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Bes
07-23-2016, 12:42 PM
Hi I would love to hear more detail about my results from people on here. Am I more Finnic? Turkic? or Slavic? I will also post my MDLP world-22 and EU k13
Cheers in advance!

http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y423/Titulus/raznay%20huinya/7624bf44-f5c4-47ea-a891-78a582f8c1e5_zpsczq44lex.png (http://s1274.photobucket.com/user/Titulus/media/raznay%20huinya/7624bf44-f5c4-47ea-a891-78a582f8c1e5_zpsczq44lex.png.html)

MDLP world-22
# Population Percent
1 North-East-European 54.53
2 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 16.05
3 North-European-Mesolithic 8.7
4 West-Asian 8.07
5 Samoedic 5.45
6 East-Siberean 2.33
7 Paleo-Siberian 1.14
8 North-Siberean 1.06
9 Near_East 0.83
10 Indo-Iranian 0.67
11 Austronesian 0.4
12 South-America_Amerind 0.38
13 Melanesian 0.38

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tatar_Kryashen (derived) 8.48
2 Tartar_Mishar (derived) 8.92
3 Mordovian_V (derived) 9.37
4 Mordovian (derived) 9.53
5 Russian_North (derived) 10.35
6 Ukrainian_V (derived) 11.17
7 Ukrainian-West (derived) 11.52
8 Latvian_V (derived) 11.61
9 Ukrainian-Center (derived) 11.79
10 Moldavian (derived) 11.84
11 German (derived) 11.87
12 Komi (derived) 12.24
13 Russian_V (derived) 12.33
14 Slovakian (derived) 12.9
15 Croatian_V (derived) 12.92
16 Ukrainian-East (derived) 13.85
17 Belarusian_V (derived) 14.08
18 Russian_cossack (derived) 14.08
19 Russian_South (derived) 14.11
20 Czech (derived) 14.18

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 79% Russian_North (derived) + 21% Tatar_Crim (derived) @ 3.23
2 81.7% Russian_North (derived) + 18.3% Greek_Azov (derived) @ 3.68
3 83.5% Russian_North (derived) + 16.5% Cirkassian (derived) @ 3.85
4 81% Russian_North (derived) + 19% Nogai (derived) @ 3.96
5 87.1% Russian_North (derived) + 12.9% Georgian_Laz (derived) @ 3.98
6 84% Russian_North (derived) + 16% Balkarian (derived) @ 4.01
7 84.7% Russian_North (derived) + 15.3% Turk (derived) @ 4.06
8 79.3% Russian_North (derived) + 20.7% Greek_North (derived) @ 4.08
9 81% Russian_North (derived) + 19% Greek_Center (derived) @ 4.11
10 81.5% Russian_North (derived) + 18.5% Greek_East (derived) @ 4.17
11 85.1% Russian_North (derived) + 14.9% NorthOssetian (derived) @ 4.18
12 87.9% Russian_North (derived) + 12.1% Georgian_Imereti (derived) @ 4.18
13 84.4% Russian_North (derived) + 15.6% Kabardinian (derived) @ 4.2
14 86.9% Russian_North (derived) + 13.1% Armenian (derived) @ 4.21
15 84.2% Russian_North (derived) + 15.8% Kumyk (derived) @ 4.21
16 73.6% Russian_North (derived) + 26.4% Romania (derived) @ 4.22
17 83.7% Russian_North (derived) + 16.3% Greek_Cretan (derived) @ 4.25
18 85.8% Russian_North (derived) + 14.2% Ossetian (derived) @ 4.28
19 79.5% Russian_North (derived) + 20.5% Greek_South (derived) @ 4.31
20 87.8% Russian_North (derived) + 12.2% Abhkasian (derived) @ 4.33


EU K13
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 45.94
2 North_Atlantic 22.74
3 Siberian 8.17
4 West_Med 7.82
5 West_Asian 7.56
6 East_Med 4.49


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Kargopol_Russian @ 5.832211
2 Erzya @ 5.906707
3 Southwest_Russian @ 7.324161
4 Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 8.162077
5 Russian_Smolensk @ 9.908655
6 Estonian_Polish @ 9.961750
7 Ukrainian @ 9.978237
8 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 10.295927
9 Belorussian @ 10.956381
10 Polish @ 11.667377
11 East_Finnish @ 11.985233
12 South_Polish @ 12.113453
13 Lithuanian @ 13.436321
14 Estonian @ 13.842574
15 Finnish @ 13.850155
16 Tatar @ 15.253960
17 Croatian @ 15.832451
18 Chuvash @ 16.419989
19 Moldavian @ 17.261467
20 Southwest_Finnish @ 17.569273

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Lithuanian +50% Tatar @ 3.799290


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Erzya +25% Estonian_Polish +25% Tatar @ 2.674415


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Chuvash + Erzya + Southwest_Russian + Ukrainian @ 2.013470
2 Chuvash + Erzya + South_Polish + Southwest_Russian @ 2.078217
3 Chuvash + Erzya + Southwest_Russian + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 2.151789
4 Chuvash + Erzya + Ukrainian + Ukrainian @ 2.232436
5 Chuvash + Erzya + Ukrainian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.240313
6 Chuvash + Erzya + Lithuanian + Moldavian @ 2.292273
7 Chuvash + Erzya + South_Polish + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.302098
8 Chuvash + Croatian + Erzya + Lithuanian @ 2.372268
9 Chuvash + Erzya + Ukrainian_Belgorod + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 2.394485
10 Chuvash + Erzya + Ukrainian + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 2.404862
11 Chuvash + Kargopol_Russian + Southwest_Russian + Ukrainian @ 2.420633
12 Mari + Southwest_Russian + Ukrainian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.422626
13 Belorussian + Chuvash + Croatian + Erzya @ 2.424227
14 Chuvash + Erzya + South_Polish + Ukrainian @ 2.435637
15 Chuvash + Erzya + Russian_Smolensk + Ukrainian @ 2.455714
16 Mari + Ukrainian + Ukrainian_Belgorod + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.460025
17 Chuvash + Erzya + Estonian_Polish + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 2.482334
18 Belorussian + Chuvash + Erzya + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 2.484038
19 Chuvash + Croatian + Erzya + Estonian_Polish @ 2.492243
20 Chuvash + Kargopol_Russian + Ukrainian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.499738

evon
07-23-2016, 02:07 PM
I have a few Tatar cousins on 23andme and I also share with a bunch more, can post some data from them so you can compare yourself to their results.

Chuvash mix:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Chuvash.png

Balkan Tatar:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Balkan_T.png

Central Asian Tatar (Uzbekistan I think he was from):
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Central_T.png

Mishar Tatar with some Jewish ancestry:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Mish_Jew_T.png

Mishar Tatar:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Mish_T2.png

Mishar Tatar:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Mish_T.png

Volga Tatar:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Volga_T.png

Hope this helps..

Bes
07-24-2016, 05:05 AM
Cheers for the data buddy! Looks like I fit closer with Mishars B) Are you Tatar also? You have any Gedmatch results btw?

evon
07-24-2016, 11:06 AM
Cheers for the data buddy! Looks like I fit closer with Mishars B) Are you Tatar also? You have any Gedmatch results btw?

No, I am not Tatar and sadly I dont remember the Gedmatch kit numbers of these samples, but they are on Gedmatch, at least the Mishar....

Bes
07-24-2016, 03:24 PM
No, I am not Tatar and sadly I dont remember the Gedmatch kit numbers of these samples, but they are on Gedmatch, at least the Mishar....

A damn thanks anyway bro. You are Norwegian with some Tatar in you then?

Bes
07-24-2016, 03:25 PM
Please feel free to comment on my results. I'm not good at interpreting so some thoughts would be of great value to me. Thanks!

evon
07-24-2016, 04:58 PM
A damn thanks anyway bro. You are Norwegian with some Tatar in you then?

Yes I am Norwegian, but I have not fully understood the connection my family have with Tatars, but I suspect there are at least two possible scenarios.

- Via shared German ancestry with some Russians, Ukrainians and Tatars, many Germans settled in Eastern Europe and the Balkans since the middle ages onward, and I have allot of German ancestry because many Germans settled in Norway from the 1400's onward.

- The other shared connection is possibly via shared Tatar ancestry, as Tatar slaves and Romani slaves (Gypsies) mixed in Balkan following the fall of the Golden Horde, and some time after this event some of my Romani ancestors migrated into northern Europe. So you see it is quite complicated...

So it could be from both these scenarios, and possibly from something else that I have not considered...But I do have some ancient DNA segments that originate in east Asia and are shared with Turkic speaking peoples in central Asia and Russia, so I have alittle Tatar in me, but it is very minor for sure..

evon
07-24-2016, 05:00 PM
Please feel free to comment on my results. I'm not good at interpreting so some thoughts would be of great value to me. Thanks!

If you send me your Gedmatch kit number I can see if I spot some of the known Tatars that are in the GEdmatch database, as maybe you share some segments with them...

Bes
07-24-2016, 05:11 PM
Yes I am Norwegian, but I have not fully understood the connection my family have with Tatars, but I suspect there are at least two possible scenarios.

- Via shared German ancestry with some Russians, Ukrainians and Tatars, many Germans settled in Eastern Europe and the Balkans since the middle ages onward, and I have allot of German ancestry because many Germans settled in Norway from the 1400's onward.

- The other shared connection is possibly via shared Tatar ancestry, as Tatar slaves and Romani slaves (Gypsies) mixed in Balkan following the fall of the Golden Horde, and some time after this event some of my Romani ancestors migrated into northern Europe. So you see it is quite complicated...

So it could be from both these scenarios, and possibly from something else that I have not considered...But I do have some ancient DNA segments that originate in east Asia and are shared with Turkic speaking peoples in central Asia and Russia, so I have alittle Tatar in me, but it is very minor for sure..

Very interesting to see a Norwegian with steppe blood! That's great though bro do you have 23andme results I could look at I'm very interested to see what segments you mean)) Also I can't pm for some reason

Bes
07-24-2016, 05:12 PM
If you send me your Gedmatch kit number I can see if I spot some of the known Tatars that are in the GEdmatch database, as maybe you share some segments with them...

Ahhh it says I have to have 10 posts before I can PM disregard these next posts they are just for numbers sake)

Bes
07-24-2016, 05:15 PM
puntDNAL K12 Modern
# Population Percent
1 European_HG 43.47
2 Anatolian_NF 23.59
3 Caucasus_HG 21.48
4 Siberian 7.09
5 Beringian 3.51
6 Oceanian 0.37
7 Near_East 0.28
8 South_Asian 0.19

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Mordovian 5.84
2 Russian 10.15
3 Czech 10.57
4 Dutch_North 11.26
5 Hungarian 11.29
6 German_North 11.41
7 Belarusian 11.53
8 Scottish_West 11.75
9 Icelandic 12.04
10 Finnish 12.27
11 Irish 12.74
12 Norwegian 12.9
13 Swedish 13.04
14 Dutch_South 13.2
15 English_South 13.44
16 Croatian 13.86
17 Utahn_European 14.64
18 Chuvash 15.16
19 Estonian 15.44
20 German_South 15.91

evon
07-24-2016, 06:22 PM
Very interesting to see a Norwegian with steppe blood! That's great though bro do you have 23andme results I could look at I'm very interested to see what segments you mean)) Also I can't pm for some reason

It has been years since I did my research on this part of my ancestry, but since I am still on the old 23andme platform I cant look at it again until I get transferred onto the new platform, hopefully by August...There should be quite a few Norwegians with similar ancestry as there is mtDNA G2a within the Norwegian genepool, which is very common among Tatars and which is the mtDNA of several of my Norwegian and Tatar matches via both 23andme and FTDNA. I can take a renewed look into this when I get transferred to the new platform..

Also, I saw your PM, will check out your Gedmatch matches now and look for the ones I know by name...

manus
07-24-2016, 07:44 PM
I've seen full "Russian" results that scored like 10-20% Siberian, East Asian totally without known Tatar ancestry. I wonder if your Tatar is some family story or real documented ancestry, interesting result btw.

Bes
07-24-2016, 11:51 PM
I've seen full "Russian" results that scored like 10-20% Siberian, East Asian totally without known Tatar ancestry. I wonder if your Tatar is some family story or real documented ancestry, interesting result btw.

Cheers! Out of the question buddy ethnic Russians can not have 10-20% Asian mixture without being non-ethnic Russian. My relatives are Tatars through and through on my paternal side and they document my ancestry pretty well along with my surname which is of Turko-Muslim origins however it is true that I look nothing like a Tatar as I'm 195cm and blonde and Russians see me as a half blood or metis

Bes
07-25-2016, 12:17 AM
Also could some one help me answer if I'm overall more Finnic,Turkic or Slavic. Thanks :))

wombatofthenorth
07-25-2016, 02:34 AM
Also could some one help me answer if I'm overall more Finnic,Turkic or Slavic. Thanks :))

I'd definitely say more Slavic, your Finnic score is not that high nor the Asia Minor stuff.

Morges
07-25-2016, 07:09 AM
I have a few Tatar cousins on 23andme and I also share with a bunch more, can post some data from them so you can compare yourself to their results.

Chuvash mix:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Chuvash.png

Balkan Tatar:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Balkan_T.png

Central Asian Tatar (Uzbekistan I think he was from):
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Central_T.png

Mishar Tatar with some Jewish ancestry:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Mish_Jew_T.png

Mishar Tatar:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Mish_T2.png

Mishar Tatar:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Mish_T.png

Volga Tatar:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Volga_T.png

Hope this helps..

Interesting too

Bes
07-25-2016, 09:46 AM
I'd definitely say more Slavic, your Finnic score is not that high nor the Asia Minor stuff.

Interesting. Never identified as such

tippy
07-25-2016, 09:52 AM
Sorry - I missed the information, what % Russkiye/Russian are you and what % Tatar are you? Also, welcome.

Bes
07-25-2016, 11:56 AM
Sorry - I missed the information, what % Russkiye/Russian are you and what % Tatar are you? Also, welcome.

Thanks Bro! My grandfather on my paternal side is Crimean Tatar and everything else is presumed Russian so 1/4 Tatar and 3/4 Russian. But I have always identified as Tatar over Russian as I grew up being mentored by my paternal side which taught me Islamic way of thinking even though I'm agnostic and having a Turko-Muslim surname made me stand out from the general Russian population. I also take pride in my Crimean Tatar roots which honestly for me is the main part of my identity even though it only makes up a 1/4 of my genetics. This is part of the reason why I question my results, are my Turkic roots strong, can I identify as Russian, Mordvin or Tatar? I recently had a family reunion where my tatar family was present and some of them did not take kindly my pride in their culture as I do not look Tatar but rather a tall blonde Russian. So I would like to know about my results a bit more as my interpretation is that I'm more Finnic than Slavic or Turkic because I cluster between Erzya and Kargopol Russians or is that just because I'm metis?

tippy
07-25-2016, 12:19 PM
In that case:

1 79% Russian_North (derived) + 21% Tatar_Crim (derived) @ 3.23

Makes a lot of sense.

Anyway, genetics can't tell you how to identify, but it can tell you who your ancestors (largely) were. It's really up to you whether you identify as finnic, slavic, turkic etc as these are all man-made cultural identifications. If you feel as though you are a tatar first and foremost then maybe identify as Turkic? There's also nothing wrong with being mixed, so you can be both slavic and turkic at the same time and identify with both cultures together. Up to you. Anyway good luck and thanks for the interesting results.

Bes
07-25-2016, 12:26 PM
In that case:

1 79% Russian_North (derived) + 21% Tatar_Crim (derived) @ 3.23

Makes a lot of sense.

Anyway, genetics can't tell you how to identify, but it can tell you who your ancestors (largely) were. It's really up to you whether you identify as finnic, slavic, turkic etc as these are all man-made cultural identifications. If you feel as though you are a tatar first and foremost then maybe identify as Turkic? There's also nothing wrong with being mixed, so you can be both slavic and turkic at the same time and identify with both cultures together. Up to you. Anyway good luck and thanks for the interesting results.

Thanks brother! In that case I identify as Turkic through in through or Russian-Tatar

evon
07-25-2016, 06:46 PM
Bes you should upload your data to: www.Dna.Land

wombatofthenorth
07-26-2016, 03:55 AM
Thanks Bro! My grandfather on my paternal side is Crimean Tatar and everything else is presumed Russian so 1/4 Tatar and 3/4 Russian. But I have always identified as Tatar over Russian as I grew up being mentored by my paternal side which taught me Islamic way of thinking even though I'm agnostic and having a Turko-Muslim surname made me stand out from the general Russian population. I also take pride in my Crimean Tatar roots which honestly for me is the main part of my identity even though it only makes up a 1/4 of my genetics. This is part of the reason why I question my results, are my Turkic roots strong, can I identify as Russian, Mordvin or Tatar? I recently had a family reunion where my tatar family was present and some of them did not take kindly my pride in their culture as I do not look Tatar but rather a tall blonde Russian. So I would like to know about my results a bit more as my interpretation is that I'm more Finnic than Slavic or Turkic because I cluster between Erzya and Kargopol Russians or is that just because I'm metis?

Not sure why you think you test out more Finnic than Slavic or Turkic since the Finnic scores are not that high. Definitely looks a lot more Slavic than Finnic. In terms of the genes looks like Slavic by far most then maybe Tartic just barely above Finnic but it's all with a decent margin of error so could be either way.

As for whether you identify more as Russian or Tatar is up to you I think.

Bes
07-26-2016, 06:13 AM
Bes you should upload your data to: www.Dna.Land

http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y423/Titulus/raznay%20huinya/0fd47aaf-2865-47c9-b9c8-4c1fd67834ab_zpsmas4bikx.png (http://s1274.photobucket.com/user/Titulus/media/raznay%20huinya/0fd47aaf-2865-47c9-b9c8-4c1fd67834ab_zpsmas4bikx.png.html)

Bes
07-26-2016, 06:16 AM
Not sure why you think you test out more Finnic than Slavic or Turkic since the Finnic scores are not that high. Definitely looks a lot more Slavic than Finnic. In terms of the genes looks like Slavic by far most then maybe Tartic just barely above Finnic but it's all with a decent margin of error so could be either way.

As for whether you identify more as Russian or Tatar is up to you I think.

Strange. Users on another forum said I was Finnic more than Slavic and Turkic. Here is where I plot.

http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y423/Titulus/raznay%20huinya/786030cd-db19-4294-a45d-bff15942156d_zpsnwgebpce.png (http://s1274.photobucket.com/user/Titulus/media/raznay%20huinya/786030cd-db19-4294-a45d-bff15942156d_zpsnwgebpce.png.html)

Shaikorth
07-26-2016, 06:33 AM
Strange. Users on another forum said I was Finnic more than Slavic and Turkic. Here is where I plot.

http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y423/Titulus/raznay%20huinya/786030cd-db19-4294-a45d-bff15942156d_zpsnwgebpce.png (http://s1274.photobucket.com/user/Titulus/media/raznay%20huinya/786030cd-db19-4294-a45d-bff15942156d_zpsnwgebpce.png.html)

PCA plotting can be misleading, someone who's mainly English with some ancestry from the orient could plot close to where you do, without having any connections to Eastern Europe.

Morges
07-26-2016, 08:22 AM
Evon sorry for the OT, but do you have 23andme scores of Mari, Udmurts, Chuvash, Mordivian and co?

Morges
07-26-2016, 08:25 AM
http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y423/Titulus/raznay%20huinya/0fd47aaf-2865-47c9-b9c8-4c1fd67834ab_zpsmas4bikx.png (http://s1274.photobucket.com/user/Titulus/media/raznay%20huinya/0fd47aaf-2865-47c9-b9c8-4c1fd67834ab_zpsmas4bikx.png.html)

Interesting

Bes
07-26-2016, 09:54 AM
Interesting

Yeah I don't think the Thai results are legit.

Shaikorth
07-26-2016, 10:01 AM
Evon sorry for the OT, but do you have 23andme scores of Mari, Udmurts, Chuvash, Mordivian and co?

We have Crimean Tatar results in the DNAland thread. The Italian could be the algorithm confusing it with Balkan of Azov Greeks?

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6860-DNA-land-update&p=150187&viewfull=1#post150187

Morges
07-26-2016, 10:05 AM
We have Crimean Tatar results in the DNAland thread. The Italian could be the algorithm cofusing it with Balkan of Azov Greeks?

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6860-DNA-land-update&p=150187&viewfull=1#post150187

Or maybe he could have distant Italian ancestor?some Italians settled in Crimea.

Shaikorth
07-26-2016, 10:10 AM
Or maybe he could have distant Italian ancestor?some Italians settled in Crimea.

Would be unlikely he had zero Balkan even then. These two components can easily be confused by the algorithm. One of the academic HGDP Bergamo samples kingjohn uploaded got 44% Balkan and no Italian, but that sample most definitely is an Italian as demonstrated by its behaviour in academic papers.

evon
07-26-2016, 10:33 AM
Yeah I don't think the Thai results are legit.

They likely reflect ancestry associated with southern China rather than with Thai and Cambodia, at least that is my understanding of it as my family usually score low % SE Asian, which I suspect is connected with the suspected Tatar connection.. Maybe it is time to ask some more skilled people for their advice? I will ask David if he has some useful input in regard to the SE Asian %...

evon
07-26-2016, 10:35 AM
Evon sorry for the OT, but do you have 23andme scores of Mari, Udmurts, Chuvash, Mordivian and co?

I posted a Chuvash result. I do have some Khanty, Mari etc, but I dont remember their names, so it would take hours to find them...maybe when I get transferred to the new platform things will be easier..I will look into it then..

Morges
07-26-2016, 10:41 AM
I posted a Chuvash result. I do have some Khanty, Mari etc, but I dont remember their names, so it would take hours to find them...maybe when I get transferred to the new platform things will be easier..I will look into it then..

Ok, send me them on pm when you want.

Generalissimo
07-26-2016, 11:02 AM
Almost all East Asians can be characterized as admixed between Onge-like Southeast Asians and MA1-like ancient Siberians. Admixture interprets this in various ways depending on the analysis, population and even individual.

In other words, even when someone is showing a bit of "Southeast Asian" in an Admixture run, this ancestry might actually be from anywhere in East Asia,, and even Northeast Asia.

Captain Nordic
07-26-2016, 12:55 PM
Not sure why you think you test out more Finnic than Slavic or Turkic since the Finnic scores are not that high. Definitely looks a lot more Slavic than Finnic. In terms of the genes looks like Slavic by far most then maybe Tartic just barely above Finnic but it's all with a decent margin of error so could be either way.

As for whether you identify more as Russian or Tatar is up to you I think.

His closest matches are Mordovians and Kargopol Russians...
How is that not very finnic?!

Shaikorth
07-26-2016, 01:00 PM
His closest matches are Mordovians and Kargopol Russians...
How is that not very finnic?!

Only on some calculators and PCA, but that is a coincidental position due to references. As most of his ancestry is Russian and the rest Crimean Tatar - which is much less related to Mordovians - his closest IBD matches should almost certainly be Russians, perhaps even Belarusians, and not Mordovians.

Captain Nordic
07-26-2016, 01:00 PM
Probably a mix of Turkic and Finnic with some Slavic as well B)

Captain Nordic
07-26-2016, 01:02 PM
Only on some calculators and PCA, but that is a coincidental position due to references. As most of his ancestry is Russian and the rest Crimean Tatar - which is much less related to Mordovians - his closest IBD matches should almost certainly be Russians, perhaps even Belarusians, and not Mordovians.

He is of North Russian ancestry which is practically mostly of Finnic origin.
I do agree that it's kinda weird that he shows such great relations with Mordovians and not Vepsians, Karelians etc.

Volat
07-26-2016, 01:09 PM
Only on some calculators and PCA, but that is a coincidental position due to references. As most of his ancestry is Russian and the rest Crimean Tatar - which is much less related to Mordovians - his closest IBD matches should almost certainly be Russians, perhaps even Belarusians, and not Mordovians.

I doubt. He's pretty much a Volgaic Finn looking at his numerous results. Ask him to put results for 'countries of ancestry' (ibd) from 23andme. Very likely he's a Russian & Finn. Those Russians that have Volga Finnic ancestry.

Shaikorth
07-26-2016, 01:10 PM
He is of North Russian ancestry which is practically mostly of Finnic origin.
I do agree that it's kinda weird that he shows such great relations with Mordovians and not Vepsians, Karelians etc.

Vepsians and Karelians are quite distinct from North Russians - there is some kind of Komi-like substrate. Perhaps related to Meryans or some other extinct people or Komis used to extend a lot further west.

Srkz got this result when trying an oracle-like method on modeling Kargopol Russians with IBD segments:

1. Komi-Izhma 20% + Russian-Pinega 30% + Russian-Pskov 50% @ 29,09
2. Russian-Pinega 50% + Russian-Pskov 45% + Tatar-Lithuanian 5% @ 29,33
3. Mari 5% + Russian-Pinega 45% + Russian-Pskov 50% @ 29,41
4. Karelian 10% + Komi-Izhma 35% + Russian-Pskov 55% @ 29,81
5. Estonian 20% + Komi-Izhma 40% + Russian-Pskov 40% @ 29,98

Srkz could do an IBD analysis for Bes too, he can be contacted here: http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,7120.0.html

Captain Nordic
07-26-2016, 01:16 PM
Vepsians and Karelians are quite distinct from North Russians - there is some kind of Komi-like substrate. Perhaps related to Meryans or some other extinct people or Komis used to extend a lot further west.

Srkz got this result when trying an oracle-like method on modeling Kargopol Russians with IBD segments:

1. Komi-Izhma 20% + Russian-Pinega 30% + Russian-Pskov 50% @ 29,09
2. Russian-Pinega 50% + Russian-Pskov 45% + Tatar-Lithuanian 5% @ 29,33
3. Mari 5% + Russian-Pinega 45% + Russian-Pskov 50% @ 29,41
4. Karelian 10% + Komi-Izhma 35% + Russian-Pskov 55% @ 29,81
5. Estonian 20% + Komi-Izhma 40% + Russian-Pskov 40% @ 29,98

Srkz could do an IBD analysis for Bes too, he can be contacted here: http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,7120.0.html

Haven't you said before that North Russians are basically Vepsians with some Komi admixture? ;) :dance:

I noticed that their Russian North sample is not the usual Kargopol/HGDP one that clusters with Mordovians, but four individuals from the village of Pinega, eastern Archangelsk oblast.

They aren't really like other North Russians such as the Kargopol sample, and look more like Vepsians with a bit of Komi admixture genetically. Srkz confirmed this with IBD.
http://s017.radikal.ru/i438/1508/53/7b44b4e254ad.png

Volat
07-26-2016, 01:18 PM
All north-east Europeans have genetic similarities. They share common ancestry. These are Slavs, Balts, Baltic Finns and Volgaic Finns. Genetically, Bes is a Slav with extra East Asian component in his genome. This puts him similar to people of Volga-Ural region. His genome looks to that of Volgaic Finns, Karelians, Vepsa and those Russian who are mixed with Finno-Ugric people.

Captain Nordic
07-26-2016, 01:23 PM
All north-east Europeans have genetic similarities. That is sharing some common ancestry. These are Slavs, Balts, Baltic Finns and Volgaic Finns. Genetically, Bes is a Slav with extra East Asian component in his genome. This puts him similar to people of Volga-Ural region. His genome looks Volgaic Finn, Karelian, Vepsa and those Russian who are mixed with Finno-Ugric people.

That's very true. A lot of people assume that if a Finnic ethnic group shows similarities with a Baltic one then they absolutely have to be of the same origin, not realizing that many times this goes beyond meta ethnicity (although not always of course).

However, how can Bes be genetically a Slav when he shows more genetic similarities with non Slavs?

Shaikorth
07-26-2016, 01:24 PM
Haven't you said before that North Russians are basically Vepsians with some Komi admixture? ;) :dance:

Well those are Pinega Russians, quite distinct from Kargopol or most North Russians. Unless Bes' ancestry is from there it won't have much bearing.

Srkz got more Komi samples and picture has cleared since: current IBD modeling for Pinega is:


Karelian 40% + Komi-Zyryan-SW 30% + Russian-Solvychegodsk 30% @ 21,2
Karelian 45% + Komi-Zyryan-SW 35% + Russian-Novgorod 20% @ 21,7
Karelian 50% + Komi-Zyryan-SW 30% + Russian-Tver 20% @ 21,92

Captain Nordic
07-26-2016, 01:33 PM
Well those are Pinega Russians, quite distinct from Kargopol or most North Russians. Unless Bes' ancestry is from there it won't have much bearing.

Srkz got more Komi samples and picture has cleared since: current IBD modeling for Pinega is:


Karelian 40% + Komi-Zyryan-SW 30% + Russian-Solvychegodsk 30% @ 21,2
Karelian 45% + Komi-Zyryan-SW 35% + Russian-Novgorod 20% @ 21,7
Karelian 50% + Komi-Zyryan-SW 30% + Russian-Tver 20% @ 21,92

Thank you!

So basically, Pinega Russians are Karelian + Komi + some Slavic admixture?

Shaikorth
07-26-2016, 01:36 PM
Thank you!

So basically, Pinega Russians are Karelian + Komi + some Slavic admixture?

That's what it looks like now, and Kargopol is Slavic (Pskov best fit) + Komi with some Karelian or Estonian or other Baltic Finnic. Bes' results might turn out different again depending on where exactly his Russian ancestry is from.

Of course ancient DNA would be the best method to solve this, this is just what can be done with modern proxies.

Bes
07-26-2016, 01:38 PM
That's very true. A lot of people assume that if a Finnic ethnic group shows similarities with a Baltic one then they absolutely have to be of the same origin, not realizing that many times this goes beyond meta ethnicity (although not always of course).

However, how can Bes be genetically a Slav when he shows more genetic similarities with non Slavs?

I agree! I never identified as Slavic only through language and after my results I started seeing myself as Finno-Turkic mix. B)

Volat
07-26-2016, 01:40 PM
Bes is a Volgaic Finn and some Turkic ancestry. I never understood why certain Finns and Estonians are distancing themselves from other Finnic and Ugric people.

Shaikorth
07-26-2016, 01:42 PM
Bes is a Volgaic Finn and some Turkic ancestry. I never understood why certain Finns and Estonians are distancing themselves from other Finnic and Ugric people.

So you'd expect his closest IBD matches will be Erzya and Moksha?

Captain Nordic
07-26-2016, 01:45 PM
Bes is a Volgaic Finn and some Turkic ancestry. I never understood why certain Finns and Estonians are distancing themselves from other Finnic and Ugric people.

I think most Finns and Estonians just regard themself as Baltic finns. Karelians, Vepsians, Livonians etc are considereed their kindred people basically.
In fact, Finns even tried to liberate their cousins and create Greater Finland.

I think the feeling of unity stops there though. Most Finns/Estonians probably don't even know what an Erzya is.

Volat
07-26-2016, 01:47 PM
So you'd expect his closest IBD matches will be Erzya and Moksha?

I am sceptical about IBD analysis in all honesty, after seeing IBD analyses for many people of different ethnicities at 23andme. On 23andme it was known as countries of ancestry. I personally got Germany and UK as countries of my ancestries. I don't have any German and English in my ancestry. Other east Europeans get Romanian, Hungarian, Austrian ancestries as their top choice. Some Swedes get east Europeans. Balts and Poles get Russia etc.

Bes
07-26-2016, 01:48 PM
My ancestry apart from Yaliboylu Crimean Tatar is from Nizhniy Novgorod on the Volga, Ekaterinburg in the Urals. I was born in Komi Republic. My 23andme put Finland and Russia as top two.

Shaikorth
07-26-2016, 01:51 PM
I am sceptical about IBD analysis in all honesty, after seeing IBD analyses for many people of different ethnicities at 23andme. On 23andme it was known as countries of ancestry. I personally got Germany and UK as countries of my ancestries. I don't have any German and English in my ancestry. Other east Europeans get Romanian, Hungarian, Austrian ancestries as their top choice. Some Swedes get east Europeans. Balts and Poles get Russia etc.

IBD analysis is reliable, that's why it's used in academic studies. Many commercial tests are lacking or offer poor tools for interpretation. To be honest you should try Srkz's IBD analysis, he has academic samples. 23andMe's is screwed by overrepresentation of certain peoples and underrepresentation of others. This is a Belarusian IBD heatmap result, back in the day he had less samples but it seems accurate to me:

https://verenich.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/belarusianibd.png

Volat
07-26-2016, 01:58 PM
I think most Finns and Estonians just regard themself as Baltic finns. Karelians, Vepsians, Livonians etc are considereed their kindred people basically.
In fact, Finns even tried to liberate their cousins and create Greater Finland.

I think the feeling of unity stops there though. Most Finns/Estonians probably don't even know what an Erzya is.


It maybe because many Finno-Ugric people are living in Russia speaking Russian language. Finns and Estonians have had a history of bad relations with the Russians. I've seen Finno-Ugric people of Russia trying to know more about Finns and Estonians. They were rejected because they were seen as Russians.

Southern Slavs are trying to associate with with northern Slavs searching for any commonalities. I've seen Balkan Slavs cherry-picking Baltid looking southern Slavs, because they wanted to be similar to us. I've seen them searching for cultural similarities with Slavs living in northern Slavia. How can one reject them? Genetics is the last thing common folks will have on their minds.

Captain Nordic
07-26-2016, 02:00 PM
It maybe because many Finno-Ugric people are living in Russia speaking Russian language. Finns and Estonians have had a history of bad relations with the Russians. I've seen Finno-Ugric people of Russia trying to know more about Finns and Estonians. They were rejected because they were seen as Russians.

Southern Slavs are trying to associate with with northern Slavs searching for any commonalities. I've seen Balkan Slavs cherry-picking Baltid looking southern Slavs, because they wanted to be similar to us. I've seen them searching for cultural similarities with Slavs living in northern Slavia. How can one reject them? Genetics is the last thing common folks will have on their minds.

Yes, i suspect so. Russification has played a major role when it comes to the relations with Finns/Estonians and other FU people.

Volat
07-26-2016, 02:00 PM
IBD analysis is reliable, that's why it's used in academic studies.

IBD is not used extensively in academic research. But it has an application in forensic science to determine relatedness between individuals rather than populations.

Shaikorth
07-26-2016, 02:05 PM
IBD is not used extensively in academic research. But it has an application in forensic science to determine relatedness between individuals rather than populations.

It is becoming more and more common in determining population relationships in academic studies, just like haplotype analysis using Chromopainter and applications. That's because it's useful in picking common descent, rather than just generic similarity.

To give examples, just concerning Eastern Europe IBD has been used in Yunusbayev et al. study about the Turkic expansions, Kushniarevich et al. study about the Balto-Slavs, and now the just released Lipka Tatar study.

Gravetto-Danubian
07-26-2016, 02:05 PM
IBD analysis is reliable, that's why it's used in academic studies. Many commercial tests are lacking or offer poor tools for interpretation. To be honest you should try Srkz's IBD analysis, he has academic samples. 23andMe's is screwed by overrepresentation of certain peoples and underrepresentation of others. This is a Belarusian IBD heatmap result, back in the day he had less samples but it seems accurate to me:

https://verenich.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/belarusianibd.png

What is its "cut off" line in terms of generations back for aDNA (beyond which it becomes useless or unreliable)?

Shaikorth
07-26-2016, 02:14 PM
What is its "cut off" line in terms of generations back for aDNA (beyond which it becomes useless or unreliable)?

There is a point where it starts to resemble IBS, certainly. But it could for instance pick up the signal of Turkic expansions and separate Turkic speakers based on that.


But it's obvious something as old as Vestonice16 won't really tell much:

IBD (http://s018.radikal.ru/i502/1605/e9/01c9b6539c74.png)

IBS (http://oi64.tinypic.com/2hwp9y1.jpg)

Not much difference, there's some obvious things like ancestry outside Europe is pulling Volga Tatars away in IBS.

Volat
07-26-2016, 02:19 PM
It is becoming more and more common in determining population relationships in academic studies, just like haplotype analysis using Chromopainter and applications. That's because it's useful in picking common descent, rather than just generic similarity.

To give examples, just concerning Eastern Europe IBD has been used in Yunusbayev et al. study about the Turkic expansions, Kushniarevich et al. study about the Balto-Slavs, and now the just released Lipka Tatar study.

I know the methodology used in IBD analysis. It has its uses and limitations. IBD is best suited in forensic science to determine relatedness of individuals. For example who're parents of the child.

Shaikorth
07-26-2016, 02:23 PM
Mate! I know the methodology used in IBD analysis. It has its uses and limitations. IBD is best suited in forensic science to determine relatedness of individuals.

It's clearly, as scientists have started to use it within the last five years or so, also useful for determining (relatively recent) common ancestry of populations. It can even used to debunk things like the Khazar theory by pointing how Ashkenazi's closest cousins are the Sephardic Jews.

Captain Nordic
07-26-2016, 02:24 PM
It's clearly, as scientists have started to use it within the last five years or so, also useful for determining (relatively recent) common ancestry of populations. It can even used to debunk things like the Khazar theory by pointing how Ashkenazi's closest cousins are the Sephardic Jews.

Or how the Irish are supposedly the closest genetic cousins to the Basques ;) :rofl:

Bes
07-26-2016, 02:29 PM
Only on some calculators and PCA, but that is a coincidental position due to references. As most of his ancestry is Russian and the rest Crimean Tatar - which is much less related to Mordovians - his closest IBD matches should almost certainly be Russians, perhaps even Belarusians, and not Mordovians.

Can I get results like this and contest this?

Volat
07-26-2016, 02:34 PM
It's clearly, as scientists have started to use it within the last five years or so, also useful for determining (relatively recent) common ancestry of populations. It can even used to debunk things like the Khazar theory by pointing how Ashkenazi's closest cousins are the Sephardic Jews.

Scientists can apply all kinds of methods available to them. IBD analysis has not been consistent in 23andme that has more than a million genotyped customers.

Shaikorth
07-26-2016, 02:35 PM
Can I get results like this and contest this?

You should contact srkz. I don't have his email but if you don't want to register on molgen.org and ask there you can ask him to do a test for you in the comment section https://verenich.wordpress.com/

Shaikorth
07-26-2016, 02:51 PM
Scientists can apply all kinds of methods available to them. IBD analysis has not been consistent in 23andme that has more than a million genotyped customers.

23andMe's main problem in this case: there are hundreds of thousands of white Americans and Northwest Europeans in the database, and their Belarusian numbers are a tiny fraction of that. Even if your average IBD sharing is higher with Belarusians, most of your matches will be Western Europeans because the database is skewed.

Volat
07-26-2016, 02:55 PM
23andMe's main problem in this case: there are hundreds of thousands of white Americans and Northwest Europeans in the database, and their Belarusian numbers are a tiny fraction of that. Even if your average IBD sharing is higher with Belarusians, most of your matches will be Western Europeans because the database is skewed.

There's an option to turn off Americans from the analysis. It still does not give accurate results for Europeans. Not just for Belarusians but for most Europeans. Look! IBD is only useful to determine relatedness of individuals. I sincerely doubt the accuracy of the results when it's applied to populations.

Shaikorth
07-26-2016, 02:59 PM
There's an option to turn off Americans from the analysis. It still does not give accurate results for European. Not just for Belarusians. For most Europeans. Look IBD is only useful to determine relatedness of individuals. I sincerely doubt the accuracy of the results when it's applied to populations.

Even when Americans are turned off the West Euros way outnumber Eastern Slavs, or Balkanites, or Balts etc. But what is the total combined IBD length an average Englishman shares with you compared to the average Belarusian and does 23andMe even offer you an easy way to calculate it? Populations are made of individuals, that is why IBD is useful in measuring their relatedness and why scientists use it.

Volat
07-26-2016, 03:06 PM
Even when Americans are turned off the West Euros way outnumber Eastern Slavs, or Balkanites, or Balts etc. But what is the total combined IBD length an average Englishman shares with you compared to the average Belarusian and does 23andMe even offer you an easy way to calculate it? Populations are made of individuals, that is why IBD is useful in measuring their relatedness and why scientists use it.

Scientists seldom use IBD in their reseraches despite the method has been available for a long time. Much longer than ADMIXTURE, STRUCTURE, D-statistic, 3-population statistic, 4-population statistic, treemix. If you don't trust a someone like meor you cannot understand why IBD hasn't been used extensively in population genetics, then use common sense asking yourself why it's not a popular method in population genetics.

Bes
07-26-2016, 03:14 PM
You should contact srkz. I don't have his email but if you don't want to register on molgen.org and ask there you can ask him to do a test for you in the comment section https://verenich.wordpress.com/

Eyy I found him on the fourm you sent. What test do I ask him for? Or does he only do the one?

Shaikorth
07-26-2016, 03:15 PM
Scientists seldom use IBD in their reseraches despite the method has been available for a long time. Much longer than ADMIXTURE, STRUCTURE, D-statistic, 3-population static, 4-population static, treemix. If you don't trust a someone like me on forum or you cannot understand why IBD hasn't been used extensively in population genetics, then use common sense asking yourself why it's not a popular method in population genetics.

It's only now getting popular, call it academic viscosity. I already mentioned those major studies from recent times. 23andMe being unwieldy and having a skewed database does not devalue the method. This quote from Yunusbayev et al. is telling enough of its usefulness.


However, western Turkic peoples sampled across West Eurasia shared an excess of long chromosomal tracts that are identical by descent (IBD) with populations from present-day South Siberia and Mongolia (SSM), an area where historians center a series of early Turkic and non-Turkic steppe polities. While SSM matching IBD tracts (> 1cM) are also observed in non-Turkic populations, Turkic peoples demonstrate a higher percentage of such tracts (p-values ≤ 0.01) compared to their non-Turkic neighbors.

Shaikorth
07-26-2016, 03:15 PM
Eyy I found him on the fourm you sent. What test do I ask him for? Or does he only do the one?
The IBD test is the usual one he does.

Volat
07-26-2016, 03:22 PM
It's only now getting popular, call it academic viscosity. I already mentioned those major studies from recent times. 23andMe being unwieldy and having a skewed database does not devalue the method. This quote from Yunusbayev et al. is telling enough of its usefulness.

I doubt IBD will ever become widely used in population genetics due to its limitations in application to populations. IBD is a useful method to determine relatedness of individuals having recent common ancestry. But not in general applications in population genetics.

Shaikorth
07-26-2016, 03:27 PM
I doubt IBD will ever become widely used in population genetics due to its limitations in application to populations. IBD is a useful method to determine relatedness of individuals having recent common ancestry. But not in general applications in population genetics.

Well we must just disagree on that then. A quote from the Lipka Tatar paper about IBD:


In contrast to this pattern, BLT display increased level of average number of IBD segments and average total length of genome shared identical-by-descent with Kazakhs from Central Asia (2 segments and 3.5 cM per pair), and most of the Siberian and Mongolian populations (~1.7 segments (2.5 cM) per pair), compared to Belarusians, who on average share 1 IBD segment (1.6 cM) per pair with individuals from those populations (Fig. 3). Thus, IBD analysis reveals pronounced admixture between BLT and their contemporary host populations on one hand, and a signal of shared genetic ancestry with populations from a region spanning Kazakhstan, South Siberia/Mongolia and northern China on the other.

evon
07-26-2016, 06:24 PM
Almost all East Asians can be characterized as admixed between Onge-like Southeast Asians and MA1-like ancient Siberians. Admixture interprets this in various ways depending on the analysis, population and even individual.

In other words, even when someone is showing a bit of "Southeast Asian" in an Admixture run, this ancestry might actually be from anywhere in East Asia,, and even Northeast Asia.

Thanks for the input, it is basically what I suspected, although I did not think south east and north Asian could get mixed up that easily..

wombatofthenorth
07-26-2016, 09:54 PM
His closest matches are Mordovians and Kargopol Russians...
How is that not very finnic?!

It has a lot of Finnic influence and Finnic shows up but at the end of the day do all his tests show a majority of Finnish score or not? It seems they don't. It's an important component but it doesn't seem to dominate in his ancestry breakdowns.

wombatofthenorth
07-26-2016, 09:59 PM
Bes is a Volgaic Finn and some Turkic ancestry. I never understood why certain Finns and Estonians are distancing themselves from other Finnic and Ugric people.

In a paper that I read on PLOS from 2015 it said that Estonians are a closer autosomal match to Latvians than to Finns (although they are also a much closer match to Finns than Latvians are). In terms of Y DNA they found that Estonians were a close match to Finns as were actually Latvians too.

wombatofthenorth
07-26-2016, 10:02 PM
I am sceptical about IBD analysis in all honesty, after seeing IBD analyses for many people of different ethnicities at 23andme. On 23andme it was known as countries of ancestry. I personally got Germany and UK as countries of my ancestries. I don't have any German and English in my ancestry. Other east Europeans get Romanian, Hungarian, Austrian ancestries as their top choice. Some Swedes get east Europeans. Balts and Poles get Russia etc.

That is not what Countries of Ancestry was. That tool just showed where your cousins, often very, very distant counsins, lived in recent times. In many cases it just showed places where some of your cousins ended up and had nothing to do with where your ancestry came from. I got everything from Brazil to Costa Rica to South Africa to Japan showing up in Countries of Ancestry and none of that is part of my direct ancestry. It's just that some distant cousin branches had people who left Europe and ended up in those places.

So all it said is that some of your ancestors cousins ended up moving to Germany or the U.K. at some point not that your own ancestry traces from there.

wombatofthenorth
07-26-2016, 10:07 PM
IBD analysis is reliable, that's why it's used in academic studies. Many commercial tests are lacking or offer poor tools for interpretation. To be honest you should try Srkz's IBD analysis, he has academic samples. 23andMe's is screwed by overrepresentation of certain peoples and underrepresentation of others. This is a Belarusian IBD heatmap result, back in the day he had less samples but it seems accurate to me:

https://verenich.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/belarusianibd.png

Interesting. One September 2015 I read implied a semi-similar result but somewhat shifted, they said that of the Balts/East/West/North Slavs the tightest group was between Belorussian/Ukrainian/Russian-South with Ukrainian/Russian-South the closest of all. So they sort of had it like that map I guess but with some of the Balt and Russian-West heavy shading shifted down more to Ukraine and Russian-South.

wombatofthenorth
07-26-2016, 10:09 PM
Or how the Irish are supposedly the closest genetic cousins to the Basques ;) :rofl:

Wasn't that 'study' just done by some random doctor who also made claims that a Germanic language was spoken in the U.K. tens of thousands of years ago!

Shaikorth
07-26-2016, 10:13 PM
Interesting. One September 2015 I read implied a semi-similar result but somewhat shifted (I'm not sure, but I don't think they used IBD), they said that of the Balts/East/West/North Slavs the tightest group was between Belorussian/Ukrainian/Russian-South with Ukrainian/Russian-South the closest of all. So they sort of had it like that map I guess but with some of the Balt and Russian-West heavy shading shifted down more to Ukraine and Russian-South.

Yeah, Belarusians being Balt-shifted compared to East Ukrainians and South Russians is sensible.

wombatofthenorth
07-26-2016, 10:19 PM
Yeah, Belarusians being Balt-shifted compared to East Ukrainians and South Russians is sensible.

Actually I meant that they had Belorussians shifted a bit more away from Balts and Russian-North than your map showed a bit more toward Ukraine and Russian-South (although maybe you were just referring to where I said and they had Ukraine and Russian-South the most closely matched of all and took Belorussians a bit more Balts and Russian-North shifted than Ukrainians and Russians-South, which is probably true, but they still had them shifted closer to Ukrainians and Russians-South than to Balts or Russians-North).

Shaikorth
07-26-2016, 10:28 PM
(although maybe you were just referring to where I said and they had Ukraine and Russian-South the most closely matched of all and took Belorussians a bit more Balts and Russian-North shifted than Ukrainians and Russians-South, which is probably true, but they still had them shifted closer to Ukrainians and Russians-South than to Balts or Russians-North).

Yeah, this is what I was referring to.

Volat
07-26-2016, 10:58 PM
That is not what Countries of Ancestry was. That tool just showed where your cousins, often very, very distant counsins, lived in recent times. In many cases it just showed places where some of your cousins ended up and had nothing to do with where your ancestry came from. I got everything from Brazil to Costa Rica to South Africa to Japan showing up in Countries of Ancestry and none of that is part of my direct ancestry. It's just that some distant cousin branches had people who left Europe and ended up in those places.

So all it said is that some of your ancestors cousins ended up moving to Germany or the U.K. at some point not that your own ancestry traces from there.

Identitcal-by-Descent (IBD) was behind it showing length of segments shared in cM in each chromosome.

Volat
07-26-2016, 11:03 PM
In a paper that I read on PLOS from 2015 it said that Estonians are a closer autosomal match to Latvians than to Finns (although they are also a much closer match to Finns than Latvians are). In terms of Y DNA they found that Estonians were a close match to Finns as were actually Latvians too.

How can Estonians more similar to Finns in terms of Y-DNA structure, if Estonians have ~35% of R1a1, Lithuanian 42% of R1a1 and Latvians 38% of R1a1 while Finns lack the R1a1 in significant amounts? Can you please reference that article published by PLOS?

wombatofthenorth
07-27-2016, 01:41 AM
Identitcal-by-Descent (IBD) was behind it showing length of segments shared in cM in each chromosome.

Yeah but the names of the countries listed didn't necessarily have anything to do with your ancestry. So when it said Germany or UK it wasn't trying to imply that you had German and UK ancestry, just some of your distant cousins ended up moving there at some recentish time.

Volat
07-27-2016, 01:46 AM
Yeah but the names of the countries listed didn't necessarily have anything to do with your ancestry. So when it said Germany or UK it wasn't trying to imply that you had German and UK ancestry, just some of your distant cousins ended up moving there at some recentish time.

Of course, these countries didn't. We had no relatives moving in Germany or UK. Short shared segments of IBD can occur by chance due to recombination of autosomal DNA with each passing generation.

wombatofthenorth
07-27-2016, 01:56 AM
I guess far north Russians do start to cluster up close to Finnish, looking at the 2015 paper. Although on the GEDMATCH stuff posted here they seemed much more Slavic so not sure what to make of the disparity, possibly depends what components you use.

wombatofthenorth
07-27-2016, 01:58 AM
Of course, these countries didn't. We had no relatives moving in Germany or UK. Short shared segments of IBD can occur by chance due to recombination of autosomal DNA with each passing generation.

Well few people have tracked all cousins from many generations back and seen where everyone ended up, so you every well might.
But certainly you can have chance events too. I also don't know what setting you set that tool at when you got those matches (I seem to recall it could be set pretty low, like only 5cM? which would increase the chance events greatly).

Bes
07-27-2016, 02:00 AM
I guess far north Russians do start to cluster up close to Finnish, looking at the 2015 paper. Although on the GEDMATCH stuff posted here they seemed much more Slavic so not sure what to make of the disparity.

What in particular is Slavic rather than Finnic?

wombatofthenorth
07-27-2016, 02:06 AM
How can Estonians more similar to Finns in terms of Y-DNA structure, if Estonians have ~35% of R1a1, Lithuanian 42% of R1a1 and Latvians 38% of R1a1 while Finns lack the R1a1 in significant amounts? Can you please reference that article published by PLOS?

Yes, that is odd. Looking for it. In the meantime one I referred to a lot is: "Genetic Geritage of the Balto-Slavic Speaking Populations: A Synthesis of Autosomal, Mitochondrial and Y-Chromosomal Data - published September 2, 2015

wombatofthenorth
07-27-2016, 02:07 AM
What in particular is Slavic rather than Finnic?

For starters that you got only 7% Finnish on 23 instead of more than 50%.

Bes
07-27-2016, 02:10 AM
For starters that you got only 7% Finnish on 23 instead of more than 50%.

Yeah oke but can you show me 23andme results of other Finnic groups living in Russia and would they have that much Finnish in their results?

Volat
07-27-2016, 02:16 AM
Yes, that is odd. Looking for it. In the meantime one I referred to a lot is: "Genetic Geritage of the Balto-Slavic Speaking Populations: A Synthesis of Autosomal, Mitochondrial and Y-Chromosomal Data - published September 2, 2015

I could not find anything in the article on Y-DNA structure of Estonian being more similar to Finnish than Baltic. This is what I found

Both extant Baltic-speaking populations, Latvians and Lithuanians, lie in the vicinity of Finno-Ugric-speaking Estonians according to their Y-chromosome diversity (Fig 2B), whilst in their autosomal variation they are slightly shifted towards the group of East Slavic speakers (Fig 2A).


This is the 2B figure for Y-chromosome diversity from the study




https://s32.postimg.org/8zq4yfr2t/image.png



----



PS I may generate a PCA plot for a comparison based on frequencies of haplgroups for Finns, Estonians , Lithuanians and Latvians later.

wombatofthenorth
07-27-2016, 04:04 AM
Yeah oke but can you show me 23andme results of other Finnic groups living in Russia and would they have that much Finnish in their results?

I'm not saying you are not a Finnic leaning group at all or not largely A Russo-Finnic group at all. I was just saying that some of those tests gave less than 50% of their component for Finnish. Some of my Finnish matches scores 98-99% Finnish on 23 so it is possible to get not just 50% but practically 100%. I wasn't really saying much, nothing more than that.

On Geno 2.0 NG (some similar to MyOrigins, at least a this point) it is a bit different the way they formed their components and an average Finnish person gets not nearly 100% Finland and Northern Siberia but:
11% Eastern Europe
61% Finland and Northern Siberia
19% Scandinavia
7% Central Asia

wombatofthenorth
07-27-2016, 04:06 AM
Here is the result from a North Russian, nearly a Kargopol Russian I believe for MyOrigins:
70% Eastern European + 26% Finnish and Siberian + 4% Northeast Asian

Volat
07-27-2016, 04:25 AM
I could not find anything in the article on Y-DNA structure of Estonian being more similar to Finnish than Baltic. This is what I found

Both extant Baltic-speaking populations, Latvians and Lithuanians, lie in the vicinity of Finno-Ugric-speaking Estonians according to their Y-chromosome diversity (Fig 2B), whilst in their autosomal variation they are slightly shifted towards the group of East Slavic speakers (Fig 2A).


This is the 2B figure for Y-chromosome diversity from the study

PS I may generate a PCA plot for a comparison based on frequencies of haplgroups for Finns, Estonians , Lithuanians and Latvians later.



The plot for Y-diversity presented in the study is MDS based on NEI distances between single individuals. There were only certain individuals selected as you can see on the plot or table D in spreadsheet : http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/asset?unique&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0135820.s007

I obtained frequency averages for the Y-chromosome markers for populations based on sufficiently large sample sizes. I generated a PCA based on frequencies for the populations. Data are in the tables K and N in the spreadsheet above.
Such a difference is due to elevated frequencies of R1a1 among Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Karelians_Vepsas (data for Karelians and Vepsas were combined by authors) and Komi.

Lithuanians - 42.2%
Latvians - 38.9%
Estonians - 37.3%
Karelian_Vepsas - 34.7%
Komi - 25.2%
Finns - 7.8%



https://s31.postimg.org/qsl47mqfv/Graph.png

Volat
07-27-2016, 04:35 AM
^ Data for above plot : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gXpEQi4Bp67QC40a2X9bijYo0CR4GUMOdhebldLj7V8/edit?usp=sharing

wombatofthenorth
07-27-2016, 04:48 AM
I could not find anything in the article on Y-DNA structure of Estonian being more similar to Finnish than Baltic. This is what I found


I didn't say that Estonians were more similar to Finnish than to the Baltics for Y but that Estonians and Latvians were a bit closer to Finnish for Y than to Slavic. And that came a bit garbled from what I wrote on another thread "interestingly all three Baltic nations, going by Y DNA only, are tied together and with the Finns much more than to any of the Slavic groups)"

(but that might not really be quite correct anyway)



Both extant Baltic-speaking populations, Latvians and Lithuanians, lie in the vicinity of Finno-Ugric-speaking Estonians according to their Y-chromosome diversity (Fig 2B), whilst in their autosomal variation they are slightly shifted towards the group of East Slavic speakers (Fig 2A).


I'm not sure if that is the statement that I recalled or if I saw something else in the paper or in one of the other papers I was looking over.

I see another statement in another paper "While on the basis of biallelic Y-chromosome markers Lithuanians are closer to Finno-Ugric populations rather than other Indo-European groups, associated STR diversity indicates different histories for populations in the East Baltic area, consistent with archaelogical data."

Perhaps other statements elsewhere that only dealt with similarities between particular haplogroups and SNPs and STRs and not all, etc.

I possibly turned Finno-Ugric above into strongly including Finland in my mind and by the time it got to this thread just turned it into Finland only and the others tying into that.

I have to look into it more to figure where I originally came up with any of the Y stuff I wrote. Probably partly correct, partly garbled.

Bes
07-27-2016, 04:48 AM
I'm not saying you are not a Finnic leaning group at all or not largely A Russo-Finnic group at all. I was just saying that some of those tests gave less than 50% of their component for Finnish. Some of my Finnish matches scores 98-99% Finnish on 23 so it is possible to get not just 50% but practically 100%. I wasn't really saying much, nothing more than that.

On Geno 2.0 NG (some similar to MyOrigins, at least a this point) it is a bit different the way they formed their components and an average Finnish person gets not nearly 100% Finland and Northern Siberia but:
11% Eastern Europe
61% Finland and Northern Siberia
19% Scandinavia
7% Central Asia

I think that the Finnish component on 23andme and other services are mainly made for Baltic Finns while Volgaic Finns like Ezyans and Mari differ genetically from their Baltic brothers. So this is why I wanted to see a erzyans results, because I think their result will be similar to mine (scratch the Turkic input)

Volat
07-27-2016, 05:49 AM
I didn't say that Estonians were more similar to Finnish than to the Baltics for Y but that Estonians and Latvians were a bit closer to Finnish for Y than to Slavic. And that came a bit garbled from what I wrote on another thread "interestingly all three Baltic nations, going by Y DNA only, are tied together and with the Finns much more than to any of the Slavic groups)"

Unlikely Y-DNA structure of Estonians and Latvians are a bit more similar to Finnish than to east Slavic. Not only Estonians and Latvians have plenty of R1a1, Latvians' N1c1 belong to a different clade N-M2783. The same clade N-M2783 is commonly found among eastern Slavs . Finns have their own N1c1 clades. Estonians have both Finnish and Baltic clades of N1c1. See the tree below


https://s32.postimg.org/49a8vi2ad/Dunkel23_2_2016_YFull4_02_SNP_N_TREE_FIN.jpg

Bes
07-30-2016, 02:50 AM
So you'd expect his closest IBD matches will be Erzya and Moksha?

I got my results! Pretty interesting turns out I'm pretty much Putin a true Veps XD

http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y423/Titulus/raznay%20huinya/f2332648-3fc1-4660-a410-130fac2778e0_zpshqflsg8g.png (http://s1274.photobucket.com/user/Titulus/media/raznay%20huinya/f2332648-3fc1-4660-a410-130fac2778e0_zpshqflsg8g.png.html)

http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y423/Titulus/raznay%20huinya/6c318d0f-0143-459e-beef-4948aec8116b_zpsc9n00pui.png (http://s1274.photobucket.com/user/Titulus/media/raznay%20huinya/6c318d0f-0143-459e-beef-4948aec8116b_zpsc9n00pui.png.html)

Shaikorth
07-30-2016, 06:23 AM
I got my results! Pretty interesting turns out I'm pretty much Putin a true Veps XD


Looks like you have more segments with Western Russians than with Erzya and Moksha as well. Did he give you the numbers too?

Bes
07-30-2016, 07:46 AM
Looks like you have more segments with Western Russians than with Erzya and Moksha as well. Did he give you the numbers too?

But also with Eastern Finns. And more so with Karelians.

0.00% Nilotic-Omotic
0.00% Ancestral-South-Ind.
42.62% North-European-Balt.
8.14% Uralic
0.49% Australo-Melanesian
3.54% East-Siberian
0.86% Ancestral-Yayoi
9.32% Caucasian-Near-East.
0.39% Tibeto-Burman
0.26% Austronesian
0.00% Central-African-Pygm
0.28% Central-African-HG
0.00% Nilo-Saharian
0.00% North-African
5.56% Gedrosia-Caucasian
0.65% Cushitic
0.00% Congo-Pygmean
0.01% Bushmen
0.49% South-Meso-Amerind.
9.26% South-West-European
0.00% North-Amerindian
1.19% Arabic
0.52% North-Circumpolar
1.38% Kalash
0.68% Papuan-Australian
14.36% Baltic-Finnic
0.00% Bantu

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Russian_Ural_East @ 3,305808
2 Russian_Ural_West @ 4,016846
3 Russian_Baykal @ 4,30678
4 Russian_Siberia @ 4,648154
5 Russian_Solvychegodsk @ 4,757865
6 Russian_Vyatka @ 4,922366
7 Russian_Tatarstan_Arsk @ 5,011465
8 Russian_Vyatka_NE @ 5,936323
9 Moksha @ 6,682222
10 Erzya @ 6,973158
11 Russian_Unzha @ 7,104077
12 Russian_Kargopol @ 7,342267
13 Russian_Uglich @ 8,451916
14 Tatar_Mishar_Drozzhanovskiy @ 8,701684
15 Russian_Ustyuzhna @ 8,802251
16 Russian_Tambov @ 9,198586
17 Russian_Meshtchyora @ 9,256947
18 Russian_Saratov @ 9,283539
19 Russian_Novgorod @ 9,42206
20 Russian_Ivanovo @ 9,546667
21 Tatar_Kryashen @ 9,732471
22 Russian_Moscow @ 9,795338
23 Russian_Voronezh @ 9,911078
24 Russian_Murom @ 10,045993
25 Komi_Izhma @ 10,403368
26 Russian_North_Dvina @ 10,502922
27 Russian_Lipetsk @ 10,529748
28 Russian_Tver @ 10,582616
29 Tatar_Mishar_South_West @ 10,610321
30 Russian_Mezen_Pinega @ 10,723794
31 Russian_Ryazan @ 10,865111
32 Tatar_Mishar_Nizhniy @ 10,928293
33 Russian_Bryansk @ 11,181805
34 Komi_Zyryan_SW @ 11,690664
35 Tatar_Bashkiria @ 11,720817
36 Russian_Don_Cossack @ 11,984056
37 Russian_Kursk_Oryol @ 12,044394
38 Tatar_Kazan_Tarhanovskiy @ 12,154191
39 Ukrainian_Poltava @ 12,474246
40 Ukrainian_Chernigov @ 12,6117
41 Russian_Kuban @ 12,804351
42 Ukrainian_Lvov @ 12,83861
43 Ukrainian_Vinnitsa @ 13,186928
44 Belarusian_Gomel @ 13,225587
45 Tatar_Kazan_Apastovskiy @ 13,365821
46 Russian_Andreapol @ 13,455746
47 Ukrainian_Slobozhanshtchina @ 13,588591
48 Belarusian_Mogilyov @ 13,840759
49 Tatar_Kazan_Kaybitskiy @ 13,870439
50 Russian_Smolensk @ 13,954528
128 iterations.

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 Komi_Izhma+Russian_Don_Cossack @ 2,307617
2 Russian_Kargopol+Tatar_Mishar_Drozzhanovskiy @ 2,818057
3 Russian_Tatarstan_Arsk+Russian_Vyatka_NE @ 3,077313
4 Komi_Izhma+Ukrainian_Vinnitsa @ 3,159999
5 Russian_Ustyuzhna+Tatar_Mishar_Drozzhanovskiy @ 3,191167
6 Russian_Baykal+Russian_Ural_East @ 3,240817
7 Komi_Izhma+Ukrainian_Lvov @ 3,241596
8 Russian_Ural_East+Russian_Ural_East @ 3,305808
9 Russian_Solvychegodsk+Tatar_Mishar_Drozzhanovskiy @ 3,344792
10 Russian_Tatarstan_Arsk+Russian_Ural_West @ 3,362381
11 Russian_Ural_East+Russian_Ural_West @ 3,37908
12 Russian_Unzha+Tatar_Mishar_Drozzhanovskiy @ 3,40596
13 Komi_Izhma+Russian_Tambov @ 3,440324
14 Komi_Izhma+Russian_Kuban @ 3,459132
15 Russian_Baykal+Russian_Tatarstan_Arsk @ 3,473231
16 Russian_Baykal+Russian_Solvychegodsk @ 3,485623
17 Russian_Novgorod+Tatar_Mishar_Drozzhanovskiy @ 3,495214
18 Russian_Baykal+Russian_Ural_West @ 3,520699
19 Komi_Izhma+Russian_Murom @ 3,539391
20 Russian_Baykal+Russian_Vyatka @ 3,613494
21 Komi_Izhma+Russian_Bryansk @ 3,631178
22 Komi_Izhma+Russian_Voronezh @ 3,635076
23 Komi_Izhma+Ukrainian_Poltava @ 3,660222
24 Moksha+Russian_Mezen_Pinega @ 3,667549
25 Russian_Kargopol+Tatar_Kryashen @ 3,668127
26 Komi_Izhma+Russian_Saratov @ 3,680789
27 Russian_Kargopol+Tatar_Mishar_Nizhniy @ 3,722556
28 Russian_Vyatka+Tatar_Mishar_Drozzhanovskiy @ 3,728666
29 Russian_Baykal+Russian_Siberia @ 3,76784
30 Russian_Solvychegodsk+Russian_Ural_East @ 3,771566
31 Russian_Solvychegodsk+Russian_Vyatka_NE @ 3,775883
32 Russian_Tatarstan_Arsk+Russian_Ural_East @ 3,78803
33 Komi_Izhma+Ukrainian_Slobozhanshtchina @ 3,798322
34 Russian_Siberia+Russian_Ural_East @ 3,79873
35 Komi_Izhma+Moksha @ 3,804128
36 Komi_Izhma+Russian_Moscow @ 3,823925
37 Russian_Solvychegodsk+Russian_Ural_West @ 3,824026
38 Moksha+Russian_North_Dvina @ 3,827819
39 Komi_Izhma+Ukrainian_Chernigov @ 3,833958
40 Russian_Ural_East+Russian_Vyatka_NE @ 3,86406
41 Russian_Novgorod+Tatar_Kryashen @ 3,879231
42 Komi_Izhma+Russian_Lipetsk @ 3,881264
43 Russian_Ural_East+Russian_Vyatka @ 3,886009
44 Komi_Izhma+Russian_Tver @ 3,888922
45 Russian_Kargopol+Tatar_Bashkiria @ 3,900135
46 Russian_Siberia+Russian_Ural_West @ 3,905159
47 Russian_Mezen_Pinega+Ukrainian_Lvov @ 3,910147
48 Russian_Siberia+Russian_Vyatka_NE @ 3,960129
49 Russian_Ural_West+Russian_Vyatka @ 3,96036
50 Russian_Novgorod+Tatar_Kazan_Apastovskiy @ 3,972128
8256 iterations.

Shaikorth
07-30-2016, 08:20 AM
But also with Eastern Finns. And more so with Karelians.



It's quite possible that your Russian grandparents had some Vepsian ancestry. Karelian is their closest relative so it would go up too.

But did he give you the IBD numbers on the map? Those you posted are calculator results and they show different things, the calculator tries to place you near eastern Russians and Vepsians don't even show up in the oracle which could means your Vepsian ancestry is real and recent, but there is not very much of it. Could you ask him to do an IBS too? That's the total genomewide similarity, recent and ancient.

Bes
07-31-2016, 06:44 AM
It's quite possible that your Russian grandparents had some Vepsian ancestry. Karelian is their closest relative so it would go up too.

But did he give you the IBD numbers on the map? Those you posted are calculator results and they show different things, the calculator tries to place you near eastern Russians and Vepsians don't even show up in the oracle which could means your Vepsian ancestry is real and recent, but there is not very much of it. Could you ask him to do an IBS too? That's the total genomewide similarity, recent and ancient.

You mean these?

Veps 73,19 ---//Confidence: medium
Karelian 65,1 ---//Confidence: high
Russian-North-East 62,5 ---//Confidence: very high
Komi 60,68 ---//Confidence: very high
Finnish-East 60,41 ---//Confidence: high
Russian-North-Kargopol 60,14 ---//Confidence: very high
Russian-West 58,89 ---//Confidence: very high
Balt 58,78 ---//Confidence: very high
Estonian 57,85 ---//Confidence: very high
Ukrainian-West-and-Center 57,51 ---//Confidence: high
Finnish-West 57,47 ---//Confidence: high
Chuvash 55,63 ---//Confidence: very high
Russian-South 55,47 ---//Confidence: very high
Polish 55,44 ---//Confidence: very high
Tatar-Volga 54,69 ---//Confidence: high
Belarusian 54,17 ---//Confidence: very high
Moksha 52,31 ---//Confidence: low
Slovak 52,26 ---//Confidence: high
Erzya 51,86 ---//Confidence: medium
Ukrainian-East-and-Center 51,43 ---//Confidence: high
Swedish 50,62 ---//Confidence: high
Norwegian 48,46 ---//Confidence: high
Irish-and-Scottish 47,58 ---//Confidence: high
Kosovar 47,43 ---//Confidence: medium
Udmurt 46,94 ---//Confidence: high
Mari 46,8 ---//Confidence: high
Hungarian 46,54 ---//Confidence: very high
Bulgarian 46,12 ---//Confidence: high
Croatian 46,03 ---//Confidence: very high
English 45,8 ---//Confidence: very high
Bosnian 45,64 ---//Confidence: medium
German 45,35 ---//Confidence: medium
Romanian 43,61 ---//Confidence: medium
Cornish 43,23 ---//Confidence: very high
Saami 42,17 ---//Confidence: medium
Tatar-Crimean 42,16 ---//Confidence: low
Serbian 41,82 ---//Confidence: high
Bashkir 41,43 ---//Confidence: very high
Slovenian 39,85 ---//Confidence: high
French 39,81 ---//Confidence: very high
Macedonian 38,81 ---//Confidence: medium
Gagauz 38,72 ---//Confidence: medium
Spanish 36,64 ---//Confidence: very high
Nogay 34,95 ---//Confidence: high
Montenegrian 34,05 ---//Confidence: medium
Italian-South 33,71 ---//Confidence: high
Basque 32,76 ---//Confidence: very high
Sicilian 32,61 ---//Confidence: very high
Balkarian 32,6 ---//Confidence: very high
Ashkenazi 32,43 ---//Confidence: high
Greek 31,98 ---//Confidence: very high
Mansi 31,94 ---//Confidence: low
Tadjik 31,84 ---//Confidence: high
Kumyk 31,63 ---//Confidence: high
Sephard 31,28 ---//Confidence: high
Tatar_Lithuanian 31,16 ---//Confidence: very low
Chechen 30,97 ---//Confidence: very high
Turkmen 30,96 ---//Confidence: very high
Tuscan 30,85 ---//Confidence: very high
Adygei 30,66 ---//Confidence: high
Sardinian 30,64 ---//Confidence: very high
Lezgin 30,07 ---//Confidence: very high
Abkhazian 29,8 ---//Confidence: very high
Turkish 29,33 ---//Confidence: very high
Georgian 28,87 ---//Confidence: very high
Pamiri 28,85 ---//Confidence: very high
Ossetian 27,49 ---//Confidence: high
Cypriot 27,45 ---//Confidence: medium
Selkup 27,26 ---//Confidence: high
Kurd 26,85 ---//Confidence: low
Uygur 26,77 ---//Confidence: medium
Azerbaijani 26,55 ---//Confidence: high
Shor 26,35 ---//Confidence: low
Uzbek 25,79 ---//Confidence: high
Dolgan 25,75 ---//Confidence: medium
Nenets 25,26 ---//Confidence: high
Uttar-Pradesh-HC 24,56 ---//Confidence: high
Greek_Azov 24,49 ---//Confidence: low
Mongol 24,41 ---//Confidence: medium
Kazah 23,95 ---//Confidence: high
Sindhi 23,56 ---//Confidence: very high
Kirgiz 23,35 ---//Confidence: very high
Druze 23,23 ---//Confidence: very high
Iranian 23,22 ---//Confidence: very high
Pathan 23,03 ---//Confidence: very high
Hakas 22,48 ---//Confidence: medium
Ket 22,4 ---//Confidence: low
Kalash 22,24 ---//Confidence: very high
Saud 22,12 ---//Confidence: very high
Balochi 22,04 ---//Confidence: very high
UAE 21,81 ---//Confidence: medium
Armenian 21,73 ---//Confidence: high
Nganassan 21,65 ---//Confidence: high
Palestinian 21,6 ---//Confidence: very high
Brahui 21,54 ---//Confidence: very high
Uttar-Pradesh 21,34 ---//Confidence: very high
Altaian 21,33 ---//Confidence: very high
Hazara 21,27 ---//Confidence: very high
Jordanian 21,13 ---//Confidence: very high
Yakut 19,9 ---//Confidence: very high
Burusho 19,9 ---//Confidence: very high
Makrani 19,85 ---//Confidence: very high
Moroccan 19,4 ---//Confidence: very high
Bedouin 19,39 ---//Confidence: very high
Tunisian 19,25 ---//Confidence: medium
Syrian 18,35 ---//Confidence: high
Gujarati 18,03 ---//Confidence: very high
Buryat 17,97 ---//Confidence: very high
Kanjar 17,97 ---//Confidence: low
Even 16,74 ---//Confidence: medium
Tuvinian 16,32 ---//Confidence: very high
Andhra-Pradesh 16,03 ---//Confidence: medium
Evenk 15,91 ---//Confidence: high
Xibo 14,53 ---//Confidence: medium
Egyptian 14,53 ---//Confidence: medium
Nivh 14,53 ---//Confidence: low
Tamil-Nadu 14,42 ---//Confidence: high
Kalmyk 13,9 ---//Confidence: medium
Kol 13,79 ---//Confidence: high
Oroqen 13,25 ---//Confidence: medium
Yemenite 13,1 ---//Confidence: medium
Lahu 12,5 ---//Confidence: low
Maya 12,27 ---//Confidence: very high
Karnataka 11,84 ---//Confidence: medium
Daur 11,58 ---//Confidence: medium
Kerala 11,31 ---//Confidence: medium
Burmese 11 ---//Confidence: high
Mongola 10,47 ---//Confidence: medium
Naxi 9,65 ---//Confidence: low
She 9,45 ---//Confidence: medium
Hezhen 9,21 ---//Confidence: low
Munda 9,11 ---//Confidence: very high
Yi 8,98 ---//Confidence: medium
Miao 8,96 ---//Confidence: medium
Tujia 8,4 ---//Confidence: medium
Han-North 8,28 ---//Confidence: medium
Japanese 7,68 ---//Confidence: very high
Naga 7,6 ---//Confidence: very low
Han 7,32 ---//Confidence: very high
Dai 6,88 ---//Confidence: medium
Tu 5,88 ---//Confidence: low
Ethiopian 5,45 ---//Confidence: high
Cambodian 5,07 ---//Confidence: medium
Karitiana 4,26 ---//Confidence: medium
Melanesian 2,55 ---//Confidence: low
Papuan 2,52 ---//Confidence: high
BiakaPygmy 1,68 ---//Confidence: very low
Yoruba 0,39 ---//Confidence: low

Shaikorth
07-31-2016, 08:03 AM
You mean these?



Yeah, that's the IBD. You well might have a Vepsian ancestor but I'm not sure how distant, at least some generations away. Vepsians are bottlenecked so an actual Vepsian would share over 150 with Vepsians while an Ukrainian might get 50-60. Vepsians also have a lot more IBD sharing with Saamis relative to Volga-Ural like Chuvash.

Ukrainian who Srkz tested
Belarusian 71,69
Ukrainian-East 69,82
Balt 66,6
Ukrainian-West 65,23
Polish 65,03
Karelian 63,66
Russian-South 62,23
Estonian 61,93
Russian-West 61,37
Russian-North 60,65
Komi 56,98
Croatian 56,33
German-Austrian 56,03
Swedish 54,84
Veps 54,25
Tatar_Lithuanian 53,75
Hungarian 53,24
Norwegian 52,94
Erzya 51
Chuvash 50,87
Finnish 50,71
Moksha 50,59
Bulgarian 50,36
French 49,13
Basque 47,67
Tatar-Kazan 46,93
British 46,04
Romanian 45,05
Italian 44,07
Udmurt 44,04
Tatar-Crimean 43,67
Greek 43,36
Sardinian 42,78
Balkarian 42,08
Saami 41,59

Actual vepsian:

Veps 190,31 ---//Confidence: medium
Karelian 113,65 ---//Confidence: high
Saami 70,12 ---//Confidence: high
Finnish 69,44 ---//Confidence: very low
Russian-North 62,23 ---//Confidence: very high
Komi 61,58 ---//Confidence: high
Estonian 61,33 ---//Confidence: high
Russian-West 58,83 ---//Confidence: medium
Belarusian 55,92 ---//Confidence: high
Balt 53,04 ---//Confidence: high
Erzya 52,08 ---//Confidence: medium
Polish 49,72 ---//Confidence: high
Norwegian 49,52 ---//Confidence: high
Swedish 48,53 ---//Confidence: high
Tatar-Kazan 48,02 ---//Confidence: high
Ukrainian-East-and-Center 47,8 ---//Confidence: medium
Ukrainian-West-and-Center 47,39 ---//Confidence: medium
Tatar_Lithuanian 46,55 ---//Confidence: very low
Mari 46,53 ---//Confidence: high
Russian-South 45,48 ---//Confidence: very high
Chuvash 44,46 ---//Confidence: high

Did you ask for the IBS as well?

Bes
07-31-2016, 08:08 AM
Yeah, that's the IBD. You well might have a Vepsian ancestor but I'm not sure how distant, at least some generations away. Vepsians are bottlenecked so an actual Vepsian would share over 150 with Vepsians while an Ukrainian might get 50-60. Vepsians also have a lot more IBD sharing with Saamis relative to Volga-Ural like Chuvash.

Ukrainian who Srkz tested
Belarusian 71,69
Ukrainian-East 69,82
Balt 66,6
Ukrainian-West 65,23
Polish 65,03
Karelian 63,66
Russian-South 62,23
Estonian 61,93
Russian-West 61,37
Russian-North 60,65
Komi 56,98
Croatian 56,33
German-Austrian 56,03
Swedish 54,84
Veps 54,25
Tatar_Lithuanian 53,75
Hungarian 53,24
Norwegian 52,94
Erzya 51
Chuvash 50,87
Finnish 50,71
Moksha 50,59
Bulgarian 50,36
French 49,13
Basque 47,67
Tatar-Kazan 46,93
British 46,04
Romanian 45,05
Italian 44,07
Udmurt 44,04
Tatar-Crimean 43,67
Greek 43,36
Sardinian 42,78
Balkarian 42,08
Saami 41,59

Actual vepsian:

Veps 190,31 ---//Confidence: medium
Karelian 113,65 ---//Confidence: high
Saami 70,12 ---//Confidence: high
Finnish 69,44 ---//Confidence: very low
Russian-North 62,23 ---//Confidence: very high
Komi 61,58 ---//Confidence: high
Estonian 61,33 ---//Confidence: high
Russian-West 58,83 ---//Confidence: medium
Belarusian 55,92 ---//Confidence: high
Balt 53,04 ---//Confidence: high
Erzya 52,08 ---//Confidence: medium
Polish 49,72 ---//Confidence: high
Norwegian 49,52 ---//Confidence: high
Swedish 48,53 ---//Confidence: high
Tatar-Kazan 48,02 ---//Confidence: high
Ukrainian-East-and-Center 47,8 ---//Confidence: medium
Ukrainian-West-and-Center 47,39 ---//Confidence: medium
Tatar_Lithuanian 46,55 ---//Confidence: very low
Mari 46,53 ---//Confidence: high
Russian-South 45,48 ---//Confidence: very high
Chuvash 44,46 ---//Confidence: high

Did you ask for the IBS as well?

Yeah I asked for them but he said he does not do them. He himself explained that I'm a good example of a Northern Russian

aarnisotka
08-01-2016, 01:41 PM
Bes is a Volgaic Finn and some Turkic ancestry. I never understood why certain Finns and Estonians are distancing themselves from other Finnic and Ugric people.

You have misunderstandings. Volgaic Finns are just a pawn in a game where we are distancing ourselves from Slavs.

olive picker
08-01-2016, 01:45 PM
Why do Tatars get Balkan? Interesting y-dna too ;)

Volat
08-01-2016, 01:55 PM
You have misunderstandings. Volgaic Finns are just a pawn in a game where we are distancing ourselves from Slavs.

I don't understand the phrase 'pawn in a game' in reference to Volgaic Finns. Aren't you proud of your culture and heritage thinking you are 'pawn in a game'?:)

aarnisotka
08-01-2016, 02:30 PM
I don't understand the phrase 'pawn in a game' in reference to Volgaic Finns. Aren't you proud of your culture and heritage thinking you are 'pawn in a game'?:)

Indeed, you do not understand-

Volat
08-01-2016, 02:42 PM
Indeed, you do not understand-

Enlighten me. :)

aarnisotka
08-01-2016, 02:46 PM
I'm done with psychology.

Volat
08-01-2016, 02:47 PM
Do Volgaic Finns feel as 'pawns in a game'? If I was a representative of the smallest ethnicity I would still perceive culture and origins of my people the greatest. :)

Volat
08-01-2016, 02:48 PM
I'm done with psychology.

Done with 'psychology'? Okay. :)

aarnisotka
08-01-2016, 03:26 PM
Do Volgaic Finns feel as 'pawns in a game'? If I was a representative of the smallest ethnicity I would still perceive culture and origins of my people the greatest. :)

In which moment did you become a spokeperson for the ethnic preservation of small peoples? As far as I've seen one of your firstmost agenda in anthrofora is to deny the ethnic identity of Estonians - who are just that. It is obvious you "care" about Finnic or Finno-Ugric "nationalism" only when it suits your ideas, so just roll off willya.

Bes
08-01-2016, 03:40 PM
Why do Tatars get Balkan? Interesting y-dna too ;)

Eyy buddy! Lol you still have not convinced me that my grandfather was an Albanian and never will. It's very improbable that this is true. Y-DNA has very little to do with ethnicity/race but rather a tool to map my earliest male ancestors who were probably from the Balkan region true, but not Albanian :) The guy who did my IBD said this

"К чему я клоню - человек, у которого 1/4 генома с Кавказа или Балкан, не должен быть таким выраженным северянином. Варианты объяснений могу предложить такие - 1) крымские татары совсем не такие южане, как я представлял (либо же они, как сложившийся не так давно из разнородных компонентов этнос, бывают очень различны) 2) Ваш дедушка не 100% крымский татарин, а допустим, наполовину 3) Ваш дедушка не крымский татарин (например, подошли бы татары-мишари)."

For you google translate))

What I'm getting at - the person who has 1/4 of the genome from the Caucasus or the Balkans, should not be so pronounced northerner. explanation of options can offer are - 1) the Crimean Tatars are not such Southerners as I imagined (or else they are formed not so long ago of the heterogeneous components ethnicity, are very different) 2) What is your grandfather is not 100% Crimean Tatar, and say, half 3) Your grandfather is not Crimean Tatar ( but rather for example, a Mishari Tatar would fit better)

Volat
08-01-2016, 03:43 PM
In which moment did you become a spokeperson for the ethnic preservation of small peoples? As far as I've seen one of your firstmost agenda in anthrofora is to deny the ethnic identity of Estonians - who are just that. It is obvious you "care" about Finnic or Finno-Ugric "nationalism" only when it suits your ideas, so just roll off willya.

I wasn't speaking on behalf of any small ethnicity. I was speaking on behalf of myself if I was a representative of a small ethnicity. :)

Bes
08-01-2016, 03:46 PM
In which moment did you become a spokeperson for the ethnic preservation of small peoples? As far as I've seen one of your firstmost agenda in anthrofora is to deny the ethnic identity of Estonians - who are just that. It is obvious you "care" about Finnic or Finno-Ugric "nationalism" only when it suits your ideas, so just roll off willya.

Chill out buddy. Volat seems like a fine user.

aarnisotka
08-01-2016, 03:49 PM
I wasn't speaking on behalf of any small ethnicity. I was speaking on behalf of myself if I was a representative of a small ethnicity. :)

As a representative of a small ethinicity living in a hostile world filled with Slavs, I will do my all to protect my people. If my calculations tell me that the best way to succeed in this is to cut all ties to people of the Volga I will bloody well do it. Have I? That is another question.

Bes
08-01-2016, 04:24 PM
Yeah, that's the IBD. You well might have a Vepsian ancestor but I'm not sure how distant, at least some generations away. Vepsians are bottlenecked so an actual Vepsian would share over 150 with Vepsians while an Ukrainian might get 50-60. Vepsians also have a lot more IBD sharing with Saamis relative to Volga-Ural like Chuvash.

So in the end it is as I thought not Veps but rather North-Russian with Turkic influence. (Finno-Turkic)

Shaikorth
08-01-2016, 04:31 PM
So in the end it is as I thought not Veps but rather North-Russian with Turkic influence. (Finno-Turkic)

To be more exhaustive, Slavo-Finno-Permic/Volgaic-Turkic.

Bes
08-01-2016, 04:32 PM
To be more exhaustive, Slavo-Finno-Permic/Volgaic-Turkic.

Lol walking Eurasia! XD

Shaikorth
08-01-2016, 04:36 PM
Lol walking Eurasia! XD

Three language families is IMO a bit too few for that, but if you find something like a distant Jewish relative you could add Semitic to the list etc.

sciencediver
08-01-2016, 04:39 PM
I don't know a lot about Tatars, but given your Finnic admixture you seem to be North Siberian Tatar. I suppose a Crimean or a Volga Tatar would get more East Asian and less Finnish.

Just my two cents.

Shaikorth
08-01-2016, 04:44 PM
I don't know a lot about Tatars, but given your Finnic admixture you seem to be North Siberian Tatar. I suppose a Crimean or a Volga Tatar would get more East Asian and less Finnish.

Just my two cents.

Siberian tatars are more eastern than either Volga or Crimean Tatars, Bes is less because of his Russian ancestry.

Srkz's results for a Siberian tatar
https://verenich.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/tatar-siberianibd.png

Volat
08-01-2016, 04:47 PM
As a representative of a small ethinicity living in a hostile world filled with Slavs, I will do my all to protect my people. If my calculations tell me that the best way to succeed in this is to cut all ties to people of the Volga I will bloody well do it. Have I? That is another question.

What's your world filled with the Slavs that you have to protect?


----


Let me tell you Slavs became numerous by assimilating many peoples in their culture. If you cut ties with people related to you because of their association with the Slavs, then in fifty years there will another group of people related to you that will associate themselves with the Slavs. This will go on until you disappear. That's how Slavs, Germanic, French, English, Spaniards, Italians became numerous in Europe.

sciencediver
08-01-2016, 04:52 PM
Siberian tatars are more eastern than either Volga or Crimean Tatars, Bes is less because of his Russian ancestry.

Srkz's results for a Siberian tatar
https://verenich.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/tatar-siberianibd.png

Fair enough but I was referring to his 23andme ancestry. For some reason he gets a lot of Finnish .

Shaikorth
08-01-2016, 05:00 PM
Fair enough but I was referring to his 23andme ancestry. For some reason he gets a lot of Finnish .

Yeah, but that's expected since his Russian ancestry is from the North and based on IBD includes a Vepsian somewhere. I've never seen a Siberian tatar 23andMe result but it should be something like Yakut/Mongolian + Eastern Euro stuff based on the IBD results.

This sheet for Eurogenes K36 has loads of different Tatar group averages.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5egbkjevo9l0g20/ClustersK36.xlsx

Bes
08-02-2016, 03:24 AM
Fair enough but I was referring to his 23andme ancestry. For some reason he gets a lot of Finnish .

To be fair Volga Tatars and Chuvash mixed with native Finnic people also.

firemonkey
08-29-2016, 05:35 AM
How do you get in contact with SRKZ or does he only do IBD analysis for those with Finnish/Russian etc ancestry. Unfortunately even translating the site via google chrome I couldn't get to the relevant contact information.

Bes
08-31-2016, 03:23 PM
How do you get in contact with SRKZ or does he only do IBD analysis for those with Finnish/Russian etc ancestry. Unfortunately even translating the site via google chrome I couldn't get to the relevant contact information.

I recommend ethnocalc@mail.ru send in your zip file from your test. I'm not sure if he will accept or does english.

Captain Nordic
08-31-2016, 03:56 PM
I recommend ethnocalc@mail.ru send in your zip file from your test. I'm not sure if he will accept or does english.

You're back :D

firemonkey
08-31-2016, 06:38 PM
I recommend ethnocalc@mail.ru send in your zip file from your test. I'm not sure if he will accept or does english.

Thanks. I have sent in the hope that he will do. Nothing ventured nothing gained?

firemonkey
09-02-2016, 01:44 AM
No reply as yet even if to say he won't do non Russian IBD. It's in my normally pessimistic mind to think he won't, but just over a day is too early maybe to be certain of that.

Bes
09-03-2016, 03:23 AM
No reply as yet even if to say he won't do non Russian IBD. It's in my normally pessimistic mind to think he won't, but just over a day is too early maybe to be certain of that.

Wait at least a week.