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TigerMW
04-17-2013, 03:17 PM
H mtDNA is common across much of Europe.
"Haplogroup H is a human mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroup that likely originated in Southwest Asia[1] 20,000-25,000 YBP." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_H_%28mtDNA%29

A new doctoral dissertation compares mt DNA across Bell Beaker sites.
Ancient DNA studies of human evolution" by Adliver, 2012
http://digital.library.adelaide.edu.au/dspace/bitstream/2440/73014/1/02whole.pdf

Maju has summarized his view.
Critically Adler could research the ancient mtDNA of Bell Beaker and Únětice culture populations from several German sites, adding important information about the genetic pools of the Late Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age. She also goes over previous studies on the same area.

The new data (table 2) can be synthesized as follows:

Bell Beaker:
Quedlinburg XII: 3 H-CRS (H1?), 1 J
Rothenschirmbach: 2 H3, 1 H5
Alberstedt: 1 H-CRS (H1?)
Total (simplified): 7 H, 1 J
Únětice:
Quedlinburg VIII: 1 U5a1a, 1 U2, 1 U*, 1 H7a, 1 T1
Quedlinburg XII: 1 U5a1a
Quedlinburg XIV: 1 T2
Esperstedt: 2 I*, 1 I1, 1 U5a1, 1 U5b, 1 T2b, 1 T2*, 1 W, 1 X
Total (simplified): 4 U5, 3 I, 3 T2, 1 T1, 1 U2, 1 U*, 1 W, 1 X

mtDNA samples, in Europe only the Portuguese Neolithic and Epipaleolithic samples by Chandler 2005 seem to be comparable in any way, suggesting that this most important European matrilineage may have expanded from Iberia in the Chalcolithic (aka Late Neolithic in some Anglosaxon literature) with either Megalithism, Bell Beaker or both.

I personally have two immediate H mtDNA lineages, one from Ireland and one from the Czech Republic. My wife's H mtDNA lineage is from the Greek Mediterranean. I've always been frustrated by the lack of resolution in H subclades and knowledge about those subclades, but it is clearly worthy to examine how R1b and H correlate and see what that leads to.

Bernard
04-17-2013, 04:29 PM
The complete results from Adler thesis are the following:
LBK culture (5450 to 4775 BC): K, J, N1a, N1a, T2, T and J.
Rössen culture (4475 to 4250 BC): H, H, H, X2, K, H5, T2, HV, T2e and N1a.
Corded ware culture (2700 to 2000 BC): H, HV, U5a, U4, K, H, W6, U5a1, U5a, J, X, J and T2.
Bell Beaker culture (2500 to 2050 BC): H, H, J, H, H5, H, H3 and H5.
Unetice culture (2050 to 1800 BC): U5a1a, U2, T1, H7a, U5a1a, U, T2, U5a1a, I, U5a1, W, I1, U5b, X, T2b, T2 and I.

So H was present in Central Europe in the Rössen culture before the Bell Beaker culture. In the Adler thesis H is 88% of mtDNA haplogroups in Bell Beaker samples, but if you take account of all the ancient mtDNA results (Melchior, 2010 and Lee, 2012), we have 16 Bell Beaker samples with the following results:
H: 44%, U: 25%, J: 6%, K: 6%, T: 6%, W: 6% and I: 6%
It is approximatively the same proportion as current europeans.

I think that the conclusions of the Adler thesis are the following:
1) genetic discontinuity between paleolithic and neolithic gene pools following neolithic migrations from Near East
2) genetic discontinuity between neolithic and bronze age gene pools following Bell beaker migrations from Iberia
3) genetic continuity between bronze age and current gene pools

Jean M
04-17-2013, 04:34 PM
Frankly there is no correlation. H is the most common mtDNA haplogroup today all over Europe. R1b is the most common Y-DNA haplogroup in western Europe. So lots of men with Y-DNA R1b will have mtDNA H. But so will many men of other Y-DNA haplogroups. In eastern Europe, where Y-DNA R1a1a predominates, there is no lack of mtDNA H.

As Bernard points out, H was present in Europe before Bell Beaker. More crucially, it was present in the Near Eastern Neolithic (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml). If we discount all the claims of H in early European remains based on nothing more than no differences detected from CRS in HVI, and especially in early, poorly-conducted research with insufficient protection from contamination, it now looks as though H most probably arrived in Europe with the Neolithic. The idea that H1 and H3 spread from Iberia was shot out of the water a while ago.

pconroy
04-17-2013, 04:37 PM
My father is Native Irish and his mtDNA was listed as H5'36, but after a Full mtDNA Genome sequencing, it is now H5k - ancestry from Co Laois for over 1,000 years AFAIK.

My daughter from my French wife is mtDNA H - maternal ancestry from the Champagne district of France

My children from my US wife are mtDNA H13 - maternal ancestry from Sicily - but this haplotype is very rare and out of about 2,000 shares I have, only my wife, children and other female relatives have it.

pconroy
04-17-2013, 04:52 PM
Jean,
Agreed.

On Maju's blog I also commented that:

"Based on the Pala paper T1a1a1 is almost definitely an Indo-European mtDNA marker, and the only one I know of."

The reason is that it is found in Tocharians, Indians, Pakistanis, Iranians, East and West Europeans, Middle Easterners and North Africans, so extremely widely spread, but one of the only mtDNA haplogroups that encompasses all Indo-European speakers that I'm aware of. Also it's estimated TMRCA is only 7,000 yo, so fits nicely into an Indo-European scenario.

Jean M
04-17-2013, 05:46 PM
@ Paul

I'm bemused. Which Pala paper? T1a1a1 has not been found in the Tarim Basin mummies. There are no Tocharian-speakers alive today, so I can't think where else you might be looking. T2a1b1 appears in remains from both Cucuteni-Tripolye and Andronovo. Were you thinking of that?

Lots of mtDNA haplogroups are found in both Europe, the Near East and South Asia. That does not mean that they necessarily arrived 100% with Indo-European speakers. mtDNA J2 [correction - J1], for example, almost certainly arrived in South Asia with early farmers and then again with Indo-European speakers. The Indo-Europeans seem to have absorbed mtDNA from local farmers in SE Europe, as well as carrying the Mesolithic U4 and U5. U2e probably had a fairly local spread before it was dispersed with Indo-European speakers. H5 likewise may have been fairly restricted in Europe until carried far and wide by IE speakers.

newtoboard
04-17-2013, 07:37 PM
What about the distribution of H2, H5a, H6 and H8 being associated with Indo-Europeans? Mtdna W fits with its Eastern European-Central European-Central Asian-South Asian-Iranian-Kurdish distribution.

newtoboard
04-17-2013, 07:40 PM
@ Paul

I'm bemused. Which Pala paper? T1a1a1 has not been found in the Tarim Basin mummies. There are no Tocharian-speakers alive today, so I can't think where else you might be looking. T2a1b1 appears in remains from both Cucuteni-Tripolye and Andronovo. Were you thinking of that?

Lots of mtDNA haplogroups are found in both Europe, the Near East and South Asia. That does not mean that they necessarily arrived 100% with Indo-European speakers. mtDNA J2, for example, almost certainly arrived in South Asia with early farmers and then again with Indo-European speakers. The Indo-Europeans seem to have absorbed mtDNA from local farmers in SE Europe, as well as carrying the Mesolithic U4 and U5. U2e probably had a fairly local spread before it was dispersed with Indo-European speakers. H5 likewise may have been fairly restricted in Europe until carried far and wide by IE speakers.

J2 as far as I know is only typical of the Kalash. Most South Asians with mtdna carry mtdna J1.

Jean M
04-17-2013, 08:05 PM
J2 as far as I know is only typical of the Kalash. Most South Asians with mtdna carry mtdna J1.

Am I getting confused between mtDNA and Y-DNA? Yes I see that I am. [Just found map of Y-DNA J2.]

TigerMW
04-17-2013, 08:23 PM
Frankly there is no correlation. H is the most common mtDNA haplogroup today all over Europe. R1b is the most common Y-DNA haplogroup in western Europe. So lots of men with Y-DNA R1b will have mtDNA H. But so will many men of other Y-DNA haplogroups. In eastern Europe, where Y-DNA R1a1a predominates, there is no lack of mtDNA H.

As Bernard points out, H was present in Europe before Bell Beaker. More crucially, it was present in the Near Eastern Neolithic (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml). If we discount all the claims of H in early European remains based on nothing more than no differences detected from CRS in HVI, and especially in early, poorly-conducted research with insufficient protection from contamination, it now looks as though H most probably arrived in Europe with the Neolithic. The idea that H1 and H3 spread from Iberia was shot out of the water a while ago.

One of the Hungarian project admins just told me that MtDNA Hg H's Near Eastern origin is underpinned by the relative highest frequency/diversity of HV and R0 in Arabia. Are there any diversity maps drilling down into Hg H out there?

Even if mt H was in Iberia before Beaker is there any evidence, H subclade-wise, that it also rode Bell Beaker migrations? It looks like not, but I just want to be sure.

Jean M
04-17-2013, 09:25 PM
H3 is largely limited to Europe and north Africa. Both H1 and H3 have their densest distribution in Iberia. It was initially thought that they were also most diverse there. Yet breaking down H1 itself into subclades revealed that some are barely present in Iberia. H1a and H1b are densest in Eastern Europe. Even more significantly, H1 and H3 have a low diversity in Cantabrian Spain and in particular among the Basques. Instead the highest diversity and allelic richness of H1 and H3 in Europe is found in north-eastern and north-central regions, while the Near East has the greatest overall diversity of H1, and north Africa that for H3.

O García, R Fregel, J M Larruga, V Álvarez, I Yurrebaso, V M Cabrera and A M González, Using mitochondrial DNA to test the hypothesis of a European post-glacial human recolonization from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge (http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v106/n1/abs/hdy201047a.html), Heredity, vol. 106 (2011), pp. 37–45. [Full text free online.]

It might be useful to discuss mtDNA H in the forum for same, or invite GailT to this discussion.

R.Rocca
04-17-2013, 10:39 PM
The spread of R1b across Europe was probably many times more complicated than anything we can hypothesize. While the Bell Beaker Phenomenon could not possibly account for the spread of all of R1b across Europe, I think there is a strong possibility that DF27 was responsible for an out-of-Iberia expansion of the earliest Bell Beakers.

GailT
04-18-2013, 03:54 AM
I think the spread of mtDNA H across Europe was also very complicated, it might have arrived with multiple waves of immigrants from the early Neolithic continuing into the historical period. After Rebekah left, Nelly has taken the lead of the mtDNA H projects, and I'm helping with several H subclades, but it will take a lot of work to summarize the results that we have at FTDNA and in GenBank.

The most interesting thing about mtDNA H is that it appears to be quite young (about 13,000 years per the Behar et al. 2012 study) and it expanded extremely rapidly. It seems that mtDNA H must have been present in farmers in the Near East, although apparently not in the earliest farmers that expanded into Europe. From the Adler dissertation it appears that mtDNA H was present in Corded ware and Unetice cultures. We have nearly 100 different subclades of H, and many additional H lineages that are not yet named. And the slow mutation rate does not give us good time resolution. In fact, we have quite a few people who are just plain H with no extra mutations.

I'm really eager to see the results of the Haak et al Neolithic mtDNA full sequences, hopefully that will provide some clarity.

newtoboard
04-18-2013, 01:14 PM
One of the Hungarian project admins just told me that MtDNA Hg H's Near Eastern origin is underpinned by the relative highest frequency/diversity of HV and R0 in Arabia. Are there any diversity maps drilling down into Hg H out there?

Even if mt H was in Iberia before Beaker is there any evidence, H subclade-wise, that it also rode Bell Beaker migrations? It looks like not, but I just want to be sure.

Pretty sure HV's diversity is centered around the Fetile Crescent. Not sure about R0. Even the Kalash have it.

newtoboard
04-18-2013, 02:06 PM
H3 is largely limited to Europe and north Africa. Both H1 and H3 have their densest distribution in Iberia. It was initially thought that they were also most diverse there. Yet breaking down H1 itself into subclades revealed that some are barely present in Iberia. H1a and H1b are densest in Eastern Europe. Even more significantly, H1 and H3 have a low diversity in Cantabrian Spain and in particular among the Basques. Instead the highest diversity and allelic richness of H1 and H3 in Europe is found in north-eastern and north-central regions, while the Near East has the greatest overall diversity of H1, and north Africa that for H3.

O García, R Fregel, J M Larruga, V Álvarez, I Yurrebaso, V M Cabrera and A M González, Using mitochondrial DNA to test the hypothesis of a European post-glacial human recolonization from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge (http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v106/n1/abs/hdy201047a.html), Heredity, vol. 106 (2011), pp. 37–45. [Full text free online.]

It might be useful to discuss mtDNA H in the forum for same, or invite GailT to this discussion.

Any maps of H1's near east distibution?

pconroy
04-18-2013, 06:15 PM
@ Paul

I'm bemused. Which Pala paper? T1a1a1 has not been found in the Tarim Basin mummies. There are no Tocharian-speakers alive today, so I can't think where else you might be looking. T2a1b1 appears in remains from both Cucuteni-Tripolye and Andronovo. Were you thinking of that?


Jean,

This paper:
"Mitochondrial DNA Signals of Late Glacial Recolonization of Europe from Near Eastern Refugia"

Here's the relevant quote from the Pala pape on T1:

70% of the samples in T1a1 fall within T1a1a1 (Table S2).
The geographic distribution of T1 is extraordinary—lineages
are distributed, albeit at varying frequencies, across
its range throughout the tree, from northwestern Africa
throughout Europe, the Caucasus, and the Near East,
into western India, and across central Asia into Siberia.
The South Asian lineages tend to cluster with or match
Near Eastern ones in the HVS-I network, but common
HVS-I types frequently match across an extremely wide
range. Indeed, the root type of T1a1a1, dating to ~7 ka
ago, is very unusual among whole-genome mtDNA types
in that it is shared between multiple geographically
distant individuals from Scandinavia, the Baltic, the North
Caucasus, Anatolia, and Morocco. The distribution of
T1a is both widespread and patchy, although at low
frequencies overall, the values rise to ~5% in the South
Caucasus, ~6% in northeastern Iran, ~8% in Tunisia, and
almost 9% in Romania (Table S3). Curiously, despite the
age of T1a1a1, it has not been seen in any Neolithic
remains to date.

;)

Jean M
04-18-2013, 07:36 PM
I'd guess from the distribution of T1a1a1 that it spread first with the Neolithic. North Africa and the Caucasus are areas where presumed Neolithic languages were not completely overlaid by IE languages, so we would expect them to better reflect the Neolithic spread than most of Europe, though both North Africa and the Caucasus certainly have had Post-Neolithic input, including loads of European colonists into North Africa.

Y-DNA G2, common it seems in the European Neolithic, is today highest in the Caucasus.

alan
04-18-2013, 10:11 PM
The most controversial and interesting aspect of European R1b is not really how it spread with beaker networks but more how it reached the zone where beaker networks developed. Focussing on the beaker aspect is interesting but European R1b clearly had a pre-beaker life.

TigerMW
04-23-2013, 04:32 PM
Cooper, Haak and Brotherton have put out their study that supposedly has a lot of focus on mt DNA H. I'm looking for it but in their press release, they comment.

What is intriguing is that the genetic markers of this first pan-European culture, which was clearly very successful, were then suddenly replaced around 4500 years ago, and we don't know why. Something major happened, and the hunt is now on to find out what that was."


The expansion of the Bell Beaker culture (named after their pots) appears to have been a key event, emerging in Iberia around 2800 BC and arriving in Germany several centuries later. This is a very interesting group as they have been linked to the expansion of Celtic languages along the Atlantic coast and into central Europe.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2013-04/uoa-adr042213.php

Jean M
04-23-2013, 04:50 PM
The paper is here:

Neolithic mitochondrial haplogroup H genomes and the genetic origins of Europeans (http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v4/n4/full/ncomms2656.html)


Haplogroup H dominates present-day Western European mitochondrial DNA variability (>40%), yet was less common (~19%) among Early Neolithic farmers (~5450 BC) and virtually absent in Mesolithic hunter-gatherers. Here we investigate this major component of the maternal population history of modern Europeans and sequence 39 complete haplogroup H mitochondrial genomes from ancient human remains. We then compare this ‘real-time’ genetic data with cultural changes taking place between the Early Neolithic (~5450 BC) and Bronze Age (~2200 BC) in Central Europe. Our results reveal that the current diversity and distribution of haplogroup H were largely established by the Mid Neolithic (~4000 BC), but with substantial genetic contributions from subsequent pan-European cultures such as the Bell Beakers expanding out of Iberia in the Late Neolithic (~2800 BC). Dated haplogroup H genomes allow us to reconstruct the recent evolutionary history of haplogroup H and reveal a mutation rate 45% higher than current estimates for human mitochondria.

I will purchase. So expect it in the library shortly.

[Edit] It's there. And note that the complete consensus mt genome sequences have been deposited to NCBI GenBank under accession numbers KC553980 to KC554018.

R.Rocca
04-23-2013, 07:14 PM
I think the distribution of Y-DNA DF27 combined with mtDNA haplogroups H1 and H3 make a pretty convincing case for an early Maritime Beaker expansion out of Iberia.

GoldenHind
04-23-2013, 07:48 PM
The most controversial and interesting aspect of European R1b is not really how it spread with beaker networks but more how it reached the zone where beaker networks developed. Focussing on the beaker aspect is interesting but European R1b clearly had a pre-beaker life.

I agree. It appears to me that a fair portion of R1b has no presence whatsoever in Iberia. If the Beakers expanded out of Iberia as some contend, much of R1b apparently wasn't part of that expansion.

TigerMW
04-23-2013, 09:37 PM
I agree. It appears to me that a fair portion of R1b has no presence whatsoever in Iberia. If the Beakers expanded out of Iberia as some contend, much of R1b apparently wasn't part of that expansion.

When I look at the various Bell Beaker migration "arrow" maps it's looks like a sprawling mess of water snakes. Perhaps Portugal was just the west coast base... but an important base or early colony.

Since we have supposedly youthful R1b quite a ways to the east you have to wonder if the male mediated gene flow was not mostly, at least initially, by water, which wouldn't leave as good an archaeological trail as Bell Beaker pots. So it might follow that the Bell Beaker movements were just one phase of the male gene flow.

I recognize the Sea Peoples were at a much later time, but may be the Sea Peoples are just a picture of their ancestors.

Then you have the other major cultural practice that seems to have its own cross-cultural life of its own - the metallurgy.

R.Rocca
04-24-2013, 05:18 PM
The phylogenetic network diagram (Figure 1) of the Brotherton study is extremely interesting. On the left side of the diagram we have a clear representation of Early Neolithic farming variety of mrDNA H and to the right we have the Middle and Late Neolithic groups. The Middle Neolithic groups are...

Baalberge Culture (3950-3400 BC)
Mallory sees it more as a continuation of the TRB Culture with eastern influences and not the result of pastoralists from the steppe. It looks like the base of one of the Baalberge H samples is derived from an LBK branch.

Salzmünde Culture (3400-3100/3025 BC)
Salzmünde also seems to be a remnant of late TRB, but this group seems to have had strong Baden Culture influences by way of the Saale-Elbe basin.

Trying to correlate R1b with either Baalberge or Salzmünde on such little data is tough, but the arrival of wheels and the Secondary Products Revolution in the area could have offered the spark for R1b sometime around 3500 BC. Then again, the area is very complicated and it could be that we find some early but partial R1b intermingled in these cultures as has occurred with Corded Ware skeletons where the older ones belonged to haplogroup G and possibly I or J with later results producing R1a.

Jean M
04-24-2013, 06:00 PM
My thinking is that there were waves of dairy farmers up the Danube after the initial spread of farming. The LBK seems to have petered out, rather than (as has been generally supposed) generating the Middle and Late Neolithic cultures which supplanted it. So for me the most interesting part of this study is the support for that conclusion.

The central/northern European cultures I have included in this putative dairy farming spread are Rossen, Lengyel and TRB. The TRB appears to have spread from the Balkans, and then later acquired the complete Secondary Products Revolution from Cucuteni. So it would not surprise me to find some R1b-L23 in the TRB, presumably Z2105. But we must await ancient DNA.

TigerMW
04-24-2013, 08:17 PM
My thinking is that there were waves of dairy farmers up the Danube after the initial spread of farming. The LBK seems to have petered out, rather than (as has been generally supposed) generating the Middle and Late Neolithic cultures which supplanted it. ...

As best as I can glean from Jean and others this is the general timeline and expansion of dairy farming through Europe, starting from the Sea of Mamara.

6500-5000 BC - Sea of Marmara area (both sides) in Turkey
5250-4500 BC - West coast of Black Sea/Lower Danube in Moldova & Romania - Hamangia

5200-3400 BC - Dniester Valley in Moldova & Ukraine - Cucuteni-Tripolye
5000-3400 BC - Austria to Poland Middle Danube/East side of Alps/Upper Elbe,Oder,VistulaLengyel

4500-4000 BC - Germany Middle Rhine, Upper Wesser, Upper Elbe in Germany & Netherlands - Rossen
4300-3500 BC - Northern France & Belgium - Michelsberg

4000-2700 BC - Northern Germany, Poland & Southern Scandinavia - Funnelbeaker
4100-3300 BC - Southern Britain
3800-2500 BC - Atlantic/Northwestern France - Chasseen

This seems to omit Southwestern Europe, though, right? We have a lot of R1b and mt H in this area too, albeit they may be different kinds.

Jean M
04-24-2013, 08:54 PM
http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/images/dairyfarmingmap.jpg

lgmayka
04-24-2013, 09:40 PM
Frankly there is no correlation. H is the most common mtDNA haplogroup today all over Europe. R1b is the most common Y-DNA haplogroup in western Europe.
Yes, let us all please remember that R1b-L11 predominates only in western Europe. In contrast, mtDNA H has over 40% of Poles and Russians and over 30% of Lithuanians.

TigerMW
04-24-2013, 10:01 PM
Yes, let us all please remember that R1b-L11 predominates only in western Europe. In contrast, mtDNA H has over 40% of Poles and Russians and over 30% of Lithuanians.

Given the new Brotherton study and our understanding of resolution of mt H, are there any subclade of mt H that correlate with Western Europe and R1b-L11? (Regardless of being predominant or not, in other words, is there a subclade of mt H that might be a diagnostic marker in Italic, Celtic and Germanic lands?)

R.Rocca
04-25-2013, 12:11 PM
Given the new Brotherton study and our understanding of resolution of mt H, are there any subclade of mt H that correlate with Western Europe and R1b-L11? (Regardless of being predominant or not, in other words, is there a subclade of mt H that might be a diagnostic marker in Italic, Celtic and Germanic lands?)

Italic, Celtic, Germanic and Slavic seem to be so much later developments, that I would say there is probably little to correlate with specific subclades of mt H. But, that is not to say that some versions of mt H like H3 and my own H4a1 won't be interesting to associate with movements of say DF27. I guess we'll need a better definition of the lower levels of mt H branching and many more aDNA sequences before we can really get anything concrete though.

Rathna
04-25-2013, 01:32 PM
Italic, Celtic, Germanic and Slavic seem to be so much later developments, that I would say there is probably little to correlate with specific subclades of mt H. But, that is not to say that some versions of mt H like H3 and my own H4a1 won't be interesting to associate with movements of say DF27. I guess we'll need a better definition of the lower levels of mt H branching and many more aDNA sequences before we can really get anything concrete though.

Of course all this has been said: from Italy to Iberia, from Iberia to central Europe and the Isles.
The unique thing that my homonymous let uncertain was whether R1b1* was from Mesolithic Italy or came from East. He bet many times upon Italy.

Seamus Hamill-Keays writes in “Celtic origins: Iberian dimension”:

ABSTRACT
Iberian dimensions that could underpin the ‘Celticization from the West’
hypothesis are examined. The disposition of Celtic tribes in Iberia in classical times is
established by reference to ancient sources. A mosaic-like dissemination of Celtic
languages is illuminated by reference to modern scholars and the important recent
identification of Tartessian as Celtic is recognised. The standard hypothesis that Celtic
speakers invaded Iberia from the north is refuted. The presence of a Proto-Celtic
substratum in the west of the Peninsula is deduced from archaeological findings, a
Celticity earlier than that of the Celtiberians in the valley of the Ebro. The areal
prehistory of the Proto-Celtic language is traced by reference to scholarly opinions and
various techniques, including a phylogenetic approach; it is proposed that Proto-Celtic
reached western Iberia via a Mediterranean route. The mechanisms of Neolithic
dispersal of Indo-European languages from a putative Anatolian homeland are analysed
and Maritime Pioneer Colonization identified as being the main mechanism responsible
for their arrival in south-west Portugal. Élite dominance over the indigenous inhabitants
followed. By reference to phylogenetic or ‘archaeogenetic’ sources, three genetic
haplogroups are proposed to have been carried by the pioneers who later extended their
Proto-Celtic influence northwards along the Atlantic façade from c.5400 BC. The
possibility of the arrival of the pioneers in Portugal along the eastern Iberian littoral is
discounted and the Maghreb postulated as being a more probable route for Neolithic
Indo-European dispersal from Sicily. Attention is drawn to the effect of the 8200 calBP
Cold Event is driving the dispersal onwards, a catastrophe only recently identified. A
new hypothesis regarding the emergence of the Celts in western Iberia is then presented.

TigerMW
04-25-2013, 01:44 PM
Given the new Brotherton study and our understanding of resolution of mt H, are there any subclade of mt H that correlate with Western Europe and R1b-L11? (Regardless of being predominant or not, in other words, is there a subclade of mt H that might be a diagnostic marker in Italic, Celtic and Germanic lands?)


Italic, Celtic, Germanic and Slavic seem to be so much later developments, that I would say there is probably little to correlate with specific subclades of mt H. But, that is not to say that some versions of mt H like H3 and my own H4a1 won't be interesting to associate with movements of say DF27. I guess we'll need a better definition of the lower levels of mt H branching and many more aDNA sequences before we can really get anything concrete though.

I wasn't specific but I am intending to inquire about potential correlations of mt H subclades with Italic, Celtic and Germanic proto and predecessor dialect lineages. The linquists think the predecessors split from each other and developed with some isolation from each other very early on, i.e. the Early Bronze Age. The Satem languages like the Slavic group broke away a little later from the Western Centum language predecessors to Italic, Celtic and Germanic.

lgmayka
04-25-2013, 02:44 PM
Given the new Brotherton study and our understanding of resolution of mt H, are there any subclade of mt H that correlate with Western Europe and R1b-L11? (Regardless of being predominant or not, in other words, is there a subclade of mt H that might be a diagnostic marker in Italic, Celtic and Germanic lands?)
According to this study (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1529-8817.2003.00119.x/full), only 1.7% of Lithuanians belong to H1. That is low in comparison to Western Europe.

The same study shows 4.4% of Lithuanians belonging to mtDNA H3.

In contrast, this study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182122/) lists frequences of H1 and H3 in Slavic countries:


Population N H % H1 % H3 %
Croatia 84 44.0 8.3 6.0
Slovaks 119 42.0 7.6 .8
Czech Republic 102 41.2 10.8 2.0
Poland 86 37.2 9.3 3.5
Ukraine 191 40.8 9.9 2.1
Russia 312 40.1 13.5 1.6

TigerMW
04-25-2013, 03:12 PM
According to this study (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1529-8817.2003.00119.x/full), only 1.7% of Lithuanians belong to H1. That is low in comparison to Western Europe.

The same study shows 4.4% of Lithuanians belonging to mtDNA H3.

In contrast, this study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182122/) lists frequences of H1 and H3 in Slavic countries:


Population N H % H1 % H3 %
Croatia 84 44.0 8.3 6.0
Slovaks 119 42.0 7.6 .8
Czech Republic 102 41.2 10.8 2.0
Poland 86 37.2 9.3 3.5
Ukraine 191 40.8 9.9 2.1
Russia 312 40.1 13.5 1.6


Thanks, where does Germany, particularly northern Germany, fit in with H1 and H3?

R.Rocca
04-25-2013, 05:40 PM
Of course all this has been said: from Italy to Iberia, from Iberia to central Europe and the Isles.
The unique thing that my homonymous let uncertain was whether R1b1* was from Mesolithic Italy or came from East. He bet many times upon Italy.

Seamus Hamill-Keays writes in “Celtic origins: Iberian dimension”:

ABSTRACT
Iberian dimensions that could underpin the ‘Celticization from the West’
hypothesis are examined. The disposition of Celtic tribes in Iberia in classical times is
established by reference to ancient sources. A mosaic-like dissemination of Celtic
languages is illuminated by reference to modern scholars and the important recent
identification of Tartessian as Celtic is recognised. The standard hypothesis that Celtic
speakers invaded Iberia from the north is refuted. The presence of a Proto-Celtic
substratum in the west of the Peninsula is deduced from archaeological findings, a
Celticity earlier than that of the Celtiberians in the valley of the Ebro. The areal
prehistory of the Proto-Celtic language is traced by reference to scholarly opinions and
various techniques, including a phylogenetic approach; it is proposed that Proto-Celtic
reached western Iberia via a Mediterranean route. The mechanisms of Neolithic
dispersal of Indo-European languages from a putative Anatolian homeland are analysed
and Maritime Pioneer Colonization identified as being the main mechanism responsible
for their arrival in south-west Portugal. Élite dominance over the indigenous inhabitants
followed. By reference to phylogenetic or ‘archaeogenetic’ sources, three genetic
haplogroups are proposed to have been carried by the pioneers who later extended their
Proto-Celtic influence northwards along the Atlantic façade from c.5400 BC. The
possibility of the arrival of the pioneers in Portugal along the eastern Iberian littoral is
discounted and the Maghreb postulated as being a more probable route for Neolithic
Indo-European dispersal from Sicily. Attention is drawn to the effect of the 8200 calBP
Cold Event is driving the dispersal onwards, a catastrophe only recently identified. A
new hypothesis regarding the emergence of the Celts in western Iberia is then presented.

From the same paper:


In looking for the genetic ancestry of a Proto-Celtic élite in western Iberia, it
seems that mtDNA J1b1, Y-DNA E3b/E-M78-a and Y-DNA J haplogroups are prime
candidates for attention. However the route taken by E3B/E-M78-a according to
Oppenheimer above is open to question as it ignores the possibility of a transit of the
Maghreb in North Africa.

...and so he attributes the group found most commonly in Berbers (E3B/E-M78-a) and the group most commonly found in Semitic people (J) as being responsible for proto-Celtic?!?

And then he goes on to associate Linearbandkeramik to Slavic and Early Germanic languages of Scandanavia?!?

This paper seems to be very Klyosov-esque in its assumptions.

Rathna
04-26-2013, 05:38 AM
This paper seems to be very Klyosov-esque in its assumptions.

I took in consideration this paper above all by a linguistic point of view, and it says what others said in the past, that Celtic languages in Iberia derive from Italy.
By a genetic point of view you know that the presence of R-L51 in Iberia is linked with the Zilhao theory of the migration from Italy by boats (Valencia Region and Central Portugal). The link with Sicily (via -or not- North Africa) may presuppose the Elymians, probably linked by a linguistic point of view with Ligurians, the huge presence of R1b in western Sicily more than in the eastern one, the “Elymian” LoPiccolo R-M269* etc.

Nobody speaks of the paper about the “Tudorella sulcata” (doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0020734) that my Italian homonymous spoke about many times and which traces all these pathways.

Rathna
04-26-2013, 06:08 AM
The link with Sicily (via -or not- North Africa) may presuppose the Elymians, probably linked by a linguistic point of view with Ligurians

From Wikipedia:
The Elymian language is the extinct language of the ancient Elymian people of western Sicily. It is not known whether Elymian was an Indo-European language. The limited and fragmentary nature of the surviving sources makes it very difficult to identify its affinities with other regional languages; it has been speculated that Elymian was related to the Italic languages, though this interpretation is disputed.
Only a handful of Elymian texts have survived. These comprise a few placenames and personal names; several coins inscribed in Greek script with the names of Elymian cities; and around 170 fragments of pottery inscribed in Greek script, found in the ruined Elymian city of Segesta. All of the texts date to between the 6th and 4th centuries BC. The majority are very short and fragmentary (only a few characters), with the small number of longer texts apparently containing a name, sometimes followed by "I am". A vase found at Montedoro, around 15 km southwest of Palermo, features the only known complete inscription in Elymian. Tentatively translated, it may be read as "I [the pot] am [a gift] for/by Ata Tuka".
The problem of the identification of Elymian language can be summarized under two main positions. Some historical linguists agree that some peculiarities of that language, like non-alphabetic symbols engraved on some dedicational fragments of pots, and genitive in -ai found in almost all the complete sequences, are aspects of its non-Hellenic Eastern origin. Other historical linguists classify it as Indo-European on the basis of some affinities with Italic languages. At this point, the problem of its linguistic affiliation can receive new light only with the carrying out of archaeological investigations in Elymian settlements in western Sicily.(Antonino Rizzo).

If there is a Genitive in –ai, of course it is of Italic, specific Latin-like, origin: -i instead of –s like Latin “familia-e” from “familia-i” instead of “familia-s” (nouns in –a). In Latin this –i ended to coincide with the Locative –i. (Rathna)

AJL
04-26-2013, 12:39 PM
Rathna, there's no need to quote entire pages of links: placing the hyperlink in the message and quoting the gist of it in the post, explaining how it relates to the thread, saves space, and saves wear and tear on my old, tired eyes. :\

alan
04-26-2013, 09:00 PM
Seems in deep time its a false correlation. The Iberian H seems to have arrived in the west long before R1b, in the early Neolithic or even earlier than that. R1b seems to have arrived 3000 years or more later. I also feel we should bear in mind that the modern peak of these western H clades may, like R1b, be partially due to the extreme westerly position simply meaning less dilution over the last many thousands of years. It may not have always been the case just as for R1b it peak seems to be in areas off the beaten track of the waves of the last 2 or 3000 years. Or perhaps at one time the peak was not so hyper-peripheral and was more general across western Europe.

Also, we need to be careful that the beaker peak for H in Germany was not simply due to high status dynasties being represented in the burials who were never typical of the population.

Funny enough given the problem with the lack of convincing evidence that R1b had a major west to east out of Iberia phase except perhaps DF27 I had been thinking for a while that the main very early connector between Iberia and central Europe could have been movement of females and that perhaps their importance in the spread of cultural change is being underestimated. Perhaps even the earliest beaker potteries flow east along the Med. from Iberia did owe a considerable amount to female movement which at a high level could have been important for treaties and alliances between areas. I know the spread of Neolithic pottery type was at one stage considered a female craft that allowed styles to move among marriage network zones.

It is interesting to hypothesis that the primitive beaker phase (which lacked several beaker package aspects) of beaker in Iberia could have developed into the full package beaker phase through a meeting of Iberian influences through females moving along the Med. towards the Alps and perhaps meeting an R1b element in the Alps. Perhaps this even commenced in pre-beaker times and these kind of marriage alliances between western high status brides and Alpine metal prospectors saw the pre-beaker movement of R1b mettalurgists into the west from the Alps area. This could have been the way that friendly agreements to allow prospecting, extraction etc were set up. Such a network could have created distinctive male and female dynastic y and mtDNA balance fairly early and when further expansion happened this may have been spread by similar marriages both between beaker people and local groups looking to invite in beaker people and also between groups of beaker people themselves.

alan
04-26-2013, 09:28 PM
The phylogenetic network diagram (Figure 1) of the Brotherton study is extremely interesting. On the left side of the diagram we have a clear representation of Early Neolithic farming variety of mrDNA H and to the right we have the Middle and Late Neolithic groups. The Middle Neolithic groups are...

Baalberge Culture (3950-3400 BC)
Mallory sees it more as a continuation of the TRB Culture with eastern influences and not the result of pastoralists from the steppe. It looks like the base of one of the Baalberge H samples is derived from an LBK branch.

Salzmünde Culture (3400-3100/3025 BC)
Salzmünde also seems to be a remnant of late TRB, but this group seems to have had strong Baden Culture influences by way of the Saale-Elbe basin.

Trying to correlate R1b with either Baalberge or Salzmünde on such little data is tough, but the arrival of wheels and the Secondary Products Revolution in the area could have offered the spark for R1b sometime around 3500 BC. Then again, the area is very complicated and it could be that we find some early but partial R1b intermingled in these cultures as has occurred with Corded Ware skeletons where the older ones belonged to haplogroup G and possibly I or J with later results producing R1a.

I like that concept. It does seem that aspects like the wheel etc did spread ahead of actual steppe intrusions. One does wonder if a limitation on the spread of actual steppe cultures westwards in Europe was not partly the result that their most useful ideas and adaptions actually preceded them and transformed SOME local cultures with the upshot that their advantage over locals was minimised in some areas and perhaps some non-steppic lineages took off as a result. The climatic downturn that peaked c. 4200BC was perhaps a moment of adapt or die for many cultures, particularly in the eastern half of Europe.

TigerMW
05-17-2013, 02:58 PM
Seems in deep time its a false correlation. The Iberian H seems to have arrived in the west long before R1b, in the early Neolithic or even earlier than that. R1b seems to have arrived 3000 years or more later. I also feel we should bear in mind that the modern peak of these western H clades may, like R1b, be partially due to the extreme westerly position simply meaning less dilution over the last many thousands of years. It may not have always been the case just as for R1b it peak seems to be in areas off the beaten track of the waves of the last 2 or 3000 years. Or perhaps at one time the peak was not so hyper-peripheral and was more general across western Europe.

Also, we need to be careful that the beaker peak for H in Germany was not simply due to high status dynasties being represented in the burials who were never typical of the population.

Funny enough given the problem with the lack of convincing evidence that R1b had a major west to east out of Iberia phase except perhaps DF27 I had been thinking for a while that the main very early connector between Iberia and central Europe could have been movement of females and that perhaps their importance in the spread of cultural change is being underestimated. Perhaps even the earliest beaker potteries flow east along the Med. from Iberia did owe a considerable amount to female movement which at a high level could have been important for treaties and alliances between areas. I know the spread of Neolithic pottery type was at one stage considered a female craft that allowed styles to move among marriage network zones.

It is interesting to hypothesis that the primitive beaker phase (which lacked several beaker package aspects) of beaker in Iberia could have developed into the full package beaker phase through a meeting of Iberian influences through females moving along the Med. towards the Alps and perhaps meeting an R1b element in the Alps. Perhaps this even commenced in pre-beaker times and these kind of marriage alliances between western high status brides and Alpine metal prospectors saw the pre-beaker movement of R1b mettalurgists into the west from the Alps area. This could have been the way that friendly agreements to allow prospecting, extraction etc were set up. Such a network could have created distinctive male and female dynastic y and mtDNA balance fairly early and when further expansion happened this may have been spread by similar marriages both between beaker people and local groups looking to invite in beaker people and also between groups of beaker people themselves.

What do we know about mt H13a1a ?


Now, both H13a1a and R1b were recently found in late Neolithic Bell Beaker remains from Germany (see here and here). Moreover, today H13a1a shows a peak in frequency and diversity in the Caucasus, particularly in Dagestan, but also occurs at low frequencies in Italy, Sardinia and Iberia. Interestingly, R1b is found at fairly high frequencies among some ethnic groups in and around Dagestan, like the Lezgins, and obviously also common in Italy and Iberia.

So what am I getting at? Well, it looks like a group with loads of R1b from what is now Dagestan or surrounds - perhaps the deep ancestors of Bell Beakers and Minoans - learned to sail, crossed the Mediterranean Sea from east to west, settled a few islands along the way, and eventually their descendants conquered much of Western and Central Europe. This is certainly not the most parsimonious theory of how R1b might have appeared on the scene in Western Europe during the late Neolithic, but it does make sense considering all the data.
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/high-mtdna-affinity-between-bronze-age.html

For effect, he has "leaping bull" art from Crete and compares it with the bullfighting in Spain.

Bull-leaping is a motif of Middle Bronze Age figurative art, notably of Minoan Crete, but also found in Hittite Anatolia, the Levant, Bactria and the Indus Valley http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull-leaping

R.Rocca
05-17-2013, 04:14 PM
From Roostalu (2009)...

"The more frequent clades, characteristic of the European group of populations, are H1, H3, H5a."

"The relatively high frequency of H13a1, together with those of H2a4 and H6a, characterizes Daghestan populations, distinguishing them from other northern Caucasus populations."

So here we have opposite subclades of H in two different areas...H1 and H3 in Spain and H2, H6 and H13 in Dagestan. In Brotherton (2013) we have H2 appearing in a Unetice sample, H6 appearing in a Corded Ware sample and H13 appearing in a Bell Beaker sample. Needless to say, three flavors of H that are common in Dagestan appearing in three different cultural complexes does not get me excited, and in no way shows an association with any Y halpogroup.

TigerMW
05-17-2013, 04:51 PM
From Roostalu (2009)...

"The more frequent clades, characteristic of the European group of populations, are H1, H3, H5a."

"The relatively high frequency of H13a1, together with those of H2a4 and H6a, characterizes Daghestan populations, distinguishing them from other northern Caucasus populations."

So here we have opposite subclades of H in two different areas...H1 and H3 in Spain and H2, H6 and H13 in Dagestan. In Brotherton (2013) we have H2 appearing in a Unetice sample, H6 appearing in a Corded Ware sample and H13 appearing in a Bell Beaker sample. Needless to say, three flavors of H that are common in Dagestan appearing in three different cultural complexes does not seem get me excited, and in no way shows an association with any Y halpogroup.

It appears as though our IE evangelist friends are doing their best to convince us there is an association... from your web site.
http://r1b.org/?page_id=112#comment-217
:)

TigerMW
05-17-2013, 05:01 PM
From Roostalu (2009)...

"The more frequent clades, characteristic of the European group of populations, are H1, H3, H5a."

"The relatively high frequency of H13a1, together with those of H2a4 and H6a, characterizes Daghestan populations, distinguishing them from other northern Caucasus populations."

So here we have opposite subclades of H in two different areas...H1 and H3 in Spain and H2, H6 and H13 in Dagestan. In Brotherton (2013) we have H2 appearing in a Unetice sample, H6 appearing in a Corded Ware sample and H13 appearing in a Bell Beaker sample. Needless to say, three flavors of H that are common in Dagestan appearing in three different cultural complexes does not seem get me excited, and in no way shows an association with any Y halpogroup.

Since H13 is a big deal in Dagestan, it's probably time to dust off Dienekes' work. I think there must be some correlations with R1b in this mess.

The most notable thing about this figure is the relative absence of the West Asian component in the periphery of Europe. The lowest values are seen in Basque, Sardinian, Orcadian, White Utahns, Lithuanians, Finns, and Scandinavians (in no particular order).

It is worthwhile to order the European populations in terms of their Dagestan component. Excluding the populations of the Caucasus, these are, in ascending order: Basque (0.7%), Sardinian, Cypriot, Belorussian, South Italian/Sicilian, Lithuanian, Tuscans, Portuguese, Greek (3.8%), Vologda Russian, Romanian, Finnish, Spaniards, North Italian, Dodecad Spaniards, Dodecad Russian, Chuvash, Hungarian, French (7.9%), German, Scandinavian, White Utahn, Orcadian (12.6%).

Interpreting this pattern is not easy, but it does seem that this component seems to have a V-like distribution, achieving its maximum in Caucasus and its environs, then undergoing a diminution, and achieving a secondary (lower) frequency mode in NW Europe.

The surprising appearance of the homonymous Dagestan component in India suggests a widespread presence of a common ancestry element. The West Asian element, by comparison seems to have a more normal /\-like distribution around its center in Anatolia-Caucasus-Iran region. It does reach the Atlantic coast, but is lacking in Scandinavia and Finland, and also in India itself.

This is just a piece of a broader puzzle, and the picture is not yet clear. However, we can tentatively say that whatever brought the "Dagestan" component to India was not a unidirectional process, but also brought a similar population element to western Europe.
http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2010/12/fine-scale-admixture-in-europe.html

R.Rocca
05-17-2013, 06:18 PM
Since H13 is a big deal in Dagestan, it's probably time to dust off Dienekes' work. I think there must be some correlations with R1b in this mess.

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2010/12/fine-scale-admixture-in-europe.html

If I'm not mistaken, Dienekes sees an IE-speaking J2 migration as being responsible for the West Asian component in the upper Indian castes, no?

TigerMW
05-17-2013, 09:03 PM
If I'm not mistaken, Dienekes sees an IE-speaking J2 migration as being responsible for the West Asian component in the upper Indian castes, no?

I'm not sure how he related J2 to the West Asian component but here is what he says about J2 and R1a1. This quote is from 2005 so he may have adjusted since then.

More fascinating is the finding that the main haplogroup distinguishing the northern Indian brahmins from the lower castes is J2 (referred to as HG9). I have long argued that haplogroup J2, associated with the early Neolithic expansions was also the PIE lineage par excellence, and this certainly supports this theory. It may very well be that in early times, the Indo-Iranians emerged as J2-bearing Indo-Europeans diffused into the R1a1-bearing east, with the resulting J2/R1a1 then settling on the Iranian plateau and invading India from the north http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/11/more-on-r1a1-age-and-haplogroup-j2-in.html

TigerMW
05-17-2013, 09:17 PM
I'm not sure how he related J2 to the West Asian component but here is what he says about J2 and R1a1. This quote is from 2005 so he may have adjusted since then....

Here is a 2011 update as it relates to his discussion on the Tocharians.


A recent paper by Zhong et al. provides rich data on Uyghurs that can be used to carry out this program.

The phylogeographic analysis of these lineages does leave some candidates:

Haplogroup D can be excluded as Mongolian/Tibetan
Haplogroup E can be excluded as Mediterranean/African
Haplogroup C can be excluded as Altaic/South Asian (C5)
Haplogroup G2a* (West Asian) does not seem to have an important presence (3 samples)
Haplogroup H can be excluded as South Asian
Haplogroup I can be excluded as a European outlier (1 sample)
Haplogroup J*(xJ2) can be excluded as NE Caucasian/Semitic with small presence (2 samples)
Haplogroup NO; haplogroup N has been founded in a Xiongnu context, so it is likely intrusive; O is East Eurasian
Haplogroup Q is also associated with Xiongnu nomads from Pengyang

This analysis leaves four candidates: J2-M172, R1a1a-M17, R1b-M343, and L-M20.
We can exclude L-M20 because its overall low frequency in most populations makes it difficult, at present, to make a definitive pronouncement on its origin, except perhaps for its Indian L1 clade which is absent here.

J2, present in both its J2a and J2b subclades here at substantial frequencies has an origin in West Asia, as well as a substantial presence among Indo-Iranian speakers. While it is possible (indeed likely, in my opinion) to have been present among the Tocharians, we cannot exclude the possibility that it represents either a specifically Iranian influence, or even something earlier than both.

R1a1a is present in both the steppe, as well as South Asia and West Asia. Its high frequency among some Indo-Iranian populations also makes it difficult to ascribe a specifically Tocharian origin to it.

This leaves only R1b-M343 as a candidate. Have we found a genuine Tocharian genetic signature?

Then he goes into this.

The West Asian roots of R-M343 (?)

R-M343 and its main R-M269 clade are in a sense exasperating: the combination of their widespread distribution from Africa, the Atlantic, to the depths of Inner Asia, combined with their apparent Y-STR-estimated youth make it nearly impossible to associate them with a specific archaeological or historical phenomenon.

Where could R-M269 have come from? It was not present, as far as we can tell, in early Bronze Age Xinjiang, and neither has it been detected in south Siberians. The steppe/"northern" route seems out.

A southern route, from the Indian subcontinent also seems out, as despite its ubiquity elsewhere in Eurasia, it seems to have (mostly) skipped both India and (to an extent) Pakistan.

An indigenous origin seems highly unparsimonious, as it would require that it trek all the way to the Atlantic, but make hardly an impact in either East Asia or South Asia.

As far as I can tell, the only explanation for the presence of R-M343 in Xinjiang is West Asia, or at least Central Asia west of the Tarim. There it can be found at a high frequency in Armenians, Turks, north Iranians, and Lezgins among others. And, unlike both J2 and R1a1a, R-M343 does not seem to be Indo-Iranian (due to its absence in India).

He goes into the autosomal evidence but I don't see a strong conclusion as it relates to M343.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/on-tocharian-origins.html

alan
05-18-2013, 12:12 AM
Since H13 is a big deal in Dagestan, it's probably time to dust off Dienekes' work. I think there must be some correlations with R1b in this mess.

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2010/12/fine-scale-admixture-in-europe.html

Interesting that Chuvash appear high. I might be getting confused but I think it was them who were recently picked out in a new study as a new pole of genetic variation and also have a freakishly high R1b count (I think it was L23*).

TigerMW
05-20-2013, 06:47 PM
I copied this over from another thread so we could look at the Dodecad analysis with a little more focus. I also expanded the thread title to include potential autosomal correlations because I think all of this plays togther... to support or not support various hypotheses.


Dodecad K12b Irish compared Central Europe. R1b/R1b

Irish_D average Dodecad-[Gedrosia-11.9%][Atlantic/Med- 42.7%][North Euro-45.1%][Caucasus-0.2%]
Silesia Z2105 L277- L584--[Gedrosia-5.4%][Siberian-1%][Atlantic/Med- 26.6%][North Euro-54.5%][South Asian-0.5%][Caucasus-11.9%]

dartraighe
05-31-2013, 01:27 PM
R1b and H are the dominant groups in Ireland so some of them must have arrived in Ireland together.

TigerMW
05-31-2013, 05:35 PM
Richard R posted the below quote here and it is legitimate here as he speaks to relationships of mt DNA H and R1b but the major question it draws out quickly gets to other issues so I created a thread just for it here.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?975-Is-R1b-Neolithic-in-Italy-Expanding-east-west-north-starting-with-Chalcolithic
Richard, I can change the title of the thread so if you want something different let me know.


From the Boattini et al (2013) study from Italy...


As described for other European and Italian populations [2], [6], [14], [15], [57] most of the sequences belong to the super-haplogroup H, which includes
44.4% of the Italian mtDNA lineages. In particular, H1 turned out to represent a large proportion of H samples, encompassing the 13.8% of the total variability (10.4% excluding sub-lineages). Compared to H1, sub-haplogroups H3 and H5 represent much smaller fractions of H composition, reaching however noteworthy
frequencies (3.9% and 4.3% respectively). Most of the remaining samples belong to haplogroups frequently found in western Eurasia, including U5, K1, J1, J2, T1, T2, and HV. Among the U5 lineages, U5a is the most frequent (3.70%). Haplogroups K1a, HV and J1c take into account respectively the 4.39%, 4.05% and
the 3.93% of the total mtDNA variability. The remaining lineages reach frequencies that do not exceed a 3.5% threshold.

Not really a surprise as H1, H3 and H5 are the most common mtDNA haplogroups in Europe. But, here is where it gets interesting...


Our results suggest that most of Italian mitochondrial diversity originated during and immediately after LGM. In particular, estimates for H1 and H3 are even older in Italy than in the Franco-Cantabrian area [27] where these clades have been postulated to originate [4]. Furthermore, DAPC comparisons with a wide set of European haplotypes (Table S9) show that Italy, in most cases, is characterised by the highest number of different haplotypes. On the whole, these observations not only are in agreement with the existence of a human Glacial Refugium in Italy, but also suggest that its relevance has been until now largely underrated.

And then further about the Neolithisation of Italy...


The most recent archaeological syntheses [10] describe the early Neolithisation of Italy as the result of two independent and parallel processes, involving respectively the Adriatic and the Tyrrhenian coasts and dating as early as 8,100 YBP (Apulia, South-Eastern Italy) and 7,900 YBP (Liguria, North-Western Italy).

So, the question is...could R1b have been bottled up for a long time on the Tyrrhenian coast, only to emerge during the Copper Age on a westward movement to Iberia?


The most recent archaeological syntheses [10] describe the early Neolithisation of Italy as the result of two independent and parallel processes, involving respectively the Adriatic and the Tyrrhenian coasts and dating as early as 8,100 YBP (Apulia, South-Eastern Italy) and 7,900 YBP (Liguria, North-Western Italy).

So, the question is...could R1b have been bottled up for a long time on the Tyrrhenian coast, only to emerge during the Copper Age on a westward movement to Iberia?

TigerMW
05-31-2013, 06:00 PM
From the Boattini et al (2013) study from Italy...


As described for other European and Italian populations [2], [6], [14], [15], [57] most of the sequences belong to the super-haplogroup H, which includes
44.4% of the Italian mtDNA lineages. In particular, H1 turned out to represent a large proportion of H samples, encompassing the 13.8% of the total variability (10.4% excluding sub-lineages). Compared to H1, sub-haplogroups H3 and H5 represent much smaller fractions of H composition, reaching however noteworthy frequencies (3.9% and 4.3% respectively). Most of the remaining samples belong to haplogroups frequently found in western Eurasia, including U5, K1, J1, J2, T1, T2, and HV. Among the U5 lineages, U5a is the most frequent (3.70%). Haplogroups K1a, HV and J1c take into account respectively the 4.39%, 4.05% and
the 3.93% of the total mtDNA variability. The remaining lineages reach frequencies that do not exceed a 3.5% threshold.

Not really a surprise as H1, H3 and H5 are the most common mtDNA haplogroups in Europe. But, here is where it gets interesting...


Our results suggest that most of Italian mitochondrial diversity originated during and immediately after LGM. In particular, estimates for H1 and H3 are even older in Italy than in the Franco-Cantabrian area [27] where these clades have been postulated to originate [4]. Furthermore, DAPC comparisons with a wide set of European haplotypes (Table S9) show that Italy, in most cases, is characterised by the highest number of different haplotypes. On the whole, these observations not only are in agreement with the existence of a human Glacial Refugium in Italy, but also suggest that its relevance has been until now largely underrated.

Does it follow that slightly higher levels of H3 and H5 are higher along with R1b-L23*/Z2105 where it went east? I'm not that familiar with the various subclades of H in the Balkans, Anatolia and the Caucasus.

Do they say where in Italy the highly diverse H1 and H3 is found? Is it along the Central Tyrrhenian Coast, where L51 and Z2105 might have split? Italy is a big place. I think we should consider large parts of the Peninsula as distinct from the Continental areas.

Jean M
06-01-2013, 01:28 PM
Sorry for cross-posting. Please feel free to remove this post or my other one on the R1b Neolithic is Italy thread, as you deem appropriate Mike.


I see Dienekes has reviewed the paper, "Genetic structure and different population strata in Italy" by Boattini (2013).
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/05/genetic-structure-and-different.html


He sensibly points out re the mtDNA estimated dates:


I am not sure the data can be interpreted as supportive of the refugium hypothesis; they are consistent with it, but might also be consistent with the "pre-existent diversity" during colonization, as the authors themselves mention. I often give the example of Paleolithic TMRCAs for European mtDNA in the Americas, even though the actual arrival of that mtDNA was almost certainly post-1492. In any case, ancient DNA studies will eventually sort out who was where when.
This paper is another nail in the coffin of the old idea that H1 and H3 spread from Iberia in the Mesolithic, but that idea has been tottering for a while, as estimated dates for H keep shrinking, and the highest variance for H1 and H3 turn out to be elsewhere. Most importantly, the better tests on aDNA get, the more they exclude contamination, improve methods and gain longer stretches of mtDNA, the more confident we get that Mesolithic and earlier mtDNA in Europe excludes H, or that it was exceedingly rare.

newtoboard
06-06-2013, 03:19 PM
Yes it's your worst nightmare, because it is such a simple marker it cannot be manipulated un-llike autosomal admixture which depending on what assumptions you make can grossly effect the results one way or another, I have witnessed this with Tomatoes. Yes Poles do share B with Indians; and the Saami have the least B and the most A2. Showing the whole Corded Ware region with elevated B while the Caucasus the opposite is true.



Yes it is a component in admixture.

[[[ Mikewww/Moderator on 6/5/2013: It appears like we are going deeper into the sub-topic of blood types and autosomal DNA. If you want to go deeper into that, please go over to the "Correlation of R1b with ..... DNA" thread where all of these kinds of things are discussed:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?803-Correlation-of-R1b-with-mt-DNA-H-autosomal-DNA
If you can directly relate back to the Maykop/Mesopotamia discussion let's be sure to relate back to that. ]]]

Why is it my worst nightmare? More like its your wishful thinking displaying a relationship that likely doesn't exist. The amount of Northern European ancestry in India is close to maybe 5% and close to 0% in a large part of a country. South Indians have a lot of B too I believe and they have nothing to do with Poles at all. Not even language or minor autosomal admixture.

It can't be manipulated but it doesn't mean it matters or proves made up relationships. Its like the argument of ydna vs autosomal dna. In the end it is autosomal dna which determines phenotype, where a population is from and where they cluster etc not the frequency of ydna. Or do R1b/A blood type Armenians look like and cluster with R1b/A blood type Germans rather than Caucasus and West Asian neighbors?

Silesian
06-06-2013, 04:48 PM
R1b and decreased frequency in genetic marker blood type B; also found within Northern Component autosomal within Corded Ware R1a- Z-283 and Northern India R1a Z-93.

Defining geographic region by blood type A. Areas known to have elevated R1b frequency.

Blood group A is associated with high frequencies in Europe, especially in Scandinavia and Central Europe


Defining type geographic region blood type B. Areas know to be high in R1a frequency.

Blood group B has its highest frequency in Northern India and neighboring Central Asia, and its incidence diminishes both towards the west and the east, falling to single digit percentages in Spain.


In the UK, the distribution of blood type frequencies through the population still shows some correlation to the distribution of placenames and to the successive invasions and migrations including Vikings, Danes, Saxons, Celts, and Normans who contributed the morphemes to the placenames and the genes to the population.[20]



B is very common in populations of Asian descent, but rare in ones of Western European descent.


Basques 51 44 4 1

Silesian
06-11-2013, 05:20 PM
Could you prove that this extra A frequency has anything to do with coming from the Balkans? I'm saying I don't find any value in using blood type frequencies to assign a Balkan origin to Armenians. Their autosomal and ydna is typical of West Asians. The populations they are closest to are Assyrians, Azeris, Georgians and Iranians. Do you have any plots where they cluster in the Balkans? All the links say that their lingustic ancestors are from the Balkans. By this logic Indians should cluster with Poles. And the B frequency supports this relationship with Poland right?

Does having more A blood type actually mean anything with regards to autosomal admixture?

Since you did not respond to my carry over requested by mod I'll put it to you this way. Brahui are roughly 30% R1a and score 0.8% autosomal Northern European on Dodecad K12b what relation are they to Poles do they plot with them? I can surmise that a Brahui with blood type B and R1a is closer to a Pole with R1a blood type B and even though they are at the opposite ends of the Northern European autosomal component and do not plot with each other there is a common genetic paternal link. The same can be applied to the region in Assyrians, Azeris, Georgians and Iranians.

newtoboard
06-11-2013, 05:53 PM
Since you did not respond to my carry over requested by mod I'll put it to you this way. Brahui are roughly 30% R1a and score 0.8% autosomal Northern European on Dodecad K12b what relation are they to Poles do they plot with them? I can surmise that a Brahui with blood type B and R1a is closer to a Pole with R1a blood type B and even though they are at the opposite ends of the Northern European autosomal component and do not plot with each other there is a common genetic paternal link. The same can be applied to the region in Assyrians, Azeris, Georgians and Iranians.

That Brahui is closer to the Pole than who? I don't see the value point in posting frequencies because they don't indicate origin and maybe not even paternal relationships since groups have more than 1 Y-DNA. Either way the Brahui frequency is likely the result of bottleneck. And the clades of R1a are different.

What about the A/B frequencies of those R1b Bashkirs? Are they more A since they have R1b? I doubt it.

Do you have evidence that R1a leads to elevated levels of B? For all we know the lower Mediterranean autosomal admixture leads to B and explains the elevated B in those areas and the relationship is the the common lack of something.

Silesian
06-11-2013, 06:15 PM
That Brahui is closer to the Pole than who?

L23x51 with type A, whether it be in the Caucasus or Balkans or Bashkir.



I don't see the value point in posting frequencies........

Of course not that is why you cannot answer my question that a Brahui R1a z-93 carrier would be classified as Indo-European even though he has less Northern European component than an R1b L23x51 Armenian 0.8% versus 4.0%.

That's also called cherry picking.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_picking_%28fallacy%29


What about the A/B frequencies of those R1b Bashkirs?

Look at the frequency of B in the region and compare it with Coreded Ware region and India, then apply the same to the Caucasus and Arabian Peninsula and Balkans see if you notice a pattern. A.E Mourant did.



Are they more A since they have R1b? I doubt it.

There is a B cline in Europe, you just have not addressed it, rather wanting to switch to autosomal runs of your choice.


Do you have evidence that R1a leads to elevated levels of B?....

Do you have evidence it does not? Compare the cline from Eastern Europe to Northern India include the Saami and Arabian Peninsula.


I want to enable you to make your points using autosomal data very clear and definitive when expressing the Maykop region or Mediterranean. Choose 1 autosomal run we can use to compare. I want you to be able to make your point crystal clear, so you can show how R1a spread the Indo-European language in the Maykop and other regions.

newtoboard
06-11-2013, 06:32 PM
Classified as an Indo-European? What does that mean? You're just typing a bunch of nonsense. Who would classify a Z93+ Brahui as Indo-European? Brahui is a Dravidian language. Nor did I realize carrying R1a classifies you as an Indo-European. Must be a lot of Indo-Europeans in Kyrgyzstan then who don't know about their Polish brothers.

[[[Mikewww/Moderator on 6/11/2013: I'm not saying anyone is to blame for bringing it up but if the focus gets into R1a and their languages or blood types or something else lets move that conversation over to the R1a category. ]]]

TigerMW
06-12-2013, 06:58 AM
Can you set up a thread were I can debate this individual properly.

If it is about blood types and/or autosomal DNA as associated with R1b this is the right one. R1a may come up in the conversation but if we go from there to things like is R1a IE? or whatever? that needs to be over in the R1a category.

If you are ending up with a debate the usefulness of blood types and their association/non-association with DNA you might want to create a thread in the "General" category.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?26-General

rms2
06-12-2013, 11:32 AM
This may be a topic for another thread, since this one is already kind of long, but what about lactase persistence? It certainly seems that lactase persistence would come in handy for pastoralist populations and would just naturally tend to come to be prevalent in them. Take a look at a map of the most common LP gene among Eurasians, C/T 13910:

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/lp1.jpg

It's obviously at its most frequent in R1b-rich environments.

I hesitate to mention this (because I am still kind of sick to death of the whole "Indo-European" thing), but weren't the Indo-Europeans - if there ever were such a people - supposed to be big-time pastoralists? If so, why is LP so obviously wimpy in the Pontic-Caspian Urheimat and on down into India?

TigerMW
06-12-2013, 04:50 PM
This may be a topic for another thread, since this one is already kind of long, but what about lactase persistence? It certainly seems that lactase persistence would come in handy for pastoralist populations and would just naturally tend to come to be prevalent in them. Take a look at a map of the most common LP gene among Eurasians, C/T 13910:

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/lp1.jpg

It's obviously at its most frequent in R1b-rich environments.

I hesitate to mention this (because I am still kind of sick to death of the whole "Indo-European" thing), but weren't the Indo-Europeans - if there ever were such a people - supposed to be big-time pastoralists? If so, why is LP so obviously wimpy in the Pontic-Caspian Urheimat and on down into India?

I think this a good thread to catalog these kinds of things. Some do or must overlap.

... and there is some kind of correlation between R1b-L11 and lactose persistence at least when you look at Western and Northern Europe.

I've seen this before but this is the first time I noticed two things.
1) About at Austria/Slovakia, there is a lactose persistence higher yellowish frequency hotspot amidst the lower frequency green in Central Europe.
2) The Fertile Crescent is almost replicated by the blue swoop of very low frequency lactose persistence.

I think one concern about how we often think about the Indo-Europeans is that they were "one" people speaking a common language. By definition, PIE was a common language (last time it was so) but that doesn't mean all PIE speakers were of a single culture. Also early adopters of IE speaking or those around the edges may definitely have been different. David Anthony would not call the Yamnaya a culture, but an horizon because it wasn't really one culture, one tribe or one nation. It was a multitude with some interconnection/exchange.

newtoboard
07-28-2013, 03:30 PM
This may be a topic for another thread, since this one is already kind of long, but what about lactase persistence? It certainly seems that lactase persistence would come in handy for pastoralist populations and would just naturally tend to come to be prevalent in them. Take a look at a map of the most common LP gene among Eurasians, C/T 13910:

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/lp1.jpg

It's obviously at its most frequent in R1b-rich environments.

I hesitate to mention this (because I am still kind of sick to death of the whole "Indo-European" thing), but weren't the Indo-Europeans - if there ever were such a people - supposed to be big-time pastoralists? If so, why is LP so obviously wimpy in the Pontic-Caspian Urheimat and on down into India?

Who is this obvious to? That is just one mutation. 22018A is probably more common than 13910T in Asia. Not to mention the likely local mutations that only exist in Asia. Of course this doesn't account for the likely bottleneck that occured in NW Europe. That R1b relationship doesn't apply to West Asia or the Balkans anyways.