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MyAnthropologies
07-18-2016, 06:33 PM
For any caucasian members out there, such as Georgians, Armenians, Chechens, etc, do you feel closer to Europe or the Middle East in tersm of everything? I feel like Azeris, Circassians, and Chechens might feel more connections with the Middle East, while Georgians and Armenians probably feel more apart of Europe.

Anabasis
07-18-2016, 09:03 PM
Middle Eastern because Caucaus is in middle east.

manus
07-22-2016, 08:36 PM
Middle Eastern because Caucaus is in middle east.


Since when? Georgia, North Caucasus for example is closer to Russia, Ukraine than to Iraq. Personally i think North Caucasus is Europe. Southern Caucasus is a category of its own, neither European or Middle Eastern.

MyAnthropologies
07-28-2016, 04:15 AM
Since when? Georgia, North Caucasus for example is closer to Russia, Ukraine than to Iraq. Personally i think North Caucasus is Europe. Southern Caucasus is a category of its own, neither European or Middle Eastern.

Yes but North Caucasians are culturally closer to Middle Easterners than South Caucasians. And they seem to identify with them as well.

vettor
07-28-2016, 05:50 AM
I do not believe in any middle-easterners north of the Zargos mountains

I refer Iranians/Persians as non middle-easterners, same thinking for tuirkey/anatolians, same for Azeri, Kurds, Armenians, Georgians

Volat
07-28-2016, 07:10 AM
Caucasus region is not uniform culturally.

Chechnya, people of Dagestan, Ingushetia are conservative muslims, in some instances radical.
Northern & southern Ossetia, Georgia, Armenia are Christian. Armenians speak an Indo-European language. Ossetians speak and Indo-Iranian language. Armenian culture is similar to east Anatolian.
Azerbaijan is a moderate muslim country.
There are north-west Caucasians such as Adyghe, who are probably have most similar physical appearance to Europeans in comparison to other people of Caucasus. Adyghe are also more similar to Europeans genetically.

Abd.H
07-28-2016, 11:12 AM
I do not believe in any middle-easterners north of the Zargos mountains

I refer Iranians/Persians as non middle-easterners, same thinking for tuirkey/anatolians, same for Azeri, Kurds, Armenians, Georgians
So middle easterners are only the Arabian countries ?

Arame
07-28-2016, 01:25 PM
The last 100-200 years South Caucasus was mostly connected to European culturale code via the Russian dominance. Today after the collapse of USSR things are changing and the influence of Near East & Iran is increasing. But the direct influence of Europe (not via Russia) is also increasing.

XooR
07-28-2016, 02:07 PM
Lets think outside the box and change the question like this;

"Europeans, do you see yourselves as closer to Caucasians or to Middle Easterners?"

or

"Middle Easterners, do you see yourselves as closer to Caucasians or to Europeans?

I'm really curious about your opinions.

Mike1
07-29-2016, 10:22 PM
This Pan Middle Eastern agenda hasn't existed since the "recent" Islamst radical political movements. No Armenian, Let alone Southern Russian, Georgian, Circassan would consider themselves the same label with a Jordanian or Saudi. This is the same kind of thinking when Finns and Japanese are grouped together by some strange fetish.

Tag Heuer
08-10-2016, 12:17 PM
Yes but North Caucasians are culturally closer to Middle Easterners than South Caucasians. And they seem to identify with them as well.

We are not closer to ME, and non of us identify ourselves as ME. Armenians and Azeris are the ones who might be clustered close to ME especiallt in terms of race and culture, but not Caucasians, that's just nonsence. Northcaucasians and Georgians are just Caucasians not Europeans nor Middle-Easterners, the only thing that makes Northcaucasians close to ME is the religion, but again there are some differences even in religion (like Chechens and Ingush call God - Dela/Däla, instead of saying Insha Allah we say Dala muq lah or Dal andale etc.; and Georgians, even those of them who are Christian also have some pagan elements in their religion, especially those who live close to Chechens - Khevsur, Pshav, Tush people, who still visit their heathen temples but call themselves Christians)

Tag Heuer
08-10-2016, 12:24 PM
Caucasus region is not uniform culturally.

Chechnya, people of Dagestan, Ingushetia are conservative muslims, in some instances radical.
Northern & southern Ossetia, Georgia, Armenia are Christian. Armenians speak an Indo-European language. Ossetians speak and Indo-Iranian language. Armenian culture is similar to east Anatolian.
Azerbaijan is a moderate muslim country.
There are north-west Caucasians such as Adyghe, who are probably have most similar physical appearance to Europeans in comparison to other people of Caucasus. Adyghe are also more similar to Europeans genetically.
How Adyg who are mostly G close to Europeans?
In terms of appearance, only Shapsugh people are mostly Pontic which make them look more Eastern European, especially like some Ukranians and Romanians; Kabardians, Cherkes, Mamkheg etc. are much "darker" and some of them might look like Armenians or/and Iranians, google Anjelika Nachesova and Murat Tkhagalegov both of them represent typical Circassians. If speaking about autosomal admixture Circassians in general have the same admix as Chechens and Daghestani peoples.

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 02:26 AM
We are not closer to ME, and non of us identify ourselves as ME. Armenians and Azeris are the ones who might be clustered close to ME especiallt in terms of race and culture, but not Caucasians, that's just nonsence. Northcaucasians and Georgians are just Caucasians not Europeans nor Middle-Easterners, the only thing that makes Northcaucasians close to ME is the religion, but again there are some differences even in religion (like Chechens and Ingush call God - Dela/Däla, instead of saying Insha Allah we say Dala muq lah or Dal andale etc.; and Georgians, even those of them who are Christian also have some pagan elements in their religion, especially those who live close to Chechens - Khevsur, Pshav, Tush people, who still visit their heathen temples but call themselves Christians)

That's not true. Genetically speaking, North Caucasians are genetically similar to South Caucasians, Persians, and even Afghans. They form their own cluster, but they are still very related to people popularly considered "middle eastern."

Culturally they're their own thing though.

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 02:28 AM
How Adyg who are mostly G close to Europeans?
In terms of appearance, only Shapsugh people are mostly Pontic which make them look more Eastern European, especially like some Ukranians and Romanians; Kabardians, Cherkes, Mamkheg etc. are much "darker" and some of them might look like Armenians or/and Iranians, google Anjelika Nachesova and Murat Tkhagalegov both of them represent typical Circassians. If speaking about autosomal admixture Circassians in general have the same admix as Chechens and Daghestani peoples.

Circassians are genetically close to other caucasians and Iranics, not Europeans. But they're geographically Europeans themselves, so you could argue that they are "genetically European" in the sense that their genetics are native to Europe.

Tag Heuer
08-16-2016, 01:44 PM
That's not true. Genetically speaking, North Caucasians are genetically similar to South Caucasians, Persians, and even Afghans. They form their own cluster, but they are still very related to people popularly considered "middle eastern."

Culturally they're their own thing though.

Genetically speaking, Chechens predominantly are J2. If speaking about autosomal background, the closest population outside the N. Caucasus to Chechens are Kurds (as it shows in Oracles, Kurds sometimes appear as a fourth population/second pop in Oracle-4, but may not show up at all). And it may be due to the theory that Chechens are believed to have Hurrian/Urartian ancestry. Majority of Hurrians got assimilated by Iranian-speaking tribes (Kurds) and Armenians, so there is no surprise that Kurds and Chechens are close to each other to some extent. And origins of Hurrians are still unknown, but again they were not ME/Persian/European as well.

but they are still very related to people popularly considered "middle eastern."
which doesn't mean we are ME. Language, culture, race - all are different and have nothing to do with Middle East.

Circassians are genetically close to other caucasians and Iranics, not Europeans. But they're geographically Europeans themselves, so you could argue that they are "genetically European" in the sense that their genetics are native to Europe.
All N. Caucasians are Europeans geographically.

Magnetic
08-16-2016, 01:55 PM
Circassians are genetically close to other caucasians and Iranics, not Europeans. But they're geographically Europeans themselves, so you could argue that they are "genetically European" in the sense that their genetics are native to Europe.

lol bro they are geographically european and most look european . only because they have pashtun in their oracle somewhere in the bottom at distance 346 it doesnt mean anything

caucasians are west asians . in fact they are THE west asians . all in all closer to europeans than middle east . but it is also not black and white ....a georgian is way closer to the balkans than to a saudi or yemeni ...but way closer to an assyrian , kurd , north iranian etc. than to a german

I dont think it is right to put them in any category . they are what they are : caucasians . and many seem to be proud of that which is good for them

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 05:02 PM
lol bro they are geographically european and most look european . only because they have pashtun in their oracle somewhere in the bottom at distance 346 it doesnt mean anything

caucasians are west asians . in fact they are THE west asians . all in all closer to europeans than middle east . but it is also not black and white ....a georgian is way closer to the balkans than to a saudi or yemeni ...but way closer to an assyrian , kurd , north iranian etc. than to a german

I dont think it is right to put them in any category . they are what they are : caucasians . and many seem to be proud of that which is good for them

Actually, in a Chechen oracle, pashtuns were in the top 10. Actually know what you're talking about before you speak. Pashtuns are mostly of CHG and CHG like Iranian neotholic which would make them similar.

And they look mostly like Europeans???? LOL have you ever been to the caucasus? I've been to Georgia at least and they look nothing like balkanites. They look like Armenians and Iranians mostly. And they're called "black" in Russia.


I agree that they are their own category but they are more like Middle Easterners than lime Europeans

Magnetic
08-16-2016, 05:06 PM
Actually, in a Chechen oracle, pashtuns were in the top 10. Actually know what you're talking about before you speak. Pashtuns are mostly of CHG and CHG like Iranian neotholic which woukd make them similar.



look at the results here from pashtun users and compare them with caucasus users . if you dont see strong differences then I dont know what to tell you

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 05:09 PM
look at the results here from pashtun users and compare them with caucasus users . if you dont see strong differences then I dont know what to tell you

They're not the same, but they're not that different either. You make it sound like we're comparing a Nigerian and German. And I HAVE looked at the oracle of north caucasians.

Magnetic
08-16-2016, 05:16 PM
They're not the same, but they're not that different either. You make it sound like we're comparing a Nigerian and German. And I HAVE looked at the oracle of north caucasians.

lol that was funny :D no I dont mean that there is as much difference as between nigerians and germans but there are still valid differences . the reason why there is some similarity is because of the CHG stuff but there are other admixes along with that which make the big differences . pashtuns are basically like caucasus + northern south asian in all calculators . and I would really like to see the chechen oracle with pashtun in the top 10 . not that I dont believe you but it is very odd because usually west asians dont score any population east of iran in the top 20 (unless the "west asian" person has some other admix)

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 05:20 PM
lol that was funny :D no I dont mean that there is as much difference as between nigerians and germans but there are still valid differences . the reason why there is some similarity is because of the CHG stuff but there are other admixes along with that which make the big differences . pashtuns are basically like caucasus + northern south asian in all calculators . and I would really like to see the chechen oracle with pashtun in the top 10 . not that I dont believe you but it is very odd because usually west asians dont score any population east of iran in the top 20 (unless the "west asian" person has some other admix)

It was on theapricity, which is down now. And pashtuns were modeled that way before the diacovery of iranian neo. What exactly are pashtuns mixed with that is different? Now that Iranian k6 exists, they only score 4-10% ASI/ASE, with most having 6-7%, and the rest of their DNA being natufian, and various hg like other west asians.


In fact, persians are genetically closer to pashtuns than to turks now, based on the recent calculator.

tippy
08-16-2016, 05:24 PM
Sorry where are you seeing Pashtuns scoring 6 -7% ASI/ASE? Kurds tend to score this or more, Tajiks about 15% and Pashtuns usually 20% or so. It varies on the calc but I've never seen them score 7%.

tippy
08-16-2016, 05:26 PM
Also you can't base your whole assessment of a group on the results of a single calculator. Especially a k6.

Magnetic
08-16-2016, 05:29 PM
Now that Iranian k6 exists, they only score ASI/ASE, with most having 6-7%, and the rest of their DNA being natufian, and various hg like other west asians.


only ? that is quite a decent amount for that calculator tbh.

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 05:32 PM
only ? that is quite a decent amount for that calculator tbh.

That's a little amount. What's your point??? Are you saying that 6% of ASE is going to automatically outweigh their 50-60% CHG like DNA and other HG DNAs?

Persians still definitely look far closer to Pashtuns now, even Kurds shifted towards pashtuns.

To give you a persepctive, persians and kurds score like 2-4% average ASE whereas pashtuns are 6-7%. You are farting over a 3% difference

Magnetic
08-16-2016, 05:34 PM
That's a little amount. What's your point??? Are you saying that 6% of ASE is going to automatically outweigh their 50-60% CHG like DNA and other HG DNAs?

that is not "a little amount" in that calculator . and no of course it doesnt outweigh the chg

btw. I am browsing the iran neolithic k6 thread right now and try to find pashtun results

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 05:36 PM
that is not "a little amount" in that calculator . and no of course it doesnt outweigh the chg

btw. I am browsing the iran neolithic k6 thread right now and try to find pashtun results

They are in there. They were in someones spreadsheet, but since it was editable, the reults were purposely changed by another user for some odd reason and made pashtuns look more east asian shifted.

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 05:38 PM
that is not "a little amount" in that calculator . and no of course it doesnt outweigh the chg

btw. I am browsing the iran neolithic k6 thread right now and try to find pashtun results

To give you a persepective, kurds and persians have 2-4% and are still near Georgians. Pashtuns have 6-7% so that is a 3% difference. Even caucasus populations themselves have >1% of ASE

It is really not a lot because that calculator separates the west eurasian dna from onge, so ase is basically straight up onge

Magnetic
08-16-2016, 05:45 PM
To give you a persepective, kurds and persians have 2-4% and are still near Georgians. Pashtuns have 6-7% so that is a 3% difference. Even caucasus populations themselves have >1% of ASE

It is really not a lot because that calculator separates the west eurasian dna from onge, so ase is basically straight up onge

found a pashtun users results . no 6-7% but 9% and his cousin even more http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8180-Post-Iran-Neolithic-K6-Results&p=178536&viewfull=1#post178536

do you have more pashtun results ? I am curious

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 05:46 PM
that is not "a little amount" in that calculator . and no of course it doesnt outweigh the chg

btw. I am browsing the iran neolithic k6 thread right now and try to find pashtun results

To make it easier for you

http://i.imgur.com/tVzNM5y.jpg

As you can see, pashtuns and afghan tajiks only have between 4-10% which 4% being the lowest, and 10 being the highest. 6-7% seems to be the average, whereas 3-5% is the average for Kurds and Persians, so not as different as you're insinuating. Pashtuns and Afghan Tajiks are overwhelmingly CHG like, so CHG like that CHG themselves appear on their recent oracles in the top 20.

Someone purposely edited the east asian percentages and made the one afghan tajik look 30% east asian.

surbakhunWeesste
08-16-2016, 05:47 PM
found a pashtun users results . no 6-7% but 9% and his cousin even more http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8180-Post-Iran-Neolithic-K6-Results&p=178536&viewfull=1#post178536

do you have more pashtun results ? I am curious

You cannot lump all Pashtuns, if you are getting nitty gritty then get your resources. Pashtuns are pretty diverse.

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 05:57 PM
You cannot lump all Pashtuns, if you are getting nitty gritty then get your resources. Pashtuns are pretty diverse.

Yes I can. They have already been found to be pretty genetically similar to each other all the way from Afghanistan to Pakistan. There are some tribes that are assimilated Punjabis in Pakistan, and one that is an assimilated Turkic tribe in Afghanistan, but that's it.

I don't buy the whole attempt of the west concluding that pashtuns have a bunch of origins. They don't, and that is just a poltical attempt for the media to make tensions worse in Afghanistan. Not that genetics matter, but people who are fighting don't need to be convinced that they are racially different when they are not, that just makes things worse. Pashtuns and Afghan Tajiks overlap genetically and even they hate each other. All those theories on our origins have been debunked. Pashtuns are one people. And Tajiks, Pamiris, Persians, Azeris, and Nuristanis are their brothers. Hazara are afghan too, despite their blood theyre afghans.

surbakhunWeesste
08-16-2016, 06:04 PM
Yes I can. They have already been found to be pretty genetically similar to each other all the way from Afghanistan to Pakistan. There are some tribes that are assimilated Punjabis in Pakistan, and one that is an assimilated Turkic tribe in Afghanistan, but that's it.

I don't buy the whole attemot of the west concluding that pashtuns have a bunch of origins. They don't, and that is just a poltical attempt for the media to make tensions worse in Afghanistan. Not that genetics matter, but people who are fighting don't need to be convinced that they are racially different when they are not, that just makes things worse. Pashtuns and Afghan Tajiks overlap genetically and even they hate each other. All those theories on our origins have been debunked. Pashtuns are one people.

by the way it was directed at the user Magnetic not you. Since you guys are discussing about the "3%" difference!

Pashtuns themselves have folklore regarding different origins, if you want to spread the pan Pashtun ideologies based on traditions that alright. However, the west has nothing to so with it when it comes to origins of Pashtuns: The tribal folklore has nothing to do with media, mind you most of these tribal people don't have access to western media /(technology in general), if you have traveled to Afghanistan you'd know it.

Magnetic
08-16-2016, 06:05 PM
hmm weird I score 0.01 ....

this calculator should be up on gedmatch because of possible error

Magnetic
08-16-2016, 06:05 PM
You cannot lump all Pashtuns, if you are getting nitty gritty then get your resources. Pashtuns are pretty diverse.

that wasnt my intention . he was just the only example I could get

Shaikorth
08-16-2016, 06:16 PM
Kurd, if you happen to come across this thread this please run a D-stat for Chimp Georgian Pashtun Modern_West_European

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 06:24 PM
by the way it was directed at the user Magnetic not you. Since you guys are discussing about the "3%" difference!

Pashtuns themselves have folklore regarding different origins, if you want to spread the pan Pashtun ideologies based on traditions that alright. However, the west has nothing to so with it when it comes to origins of Pashtuns: The tribal folklore has nothing to do with media, mind you most of these tribal people don't have access to western media /(technology in general), if you have traveled to Afghanistan you'd know it.

Yes, but the west is often obsessed with it themselves, trying to claim different groups of Afghans, even going as far as going to Afghanistan and telling these people their tales. Like the whole lost tribes of Israel thing, and the whole "lost children of alexander the great" thing with other tribes. It is complete bogus.

We have DNA samples from various tribes of Pashtuns, both in Afghanistan and Pakistan and they're genetically similar to each other along with Pamiri Tajiks, Afghan Tajiks, Nuristanis, etc.

Most afghans seem to believe they have greek or israeli origins, but with a base that is mostly "aryan" or "arian."

vettor
08-16-2016, 06:25 PM
I think the term middle-eastern should apply in areas north of the zargos mountain only after the fall of the Roman empire ...........IF at all

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 06:29 PM
I think the term middle-eastern should apply in areas north of the zargos mountain only after the fall of the Roman empire ...........IF at all

I honestly don't think it should be a term at all. West Eurasia includes all of the "Middle East" and some of "Central Asia," with "Europe," geographically speaking.

Culturally speaking, west asia is a huge mess.

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 06:31 PM
Kurd, if you happen to come across this thread this please run a D-stat for Chimp Georgian Pashtun Modern_West_European

Georgians and Pashtuns would be far closer to each other genetically than to a chimp obviously, and still pretty closer to each other than to a modern west euro.

Shaikorth
08-16-2016, 06:34 PM
Georgians and Pashtuns would be far closer to each other genetically than to a chimp obviously, and still pretty closer to each other than to a modern west euro.


We'll see. Lets say the euro in the D-stat is English or French.

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 06:36 PM
We'll see. Lets say the euro in the D-stat is English or French.

Definitely closer to Pashtuns. No question honestly. Pashtuns and Georgians are both overwhelmingly CHG like, and I think pashtuns have more WHG like components than they do based on the recent calculator as well. Plus Pashtuns and Persians are pretty genetically close based on the recent Iranian k6 results, and I saw Georgians in Persians top 10.

Shaikorth
08-16-2016, 06:41 PM
Lets wait and see. But remember, the D-stat is a formal test and admixture calculators are not. If they're in conflict, D-stats win out.

surbakhunWeesste
08-16-2016, 06:42 PM
Yes, but the west is often obsessed with it themselves, trying to claim different groups of Afghans, even going as far as going to Afghanistan and telling these people their tales. Like the whole lost tribes of Israel thing, and the whole "lost children of alexander the great" thing with other tribes. It is complete bogus.

We have DNA samples from various tribes of Pashtuns, both in Afghanistan and Pakistan and they're genetically similar to each other along with Pamiri Tajiks, Afghan Tajiks, Nuristanis, etc.

Most afghans seem to believe they have greek or israeli origins, but with a base that is mostly "aryan" or "arian."


Well, the genetic similarity between Pashtuns varies. You being a Pashtun probably already know that we have tribal feuds. They didn’t even wanna marry amongst certain Sarbans let alone Bettanis... For example, amongst Durranis we have something called Zirak and Panjpai. Ziraks don’t marry panjpais because umm you can say they are “racist”, it was a fact and till now that sort of creeds are in practice.

Afghan tajiks are as diverse actually even more diverse than Pashtuns, you’d find a tajik with heavy East Eurasian and another with much less East Eurasian, You seem to be stockpiling everything, I find it uncanny.

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 06:44 PM
Lets wait and see. But remember, the D-stat is a formal test and admixture calculators are not. If they're in conflict, D-stats win out.

How are D-stats more accurate? And don't they practically mean the same thing. What in the world makes you think Georgians are closer to English people to Pashtuns? That is as crazy as saying Azeris are closer to Brits than to Pashtuns.

Kurd already had a D stat on pashtuns and they were closest to Kurds, Finns, Russians, Chechens, and Iranians i think. But that was awhile ago.

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 06:47 PM
Well, the genetic similarity between Pashtuns varies. You being a Pashtun probably already know that we have tribal feuds. They didn’t even wanna marry amongst certain Sarbans let alone Bettanis... For example, amongst Durranis we have something called Zirak and Panjpai. Ziraks don’t marry panjpais because umm you can say they are “racist”, it was a fact and till now that sort of creeds are in practice.

Afghan tajiks are as diverse actually even more diverse than Pashtuns, you’d find a tajik with heavy East Eurasian and another with much less East Eurasian, You seem to be stockpiling everything, I find it uncanny.

You're talking about recent. Before we formed our tribal identities, we all lived in the same spot and had the same ancestors. Afghanistan is such a small, small country. I'm not stockpilling anything, I'm a realist. You're argument is that pashtuns as an identity are tribal, when I'm talking about bronze and iron age populations, when pashtuns didnt even exist as a people.

surbakhunWeesste
08-16-2016, 06:51 PM
Definitely closer to Pashtuns. No question honestly. Pashtuns and Georgians are both overwhelmingly CHG like, and I think pashtuns have more WHG like components than they do based on the recent calculator as well. Plus Pashtuns and Persians are pretty genetically close based on the recent Iranian k6 results, and I saw Georgians in Persians top 10.

You mean certain Pashtuns, because not all Pashtuns score high CHG, and most of it is Iran_Neolitic anyways.

Admixture tools were basically generated to figure out genetic variations; diseases etc. Dstats is a formal test of admixture.It provides evidence for admixture and shows gene flow.

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 06:55 PM
You mean certain Pashtuns, because not all Pashtuns score high CHG, and most of it is Iran_Neolitic anyways.

Admixture tools were basically generated to figuring out genetic variations; diseases etc. Dstats is a formal test of admixture.It provides evidence for admixture and shows gene flow.

Pashtuns score pretty much high CHG. And Iranian Neotholic itself is very CHG like. Just because it was in a different set of mountains doesn't change what it is. Pashtuns themselves are genetically close to CHGs, they get them in their top 20 oracles.

Pashtuns are pretty similar, I dont get your obsession with diffrientiating them.

And i'd argue that there was far more gene flow from Georgia to Afghanistan or vice versa than with England.

But Kurd already has D-stats on pashtuns and theyre close to Pamiri Tajiks, Russians, and Finns, based on that. One even had French in it which is odd.

surbakhunWeesste
08-16-2016, 07:00 PM
You're talking about recent. Before we formed our tribal identities, we all lived in the same spot and had the same ancestors. Afghanistan is such a small, small country. I'm not stockpilling anything, I'm a realist. You're argument is that pashtuns as an identity are tribal, when I'm talking about bronze and iron age populations, when pashtuns didnt even exist as a people.

What are you constructing your statement on?
I don’t see any indication of a realist in you! I see certain inquisitiveness in your questions just a tadbit.
Small doesn’t mean anything. An analogy: a cell is microscopic and just try deciphering what it expresses. So what’s your point with Afghanistan being small? There are countries that are smaller than Afghanistan embodying triple digit languages and ethnic diversity.
You seem to be blindfolded with your pan pashtunism, heck not all of us have to confirm with it.

Why do you think we have so many YDNAS if all Pashtuns were the same?
How am I obsessed? You on the other hand are misusing and misreading scientific tools to propagate your thoughts. For example you don't even know how admixture and dstats work, I rest my point.

Shaikorth
08-16-2016, 07:11 PM
How are D-stats more accurate? And don't they practically mean the same thing. What in the world makes you think Georgians are closer to English people to Pashtuns? That is as crazy as saying Azeris are closer to Brits than to Pashtuns.

Kurd already had a D stat on pashtuns and they were closest to Kurds, Finns, Russians, Chechens, and Iranians i think. But that was awhile ago.

Abkhazians and Armenians should be the closest living relatives of Georgians. ADMIXTURE clusters are not real ancestral components and are defined by recent drift, so oracle results are not true measures of genomewide similarity and there is overlap and variation components do not show. This is something that you'll hear from anyone who has experience with formal tests and ADMIXTURE, like Kurd. D-stats measure genomewide similarity using an outgroup, IBS and ASD are raw pairwise similarity number. D-stats are what modern papers usually use to determine affinity, and alongside IBS and ASD are much more accurate measures of genomewide similarity than ADMIXTURE.

Kurd's D-stats with Pashtuns are pretty much correct, but he's also ran D-stats on Kurds. Their closest matches are Armenians, Greeks, Sardinians, Trabzon Turks and the like. So while Kurds are one of the populations Pashtuns share the most drift with, it doesn't go the other way.

jesus
08-16-2016, 07:13 PM
Pashtuns score pretty much high CHG. And Iranian Neotholic itself is very CHG like. Just because it was in a different set of mountains doesn't change what it is. Pashtuns themselves are genetically close to CHGs, they get them in their top 20 oracles.

Pashtuns are pretty similar, I dont get your obsession with diffrientiating them.

And i'd argue that there was far more gene flow from Georgia to Afghanistan or vice versa than with England.

But Kurd already has D-stats on pashtuns and theyre close to Pamiri Tajiks, Russians, and Finns, based on that. One even had French in it which is odd.

There are many population that score similar or higher " CHG " in admixture runs. From deep into south Asia, to west Asia/the caucasus region. The vast majority of that " CHG " in south asians is actually Iranian Neolithic. So you're basically saying that South Asians, west asians and Caucasians are the same group because of shared CHG/Iranian neolithic ? Amazing.

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 07:14 PM
What are you constructing your statement on?
I don’t see any indication of a realist on you! I see certain inquisitiveness in your questions just a tadbit.
Small doesn’t mean anything. An analogy: a cell is microscopic and just try deciphering what it expresses. So what’s your point with Afghanistan being small? There are countries that are smaller than Afghanistan embodying triple digit languages and ethnic diversity.
You seem to be blindfolded with your pan pashtunism, heck not all of us have to confirm with it.

Why do you think we have so many YDNAS if all Pashtuns were the same?
How am I obsessed? You on the other hand are misusing and misreading scientific tools to propagate your thoughts. For example you don't even know how admixture and dstats work, I rest my point.

First you say that since pashtuns are tribal, certain tribes wont intermarry. Which is A) False (I'm half one tribe and half another). B) We are talking about our true ancestral populations.

Then you argue that there are multiple y dnas in pashtuns, when despite that there is still a majority y dna which encompasses 58-60% pashtuns. Using your logic, every ethnicity is different from their own members lol.

There are even 1st cousins who have different y-dnas and siblings who have different looks.

In my family my oldest sister, mom, and I have "white" features and I have brown hair and very fair skin whereas my father and other sister look more textbook "middle eastern." phenotype and haplogroup do not determine origin.

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 07:17 PM
There are many population that score similar or higher " CHG " in admixture runs. From deep into south Asia, to west Asia/the caucasus region. The vast majority of that " CHG " in south asians is actually Iranian Neolithic. So you're basically saying that South Asians, west asians and Caucasians are the same group because of shared CHG/Iranian neolithic ? Amazing.

1) Afghans arent south asians
2) all CHG like components peak the most in caucasians, then in pashtuns and balochis, not south asians proper
3) a good portion of it still is straight up CHG
4) Iranian Neotholic and CHG are very genetically and geographically close, meaning they shared loads of ancestry and genes.
6) I never said they were the same, just very similar.
7) I see people on this site use oracles all the time for other ethnicities to make a statement, but when it comes to pashtuns, we have to go into their D stats. Why?

jesus
08-16-2016, 07:20 PM
First you say that since pashtuns are tribal, certain tribes wont intermarry. Which is A) False (I'm half one tribe and half another). B) We are talking about our true ancestral populations.

Then you argue that there are multiple y dnas in pashtuns, when despite that there is still a majority y dna which encompasses 58-60% pashtuns. Using your logic, every ethnicity is different from their own members lol.

There are even 1st cousins who have different y-dnas and siblings who have different looks.


Hmmm then Pashtuns, Kyrgyz, Altai groups and a ton of south Asian groups are the same because of high R1a1a frequencies ?

Those first cousins need to ask their parents some serious questions, especially if they were paternally related :D

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 07:21 PM
Abkhazians and Armenians should be the closest living relatives of Georgians. ADMIXTURE clusters are not real ancestral components and are defined by recent drift, so oracle results are not true measures of genomewide similarity and there is overlap and variation components do not show. This is something that you'll hear from anyone who has experience with formal tests and ADMIXTURE, like Kurd. D-stats measure genomewide similarity using an outgroup, IBS and ASD are raw pairwise similarity number. D-stats are what modern papers usually use to determine affinity, and alongside IBS and ASD are much more accurate measures of genomewide similarity than ADMIXTURE.

Kurd's D-stats with Pashtuns are pretty much correct, but he's also ran D-stats on Kurds. Their closest matches are Armenians, Greeks, Sardinians, Trabzon Turks and the like. So while Kurds are one of the populations Pashtuns share the most drift with, it doesn't go the other way.

Of his d stats of pashtuns are correct, then pashtuns are genetically closest to Tajiks (believable), Russians (hmm maybe), Finns (wtf???), and French (the most wtf). I dont believe that.

surbakhunWeesste
08-16-2016, 07:23 PM
First you say that since pashtuns are tribal, certain tribes wont intermarry. Which is A) False (I'm half one tribe and half another). B) We are talking about our true ancestral populations.

Then you argue that there are multiple y dnas in pashtuns, when despite that there is still a majority y dna which encompasses 58-60% pashtuns. Using your logic, every ethnicity is different from their own members lol.

There are even 1st cousins who have different y-dnas and siblings who have different looks.

In my family my oldest sister, mom, and I have "white" features and I have brown hair and very fair skin whereas my father and other sister look more textbook "middle eastern." phenotype and haplogroup do not determine origin.

You ain't a tribal Pashtun, based on your facts your family is probably Kabuli? or from the vicinity and seems like you have never been to Western/Southern Afghanistan. You don't seem to understand Tribalism either.
There are hindkowans/seriakis who are Pashtuns, that doesn't mean they shared the same recent ancestor with say a tribal Zirak.

You seem to be obsessed with HOW WHITE you look, almost in every other post you'd never fail to mention it. Now, that's a topic for LMAO.

Shaikorth
08-16-2016, 07:27 PM
Of his d stats of pashtuns are correct, then pashtuns are genetically closest to Tajiks (believable), Russians (hmm maybe), Finns (wtf???), and French (the most wtf). I dont believe that.

In his own words the tests showed "dstat evidence that Pashtuns share the most TOTAL genetic drift with Kurds, Balochis, Georgians, Chechens, and NE Europeans". D-stats can be replicated, so you can ask someone else with Pashtun samples, like Davidski from Eurogenes, to repeat the tests if you want to contest the result.

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 07:29 PM
You ain't a tribal Pashtun, based on your facts your family is probably Kabuli? or from the vicinity and seems like you have never been to Western/Southern Afghanistan. You don't seem to understand Tribalism either.
There are hindkowans/seriakis who are Pashtuns, that doesn't mean they shared the same recent ancestor with say a tribal Zirak.

You seem to be obsessed with HOW WHITE you look, almost in every other post you'd never fail to mention it. Now, that's a topic for LMAO.

Im not obsessed with it at all. I was just mentioning how pashtuns have different looks within different families. And haplogroups dont determine anything.

That was literally the first time I desrcibed my phenotype on here. Whats your point?

I am a pashtun. Are you an afghan, or are you another annoying Indian trying to tell me about my culture?

jesus
08-16-2016, 07:30 PM
1) Afghans arent south asians
2) all CHG like components peak the most in caucasians, then in pashtuns and balochis, not south asians proper
3) a good portion of it still is straight up CHG
4) Iranian Neotholic and CHG are very genetically and geographically close, meaning they shared loads of ancestry and genes.
6) I never said they were the same, just very similar.
7) I see people on this site use oracles all the time for other ethnicities to make a statement, but when it comes to pashtuns, we have to go into their D stats. Why?

1- I didn't say that Afghans are south Asians or not, no need to jump to conclusions.
2- Some North Indian groups get similar CHG to afghans. so what ? some get similar Iranian Neolithic as well.
4,6- Nobody denied that.

7- Because D stats are often more accurate. Oracles are often useless in most GEDmatch tools, due to many reasons.

Iranian farmer in Near east k13:

Pashtun Afghan: 36.9
GujaratiA: 36.94
GujaratiB: 36.94
GujaratiC: 36.26
GujaratiD: 38.16

Those Gujaratis aren't proper south Asians ? btw D and C are low castes(as native as you can get). You share a lot of Iranian Neolithic ancestry with them, why aren't you focusing on them instead of caucasians ? Isn't this the main idea behind your points, shared CHG/Iran Neolithic ancestry ?

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 07:34 PM
In his own words the tests showed "dstat evidence that Pashtuns share the most TOTAL genetic drift with Kurds, Balochis, Georgians, Chechens, and NE Europeans". D-stats can be replicated, so you can ask someone else with Pashtun samples, like Davidski from Eurogenes, to repeat the tests if you want to contest the result.

But Russians and Finns ARE NE Europeans. And that above statement is not what he said about pashtuns. He left charts about who were the most closest to pashtuns based on d stats and here are the results:

http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p633/drcypriot084/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2016-08-16-15-25-00-1_zps1l6xgfip.png (http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/drcypriot084/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2016-08-16-15-25-00-1_zps1l6xgfip.png.html)

http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p633/drcypriot084/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2016-08-16-15-24-48-1_zps40fmvzao.png (http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/drcypriot084/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2016-08-16-15-24-48-1_zps40fmvzao.png.html)

http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p633/drcypriot084/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2016-08-16-15-23-51-1_zpsr5ad1pxu.png (http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/drcypriot084/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2016-08-16-15-23-51-1_zpsr5ad1pxu.png.html)

surbakhunWeesste
08-16-2016, 07:35 PM
[QUOTE]Im not obsessed with it at all. I was just mentioning how pashtuns have different looks within different families. And haplogroups dont determine anything.


Didn't you say all Pashtuns have the same ancestor? You are contradicting your own point.


That was literally the first time I desrcibed my phenotype on here. Whats your point?

Nope, you have posted somewhere in this forum regarding your WHITE phenotype.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8078-Ashkenazi-Jews-are-NOT-European-or-white&p=174858&viewfull=1#post174858

Btw why are you putting words in my mouth, when did I mention anything about phenotype in the first place?


I am a pashtun. Are you an afghan, or are you another annoying Indian trying to tell me about my culture?
Why are you calling Indians annoying?Don't see any Indian member even replying to you!

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 07:37 PM
Hmmm then Pashtuns, Kyrgyz, Altai groups and a ton of south Asian groups are the same because of high R1a1a frequencies ?

Those first cousins need to ask their parents some serious questions, especially if they were paternally related :D
Are you nuts? It is very possible for cousins to not have either of the same haplogroups. And when did I ever say that haplogroup means relation? I didnt. I just said most pashtuns have the same y dna

23andme:
https://customercare.23andme.com/hc/en-us/articles/202906920-Why-is-my-haplogroup-different-from-a-family-member-s-

Shaikorth
08-16-2016, 07:38 PM
But Russians and Finns ARE NE Europeans. And that above statement is not what he said about pashtuns. He left charts about who were the most closest to pashtuns based on d stats and here are the results:


Isn't it? (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7123-Pashtun-deep-ancestry-results-using-Dstats&p=155939&viewfull=1#post155939)

And of course they are NE Europeans. If Kurd had put Ukrainians or something in the test they would have been up there too.

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 07:40 PM
[QUOTE=MyAnthropologies;180072]

Didn't you say all Pashtuns have the same ancestor? You are contradicting your own point.



Nope, you have posted somewhere in this forum regarding your WHITE phenotype.


Why are you calling Indians annoying?Don't see any Indian member even replying to you!

What am I contradicting? Nothing. What you say makes no sense lmfao. Look I'm not trying to start a feud with you but you make pashtuns sound like they're two different tribes of pygmy. They are all related.

And no, I have never brought it up unless it was relevant. Does it make you insecure or something when it is relevant.

And oh, you know what I mean. On lots of anthropology forums, Indians troll afghans, many of which try to school afghans on their own culture. So many join pashtunforums doing the same thing as well.

jesus
08-16-2016, 07:41 PM
Are you nuts? It is very possible for cousins to not have either of the same haplogroups. And when did I ever say that haplogroup means relation? I didnt. I just said most pashtuns have the same y dna

23andme:
https://customercare.23andme.com/hc/en-us/articles/202906920-Why-is-my-haplogroup-different-from-a-family-member-s-


You gotta read your sources before you post and call others " nuts " :D


In addition, all sons inherit their Y chromosomes from their biological fathers; a father and his son therefore share a Y chromosome or paternal haplogroup. Any set of males who share a common male ancestor (that is, brothers, paternal half-brothers, male paternal cousins) have the same haplogroup.

surbakhunWeesste
08-16-2016, 07:44 PM
What am I contradicting? Nothing. What you say makes no sense lmfao. Look I'm not trying to start a feud with you but you make pashtuns sound like they're two different tribes of pygmy. They are all related.

And no, I have never brought it up unless it was relevant. Does it make you insecure or something when it is relevant.

And oh, you know what I mean. On lots of anthropology forums, Indians troll afghans, many of which try to school afghans on their own culture. So many join pashtunforums doing the same thing as well.


Your phenotype has zilch relevance to any thread in this forum other than "post your pic thread" which is just there for fun. This ain't a race board nor a 'phenotype' forum.

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 07:53 PM
Isn't it? (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7123-Pashtun-deep-ancestry-results-using-Dstats&p=155939&viewfull=1#post155939)

And of course they are NE Europeans. If Kurd had put Ukrainians or something in the test they would have been up there too.

Really? Then why did he claim "The table is sorted with the most similar to Pashtun 12 to least similar.

Before placing this chart:

http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p633/drcypriot084/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2016-08-16-15-23-51-1_zpsr5ad1pxu.png (http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/drcypriot084/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2016-08-16-15-23-51-1_zpsr5ad1pxu.png.html)

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 07:57 PM
You gotta read your sources before you post and call others " nuts " :D

Keyword: male paternal cousins.

Not:

- Female paternal cousins
- male maternal cousins
- female maternal cousins

And with mtdna, only people with the same mom have the same mtdna, so it's missing a lotnof relatives.

Shaikorth
08-16-2016, 07:58 PM
Really? Then why did he claim "The table is sorted with the most similar to Pashtun 12 to least similar.

Before placing this chart:


Assume he's run additional tests that he didn't post. There are no Georgians or Chechens on that list but it isn't hard to approximate their placement even without running the test, and I'm quite sure he's run it.

surbakhunWeesste
08-16-2016, 08:03 PM
Keyword: male paternal cousins.

Not:

- Female paternal cousins
- male maternal cousins
- female maternal cousins

And with mtdna, only people with the same mom have the same mtdna, so it's missing a lotnof relatives.

Then you are referring to all cousins via marriage, in that case if a Swede marries a Pakistani, then the descendants would have both Swedish and Pakistani relative/cousin, that's not the same as narrowed down lineage that can be traced via haplogroups courtesy endogamy...
There are Pathans in India, they are equally Pashtuns then and even in Bangladesh and elsewhere since only their admixture would look diluted but they are perhaps still Pashtun at heart.

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 08:04 PM
Assume he's run additional tests that he didn't post. There are no Georgians or Chechens on that list but it isn't hard to approximate their placement even without running the test, and I'm quite sure he's run it.

Azeris are on there though, and I'm pretty damn sure they are close genetically to Georgians

I also fail to see how it is true that admixture calculators mean nothing, when both georgians and pashtuns primarily come from a population that share similar genes to a strong extent. They didn't just magically become genetically similar out of nowhere. They clearly share ancestry. These d stats seem sketchy.

And he didnt mention anything about running other tests, nor did he on the websites he posted the same topic to after that. He used the same charts on other sites too. You just seem to keep with what fits your narrative.

jesus
08-16-2016, 08:04 PM
Keyword: male paternal cousins.

Not:

- Female paternal cousins
- male maternal cousins
- female maternal cousins

And with mtdna, only people with the same mom have the same mtdna, so it's missing a lotnof relatives.

Re-read my original post.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7913-Caucasians-do-you-see-yourselves-as-closer-to-Europeans-or-to-Middle-Easterners&p=180065&viewfull=1#post180065

Female paternal cousins, male maternal cousins, female maternal cousins are useless in determining ancestry in Pashtun culture anyways. only the direct paternal line (that you share with your paternal male cousins) matters in that culture.

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 08:05 PM
Then you are referring to all cousins via marriage, in that case if a Swede marries a Pakistani, then the descendants would have a Swedish and Pakistani relative/cousin, that's not the same as narrowed down lineage that can be traced via haplogroups and endogamy.

No. If they are the same ethnicity from the maternal side, it still wouldnt catch it.

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 08:07 PM
Re-read my original post.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7913-Caucasians-do-you-see-yourselves-as-closer-to-Europeans-or-to-Middle-Easterners&p=180065&viewfull=1#post180065

Still. Haplogroups are not that important. And the other guy is claiming that pashtuns share genetic drift with the people they share their haplogroup with lol.

And that still doesnr change their genetic make up

Shaikorth
08-16-2016, 08:28 PM
Azeris are on there though, and I'm pretty damn sure they are close genetically to Georgians

I also fail to see how it is true that admixture calculators mean nothing, when both georgians and pashtuns primarily come from a population that share similar genes to a strong extent. They didn't just magically become genetically similar out of nowhere. They clearly share ancestry. These d stats seem sketchy.

And he didnt mention anything about running other tests, nor did he on the websites he posted the same topic to after that. He used the same charts on other sites too. You just seem to keep with what fits your narrative.

Azeris aren't as good proxy for Georgians as Armenians, and even they're not perfect. Kurd can answer whether he's done that Chechen/Georgian comparison but lets compare ASD with Georgians.

Georgian-Armenian 0.23313
Georgian-Tuscan 0.23472

Georgians are closer to Armenians than Tuscans, naturally. But do you want to make guesses about how a very high Iran_N population southeast of the Caspian, like Balochi, score?

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 08:40 PM
Azeris aren't as good proxy for Georgians as Armenians, and even they're not perfect. Kurd can answer whether he's done that Chechen/Georgian comparison but lets compare ASD with Georgians.

Georgian-Armenian 0.23313
Georgian-Tuscan 0.23472

Georgians are closer to Armenians than Tuscans, naturally. But do you want to make guesses about how a very high Iran_N population southeast of the Caspian, like Balochi, score?

Where are you getting your numbers from? Georgians shouldn't be genetically closer to English people let alone any "Europeans" than to Pashtuns. Unless North Caucasians count as Europeans, then no. Even Greek Islanders shift towards Iranians and Afghans using the new results vs Sicilians who shift towards Arabs. Georgians wouldn't be close to Europeans.


Also, Armenians showed up on his chart either way as well.

Shaikorth
08-16-2016, 08:48 PM
Where are you getting your numbers from? Georgians shouldn't be genetically closer to English people let alone any "Europeans" than to Pashtuns. Unless North Caucasians count as Europeans, then no. Even Greek Islanders shift towards Iranians and Afghans using the new results vs Sicilians who shift towards Arabs. Georgians wouldn't be close to Europeans.


Also, Armenians showed up on his chart either way as well.

My numbers are from Behar et al. 2010 supplements.

If by new results you mean Kurd's Ancient Eurasian K6 calculator's oracle or something, he will be the first to tell you it won't trump D-stats or ASD.

Kurd_C3 was the Kurd Pashtuns were close to in the D-stat test. But here you can see some D-stats about who Kurd_C3 is close to (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6330-Kurd-Genetics-using-Formal-Stats&p=139553&viewfull=1#post139553).

Coldmountains
08-16-2016, 08:53 PM
[QUOTE=surbakhunWeesste;180078]

What am I contradicting? Nothing. What you say makes no sense lmfao. Look I'm not trying to start a feud with you but you make pashtuns sound like they're two different tribes of pygmy. They are all related.

And no, I have never brought it up unless it was relevant. Does it make you insecure or something when it is relevant.

And oh, you know what I mean. On lots of anthropology forums, Indians troll afghans, many of which try to school afghans on their own culture. So many join pashtunforums doing the same thing as well.

I am also not so convinced by some d-stat results. Some dstats showed Kalash and Pashtuns closer to Lithuanians than to Iranians/Persians what is something I don't consider realistic at all and which makes me very sceptical. Maybe I am misunderstanding how dstat results are interpreted. Anyways Pashtuns are from a genetic point of view somewhere between Pamiri, Baluch and Punjabies/NW Indians. Afghanistan and obviously also Pakistan was since the Bronze Age an Indo-Iranian frontier zone were both Iranics and Indo-Aryans lived. Pashtuns have south asian (genetic) elements and in pre-Islamic times most of Afghanistan had deep cultural links with India. I don't see how this means that Afghans are "Indians" and Pashtuns are in the end definetly East Iranics but this does not mean that no Pashtuns are clustering with NW Indians. You really should not take serious what some nationalists write on the internet.

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 09:02 PM
[QUOTE=MyAnthropologies;180082]

I am also not so convinced by some d-stat results. Some dstats showed Kalash and Pashtuns closer to Lithuanians than to Iranians/Persians what is something I don't consider realistic at all and which makes me very sceptical. Maybe I am misunderstanding how dstat results are interpreted. Anyways Pashtuns are from a genetic point of view somewhere between Pamiri, Baluch and Punjabies/NW Indians. Afghanistan and obviously also Pakistan was since the Bronze Age an Indo-Iranian frontier zone were both Iranics and Indo-Aryans lived. Pashtuns have south asian (genetic) elements and in pre-Islamic times most of Afghanistan had deep cultural links with India. I don't see how this means that Afghans are "Indians" and Pashtuns are in the end definetly East Iranics but this does not mean that no Pashtuns are clustering with NW Indians. You really should not take serious what some nationalists write on the internet.

Pashtuns from afghanistan are definitely closer to Pamiri Tajiks than to NW Indians. Theyre genetically in between Punjabis and Chechens according to most admixture results. Pamiris and Pashtuns are so similar (as are other Afghan Tajiks), that some pashtuns will get pamiri or tajik before pashtun on their oracle.


I also agree with you. There is no way in hell that I'm closer to Finn or a French person than to a persian or Georgian. Maybe Russians aren't genetically that far, but still farther than other iranics, caucasians, and nw indians.

surbakhunWeesste
08-16-2016, 09:05 PM
Pashtuns from afghanistan are definitely closer to Pamiri Tajiks than to NW Indians. Theyre genetically in between Punjabis and Chechens according to most admixture results. Pamiris and Pashtuns are so similar (as are other Afghan Tajiks), that some pashtuns will get pamiri or tajik before pashtun on their oracle.


I also agree with you. There is no way in hell that I'm closer to Finn or a French person than to a persian or Georgian. Maybe Russians aren't genetically that far, but still farther than other iranics, caucasians, and nw indians.

Some eastern afghan pashtuns are closer to Gujaratis,punjabis and other indian groups before Pamiris.

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 09:05 PM
Some eastern afghan pashtuns are closer to Gujaratis,punjabis and other indian groups before Pamiris.

Thats a lie. A paktia pashtun had pamiri tajik come up in his oracle before afghan pashtun even did.

MyAnthropologies
08-16-2016, 09:10 PM
Dude i wish if theapricity was running again so i get all the afghan and north caucasian oracles that were shared in threads there to clear bs claims here. There was a user there named philip jennings and he shared loads of pashtun, pamiri tajik, and caucasian oracles.

Kurd
08-16-2016, 09:23 PM
Kurd, if you happen to come across this thread this please run a D-stat for Chimp Georgian Pashtun Modern_West_European

It looks like I am walking into a hornet's nest here, but yeah, no problem. I will do (Chimp, X, Y, W European) and post tonight. I also think that I have done something similar, buried under some thread, and seem to recall it involved Chechens, Georgians, Pashtuns, Kurds, and others. I believe all those were close to each other, and should not be surprising as Chechens and SC Asians share comparable levels of Iran N and Steppe.

There is bound to be differences between ADMIXTURE and formal stats, since a component's allele frequencies are not strictly defined be the component references, but also to a large extent by any other samples scoring high in those components. Additionally, formals such as dstats are driven by old mutations to a considerable extent, simply because in D(A, B, C, Out) the accumulated mutations and drift in C post split of C from both A and B do not come into play, and D is determined by the difference in drift path lengths A-C vs B-C.

Also, high K ADMIXTURE calculators are very sensitive to recent drift. So for example, if say Kurds split into 2 groups, A and B, and we run samples of A and B through a high K ADMIXTURE calculator 2000 years from now, the results of A and B will be quite different, even if neither group mixed with anyone else for 2000 years. So if we define Kurds by A, then B will be similar to Kurds, but not the same, and B can go by a different name. Reason for the difference of course being random mutations + drift due to founder effect (I am assuming selective mutations are the same for A and B, because they live close to each other)

My recent K6 calculators minimize differences between groups, because at K=6 components are differentiated by more long term drift and mutations.

With regards to Chechens and Kurds, one of my Iraqi Kurd samples tested with Geno 2.0, which unlike 23andMe and AncestryDNA, whose calculators are designed for geneological time periods (very recent drift), tests for older ancestral relationships. The results for the Kurd sample show Georgians and N Caucasians as its best references. The only difference is that the Kurd sample has a little more Central Asian and Arab, which is sort of expected based on history and geography.

http://i.imgur.com/o8EbXSh.png

surbakhunWeesste
08-16-2016, 09:26 PM
Thats a lie. A paktia pashtun had pamiri tajik come up in his oracle before afghan pashtun even did.

what's a lie?

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus_HG 42.28
2 South_Asian 29.69
3 European_HG 9.58
4 Anatolian_NF 6.29
5 Near_East 4.97
6 Siberian 3.26
7 Amerindian 2.48
8 Beringian 0.93
9 Oceanian 0.5
10 East_Asian 0.04

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Pakistan_Pashtun 5.3
2 Pathan 7.47
3 Punjabi_Jatt_Sikh 8.31
4 Afghan_Pashtun 8.94
5 Burusho 9.89
6 Haryana_Jatt 11.25
7 Sindhi 11.37
8 Kashmir 11.97
9 Punjabi_Jatt_Muslim 12.11
10 Balochi 12.66
11 Brahui 14.79
12 Makrani 15.2
13 UP_Muslim 17.21
14 Tajik_Pomiri 19.57
15 Gujarati 25.28
16 Chechen 26.89
17 Iranian 27.58
18 Uzbek 28.45
19 Kurdish 29.47
20 Bengali_Muslim 29.99

Shaikorth
08-16-2016, 09:30 PM
It looks like I am walking into a hornet's nest here, but yeah, no problem. I will do (Chimp, X, Y, W European) and post tonight. I also think that I have done something similar, buried under some thread, and seem to recall it involved Chechens, Georgians, Pashtuns, Kurds, and others. I believe all those were close to each other, and should not be surprising as Chechens and SC Asians share comparable levels of Iran N and Steppe.

There is bound to be differences between ADMIXTURE and formal stats, since a component's allele frequencies are not strictly defined be the component references, but also to a large extent by any other samples scoring high in those components. Additionally, formals such as dstats are driven by old mutations to a considerable extent, simply because in D(A, B, C, Out) the accumulated mutations and drift in C post split of C from both A and B do not come into play, and D is determined by the difference in drift path lengths A-C vs B-C.

Also, high K ADMIXTURE calculators are very sensitive to recent drift. So for example, if say Kurds split into 2 groups, A and B, and we run samples of A and B through a high K ADMIXTURE calculator 2000 years from now, the results of A and B will be quite different, even if neither group mixed with anyone else for 2000 years. So if we define Kurds by A, then B will be similar to Kurds, but not the same, and B can go by a different name. Reason for the difference of course being random mutations + drift due to founder effect (I am assuming selective mutations are the same for A and B, because they live close to each other)

My recent K6 calculators minimize differences between groups, because at K=6 components are differentiated by more long term drift and mutations.

With regards to Chechens and Kurds, one of my Iraqi Kurd samples tested with Geno 2.0, which unlike 23andMe and AncestryDNA, whose calculators are designed for geneological time periods (very recent drift), tests for older ancestral relationships. The results for the Kurd sample show Georgians and N Caucasians as its best references. The only difference is that the Kurd sample has a little more Central Asian and Arab, which is sort of expected based on history and geography.


Yeah, this is mostly about whether Caucasus peoples like Georgians and Chechens are more related to Europeans or to South-Central Asians. Their very closest relatives will of course be other Caucasus/North Mesopotamian populations. Since D-stats discard recent mutations but IBS doesn't you could also do an IBS comparison between Georgians and French and Georgians and Pashtuns to see how it compares to the D-stat result.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 01:43 AM
what's a lie?

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus_HG 42.28
2 South_Asian 29.69
3 European_HG 9.58
4 Anatolian_NF 6.29
5 Near_East 4.97
6 Siberian 3.26
7 Amerindian 2.48
8 Beringian 0.93
9 Oceanian 0.5
10 East_Asian 0.04

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Pakistan_Pashtun 5.3
2 Pathan 7.47
3 Punjabi_Jatt_Sikh 8.31
4 Afghan_Pashtun 8.94
5 Burusho 9.89
6 Haryana_Jatt 11.25
7 Sindhi 11.37
8 Kashmir 11.97
9 Punjabi_Jatt_Muslim 12.11
10 Balochi 12.66
11 Brahui 14.79
12 Makrani 15.2
13 UP_Muslim 17.21
14 Tajik_Pomiri 19.57
15 Gujarati 25.28
16 Chechen 26.89
17 Iranian 27.58
18 Uzbek 28.45
19 Kurdish 29.47
20 Bengali_Muslim 29.99

Which calculator was that? And looks like a pakistani pashtun. Again, a paktia pashtun scored closer to pamiris than to other pashtuns. Wait till theapricity comes back or if philip jennings comes by this.

You also claimed that it would score closer to gujuratis than to pamiris and even that one doesn't. Nobody is going to be genetically closer to an indian than to other non mongolian afghan pops. Indians are close, but not THAT close. I doubt any pashtun is closer to a punjabi than to another afghan pashtun, especially an afghan one. Especially considering the "Afghan Pashtun" on those calculators stems from eastern ones. Saying that a pashtun is genetically closer to a paki or indian than to other afghan pashtuns or to pamiri tajiks is a claim as obsurd as saying pashtuns are closer to lithuanians than to persians. Pashtuns look nothing like Indians, they look like other afghans, they share more history with other afghans than with anyone else outside the country, the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan is currently a border between former Afghan land, so they share a border with other Afghans basically, not real Indics. I'd also like to see his iranian k6 results. Im sure theyll be drastically different. No afghan scores 30% south asian blood, not even punjabis have 30%, thats probably what messed up the oracle, and now that we have a calculator with iranian neo, his oracle would look different.

MonkeyDLuffy
08-17-2016, 02:39 AM
So this is how pashtunforums feel like.

pegasus
08-17-2016, 03:38 AM
Thats a lie. A paktia pashtun had pamiri tajik come up in his oracle before afghan pashtun even did.

The ones from the NE part of the country are like that ie Kunar, Laghman, Nangarhar they seem to show affinity to Sindhis and upper caste NW South Asians, which given the presence of Dardic peoples and the history of that region makes sense . Pashtuns from the South or South Central ( Oruzgan) show affinity to Pamiri tajiks. I am not sure about Paktia , but the HGDP Pashtuns should be the same as that region is still part of Loy Paktia. You sound A LOT like Barnacle.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 03:45 AM
The ones from the NE part of the country are like that ie Kunar, Laghman, Nangarhar they seem to show affinity to Sindhis and upper caste NW South Asians, which given the presence of Dardic peoples and the history of that region makes sense . Pashtuns from the South or South Central ( Oruzgan) show affinity to Pamiri tajiks. I am not sure about Paktia , but the HGDP Pashtuns should be the same as that region is still part of Loy Paktia. You sound A LOT like Barnacle.

Nope. Paktia pashtuns were close to pamiris. Once theapricity is back up ill show you.

History with sindhis doesnt mean the population was replaced with sindhis lol. How come they dont look like sindhis but like other pashtuns and tajiks?

And idk who barnacle is

Also please explain how that oracle gave that pashtun higher south asian than punjabis score? Obviously that was the issue. No afghan pashtun is closer to a punjabi than to other afghan pashtuns. Bs. The average pashtun distance from a NW Indian is 18-20, which is like German - Spaniard distance, not close enough to make any pashtun closer to a paki.

If you really believe that you are either A) an Indian, or B ) very clueless.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 03:55 AM
So this is how pashtunforums feel like.

Yeah thanks to a lot of trolls who join the forums who arent even pashtuns but try to convince pashtuns that theyre indians.

surbakhunWeesste
08-17-2016, 03:58 AM
Which calculator was that? And looks like a pakistani pashtun. Again, a paktia pashtun scored closer to pamiris than to other pashtuns. Wait till theapricity comes back or if philip jennings comes by this.

You also claimed that it would score closer to gujuratis than to pamiris and even that one doesn't. Nobody is going to be genetically closer to an indian than to other non mongolian afghan pops. Indians are close, but not THAT close. I doubt any pashtun is closer to a punjabi than to another afghan pashtun, especially an afghan one. Especially considering the "Afghan Pashtun" on those calculators stems from eastern ones. Saying that a pashtun is genetically closer to a paki or indian than to other afghan pashtuns or to pamiri tajiks is a claim as obsurd as saying pashtuns are closer to lithuanians than to persians. Pashtuns look nothing like Indians, they look like other afghans, they share more history with other afghans than with anyone else outside the country, the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan is currently a border between former Afghan land, so they share a border with other Afghans basically, not real Indics. I'd also like to see his iranian k6 results. Im sure theyll be drastically different. No afghan scores 30% south asian blood, not even punjabis have 30%, thats probably what messed up the oracle, and now that we have a calculator with iranian neo, his oracle would look different.

Which Paktia pashtun you're talking about ? we only have one ghilzai from there(and he's different from non Ghilzai pashtuns from eastern Afghanistan). UP muslim is not proper south asian to you ? that person is closer to people from UP in central north India than Pamiris. And he's fully from Eastern Afghanistan.

Again, why are you bringing up phenotype/looks when it's totally irrelevant to the subject ?

surbakhunWeesste
08-17-2016, 04:01 AM
Yeah thanks to a lot of trolls who join the forums who arent even pashtuns but try to convince pashtuns that theyre indians.

Why don't you get tested, and why do you bring up Indians when no Indian even commented here(other than monkey, but you even brought up Indians before his post) ?

And what do you mean by your statement ? name those Pashtun fakers bro.

Kurd
08-17-2016, 04:03 AM
Yeah, this is mostly about whether Caucasus peoples like Georgians and Chechens are more related to Europeans or to South-Central Asians. Their very closest relatives will of course be other Caucasus/North Mesopotamian populations. Since D-stats discard recent mutations but IBS doesn't you could also do an IBS comparison between Georgians and French and Georgians and Pashtuns to see how it compares to the D-stat result.

Here are the stats using double outgroups to get absolute total drift. In cases with recent admixture between A and B in D (A, O, B, O) I believe recent drift would also get included in the calculation. The stats are sorted with most similar to Georgian and Chechen on top. Apparently, ASI in SC Asians, and elevated basal in Kurds may be having a significant effect on reducing the shared path lengths Kurd- Chechen/Georgian, or Pashtun/Balochi - Chechen/Georgian



POP
OUT
TARGET
OUT
D
Z
SNPs


French
Mbuti.DG
Chechen
Chimp
0.393
100
118109


Greek
Mbuti.DG
Chechen
Chimp
0.3928
100
118109


Scottish
Mbuti.DG
Chechen
Chimp
0.3925
100
118109


Albanian
Mbuti.DG
Chechen
Chimp
0.3922
100
118109


.Kurd_C3
Mbuti.DG
Chechen
Chimp
0.391
100
117699


.Kurd_C2
Mbuti.DG
Chechen
Chimp
0.3909
96
117615


.Znertu
Mbuti.DG
Chechen
Chimp
0.3909
94
117288


Spanish
Mbuti.DG
Chechen
Chimp
0.3895
100
118109


.Mfa
Mbuti.DG
Chechen
Chimp
0.3889
94
116101


Pathan
Mbuti.DG
Chechen
Chimp
0.3794
100
118109


Pashtun_Afghan
Mbuti.DG
Chechen
Chimp
0.3791
100
111215


Brahui
Mbuti.DG
Chechen
Chimp
0.3765
100
118109





POP
OUT
TARGET
OUT
D
Z
SNPs


.Znertu
Mbuti.DG
Georgian
Chimp
0.3934
95
117288


Greek
Mbuti.DG
Georgian
Chimp
0.3932
100
118109


Albanian
Mbuti.DG
Georgian
Chimp
0.3926
100
118109


.Kurd_C2
Mbuti.DG
Georgian
Chimp
0.3917
95
117615


.Kurd_C3
Mbuti.DG
Georgian
Chimp
0.3917
100
117699


French
Mbuti.DG
Georgian
Chimp
0.3913
100
118109


.Mfa
Mbuti.DG
Georgian
Chimp
0.3911
95
116101


Scottish
Mbuti.DG
Georgian
Chimp
0.3901
100
118109


Spanish
Mbuti.DG
Georgian
Chimp
0.3891
100
118109


Pathan
Mbuti.DG
Georgian
Chimp
0.3776
100
118109


Pashtun_Afghan
Mbuti.DG
Georgian
Chimp
0.3767
100
118110


Brahui
Mbuti.DG
Georgian
Chimp
0.376
100
118109

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 04:05 AM
Which Paktia pashtun you're talking about ? we only have one ghilzai from there(and he's different from non Ghilzai pashtuns from eastern Afghanistan). UP muslim is not proper south asian to you ? that person is closer to people from UP in central north India than Pamiris. And he's fully from Eastern Afghanistan.

Again, why are you bringing up phenotype/looks when it's totally irrelevant to the subject ?

Umm, no Afghanistan is completely closer to all parts of itself before to any part of India or indic people in terms of geography.

You claim "history" matters and about sindhis, when we are talking about admixture results and not populations. You make it sound like sindhis replaced the afghans and that area or something.

And phenotype does matter. It is pretty significant and worthy of a mention that eastern afghans look no different from most other pashtuns way way way more than they look like punjabis or sindhis.

You claiming that some Afghan Pashtuns are closer to freaking Indians than to other Pashtuns is ridiculous.

Why are you too afraid to touch up in the fact that that pashtun apparently scores a far far higher south asian percentage than the average punjabi does (punjabis score like 17% average). Clearly you're using an outdated calculator. Run thqt guy through Iranian k6 and im sure he will be closer to afghan tajiks

pegasus
08-17-2016, 04:06 AM
Nope. Paktia pashtuns were close to pamiris. Once theapricity is back up ill show you.

History with sindhis doesnt mean the population was replaced with sindhis lol.

And idk who barnacle is

I was talking about Pashtuns from the NE. HGDP Pashtuns are from Khurram Agency in Northern Pakistan, bordering Paktia, there is a group like Ormuri Pashtuns who do show affinity to Pamiri tajiks, I have not seen any Afghan Paktia samples.
Affinity does not mean a replacement, your missing the point completely.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 04:10 AM
Here are the stats using double outgroups to get absolute total drift. In cases with recent admixture between A and B in D (A, O, B, O) I believe recent drift would also get included in the calculation. The stats are sorted with most similar to Georgian and Chechen on top. Apparently, ASI in SC Asians, and elevated basal in Kurds may be having a significant effect on reducing the shared path lengths Kurd- Chechen/Georgian, or Pashtun/Balochi - Chechen/Georgian



POP
OUT
TARGET
OUT
D
Z
SNPs


French
Mbuti.DG
Chechen
Chimp
0.393
100
118109


Greek
Mbuti.DG
Chechen
Chimp
0.3928
100
118109


Scottish
Mbuti.DG
Chechen
Chimp
0.3925
100
118109


Albanian
Mbuti.DG
Chechen
Chimp
0.3922
100
118109


.Kurd_C3
Mbuti.DG
Chechen
Chimp
0.391
100
117699


.Kurd_C2
Mbuti.DG
Chechen
Chimp
0.3909
96
117615


.Znertu
Mbuti.DG
Chechen
Chimp
0.3909
94
117288


Spanish
Mbuti.DG
Chechen
Chimp
0.3895
100
118109


.Mfa
Mbuti.DG
Chechen
Chimp
0.3889
94
116101


Pathan
Mbuti.DG
Chechen
Chimp
0.3794
100
118109


Pashtun_Afghan
Mbuti.DG
Chechen
Chimp
0.3791
100
111215


Brahui
Mbuti.DG
Chechen
Chimp
0.3765
100
118109





POP
OUT
TARGET
OUT
D
Z
SNPs


.Znertu
Mbuti.DG
Georgian
Chimp
0.3934
95
117288


Greek
Mbuti.DG
Georgian
Chimp
0.3932
100
118109


Albanian
Mbuti.DG
Georgian
Chimp
0.3926
100
118109


.Kurd_C2
Mbuti.DG
Georgian
Chimp
0.3917
95
117615


.Kurd_C3
Mbuti.DG
Georgian
Chimp
0.3917
100
117699


French
Mbuti.DG
Georgian
Chimp
0.3913
100
118109


.Mfa
Mbuti.DG
Georgian
Chimp
0.3911
95
116101


Scottish
Mbuti.DG
Georgian
Chimp
0.3901
100
118109


Spanish
Mbuti.DG
Georgian
Chimp
0.3891
100
118109


Pathan
Mbuti.DG
Georgian
Chimp
0.3776
100
118109


Pashtun_Afghan
Mbuti.DG
Georgian
Chimp
0.3767
100
118110


Brahui
Mbuti.DG
Georgian
Chimp
0.376
100
118109



Thats gotta be impossible because if elevated ASI was the case, then "pathans" would not be closer to a chechen than an Afghan Pashtun is. Pathans are Pakistani and Indian pashtuns who are closer to pinjabis than to Afghan Pashtuns.

And the number of drift for the pashtun is lower than the number for the Europeans. A georgian or chechen is not closer to a scott than to a pashtun lmao.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 04:13 AM
I was talking about Pashtuns from the NE. HGDP Pashtuns are from Khurram Agency in Northern Pakistan, bordering Paktia, there is a group like Ormuri Pashtuns who do show affinity to Pamiri tajiks, I have not seen any Afghan Paktia samples.
Affinity does not mean a replacement, your missing the point completely.

I will show you the sample once TA is back up. Im a man of my words.

surbakhunWeesste
08-17-2016, 04:13 AM
1- Umm, no Afghanistan is completely closer to all parts of itself before to any part of India or indic people in terms of geography.

2- You claim "history" matters and about sindhis, when we are talking about admixture results and not populations. You make it sound like sindhis replaced the afghans and that area or something.

3- And phenotype does matter. It is pretty significant and worthy of a mention that eastern afghans look no different from most other pashtuns way way way more than they look like punjabis or sindhis.

4- You claiming that some Afghan Pashtuns are closer to freaking Indians than to other Pashtuns is ridiculous.

5- Why are you too afraid to touch up in the fact that that pashtun apparently scores a far far higher south asian percentage than the average punjabi does (punjabis score like 17% average). Clearly you're using an outdated calculator. Run thqt guy through Iranian k6 and im sure he will be closer to afghan tajiks

1- False. Afghan Turkmen are closer to central asian turkics than other Afghan groups. Some Afghan Tajiks are closer to Pashtuns, some are closer to Turkic speakers from central Asia, some are closer to Iranians, some are closer to Pamiris and some to Indic groups from Pakistan and India (from Eastern Afghanistan usually). Afghan Hazaras are closer to Uyghurs than to other Afghans, they get them as their first population.

2- Never mentioned Sindhis.

3- No, it doesn't when it comes to Admixture results.

4- Never done that.

5- It depends on the calculator, and that calculator is new not outdated. Its Punt k12.

Kurd
08-17-2016, 04:20 AM
Thats gotta be impossible because if elevated ASI was the case, then "pathans" would not be closer to a chechen than an Afghan Pashtun is. Pathans are Pakistani and Indian pashtuns who are closer to pinjabis than to Afghan Pashtuns.

And the number of drift for the pashtun is lower than the number for the Europeans. A georgian or chechen is not closer to a scott than to a pashtun lmao.

Elevated does not necessarily mean high, it just means higher than Chechens and Georgians. The following types of admixture even in small amounts have a significant negative effect on shared path lengths for crown eurasians:

1- SSA
2- E Asian
3- Basal Eurasian
4- ASI

What is affecting Pashtun slightly more than Pathan is the E Asian level is slightly higher (1 Pashtun sample has high E Asian)

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 04:24 AM
1- False. Afghan Turkmen are closer to central asian turkics than other Afghan groups. Some Afghan Tajiks are closer to Pashtuns, some are closer to Turkic speakers from central Asia, some are closer to Iranians and some are closer to Pamiris. Afghan Hazaras are closer to Uyghurs than to other Afghan Pashtuns, they get them as their first population.

2- Never mentioned Sindhis.

3- No, it doesn't when it comes to Admixture results.

4- Never done that.

5- It depends on the calculator.

1 I meant caucasoid/caucasian populations in Afghanistan. Pashtuns and Pamiris form a cluster genetically for crying out loud, Afghan Tajiks and Pashtuns are all genetically closer to Pashtuns than Punjabis or Sindhis are. The two aforementioned populations are relatively close to pashtuns as well, but not THAT close.

2 But the other guy did.

3 Yes it really really does. And those admixture results are obviously bogus and outdated

4 The other guy did

5 Yes, Iranian k6 would definitely show the Afghan Pashtun being genetically closer to other Afghan Pashtuns, and Afghan Tajiks/Pamiris, and even Persians than to before any Indic Pakistani or Indian.

Persians, Tajiks, and Pashtuns' ASE, Natufian, and Iranian Neo levels are all closer to each others than to any indians

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 04:30 AM
Elevated does not necessarily mean high, it just means higher than Chechens and Georgians. The following types of admixture even in small amounts have a significant negative effect on shared path lengths for crown eurasians:

1- SSA
2- E Asian
3- Basal Eurasian
4- ASI

What is affecting Pashtun slightly more than Pathan is the E Asian level is slightly higher (1 Pashtun sample has high E Asian)

That pashtun may be at least partially from the assimilated tribe of Turkics in Afghanistan.

And dont chechens and georgians score like 2-3% ASI? Pashtuns on average have 6-7% (according to Iranian K6), so that shouldnt be too much of an impact. Caucasians and afghans are both overwehelmingly chg like, they should def be closer to afghan pashtuns

surbakhunWeesste
08-17-2016, 04:48 AM
That pashtun may be at least partially from the assimilated tribe of Turkics in Afghanistan.

And dont chechens and georgians score like 2-3% ASI? Pashtuns on average have 6-7% (according to Iranian K6), so that shouldnt be too much of an impact. Caucasians and afghans are both overwehelmingly chg like, they should def be closer to afghan pashtuns

My father scores 6% ASE in Iran K6(AKA kandahari AKA the person's results that you've been parading in multiple forums). However, many eastern Afghan Pashtuns score higher than 10% ASE.

100% Afghan, from eastern Afghanistan.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 38.56
2 Natufian 34.41
3 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 14.49
4 East_Asian 7.05
5 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 5.5

Another one, fully Afghan (Eastern).

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 39.15
2 Natufian 33.75
3 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 13.77
4 East_Asian 8.47
5 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 4.86

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 04:54 AM
My father scores 6% ASE in Iran K6(AKA kandahari AKA the person's results that you've been parading in multiple forums). However, many eastern Afghan Pashtuns score higher than 10% ASE.

100% Afghan, from eastern Afghanistan.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 38.56
2 Natufian 34.41
3 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 14.49
4 East_Asian 7.05
5 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 5.5

Another one, fully Afghan (Eastern).

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 39.15
2 Natufian 33.75
3 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 13.77
4 East_Asian 8.47
5 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 4.86

Lol where are the population oracles then? And i dont believe that youre an afghan. Also how did those results come out of nowhere? All afghan pashtun results were in the chart I posted and none had higher than 10%

Thats clearly not the calculator im talking about because its missing iranian neo. Also what afghan has mostly ANE? The eastern afghan didnt score nearly that much on the other calculator

pegasus
08-17-2016, 05:03 AM
Nope. Paktia pashtuns were close to pamiris. Once theapricity is back up ill show you.

History with sindhis doesnt mean the population was replaced with sindhis lol. How come they dont look like sindhis but like other pashtuns and tajiks?

And idk who barnacle is

Also please explain how that oracle gave that pashtun higher south asian than punjabis score? Obviously that was the issue. No afghan pashtun is closer to a punjabi than to other afghan pashtuns. Bs. The average pashtun distance from a NW Indian is 18-20, which is like German - Spaniard distance, not close enough to make any pashtun closer to a paki.

If you really believe that you are either A) an Indian, or B ) very clueless.

Your constant reference to Apricity speaks volumes , where Captain Crunch would probably be held in high esteem. Your lame ad hominem and border line racist attacks at other members are weird and are creepy. If your not Barnacle , I guess you must be his twin because you both seem to think you magically change once you cross the Durrand line.

Btw those Ormuri Pashtuns are from Pakistan lol.

surbakhunWeesste
08-17-2016, 05:05 AM
Lol where are the population oracles then? And i dont believe that youre an afghan.

No need to. I just replied your false point that Afghan Pashtuns are 6-7% ASE on average. Btw, on K6's spreadsheet afghan Pashtuns are 11.61% ASE

Yeah I am an imposter and you are the real one coz I present facts and you are on a whim. All Afghans here should agree that caucasians and Afghans are identical so as they can be Afghan enough for you.
Heck you probably didn't even understand my name, sad case.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 05:22 AM
No need to. I just replied your false point that Afghan Pashtuns are 6-7% ASE on average. Btw, on K6's spreadsheet afghan Pashtuns are 11.61% ASE

Yeah I am an imposter and you are the real one coz I present facts and you are on a whim. All Afghans here should agree that caucasians and Afghans are identical so as they can be Afghan enough for you.
Heck you probably didn't even understand my name, sad case.

Hahaha. Buddy where do you see 11% ASE?


http://i.imgur.com/tVzNM5y.jpg

Punjabis dont score nearly enough Iranian Neo or Natufian to be like Persians or Pashtuns either.

If you were really afghan, why you would you try to indianize them so bad? Why would you use a fake oracle with no population results from god knows where to prove your false point.

Most calculators say that pashtuns are in between NW Indians and N caucasians genetically. How would they be closer to punjabis than to pamiris if that was possible?

Kurd
08-17-2016, 05:24 AM
For comparison, here is one for Pathan, sorted with most similar on top. Here, reduced EHG, and higher SW Asian act to reduce total drift with Pathans (ex Iranian, Syrian).



POP
OUT
TARGET
OUT
D
Z
SNPs


.Kurd_C3
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3791
98.057
117699


.Kurd_C2
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3789
92.656
117615


.Kurd_Ezidi
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3783
94.763
116798


.Znertu
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3773
91.012
117288


Georgian
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3767
100
118109


.Mfa
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3764
90.013
116101


French
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3763
100
118109


GujaratiA
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3762
100
118109


Sindhi
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3757
100
118109


Tajik- Tajikstan
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3755
100
118109


Greek
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3755
100
118109


Albanian
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3749
100
118109


GujaratiD
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3734
100
118109


Turkish
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3732
100
118109


Punjabi
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3728
100
118109


Spanish
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3725
100
118109


Iranian
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3723
100
118109


Iranian_Bandari
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3606
100
117189


Syrian
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3579
100
118109

surbakhunWeesste
08-17-2016, 05:27 AM
Hahaha. Buddy where do you see 11% ASE?


http://i.imgur.com/tVzNM5y.jpg

Punjabis dont score nearly enough Iranian Neo or Natufian to be like Persians or Pashtuns either.

If you were really afghan, why you would you try to indianize them so bad? Why would you use a fake oracle with no population results from god knows where to prove your false point.

Most calculators say that pashtuns are in between NW Indians and N caucasians genetically. Hoe would they be closer to punjabis than to pamiris of that was possible?


Do you even know how to use gedmatch? can you even technology? Do you know what AVERAGE means? You should be banned already, people like you give give Afghans a bad name. SMH
You have accused me of BS senselessly without providing any facts, if you do that one more time I will report you. You are better off on race forums not where people actually learn and discuss something.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 05:30 AM
For comparison, here is one for Pathan, sorted with most similar on top



POP
OUT
TARGET
OUT
D
Z
SNPs


.Kurd_C3
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3791
98.057
117699


.Kurd_C2
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3789
92.656
117615


.Kurd_Ezidi
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3783
94.763
116798


.Znertu
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3773
91.012
117288


Georgian
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3767
100
118109


.Mfa
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3764
90.013
116101


French
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3763
100
118109


GujaratiA
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3762
100
118109


Sindhi
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3757
100
118109


Tajik- Tajikstan
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3755
100
118109


Greek
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3755
100
118109


Albanian
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3749
100
118109


GujaratiD
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3734
100
118109


Turkish
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3732
100
118109


Punjabi
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3728
100
118109


Spanish
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3725
100
118109


Iranian
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3723
100
118109


Iranian_Bandari
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3606
100
117189


Syrian
Mbuti.DG
Pathan
Chimp
0.3579
100
118109



How are pashtuns and french people genetically close but not chechens? I dont know how to comprehend that as a possibility honestly

Kurd
08-17-2016, 05:34 AM
How are pashtuns and french people genetically close but not chechens? I dont know how to comprehend that as a possibility honestly

I forgot to include Chechens in this run, but I am certain they would be higher in the list than Georgians.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 05:34 AM
Do you even know how to use gedmatch? can you even technology? Do you know what AVERAGE means? You should be banned already, people like you give give Afghans a bad name. SMH
You have accused me of BS senselessly without providing any facts, if you do that one more time I will report you. You are better off on race forums not where people actually learn and discuss something.

Why would you report me when you're the one trolling me? I'm sorry that you and some other members of this site are butthurt when I validly question major errors in things you post, which causes you to respond with non informative, passive aggressive things such as "Do you even know how to use gedmatch? can you even technology? Do you know what AVERAGE means?" in leu of a constructive response.


You give a bad name to Afghans, because you're not even Afghan but you're pretending to be one on the Internet.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 05:36 AM
I forgot to include Chechens in this run, but I am certain they would be higher in the list than Georgians.

But seriously? How french people? Thats random. And why isnt the relationship mutual. Shouldnt it be mutual?

Shaikorth
08-17-2016, 05:41 AM
And why isnt the relationship mutual. Shouldnt it be mutual?

No. Point A can be closest to point B in a multidimensional space but point B can be closer to C, D, E than to A at the same time. In this case Pashtuns are A and French/Chechens/Georgians are B.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 05:45 AM
No. Point A can be closest to point B in a multidimensional space but point B can be closer to C, D, E than to A at the same time. In this case Pashtuns are A and French/Chechens/Georgians are B.

But but pashtuns, georgians, and chechens share far more ancestry with each other than they do with French people. And even though they don't look like French people or Afghans, they definitely look closer to Afghans than to French people.

Im also sure points A-D don't go Afghan, French, Chechen, Georgian, in that respective order lmao. And where do Finns come in? They also apparently share a lot with Afghan pashtuns on his other chart.

surbakhunWeesste
08-17-2016, 05:47 AM
Why would you report me when you're the one trolling me? I'm sorry that you and some other members of this site are butthurt when I validly question major errors in things you post, which causes you to respond with non informative, passive aggressive things such as "Do you even know how to use gedmatch? can you even technology? Do you know what AVERAGE means?" in leu of a constructive response.


You give a bad name to Afghans, because you're not even Afghan but you're pretending to be one on the Internet.

YOU are the troll here, firstly I doubt you are even Afghan now, secondly you have no idea how admixtures, etc work. You can't even criticize Kurd's work constructively. That shows lack of any intellect to me, You are on a whim here. You paraded my father's result posted by me and kurd here just to show how less ASE Pashtuns have, I find that ironic then you have the audacity to backfire with all your nonsense. Show some ghairat. You sound pathetic and extremely cunning that none of your points are valid and I am no time for fools like you. Your existence from this forum should be erased.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 05:53 AM
YOU are the troll here, firstly I doubt you are even Afghan now, secondly you have no idea how admixtures, etc work. You can't even criticize Kurd's work constructively. That shows lack of any intellect to me, You are on a whim here. You paraded my father's result posted by me and kurd here just to show how less ASE Pashtuns have, I find that ironic then you have the audacity to backfire with all your nonsense. Show some ghairat. You sound pathetic and extremely cunning that none of your points are valid and I am no time for fools like you. Your existence from this forum should be erased. You are REPORTED.

Da tor makh aw roya wrrak sha, sha chinzey darpashi shawi? badsharmi aw shoda overload. SMH

Edit edit edit edit. Nothing to see here.

surbakhunWeesste
08-17-2016, 05:54 AM
Ti wella jirkay actoona kaway? Si ne gharuma chi ta khapah ca wum, si tanna dere hindu gooram chi dara toke qa wee afghan sra. E ta DNA belah Iranian Noetholic ne larelah. Om pashtun ahkhase ANE ne score kawee. Agha like ghunte abilla dunya result de compared to abilla afghans.

Ma i ta plar result ne used krill?

post this in pashto section before you really get banned

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 05:56 AM
post this in pashto section before you really get banned

Why would I get banned?

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 05:56 AM
Edit edit edit edit. Nothing to see here.

surbakhunWeesste
08-17-2016, 05:57 AM
Why would I get banned?

Really ?

surbakhunWeesste
08-17-2016, 05:59 AM
You fail to constructively criticize me. And your pashto is actually kinda bad for someone who is "so proud" of being Afghan.

I don't speak your eastern kabuli pashto sorry, and ofc you'd find it bad cos you wouldn't understand it eh. I have no time for any of your nonsense. Do hell with you and your nonsense. Believe as you please, tickle your muse, Ignorance is a bliss for someone like you

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 06:02 AM
I don't speak your eastern kabuli pashto sorry, and ofc you'd find it bad cos you wouldn't understand it eh. I have no time for any of your nonsense. Do hell with you and your nonsense. Believe as you please, tickle your muse, Ignorance is a bliss for someone like you

I said that cause i was mad. And im not eastern kabuli, either. And i did understand it, you were very insulting man

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 06:07 AM
I'm still waiting for you to address

1 Why the "eastern pashtun" result you posted was worlds away from other Pashtuns or even Indians, showing mostly ANE and little bits of other components.
2- Where the population oracle is to it.
3 - proof it is someone from eastern afghanistan
4 - How pashtuns scored 30% South Asian (higher than punjabis) on the oracle that claimed that punjabis were closer to that pashtun than other afghans (including afghan pashtuns and pamiris) are.
5 - how Kurd's results make sense. Since you apparently know so much.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 06:13 AM
The members on this site seem to boast about how non pseudo scientific it is, and how TA is backwards, yet I haven't recieved constructive responses from anyone here except for Kurd and a lot of the "arguments" here being used against me seem pretty f***ing pseudoscientific and namecalling lol. Not to mention the reports and ban threats from non mods haha.

Shaikorth
08-17-2016, 06:44 AM
ADMIXTURE can't refute D-stats because it is not a formal mixture test and the components it creates are not real ancestral populations. Hence gedmatch oracles are not very relevant in discussions of genomewide affinity.

Kurd's results showing Georgians and Chechens closer to Europeans make sense, and he explained why here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7913-Caucasians-do-you-see-yourselves-as-closer-to-Europeans-or-to-Middle-Easterners&p=180237&viewfull=1#post180237).

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 07:33 AM
ADMIXTURE can't refute D-stats because it is not a formal mixture test and the components it creates are not real ancestral populations. Hence gedmatch oracles are not very relevant in discussions of genomewide affinity.

Kurd's results showing Georgians and Chechens closer to Europeans make sense, and he explained why here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7913-Caucasians-do-you-see-yourselves-as-closer-to-Europeans-or-to-Middle-Easterners&p=180237&viewfull=1#post180237).

Admixture plays a huge role. If that was the case, people would not be dropping $$ for 23andmes and some of those gedmatch calculators out there.

They are indeed based on real ancestral populations and both caucasians and afghans share massive amounts of ancestry from the same populations, whereas the same cannot be said with a western european. Where are these magical genomes that make caucasians closer to euros coming from? Lol. Thin air?

And if nobody is related to pashtuns, but pashtuns are apparently related to everyone else, that would make no sense and make them plot all alone somewhere, not even with afghan tajiks who those results insinuate are more different from afghans than the french are.

Shaikorth
08-17-2016, 08:14 AM
Admixture plays a huge role. If that was the case, people would not be dropping $$ for 23andmes and some of those gedmatch calculators out there. [/img]

Most 23andMe customers don't know what a D-stat is. 23andMe removed their IBS comparison tool as well, probably because it confused people. A

They are indeed based on real ancestral populations...

Admixture components are not real ancestral populations, they are artificial creations of the program. It can create identical components based in scenarios that actually involve totally different genetic histories. https://twitter.com/DanielFalush/status/755436290578022400 https://twitter.com/ras_nielsen/status/714953486723473408
Scientific papers, especially those working with ancient DNA, hence use D-stats and other more accurate measures.

[quote]And if nobody is related to pashtuns, but pashtuns are apparently related to everyone else, that would make no sense and make them plot all alone somewhere, not even with afghan tajiks who those results insinuate are more different from afghans than the french are.

Populations that are close to equally distant from everyone else cluster together even if they're close to some other populations than to each other. And about "plotting", it's also necessary to remember a single PCA picture does not show more than a fraction of real variation so it just gives a very generalized picture, not accurate numbers.

The percentages after PC labels indicate the variation shown by these PCA dimensions. It means 98% of the variation is not shown by the plot. Something like this happens with every PCA of genomewide data.

https://d2ufo47lrtsv5s.cloudfront.net/content/sci/early/2016/07/13/science.aaf7943/F2.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

Coldmountains
08-17-2016, 08:24 AM
I'm still waiting for you to address

1 Why the "eastern pashtun" result you posted was worlds away from other Pashtuns or even Indians, showing mostly ANE and little bits of other components.
2- Where the population oracle is to it.
3 - proof it is someone from eastern afghanistan
4 - How pashtuns scored 30% South Asian (higher than punjabis) on the oracle that claimed that punjabis were closer to that pashtun than other afghans (including afghan pashtuns and pamiris) are.
5 - how Kurd's results make sense. Since you apparently know so much.


Not sure why you are so sensitive here about the fact that some Pashtuns in eastern Afghanistan cluster with NW South Asians. All Pashtuns have significant south asian-related ancestry and especially northeastern Pashtuns(Kabul, Nangarhar,..). Southern Pashtuns are more Caucasus shifted. There are also many Pashtuns which look somehow Indic and many Pashtuns share Y-DNA and mtdna with South Asians. All this does not mean that Pashtuns are not Iranics and no Indian claimed this here. In pre-Islamic times Pashtun areas were full of buddhist and hindu temples and Gandhari manuscripts were much more numerous than any Bactrian manuscripts in ancient Pashtunistan. Much of modern day Pashtunistan was actually dominated by Indo-Aryans/Dardics in pre-Islamic times. Today Pashtuns are because of islam culturally closer to West Asians but without islam many Pashtuns would have indian names and indian religions instead of muslim names and islam.

Gravetto-Danubian
08-17-2016, 09:01 AM
[QUOTE=MyAnthropologies;180285]Admixture plays a huge role. If that was the case, people would not be dropping $$ for 23andmes and some of those gedmatch calculators out there. [/img]

Most 23andMe customers don't know what a D-stat is. 23andMe removed their IBS comparison tool as well, probably because it confused people. A

They are indeed based on real ancestral populations...

Admixture components are not real ancestral populations, they are artificial creations of the program. It can create identical components based in scenarios that actually involve totally different genetic histories. https://twitter.com/DanielFalush/status/755436290578022400 https://twitter.com/ras_nielsen/status/714953486723473408
Scientific papers, especially those working with ancient DNA, hence use D-stats and other more accurate measures.



Populations that are close to equally distant from everyone else cluster together even if they're close to some other populations than to each other. And about "plotting", it's also necessary to remember a single PCA picture does not show more than a fraction of real variation so it just gives a very generalized picture, not accurate numbers.

The percentages after PC labels indicate the variation shown by these PCA dimensions. It means 98% of the variation is not shown by the plot. Something like this happens with every PCA of genomewide data.

https://d2ufo47lrtsv5s.cloudfront.net/content/sci/early/2016/07/13/science.aaf7943/F2.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

If so, why does this 10% captured keep being reproduced in PCAs as a "world map" configuration.
In other words, is there something special about it ?

What is the best way to describe overall genomic relatedness between populations ?

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 09:08 AM
Not sure why you are so sensitive here about the fact that some Pashtuns in eastern Afghanistan cluster with NW South Asians. All Pashtuns have significant south asian-related ancestry and especially northeastern Pashtuns(Kabul, Nangarhar,..). Southern Pashtuns are more Caucasus shifted. There are also many Pashtuns which look somehow Indic and many Pashtuns share Y-DNA and mtdna with South Asians. All this does not mean that Pashtuns are not Iranics and no Indian claimed this here. In pre-Islamic times Pashtun areas were full of buddhist and hindu temples and Gandhari manuscripts were much more numerous than any Bactrian manuscripts in ancient Pashtunistan. Much of modern day Pashtunistan was actually dominated by Indo-Aryans/Dardics in pre-Islamic times. Today Pashtuns are because of islam culturally closer to West Asians but without islam many Pashtuns would have indian names and indian religions instead of muslim names and islam.

We are talking about Bronze Age and Iron Age populations. Not a religion spreading. French people were also partially islamic at one point but they werent replaced by arabs.

His oracle had a punjabi clustering closer to a pashtun than afghan pashtun did. That is what buhs me because on one hand, people say pashtuns are in betweem NW Indians and North Caucasians, then they claim that Eastern Pashtuns are genetically closer to NW Indics than to other Afghan pashtuns. That oracle itself was faulty because it had the pashtun scoring 30% south asian admixture which is more than punjabs score.

And no, pashtuns look like pashtuns, especially in eastern afghanistan, thats where some of the whitest looking tribes in Afghanistan are. They can't be like Indians.

Indians never "dominated" Afghanistan and there were fsr more iranic kingdoms and more ancient relations with iranians than ever wirh indians, dating back to the scythians, etc. Afghans dominated nw india in history way more than vice versa.

Besides, saying that you're not indians but you share blank blank history with them and were "domimated" by them is essentially saying "you're not indians, but you're indians."

Shaikorth
08-17-2016, 09:10 AM
If so, why does this 10% captured keep being reproduced in PCAs as a "world map" configuration.
In other words, is there something special about it ?

What is the best way to describe overall genomic relatedness between populations ?

Global PCA usually produces a generic "V" shape but actually a lot of it depends on how much samples there are. Native Americans and East Asians for example can interchangeably be at the extreme of the "triangle" depending on the number of samples.

As you probably know Papuans, who truly are an extreme population, appear a mix of East Asians and Africans on such a PCA. There isn't enough of them in most datasets used to do global PCA's (HGDP, Human Origins) to let them define dimensions 1 or 2.

An IBS matrix looks sterile but should be quite accurate.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 09:14 AM
[QUOTE=Shaikorth;180293]

If so, why does this 10% captured keep being reproduced in PCAs as a "world map" configuration.
In other words, is there something special about it ?

What is the best way to describe overall genomic relatedness between populations ?

Then why is nobody related to pashtuns? Whybare they apparently not even related to themselves or even their neighbors 5 miles away according to D stats?

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 09:19 AM
This is the first time ive seen anyone use d stats lol. People have no problem referencing admixture calcs for literally every other occasion. D stats, at least the ones presented here are clearly bull.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 09:22 AM
[QUOTE=Shaikorth;180293]

If so, why does this 10% captured keep being reproduced in PCAs as a "world map" configuration.
In other words, is there something special about it ?

What is the best way to describe overall genomic relatedness between populations ?

That PCA is highly wrong considering pashtuns cluster a bit north-east of north caucasians usually. Pashtuns have pretty much the same amounts of WHG like DNA as them and CHG like DNA as well. Pashtuns have some ASI, but some North Caucasians have east asian admixture anyways.

Shaikorth
08-17-2016, 09:40 AM
Then why is nobody related to pashtuns? Whybare they apparently not even related to themselves or even their neighbors 5 miles away according to D stats?

Georgians are more related to Europeans than to Pashtuns =/= nobody is related to Pasthuns. Georgians are, just not as closely. A----B, A-----C. B--C



This is the first time ive seen anyone use d stats lol. People have no problem referencing admixture calcs for literally every other occasion. D stats, at least the ones presented here are clearly bull.

Then you haven't read many scientific papers at all. But do point out the peer-reviewed studies referencing gedmatch calculators on the matters of genomewide similarity. And the D-stat tests here are repeatable. Go ask someone with Pashtun samples, like Davidski of Eurogenes, to run D (Chimp Georgian Pashtun English) or D (Chimp Chechen Pashtun English).

Gravetto-Danubian
08-17-2016, 09:48 AM
That PCA is highly wrong considering pashtuns cluster a bit north-east of north caucasians usually. Pashtuns have pretty much the same amounts of WHG like DNA as them and CHG like DNA as well. Pashtuns have some ASI, but some North Caucasians have east asian admixture anyways.

Id listen to Shaikorth if I were you
He knows what he's saying & is objective on matters

khanabadoshi
08-17-2016, 10:50 AM
MyAnthropolgies would you mind posting your ASE K6 results? If you didn't already. I'd like to include you in the PCA, curious to see where you cluster. It's possible you'll have a strong pull towards Iran_Recent, like the Kandahar sample. I doubt there will be a strong pull towards the Chechens and Georgians, they are quite distant -- though they plot something like 1/4th to midway between Southern Europeans and Baloch or Iran_N. However, I'd wager that all the Afghan or Baloch samples are easily closer to any South Indian sample then they are to Chechens/Georgians. On the PCA Baloch/Brahui/Makrani are on a lower plane and Afghan on a higher plane parallel to each other but Afghans are being drawn towards Iran_Recent and Baloch towards Iran_N and CHG. The Baloch/Brahui/Makrani clusters are more clearly on some sort of cline with the Caucasus groups than then Afghan groups are -- at least on this PCA. I could be wrong, I'd have to look again at the PCA.

If you want we can make a PCA with just Afghani, Tajiki, Pakistani, NW Indian and Caucasian groups and see what happens.


EDIT: FYI none of the Afghan members are in the ASE K6 (Gedmatch) dendrogram/PCA or spreadsheet except those posted by Dr_McNinja.
I believe all of you are in the Iran Neolithic K6 (DIY) run.

Also, I request that people don't post other member's results all over the internet. This discourages people from being included in community plots and then I have to go through a process of assigning aliases and keeping track of who is who. Keep results from AG limited to AG. And if you are going to post someone else's results make sure you have permission first and check to see it's not already posted. We have an insane amount of doubled posts under different names that take forever to sort through.

khanabadoshi
08-17-2016, 11:08 AM
Hahaha. Buddy where do you see 11% ASE?


http://i.imgur.com/tVzNM5y.jpg

Punjabis dont score nearly enough Iranian Neo or Natufian to be like Persians or Pashtuns either.

If you were really afghan, why you would you try to indianize them so bad? Why would you use a fake oracle with no population results from god knows where to prove your false point.

Most calculators say that pashtuns are in between NW Indians and N caucasians genetically. How would they be closer to punjabis than to pamiris if that was possible?


You both were quoting different calculators. She was talking about ANE K6, and you quoted Iran Neolithic K6.


https://i.gyazo.com/6e7e932f14ae63ead382f9e6a8f05261.png

Coldmountains
08-17-2016, 11:23 AM
We are talking about Bronze Age and Iron Age populations. Not a religion spreading. French people were also partially islamic at one point but they werent replaced by arabs.

His oracle had a punjabi clustering closer to a pashtun than afghan pashtun did. That is what buhs me because on one hand, people say pashtuns are in betweem NW Indians and North Caucasians, then they claim that Eastern Pashtuns are genetically closer to NW Indics than to other Afghan pashtuns. That oracle itself was faulty because it had the pashtun scoring 30% south asian admixture which is more than punjabs score.

And no, pashtuns look like pashtuns, especially in eastern afghanistan, thats where some of the whitest looking tribes in Afghanistan are. They can't be like Indians.

Indians never "dominated" Afghanistan and there were fsr more iranic kingdoms and more ancient relations with iranians than ever wirh indians, dating back to the scythians, etc. Afghans dominated nw india in history way more than vice versa.

Besides, saying that you're not indians but you share blank blank history with them and were "domimated" by them is essentially saying "you're not indians, but you're indians."

I know anthropology is very unreliable and Pashtuns look on average very different from Indians but many Pashtuns look Indic or indic-shifted. That is actually on of the few ways i can distingush Tajiks from Pashtuns because Pashtuns have more indic types. Pashtuns are not the "whitest" people in Afghanistan and probably the darkest people of Afghanistan after Baluch. Genetic data is not lying and some Pashtuns in Afghanistan are closer to NW Indians than to Pamiri. That is also true for some Tajiks in eastern Afghanistan . Pre-Islamic Afghanistan had deep cultural links with India but yes most ruling dynasties were local or east iranic(saka,Kushan,..). Maurya had some lose control over some parts of Afghanistan but their rule was rather indirect. Anyways nobody said Afghans were subjugated by Indians and many South Asians and Southeast Asians of non-Indian origin became Indianized without losing their own identity because of cultural diffusion from India and the migration of Indians. Most East Iranic rulers of pre-Islamic Afghanistan openly embraced indian culture and adopted indian names,religions and traditions. Ironically the "white" saka and Kushan were the most indophile . Anyways all this does not mean that someone lose his identity and Afghans are definitely not "indians" and nobody here is talking about this but denying links with South Asia is also ridiculous

Tag Heuer
08-17-2016, 11:50 AM
Lol last time I was here it was 2-page thread

Magnetic
08-17-2016, 11:51 AM
Lol last time I was here it was 2-page thread

since you were away afghans have successfully become russian and french

(just joking myanthropologies ;) dont get mad at me broski)

khanabadoshi
08-17-2016, 12:03 PM
Lol last time I was here it was 2-page thread

LOL me too!

Volat
08-17-2016, 12:11 PM
since you were away afghans have successfully become russian and french

Russians may accept the Pashtuns into their community if they adopt Christianity taking names such as Oleg, Olga, Igor, Elena. :)

MonkeyDLuffy
08-17-2016, 12:21 PM
Russians may accept the Pashtuns into their community if they adopt Christianity taking names such as Oleg, Olga, Igor, Elena. :)

Don't forget vladmir. It's the most important one.

Tag Heuer
08-17-2016, 12:30 PM
Don't forget vladmir. It's the most important one.

Putin is even better: http://www.pravdareport.com/video/01-06-2016/134599-putin-0/ . Russians should adopt him immediately

Coldmountains
08-17-2016, 01:06 PM
Russians may accept the Pashtuns into their community if they adopt Christianity taking names such as Oleg, Olga, Igor, Elena. :)

I see we already have endless amounts of various kinds of "Vatniks" they just have the wrong religion but when they adopt orthodoxy they would perfectly fit in "Russkiy Mir" :P

Volat
08-17-2016, 01:15 PM
Don't forget vladmir. It's the most important one.

I don't forget the name which came to us from southern or western Slavs. Olga, Oleg, Igor are beautiful names. These three are derived from the names of Norse rulers Helga, Helg and Ingvar who established Rus state. :)

Kurd
08-17-2016, 01:17 PM
Hahaha. Buddy where do you see 11% ASE?


http://i.imgur.com/tVzNM5y.jpg

Punjabis dont score nearly enough Iranian Neo or Natufian to be like Persians or Pashtuns either.

If you were really afghan, why you would you try to indianize them so bad? Why would you use a fake oracle with no population results from god knows where to prove your false point.

Most calculators say that pashtuns are in between NW Indians and N caucasians genetically. How would they be closer to punjabis than to pamiris if that was possible?


The Iran N scores have been manipulated. None of the Pashtun samples shown here, had Iran N scores >60%. The only ones that had Iran N scores >60% that I recall were Zara, Kurd SE, Khana, Sapporo, and McNinja.

This one has the correct scores: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ByPKVwgDy1lXpwjb-YOfVHPRHCkM1G5Ce6FdVumBBLE/edit#gid=0

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 03:19 PM
I know anthropology is very unreliable and Pashtuns look on average very different from Indians but many Pashtuns look Indic or indic-shifted. That is actually on of the few ways i can distingush Tajiks from Pashtuns because Pashtuns have more indic types. Pashtuns are not the "whitest" people in Afghanistan and probably the darkest people of Afghanistan after Baluch.

What did you base that statement off of? A google Images search? Lol. Pashtuns and Tajiks are pretty indistinguishable. There are definitely some pashtun tribes out there that are pretty white looking. One is in Pakistan, though. I've literally only met two indic looking pashtuns in my life, and I've seen a lot. 98% of overlap with the looks of Afghan Tajiks. Here is a thread of pashtuns' physical diversity: http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/46237-Phenotypical-diversity-of-Afghans-Pashtuns. They on average don't look much different from Afghan Tajiks, Persians, and Turks.


Genetic data is not lying and some Pashtuns in Afghanistan are closer to NW Indians than to Pamiri. That is also true for some Tajiks in eastern Afghanistan . Pre-Islamic Afghanistan had deep cultural links with India but yes most ruling dynasties were local or east iranic(saka,Kushan,..).



Of course they don't lie. However, the oracles posted of those pashtuns were not only old, but overstimated the south asian percentages to the point where it was 20% greater than the amount a punjab scores. It also underestimated iranian neo/chg like levels. Of course results that score 30% south indian (which was the punjabi average prior to iranian k6) will make that guy look basically punjabi.

Run his results through Iranian k6 and I'm pretty sure his population distances will look drastically different. All of the Afghan Pashtuns (from various areas) on there overlaped with tajiks there far more than they did with punjabis, they even overlaped more with persians.



Maurya had some lose control over some parts of Afghanistan but their rule was rather indirect. Anyways nobody said Afghans were subjugated by Indians and many South Asians and Southeast Asians of non-Indian origin became Indianized without losing their own identity because of cultural diffusion from India and the migration of Indians. Most East Iranic rulers of pre-Islamic Afghanistan openly embraced indian culture and adopted indian names,religions and traditions. Ironically the "white" saka and Kushan were the most indophile . Anyways all this does not mean that someone lose his identity and Afghans are definitely not "indians" and nobody here is talking about this but denying links with South Asia is also ridiculous

Lol, what are you saying??? It's not like Maurya Empire suddenly brought enough indian men to go impregnated all or even most women in Eastern Afghanistan. Neither did any other event with Indians. Afghanistan has shared far more history with itself than with any other place. Especially considering that modern day Afghanistan has different borders and the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan is practically only the middle of Afghanistan.

I'm not denying links with south asia, but I'm calling out the many obvious errors in the oracles people share that make Afghan Pashtuns look closer to Punjabis and Gujuratis than to other Afghan Pashtuns, Afghan Tajiks, and Pamiri Tajiks. People on here make it sound like Pashtuns and Punjabis are like British to Iriish people when that's far from the truth. They're more like German - Spaniard to each other.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 03:24 PM
since you were away afghans have successfully become russian and french

(just joking myanthropologies ;) dont get mad at me broski)
I know you're joking. But we are not closer to Russians than to Pamiris, NW Indians, and Persians, jokes aside. And Georgians are not closer to English people. I think we can all agree on that lol.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 03:27 PM
Who are among the closest to Russians and Finns based on the D stats? I wonder. Is it Pashtuns? Because apparently despite Kurds sharing the most with us, the relationship is not mutual, and neither with Georgians or Chechens apparently.

khanabadoshi
08-17-2016, 03:28 PM
The Iran N scores have been manipulated. None of the Pashtun samples shown here, had Iran N scores >60%. The only ones that had Iran N scores >60% that I recall were Zara, Kurd SE, Khana, Sapporo, and McNinja.

This one has the correct scores: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ByPKVwgDy1lXpwjb-YOfVHPRHCkM1G5Ce6FdVumBBLE/edit#gid=0


Ahh, didn't even notice he quoted the spreadsheet that was "destroyed". I should delete that spreadsheet.

Relevant scores from Iran Neolithic K6:

https://i.gyazo.com/e415a1c13c4e921bf32f5b8aad1edef6.png

Volat
08-17-2016, 03:35 PM
Uzbeks of Afganistan are similar to Uzbeks. Tajiks of Afghanistan - to Tajiks. Hazars - to Ughurs. Pashtuns are a mix bag. Most of them look as Pakistani; both are similar to Panjabi of north-western India.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 03:39 PM
Ahh, didn't even notice he quoted the spreadsheet that was "destroyed". I should delete that spreadsheet.

Relevant scores from Iran Neolithic K6:

https://i.gyazo.com/e415a1c13c4e921bf32f5b8aad1edef6.png

Hmm. That's one mongoliod shifted Afghan Tajik. I though that could only be said Tajik Tajiks but I guess not. Anyways that chart makes more sense. The Pakistani Pashtuns such as Mohammed FATA and the other guy seem to overlap with Punjabs a bit more, and the Afghan Pashtuns overlap with Afghan Tajiks more.

And to answer your orevious question im getting a dna test but idk if i should get a 23andme or ancestrydna as an afghan pashtun.

khanabadoshi
08-17-2016, 03:49 PM
Hmm. That's one mongoliod shifted Afghan Tajik. I though that could only be said Tajik Tajiks but I guess not. Anyways that chart makes more sense. The Pakistani Pashtuns such as Mohammed FATA and the other guy seem to overlap with Punjabs a bit more, and the Afghan Pashtuns overlap with Afghan Tajiks more.

And to answer your orevious question im getting a dna test but idk if i should get a 23andme or ancestrydna as an afghan pashtun.

The FATA Mohmand tends to have some Kalash/Burusho overlap; could explain his results. Usually he plots with the Afghan Pashtuns.

23andMe has more overlap with Gedmatch calculators when it comes to autosomal data. However, if you are curious about your y-DNA Halpgroup and want more exact results regarding that, I'd go with FTDNA.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 03:50 PM
23andMe has more overlap with Gedmatch calculators when it comes to autosomal data. However, if you are curious about your y-DNA Halpgroup and want more exact results regarding that, I'd go with FTDNA.

Okay, thanks man :)

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 03:56 PM
Georgians are more related to Europeans than to Pashtuns =/= nobody is related to Pasthuns. Georgians are, just not as closely. A----B, A-----C. B--C




Then you haven't read many scientific papers at all. But do point out the peer-reviewed studies referencing gedmatch calculators on the matters of genomewide similarity. And the D-stat tests here are repeatable. Go ask someone with Pashtun samples, like Davidski of Eurogenes, to run D (Chimp Georgian Pashtun English) or D (Chimp Chechen Pashtun English).

Lol I'm pretty sure that the distance between Georgians and French people is not B-C at all. Even if they were somehow closer to French people.

I understand that most scientific studies use d stats, but they also frequently use SNPs, which is what admixture calculators are highly based on. Admixture calculators are also based off of gatherings from studies as well. So d stats dont just outweigh admixture like that.

And besides that, these d stat scores do not align with what genetic studies have concluded on who pashtuns or caucasians are related to.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 04:01 PM
Uzbeks of Afganistan are similar to Uzbeks. Tajiks of Afghanistan - to Tajiks. Hazars - to Ughurs. Pashtuns are a mix bag. Most of them look as Pakistani; both are similar to Panjabi of north-western India.

Lol troll. How come I've only come upon 2 in my whole life that look indian? Do these people look indian to you?

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/46237-Phenotypical-diversity-of-Afghans-Pashtuns

Volat
08-17-2016, 04:07 PM
Lol troll. How come I've only come upon 2 in my whole life that look indian? Do these people look indian to you?

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/46237-Phenotypical-diversity-of-Afghans-Pashtuns

More or less.

There're differences between people of neighbouring countries. And between people of regions of the same country. To outsiders Pashtuns, Pakistani , Panjabi look similar. Think of eastern Asians - Japanese, Koreans, Hans of eastern China. They look similar and genetically similar. But people of eastern Asia would swear they are different in every possible way.

Shaikorth
08-17-2016, 04:09 PM
I know you're joking. But we are not closer to Russians than to Pamiris, NW Indians, and Persians, jokes aside. And Georgians are not closer to English people. I think we can all agree on that lol.

I don't think D-stats agreed on Georgians. And maybe allele sharing distances don't either.

Georgian - Armenian 0.23313
Georgian - Tuscan 0.23472
Georgian - Turkish 0.23487
Georgian - Spanish 0.23578
Georgian - French 0.23623
Georgian - Iranian 0.23652
Georgian - Pathan 0.23942

Behar's dataset didn't have Pashtuns but they shouldn't be expected to be closer to Georgians than Iranians are.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 04:18 PM
I don't think D-stats agreed on Georgians. And maybe allele sharing distances don't either.

Georgian - Armenian 0.23313
Georgian - Tuscan 0.23472
Georgian - Turkish 0.23487
Georgian - Spanish 0.23578
Georgian - French 0.23623
Georgian - Iranian 0.23652
Georgian - Pathan 0.23942

Behar's dataset didn't have Pashtuns but they shouldn't be expected to be closer to Georgians than Iranians are.

Where do French people come in though? They're western Europeans??? And closer to Tuscans??? Lol. Also use "Afghan Pashtun," not "Pathan." Pathans are some Pakistani and Indian Pashtuns and there are genetic differences between the two.

And are those Georgians' top 7 populations?

Shaikorth
08-17-2016, 04:18 PM
Lol I'm pretty sure that the distance between Georgians and French people is not B-C at all. Even if they were somehow closer to French people.

I understand that most scientific studies use d stats, but they also frequently use SNPs, which is what admixture calculators are highly based on. Admixture calculators are also based off of gatherings from studies as well. So d stats dont just outweigh admixture like that.

And besides that, these d stat scores do not align with what genetic studies have concluded on who pashtuns or caucasians are related to.

D-stats are based on SNP's, IBS is based on SNP's, ASD is based on SNP's, TreeMix is based on SNP's most things that have to do with genomewide similarity are based on SNP's. ADMIXTURE doesn't take all variation into account just like PCA, and creates the clusters based on recent drift. But there is always overlap between clusters and variation lost in the model, and as evident from the links I gave in a previous post, it can create identical clustering from several totally different genetic histories. Formal testing can refute ADMIXTURE but ADMIXTURE can not refute formal testing.

Shaikorth
08-17-2016, 04:20 PM
Where do French people come in though? They're western Europeans??? And closer to Tuscans??? Lol. Also use "Afghan Pashtun," not "Pathan." Pathans are some Pakistani and Indian Pashtuns and there are genetic differences between the two.

Did you read what I wrote about Pashtuns. Kurd can run IBS on Georgians, West Europeans and Pashtuns if you don't want to extrapolate on Behar's result.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 04:29 PM
Did you read what I wrote about Pashtuns. Kurd can run IBS on Georgians, West Europeans and Pashtuns if you don't want to extrapolate on Behar's result.

Okay, but you claimed that the distance is A-----C, and B-C, even though French people aren't much more similar to Georgians than Pashtuns are based on those results.

Second of all, your statement was already contradicted because the order goes Pashtun-Chechen-French on one hand, but Chechen/Georgian-French-Pashtun on the other.

Pashtuns and Frech people are not closer to each other than Pashtuns and caucasians are. Even using your logic, it makes no sense.

You previously claimed that Pashtuns shared the most genetic drift with caucasians, NE Europeans, and Balochis, and that theyre closest to punjabis, when theyre genetically closest to the former groups based on d stats, and after that was confirmed.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 04:32 PM
Did you read what I wrote about Pashtuns. Kurd can run IBS on Georgians, West Europeans and Pashtuns if you don't want to extrapolate on Behar's result.

So then who are closest to pashtuns if theyre apparently closer to French people than to Tajiks? If kurds were so genetically drifted to other people despite being drifted towards pashtuns the most, how come we dont see Greeks, etc on the Pashtun one if theyre so close to kurds as you claimed?

Shaikorth
08-17-2016, 04:35 PM
Okay, but you claimed that the distance is A-----C, and B-C, even though French people aren't much more similar to Georgians than Pashtuns are based on those results.[/img]

I did not say these are to be taken literally and that they represent Pashtuns, French, Chechens and Georgians. I also assumed no one would rush to conclude that. They are meant to illustrate populations B and C can be closer to each other than to A even though other of them is closest relative A has.

[quote]

Second of all, your statement was already contradicted because the order goes Pashtun-Chechen-French on one hand, but Chechen/Georgian-French-Pashtun on the other.

Pashtuns and Frech people are not closer to each other than Pashtuns and caucasians are. Even using your logic, it makes no sense.



Never said Pashtuns are closer to French than to Georgians/Chechens.




You previously claimed that Pashtuns shared the most genetic drift with caucasians, NE Europeans, and Balochis, even though based on d stats, and that theyre closest to punjabis, when theyre genetically closest to the former groups based on d stats, and after that was confirmed.

When did I say Pashtuns are closest to Punjabis?

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 04:36 PM
[QUOTE=MyAnthropologies;180441]Okay, but you claimed that the distance is A-----C, and B-C, even though French people aren't much more similar to Georgians than Pashtuns are based on those results.[/img]

I did not say these are to be taken literally and that they represent Pashtuns, French, Chechens and Georgians. I also assumed no one would rush to conclude that. They are meant to illustrate populations B and C can be closer to each other than to A even though other of them is closest relative A has.



Never said Pashtuns are closer to French than to Georgians/Chechens.



When did I say Pashtuns are closest to Punjabis?

Then why are you claiming Georgians are closer French people? Lol, why are you only rolling with the d stats that suit your narrative?

Shaikorth
08-17-2016, 04:38 PM
[QUOTE=Shaikorth;180445]

Then why are you claiming Georgians are closer French people? Lol, why are you only rolling with the d stats that suit your narrative?

What's the D-stat that doesn't support "my narrative"? Does it show Georgians are closer to Pashtuns than to French?

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 04:49 PM
What's the D-stat that doesn't support "my narrative"? Does it show Georgians are closer to Pashtuns than to French?

No. That is the one that supoorts your narrative lol. Thats the one you went on about. Youre claiming that the d stat on pashtuns basically isnt right because it shows them as closer to french people, but youre hinting that georgians being closer to french than to iranians makes sense

Tag Heuer
08-17-2016, 04:54 PM
Those are my nmonte results:

Chechen 56,02 ---//Confidence: very high
Kumyk 20,4 ---//Confidence: high
Balkarian 19,48 ---//Confidence: very high
Ossetian 18,81 ---//Confidence: high
Hungarian 18,72 ---//Confidence: very high
Tuscan 17,81 ---//Confidence: very high
Adygei 17,61 ---//Confidence: high
Kurd 17,39 ---//Confidence: low
German 17,3 ---//Confidence: medium
Macedonian 17,28 ---//Confidence: medium
Turkish 17,23 ---//Confidence: very high
Ashkenazi 16,47 ---//Confidence: high
Greek_Azov 16,45 ---//Confidence: low
Russian-South 16,33 ---//Confidence: very high
Swedish 16,09 ---//Confidence: high
Montenegrian 15,91 ---//Confidence: medium
Irish-and-Scottish 15,8 ---//Confidence: high
Armenian 15,68 ---//Confidence: high
Azerbaijani 15,67 ---//Confidence: high
Finnish-West 15,54 ---//Confidence: high
Bosnian 15,5 ---//Confidence: medium
Cypriot 15,43 ---//Confidence: medium
Karelian 15,32 ---//Confidence: high
Norwegian 15,27 ---//Confidence: high
Spanish 15,25 ---//Confidence: very high
Sicilian 15,07 ---//Confidence: very high
Abkhazian 15,03 ---//Confidence: very high
Georgian 14,84 ---//Confidence: very high
Tatar-Crimean 14,78 ---//Confidence: low
Druze 14,65 ---//Confidence: very high
Russian-North-East 14,5 ---//Confidence: very high
Polish 14,48 ---//Confidence: very high
Greek 13,96 ---//Confidence: very high
Ukrainian-West-and-Center 13,94 ---//Confidence: high
Iranian 13,84 ---//Confidence: very high
Sardinian 13,58 ---//Confidence: very high
Estonian 13,56 ---//Confidence: very high
Russian-West 13,53 ---//Confidence: very high
Cornish 13,29 ---//Confidence: very high
Tatar-Volga 13,28 ---//Confidence: high
Slovenian 13,27 ---//Confidence: high
Serbian 13,26 ---//Confidence: high
Belarusian 13,24 ---//Confidence: very high
Bulgarian 13,14 ---//Confidence: high
Slovak 12,98 ---//Confidence: high
Pamiri 12,97 ---//Confidence: very high
French 12,93 ---//Confidence: very high
Croatian 12,79 ---//Confidence: very high
Nogay 12,46 ---//Confidence: high
UAE 12,39 ---//Confidence: medium
Russian-North-Kargopol 12,31 ---//Confidence: very high
Veps 12,3 ---//Confidence: medium
Balt 12,06 ---//Confidence: high
Chuvash 11,95 ---//Confidence: very high
English 11,91 ---//Confidence: very high
Gagauz 11,88 ---//Confidence: medium
Kalash 11,78 ---//Confidence: very high
Komi 11,74 ---//Confidence: very high
Mari 11,72 ---//Confidence: high
Andhra-Pradesh 11,72 ---//Confidence: medium
Turkmen 11,61 ---//Confidence: very high
Finnish-East 11,6 ---//Confidence: high
Romanian 11,38 ---//Confidence: medium
Tunisian 11,37 ---//Confidence: medium
Saami 11,35 ---//Confidence: medium
Brahui 11,28 ---//Confidence: very high
Bedouin 11,23 ---//Confidence: very high
Lezgin 10,92 ---//Confidence: very high
Makrani 10,84 ---//Confidence: very high
Sindhi 10,76 ---//Confidence: very high
Tadjik 10,73 ---//Confidence: high
Bashkir 10,63 ---//Confidence: very high
Sephard 10,59 ---//Confidence: high
Burusho 10,59 ---//Confidence: very high
Shor 10,51 ---//Confidence: low
Tatar_Lithuanian 10,41 ---//Confidence: very low
Erzya 10,15 ---//Confidence: medium
Basque 10,12 ---//Confidence: very high
Pathan 10,03 ---//Confidence: very high
Moroccan 10,01 ---//Confidence: very high
Uzbek 9,79 ---//Confidence: high
Yemenite 9,58 ---//Confidence: medium
Italian-South 9,55 ---//Confidence: high
Ukrainian-East-and-Center 9,46 ---


Among the closest pops are Kurds again and no other Iranian-speaking peoples. The reason why is explained on the second page of this thread. And you can see a lot of European pops on the list, it's mixed , the closest are Hungarians and Tuscans

Shaikorth
08-17-2016, 04:59 PM
No. That is the one that supoorts your narrative lol. Thats the one you went on about. Youre claiming that the d stat on pashtuns basically isnt right because it shows them as closer to french people, but youre hinting that georgians being closer to french than to iranians makes sense

Point out where I went on about Georgians being closer to Pashtuns than to French - as far as I know it's been the opposite. Georgians being closer to French than to Behar's Iranians would make sense too, because that sample has southern peculiarities.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 05:11 PM
Point out where I went on about Georgians being closer to Pashtuns than to French - as far as I know it's been the opposite. Georgians being closer to French than to Behar's Iranians would make sense too, because that sample has southern peculiarities.

You have been going on about the opposite because that's what your dstats apparently say. But you think that the d stats of pashtuns are wrong for some reason.

Georgians are not closer to French people than to Pashtuns OR Iranians.


You say that pashtuns are not closest to French, Russian, or Finnish people, even thiugh that's what their d stats say. Then you say they are not closest to punjabs or tajiks either. So who are they close to?

You then claim that Georgians are closer to French people than pashtuns, based on the same d stats used that said Pashtuns are closest to Russians which you said are wrong.

jesus
08-17-2016, 05:14 PM
Why do you focus on the western/northern Pashtun samples, MyAnthro ? Pashtun south Indian range is 11-36% for example, which is pretty huge for a supposedly related ethnicity.

http://www.harappadna.org/2013/07/pathan-pashtun-admixture-results/

Afghan Tajiks are pretty diverse as well, some score up to 30% East Eurasian.
http://www.harappadna.org/2014/01/afghan-dataset/

Some Afghan Pashtuns (mostly eastern) score 7-10% Higher south Asian than other Afghan Pashtuns(Durrani, Ghilzai), which is a pretty remarkable difference for the same ethnic group within the same country.

Coldmountains
08-17-2016, 05:47 PM
What did you base that statement off of? A google Images search? Lol. Pashtuns and Tajiks are pretty indistinguishable. There are definitely some pashtun tribes out there that are pretty white looking. One is in Pakistan, though. I've literally only met two indic looking pashtuns in my life, and I've seen a lot. 98% of overlap with the looks of Afghan Tajiks. Here is a thread of pashtuns' physical diversity: http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/46237-Phenotypical-diversity-of-Afghans-Pashtuns. They on average don't look much different from Afghan Tajiks, Persians, and Turks.
Yes Afghan Tajiks in eastern Afghanistan are very close to Pashtuns (many of them have Pashtun ancestry) and Afghan Pashtuns are generally closest to them. But many Afghan Tajiks have significant South Asian-related ancestry and are different from Tajiks in Tajikistan. No Pashtun tribe is "white". Some Pashtuns can look pretty white and many Pashtuns look somehow South European but calling Pashtuns white because of this is really an exaggeration and the vague and misused term "white should really not be used in a serious discussion. Most Afghan Pashtuns look like dark Caucasians and somehow West Asian but a lot of them can also look NW Indic and there are definetly more indic looking Pashtuns than "white" looking Pashtuns (on the internet many there are many cherrypicked picture of white "nordic" looking Pashtuns.






Lol, what are you saying??? It's not like Maurya Empire suddenly brought enough indian men to go impregnated all or even most women in Eastern Afghanistan. Neither did any other event with Indians. Afghanistan has shared far more history with itself than with any other place. Especially considering that modern day Afghanistan has different borders and the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan is practically only the middle of Afghanistan.

I'm not denying links with south asia, but I'm calling out the many obvious errors in the oracles people share that make Afghan Pashtuns look closer to Punjabis and Gujuratis than to other Afghan Pashtuns, Afghan Tajiks, and Pamiri Tajiks. People on here make it sound like Pashtuns and Punjabis are like British to Iriish people when that's far from the truth. They're more like German - Spaniard to each other.
Where did i imply this? There were Indics which ruled over Iranics but the most time Afghanistan was ruled by local dynasties and Iranics. Actually it were Iranics like Kushan who encouraged Indians to migrate to pre-islamic Urban centers of Afghanistan. Urban civilization in pre-islamic Afghanistan was very much influenced by Indian civilization

Shaikorth
08-17-2016, 05:49 PM
You have been going on about the opposite because that's what your dstats apparently say. But you think that the d stats of pashtuns are wrong for some reason.

Georgians are not closer to French people than to Pashtuns OR Iranians.


You say that pashtuns are not closest to French, Russian, or Finnish people, even thiugh that's what their d stats say. Then you say they are not closest to punjabs or tajiks either. So who are they close to?

You then claim that Georgians are closer to French people than pashtuns, based on the same d stats used that said Pashtuns are closest to Russians which you said are wrong.

Now these D-stats below say Georgians are closer to French than to Pashtuns. The D-stat list that had Pashtuns (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7123-Pashtun-deep-ancestry-results-using-Dstats&p=155661&viewfull=1#post155661) "closest to Russians" (actually Kurd-C3 in a statistically insignificant way) didn't even include Georgians and the differences between positions 1 and 13 were statistically insignificant. My point is that Caucasus peoples such as Chechens and Georgians tend to be closer to many Europeans than to Pashtuns, not that Pashtuns are closest to French or whatever. If you want to argue that point provide D-stats or IBS stats that show Pashtuns are closer to Georgians than Greeks, Albanians and French are, and so contradict this list:

.Znertu Mbuti.DG Georgian Chimp 0.3934 95 117288
Greek Mbuti.DG Georgian Chimp 0.3932 100 118109
Albanian Mbuti.DG Georgian Chimp 0.3926 100 118109
.Kurd_C2 Mbuti.DG Georgian Chimp 0.3917 95 117615
.Kurd_C3 Mbuti.DG Georgian Chimp 0.3917 100 117699
French Mbuti.DG Georgian Chimp 0.3913 100 118109
.Mfa Mbuti.DG Georgian Chimp 0.3911 95 116101
Scottish Mbuti.DG Georgian Chimp 0.3901 100 118109
Spanish Mbuti.DG Georgian Chimp 0.3891 100 118109
Pathan Mbuti.DG Georgian Chimp 0.3776 100 118109
Pashtun_Afghan Mbuti.DG Georgian Chimp 0.3767 100 118110

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 05:51 PM
Yes Afghan Tajiks in eastern Afghanistan are very close to Pashtuns (many of them have Pashtun ancestry) and Afghan Pashtuns are generally closest to them. But many Afghan Tajiks have significant South Asian-related ancestry and are different from Tajiks in Tajikistan. No Pashtun tribe is "white". Some Pashtuns can look pretty white and many Pashtuns look somehow South European but calling Pashtuns white because of this is really an exaggeration and the vague and misused term "white should really not be used in a serious discussion. Most Afghan Pashtuns look like dark Caucasians and somehow West Asian but a lot of them can also look NW Indic and there are definetly more indic looking Pashtuns than "white" looking Pashtuns (on the internet many there are many cherrypicked picture of white "nordic" looking Pashtuns.



Where did i imply this? There were Indics which ruled over Iranics but the most time Afghanistan was ruled by local dynasties and Iranics. Actually it were Iranics like Kushan who encouraged Indians to migrate to pre-islamic Urban centers of Afghanistan. Urban civilization in pre-islamic Afghanistan was very much influenced by Indian civilization

I never said pashtuns are white, but majority look like other west asians. And there are an equal amount of indic and white looking pashtuns. They are not cherrypicked. They exist and they are a part of the pashtun phenotype wther you like it or not. Pashtuns are phenotypically diverse. I've seriously never met more than two that look indian and Im a pashtun, but im sure there are more than that.


They overlap with with other Afghans the most, then with Iranians and Turks, then with NW Indics and Eastern Europeans. Afghan tajiks in general are very close to pashtuns.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 06:00 PM
Now these D-stats below say Georgians are closer to French than to Pashtuns. The D-stat list that had Pashtuns (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7123-Pashtun-deep-ancestry-results-using-Dstats&p=155661&viewfull=1#post155661) "closest to Russians" (actually Kurd-C3 in a statistically insignificant way) didn't even include Georgians and the differences between positions 1 and 13 were statistically insignificant. My point is that Caucasus peoples such as Chechens and Georgians tend to be closer to many Europeans than to Pashtuns, not that Pashtuns are closest to French or whatever. If you want to argue that point provide D-stats or IBS stats that show Pashtuns are closer to Georgians than Greeks, Albanians and French are, and so contradict this list:

.Znertu Mbuti.DG Georgian Chimp 0.3934 95 117288
Greek Mbuti.DG Georgian Chimp 0.3932 100 118109
Albanian Mbuti.DG Georgian Chimp 0.3926 100 118109
.Kurd_C2 Mbuti.DG Georgian Chimp 0.3917 95 117615
.Kurd_C3 Mbuti.DG Georgian Chimp 0.3917 100 117699
French Mbuti.DG Georgian Chimp 0.3913 100 118109
.Mfa Mbuti.DG Georgian Chimp 0.3911 95 116101
Scottish Mbuti.DG Georgian Chimp 0.3901 100 118109
Spanish Mbuti.DG Georgian Chimp 0.3891 100 118109
Pathan Mbuti.DG Georgian Chimp 0.3776 100 118109
Pashtun_Afghan Mbuti.DG Georgian Chimp 0.3767 100 118110

Your point is highly wrong. Firstly the d stat that Kurd shares did indeed include Pathans. And it still placed pashtuns closer to French people than to Georgians. He posted another one last night.

Second of all the d stats were the same for Georgians and Pashtuns.

Third of all, the reference you just shared places pashtuns closer to Georgians than Europeans are because the distance number is smaller than the Europeans. So nice going lol

Coldmountains
08-17-2016, 06:07 PM
Uzbeks of Afganistan are similar to Uzbeks. Tajiks of Afghanistan - to Tajiks. Hazars - to Ughurs. Pashtuns are a mix bag. Most of them look as Pakistani; both are similar to Panjabi of north-western India.

Uzbeks of Afganistan are probably even more East Asian shifted than Uzbeks in Uzbekistan which are often just recently assimilated Tajiks. Soviet and modern Uzbekistan is quite aggressively trying to assimilate Tajiks in Uzbekistan. Tajiks in Afghanistan are extremely diverse and can look like anything.

Tajiks dont have a common identity and all people which speak persian and dont have a tribal identity anymore are called Tajiks . So Tajik is just an umbrella term for many persian speaking groups in Afganistan. They are not necessary related to Tajiks in Tajikistan. Tajiks in northern Afghanistan are very close to Tajiks in Tajikstan but other Tajiks are different. Western Tajiks(Farsiwan) in Herat are shiite unlike most other Tajiks and Pashtuns. They are similar to Iranians in eastern Iran. Tajiks in eastern Afghanistan (Kabul, Panjshir, Parwan,..) are very similar to Pashtuns. They are less east-asian shifted than other Tajiks and more south-asian shifted. They are genetically somewhere between Pamiri and Afgan Pashtuns.

Pashtuns are also extremely diverse but on average they look like dark Caucasians ( like a Chechen/Georgian-Punjabi mix). Southern Pashtuns(mainly Durrani and Ghilzai tribes) are more Caucasus shifted but other Pashtuns more in the northeast are more South Asian shifted but i would still say that a group of Afghan Pashtuns would in most cases pretty much stand out in Punjab and would rather pass in Teheran or Duschanbe. Not primarily because of skin colur but rather because Pashtuns have sharpener faces and look still mainly "West Asians". Pakistani Pashtuns are not automatically more Indic than Afghan Pashtuns. More southwestern living Pakistani Pashtuns are probably less Indic looking than Afghan Pashtun in the northeast. So there is not really a divide between Afghan and Pakistani Pashtuns but rather between northern and southern Pashtuns.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 06:08 PM
Why do you focus on the western/northern Pashtun samples, MyAnthro ? Pashtun south Indian range is 11-36% for example, which is pretty huge for a supposedly related ethnicity.

http://www.harappadna.org/2013/07/pathan-pashtun-admixture-results/

Afghan Tajiks are pretty diverse as well, some score up to 30% East Eurasian.
http://www.harappadna.org/2014/01/afghan-dataset/

Some Afghan Pashtuns (mostly eastern) score 7-10% Higher south Asian than other Afghan Pashtuns(Durrani, Ghilzai), which is a pretty remarkable difference for the same ethnic group within the same country.

Harrapa is outdated and we have iranian neotholic now. No pashtun is 36% south asian. Not even nw indians are.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 06:09 PM
No afghan pashtun is genetically closer to a punjabi than to other afghan pashtuns. What is this nonsense some are saying.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 06:15 PM
Uzbeks of Afganistan are probably even more East Asian shifted than Uzbeks in Uzbekistan which are often just recently assimilated Tajiks. Soviet and modern Uzbekistan is quite aggressively trying to assimilate Tajiks in Uzbekistan. Tajiks in Afghanistan are extremely diverse and can look like anything. Tajiks dont have a common identity and all people which speak persian and dont have a tribal identity anymore are called Tajiks . So Tajik is just an umbrella term for many persian speaking groups in Afhanistan. Tajiks in northern Afghanistan are very close to Tajiks in Tajikstan but other Tajiks are different. Western Tajiks(Farsiwan) in Herat are shiite unlike most other Tajiks and Pashtuns. They are similar to Iranians in eastern Iran. Tajiks in eastern Afghanistan (Kabul, Panjshir, Parwan,..) are very similar to Pashtuns. They are less east-asian shifted than other Tajiks and more south-asian shifted. They are genetically somewhere between Pamiri and Afgan Pashtuns. Pashtuns are also extremely diverse but on average they look like dark Caucasians ( like a Chechen/Georgian-Punjabi mix). Southern Pashtuns(mainly Durrani and Ghilzai tribes) are more Caucasus shifted but other Pashtuns more in the northeast are more South Asian shifted but i would still say that a group of Afghan Pashtuns would in most cases pretty much stand out in Punjab and would rather pass in Teheran or Duschanbe. Not primarily because of skin colur but rather because Pashtuns have sharpener faces and look still mainly "West Asians". Pakistani Pashtuns are not automatically more Indic than Afghan Pashtuns. More southwestern living Pakistani Pashtuns are probably less Indic looking than Afghan Pashtun in the northeast. So there is not really a divide between Afghan and Pakistani Pashtuns but rather between northern and southern Pashtuns.

Pashtuns dont like anything you're describing them as, and Afghan Tajiks aren't between pamiris and pashtuns. All three of those groups genetically cluster together. This is a pamiri tajik oracle for crying outloud


[1,] "Tajik_Pomiri" "0"
[2,] "Pashtun" "7.357"
[3,] "Afghan_Pushtun" "9.2613"
[4,] "Tadjik" "9.688"
[5,] "Pakistani_Pushtun" "16.6862"
[6,] "Pathan" "18.4692"
[7,] "Parsi" "19.037"
[8,] "Burusho" "19.132"
[9,] "Iranian" "23.3765"
[10,] "Uzbek" "24.3134"
[11,] "Jatt-Haryana" "24.596"
[12,] "Jatt-Pahari" "24.9582"
[13,] "Turkmen" "25.0472"
[14,] "Makrani" "25.1914"
[15,] "Punjabi-Gujjar" "25.8254"
[16,] "Urkarah" "26.593"
[17,] "Lak" "26.7623"
[18,] "Sindhi" "26.8825"
[19,] "Tabassaran" "27.5427"
[20,] "Balochi" "27.6667"
[21,] "Stalskoe" "27.9131"
[22,] "Avar" "27.9344"
[23,] "Kurd" "27.9772"
[24,] "Lezgins" "28.0579"
[25,] "Azeri" "28.8006"
[26,] "Azeri_Dagestan" "28.8726"
[27,] "Baku_WGA" "29.3521"
[28,] "Lezgin" "29.5922"
[29,] "Kurds" "29.7181"
[30,] "Jatt-Muslim" "30.2173"
[31,] "GujaratiA_GIH" "30.4158"
[32,] "Uzbekistan_Jew" "30.4507"
[33,] "Mumbai_Jews" "30.8112"
[34,] "Ain_Touta_WGA" "30.8126"
[35,] "Pakistani" "30.9563"
[36,] "Uzbek_WGA" "31.0916"
[37,] "Mishar" "31.5589"
[38,] "Uyghur" "31.7127"
[39,] "Cochin_Jew" "32.1056"
[40,] "Nogai" "32.2401"

[1,] "Tajik_Pomiri" "0"
[2,] "88.2% Pashtun + 11.8% Udmurd" "4.5359"
[3,] "5.3% 1_Malta-1 + 94.7% Pashtun" "4.8962"
[4,] "5.3% 1_AG-2 + 94.7% Pashtun" "4.897"
[5,] "12.6% Komi + 87.4% Pashtun" "5.1148"
[6,] "12.4% Chuvash + 87.6% Pashtun" "5.2004"
[7,] "12.5% Bashkir + 87.5% Pashtun" "5.2677"
[8,] "12.7% Kryashen + 87.3% Pashtun" "5.2738"
[9,] "86.5% Pashtun + 13.5% Tatar" "5.3267"
[10,] "10.9% Maris + 89.1% Pashtun" "5.3597"
[11,] "92.3% Pashtun + 7.7% Tubalar" "5.4035"
[12,] "88.9% Pashtun + 11.1% Saami" "5.417"
[13,] "61.9% Pashtun + 38.1% Tadjik" "5.4653"
[14,] "89.2% Pashtun + 10.8% Saami_WGA" "5.5393"
[15,] "13.2% Mishar + 86.8% Pashtun" "5.6453"
[16,] "11.7% Finn + 88.3% Pashtun" "5.6506"
[17,] "7% Mansi + 93% Pashtun" "5.6525"
[18,] "11.7% Finn-East + 88.3% Pashtun" "5.6687"
[19,] "11.7% Karelian + 88.3% Pashtun" "5.7212"
[20,] "11.4% Finnish_FIN + 88.6% Pashtun" "5.7259"
[21,] "6.1% Hant + 93.9% Pashtun" "5.7637"
[22,] "11.4% Finn-West + 88.6% Pashtun" "5.7663"
[23,] "11.2% Mordovians + 88.8% Pashtun" "5.8158"
[24,] "88.9% Pashtun + 11.1% Vepsa" "5.8197"
[25,] "11.1% North-Russian + 88.9% Pashtun" "5.8335"
[26,] "88.9% Pashtun + 11.1% Russian" "5.8562"
[27,] "89.6% Pashtun + 10.4% Swedish" "5.8963"
[28,] "11.1% Mordovian + 88.9% Pashtun" "5.899"
[29,] "86.3% Pashtun + 13.7% Stalskoe" "5.95"
[30,] "85.7% Pashtun + 14.3% Urkarah" "5.96"
[31,] "5.9% Ket + 94.1% Pashtun" "5.9895"
[32,] "85.1% Pashtun + 14.9% Turkmen" "6.0014"
[33,] "10% Dutch + 90% Pashtun" "6.0121"
[34,] "10.5% Estonian + 89.5% Pashtun" "6.0146"
[35,] "90.1% Pashtun + 9.9% Swede" "6.0148"
[36,] "10.5% Latvian + 89.5% Pashtun" "6.0358"
[37,] "7.6% Hakas + 92.4% Pashtun" "6.0535"
[38,] "11.6% Nogai + 88.4% Pashtun" "6.0597"
[39,] "17.2% Kalash + 82.8% Tadjik" "6.0635"
[40,] "9.6% Icelandic + 90.4% Pashtun" "6.0685"

Volat
08-17-2016, 06:18 PM
Uzbeks of Afganistan are probably even more East Asian shifted than Uzbeks in Uzbekistan which are often just recently assimilated Tajiks. Soviet and modern Uzbekistan is quite aggressively trying to assimilate Tajiks in Uzbekistan. Tajiks in Afghanistan are extremely diverse and can look like anything.

Tajiks dont have a common identity and all people which speak persian and dont have a tribal identity anymore are called Tajiks . So Tajik is just an umbrella term for many persian speaking groups in Afganistan. They are not necessary related to Tajiks in Tajikistan. Tajiks in northern Afghanistan are very close to Tajiks in Tajikstan but other Tajiks are different. Western Tajiks(Farsiwan) in Herat are shiite unlike most other Tajiks and Pashtuns. They are similar to Iranians in eastern Iran. Tajiks in eastern Afghanistan (Kabul, Panjshir, Parwan,..) are very similar to Pashtuns. They are less east-asian shifted than other Tajiks and more south-asian shifted. They are genetically somewhere between Pamiri and Afgan Pashtuns.

Pashtuns are also extremely diverse but on average they look like dark Caucasians ( like a Chechen/Georgian-Punjabi mix). Southern Pashtuns(mainly Durrani and Ghilzai tribes) are more Caucasus shifted but other Pashtuns more in the northeast are more South Asian shifted but i would still say that a group of Afghan Pashtuns would in most cases pretty much stand out in Punjab and would rather pass in Teheran or Duschanbe. Not primarily because of skin colur but rather because Pashtuns have sharpener faces and look still mainly "West Asians". Pakistani Pashtuns are not automatically more Indic than Afghan Pashtuns. More southwestern living Pakistani Pashtuns are probably less Indic looking than Afghan Pashtun in the northeast. So there is not really a divide between Afghan and Pakistani Pashtuns but rather between northern and southern Pashtuns.

I don't have much knowledge and ethnicities and diversities within ethnic groups of Afghanistan. I know there are Tajiks, Uzbeks, Hazars , Turkmens and Pashtuns living in Afghanistan with Pashtun being most numerous in the south of the country. Many Uzbeks, Turkmens and Tajiks escaped sovietisation and collectivisation into Afghanistan during 20s. So I assumed Tajiks, Uzbeks and Turkmens are living in the north of the country near the borders of Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan.


I don’t want to appear ignorant . But how do you determine who is whiter in central Asia? To me all people in the region look similar . Exception are northern Indians and some Pakistani. Hazars look a bit more Mongoloid than others.

Coldmountains
08-17-2016, 06:20 PM
Pashtuns dont like anything you're describing them as, and Afghan Tajiks aren't between pamiris and pashtuns. All three of those groups genetically cluster together. This is a pamiri tajik oracle for crying outloud


[1,] "Tajik_Pomiri" "0"
[2,] "Pashtun" "7.357"
[3,] "Afghan_Pushtun" "9.2613"
[4,] "Tadjik" "9.688"
[5,] "Pakistani_Pushtun" "16.6862"
[6,] "Pathan" "18.4692"
[7,] "Parsi" "19.037"
[8,] "Burusho" "19.132"
[9,] "Iranian" "23.3765"
[10,] "Uzbek" "24.3134"
[11,] "Jatt-Haryana" "24.596"
[12,] "Jatt-Pahari" "24.9582"
[13,] "Turkmen" "25.0472"
[14,] "Makrani" "25.1914"
[15,] "Punjabi-Gujjar" "25.8254"
[16,] "Urkarah" "26.593"
[17,] "Lak" "26.7623"
[18,] "Sindhi" "26.8825"
[19,] "Tabassaran" "27.5427"
[20,] "Balochi" "27.6667"
[21,] "Stalskoe" "27.9131"
[22,] "Avar" "27.9344"
[23,] "Kurd" "27.9772"
[24,] "Lezgins" "28.0579"
[25,] "Azeri" "28.8006"
[26,] "Azeri_Dagestan" "28.8726"
[27,] "Baku_WGA" "29.3521"
[28,] "Lezgin" "29.5922"
[29,] "Kurds" "29.7181"
[30,] "Jatt-Muslim" "30.2173"
[31,] "GujaratiA_GIH" "30.4158"
[32,] "Uzbekistan_Jew" "30.4507"
[33,] "Mumbai_Jews" "30.8112"
[34,] "Ain_Touta_WGA" "30.8126"
[35,] "Pakistani" "30.9563"
[36,] "Uzbek_WGA" "31.0916"
[37,] "Mishar" "31.5589"
[38,] "Uyghur" "31.7127"
[39,] "Cochin_Jew" "32.1056"
[40,] "Nogai" "32.2401"

[1,] "Tajik_Pomiri" "0"
[2,] "88.2% Pashtun + 11.8% Udmurd" "4.5359"
[3,] "5.3% 1_Malta-1 + 94.7% Pashtun" "4.8962"
[4,] "5.3% 1_AG-2 + 94.7% Pashtun" "4.897"
[5,] "12.6% Komi + 87.4% Pashtun" "5.1148"
[6,] "12.4% Chuvash + 87.6% Pashtun" "5.2004"
[7,] "12.5% Bashkir + 87.5% Pashtun" "5.2677"
[8,] "12.7% Kryashen + 87.3% Pashtun" "5.2738"
[9,] "86.5% Pashtun + 13.5% Tatar" "5.3267"
[10,] "10.9% Maris + 89.1% Pashtun" "5.3597"
[11,] "92.3% Pashtun + 7.7% Tubalar" "5.4035"
[12,] "88.9% Pashtun + 11.1% Saami" "5.417"
[13,] "61.9% Pashtun + 38.1% Tadjik" "5.4653"
[14,] "89.2% Pashtun + 10.8% Saami_WGA" "5.5393"
[15,] "13.2% Mishar + 86.8% Pashtun" "5.6453"
[16,] "11.7% Finn + 88.3% Pashtun" "5.6506"
[17,] "7% Mansi + 93% Pashtun" "5.6525"
[18,] "11.7% Finn-East + 88.3% Pashtun" "5.6687"
[19,] "11.7% Karelian + 88.3% Pashtun" "5.7212"
[20,] "11.4% Finnish_FIN + 88.6% Pashtun" "5.7259"
[21,] "6.1% Hant + 93.9% Pashtun" "5.7637"
[22,] "11.4% Finn-West + 88.6% Pashtun" "5.7663"
[23,] "11.2% Mordovians + 88.8% Pashtun" "5.8158"
[24,] "88.9% Pashtun + 11.1% Vepsa" "5.8197"
[25,] "11.1% North-Russian + 88.9% Pashtun" "5.8335"
[26,] "88.9% Pashtun + 11.1% Russian" "5.8562"
[27,] "89.6% Pashtun + 10.4% Swedish" "5.8963"
[28,] "11.1% Mordovian + 88.9% Pashtun" "5.899"
[29,] "86.3% Pashtun + 13.7% Stalskoe" "5.95"
[30,] "85.7% Pashtun + 14.3% Urkarah" "5.96"
[31,] "5.9% Ket + 94.1% Pashtun" "5.9895"
[32,] "85.1% Pashtun + 14.9% Turkmen" "6.0014"
[33,] "10% Dutch + 90% Pashtun" "6.0121"
[34,] "10.5% Estonian + 89.5% Pashtun" "6.0146"
[35,] "90.1% Pashtun + 9.9% Swede" "6.0148"
[36,] "10.5% Latvian + 89.5% Pashtun" "6.0358"
[37,] "7.6% Hakas + 92.4% Pashtun" "6.0535"
[38,] "11.6% Nogai + 88.4% Pashtun" "6.0597"
[39,] "17.2% Kalash + 82.8% Tadjik" "6.0635"
[40,] "9.6% Icelandic + 90.4% Pashtun" "6.0685"
You forget that Pamiri Tajiks have also sigificant South Asian ancestry and some Pamiri languages have even Indic loanwords from Dardic languages. It also depends on which Afghan Pashtun population was used here. I already said before that Afghan Pashtuns are similar to Pamiri but just more indic shifted

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 06:21 PM
I don't have much knowledge and ethnicities and diversities within ethnic groups of Afghanistan. I know there are Tajiks, Uzbeks, Hazars , Turkmens and Pashtuns living in Afghanistan with Pashtun being most numerous in the south of the country. Many Uzbeks, Turkmens and Tajiks escaped sovietisation and collectivisation into Afghanistan during 20s. So I assumed Tajiks, Uzbeks and Turkmens are living in the north of the country near the borders of Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan.

I don’t want to appear ignorant . But how do you determine who is whiter in central Asia? I don“t have much knowledge and ethnicities and diversities within ethnic groups of Afghanistan. I know there are Tajiks, Uzbeks, Hazars , Turkmens and Pashtuns living in Afghanistan with Pashtun being most numerous living in the south of the country. Many Uzbeks, Turkmens and Tajiks escaped Sovietisation and collectivisation into Afghanistan during 20s. So I assumed Tajiks, Uzbeks and Turkmens are living in the north of the countries near the borders of Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan.

I don’t want to appear ignorant . But how do you determine who is whiter in central Asia? To me all people in the region look similar . Exception are northern Indian and some Pakistani. Hazars look a bit more Mongoloid than others.

Pashtuns, Pamiris, and Afghan Tajiks are no whiter than each other. Some have minor south asian influences while others have east asian influences. I have a thread of afghan pashtun phenotypes here if you want to see them. Scroll down a bit more in the thread for a second set of pictures

You will find more blonde pamiris but more red haired pashtuns (excluding henna).


http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/46237-Phenotypical-diversity-of-Afghans-Pashtuns

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 06:25 PM
You forget that Pamiri Tajiks have also sigificant South Asian ancestry and some Pamiri languages have even Indic loanwords from Dardic languages. It also depends on which Afghan Pashtun population was used here. I already said before that Afghan Pashtuns are similar to Pamiri but just more indic shifted

No they're primarily very similar. Afghans don't look indic. You're just saying that because they score minimal amounts of South Asian blood ajd what some oracles say. But you don't have to look like someone you're genetically like. Georgians look like pseudo europeans but are still genetically close to Iranians. Pashtuns look like Iranian, Turks, and Azeris.

Literally everyone i know says pashtuns look like iranians and even indians and pakistanis will tell you afghans look very different from them.

Volat
08-17-2016, 06:25 PM
Pashtuns, Pamiris, and Afghan Tajiks are no whiter than each other. Some have minor south asian influences while others have east asian influences. I have a thread of afghan pashtun phenotypes here if you want to see them. Scroll down a bit more in the thread for a second set of pictures

You will find more blonde pamiris but more red haired pashtuns (excluding henna).


http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/46237-Phenotypical-diversity-of-Afghans-Pashtuns


The pictures appear to be cherry picked with children and people on over-exposed photographs.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 06:28 PM
The pictures appear to be cherry picked with children and people on over-exposed photographs.

Im sorry but how are pictures of university students and verified pictures of pashtuns "cherry picked"? Youre just saying that cause they dont look how you expect them to look. You expect them to just expect them all to be dark skinned, dark haired, and dark eyed. Youre just a racist.

Shaikorth
08-17-2016, 06:29 PM
Your point is highly wrong. Firstly the d stat that Kurd shares did indeed include Pathans. And it still placed pashtuns closer to French people than to Georgians. He posted another one last night.

He posted sheets for Georgians, Chechens and Pathans last hight. Chechens and Georgians were closer to Europeans included in the sheets than to Pathans, Pashtuns and Brahui. There was no Pashtun sheet.



Second of all the d stats were the same for Georgians and Pashtuns.

No.



Third of all, the reference you just shared places pashtuns closer to Georgians than Europeans are because the distance number is smaller than the Europeans. So nice going lol
Higher D-stat means closer so Znertu is closest to Georgians and the gap between Znertu and Scottish is way smaller than the gap between Scottish and Pashtun. You can't even read the thing, just stop and don't bother arguing this issue any more.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 06:31 PM
He posted sheets for Georgians, Chechens and Pathans last hight. Chechens and Georgians were closer to Europeans included in the sheets than to Pathans, Pashtuns and Brahui. There was no Pashtun sheet.




No.


Higher D-stat means closer so Znertu is closest to Georgians and the gap between Znertu and Scottish is way smaller than the gap between Scottish and Pashtun. You can't even read the thing, just stop and don't bother arguing this issue any more.

Yeah they were, and you clesrly have an agenda, because you deny the pashtun d stats but clearly ignore the faulty errors in the georgian. You just reversed it to make them look closer but the numbers are still there. Where is the link to your source anyways?

Volat
08-17-2016, 06:32 PM
Im sorry but how are pictures of university students and verified pictures of pashtuns "cherry picked"? Youre just saying that cause they dont look how you expect them to look. You expect them to just expect them all to be dark skinned, dark haired, and dark eyed. Youre just a racist.

I caught a taxi once with a driver from Panjab looking similar to the students on the photograph.

Tag Heuer
08-17-2016, 06:33 PM
Pashtuns, Pamiris, and Afghan Tajiks are no whiter than each other. Some have minor south asian influences while others have east asian influences. I have a thread of afghan pashtun phenotypes here if you want to see them. Scroll down a bit more in the thread for a second set of pictures

You will find more blonde pamiris but more red haired pashtuns (excluding henna).


http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/46237-Phenotypical-diversity-of-Afghans-Pashtuns
They don't look Caucasoid

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 06:33 PM
I caught a taxi once with a driver from Panjab looking similar to the students on the photograph.

Then hes atypical. Those students mostly look like Turks, Persians, and south caucasians besides afghans of course.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 06:34 PM
They don't look Caucasoid

Yeah they do, troll

Tag Heuer
08-17-2016, 06:35 PM
Yeah they do, troll

Lol, ok. To which Caucasoid cluster they belong then? Central, Pyatigorsk-mix or Daghestani cluster?

Shaikorth
08-17-2016, 06:36 PM
Yeah they were, and you clesrly have an agenda, because you deny the pashtun d stats but clearly ignore the faulty errors in the georgian. You just reversed it to make them look closer but the numbers are still there. Where is the link to your source anyways?

Do you have anything but bullshit left?

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 06:40 PM
Lol, ok. To which Caucasoid cluster they belong then? Central, Pyatigorsk-mix or Daghestani cluster?

Caucasoid and caucasian arent the same thing, Dzokhar Tzarnev.

Lol yeah, this chechen boston bomber is so "European" looking and totally looks more socttish and french than afghan LOL

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/media/images/81405000/jpg/_81405380_166984823.jpg

Tag Heuer
08-17-2016, 06:41 PM
Caucasoid and caucasian arent the same thing, Dzokhar Tzarnev.

Lol yeah, this chechen boston bomber is so "European" looking and totally looks more socttish and french than afghan LOL

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/media/images/81405000/jpg/_81405380_166984823.jpg

His mother is Daghestani, just so you know. You didn't answer the question.

Coldmountains
08-17-2016, 06:42 PM
I don't have much knowledge and ethnicities and diversities within ethnic groups of Afghanistan. I know there are Tajiks, Uzbeks, Hazars , Turkmens and Pashtuns living in Afghanistan with Pashtun being most numerous in the south of the country. Many Uzbeks, Turkmens and Tajiks escaped sovietisation and collectivisation into Afghanistan during 20s. So I assumed Tajiks, Uzbeks and Turkmens are living in the north of the country near the borders of Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan.


I don’t want to appear ignorant . But how do you determine who is whiter in central Asia? To me all people in the region look similar . Exception are northern Indians and some Pakistani. Hazars look a bit more Mongoloid than others.

Hazara are similar to Uyghurs. They are descendants of turco-mongolic soldiers which settled in Central Afghanistan (Bamyan). Today they are speaking persian and are Shiite muslims but untill recently some of them spoke still a mongolic language. I would say they are half East Asian and half Iranic genetically . Most of the look somehow mongolid but some can look like Tajiks and Pashtuns. In the past they populated more areas in Afghanistan but they were persecuted and driven out of some places. Many "caucasoid" Afghans are racist towards them.

Some Tajik and Uzbeks in northern Afghanistan are indeed descendants of refugees from Tajikistan and Uzbekistan which tried to escape Sovietisation but i think the majority of Tajiks and Uzbeks is of local origin. Actually Tajiks and Uzbeks are more native to northern Afghanistan than Pashtuns which just recently migrated to places like Kunduz. In the end most caucasoid Central Asians are simiar to each other but Pashtuns, Kalash, Nuristani and other Hindukush people seem to have sharper, darker and more "archaic" features than Tajiks for example which are lighter and have softer featutes but this is just my opinion. There are more pseudo-euro even somehow east european looking people in Tajikistan and northern Afghanistan. Tajiks and especially Pamiri can have more NE European dna than South Italians so many of them would somehow pass as Europeans

jesus
08-17-2016, 06:43 PM
Uzbeks of Afganistan are probably even more East Asian shifted than Uzbeks in Uzbekistan which are often just recently assimilated Tajiks. Soviet and modern Uzbekistan is quite aggressively trying to assimilate Tajiks in Uzbekistan. Tajiks in Afghanistan are extremely diverse and can look like anything.

Tajiks dont have a common identity and all people which speak persian and dont have a tribal identity anymore are called Tajiks . So Tajik is just an umbrella term for many persian speaking groups in Afganistan. They are not necessary related to Tajiks in Tajikistan. Tajiks in northern Afghanistan are very close to Tajiks in Tajikstan but other Tajiks are different. Western Tajiks(Farsiwan) in Herat are shiite unlike most other Tajiks and Pashtuns. They are similar to Iranians in eastern Iran. Tajiks in eastern Afghanistan (Kabul, Panjshir, Parwan,..) are very similar to Pashtuns. They are less east-asian shifted than other Tajiks and more south-asian shifted. They are genetically somewhere between Pamiri and Afgan Pashtuns.

Pashtuns are also extremely diverse but on average they look like dark Caucasians ( like a Chechen/Georgian-Punjabi mix). Southern Pashtuns(mainly Durrani and Ghilzai tribes) are more Caucasus shifted but other Pashtuns more in the northeast are more South Asian shifted but i would still say that a group of Afghan Pashtuns would in most cases pretty much stand out in Punjab and would rather pass in Teheran or Duschanbe. Not primarily because of skin colur but rather because Pashtuns have sharpener faces and look still mainly "West Asians". Pakistani Pashtuns are not automatically more Indic than Afghan Pashtuns. More southwestern living Pakistani Pashtuns are probably less Indic looking than Afghan Pashtun in the northeast. So there is not really a divide between Afghan and Pakistani Pashtuns but rather between northern and southern Pashtuns.

The uzbeks in Afghanistans are actually less East Eurasian admixed than Uzbeks from Uzbekistan. Afghan Turkmen and Uzbekistan's Turkmen are more east Eurasian than Turkmen from Turkmenistan. The divide between Pashtuns is quite interesting, since a lot of those tribes usually claim ancestry from the same person/tribe.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 06:43 PM
Do you have anything but bullshit left?

No clearly you have sll the bullshit. You havent provided links to your sources, expkain how it is physically or genetically possible for afghans to be farther from georgians geneticslly and though afghans and georgians share far more ancestry with each other than they do with French people. You just sit here and whine about how d stats are just better like all the other members on this site who claim to be not pseudoscientific are totally pseudoscientific

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 06:45 PM
The uzbeks in Afghanistans are actually less East Eurasian admixed than Uzbeks from Uzbekistan. Afghan Turkmen and Uzbekistan's Turkmen are more east Eurasian than Turkmen from Turkmenistan. The divide between Pashtuns is quite interesting, since a lot of those tribes usually claim ancestry from the same person/tribe.

There is no divide between pashtuns to make them closer to any ethnicity but themselves. All your claims are based off of old harrappa results and some of them arent even afghan pashtuns but "pathans"

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 06:45 PM
His mother is Daghestani, just so you know. You didn't answer the question.

Thats still similar. You guys dont look more french or scottish than you do like persians or afghans. Georgians are even darker.

And they look irano-afghan

Tag Heuer
08-17-2016, 06:49 PM
Thats the same thing. You guys dont look more french or scottish than you do like persians or afghans

The same thing? Dark Georgians? Lmao. No more questions, educate yourself before talking bs.

Shaikorth
08-17-2016, 06:51 PM
No clearly you have sll the bullshit. You havent provided links to your sources, expkain how it is physically or genetically possible for afghans to be farther from georgians geneticslly and though afghans and georgians share far more ancestry with each other than they do with French people. You just sit here and whine about how d stats are just better like all the other members on this site who claim to be not pseudoscientific are totally pseudoscientific

The D-stats referenced are in this thread, except the Pashtun list which you made up. Re: what is proper science you might want to go looking for the peer reviewed papers using them gedmatch oracles instead of wasting time here.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 06:58 PM
The same thing? Dark Georgians? Lmao. No more questions, educate yourself before talking bs.

I said darker, not dark. And not necessairly dark, but more near eastern looking than scottish

jesus
08-17-2016, 06:58 PM
Harrapa is outdated and we have iranian neotholic now. No pashtun is 36% south asian. Not even nw indians are.

It doesn't matter if it's outdated or not, it does a good job at showing Pashtun diversity. NW Indians do get 36% south Indian on Harappa. Just because a calculator is new doesn't mean that it's better than all other calculators.

But here you go, a new calculator (Near east K13)

Eastern Afghan Pashtun, from your region. Gets Sindhi, GujaratiA, GujaratiB, and Punjabis before most Iranian groups.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 IRAN_NEOLITHIC 37.47
2 ANCESTRAL_INDIAN 25.68
3 CHG_EEF 13.11
4 EHG 9.87
5 NATUFIAN 4.61
6 KARITIANA 2.93
7 SHG_WHG 2.78
8 POLAR 1.44
9 SE_ASIAN 1.26
10 SIBERIAN 0.87

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Pathan 6.43
2 Kalash 7.55
3 Pashtun_Afghan 8.12
4 Burusho 10.47
5 Kurd_SE 12.37
6 Sindhi 13.09
7 Balochi 13.26
8 Brahui 14.53
9 Makrani 14.94
10 GujaratiA 14.94
11 Iranian_Bandari 15.03
12 Tajik 16.93
13 GujaratiB 20.24
14 Punjabi 21.99
15 Iranian_Shirazi 22.03
16 Iranian_Mazandarani 22.68
17 Iranian 22.9
18 Kurd_C 24.71
19 Iranian_Lori 25.71
20 GujaratiC 26.7





Durrani


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 IRAN_NEOLITHIC 41.5
2 ANCESTRAL_INDIAN 16.8
3 CHG_EEF 16
4 EHG 11.83
5 NATUFIAN 3.95
6 SIBERIAN 3.47
7 SE_ASIAN 2.19
8 SHG_WHG 1.31
9 PAPUAN 1.1
10 SUB_SAHARAN 0.95
11 ANATOLIA_NEOLITHIC 0.9

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Pashtun_Afghan 6.23
2 Kalash 9.26
3 Iranian_Bandari 10.93
4 Pathan 13.35
5 Makrani 13.69
6 Balochi 13.83
7 Tajik 14.01
8 Brahui 14.94
9 Kurd_SE 15.13
10 Iranian_Mazandarani 15.89
11 Iranian_Shirazi 17.37
12 Iranian 17.82
13 Burusho 18.56
14 Kurd_C 18.8
15 Iranian_Lori 19.76
16 Sindhi 20.55
17 Azeri 22.36
18 GujaratiA 23.46
19 Lezgin 23.81
20 Abkhasian 24.86


Eastern Pashtun distance from GujaratiA = 14.9
Southern Durrani Pashtun distance from GujaratiA = 23.46

Facts are facts bro. You can't change the numbers.

Tag Heuer
08-17-2016, 07:01 PM
Don't feed the troll

Volat
08-17-2016, 07:01 PM
The uzbeks in Afghanistans are actually less East Eurasian admixed than Uzbeks from Uzbekistan. Afghan Turkmen and Uzbekistan's Turkmen are more east Eurasian than Turkmen from Turkmenistan. The divide between Pashtuns is quite interesting, since a lot of those tribes usually claim ancestry from the same person/tribe.

Uzbeks of Uzbekistan are a diverse group. Most European looking are Uzbeks of Ferghana valley - former khanate of Kokand . Further west into steppes and deserts Mongoloid features are more dominant influenced by neighbouring southern Kazakhs and Karakalpaks.

In general , Tajiks are Turkmens are less mongoloid than Uzbeks. In several tests Turkmens turned to be more similar to Tajiks than to Uzbeks at genome-wide comparison. Turkmens have a history of kidnapping and marrying Iranian girls.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 07:03 PM
The D-stats referenced are in this thread, except the Pashtun list which you made up. Re: what is proper science you might want to go looking for the peer reviewed papers using them gedmatch oracles instead of wasting time here.

I didnt make up the pashtun list, kurd posted them and said that was the closest population to pashtuns. Pathans arent the same as Afghan Pashtuns and you know that. Why don't you cite the source to the last reference you posted?

surbakhunWeesste
08-17-2016, 07:05 PM
Tribal structure constitutes for varying results amongst Pashtuns. Durranis, Ghilzais seem to cluster together in comparison to eastern Pashtun tribes who show affiliation to indic and dardic groups, however we find outlier groups/individuals perhaps because of migration and exogamy.

Secondly, not all dstats, admixtures etc are peer reviewed here, I do not understand why people treat it like a Universal truth. One needs to first learn how a scientific tool works before even attempting to analyze its results. But this thread has become a troll fest.

Shaikorth
08-17-2016, 07:07 PM
I didnt make up the pashtun list, kurd posted them and said that was the closest population to pashtuns. Pathans arent the same as Afghan Pashtuns and you know that. Why don't you cite the source to the last reference you posted?

Go back a few pages and you'll see the stats Kurd posted, and now they say Georgians and Chechens are closer to Europeans than to Pashtuns. And link the Pashtun list you say Kurd posted last night too, if you can find it.

surbakhunWeesste
08-17-2016, 07:08 PM
Uzbeks of Uzbekistan are a diverse group. Most European looking are Uzbeks of Ferghana valley - former khanate of Kokand . Further west into steppes and deserts Mongoloid features are more dominant influenced by neighbouring southern Kazakhs and Karakalpaks.

In general , Tajiks are Turkmens are less mongoloid than Uzbeks. In several tests Turkmens turned to be more similar to Tajiks than to Uzbeks at genome-wide comparison. Turkmens have a history of kidnapping and marrying Iranian girls.

We have Tajikified Uzbeks, Uzbekified Tajiks, Pashunified Tajiks, Tajikified Pashtuns, Pashtunfied dardics etc in Afghanistan.

jesus
08-17-2016, 07:08 PM
Uzbeks of Uzbekistan are a diverse group. Most European looking are Uzbeks of Ferghana valley - former khanate of Kokand . Further west into steppes and deserts Mongoloid features are more dominant influenced by neighbouring southern Kazakhs and Karakalpaks.

In general , Tajiks are Turkmens are less mongoloid than Uzbeks. In several tests Turkmens turned to be more similar to Tajiks than to Uzbeks at genome-wide comparison. Turkmens have a history of kidnapping and marrying Iranian girls.

Makes since, since Karakalpaks score much higher east eurasian than Uzbeks (based on MDLP k13)

vettor
08-17-2016, 07:10 PM
Lol, ok. To which Caucasoid cluster they belong then? Central, Pyatigorsk-mix or Daghestani cluster?

Balkar cluster

Tag Heuer
08-17-2016, 07:12 PM
I said darker, not dark. And not necessairly dark, but more near eastern looking than scottish

why are you always referring to Scottish? leave them alone. Georgians might look irano-afghan on the borders with Turkey, Armenia and Azerbaijan. You'd barely find anyone Irano-afghan-looking Georgian among Tush, Svan or Khevsur.

There is huge difference between Chechens and for example Dargins or Lak people, cherry-picked Dzhokhar looks like his Daghestani relatives, but you obviously know nothing about that, just want us to be "close to Afghanis" lol.
Here is Dzhokhar's mother and father:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/2dvOWj_FUCM/maxresdefault.jpg

Tag Heuer
08-17-2016, 07:13 PM
Balkar cluster

There is no "Balkar cluster".

Magnetic
08-17-2016, 07:18 PM
why are you always referring to Scottish? leave them alone. Georgians might look irano-afghan on the borders with Turkey, Armenia and Azerbaijan. You'd barely find anyone Irano-afghan-looking Georgian among Tush, Svan or Khevsur.

There is huge difference between Chechens and for example Dargins or Lak people, cherry-picked Dzhokhar looks like his Daghestani relatives, but you obviously know nothing about that, just want us to be "close to Afghanis" lol.
Here is Dzhokhar's mother and father:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/2dvOWj_FUCM/maxresdefault.jpg

Iranoafghan is rather a name for eastern iranid variant (mostly common in iran especially east iran and afghanistan/pakistan) and it barely exists in Turkey . there is Iranid ( aka west Iranid) in southeast Turkey among Kurds but it is not that common anywhere north of Batman/Diyarbakir tbh. which makes even Iranid an atypical type for Georgians self explanatory nevermind iranoafghan

surbakhunWeesste
08-17-2016, 07:21 PM
why are you always referring to Scottish? leave them alone. Georgians might look irano-afghan on the borders with Turkey, Armenia and Azerbaijan. You'd barely find anyone Irano-afghan-looking Georgian among Tush, Svan or Khevsur.

There is huge difference between Chechens and for example Dargins or Lak people, cherry-picked Dzhokhar looks like his Daghestani relatives, but you obviously know nothing about that, just want us to be "close to Afghanis" lol.
Here is Dzhokhar's mother and father:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/2dvOWj_FUCM/maxresdefault.jpg

That's the currency of Afghanistan, nationals are called Afghans.
Would you call U.S Americans dollars?

jesus
08-17-2016, 07:24 PM
Iranoafghan is rather a name for eastern iranid variant (mostly common in iran especially east iran and afghanistan/pakistan) and it barely exists in Turkey . there is Iranid ( aka west Iranid) in southeast Turkey among Kurds but it is not that common anywhere north of Batman/Diyarbakir tbh. which makes even Iranid an atypical type for Georgians self explanatory nevermind iranoafghan

That's outdated pseudoscience brah. Iranid, Anatoloid, armenoid etc are all outdated useless terms in the modern world.

Volat
08-17-2016, 07:24 PM
We have Tajikified Uzbeks, Uzbekified Tajiks, Pashunified Tajiks, Tajikified Pashtuns, Pashtunfied dardics etc in Afghanistan.

Interesting! In Uzbekistan Tajiks and Uzbeks don't like mixing. There are flame wars on forum discussions with Tajiks being proud Iranic of Aryan descent. :) But there're intermarriages. The city of Samarkand (ancient name Arkanda visited by Alexander the Great) is one of the largest and beautiful in Uzbekistan. The largest ethnic group of the city are Tajiks.

Magnetic
08-17-2016, 07:26 PM
That's outdated pseudoscience brah. Iranid, Anatoloid, armenoid etc are all outdated useless terms in the modern world.

I believe that phenotypes are mostly not pseudoscience :) I agree that it partially is but there are too many things that "fit" and make differentiating possible to just dump it as complete pseudoscience

khanabadoshi
08-17-2016, 07:26 PM
The original scope of this thread was asking whether or not Caucasians identified more with Europe or with the Middle East. That was answered by Tag Heuer and XooR.
I think everyone from a 2000-mile radius and in the Muslim World in general has always considered the Caucasia it's own distinct region. No one calls it Shaam, Khaleej, Maghreb, Khorasan, Hind, Yunan, Almani, etc... -- we all call it Shishaan or Dagestan.

Now it's gone on a tangent comparing Afghanistan and the Caucasus. Why? I don't know. There are a lot of populations between the two that make for better comparisons, respectively.

Tag Heuer is Chechen -- he disagrees with you.
Kurd makes half our calculators -- he posted Dstats.
Shaikorth interprets Dstats and f3s for fun during breakfast -- he disagrees with you.
SurbakhunWeesetee is arguably the "resident" Pashtun member of this forum -- she disagrees with you.
Coldmountains is like an encyclopedia when it comes to Central Asia -- he disagrees with you.
I compile everyone's results and plot them on PCAs -- I disagree with you.

If you are going to argue that Georgians are closer to X than other Europeans, then you are better off picking a random group like Iranian Shirazi or Turkish than Pashtuns. They are considerably closer on any plot devised by anyone ever. Or perhaps ask, who is closer to a Kurd, a Pashtun or a Georgian?

It's better to cut your losses and bow out of this conversation. Accusing people of trolling isn't going to bode well for you. This is a much more serious forum than the ones you are used to and I can say honestly, this is the first time I've seen the word "troll" posted in a thread. If you want to discuss things, then discuss, but at least attempt to be impartial. If you ask a question, don't be upset when someone doesn't give the answer you were looking for; post data and stats to back up why you believe what you do and leave it at that.

Tag Heuer
08-17-2016, 07:29 PM
Iranoafghan is rather a name for eastern iranid variant (mostly common in iran especially east iran and afghanistan/pakistan) and it barely exists in Turkey . there is Iranid ( aka west Iranid) in southeast Turkey among Kurds but it is not that common anywhere north of Batman/Diyarbakir tbh. which makes even Iranid an atypical type for Georgians self explanatory nevermind iranoafghan

Never thought Caucasians look like Afghanis, I thought we belong to Caucasoid or so called Balkan-Caucasian race, but now MyAnthropologies shed light on that issue.

Tag Heuer
08-17-2016, 07:34 PM
The original scope of this thread was asking whether or not Caucasians identified more with Europe or with the Middle East. That was answered by Tag Heuer and XooR.
I think everyone from a 2000-mile radius and in the Muslim World in general has always considered the Caucasia it's own distinct region. No one calls it Shaam, Khaleej, Maghreb, Khorasan, Hind, Yunan, Almani, etc... -- we all call it Shishaan or Dagestan.

Now it's gone on a tangent comparing Afghanistan and the Caucasus. Why? I don't know. There are a lot of populations between the two that make for better comparisons, respectively.

Tag Heuer is Chechen -- he disagrees with you.
Kurd makes half our calculators -- he posted Dstats.
Shaikorth interprets Dstats and f3s for fun during breakfast -- he disagrees with you.
SurbakhunWeesetee is arguably the "resident" Pashtun member of this forum -- she disagrees with you.
Coldmountains is like an encyclopedia when it comes to Central Asia -- he disagrees with you.
I compile everyone's results and plot them on PCAs -- I disagree with you.

If you are going to argue that Georgians are closer to X than other Europeans, then you are better off picking a random group like Iranian Shirazi or Turkish than Pashtuns. They are considerably closer on any plot devised by anyone ever. Or perhaps ask, who is closer to a Kurd, a Pashtun or a Georgian?

It's better to cut your losses and bow out of this conversation. Accusing people of trolling isn't going to bode well for you. This is a much more serious forum than the ones you are used to and I can say honestly, this is the first time I've seen the word "troll" posted in a thread. If you want to discuss things, then discuss, but at least attempt to be impartial. If you ask a question, don't be upset when someone doesn't give the answer you were looking for; post data and stats to back up why you believe what you do and leave it at that.

+1. On that note thread can be closed.

Magnetic
08-17-2016, 07:35 PM
Never thought Caucasians look like Pakistanis or Afghanis, I thought we belong to Caucasoid or so called Balkan-Caucasian race, but now MyAnthropologies shed light on that issue.

there is a misunderstanding . there are afghans who look like caucasus people . there is even a decent amount of afghans who look like russians, ukranians etc. myanthropologies himself for example looks pontid and could easily pass west until balkans (I saw only 1 avatar of him but still) . but they have also many types that dont exist in the caucasus at all . you will have more caucasus people who will pass as afghans than afghans passing in the caucasus . but saying that afghans and chechens look similar in general is a BIG stretch

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 07:43 PM
The original scope of this thread was asking whether or not Caucasians identified more with Europe or with the Middle East. That was answered by Tag Heuer and XooR.
I think everyone from a 2000-mile radius and in the Muslim World in general has always considered the Caucasia it's own distinct region. No one calls it Shaam, Khaleej, Maghreb, Khorasan, Hind, Yunan, Almani, etc... -- we all call it Shishaan or Dagestan.

Now it's gone on a tangent comparing Afghanistan and the Caucasus. Why? I don't know. There are a lot of populations between the two that make for better comparisons, respectively.

Tag Heuer is Chechen -- he disagrees with you.
Kurd makes half our calculators -- he posted Dstats.
Shaikorth interprets Dstats and f3s for fun during breakfast -- he disagrees with you.
SurbakhunWeesetee is arguably the "resident" Pashtun member of this forum -- she disagrees with you.
Coldmountains is like an encyclopedia when it comes to Central Asia -- he disagrees with you.
I compile everyone's results and plot them on PCAs -- I disagree with you.

If you are going to argue that Georgians are closer to X than other Europeans, then you are better off picking a random group like Iranian Shirazi or Turkish than Pashtuns. They are considerably closer on any plot devised by anyone ever. Or perhaps ask, who is closer to a Kurd, a Pashtun or a Georgian?

It's better to cut your losses and bow out of this conversation. Accusing people of trolling isn't going to bode well for you. This is a much more serious forum than the ones you are used to and I can say honestly, this is the first time I've seen the word "troll" posted in a thread. If you want to discuss things, then discuss, but at least attempt to be impartial. If you ask a question, don't be upset when someone doesn't give the answer you were looking for; post data and stats to back up why you believe what you do and leave it at that.

A lot of he people who disgaree with me are trolls and have been wrong about the history of afghans numerous times. I know more about the historu of Afghanistan than coldmountains does.

He wrongfully claimed that if Afghanistan wasnt islamic it wouldn't be westbasian or that we would have hindu names when he is completely wrong and ignoring the iranic/afghan influence on india and the long iranian influence in afghanistan dating back to scythians.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 07:44 PM
there is a misunderstanding . there are afghans who look like caucasus people . there is even a decent amount of afghans who look like russians, ukranians etc. myanthropologies himself for example looks pontid and could easily pass west until balkans (I saw only 1 avatar of him but still) . but they have also many types that dont exist in the caucasus at all . you will have more caucasus people who will pass as afghans than afghans passing in the caucasus . but saying that afghans and chechens look similar in general is a BIG stretch

Of course we don't look similar. I was just saying we are more similar to each other than to Europeans.

Tag Heuer
08-17-2016, 07:47 PM
there is a misunderstanding . there are afghans who look like caucasus people . there is even a decent amount of afghans who look like russians, ukranians etc. myanthropologies himself for example looks pontid and could easily pass west until balkans (I saw only 1 avatar of him but still) . but they have also many types that dont exist in the caucasus at all . you will have more caucasus people who will pass as afghans than afghans passing in the caucasus . but saying that afghans and chechens look similar in general is a BIG stretch

I've seen those Russian-looking Afghanis pics, but they are usually cherry-picked, and mostly Afghanis don't look like that. Afghanis do not belong to Balkan-Caucasian race either, maybe some of them might pass in Russia, but not in Caucasus. I've seen a lot of Afghanis in Abu-Dhabi, Dubai, none of them looked like Caucasian. Again, there might be some exceptions.
I didn't find anyone of them who looked like those average Chechens:
http://vasi.net/uploads/posts/sended/1336262261_x_387e0f31.jpg
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/boy_from_grozny/32915420/62188/62188_600.jpg
http://www.chechentourism.ru/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/chechnya-history-01.jpg
http://kavpolit.com/media/thumbs/630_380/6b/39/d5/6b39d51e39c444851794c7d928a25da4.jpg
http://img11.nnm.me/3/1/e/3/8/5a074c5fdd84bfe34fffd43a9cc.jpg

Magnetic
08-17-2016, 07:47 PM
Of course we don't look similar. I was just saying we are more similar to each other than to Europeans.

I can not agree with that . but lets just agree to disagree :)

surbakhunWeesste
08-17-2016, 07:49 PM
Interesting! In Uzbekistan Tajiks and Uzbeks don't like mixing. There are flame wars on forum discussions with Tajiks being proud Iranic of Aryan descent. :) But there're intermarriages. The city of Samarkand (ancient name Arkanda visited by Alexander the Great) is one of the largest and beautiful in Uzbekistan. The largest ethnic group of the city are Tajiks.

There are flame wars everywhere even amongst Afghan Tajiks; Afghan Pashtuns, Pakistani Pashtuns. It definitely roots to certain beliefs, prejudice, nationalism, ethnocentrism etc. The unification of many people into certain groups and then intermarrying actually makes sense when discussing varying results, haplogroups etc. We have Seriakis/hindokwans who are assimilated into Pashtun tribes now, we have Nuristanis who identify as Pashtuns, I don’t know much about their genetic admixture though. Many Pashtuns in Kabul are known to be Tajikified … we have certain cliché’s which in not always true, hence flame wars, also some in hearat, Farah, Kunduz…
Some Afghan Uzbeks are actually Tajiks and vice versa like I aforementioned and they do intermarry. Quite some Afghan Uzbeks were in the army; ironically they also have the last name Mamoor.
We have nasty tribal feuds amongst tribal Pashtuns in Afghanistan till date despite the imported war from outside, much of which has changed over time now. Still, if you go to Kandahar you will mostly find Durranis, Ghilzais, few other Pashtun groups like Wardakis, Yousefzais, etc hazaras who are Aimaks/Qizilbash… Sometimes these groups get together as a provincial/village clique against say someone from Laghman. They will identify as Kandahari, speak Southern Pashto, etc etc. We also have people who mix, but it depends on family, town.

Hazaras: oppressed previously by Tajiks and Pashtuns but in general they are the most educated Afghans as of now. I wouldn’t dig into rubbish info provided in most forums on the web, cringe worthy topics and dales flags fueled by a bias mostly.

We have diaspora who perhaps will mix with other Afghans or other ethnic groups. Most of the genetic data that you will find on these forums comes from diaspora Afghans.

Kandahar's ancient name is Arachosia as well Hellenized name, many Afghans believed that Pashtuns were greeks etc, provided genetics says otherwise, we also have ancient folklore etc etc.

MyAnthropologies
08-17-2016, 07:50 PM
We have Tajikified Uzbeks, Uzbekified Tajiks, Pashunified Tajiks, Tajikified Pashtuns, Pashtunfied dardics etc in Afghanistan.

Your claim is highly ignorant and you need to brush up on your knowledge on the history of Pashtunization. The only tribe of Pashtuns in Afghanistan that are pashtunized are the Khilji, and they are assimilated Turkics. Other than that, in Peshwar, Pakistan, there were pashtunized punjabs. There were some pashtunified Tajiks as well, but that is it. Nobody in modern day Afghanistan is a pashtunized dardic or indic.

surbakhunWeesste
08-17-2016, 07:57 PM
Your claim is highly ignorant and you need to brush up on your knowledge on the history of Pashtunization. The only tribe of Pashtuns in Afghanistan that are pashtunized are the Khilji, and they are assimilated Turkics. Other than that, in Peshwar, Pakistan, there were pashtunized punjabs. There were some pashtunified Tajiks as well, but that is it. Nobody in modern day Afghanistan is a pashtunized dardic or indic.

That makes me think, you probably could be an indic dard who got Pashtunfied or who knows what you are. Since you wouldn't even provide your results and instead you paraded my family's results around just to fulfill your cringeworthy agenda.. The joke is on you. I doubt you are even an Afghan. I know Pakistani Punajabis and even Kurd here who can speak Pashto and or dari, you are just a troll imposter. You probably don't even know how Afghanistan looks like or how Afghans who still live there look like. I am not sure why you haven't been banned yet.

Moderator
08-17-2016, 08:01 PM
The OP has been permanently banned and this thread will now be closed. If you wish to continue certain aspects of the discussion contained in this thread, please create a new thread. Thank you for your cooperation.