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vineviz
08-07-2012, 11:09 PM
Rich doesn't want to join this forum (yet) so I'm posting his message about DF13


*The Current State of L21 (07 August 2012): The discovery of the SNP DF13 has split L21 into a very large DF13+ group and a thus far much smaller DF13- group. All of the known L21 subclades except DF63 are DF13+, meaning they are downstream of DF13, as well as L21.

If you are L21+ and have not yet tested positive for one of the L21 subclades, you should test for DF13.

If you get a DF13+ result, then you can focus on testing for the known DF13+ subclades: DF23, L513, L96, L144, Z255, Z253, DF21, L371, and DF41. DF49 is thought to be between DF13 and DF23, but that has not been confirmed yet. If you get a positive result for one of those subclades, then you can focus on the branches of those subclades. If you have already tested positive for one of the DF13 subclades, you do not need to test for DF13.

If you get a DF13- result, you should test for DF63. Thus far, it is the only known subclade of L21 that is DF13-.

It is possible to be both DF13- and DF63-, however. We have a few men in that category already.

I realize much if not all of this has been discussed here before, but I wanted to lay it all out in one place in summary form, so that L21+ men or their sponsors who are not yet aware of it can see it.

MJost
08-26-2012, 06:43 AM
I have pulled the DF13 XSubclades & XPredicted Subclades a short time ago and created a new Fluxus. I have layed out the best set of branches for what I call the Right main Branch which is the Scots 1030-A-Sc Cluster some pre branches. Download and then Rotate the PDF image 90 degress for a better view or just print it out. Screen zoom allows better viewing. I have been working on the Left side view of the remaining DF13 xSubs.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNZkQtNFZoc051MXc/edit


Note there are two other section branches shown on page three and four which have the following varieties shown.

From node m479: 2223, 1214, 1130-A-1, 144-1399(missed removing these guys but this was interesting though), 2323, 2510, 141410.

From Node m331: 1212, 1424, 1609, 1222, 711, 1024, 45510, 2217-B and 101922.

The last PDF page show the entire main right branch as plotted.

I uses the 30 year generation when I calculated the years between mutations from MarkoH's newest rates.

CumRates% RatePerEvent #ofTransmissionsPerMutationAtMutation Rate PerSTRMutation(BE) PerMutatationAt25yrGen PerMutatationAt30yrGen
0.172844 0.002580 388 5.8 145 174

MJost

MJost
09-03-2012, 05:16 AM
Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?

I made a list back around the first part on August of the DF13* xsubclades xPredicted subclades and ran a fluxus on those 618 haplotypes rooted with L21. I created three groups as they filled the screen, Left Right and bottom groups. The right group is mainly the very large Scots variety 1030-A-Sc.

This Right page has several varieties shown: From node m479: 2223, 1214, 1130-A-1, 144-1399(missed removing these guys but this was interesting though), 2323, 2510, 141410.

From Node m331: varieties 1212, 1424, 1609, 1222, 711, 1024, 45510, 2217-B and 101922.




The left PDF contains most of the 1511's. The bottom section was split into A, B and C pdf's.

'BottA' page has these varities 1424, 1014,1810, 1609, 1130-A-2, 2510, 9910, 2410, 1066A, 1310, 1523, 1221, 2113, 643, 14611

'BottB' contains these varities: 1415, 111311, 1528, 111314, 1111E, 45410, 1114, 1123, 49-1411, 1199, 25911, 9926, 1014-A, 49-1226, 2517, 1111

'BottC' has 9919(mostly), 1523, 1221, 13-526, 91612, 921, 1114, 1017, 1613, 9915, 1423

They are posted on Yahoo but here is a folder with the five PDFs in my Google documents storage

https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNbExVSXJsWUMxVzA/edit


MJost

Rory Cain
02-19-2013, 02:40 AM
Re: DF13* (xSubclades) What's The Status?

I made a list back around the first part on August of the DF13* xsubclades xPredicted subclades and ran a fluxus on those 618 haplotypes rooted with L21. I created three groups as they filled the screen, Left Right and bottom groups. The right group is mainly the very large Scots variety 1030-A-Sc.

This Right page has several varieties shown: From node m479: 2223, 1214, 1130-A-1, 144-1399(missed removing these guys but this was interesting though), 2323, 2510, 141410.

From Node m331: varieties 1212, 1424, 1609, 1222, 711, 1024, 45510, 2217-B and 101922.




The left PDF contains most of the 1511's. The bottom section was split into A, B and C pdf's.

'BottA' page has these varities 1424, 1014,1810, 1609, 1130-A-2, 2510, 9910, 2410, 1066A, 1310, 1523, 1221, 2113, 643, 14611

'BottB' contains these varities: 1415, 111311, 1528, 111314, 1111E, 45410, 1114, 1123, 49-1411, 1199, 25911, 9926, 1014-A, 49-1226, 2517, 1111

'BottC' has 9919(mostly), 1523, 1221, 13-526, 91612, 921, 1114, 1017, 1613, 9915, 1423

They are posted on Yahoo but here is a folder with the five PDFs in my Google documents storage

https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNbExVSXJsWUMxVzA/edit


MJost

I was actually looking for "1413". According to Ysearch RNNV3 Brady is (supposedly) L513+, while matching HCF2T Brady who is (supposedly) Z253+, yet those two SNPs are understood to be mutually exclusive. To further muddy the waters, 4XPAV McDonnell is negative for everything under DF13, including both L513 and Z253. There's a rotten apple somewhere i that barrel. CXPNR Cain, 188630 Collins, Q4A8X Lunney, E298Q Lunney, y48tn O'Bannon (aka Browne), R3XKU O'Rourke have not tested beyond L21. With the price hike from $29 to $39 per SNP, it may well be that none of them will test further SNPs due to the high cost, low return (one marker!) and unreliability of results. One of the guys who already paid likely got a dud result for his $29. Getting a dud result for $39 is even less palatable. The prospect of finding if Mike's Variety 1413 is L513+ or Z253+ just brew more remote.

L513 remains a possibility, as the "1113"and "1413" varieties share DYS617=13. The first "1113" Cain to test L513 received a dud result too, in L513-. We were stunned but left off L513 testing until another "1113" Cain ignored my advice & tested. Lo and behold, he got L513+, negating the first guys L513-. Getting a 2nd guy to test obviously doubles the cost. Raising the cost per SNP from $29 to $39 will remove a lot of scrutiny, buy financially deterring folks from double-checking.

Rory

MJost
02-19-2013, 02:37 PM
1413 variety FYI:

I wanted to see how the remaining 67 marker speculative varieties faired in a Phylogram.


I ran the selected data through my modified McGee Y-Utility: Y-DNA Comparison Utility Using All 67 Markers with optional mutation rates from Marko Heinla rates May 2012. Set Probability to 1-Sigma (68.27%) that specifies that the TMRCA is no longer than indicated. Average generaton: 30 years. L21 modal was the root via first entry. I took that output and imported it into SplitsTree4 which infers the phylogenetic relationships via it output. The file is located in my Google documents folder here.

L21VarietiesXsubcladesN=347HtCluster.pdf

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNdzdmakpwaUM5YWM/edit

Click File and the down load to your computer. Open and Ctrl-F to find a kit number or variety. Ctrl-Y to zoom in if needed. I have added Excel haplotype subject data in the last pages.

MJost

TigerMW
04-16-2013, 06:26 PM
DF13 is a critical marker for L21 people who have not tested downstream. A very large majority of L21+, especially in the British Isles, are turning out to be DF13+.

I moved this initial post from Vineviz over her to the L21 sub-category where it belongs. I'll post a list of true DF13* and DF63 people so we can look at these subsets of L21+ people.

As of right now, to be known DF13* you'd have have to be negative for all of these, the large, old subclades of L513(DF1), DF21, DF41, DF49, Z253, Z255, L1335, CTS4466 and the smaller ones, L371, L555, L144.1 and L96.

TigerMW
05-21-2013, 01:42 AM
Here are the current unofficial DF13* guys. It's a tough group to make as you have to be DF13+, which isn't too hard since most of L21, but you also have to test negative for the L513 (11-13), DF21 (incl Clan Colla), DF49 (incl NW Irish & WalesSWEng), Z253 (incl Irish III, IV), Z255 (incl Irish Sea/Laigen), DF41, L1335 (Scots & WalesII), and CTS4466 (Irish II). We'll add Z251 to the list soon as a requirement since it is proven to be old too.

f148326 zzzUnk(Ross) R1b-P312>L21>DF13** zzzUnkOrigin
fN55408 Smith R1b-P312>L21>DF13** zzzUnkOrigin
f26082 Dowell R1b-P312>L21>DF13* zzzUnkOrigin
fN33209 Whidden R1b-P312>L21>DF13* England
f170191 Bond R1b-P312>L21>DF13* England, South West, Devonshire, Hartland
f191494 Mann R1b-P312>L21>DF13* zzzUnkOrigin
f186947 Edgcombe R1b-P312>L21>DF13* England, South West, Devonshire, Edgcumbe
f208852 Forsythe R1b-P312>L21>DF13** Ireland, Ulster
f227117 McNeiladge R1b-P312>L21>DF13** Scotland, Strathclyde, Lanarkshire, Barony, Anderston
f173880 Norris R1b-P312>L21>DF13* England
fE13942 Robert(Lefèvre) R1b-P312>L21>DF13** France, Basse-Normandie, Calvados, Merville-Franceville-Plage
f129603 Watson R1b-P312>L21>DF13* England
f166617 Wiegand R1b-P312>L21>DF13* Germany, Hesse, Darmstadt, Eifa
f134883 zzzUnknown R1b-P312>L21>DF13** Wales

Brunetmj
09-18-2013, 12:59 AM
Just came over from the Yahoo group. I am kit number 198135 L21-DF13**.
Just mailed in the Chromo 2 test as I continue to look for my still unknown terminal SNP

N21163
10-13-2013, 11:57 PM
Have BritainsDNA given you a timeframe for results?



Just came over from the Yahoo group. I am kit number 198135 L21-DF13**.
Just mailed in the Chromo 2 test as I continue to look for my still unknown terminal SNP

Brunetmj
10-14-2013, 03:00 AM
No
Just an email two weeks ago that it arrived at the lab. The web site says 6 to 8 weeks.

FunkyWanderer
03-20-2014, 04:53 PM
Here's my Genographic results I just got back today.

Paternal Line: M42 > M168 > M89 > P128 > M45 > M207 > P231 > M343 > L278 > P310 > L21
Maternal Line: L3 > N > R > U > U2 > U2E > U2E1'2'3

MEDITERRANEAN
43%
NORTHERN EUROPEAN
39%
SOUTHWEST ASIAN
15%
NEANDERTHAL
1.9%
DENISOVAN
1.9%



YOUR FIRST REFERENCE POPULATION: BRITISH (UNITED KINGDOM)
YOUR SECOND REFERENCE POPULATION: GREEK



I find is curious there is no French reference population...

And myFTDNA gives:


Y-DNA R1b1a2a1a1b4 Shorthand R-L21 DF13
mtDNA U2e1b


I'm French Canadian, and I can track both Paternal and Maternal to France during the first colonization of Nouvelle France in the 1650's, and my paternal line to to 1033.

Paternal: Gen. Raphael de Podio, Commander of the Roman Cavalry & Grand Chamberlain of the Roman Republic, Governor of Provinces of Lanquedoc & Dauphiny of Southeastern France (b. bef. 1033)
Maternal: Marie Cholet, b.1602 and d. 1642

I can track my paternal line in France to Gen. Raphael de Podio, Commander of the Roman Cavalry & Grand Chamberlain of the Roman Republic, Governor of Provinces of Lanquedoc & Dauphiny of Southeastern France (b. bef. 1033), but there isn't any information beyond him that I've found so far but in my lineage is a lot of really interesting history including the Acadians, the Huguenots, Knights Templars, Great Priestly Architects, Dukes, and all sorts of Nobility and Chivalry.

I'm really enjoying the help DNA tracking is giving the family tree research.

Yggdrasil
08-19-2014, 02:11 PM
This is the situation of my DF13 homeless kit (red is ancestral, green derived):

What say you, better to go for the YSEQ L21 panel at $149 than test any more singles? How does it work, do they store your sample after testing?
http://shop.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=4321

FunkyWanderer
12-17-2014, 02:24 PM
I'm R1B-L21 DF13+

My ancestry comes from France

My FTDNA kit number is 313221


Here's all the tests I've taken thus far:

Tests Taken

L21+, CTS10168+, CTS10362+, CTS10834+, CTS109+, CTS11358+, CTS11468+, CTS11575+, CTS11726+, CTS11985+, CTS12478+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS1996+, CTS2134+, CTS3135+, CTS3331+, CTS3358+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3575+, CTS3654+, CTS3868+, CTS3996+, CTS4244+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4437+, CTS4443+, CTS2664+, CTS3063+, CTS3662+, CTS4740+, CTS5318+, CTS5457+, CTS5532+, CTS5577+, CTS5884+, CTS6135+, CTS623+, CTS6383+, CTS6800+, CTS6907+, CTS7400+, CTS7659+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8591+, CTS8665+, CTS8728+, CTS8980+, F1046+, F115+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, CTS9828+, CTS8243+, F1704+, F1714+, F2048+, F2075+, F211+, F2142+, F2155+, F2302+, F2402+, F2587+, F2688+, F2710+, F2837+, F29+, F295+, F2985+, F2993+, F3111+, F313+, F3136+, F33+, F332+, F3335+, F344+, F3556+, F356+, F359+, F1753+, F1767+, F1794+, F180+, F3692+, F378+, F506+, F556+, F63+, F640+, F647+, F652+, F671+, F719+, F82+, F83+, F93+, L11+, L132+, L15+, L150+, L151+, L16+, L21+, L23+, L265+, L388+, L389+, L407+, L468+, L470+, L471+, L478+, L482+, L483+, L498+, L500+, L502+, L506+, L51+, F4+, F47+, L278+, L350+, L52+, L721+, L747+, L752+, L754+, L761+, L768+, L773+, L774+, L779+, L82+, M139+, M168+, L585+, M235+, M294+, M343+, M415+, M42+, M45+, M526+, M89+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P225+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P232+, P233+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P240+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P295+, P297+, P310+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PAGES00083+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, M207+, PF192+, PF342+, PF5465+, PF5466+, PF5468+, PF5471+, PF5851+, PF5853+, PF5854+, PF5865+, PF5869+, PF5871+, PF5882+, PF5886+, PF5887+, PF5888+, PF5953+, PF5956+, PF5957+, PF5964+, PF5965+, PF5982+, PF6063+, PF6091+, PF6145+, PF6246+, PF6249+, PF6250+, PF6263+, PF6265+, PF6270+, PF6271+, PF6272+, PF6404+, PF6409+, PF6411+, PF6424+, PF6425+, PF6430+, PF6432+, PF6434+, PF6438+, PF6443+, PF6463+, PF6494+, PF6495+, PF6498+, PF6500+, PF6506+, PF6507+, PF6509+, PF6524+, PF667+, PF719+, PF725+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, s10+, s3+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+, YSC0000067+, YSC0000072+, YSC0000075+, YSC0000082+, YSC0000166+, YSC0000176+, YSC0000179+, YSC0000182+, YSC0000186+, YSC0000191+, YSC0000194+, YSC0000201+, YSC0000203+, YSC0000205+, YSC0000207+, YSC0000213+, YSC0000219+, YSC0000224+, YSC0000225+, YSC0000227+, YSC0000230+, YSC0000232+, YSC0000233+, YSC0000251+, YSC0000269+, YSC0000270+, YSC0000279+, YSC0000288+, YSC0000294+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, Z827+, PF500+, Z290+, DF13+, Z70-, PF5236-, M37-, P66-, L96-, L144-, L193-, L226-, M222-, L159.2-, P314.2-, DF21-, PF910-, Z248-, Z249-, Z253-, Z255-, PF7301-, PF7379-, PF3988-, PF4252-, PF4837-, PF2028-, M222-, M226-, PF1909-, PF3292-, PAGES00072-, M481-, L625-, L626-, L627-, M18-, L554-, L580-, L371-, F499-, F4006-, L513-, L270-, F3808-, F3952-, F1969-, F3637-, F3024-, F1732-, CTS8580-, DF21-, DF23-, DF25-, DF5-, F1033-, F1400-, F1636-, CTS9501-, CTS8002-, CTS6919-, CTS7030-, CTS6838-, CTS6253-, CTS6-, CTS5714-, CTS3771-, CTS3087-, CTS4466-, CTS3655-, CTS3386-, CTS2457-, CTS2501-, CTS1751-, CTS1970-, CTS1202-, CTS12173-, CTS11722-, CTS11548-, CTS11459-, CTS10488-, CTS10334-

tbean1
12-31-2014, 03:42 AM
I think there is a very good chance that you are R1b-L21>DF13>Z16500>Z17901+. Mike Walsh has your FTDNA kit (313221) grouped in a STR haplotype variety labeled [16500-02-z991818], which is shared by kit # 271376 (MDKA surname: Norton). This kit is at a GD of 14 from your kit (at 67 markers), and has been confirmed Z16500+ and Z17901+ via NGS testing (Big Y).

The NGS tested Z16500 group is shown here, and includes one Frenchman and several members who have traced paternal line origins to areas around Brittany/Normandy/Wales.

http://www.littlescottishcluster.com/RL21/NGS/R-Z16500.html

If you would like to confirm your placement in the Z16500 group, the Z16500 and Z17901 SNP tests are available to order from either FTDNA or from YSEQ. We also have a project you may wish to join if you are indeed Z16500+:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21L69




I'm R1B-L21 DF13+

My ancestry comes from France

My FTDNA kit number is 313221


Here's all the tests I've taken thus far:

tbean1
12-31-2014, 09:45 PM
Without any other information to go on, I would indeed recommend the L21 super clade panel. This is currently priced at $88, not $149. And yes, YSEQ does keep your sample on file for future tests that you may wish to order.

If you have completed any STR marker tests with FTDNA, it may be possible to make a more educated guess as to what might be your terminal SNP below DF13.


This is the situation of my DF13 homeless kit (red is ancestral, green derived):

What say you, better to go for the YSEQ L21 panel at $149 than test any more singles? How does it work, do they store your sample after testing?
http://shop.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=4321

FunkyWanderer
01-20-2015, 01:43 PM
If you would like to confirm your placement in the Z16500 group, the Z16500 and Z17901 SNP tests are available to order from either FTDNA or from YSEQ. We also have a project you may wish to join if you are indeed Z16500+:


I've just ordered both those SNP's, time to hurry up and wait again I guess. I'll keep you posted on results.

Tests Taken


L21+, CTS10168+, CTS10362+, CTS10834+, CTS109+, CTS11358+, CTS11726+, CTS11985+, CTS12478+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS1996+, CTS2134+, CTS11575+, CTS2664+, CTS3063+, CTS3135+, CTS3331+, CTS3358+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3575+, CTS3654+, CTS3868+, CTS3996+, CTS4244+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4437+, CTS4443+, CTS4740+, CTS5318+, CTS5457+, CTS5532+, CTS3662+, CTS5884+, CTS6135+, CTS623+, CTS6383+, CTS6800+, CTS6907+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8243+, CTS8728+, CTS8980+, CTS9828+, F2048+, F2075+, F211+, F2142+, F2155+, F2302+, F2402+, F2587+, F2688+, F2710+, F2837+, F29+, F295+, F2985+, F2993+, F1046+, F115+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F3111+, F313+, F3136+, F33+, F332+, F3335+, F344+, F3556+, F356+, F359+, F506+, F556+, F63+, F640+, F647+, F652+, F671+, F719+, F82+, F83+, F93+, L11+, L132+, L15+, L150+, L151+, L16+, L21+, L23+, L265+, F1753+, F1767+, F1794+, F180+, F3692+, F378+, F1704+, F1714+, F4+, F47+, L278+, L350+, M526+, M89+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P225+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P232+, P233+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P240+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P295+, P297+, P310+, L388+, L389+, L407+, L468+, L470+, L471+, L478+, L482+, L483+, L498+, L500+, L502+, L506+, L51+, L721+, L747+, L752+, L754+, L761+, L768+, L773+, L774+, L779+, L82+, M139+, M168+, L585+, L52+, M207+, PAGES00083+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF5465+, PF5466+, PF5468+, PF5471+, PF5851+, PF5853+, PF5854+, PF5865+, PF5869+, PF5871+, PF5882+, PF5886+, PF5887+, PF5888+, PF5953+, PF5956+, PF5957+, PF5964+, PF5965+, PF5982+, PF6063+, PF6091+, PF6145+, PF6246+, PF6249+, PF6250+, PF6263+, PF6265+, PF6270+, PF6271+, PF6272+, PF6404+, PF6409+, PF6411+, PF6424+, PF6425+, PF6430+, PF6432+, PF6434+, PF6438+, PF6443+, PF6463+, PF6464+, PF6469+, PF6470+, PF6477+, PF6479+, PF6494+, PF6495+, PF6498+, PF6500+, PF6506+, PF6507+, PF6509+, PF6520+, PF6524+, PF667+, PF719+, PF725+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, M235+, M294+, M343+, M415+, M42+, M45+, PF342+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, s10+, s3+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+, YSC0000067+, YSC0000072+, YSC0000075+, YSC0000082+, YSC0000166+, YSC0000176+, YSC0000179+, YSC0000182+, YSC0000186+, YSC0000191+, YSC0000194+, YSC0000201+, YSC0000203+, YSC0000205+, YSC0000207+, YSC0000213+, YSC0000219+, YSC0000224+, YSC0000225+, YSC0000227+, YSC0000230+, YSC0000232+, YSC0000233+, YSC0000251+, YSC0000269+, YSC0000270+, YSC0000279+, YSC0000288+, YSC0000294+, Z827+, PF192+, PF500+, Z290+, DF13+, L1444-, L679-, Z70-, PF5236-, PF2028-, M37-, P66-, L96-, L144-, L193-, L226-, M222-, L159.2-, P314.2-, DF21-, Z248-, Z249-, Z253-, Z255-, PF910-, PF3988-, PF4252-, PF4837-, M481-, PF3292-, PF7301-, PF7379-, PF1909-, M222-, M226-, L554-, L580-, L625-, L626-, L627-, M18-, L513-, PAGES00072-, L371-, F499-, F4006-, F1732-, F3808-, F3952-, F1969-, L270-, F3637-, F1400-, F1636-, F3024-, DF21-, DF23-, DF25-, DF5-, F1033-, CTS9501-, CTS8580-, CTS8002-, CTS6919-, CTS7030-, CTS6838-, CTS6253-, CTS6-, CTS3771-, CTS5714-, CTS4466-, CTS3655-, CTS3386-, CTS3087-, CTS11722-, CTS2457-, CTS2501-, CTS1751-, CTS1970-, CTS1202-, CTS12173-, CTS11459-, CTS11548-, CTS10488-, CTS10334-

FunkyWanderer
03-27-2015, 02:19 PM
Z16500 and Z17901 and DF49 all came in negative. At this point I'm truly R-DF13, and all branches have been tested within FTDNA.

So, who's R-DF13 and noteworthy?

L21+, CTS10168+, CTS10362+, CTS10834+, CTS109+, CTS11358+, CTS11726+, CTS11985+, CTS12478+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS1996+, CTS2134+, CTS11575+, CTS2664+, CTS3063+, CTS3135+, CTS3331+, CTS3358+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3575+, CTS3654+, CTS3868+, CTS3996+, CTS4244+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4437+, CTS4443+, CTS4740+, CTS5318+, CTS5457+, CTS5532+, CTS3662+, CTS5884+, CTS6135+, CTS623+, CTS6383+, CTS6800+, CTS6907+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8243+, CTS8728+, CTS8980+, CTS9828+, F2048+, F2075+, F211+, F2142+, F2155+, F2302+, F2402+, F2587+, F2688+, F2710+, F2837+, F29+, F295+, F2985+, F2993+, F1046+, F115+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F3111+, F313+, F3136+, F33+, F332+, F3335+, F344+, F3556+, F356+, F359+, F506+, F556+, F63+, F640+, F647+, F652+, F671+, F719+, F82+, F83+, F93+, L11+, L132+, L15+, L150+, L151+, L16+, L21+, L23+, L265+, F1753+, F1767+, F1794+, F180+, F3692+, F378+, F1704+, F1714+, F4+, F47+, L278+, L350+, M526+, M89+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P225+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P232+, P233+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P240+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P295+, P297+, P310+, L388+, L389+, L407+, L468+, L470+, L471+, L478+, L482+, L483+, L498+, L500+, L502+, L506+, L51+, L721+, L747+, L752+, L754+, L761+, L768+, L773+, L774+, L779+, L82+, M139+, M168+, L585+, L52+, M207+, PAGES00083+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF5465+, PF5466+, PF5468+, PF5471+, PF5851+, PF5853+, PF5854+, PF5865+, PF5869+, PF5871+, PF5882+, PF5886+, PF5887+, PF5888+, PF5953+, PF5956+, PF5957+, PF5964+, PF5965+, PF5982+, PF6063+, PF6091+, PF6145+, PF6246+, PF6249+, PF6250+, PF6263+, PF6265+, PF6270+, PF6271+, PF6272+, PF6404+, PF6409+, PF6411+, PF6424+, PF6425+, PF6430+, PF6432+, PF6434+, PF6438+, PF6443+, PF6463+, PF6464+, PF6469+, PF6470+, PF6477+, PF6479+, PF6494+, PF6495+, PF6498+, PF6500+, PF6506+, PF6507+, PF6509+, PF6520+, PF6524+, PF667+, PF719+, PF725+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, M235+, M294+, M343+, M415+, M42+, M45+, PF342+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, s10+, s3+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+, YSC0000067+, YSC0000072+, YSC0000075+, YSC0000082+, YSC0000166+, YSC0000176+, YSC0000179+, YSC0000182+, YSC0000186+, YSC0000191+, YSC0000194+, YSC0000201+, YSC0000203+, YSC0000205+, YSC0000207+, YSC0000213+, YSC0000219+, YSC0000224+, YSC0000225+, YSC0000227+, YSC0000230+, YSC0000232+, YSC0000233+, YSC0000251+, YSC0000269+, YSC0000270+, YSC0000279+, YSC0000288+, YSC0000294+, Z827+, PF192+, PF500+, DF13+, Z290+, Z70-, L1444-, L679-, Z16500-, Z17901-, DF49-, PF5236-, PF2028-, M37-, P66-, L96-, L144-, L193-, L226-, M222-, L159.2-, P314.2-, DF21-, Z248-, Z249-, Z253-, Z255-, PF910-, PF3988-, PF4252-, PF4837-, M481-, PF3292-, PF7301-, PF7379-, PF1909-, M222-, M226-, L554-, L580-, L625-, L626-, L627-, M18-, L513-, PAGES00072-, L371-, F499-, F4006-, F1732-, F3808-, F3952-, F1969-, L270-, F3637-, F1400-, F1636-, F3024-, DF21-, DF23-, DF25-, DF5-, F1033-, CTS9501-, CTS8580-, CTS8002-, CTS6919-, CTS7030-, CTS6838-, CTS6253-, CTS6-, CTS3771-, CTS5714-, CTS4466-, CTS3655-, CTS3386-, CTS3087-, CTS11722-, CTS2457-, CTS2501-, CTS1751-, CTS1970-, CTS1202-, CTS12173-, CTS11459-, CTS11548-, CTS10488-, CTS10334-

seferhabahir
03-27-2015, 03:21 PM
At this point I'm truly R-DF13, and all branches have been tested within FTDNA.
So, who's R-DF13 and noteworthy?

I don't see any result for Z251. Have you tested that SNP?

MJost
03-27-2015, 04:34 PM
@ Funky

After you show negative for a lot of the main DF13 subclades: DF49, Z253, Z255, L513, Z16500 that were some of your closer GDs. Also plus negative for DF21, L371, CTS1751, CTS3386.

Not tested for these SNPs but not you are not close in GDs to FGC11134(GD20), CTS11994(GD19), DF41(GD15 to 20), L1335(GD15 to 20), S16264(NA), Z17300(NA), S1026(GD18 to 19), S1051(GD17-20), Z251(GD15-20).

Your looking close in GD(13-15) to the 5494-5561-z141121 guys. I suggest the FGC5494 SNP test or just order the YSEQ L21 Super-Clade Orientation Panel.

MJost

Tolan
04-08-2015, 04:00 PM
For now, i am also DF13+ *...
Here SNPs tested directly under DF13, all negative:
DF21
DF49
DF41
FGC11134
L1335
L513
Z251
S16264
S1026
Z16500
CTS1751
S1051
L371

Not tested ZZ10, but: Z253, Z255, CTS3386, MC14: all negative.
Not Tested FGC5494, but FGC5496, Z16502: all negative

Not Tested:
BY575
Z17300
CTS11994
FGC13780
A4556? <--Not sure of the name

Do you think I have a chance to be positive for one of these markers?
Are they private SNP?
N° FTDNA: 84034

MJost
04-09-2015, 07:03 PM
You are df13-zUnnassigned in Walsh's L21 spreadsheet.
I looked and you have similar GDs (>19 ~23 Max 37) for your own df13-zUnnassigned assignment.
You can test the lowest GDs first but you probably have equal chance of being either.
5494 GD23+
BY575 575- GD28+
Z17300 ?
CTS11994 11994 GD23+
FGC13780 13780 GD22+

Your definitely an extreme outlier. Test them all or do a BigY.

MJost




For now, i am also DF13+ *...
Here SNPs tested directly under DF13, all negative:
DF21
DF49
DF41
FGC11134
L1335
L513
Z251
S16264
S1026
Z16500
CTS1751
S1051
L371

Not tested ZZ10, but: Z253, Z255, CTS3386, MC14: all negative.
Not Tested FGC5494, but FGC5496, Z16502: all negative

Not Tested:
BY575
Z17300
CTS11994
FGC13780
A4556? <--Not sure of the name

Do you think I have a chance to be positive for one of these markers?
Are they private SNP?
N° FTDNA: 84034

swid
04-09-2015, 07:54 PM
For purely selfish reasons, I'd love to have anyone join me in ZZ10* land (which is an even more exclusive club than the 9-person DF13* horde on Alex Williamson's tree). :)

MJost
04-09-2015, 08:21 PM
For purely selfish reasons, I'd love to have anyone join me in ZZ10* land (which is an even more exclusive club than the 9-person DF13* horde on Alex Williamson's tree). :)

Are you BigY kit 204709?

MJost

MJost
04-09-2015, 08:39 PM
ZZ10_1 has sublcades: CTS3386, MC14, Z253, Z255

but it will be an indicator of of membership in one of the subclades known or unknown.
because of it crossover with this part of the Y at 250bp either side of the position.

Has a 99.8% match with: Y - 20387863 20388362

DF13>FGC5494 is similar crossover with three main subclades that can be Sanger sequenced with human supervision. one those three is named FGC5561 and also is a crossover that shows up in NGS results such as the BigY, those with a FGC5561+ is also an indicator of FGC5494 membership.

MJost

swid
04-10-2015, 02:40 AM
Are you BigY kit 204709?

MJost

Close. That's my father; I'm FTDNA N33209 / YSEQ 1648.

MJost
04-10-2015, 02:51 AM
Close. That's my father; I'm FTDNA N33209 / YSEQ 1648.

I saw his BigY and wondered if you/he have any close STR GDs to test into your lead SNP.

MJost

WOLFF éric
08-01-2015, 04:03 PM
I´m R1b-DF13*-Y14049 any informations about this terminal snp ?

mikey131953
08-06-2015, 07:12 PM
I do have a question about DF13*. That is the results I got from YSEQ today. I took the L21 Superclade test. So, is there an unknown SNP below DF13 that's not being recognized or tested?

swid
08-06-2015, 08:05 PM
I can't check YSEQ right now to see what's all included in the L21 panel (for whatever reason, YSEQ is classified as "Weapons" by my employer's Web filter and blocked), but I think it has just about every publicly known clade below DF13.

Otherwise, there's one...ZZ10, which is below DF13 and above CTS3386, MC14, Z253, and Z255. It's currently only testable via Big Y/FGC/YFull testing; my father and FTDNA kit N3983 (Allen) are the only two known ZZ10* results.

If you've been tested at FTDNA, what's your kit #?

Mac von Frankfurt
08-06-2015, 08:13 PM
I can't check YSEQ right now to see what's all included in the L21 panel (for whatever reason, YSEQ is classified as "Weapons" by my employer's Web filter and blocked), but I think it has just about every publicly known clade below DF13.

Otherwise, there's one...ZZ10, which is below DF13 and above CTS3386, MC14, Z253, and Z255. It's currently only testable via Big Y/FGC/YFull testing; my father and FTDNA kit N3983 (Allen) are the only two known ZZ10* results.

If you've been tested at FTDNA, what's your kit #?

From the YSEQ webpage:

The R1b-L21 Super-Clade Panel is tested in two stages:

First DF13 and the 7 most frequent occurring markers are tested. These are L1335, DF21, DF49, L513, Z251, Z253 and Z255. If a marker downstream of DF13 is found positive, the mission is completed and no further testing is needed.

If all SNPs are negative (including DF13) it is likely that the sample is DF63+ or that the sample isn't L21+ after all. Therefore we'll test L21, DF63 and three downstream SNPs of DF63 (CTS6919, F3901 and Z16245) in the second round.

However in most cases we expect that DF13 will be positive. Then we'll test the following 12 markers in stage two: CTS1751, CTS3386, DF41, FGC11134, FGC5496, L371, MC14, S1026, S1051, S16264, Z16500 and Z16502.

YSEQ will add new markers or modify the panel according to the latest findings when new major branches are discovered.

swid
08-06-2015, 08:24 PM
OK, I thought they were testing just most SNPs known under DF13 currently. The only ones on the DF13 Big Tree (http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=4&star=false) that aren't tested in the panel are major SNP FGC5494 (above FGC5496) and minor SNPs A4556, BY575, Y14240, CTS11994, and FGC13780.

Mac von Frankfurt
08-06-2015, 08:30 PM
I think the goal of the YSEQ L21 Panel is to make two steps below L21 which leads to another panel. So one way or another you get two steps for $88. That is my understanding but I am always willing to be corrected.

mikey131953
08-07-2015, 12:01 PM
All I tested at FTDNA was the Y67 and for L21. Kit #370313

swid
08-07-2015, 01:50 PM
I don't know if you've looked at the R-L21 Haplotype Data sheet on the L21 Yahoo group; there, you're listed in a small cluster called "df13-z4541099". FTDNA kit N55201 (Stanley) is a particularly close 67-marker match to you in that cluster.

It doesn't appear that anyone in that cluster has had a Big Y test.

WOLFF éric
08-14-2015, 08:26 AM
Any informations origins or populations about Y14240,it´s my terminal snp ? Thanks.

Mac von Frankfurt
09-01-2015, 07:33 PM
DF13* is my final result from YSEQ L21 Panel. Y Elite 2.0 has been ordered.

TigerMW
09-01-2015, 09:22 PM
DF13* is my final result from YSEQ L21 Panel. Y Elite 2.0 has been ordered.
Thanks, Mac. I think you'll be happy and hopefully we'll crack the DF13* nut just a little further.

JRW
09-02-2015, 01:17 AM
DF13* is my final result from YSEQ L21 Panel. Y Elite 2.0 has been ordered.

Congratulations. This test will identify many downstream SNPs for you. And even if you don't have any initial matches with other DF13 guys, you can take comfort in discovering a new downstream line that others will match in the future.

JohnStorch
09-30-2015, 12:25 AM
After National Geographic Geno 2.0 plus FamilyTreeDNA M343 SNP Pack, I am now at R-L21 DF13*. Taking a pause now to decide what to do next. Family name is Storch originating in Hesse Germany, at this point only back to about the mid 1700's.

Mac von Frankfurt
09-30-2015, 01:29 AM
After National Geographic Geno 2.0 plus FamilyTreeDNA M343 SNP Pack, I am now at R-L21 DF13*. Taking a pause now to decide what to do next. Family name is Storch originating in Hesse Germany, at this point only back to about the mid 1700's.

Welcome to the club. Pausing is good. The testing companies will be there when you are ready.

swid
10-19-2015, 03:21 PM
The DF13* numbers got a bit smaller over the weekend; S7323 was found to unite FTDNA kit 8688 and 1kG HG00119. There's now 22 clades immediately below DF13 (assuming you're counting ZZ10 as a valid clade).

WOLFF éric
10-29-2015, 02:45 PM
Hello,

I´m from Alsace-Lorraine and have Y14240/FGC35995 and Y14049/FGC35996 as terminal snp´s,any informations about these ? B)

swid
10-29-2015, 08:09 PM
Thus far, the only other person known to share those mutations under DF13 with you is a 1000 Genomes sample from Mexico (http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=782).

Have you checked your Big Y matches to see if anyone else shares one or both mutations at:

7066620 T -> C
14893064 G -> A

WOLFF éric
11-16-2015, 07:35 PM
Yes,i have a third person now with these results by BIG Y matches and YFull.com A Swede from isle Hässlo.(401 89 0.222 YF03262 R-Y14049) i had contact with his aunt.But we have 89 snp´s not commun ? :\

swid
11-17-2015, 07:09 PM
That's the unfortunate reality of genealogical DNA testing being heavily biased towards anyone who currently lives in (or can trace their ancestry to) the British Isles... :-(

As a point of comparison, my father's 7x cousin had his Big Y results come in last week; they have 20 and 25 SNPs that FTDNA classifies as "high confidence" not in common with each other.

WOLFF éric
11-19-2015, 06:01 PM
Yes,more the people from USA or UK,Ireland want to know her origins,in France isn´t legal,and in the most countries the peoples haven´t money or perhaps not a big interest for genetic too... :(

Mac von Frankfurt
11-29-2015, 07:37 PM
I just received my FTDNA 67 STR test results and FTDNA predicts I am R M269

12 STRs- 1 exact match (France) and two with GD of 1 (both Scotland)

25 STRs- 5 matches with GD of 2 (2 R-M269, 2 SRY2627, 1 BY312)

37 STRs- No matches
67 STRs- No matches

My FGC Y-Elite 2.0 results for batch 9007 should be available in a month or two or three...

FunkyWanderer
12-10-2015, 02:13 PM
So I just got the results of the L21 Super pack, and it hasn't changed a thing, I remain R-DF13 with nothing else to test.

I guess I'm pure R-DF13

swid
12-10-2015, 03:54 PM
There's at least three (very small) clades below DF13 that haven't been covered by your previous FTDNA testing:

FGC21979
FGC35995
FGC13742

None of those three are currently available from FTDNA and only FGC35995 is currently available from YSEQ. If you have the money/interest in testing further, you may want to go the Big Y or FGC route instead of chasing individual results.

swid
12-15-2015, 05:51 PM
Hello,

I´m from Alsace-Lorraine and have Y14240/FGC35995 and Y14049/FGC35996 as terminal snp´s,any informations about these ? B)

I posted this as a reply to your question/request on FTDNA's R-L21 page as well, but just in case anyone else had any interest in ordering it, I'm noting it here as well.

I submitted a request on your behalf to have FGC35995 added as an Advanced SNP available to order at FTDNA.

JohnStorch
01-07-2016, 10:16 PM
After National Geographic Geno 2.0, FamilyTreeDNA M343 Backbone SNP Pack and YSEQ L21 Super-Clade Panel testing, my terminal SNP now stands at DF13*. That’s enough SNPs for now. Maybe it’s time to take a look at some STR tests.

swid
01-08-2016, 12:05 AM
Unless it was ordered first, the M343 SNP Pack test was a redundant one, as you already knew you were below L21.

If you do come back to SNP testing, you'll likely want to order Z39589 (currently testable at YSEQ) and ZZ10 (currently testable at FTDNA). I suspect that a large fraction of DF13* men will turn out to be one or the other.

JohnStorch
01-08-2016, 03:44 AM
Yes, I did the M343 SNP Pack before the L21 Super Clade. While M343 is upstream of L21, it did test quite a few SNPs below L21 also. And, at that time, it was before the L21 Super Clade was available.

I looked over several sources and the SNPs under DF13 that I haven't tested yet are ZZ10 (although it looks like I am already negative for all branches directly under it) and FGC17059. As for Z39589, I could not find that in the ISOGG SNP Index, FamilyTreeDNA Y-DNA Haplotree or R1b-L21 Descendants Tree Chart, but I did see it in the R-DF13 Big Tree... in 13 different locations. Not sure exactly where that one fits.

swid
01-08-2016, 02:28 PM
Ah, OK, unlucky timing on your part...that makes sense.

Just because you're negative for all the known clades below ZZ10 doesn't mean you couldn't have the ZZ10 mutation itself (I should know, as I'm one of those folks :)). Since ZZ10 was added to the L21 SNP Pack, we've had one or two people come back as ZZ10* in each batch.

As to Z39589, its existence was only announced a week ago, so there's not much information out there on it; currently, it can only be found within FGC sequencing results or though a standalone test from YSEQ (I suspect that FTDNA will start testing for it in the near future, however). Alex has it listed in multiple locations as there's currently 12 locations on the tree that he has no data to confirm or deny that they are Z39589+ or not.

TigerMW
01-08-2016, 03:52 PM
Ah, OK, unlucky timing on your part...that makes sense.

Just because you're negative for all the known clades below ZZ10 doesn't mean you couldn't have the ZZ10 mutation itself (I should know, as I'm one of those folks :)). Since ZZ10 was added to the L21 SNP Pack, we've had one or two people come back as ZZ10* in each batch.

As to Z39589, its existence was only announced a week ago, so there's not much information out there on it; currently, it can only be found within FGC sequencing results or though a standalone test from YSEQ (I suspect that FTDNA will start testing for it in the near future, however). Alex has it listed in multiple locations as there's currently 12 locations on the tree that he has no data to confirm or deny that they are Z39589+ or not.
The L21 Pack has done a nice job of turning some of these smaller subclade groups that haven't been well tested for. I just found another ZZ10* guy yesterday that I added to the L21 project. I have asked FTDNA to add Z39589 to the pack but this may take some time.

swid
02-20-2018, 07:21 PM
Alex has carved out another swath of DF13* men into a new clade - ZZ80 (http://ytree.net/BlockInfo.php?blockID=3303).

As the name implies, this is another palindrome SNP.

TigerMW
02-21-2018, 04:28 PM
Alex has carved out another swath of DF13* men into a new clade - ZZ80 (http://ytree.net/BlockInfo.php?blockID=3303).

As the name implies, this is another palindrome SNP.

There have been several new branches added to the upper layers of L21 and DF13. Here is a picture of this part of the L21 haplotree from myFTDNA's Haplotree & SNP screen.

There are some other new results that must not be sharing their files with the Y DNA Data Warehouse yet as I can see some branches other than what is on the Big Tree. This is going to be challenge keeping up.

21655

I need to do a recount but the number of paragroup L21*, DF13*, ZZ10*, Z39589* is quickly dwindling. I think a lot of this is just more L21 folks recognizing that you need to recruit people potentially related to you to also do Big Y. There are now 10,032 SNPs (variants) on the R1b-Z290 & L21 Haplotree at FTDNA.

swid
03-22-2018, 04:03 PM
There's a handful of new DF13* men on the Big Tree (http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=4&star=true). In a perfect world, manual testing for Z39589 would be a free add-on upon test completion. :-)