P25, V88 or something else not included in 23andme list. Y hap bone test confirmed M269! Given the negative response of 23andme I asked to FTDNA customer care service to double check, and they kindly replied "I heard back from the lab earlier today and they confirmed that it was a clear read on the M269 result and that it was positive."
Here is my 12STR haplotype (I know it's not enough for a solid prediction)

13 24 15 10 12-15 12 13 12 14 13 30

I threw it in Cullen predictor and it gives some P312 subclades, I have a -1 match on FTDNA projects who is a P312 too. I read Geno 2.0 doesn't test this one and D27, so I would think it is better to wait until some other clades are included in the analysis. In the meanwhile I decided to take P310 test at FTDNA and I'm waiting for the results, thinking that a M269+ L49+ and P310- could lead to a L51+ especially for the DYS 393=13. But Rathna says sometimes FTDNA assigns M269 wrongly, so I must suppose I still could be anything from P25 downward, and due to this situation I wouldn't know which project I could join.
My autosomal analysis doesn't help, it has everything from North Sea to Middle East, and I don't know very much about my paternal line, except that it appeared in Palermo City btw the 16th and 18th centuries. The surname is rare in the city (I would like to keep it private) and with uncertain origin, I think some NPE could be involved too (adoption maybe).

Thanks in advance to anyone giving his/her precious opinion :)


@Invisible Sun, welcome to the forum. The problem with 23andMe is that the quality of the reads is so poor that it has a lot of no calls that makes the tree classification difficult. Do you know if that was the case with your kit based on looking at your raw data file?

Rathna
11-03-2013, 08:20 PM
But Rathna says sometimes FTDNA assigns M269 wrongly

In this case also 23andMe says you are L49+, then at least you are R-L23 (then a subclade of M269, which is rightly positive in this case) but probably some subclades which isn't those tested negative. Good is the test for P312 and subclades. On SMGF you find a close match on 12 markers (with DYS385a=11) in Rìos (Mexico) and other close matches is Iberians, then it is likely that also your origins are linked with Spain.

Invisible Sun
11-03-2013, 11:34 PM
@Invisible Sun, welcome to the forum. The problem with 23andMe is that the quality of the reads is so poor that it has a lot of no calls that makes the tree classification difficult. Do you know if that was the case with your kit based on looking at your raw data file?

Thank you for your welcome and reply. I was totally disappointed by 23andme service. In my case I had the impression that the results were a bit superficial, maybe due to the fact that I ordered that kit when they drop the price to 99$ and their lab was submerged by datas. I think the Ancestry Composition is not totally consistant with Ancestry Finder, too much unspecific dna even on speculative mode, and when I asked twice how they explain M269- and L49+ they reply that
"Currently, 23andMe does not assign the haplogroup R1b1a2* (M269+). However, R1b1a2* is very similar to your FTDNA assignment as both begin with R1, meaning that they share the same parent haplogroup. This means that up to this point, 23andMe and FTDNA identified the same defining mutations on your Y chromosome."
Not exactly an exhaustive answer IMHO...Let's see how my P310 will turn out.
Regarding my Y chr raw data file yes, it was full of no calls when I sent it to Mr Squecco.

I rely quite much on Gedmatch resources, whether my results are affected by a calculator effect or not, when Dodecad, Eurogenes and MDLP results give the same admixture I think that there is a track to follow.



@Rathna: thanks for your hints, even if I autosomally come out as Sicilian + sth residual from the Atlantic facade, both Eurogenes K36 and 23andme AC do not detect any particular Iberian heritage. Anyway, given how irregularly ADNA recombines you could be right: what is read today can be different from what was real 3 centuries ago =)
on Ysearch I found Iberian, Irish, British and West Asian matches, let's hope to shed some light...
In any case you seem to suggest me that L49+ and FTDNA backbone test results can be considered both reliable, right? So a true M269+, considering also the haplotype?

Rathna
11-04-2013, 03:09 AM
@Rathna: thanks for your hints, even if I autosomally come out as Sicilian + sth residual from the Atlantic facade, both Eurogenes K36 and 23andme AC do not detect any particular Iberian heritage. Anyway, given how irregularly ADNA recombines you could be right: what is read today can be different from what was real 3 centuries ago =)
on Ysearch I found Iberian, Irish, British and West Asian matches, let's hope to shed some light...
In any case you seem to suggest me that L49+ and FTDNA backbone test results can be considered both reliable, right? So a true M269+, considering also the haplotype?

I am the theorist of the "Italian Refugium" and pretty all are thinking to me like a nationalist, thus it should be not in line with my theories to suggest a foreign origin to your haplotype, but I look at the data in spite of what the others think about me, and it seemed to me that your haplotype found its closest matches in the Iberian R-P312, we know it is the most diffused there, even though my theory is that also it came from Italy.
I believed that the other markers values of Rìos were for instance DYS437 and DYS448=14-18, but I saw that they were 15-19. Unfortunately the researches on SMGF are very limited now and I couldn't follow my research. I'll look at Ysearch, but at this point a SNP test of yours or an upgrade of your STRs values would need.
23andMe has been very reliable for me and for all my relatives I tested, also for L23 and L49. I am R-Z2105+ and L277- and L584-.
I'll look at your data on the "Adriano Squecco spreadsheet".

P.S. You aren't R-L51 because you have DYS426=12 and not 13. You have 13 in DYS388, and this differentiates you from the closest British ones (actually ancient Celts) and links you to the Spaniards I found on SMGF, and DYS388 is a very slow mutating marker, more than DYS385a.

Yggdrasil
11-05-2013, 12:14 PM
So I ordered geno2 for my R1b kit (grandfather). I have 67 markers and a positive P312, but that is all I know as of yet. I feel a bit uncertain that I made a good choice about geno2. Perhaps I could better use the test for another family member?

Ysearch ID is APGCD. I am presently in the FTDNA P312 project where my kit remains ungrouped. Any thougts regarding the markers are welcome!

Rathna
11-05-2013, 01:02 PM
So I ordered geno2 for my R1b kit (grandfather). I have 67 markers and a positive P312, but that is all I know as of yet. I feel a bit uncertain that I made a good choice about geno2. Perhaps I could better use the test for another family member?

Ysearch ID is APGCD. I am presently in the FTDNA P312 project where my kit remains ungrouped. Any thougts regarding the markers are welcome!

You can see that all these people belong to your same cluster:
APGCD Lønning West coast, Norway
13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 14 13 13 28 17 9 10 11 11 26 15 20 29 15 16 16 17 11 11 18 23 16 15 18 18 35 40 11 12 12 12 15 11 9 16 16 8 10 10 8 9 10 23 23 16 11 12 12 14 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
8694C Spencer Unknown
13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 13 28 17 9 10 11 11 26 15 20 29 15 16 16 17 11 11 18 23 16 15 18 18 35 40 12 12 12 12 15 11 9 16 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 23 23 15 11 12 12 14 8 23 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
8ATH9 Holmes England
13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 13 28 18 9 10 11 11 26 15 20 29 15 15 16 17 11 11 18 23 16 15 18 17 35 40 12 12 12 12 14 11 9 16 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 23 23 16 11 12 12 14 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
8HZ9E Krajewski Margonin, Poland
13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 13 28 17 9 10 11 11 26 15 20 29 15 16 16 16 11 11 18 23 16 15 18 19 35 40 12 12 12 12 15 11 9 16 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 23 23 16 11 12 12 14 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
BSC6P Spencer 3B Modal Unknown
13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 13 28 17 9 10 11 11 26 15 20 29 15 16 16 17 12 11 18 23 16 15 18 18 35 40 12 12 12 12 15 11 9 16 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 23 23 16 11 12 12 14 8 23 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
G246S Spencer Unknown
13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 13 28 17 9 10 11 11 26 15 20 29 15 16 16 17 11 11 18 23 16 15 18 18 35 40 12 12 12 12 15 11 9 16 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 23 23 15 11 12 12 14 8 23 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
W2ZRE Spencer Augusta Co, VA, America
13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 13 28 17 9 10 11 11 26 15 19 29 15 16 16 17 12 10 18 23 16 15 18 18 35 40 12 12 12 12 15 11 9 16 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 23 23 16 11 12 12 14 8 23 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
WTD9H Spencer England
13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 13 28 16 9 10 11 11 26 15 20 29 15 16 16 17 11 11 18 23 16 15 17 19 35 40 12 12 12 12 15 11 9 16 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 22 23 16 11 12 12 14 8 23 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
It could be one of these new subclades of R-P312. Anyway Geno 2.0 could be useful.

Rathna
11-05-2013, 01:36 PM
03B-Abraham m.SHARPE

This is the cluster of the Spencer project you belong to.

Yggdrasil
11-05-2013, 01:40 PM
Thank you for answering Rathna. Yes, I have seen this, but none of the others did any SNP-testing, so it doesn´t help me much in terms of guessing a subclade. Does Geno 2.0 (sorry for the lack of correctness) test for any of the new R-P312 subclades?

Rathna
11-05-2013, 02:03 PM
Thank you for answering Rathna. Yes, I have seen this, but none of the others did any SNP-testing, so it doesn´t help me much in terms of guessing a subclade. Does Geno 2.0 (sorry for the lack of correctness) test for any of the new R-P312 subclades?

Probably not for the most interesting (DF19, L238), but, by excluding any others, it could address you anyway, but at this point it would seem to me more interesting the link with these "Spencer" than to know the subclade. Anyway you should enter the "Spencer " project and it would be enough to test one of them to know the subclade. More interesting it would seem to me to know if these Englishmen come from Norway or the other way around.

Yggdrasil
11-05-2013, 04:20 PM
Probably not for the most interesting (DF19, L238), but, by excluding any others, it could address you anyway, but at this point it would seem to me more interesting the link with these "Spencer" than to know the subclade. Anyway you should enter the "Spencer " project and it would be enough to test one of them to know the subclade. More interesting it would seem to me to know if these Englishmen come from Norway or the other way around.

That is an interesting question, it could be either. :) The Spencers don´t seem to know exactly where on the British Isles they originate from, so learning which subclade we all belong to could possibly give new clues in that respect? My paper trail hits a wall in the early 1600s.

It did not occur to me that I could enter the Spencer project when our family don´t have that surname or any known British connection. I will have a go at that.

Rathna
11-05-2013, 06:02 PM
That is an interesting question, it could be either. :) The Spencers don´t seem to know exactly where on the British Isles they originate from, so learning which subclade we all belong to could possibly give new clues in that respect? My paper trail hits a wall in the early 1600s.

It did not occur to me that I could enter the Spencer project when our family don´t have that surname or any known British connection. I will have a go at that.

If I were you I would enter in the project, because there are many interesting questions:
you seem very close, also in the fast mutating markers, but you have also mutations in very slow ones:
a) DYS439=14 against 13
b) DYS442=11 against 12
c) DYS406S1=9 against 10
d) DYS557: some have 15 and others 16
e) DYS481=22 against the 23 of the Spencer and you match others like Holmes and a Pole (Krajewski Margonin).

Then I think that the link goes beyond the Spencers and also the Englishmen. It seems a link due to maritime peoples and perhaps to the expansion of the northern German peoples.

Yggdrasil
11-05-2013, 10:01 PM
If I were you I would enter in the project, because there are many interesting questions:
you seem very close, also in the fast mutating markers, but you have also mutations in very slow ones:
a) DYS439=14 against 13
b) DYS442=11 against 12
c) DYS406S1=9 against 10
d) DYS557: some have 15 and others 16
e) DYS481=22 against the 23 of the Spencer and you match others like Holmes and a Pole (Krajewski Margonin).

Then I think that the link goes beyond the Spencers and also the Englishmen. It seems a link due to maritime peoples and perhaps to the expansion of the northern German peoples.

I think Holmes has a known relation to the Spencers, because he is already in the project. They only allow people with ancestry that includes the Spencer surname.

So you´re saying the most recent common ancestor was not as recent as one might think, because of the differences in the slow markers? Which brings me back to Geno 2.0 :)

Rathna
11-06-2013, 02:28 AM
I think Holmes has a known relation to the Spencers, because he is already in the project. They only allow people with ancestry that includes the Spencer surname.

So you´re saying the most recent common ancestor was not as recent as one might think, because of the differences in the slow markers? Which brings me back to Geno 2.0 :)

Yes, I do. You are an outlier as to them, who are very close and descend from one only ancestor. The origin could be from a Viking and Geno 2.0 could demonstrate that this is a Scandinavian R-P312.

GoldenHind
11-07-2013, 02:28 AM
So I ordered geno2 for my R1b kit (grandfather). I have 67 markers and a positive P312, but that is all I know as of yet. I feel a bit uncertain that I made a good choice about geno2. Perhaps I could better use the test for another family member?

Ysearch ID is APGCD. I am presently in the FTDNA P312 project where my kit remains ungrouped. Any thougts regarding the markers are welcome!

I had a quick look at your results and it seems unlikely though not impossible for you to be L238. L238 is a subclade of P312 which is closely associated with Scandinavia in general and Norway in particular. Generally it is easily identifiable from STRs.

I would have suggested the Chromo 2 test from BritainsDNA over Geno 2, as it tests for many more SNPs. However if you have already ordered Geno 2, you should wait for the results before ordering any further SNP testing.

TigerMW
11-07-2013, 07:07 AM
How does one go about using the 67STR compare spreadsheet?

Did I ever answer this? You have to download the spreadsheet from the R1b-YDNA Yahoo group Links onto a machine with Excel or a compatible spreadsheet tool. Open the R1b 67 STR file and enable macros if you can. There is a set of columns to the right where you can put one "X" on the target haplotype row and GD's to everyone else in the spreadsheet are calculated. You can then sort by GD (which puts your target on top and next closest to it) or use column autofiltering to look at the top (lowest) GDs to your target. You can then shift over to the off modal incement STR columns which are sorted from slowest to faster. There you can look for patterns to that match your target haplotype.

If you find an STR signature that seems to work go look at those peoples' Relevant SNPs column to the left and see if any have advanced their testing. Hopefully someone has and you can get an idea about which SNPs you might test for, if using the one at a time, rifle shot approach.

Yggdrasil
11-07-2013, 10:33 AM
Yes, I do. You are an outlier as to them, who are very close and descend from one only ancestor. The origin could be from a Viking and Geno 2.0 could demonstrate that this is a Scandinavian R-P312.


I had a quick look at your results and it seems unlikely though not impossible for you to be L238. L238 is a subclade of P312 which is closely associated with Scandinavia in general and Norway in particular. Generally it is easily identifiable from STRs.

I would have suggested the Chromo 2 test from BritainsDNA over Geno 2, as it tests for many more SNPs. However if you have already ordered Geno 2, you should wait for the results before ordering any further SNP testing.

Thank you both! I have seen that there are some similarities with the L238 STRs, but also great differences.

I manage three ancestral Y-DNA kits which results represent a rather typical Norwegian spread. One is I1 P109, one is R1a L448 (CTS4179+) and the above mentioned R1b kit. Under I1 there are a couple of SNPs that are available for testing but I don´t know if Geno 2.0 will test for those or any other SNPs below P109. Yet another ancestral line is I1, but it´s not my kit and he only knows he is L22-. Under R1a there is nothing more to test at this point. I could use the Geno 2.0 on that last I1 line, though it seems to me that R1b will give more value for the money.

I have been reluctant to ordering Chromo2 because of the lack of information. The anglocentric narrative may not be relevant and if I order only the raw data I wouldn´t know how to analyze the results. Did any customer actually receive Chromo2 results yet?

Invisible Sun
11-30-2013, 12:11 PM
I am the theorist of the "Italian Refugium" and pretty all are thinking to me like a nationalist, thus it should be not in line with my theories to suggest a foreign origin to your haplotype, but I look at the data in spite of what the others think about me, and it seemed to me that your haplotype found its closest matches in the Iberian R-P312, we know it is the most diffused there, even though my theory is that also it came from Italy.
I believed that the other markers values of Rìos were for instance DYS437 and DYS448=14-18, but I saw that they were 15-19. Unfortunately the researches on SMGF are very limited now and I couldn't follow my research. I'll look at Ysearch, but at this point a SNP test of yours or an upgrade of your STRs values would need.
23andMe has been very reliable for me and for all my relatives I tested, also for L23 and L49. I am R-Z2105+ and L277- and L584-.
I'll look at your data on the "Adriano Squecco spreadsheet".

P.S. You aren't R-L51 because you have DYS426=12 and not 13. You have 13 in DYS388, and this differentiates you from the closest British ones (actually ancient Celts) and links you to the Spaniards I found on SMGF, and DYS388 is a very slow mutating marker, more than DYS385a.


I just received my results, FTDNA haplotree shows P310 red/negative. So, taking for granted that nothing went wrong with these tests I´m between M269 (L49+ according to 23&me) and L51 or Z2103 subclades. Uff, still no terminal subclade...

Joe B
11-30-2013, 08:05 PM
23andme
R M173+ M343No Call P25NC M297- M335- M18- M269- S3- M73- L23NC L49+ L51- L11- S21- S116NC U152- L21- and all the others negative.

Y hap bone test confirmed M269!
Here is my 12STR haplotype (I know it's not enough for a solid prediction)

13 24 15 10 12-15 12 13 12 14 13 30



I just received my results, FTDNA haplotree shows P310 red/negative. So, taking for granted that nothing went wrong with these tests I´m between M269 (L49+ according to 23&me) and L51 or Z2103 subclades. Uff, still no terminal subclade...
This is a tough one because of the STRs. If you look at the top of the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) - Y-DNA Colorized Chart two groups have a couple of DYS388=13 guys.
_a. R1b1a2: L150.?+ L23- L51- L11- (also possibly PF7558+, PF7562+ & PF7563+) This group is L150+, L23-, L49-, Z2105- and no DYS388=13 so far
_a. R1b1a2: L23- L51- L11- Two DYS388=13
_b. R1b1a2a2: L23+ Z2103+ Z2105+ L51- L11- Seven DYS388=13

This really is doing your own "Deep Clade" test. Testing for Z2103 makes sense as a positive or negative should be informative. It is a very reliable SNP. Hopefully in the future you will test to at least 67 STRs and many more SNPs via modern SNP array testing. Sounds like you already know that.
Good luck.
Early R1b descendency tree chart (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?820-R1b-Early-Branching-Phylogeny-%28SNP-based-family-tree%29&p=15405&viewfull=1#post15405)

Invisible Sun
11-30-2013, 08:29 PM
@Joe B: many thanks for your contribution, I´ve been checking the ht35 group page for a while, but it´s difficult to draw any conclusion without knowing which STRs should be mostly taken into account. Now I´ll wait a bit, just paid 23andme, Y-STR12 and P310 tests without receiving consistant results :P And, as Rathna said, my STR looked mostly S116...
I wonder if the paternal line could be balcanic or anatolian, I´ve got 4gp matches from both areas on 23andme.

Rathna
11-30-2013, 09:16 PM
@Joe B: many thanks for your contribution, I´ve been checking the ht35 group page for a while, but it´s difficult to draw any conclusion without knowing which STRs should be mostly taken into account. Now I´ll wait a bit, just paid 23andme, Y-STR12 and P310 tests without receiving consistant results :P And, as Rathna said, my STR looked mostly S116...
I wonder if the paternal line could be balcanic or anatolian, I´ve got 4gp matches from both areas on 23andme.

Invisible Sun, I'll study again your case, but unfortunately secrets don't help. You say that you come from Palermo and that your surname is rare, but just by knowing your surname I could make my hypothesis, for instance if your surname were Arbereshe you could be a R-L23/Z2105 of Balkan origin, interesting because with a new haplotype and different from the others known so far.
You know that below Palermo there are many towns of Arbereshe origin: Xora i-Arbereshevet.

Joe B
11-30-2013, 09:25 PM
@Joe B: many thanks for your contribution, I´ve been checking the ht35 group page for a while, but it´s difficult to draw any conclusion without knowing which STRs should be mostly taken into account. Now I´ll wait a bit, just paid 23andme, Y-STR12 and P310 tests without receiving consistant results :P And, as Rathna said, my STR looked mostly S116...
I wonder if the paternal line could be balcanic or anatolian, I´ve got 4gp matches from both areas on 23andme.
The Balkins or Anatolia would be a safe bet for you and Sicily. Of course, sitting in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea with eons of history, the scenario is your choice.
I would say that your results with FTDNA are consistant. A negative result can be as informative as a positive SNP result.

It's not fun paying for these test. Science demands that you do anyway!:beerchug:

Edit:
Humanist has an interesting post today. #190 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?30-Eurogenes-Project-thread&p=21474&viewfull=1#post21474)
Differential Greek and northern African migrations to Sicily are supported by genetic evidence from the Y chromosome
Di Gaetano et al.
2009

Invisible Sun
12-01-2013, 02:45 PM
Invisible Sun, I'll study again your case, but unfortunately secrets don't help. You say that you come from Palermo and that your surname is rare, but just by knowing your surname I could make my hypothesis, for instance if your surname were Arbereshe you could be a R-L23/Z2105 of Balkan origin, interesting because with a new haplotype and different from the others known so far.
You know that below Palermo there are many towns of Arbereshe origin: Xora i-Arbereshevet.

Rathna, you are right and I perfectly understand your point of view, but just because we are very few in the city and I already gave a description of my (quite uncommon) phenotype on other forums, it would be like posting my cv or social network profiles here. I know it sounds silly, but I´m a very reserved person irl and I would like to be the same here, especially if I post gedmatch results; I have my reasons.
Anyway my surname does not help, it has identical homophones among French and Hungarian surnames, a similar Arabic word and a small town in Serbia. Or it could also be a job related surname. I don´t think it´s Arbereshe, I know people from Piana degli Albanesi, there is no one with my surname. I´ve already made various researches on it. In any case thanks a lot for your time and consideration. ;)

Invisible Sun
12-01-2013, 02:52 PM
The Balkins or Anatolia would be a safe bet for you and Sicily. Of course, sitting in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea with eons of history, the scenario is your choice.
I would say that your results with FTDNA are consistant. A negative result can be as informative as a positive SNP result.

It's not fun paying for these test. Science demands that you do anyway!:beerchug:

Edit:

I know it´s right to pay for these services, I was referring to my disappointment regarding 23andme analysis :beerchug:
Even after the Normans Palermo saw massive settlements of various people, like Italian merchants, mercenaries from the Balkans and slaves from everywhere.
Here is what I get with the latest Eurogenes K13 test (consider I´m 12,5% North Italian on maternal side):

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tuscan 6.71
2 South_Italian 8.26
3 Greek 8.8
4 North_Italian 12.12
5 Ashkenazi 12.56
6 Sephardic_Jewish 13.7
7 Bulgarian 17.8
8 Romanian 19.01
9 Spanish_Extremadura 19.1
10 Spanish_Andalucia 19.67

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 52.5% Cyprian + 47.5% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.12
2 54.3% Cyprian + 45.7% Southwest_French @ 2.3
3 50.1% Cyprian + 49.9% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.49
4 53.4% Spanish_Extremadura + 46.6% Cyprian @ 2.56
5 52.7% Spanish_Andalucia + 47.3% Cyprian @ 2.56
6 76.7% South_Italian + 23.3% Southwest_French @ 2.61
7 75.5% South_Italian + 24.5% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.81
8 82.3% South_Italian + 17.7% French_Basque @ 3.02
9 71.7% South_Italian + 28.3% Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.02
10 71.1% South_Italian + 28.9% Spanish_Extremadura @ 3.09
11 74% South_Italian + 26% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 3.11
12 51% Spanish_Galicia + 49% Cyprian @ 3.12
13 60.5% South_Italian + 39.5% North_Italian @ 3.14
14 52.9% Cyprian + 47.1% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.15
15 62.2% Cyprian + 37.8% French_Basque @ 3.17
16 73.2% South_Italian + 26.8% Spanish_Galicia @ 3.21
17 50% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon + 50% Cyprian @ 3.23
18 76.3% South_Italian + 23.7% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.32
19 52.5% Portuguese + 47.5% Cyprian @ 3.41
20 73.6% South_Italian + 26.4% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.42

If my paternal ancestor arrived after 1500, there should be a possibility I still have some autosomal trace of the country of origin (these tests should detect a bit more then 23&me´s AC).
Thanks for the link, I knew that study since many years, always interesting :)

Invisible Sun
01-11-2014, 11:52 AM
I recently found this haplotype 289676 Eleusin 13 24 15 10 11-14 12 13 12 14 13 30
it is quite similar to mine,dys388=13 like me but the two dys385 values are different...maybe just a coincidence?

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Tatarstan/default.aspx?section=yresults

Ignis90
10-31-2014, 11:40 PM
The title of this thread is spot on, but it is for a friend of mine. I am not very familiar with the more basal R1b and/or with no call situations, so here it is.

He just got his first results @23andme, which is obsolete in the haplogroup section (naming and genotyping). Anyway, he is "R1b1b2".
M269+ but no call for S3.

So in up-to-date terms (ISOGG 2014), he's R1b1a2* for now.
What can I make of this? Thanks in advance.

ArmandoR1b
11-01-2014, 12:49 AM
The title of this thread is spot on, but it is for a friend of mine. I am not very familiar with the more basal R1b and/or with no call situations, so here it is.

He just got his first results @23andme, which is obsolete in the haplogroup section (naming and genotyping). Anyway, he is "R1b1b2".
M269+ but no call for S3.

So in up-to-date terms (ISOGG 2014), he's R1b1a2* for now.
What can I make of this? Thanks in advance.
He is negative for U106, L21, and U152 which are tested for by 23andme. He is possibly positive for DF100 or P312 and DF27 which aren't tested by 23andme.

Il Papà
11-01-2014, 01:23 AM
He is negative for U106, L21, and U152 which are tested for by 23andme. He is possibly positive for DF100 or P312 and DF27 which aren't tested by 23andme.

Certainly not ,He is L23 negative so he can't be P312 or any other downstream of L23.

ArmandoR1b
11-01-2014, 02:02 AM
Certainly not ,He is L23 negative so he can't be P312 or any other downstream of L23.

My apologies. I had gotten the longhand mixed up with another one.

Ignis90
11-01-2014, 12:54 PM
Thank you all. So FTDNA is the way? I wonder if it is worth it. I don't want to pay for a result I expect (R1b-M269*).


I forgot to mention the guy is of Italian descent, which means he could have a minor but not uncommon haplogroup in South and Southeastern Europe.

Invisible Sun
11-25-2014, 10:49 PM
Hallo,
it seems I could finally find some kind of help in this thread.
Last December I took 23andme test, they classify my Yhp as R1, and looking at their tree mapper here is what I read:

R M173+ M343No Call P25NC M297- M335- M18- M269- S3- M73- L23NC L49+ L51- L11- S21- S116NC U152- L21- and all the others negative.

after a couple of chats with Adriano Squecco and Dr Krahn (before the summer) I decided to took the FTDNA 12 markers test, expecting P25, V88 or something else not included in 23andme list. Y hap bone test confirmed M269! Given the negative response of 23andme I asked to FTDNA customer care service to double check, and they kindly replied "I heard back from the lab earlier today and they confirmed that it was a clear read on the M269 result and that it was positive."
Here is my 12STR haplotype (I know it's not enough for a solid prediction)

13 24 15 10 12-15 12 13 12 14 13 30



Hello,
I just received my FTDNA Y-67 test, by comparing with ftdna projects and other sources it seems to me I´m a P25 (L389?), perhaps pointing to a West Asian/Armenian/Caucasus cluster? Thanks in advance to whoever bothers to comment.

13 24 15 10 12-15 12 13 12 14 13 30 14 9-9 11 11 26 14 17 30 14-14-14-14-14-16 11 11 23-24 15 17 19 17 32-32 13 11 11 8 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 19-21 14 10 12 12 14 8 12 23 20 16 11 11 13 12 11 12 12

rms2
11-26-2014, 12:18 AM
Hello,
I just received my FTDNA Y-67 test, by comparing with ftdna projects and other sources it seems to me I´m a P25 (L389?), perhaps pointing to a West Asian/Armenian/Caucasus cluster? Thanks in advance to whoever bothers to comment.

13 24 15 10 12-15 12 13 12 14 13 30 14 9-9 11 11 26 14 17 30 14-14-14-14-14-16 11 11 23-24 15 17 19 17 32-32 13 11 11 8 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 19-21 14 10 12 12 14 8 12 23 20 16 11 11 13 12 11 12 12

According to Whit Athey's Y Haplogroup Predictor (http://www.hprg.com/hapest5/hapest5a/hapest5.htm), that haplotype has a 99.9% probability of belonging to y haplogroup Q.

I don't think I made any mistakes entering the numbers, but try it yourself. No other haplogroup was even close.

frankhpns
11-26-2014, 09:48 PM
I could use some advice. I tested at 23&me, FTDNA and YSEQ. I am currently waiting on the results of the YSEQ R1b-L21 Super-Clade Orientation Panel. So far it indicates that I fall under DF13. I had + alleles at DF13, L536, S521, PF5860 & CTS241. My FTDNA Loci are:
13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 13
13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19
30 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15
14 19 17 34 39 13 12 11 9 15
16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23 23
16 10 12 12 15 8 11 22 21 13
12 11 13 11 11 12 12

My last name is Papasavas. I know my father was Greek as well as my Grandfather and Great-Grandfather, however after these results I am having doubts. I tried several Haplotype prediction tools, however they only got me to R1b. Are there any additional predictors I could use?

rms2
11-27-2014, 02:21 AM
I could use some advice. I tested at 23&me, FTDNA and YSEQ. I am currently waiting on the results of the YSEQ R1b-L21 Super-Clade Orientation Panel. So far it indicates that I fall under DF13. I had + alleles at DF13, L536, S521, PF5860 & CTS241. My FTDNA Loci are:
13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 13
13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19
30 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15
14 19 17 34 39 13 12 11 9 15
16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23 23
16 10 12 12 15 8 11 22 21 13
12 11 13 11 11 12 12

My last name is Papasavas. I know my father was Greek as well as my Grandfather and Great-Grandfather, however after these results I am having doubts. I tried several Haplotype prediction tools, however they only got me to R1b. Are there any additional predictors I could use?

Well, S521 and CTS241 are just alternative names for DF13, so you are DF13+. I could not find L536 and PF5860 at ISOGG.

Your closest match in the L21 Project who has tested positive for a downstream SNP is DF21+. He is 9 away from you at 67 markers. That's not close enough to be a lock, but it's not too far off. I would give DF21 a shot.

Invisible Sun
11-29-2014, 06:19 PM
According to Whit Athey's Y Haplogroup Predictor (http://www.hprg.com/hapest5/hapest5a/hapest5.htm), that haplotype has a 99.9% probability of belonging to y haplogroup Q.

I don't think I made any mistakes entering the numbers, but try it yourself. No other haplogroup was even close.

Thanx rms2, I saw the convergence on Q (when I tried the calculator it was a 100% match), however I´m negative for Q M242 and downstream SNPs according to my ISOGG haplotree, while I have many positive SNPs for R and R1.
It´s a pity that my 23andme chip version didn´t test early sublclades like P25 and V88.
On ysearch I get mostly R1b matches.

rms2
11-29-2014, 06:51 PM
Thanx rms2, I saw the convergence on Q (when I tried the calculator it was a 100% match), however I´m negative for Q M242 and downstream SNPs according to my ISOGG haplotree, while I have many positive SNPs for R and R1.
It´s a pity that my 23andme chip version didn´t test early sublclades like P25 and V88.
On ysearch I get mostly R1b matches.

Well, Q and R are closely related, both being the offspring of P, so it's not too surprising. When I first glanced at your haplotype, I half expected it to be R1a, but that did not work out.

Invisible Sun
11-29-2014, 07:01 PM
Well, Q and R are closely related, both being the offspring of P, so it's not too surprising. When I first glanced at your haplotype, I half expected it to be R1a, but that did not work out.

I thought exactly the same. Do you think that this haplotype could be a R1b-M343 or even a R1-M173, therefore the similiarities with R1a and Q haplotypes? even if I think this is less likely, though fascinating :)

rms2
11-29-2014, 07:18 PM
I thought exactly the same. Do you think that this haplotype could be a R1b-M343 or even a R1-M173, therefore the similiarities with R1a and Q haplotypes? even if I think this is less likely, though fascinating :)

It belongs to a modern man, so it won't actually be some throwback to a bygone era, but it doesn't appear to be western.

Invisible Sun
11-29-2014, 07:44 PM
yes, I meant fascinating since mentioned SNP are rare as terminal, not that I descend from some Caspian hunter-gatherer community survived until modern age :)

Ed Aber
11-25-2015, 05:16 PM
I could use some advice. I tested at 23&me, FTDNA and YSEQ. I am currently waiting on the results of the YSEQ R1b-L21 Super-Clade Orientation Panel. So far it indicates that I fall under DF13. I had + alleles at DF13, L536, S521, PF5860 & CTS241. My FTDNA Loci are:
13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 13
13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19
30 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15
14 19 17 34 39 13 12 11 9 15
16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23 23
16 10 12 12 15 8 11 22 21 13
12 11 13 11 11 12 12

My last name is Papasavas. I know my father was Greek as well as my Grandfather and Great-Grandfather, however after these results I am having doubts. I tried several Haplotype prediction tools, however they only got me to R1b. Are there any additional predictors I could use?

A guy I'm working with is also YSEQ tested DF13, L536, S521, PF5860 & CTS241.
What more do you know now ?

rms2
11-26-2015, 01:50 PM
S521 and CTS241 are on the same level as DF13 and so for now are accounted as equivalent to it. I'm not familiar with L536 or PF5860 and could not find either on ISOGG's R Tree. At the moment I can't seem to get into YFull's R1b Tree, but maybe someone else here is familiar with those two.

rms2
11-26-2015, 02:15 PM
S521 and CTS241 are on the same level as DF13 and so for now are accounted as equivalent to it. I'm not familiar with L536 or PF5860 and could not find either on ISOGG's R Tree. At the moment I can't seem to get into YFull's R1b Tree, but maybe someone else here is familiar with those two.

I finally got into YFull. It looks like L536 and PF5860 are on the same level as P, so not too significant in terms of one's R1b-L21 terminal SNP. Looks like DF13 is as far as your friend goes for now.

Anglo-Celtic DC
11-27-2015, 03:42 PM
I have a dumb question. According to 23andme I am R1b1b2a1a1. How does this compare with other naming conventions? For instance, I am reading Stephen Oppenheimer's Origins of the British, and he seems to use a different naming convention.

rms2
12-02-2015, 05:53 PM
I have a dumb question. According to 23andme I am R1b1b2a1a1. How does this compare with other naming conventions? For instance, I am reading Stephen Oppenheimer's Origins of the British, and he seems to use a different naming convention.

I think that is 23andMe's name for R1b-U106. What terminal SNP did they give you, M405? If so, M405 is another name for U106/S21.

Re Oppenheimer's book: it is obsolete, and really was obsolete when it first appeared in print.

Anglo-Celtic DC
12-03-2015, 02:03 PM
I think that is 23andMe's name for R1b-U106. What terminal SNP did they give you, M405? If so, M405 is another name for U106/S21.

Re Oppenheimer's book: it is obsolete, and really was obsolete when it first appeared in print.

Interesting. In a nutshell, how is it obsolete? Curious here!

ADW_1981
12-03-2015, 02:09 PM
Thanx rms2, I saw the convergence on Q (when I tried the calculator it was a 100% match), however I´m negative for Q M242 and downstream SNPs according to my ISOGG haplotree, while I have many positive SNPs for R and R1.
It´s a pity that my 23andme chip version didn´t test early sublclades like P25 and V88.
On ysearch I get mostly R1b matches.

I believe there is a R1b SNP pack you could look into, or just order L389 or V88 a la carte. Make sure you join this project: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1Asterisk/default.aspx?section=yresults

ADW_1981
12-03-2015, 02:12 PM
I could use some advice. I tested at 23&me, FTDNA and YSEQ. I am currently waiting on the results of the YSEQ R1b-L21 Super-Clade Orientation Panel. So far it indicates that I fall under DF13. I had + alleles at DF13, L536, S521, PF5860 & CTS241. My FTDNA Loci are:
13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 13
13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19
30 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15
14 19 17 34 39 13 12 11 9 15
16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23 23
16 10 12 12 15 8 11 22 21 13
12 11 13 11 11 12 12

My last name is Papasavas. I know my father was Greek as well as my Grandfather and Great-Grandfather, however after these results I am having doubts. I tried several Haplotype prediction tools, however they only got me to R1b. Are there any additional predictors I could use?

A L21 Greek turned up in a recent Dagestan study. It's authentic, just rare in the region.

rms2
12-03-2015, 04:45 PM
Interesting. In a nutshell, how is it obsolete? Curious here!

Oppenheimer asserted that R1b spent the Last Glacial Maximum in the Franco-Cantabrian Ice Age Refuge (also referred to as the Iberian Ice Age Refuge), expanding east and north from there as the ice retreated.

That was pretty much the consensus of opinion back about 8-10 years ago, when the old, erroneous, 19th century idea that the Basques were some sort of Paleolithic relic population was still current, Zhivotovsky's effective or evolutionary mutation rates were accepted as gospel, and there were as yet no reliable ancient dna test results.

Oppenheimer's conclusions were based on six-marker "bikini" haplotypes, as well.

Since then, the acceptance of the observable germ line mutation rates, the advent of snp counting, and especially the rise of ancient dna testing, have radically altered the consensus.

Now most people believe that the ancestors of most of the R1b in Europe did not move west of the Dniester until the Late Neolithic/Copper Age and came with the early Indo-Europeans.

paulo412
12-09-2015, 12:38 AM
Hi all,

I am predicted R-M269, I bought backbone test. With 67 markers I match with Brazilian only one with 37 too. 25 markers 2636 Matches, many Irish, Scotish and England. :)
But I am not from this country. My family come from Rio Grande do Sul (Brazil). Many people send email to me to ask if I had cuban or Irish... :) so strange.
Be seriously, Backbone can confirm my R-M269 or I must do another test?
Thanks

Huntergatherer1066
12-09-2015, 01:50 AM
Hi all,

I am predicted R-M269, I bought backbone test. With 67 markers I match with Brazilian only one with 37 too. 25 markers 2636 Matches, many Irish, Scotish and England. :)
But I am not from this country. My family come from Rio Grande do Sul (Brazil). Many people send email to me to ask if I had cuban or Irish... :) so strange.
Be seriously, Backbone can confirm my R-M269 or I must do another test?
Thanks

Do you have the WAMH badge on your homepage by any chance? If you've ordered the M343 Backbone Panel, that will confirm whether are M269 and also many other more recent SNPs. It will help you be able to sort out which matches are more relevant. My uncle is an R-U106 man with the WAMH signature, he has many irrelevant matches at lower levels that could only be sorted out via SNP testing.

paulo412
12-09-2015, 09:43 AM
Hi,
Yes, I had WAMH badge on my top page
I am awaiting results. thanks :)

TigerMW
12-09-2015, 10:50 PM
I think we'll get better at providing guidance on haplogroup directions. A lot of people are upgrading to 111 STRs. Coupling this with a large number of R1b-M343 Backbone SNP Packs and all of the Big Y and FGC tests done over the last two years is giving us a much better comparison capability for R1b.

paulo412
01-05-2016, 06:59 PM
R1b-M343 Backbone SNP Packs give me R-Z225, I am in DF27 project. FTDNA purpose DF27 SNP Pack test. I don't knwo how many Pack I can do to be had my defintive haplogroup? ;)

Your Confirmed Haplogroup is R-Z225 - WAMH badge

ArmandoR1b
01-05-2016, 08:40 PM
R1b-M343 Backbone SNP Packs give me R-Z225, I am in DF27 project. FTDNA purpose DF27 SNP Pack test. I don't knwo how many Pack I can do to be had my defintive haplogroup? ;)

Your Confirmed Haplogroup is R-Z225 - WAMH badge

There is only one pack left that can possibly put you into a subclade downstream from Z225 and that is the DF27 SNP pack. After that you would have to get a BigY or FGC test.

razyn
01-05-2016, 08:44 PM
The DF27 SNP pack would get you to some level below Z225. Anyway if you order another SNP pack that's the right one, for a Z225+ person.

The M343 pack tests people who don't have a clue, and now you have a very specific clue, so it worked.

Ignis90
04-26-2016, 12:08 PM
Need a little help before I purchase a kit at FTDNA. My friend's paternal line is Italian and 23andme gave him:

R1b1a2 M269+ CTS2664/PF6454 PF6500
negative=
L49.1- (R1b1a2a)

Which tests would be useful and which ones are worthless in this situation?

robhart
06-21-2019, 09:23 AM
Hello,
I think I Need a Little Help. I have got tested only with myheritage and calculated my raw data with Mr. Morley. The result was R1b1a2a1a2c1i PF6093. That is Pretty amazing, because I am from Germany and my paternal line too. Is that reliable? Should I make a better test? And if yes, which one?

palamede
06-23-2019, 08:02 PM
Hello,
I think I Need a Little Help. I have got tested only with myheritage and calculated my raw data with Mr. Morley. The result was R1b1a2a1a2c1i PF6093. That is Pretty amazing, because I am from Germany and my paternal line too. Is that reliable? Should I make a better test? And if yes, which one?

In your info on the left you put Y-DNA PF6903 and not PF6093, could you correct ? In Yfull, PF6093 is a very recurring mutation in different locations of the phylotree, that prevents from giving any exact haplogroup :
This position for SNP is not in the YTree
− PF6093 A0
This position for SNP is not in the YTree
− PF6093 A1a
This position for SNP is not in the YTree
− PF6093 A1b1
This position for SNP is not in the YTree
− PF6093 B
This position for SNP is not in the YTree
− PF6093 DE
This position for SNP is not in the YTree
− PF6093 C
This position for SNP is not in the YTree
− PF6093 F-Y27277
This position for SNP is not in the YTree
− PF6093 G
This position for SNP is not in the YTree
− PF6093 H
This position for SNP is not in the YTree
− PF6093 IJ
This position for SNP is not in the YTree
− PF6093 LT
This position for SNP is not in the YTree
− PF6093 K2b1
This position for SNP is not in the YTree
− PF6093 Q
This position for SNP is not in the YTree
− PF6093 R1a
This position for SNP is not in the YTree
− PF6093 R2
This position for SNP is not in the YTree
− PF6093 K-M2335
This position for SNP is not in the YTree

ArmandoR1b
06-24-2019, 05:04 PM
Hello,
I think I Need a Little Help. I have got tested only with myheritage and calculated my raw data with Mr. Morley. The result was R1b1a2a1a2c1i PF6093. That is Pretty amazing, because I am from Germany and my paternal line too. Is that reliable? Should I make a better test? And if yes, which one? R1b1a2a1a2c1i was also known as DF41. If Morley also showed a positive result for L21 and for DF13 then a positive result for DF41 is likely to be reliable. SNPs with positive results have a green background. Untested SNPs do not have a colored background. Negative SNPs have a red background and can be important depending on the SNP. You can post a screenshot if want further confirmation.

Baraona
07-10-2019, 07:57 PM
Greetings! This is my first post. Same thing here. I did the same (upload from MH to Morley, and got the same result: PF6093. 31593

My oldest know paternal ancestor came from northern spain to Chile in 1555 aprox.

alejandromb92
05-22-2020, 03:13 PM
Greetings! This is my first post. Same thing here. I did the same (upload from MH to Morley, and got the same result: PF6093. 31593

My oldest know paternal ancestor came from northern spain to Chile in 1555 aprox.

I am positive for PF6093 in MorleyDNA too, but you gave negative for L21, so makes sense that you are DF27 now.

obi_wan_2
07-16-2020, 07:38 PM
Bonjour à tous. Comme Robhart et Baraona, J'ai fait le est avec myheritage et calculé mes données brutes avec M. Morley. Le résultat était R1b1a2a1a2c1i~2 PF6093.
Totalement débutant, je ne comprends pas tout pour le moment...)
voici le résultat Morley
38545
merci de me guider un peu...

Rael
07-18-2020, 01:46 PM
Bonjour obi_wan,

Moi aussi j'ai eu le même résultat sur morleydna. Je vous invite à télécharger vos données brutes sur le site suivant :https://cladefinder.yseq.net/
Tenez moi au courant du résultat.

msmarjoribanks
07-18-2020, 01:59 PM
Hi, I am wondering if anyone knows the answer to a question I have, or can help me figure out how to search for the answer.

I was working with some lower cM Ancestry matches to save them before Ancestry takes them away (by adding notes). A number of them have the same common ancestor, and although I know that can be misleading I did confirm that they are common matches with my closer matches on that side. Most notably, I noticed that a number of them are male line descendants of a particular ancestor, so that inspired me to do a search for a surname project, and they did have one, and the ones who were descended in the project from either the same ancestor or the same part of the country (Randolph, NC, although some had their ancestry back to England, supposedly) seemed to include a large number of relatively close Y matches. Most of them, as usual, were just listed as R-M269, but a few had a more specific haplogroup listed (R-BY54503), so I googled this to try to figure out where it fit in, and had no luck. I searched at YFull and nothing came up.

I'm not sure how to efficiently find out where they group might fit as part of the R-M269 tree. Does anyone know or perhaps is willing to tell me the best way to search one of the block trees?

JonikW
07-18-2020, 02:26 PM
Hi, I am wondering if anyone knows the answer to a question I have, or can help me figure out how to search for the answer.

I was working with some lower cM Ancestry matches to save them before Ancestry takes them away (by adding notes). A number of them have the same common ancestor, and although I know that can be misleading I did confirm that they are common matches with my closer matches on that side. Most notably, I noticed that a number of them are male line descendants of a particular ancestor, so that inspired me to do a search for a surname project, and they did have one, and the ones who were descended in the project from either the same ancestor or the same part of the country (Randolph, NC, although some had their ancestry back to England, supposedly) seemed to include a large number of relatively close Y matches. Most of them, as usual, were just listed as R-M269, but a few had a more specific haplogroup listed (R-BY54503), so I googled this to try to figure out where it fit in, and had no luck. I searched at YFull and nothing came up.

I'm not sure how to efficiently find out where they group might fit as part of the R-M269 tree. Does anyone know or perhaps is willing to tell me the best way to search one of the block trees?

I can see it on FTDNA's public haplotree. It's on the L23 branch.

DF49>ZP20>FGC11175>JD1>BY140623>BY70189>BY75720>BY54503

38572

msmarjoribanks
07-18-2020, 02:44 PM
Wonderful, thanks so much!

JonikW
07-18-2020, 02:53 PM
Wonderful, thanks so much!

Pleased to help. It's also under L21, which is worth pointing out.

Faus44
01-15-2021, 04:45 AM
Hola.
Realize la prueba de ADN de MyHeritage y con la copia de los resultados en bruto los ingrese en MorleyDNA.com.
Estos fueron los resultados:
42578
42579
No se como interpretarlos espero que ustedes puedan ayudarme. En cuanto a mis antepasado mas antiguo por parte paterna era de Castellbó en los Pirineos.

Aben Aboo
03-28-2021, 02:14 PM
Hello,
Please what is L51, Z2116?

capsian
03-28-2021, 02:34 PM
Hello,
Please what is L51, Z2116?

UNDER H.G R-M269

Aben Aboo
03-28-2021, 02:50 PM
UNDER H.G R-M269

As Salâm, yeah thanks i know that, but for Z2116 where this sub clade is? does it belongs mainly to a germanic, atlantic etc subclade?

Lupriac
03-28-2021, 03:09 PM
As Salâm, yeah thanks i know that, but for Z21116 where this sub clade is? does it belongs mainly to a germanic, atlantic etc subclade?

"R-Z2116" is found throughout Europe, with its ancestor R-Z2118 found in a Latin tribesman from central Italy, so it's most likely a central European cluster in origin. "Z21116" is equivalent to E-Z5010 which falls under E-M81, not R1b.

Aben Aboo
03-28-2021, 03:19 PM
"R-Z2116" is found throughout Europe, with its ancestor R-Z2118 found in a Latin tribesman from central Italy, so it's most likely a central European cluster in origin. "Z21116" is equivalent to E-Z5010 which falls under E-M81, not R1b.

Hello,
Thank you for your answer.
So it's more central european in origin and is from Latins in central italy, right?
Ok, and it's not specific to an european region, country? but sorry, why do you say "not R1B?"(sorry i want to understand very good and i don't know a lot about haplogroups)

Lupriac
03-28-2021, 03:41 PM
Hello,
Thank you for your answer.
So it's more central european in origin and is from Latins in central italy, right?
Ok, and it's not specific to an european region, country? but sorry, why do you say "not R1B?"(sorry i want to understand very good and i don't know a lot about haplogroups)
It's not possible to assign a specific place of origin to it, but looking at its presence among Iron age Latins (who themselves originate from central Europe, likely from the urnfield culture) it most likely came from there with them. But no not every R-Z2118 is Latin/Italic.
You mentioned "Z21116" in the second post, which I assume you meant Z2116, as these two SNP's belong to to different haplogroups; Z21116 is an SNP under haplogroup E, while Z2116 under R1b.

Aben Aboo
03-28-2021, 03:53 PM
It's not possible to assign a specific place of origin to it, but looking at its presence among Iron age Latins (who themselves originate from central Europe, likely from the urnfield culture) it most likely came from there with them. But no not every R-Z2118 is Latin/Italic.
You mentioned "Z21116" in the second post, which I assume you meant Z2116, as these two SNP's belong to to different haplogroups; Z21116 is an SNP under haplogroup E, while Z2116 under R1b.

Ok thank you for your patience, Yeah sorry it's Z2116, it's a mistake-;).

Aben Aboo
04-03-2021, 01:38 AM
I had seen Z2116 its seems originally italic sub-clade, born mainly around in North Italy/Alps area
https://indo-european.eu/2020/03/italo-venetic-peoples-related-patrilineally-to-terramare-elites/

RBHeadge
04-08-2021, 05:31 PM
I had seen Z2116 its seems originally italic sub-clade, born mainly around in North Italy/Alps area
https://indo-european.eu/2020/03/italo-venetic-peoples-related-patrilineally-to-terramare-elites/

I18130 (the human remains) is the oldest Z2118 (also known as PF7589) found to date. I18130 also has the subclade Z2116 (CTS6889). Z2116 (CTS10379) is a "son" of PF7589 and a "father" to CTS6889.
I18130 dates to 1400-1200 BCE. However the ECA of PF7589 is ~3100 BCE and CTS6889 is ~2500 BCE. A lot of movement can happen in 1300 years. I'd be very hesitant to narrow PF75889's homeland to such a small region with only one relatively young data point.

As @lupriac mentioned above, there are many PF7589 who don't appear to have italic origins. For instance WEZ57 might be PF7589. It looks like he grew up in Scandinavia and died at Tollense Valley ~1300-1200 BCE.

I agree with @lupriac that the most we can say right now is that it likely exploded in Central Europe.

I haven't seen a basal Z2116 before. All the Z2116+ so far in FTDNA and YFull falls under CTS6889 or Y5914. YFull does list a (possible) basal PF7589 from Turkey. Out of curiosity where might you paternal line derive? The modern distribution of ancient haplogroups isn't reflective of its origin but it is interesting to see how far it's travelled

Stolfi
04-22-2021, 08:11 PM
Well, I had my cousin (direct male line for mom's side of the female) take the Y-111 test. It came back as M269. I took the advice of someone on another post here and uploaded the info to NEVGEN (my results are below). What's strange to me is that my cousin's half brother took the 23andme test (they share the same father) and his results came back as R-Z159. Am I correct that 23andme gave a more detailed haplogroup than FTDNA?

Aben Aboo
04-23-2021, 05:21 AM
I18130 (the human remains) is the oldest Z2118 (also known as PF7589) found to date. I18130 also has the subclade Z2116 (CTS6889). Z2116 (CTS10379) is a "son" of PF7589 and a "father" to CTS6889.
I18130 dates to 1400-1200 BCE. However the ECA of PF7589 is ~3100 BCE and CTS6889 is ~2500 BCE. A lot of movement can happen in 1300 years. I'd be very hesitant to narrow PF75889's homeland to such a small region with only one relatively young data point.

As @lupriac mentioned above, there are many PF7589 who don't appear to have italic origins. For instance WEZ57 might be PF7589. It looks like he grew up in Scandinavia and died at Tollense Valley ~1300-1200 BCE.

I agree with @lupriac that the most we can say right now is that it likely exploded in Central Europe.

I haven't seen a basal Z2116 before. All the Z2116+ so far in FTDNA and YFull falls under CTS6889 or Y5914. YFull does list a (possible) basal PF7589 from Turkey. Out of curiosity where might you paternal line derive? The modern distribution of ancient haplogroups isn't reflective of its origin but it is interesting to see how far it's travelled

All right thanks,I see, yeah it's under CTS6889, for a friend. Interesting if you have another thing about it, you are welcome.

Aben Aboo
04-23-2021, 05:35 AM
Well, I had my cousin (direct male line for mom's side of the female) take the Y-111 test. It came back as M269. I took the advice of someone on another post here and uploaded the info to NEVGEN (my results are below). What's strange to me is that my cousin's half brother took the 23andme test (they share the same father) and his results came back as R-Z159. Am I correct that 23andme gave a more detailed haplogroup than FTDNA?

In this case, R-Z159 is more precise than just M269
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z159/

MacUalraig
04-23-2021, 07:01 AM
Well, I had my cousin (direct male line for mom's side of the female) take the Y-111 test. It came back as M269. I took the advice of someone on another post here and uploaded the info to NEVGEN (my results are below). What's strange to me is that my cousin's half brother took the 23andme test (they share the same father) and his results came back as R-Z159. Am I correct that 23andme gave a more detailed haplogroup than FTDNA?

It's very important to not get different concepts mingled up: the result of an STR test is a set of STRs, period. M269 is a SNP and is the result from a SNP test. Don't let testing companies or their reps merge the two ideas.

Virtually every day we get someone new on this board complaining that they took a large STR test and haven't advanced their haplogroup (most detailed SNP).
If anyone does a 23andMe test and an FTDNA STR test they will get a more detailed terminal SNP at 23andMe. It still won't be fully detailed though. To get the most accurate SNP as already mentioned you need a haplogroup test (YSEQ and FTDNA sell them) or a sequencing test (loads of firms now sell these eg YSEQ, Nebula, Dante, or even ftdna).

If you take any further test make sure the product description explicitly mentions SNPs. If it doesn't, it almost certainly isn't a haplogroup test.

Anoraki
05-11-2021, 07:58 AM
Hi,

I did myheritage DNA test, collected raw DNA and used Moley's for my Y-DNA. I can't figure out this results:

most likely: R1b1a2a1a2c1i~2 (very light green, no deep green in this mark)
R1b-PF6093

than, when i changed lines i put every last green colour:

R1b1a2a1a2c1i~2§ PF6093 (last green in second)
R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a1~6 CTS655, L753, (last green in third)
R1b1a2a1a2c M529/L21/S145, (last green in fourth)
R1b1a2a1a2b3b S47 (last green in fifth)
R1b1a2a1a2a1b3~2 L421, L433, L88R (last green in sixth)

Anyone knows what does it means?

TigerMW
05-13-2021, 12:29 AM
Well, I had my cousin (direct male line for mom's side of the female) take the Y-111 test. It came back as M269. I took the advice of someone on another post here and uploaded the info to NEVGEN (my results are below). What's strange to me is that my cousin's half brother took the 23andme test (they share the same father) and his results came back as R-Z159. Am I correct that 23andme gave a more detailed haplogroup than FTDNA?
The reasons for taking an Y STR test are different than Y SNP test.
Knowing what haplogroup you are via a fixed SNP test like 23andMe is not very useful to most people. Finding where you fit on the Y tree 3000 years ago is not very precise. Likewise, a Y STR panel test gives only a prediction. The reason people do Y STR panels is to insert themselves into the largest Y DNA matching database (about 700,000 records).
STRs are better for finding potential relatives.
If you want a precise haplogroup on the Y tree you need an SNP discovery (Next Generation Sequencing) like Big Y700.
Big Y700 is really two tests in one. It is an SNP discovery test and a Y111 STR Panel.