PDA

View Full Version : Map of Slavic y-dna in Greece, compiled by user Passa



Pages : 1 [2]

Tomenable
12-05-2016, 02:28 PM
The idea of Slavic commonality was not know until French Revolution. For example medieval Czechs were only aware of language association with Poland. (...)

Already in the Middle Ages Czechs were aware of commonality of blood and kinship (not just language):

"Proclamation by Czech King Premysl Otakar II to Polish Princes (year 1278)":

http://www.kielakowie.pl/mediawiki/index.php?title=18_-_Podzia%B3y_i_zjednoczenie_pa%F1stwa_polskiego#Pro klamacja_kr.C3.B3la_Czech_Przemys.C5.82a_Otokara_I I_do_ksi.C4.85.C5.BC.C4.85t_polskich_.28rok_1278.2 9

Sorry, I'm not going to translate this to English, but it says about Polish-Czech similarities and it mentions "blood" and "kinship" and "neighbourhood" between Poles and Czechs, not just language.

Quote:

"Badając dokładnie i przezornie przeróżne rodzaje ludów, przekonaliśmy się, że szczególnie nam podobny jest naród rozleglej Polski, a wśród wszystkich prowincyj świata najbardziej jest również pokrewny przez posiadanie pewnego podobieństwa do tych krajów, któremi rządzimy za sprawą Boga. Polska bowiem w współbrzmienności języka zgadza się z nami, z ziemiami naszemi łączy się najbliższem sąsiedztwem położenia, nie oddzielona od nas żadną przestrzenią, również i jednością krwi łączy się z nami i wiąże węzłem pokrewieństwa, a wreszcie tak wielka zachodzi między Polską a naszym majestatem wspólność podobieństwa, iż szczyci się pochodzeniem swych książąt z tego samego zdroju, co i my. W obliczu więc takiego wyniku rozważań, postępując za słusznemi wskazówkami prawdy dochodzimy do takiego postanowienia, przywiedzieni doń naturalnemi pobudkami, by dostojnych książąt Polski, baronów, rycerzy i cały lud objąć jak najściślejsza miłością i życzliwością, by cieszyć się ich radościami, a smucić ich smutkami, by pragnąc być im ochroną, by życzyć im ciągłego potęgowania się ich chwały i sławy. Również z tego rozważania budzi się w nas ufność, podnosi się i rośnie wiara niezłomna, że was (Polaków) w przypadku koniecznym zawezwać możemy bez wahania byście nam pospieszyli ochoczo z poparciem i pomocą.
Gdy zatem Rudolf, król rzymski, nie poprzestając na tem, że zabrał nam nasze ziemie, płonie nadal żądzą szkodzenia nam,... pragniemy zapobiec potęgą ramienia naszego haniebnym napadom i uciskom i postanowiliśmy jak najusilniej prosić Wasze Miłości, byście raczyli nam przybyć na pomoc z dzielnym orszakiem uzbrojonego rycerstwa, jak to przystoi Waszej Dostojności, tak byście stawili się w naszem mieście Opawie w nadchodzące obecnie Zielone Świątki, gdzie w myśl naszego zarządzenia uroczyste nasze poselstwo przyjmie godnie Was i waszych w podanym terminie i ze czcią przyprowadzi przed oblicze naszego majestatu. Lecz do dostarczenia nam pomocy tego rodzaju powinny was nakłaniać nie tylko względy wyżej przytoczone, lecz również skuteczny argument zawarty w innej przyczynie, mianowicie, że jeżeli niestety wypadnie nam ulec gwałtowi pomienionego króla (Rudolfa), wtedy nienasycone pożądania Niemców tem swobodniej będą się rozprzestrzeniać i tem łatwiej niecne ręce wyciągną oni aż po (polską) prowincję w swej występnej zachłanności. Jesteśmy bowiem dla was i dla waszych ziem jak gdyby silną strażnicą, chroniącą wasze bezpieczeństwo, która jeżeli przypadkiem nie zdoła się oprzeć - czego oby Bóg nie dopuścili - srożącej się gniewnie potędze, możecie zrozumieć, że wam i waszym poddanym zagroziłyby w takim razie wielkie niebezpieczeństwa, ponieważ zuchwałej żądzy posiadania nie zadowoliłoby podbicie tylko nas samych, lecz i wasze rozdrapała-by dobra i na was-by się srożyła nieznośnym uciskiem. O jakże okropnemi prześladowaniami uciśniony zostałby wówczas wasz liczny a Niemcom nienawistny naród, o jakże srogiej niewoli jarzmu poddana zostałaby wolna Polska. O jakżeby ta klęska roztrzaskała spoistość waszego narodu! Zapewne wystarczy zwrócić wam na to uwagę, a łatwiej wy możecie się w tem zorjentować, niż my możemy to przedstawić. Dlatego pospieszajcie nam na pomoc, pospieszajcie i dodajcie nam skutecznie sił i obrony do powstrzymania pożaru, jakim nam grozi odległy na razie płomień, bo zważcie, że rozumniej jest zapobiegać w zarodku, niż gdy żar ognia zbytnio się wzmoże i nie dopuści już oporu! I zważcie też, że ten kto broni sąsiedniego domu przed pożarem, ochrania swoją własną siedzibę. Ponadto świeżo dowiedzieliśmy się, że pomieniony król Rudolf swojemi kusicielskimi poselstwami, usiłował was nie tylko oderwać od przyjaźni z nami i podmówić do nieudzielania nam pomocy, lecz także próbował między nami zasiać kąkol okrutnej niezgody. Z tego powodu, gdy - jeśli chcecie to dobrze zrozumieć - nie może to wyjść ku waszemu pożytkowi, lecz raczej na szkodę, upraszamy was gorąco, byście nie nakłonili chętnych uszu jego namowom, lecz raczej na pomoc nam, którzy jesteśmy z tego samego co i wy szczepu, uzbrójcie się ochoczo i potężnie, na to zwracając baczną uwagę, że popierając swojego popieracie samych siebie, a nadto, że jeżeli nam udzielicie poparcia pomocnej prawicy, to my przeciw waszym przeciwnikom wyprowadzimy całą potęgę naszych sił i staniemy potężnie przy waszym boku, czy to owi przeciwnicy wasi będą chrześcijanami, czy tez poganami. Ponadto cokolwiek wam w tych sprawach w naszem imieniu oświadczy (nasze poselstwo), wierzcie mu, dalecy, od wszelkiej wątpliwości."

Source: Archiwum Kom. Hist., volume IV. pages 11-13.

You can find it also in:

B. Nowacki, "Przemysł II odnowiciel korony polskiej (1257 - 1296)", Cracow 2013, pp. 84-85.

Tomenable
12-05-2016, 02:39 PM
Czechs share more genetic types with Celtics and Germanic people than Slavs

In "Eurogenes K15" Czechs plot in the middle between Poles, Eastern Germans, Hungarians and Austrians, which is in agreement with their geographical location. East Germans, Austrians and Hungarians have a lot of Slavic blood themselves (because they assimilated Slavs), so obviously if Czechs are more Slavic than East Germans then it means that they share a lot of "genetic types" (whatever that is?) with other Slavs.

If Bronze and Iron Age Scandinavans are a proxy for Proto-Germanic, then the most Germanic populations today are Northern Dutch and Scandinavians, because only they overlap with Ancient Scandinavians. The English are mostly of Non-Germanic "genetic types", as recent studies have shown. East Germans plot close to Czechs and Western Poles - they plot far away from ancient Celtic and Germanic samples. By ancient Celtic samples I mean Central European Unetice culture samples, Iron Age British Hinxton-4 and Irish Rathlin-1.

Unetice samples from what is now Czech Republic are genetically different than modern Czechs, which means that there must have been significant immigrations to this area after the Bronze Age.

==============

Later I will post average scores of Unetice samples and of Czechs in Eurogenes K15.

Tomenable
12-05-2016, 03:25 PM
Eurogenes K15 results:

Average for 32 modern Poles:

NSea / Atlantic / Baltic / EastEuro / WMed / WAsian / EMed / RSea / SAsian / SEAsian / Siberian / Amerind / Oceanian / NEAfrican / SSA

22,82 / 18,03 / 29,29 / 18,55 / 5,18 / 3,41 / 0,94 / 0,28 / 0,47 / 0,08 / 0,04 / 0,27 / 0,26 / 0,20 / 0,17

Average for 15 modern Czechs:

NSea / Atlantic / Baltic / EastEuro / WMed / WAsian / EMed / RSea / SAsian / SEAsian / Siberian / Amerind / Oceanian / NEAfrican / SSA

24,00 / 20,68 / 22,68 / 14,02 / 8,17 / 4,53 / 3,89 / 0,74 / 0,49 / 0,01 / 0,05 / 0,22 / 0,15 / 0,15 / 0,10

Average for 11 Unetice samples:

NSea / Atlantic / Baltic / EastEuro / WMed / WAsian / EMed / RSea / SAsian / SEAsian / Siberian / Amerind / Oceanian / NEAfrican / SSA

34,34 / 27,81 / 15,56 / 11,92 / 5,67 / 4,36 / 0,00 / 0,00 / 0,00 / 0,00 / 0,00 / 0,00 / 0,01 / 0,00 / 0,33

This 11 includes 2 from Czech Republic, 5 from Germany and 4 from Poland.

==========

Changes between averages for ancient samples from Bronze Age Unetice culture and modern Czechs:

"North Sea" minus 10,34
"Atlantic" minus 7,13

"Baltic" plus 7,12
"East Euro" plus 2,1

"East Med" plus 3,89
"West Med" plus 2,5
"Red Sea" plus 0,74
"West Asian" plus 0,17

Etc., etc.

These changes show that modern Czechs are significantly Eastern-shifted compared to Unetice.

They're also Southern-shifted compared to Unetice (more Mediterranean, West Asian, Red Sea).

Illyro-Vlach
12-05-2016, 09:16 PM
The idea of Slavic commonality was not know until French Revolution. For example medieval Czechs were only aware of language association with Poland. The language association between Russia and Czech was not know until 1800, when Suvorov troops were stationed in Bohemia during the War of the Second Coaltion. So not until modern era, Slavs were often not aware of shared common ancestry, and the idea of Slavichood in the 19th century was condemned to failure. Relationship among Slavic nations varies from deep hatred, to respect, to admiration, to total indifference.

I present to you the Croatian Dominican Priest Vinko Pribojevic (died AD 1532) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinko_Pribojevi%C4%87) from the Adriatic Island of Hvar:


Vinko Pribojević (Latin: Vincentius Priboevius mid-15th century - after 1532) was a Venetian Slavic historian and ideologue, best known as one of the founders of the early pan-Slavic ideology.

His most famous work is the speech De origine successibusque Slavorum (On the Origin and Glory of the Slavs), where he exalts Illyrians and Slavs as the ancestors of the Dalmatian Slavs.[citation needed] His speech, most probably made in Venice in 1525, left a deep impression on the Venetians, who published it in Latin and Italian several times over the following years. Its passionate glorification of Slavs (in which the book includes Alexander the Great and Aristotle, Diocletian and Jerome) and its strong pathos played a major role in the birth of the pan-Slavic ideology. It was the first time that such ideology was formulated as a program, which was further developed by Mavro Orbini and Juraj Križanić.

He was followed by Juraj Križanić (c. 1618 – 12 September 1683) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juraj_Kri%C5%BEani%C4%87):


Juraj Križanić (c. 1618 – 12 September 1683), also known as Yuriy Krizhanich or Iurii Krizhanich (Russian: Крижанич, Юрий), was a Croatian Catholic missionary who is often regarded as the earliest recorded pan-Slavist.[1][2]

Ideas and theories

Križanić was one of the earliest proponents of Pan-Slavism. The language he created and used in his writing (his "Common Slavonic Language") was a mixture of several Slavic languages and was devised to serve as a symbol of and even to promote Slavic unity. He wanted to unite the Slavic nations under the Russian Tsar and unite Catholic and Orthodox against the German Protestants and Turkish Muslims.[5]

A key component of Križanić's theories concerning necessary reforms for the Russian state were his "Five Principles of Power." His five principles were: Full autocracy (essentially absolute monarchy), closed borders, compulsory labor or a ban on idleness, government monopoly of foreign trade, and ideological conformity. Križanić argued that Russia would be strengthened if immigration were tightly restricted and if native Russians were prohibited from leaving the country without justification.[6] The autocrat should use his power to eliminate bad customs, modernize the country and give the nobles and clergy privileges on the model to the Western Ständestaat.[5]

His works, which also include writings on music and economics, were re-discovered and printed in the mid-19th century.

Krizanic went on to live in Russia for several years as well, becoming a court favourite of the Tsar.

Kurvar55
09-17-2017, 05:12 PM
Hi! New member here interested in Balkans! Also what makes it hard for real Greek DNA to study is large transfer of of Anatolian Greeks to mainland Greek. I think Greeks of Albania should be the best baseline since they were not included in the transfer.

Sikeliot
09-17-2017, 06:01 PM
Hi! New member here interested in Balkans! Also what makes it hard for real Greek DNA to study is large transfer of of Anatolian Greeks to mainland Greek. I think Greeks of Albania should be the best baseline since they were not included in the transfer.

Anatolian and Pontic Greeks only migrated to Thrace/Macedonia and to some of the islands along the coast of Turkey. And even with this Slavic haplogroups are common in the north.

JerryS.
11-01-2017, 01:34 AM
I'm surprised at the high amount of Slavic DNA in Crete.

Sikeliot
11-01-2017, 04:01 AM
I'm surprised at the high amount of Slavic DNA in Crete.

I would think it has to reflect migration from the mainland.

griegoteo
11-27-2017, 04:54 AM
Incredible thread - appreciate the various opinions and insights. I always considered Greek DNA to be unique from other Balkan DNA, but clearly that's not the case. The DNA I inherited from my 100% Greek (Peloponnesos) father and maternal grandfather comes out different in every interpretation. Italian, "NE European", Sephardic, Ashkenazi, Asia Minor, West Asia, Horn of Africa to name a few.

eastara
11-27-2017, 11:52 AM
Anatolian and Pontic Greeks only migrated to Thrace/Macedonia and to some of the islands along the coast of Turkey. And even with this Slavic haplogroups are common in the north.

This is not correct - Anatolian and Pontic Greeks were settled all over Greece and some of the islands. Highest percent was in Macedonia and Thrace, because a huge proportion of the population there - Slavs and Ottoman Turks also left around 1912-1922.

20003

Dibran
11-27-2017, 03:23 PM
Incredible thread - appreciate the various opinions and insights. I always considered Greek DNA to be unique from other Balkan DNA, but clearly that's not the case. The DNA I inherited from my 100% Greek (Peloponnesos) father and maternal grandfather comes out different in every interpretation. Italian, "NE European", Sephardic, Ashkenazi, Asia Minor, West Asia, Horn of Africa to name a few.

What are the frequencies within these components? I think thats what it depends on. Generally, Albanians, Greeks, Macedonians, and to a lesser extent, Bulgarians, seem to cluster with one another. Despite linguistic differences. I think this is due to Byzantium that we have such shared composition. In references with no Albanian, I score more eastern shifted Tuscan, Greek_Thessaly, Abruzzo, Lazio etc.

Dibran
11-27-2017, 03:30 PM
This is not correct - Anatolian and Pontic Greeks were settled all over Greece and some of the islands. Highest percent was in Macedonia and Thrace, because a huge proportion of the population there - Slavs and Ottoman Turks also left around 1912-1922.

20003

If they left, how do you explain the considerable Slavic Y-DNA patterns? I can see your position making sense if the majority of R1a/I2a Greeks are from a founder affect. It could explain why the lineage grew from assimilated Slavs while the rest were the ones that left. Thats the only scenario that makes sense. Otherwise, if a founder affect is not responsible for the considerable R1a/I2a, then it seems that almost all R1a/I2a in Greeks is from assimilated great migration Slavs. Maybe the ones that left were those who ethnically remained Slavic.

For example, I am suspected to belong to R1a-M458. No call, but predicted. They assume I am YP515. I have no matches other than an Albanian from Gostivar, Macedonia, with a TMRCA of 1000 years. They are also convinced it formed a founder effect, and may be considered a Balkan specific R1a clade resulting from Great Migration Slavs, and or, in lesser likelihood Goths. Currently testing with Full Genomes to confirm these predictions.

eastara
11-28-2017, 10:09 AM
Well, only some of the Bulgarians and Macedonians left Greece during that period. Some stayed and due to the aggressive Greek assimilation policies are practically Greek now. Some of the Slav introgression into Greeks goes back to Byzantine times, but some is quite recent. The so called Thracian Greeks(at least those who lived inland, excluding the bigger cities), are maybe direct descendants of Slavs, who settled there only after 16th centuries and Hellenised even later during Ottoman times. Most of them also moved to other parts of Greece during the 20th c. population exchanges.

Gravetto-Danubian
11-28-2017, 10:18 AM
If they left, how do you explain the considerable Slavic Y-DNA patterns? I can see your position making sense if the majority of R1a/I2a Greeks are from a founder affect. It could explain why the lineage grew from assimilated Slavs while the rest were the ones that left. Thats the only scenario that makes sense. Otherwise, if a founder affect is not responsible for the considerable R1a/I2a, then it seems that almost all R1a/I2a in Greeks is from assimilated great migration Slavs. Maybe the ones that left were those who ethnically remained Slavic.

For example, I am suspected to belong to R1a-M458. No call, but predicted. They assume I am YP515. I have no matches other than an Albanian from Gostivar, Macedonia, with a TMRCA of 1000 years. They are also convinced it formed a founder effect, and may be considered a Balkan specific R1a clade resulting from Great Migration Slavs, and or, in lesser likelihood Goths. Currently testing with Full Genomes to confirm these predictions.

Why not with bigY ? Id help sponsor your 'cousin' in Gostivar

Dibran
11-28-2017, 11:19 PM
Why not with bigY ? Id help sponsor your 'cousin' in Gostivar

Well, Full Genomes is far superior. And whilst I cant get the direct interface benefit offered by bigY, using the data to upload to Yfull, and giving access to the R1a admins, should help accomplish the same objective. With regards to the individual from Gostivar, he tested with Yseq. the match was noted by Albanian bloodlines and Michal. I have no contact with the individual, but, I imagine if you reach out to the user Trojet, he should be able to reach out to this tester to see if he'd like sponsorship. I would contribute along with you if thats the case. But, given the TMRCA is 1000 years, what other information can be extracted from a match getting the same exact test? I have more general understandings regarding autosomal genetics, so I am not to privy to the process of haplogroups and how it all connects(when having various matches do the test). I assume its a sort of puzzle piece, that makes clear, leaving less room for assumption?

I contacted another Albanian that I match autosomally(which may not be indicative), who happens to be R-M417(theres a chance its not even a match). But, given stories of a Koci clan in Eprius, this southern Albanian could likely be part of a wider R1a tree. I emailed him asking if I could pay for a basic y37 on ftdna to see if there is a match, but I received no response yet. Fullgenomes said the results for my Yelite WGS will be available end of December early January. So, I will post results when I get them.

Dibran
11-28-2017, 11:25 PM
Well, only some of the Bulgarians and Macedonians left Greece during that period. Some stayed and due to the aggressive Greek assimilation policies are practically Greek now. Some of the Slav introgression into Greeks goes back to Byzantine times, but some is quite recent. The so called Thracian Greeks(at least those who lived inland, excluding the bigger cities), are maybe direct descendants of Slavs, who settled there only after 16th centuries and Hellenised even later during Ottoman times. Most of them also moved to other parts of Greece during the 20th c. population exchanges.

Well, we're basically on the same page. I guess we just misunderstood time periods. I guess I thought you were saying no Slavs remained in Greece and were all removed. Which is why I had mentioned that if that were the case, Slavic Y-DNA wouldnt have the impact it does. Granted, these are still Greeks. I merely mean within the context of their forefathers arrival. I imagine most Slavic YDNA in Greece and maybe Albania, was resultant of Byzantine assimilationS. I have read in some documents that not all the Slavic groups were given to conflict. Some were peaceful, farmed, integrated, assimilated, etc. The Ydna patterns in Greece could very well be from those who were absorbed. With regards to Slavs from the ottoman period forward, I don't know much with regards to where they were in Greece, or settlements/displacement.

Kanenas
02-10-2018, 08:27 AM
If they left, how do you explain the considerable Slavic Y-DNA patterns? I can see your position making sense if the majority of R1a/I2a Greeks are from a founder affect. It could explain why the lineage grew from assimilated Slavs while the rest were the ones that left. Thats the only scenario that makes sense. Otherwise, if a founder affect is not responsible for the considerable R1a/I2a, then it seems that almost all R1a/I2a in Greeks is from assimilated great migration Slavs. Maybe the ones that left were those who ethnically remained Slavic.

For example, I am suspected to belong to R1a-M458. No call, but predicted. They assume I am YP515. I have no matches other than an Albanian from Gostivar, Macedonia, with a TMRCA of 1000 years. They are also convinced it formed a founder effect, and may be considered a Balkan specific R1a clade resulting from Great Migration Slavs, and or, in lesser likelihood Goths. Currently testing with Full Genomes to confirm these predictions.

I have said elsewhere that in ancient Macedonia (which mostly corresponds to 'Aegean' Macedonia) there were Macedonians proper, many Thracians, some Epirotes, some Illyrians and Ionians in coastal regions. That was true when Strabo lived ( 64 or 63 BC – c. AD 24). And there are other movements later that make the situation complex.

And there are no good studies. The sampling methods are important. Concerning your case what they say is probably reasonable but not necessarily correct. [When people make similar conclusions, I want them to state all the premises they consider to be true, which is something that most don't do]

---
Not all Slavic-speakers left but without the exchanges the Muslims who would probably identify as Turks by now would have been the plurality in Macedonia.

Dibran
02-12-2018, 02:55 PM
I have said elsewhere that in ancient Macedonia (which mostly corresponds to 'Aegean' Macedonia) there were Macedonians proper, many Thracians, some Epirotes, some Illyrians and Ionians in coastal regions. That was true when Strabo lived ( 64 or 63 BC – c. AD 24). And there are other movements later that make the situation complex.

And there are no good studies. The sampling methods are important. Concerning your case what they say is probably reasonable but not necessarily correct. [When people make similar conclusions, I want them to state all the premises they consider to be true, which is something that most don't do]

---
Not all Slavic-speakers left but without the exchanges the Muslims who would probably identify as Turks by now would have been the plurality in Macedonia.

Sorry for the delayed response. Anthro never sends me the damn notification, lol. So a little update from my recent post. I finally got my Y elite results and uploaded to Yfull. I am confirmed R1a-M458-L1029*, negative downstream, with 25(24 stable) unique SNPs. My "close" matches are all with a TMRCA of 2000ypb or further. It appears the Albanian from Gostivar, Macedonia is still my closest match with a TMRCA of 1000ypb between us. I suspect it was from the early slavic tribes that were assimilated into byzantium. I also noticed a autosomal match I have, has people with my surname in his family tree. These are Orthodox folk with my name is Berat/Korce Southern Albania and Epirus region. There were a medieval Koci clan from Epirus who were said to be Arvanites of mixed Albanian Greek and Vlach origin. One branch of that clan migrated to western Macedonia is the 15-1600s, right on the border where my region of origin in Albania is located. Of which we have record of 300-350 years. Recently Lukasz did an ancestry report for me. All mine and my fathers autosomal population admixture placed us closest to Epirus. I wonder if then, my R1a came with Arvanite Albanian clan from Epirus descended from earlier Slavic tribe. Either exchanged hands from Byzantine to Greek and or Vlach, or directly into Albanian depending where and when(always other factors). The only other candidates other than Slavs would have to be the Ostrogoths. Another possibility is it could have arrived with Varangian, who were hired from Russia and the Balts as well. My village was also settled by German mercenaries in 900AD, which could have brought an East German with the line. Or even Venetians could have brought it with their Venetian Dalmatian troops when they occupied Albania. Most likely would be the Baiounitai that settled around Southern Albania and Northern Greece. It is interesting I am basal L1029 and negative downstream. I likely form my own cluster with my Gostivar match(who sadly doesnt want to test further). I suppose I can test my father or a cousin to build the cluster between us. But, other than Gostivar Albanian match, all my TMRCAs with my extended matches are between 1800-2300ypb per yfull estimates. So roughly 2000TMRCA between me and the rest of my matches. I only have one close STR match which is the L1029 sample from Beijing, China. roughly 100 SNP matches.With closest being a Cagliari sample, and 2 Germans and a Norwegian. They all seem to be L1029*.