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rms2
04-18-2013, 11:43 AM
Things aren't looking up for Z251 as a potential refuge for our stranded DF13* guys. I haven't seen a positive result yet, and there were five more this morning. I count 11 Z251 test results since 11 April, but no positives.

I'm not trying to discourage people from ordering it, but I just haven't seen a single positive yet.

MJost
04-18-2013, 12:36 PM
Z251 negative Dag Nabbit!!!

MJost

MJost
04-18-2013, 01:46 PM
I have noted that there are five addtional kits awaiting their Z251 results via the WTY L21 project.

MJost

TigerMW
04-18-2013, 02:51 PM
Things aren't looking up for Z251 as a potential refuge for our stranded DF13* guys. I haven't seen a positive result yet, and there were five more this morning. I count 11 Z251 test results since 11 April, but no positives.
I'm not trying to discourage people from ordering it, but I just haven't seen a single positive yet.

Yes, disappointing so far. It seems that a lot of these newly discovered SNPs depend on a couple of quick hits to get off to a good start for exploratory testing.

Here is a post from one of the citizen-scientist R1b1a2 1kHG project researchers.

On R1b-L21-Project yahoo group on Feb 22.

Z251 was identified some time ago as part of our analysis of 1000 genomes data. However, because of problems with primer design, until now it has been neglected....

I was able to design some primers that allowed verification of the variant, and confirm its phylogentic location under DF13, parallel to all known subclades. With Thomas's help we now have a set of primers that give unambiguous results, so I expect that this marker should be available through FTDNA in the near future.

I am pleased to report that investigations in a series of British samples suggest Z251 tags a reasonably common subclade of DF13, with a frequency similar to the major branches (DF1, DF21, DF49, Z253).

I'm hopeful that this marker will make a good number of the DF13* folk lose their asterisk....

I would think that we are going to have some hits (positives) on this, but it appears that this will be like shooting in the dark. I guess its not as bad as what some explorers faced.
Ferdinand Magellan's daring circumnavigation of the globe in the sixteenth ... Mariners feared they could literally sail over the edge of the world :)

BTW, Rich. Thanks for using a consistent format for starting this kinds of threads on single SNPs. It makes it easy to find.

rms2
04-23-2013, 08:05 AM
Well, we have our first Z251+ results this morning: Munn, kit 139697, McKnight, kit 29253, and Watt, kit 89888.

MJost
04-23-2013, 01:31 PM
Well, we have our first Z251+ results this morning: Munn, kit 139697, McKnight, kit 29253, and Watt, kit 89888. I stil see five still awaiting results.

It appeares that variety 912 is one of the + kits and the other two are 13*- uas and zzDF13unassigned.

MJost

TigerMW
04-23-2013, 01:34 PM
EDIT:( I had the wrong guy and should have checked the Y SNP report first. It is 29523 so the "5" immediately follows the the "29". There is no connection of Z251 to L1335. L1335+ folks are Z251-

f29523 McNaught is in an unassignable DF13* paragroup, at least until now.

f139697 Godwin (Munn is owner) is in a small variety I all "921". It looks like mostly Godwin people.

f89888 Watt is in any unassignable STR signature type so.

This could indicate Z251 is old given the other three folks that are positive.

MJost
04-23-2013, 01:44 PM
29253 is also L1335- as per snp page.

MJost

rms2
04-24-2013, 11:50 AM
EDIT:( I had the wrong guy and should have checked the Y SNP report first. It is 29523 so the "5" immediately follows the the "29". There is no connection of Z251 to L1335. L1335+ folks are Z251-

f29523 McNaught is in an unassignable DF13* paragroup, at least until now.

f139697 Godwin (Munn is owner) is in a small variety I all "921". It looks like mostly Godwin people.

f89888 Watt is in any unassignable STR signature type so.

This could indicate Z251 is old given the other three folks that are positive.

That was my error in reporting the results. I should have typed 29523 but typed 29253 instead. Sorry. It was early in the morning.

MJost
04-24-2013, 03:15 PM
Those Dang Fuzzy Typo Mites...

MJost

rms2
04-25-2013, 08:01 AM
Next time, I'll just copy and paste. :)

rms2
04-27-2013, 12:03 PM
Another Z251+ this morning: Blair, kit 186657. Several Z251- results otherwise.

TigerMW
04-27-2013, 03:15 PM
Another Z251+ this morning: Blair, kit 186657. Several Z251- results otherwise.

Blair fits into a fairly strong (unusual) STR signature I've been calling 711. It'll now be 251-711 because they are all suspects. There is a Czech in the group.

f83220 Armstrong zzL21suspect z711125 Ireland
f186657 Blair R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z251+ Z251+ L144- z711125 zzCountry
fN5199 Dew R1b-P312>L21 L21+ L144- 3c1g z711125 zzCountry
f136561 Dvorak R1b-P312>L21>DF13 DF13+ z711125 Czech Rep
f131104 Grandbois zzL21suspect z711125 France
f211454 Kimmins zzL21suspect z711125 Ireland
f203836 Mahany zzL21suspect z711125 Ireland
f255219 McDonald R1b-P312>L21 L21+ L144- z711125 Scotland
f103705 Waldron zzL21suspect z711125 England
f24273 zzzUnknown R1b-P312>L21>DF13 DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41-
L1335- L371- L555- L96- L144- L195- L130- 3c1g z711125 England

rms2
04-28-2013, 12:32 PM
Blair fits into a fairly strong (unusual) STR signature I've been calling 711. It'll now be 251-711 because they are all suspects. There is a Czech in the group.

f83220 Armstrong zzL21suspect z711125 Ireland
f186657 Blair R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z251+ Z251+ L144- z711125 zzCountry
fN5199 Dew R1b-P312>L21 L21+ L144- 3c1g z711125 zzCountry
f136561 Dvorak R1b-P312>L21>DF13 DF13+ z711125 Czech Rep
f131104 Grandbois zzL21suspect z711125 France
f211454 Kimmins zzL21suspect z711125 Ireland
f203836 Mahany zzL21suspect z711125 Ireland
f255219 McDonald R1b-P312>L21 L21+ L144- z711125 Scotland
f103705 Waldron zzL21suspect z711125 England
f24273 zzzUnknown R1b-P312>L21>DF13 DF13+ L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41-
L1335- L371- L555- L96- L144- L195- L130- 3c1g z711125 England

When I get the chance, I'll email some of those guys, Dvorak included, and urge them to order Z251. I've got a big paper for a graduate statistics class to finish today. Once I get that out of the way, I'll have more time. (Still not sure how to apply what I have learned to haplotypes, even though I am carrying an "A" in the class.)

MJost
04-28-2013, 04:01 PM
Duplicated

MJost
04-28-2013, 04:27 PM
When I get the chance, I'll email some of those guys, Dvorak included, and urge them to order Z251. I've got a big paper for a graduate statistics class to finish today. Once I get that out of the way, I'll have more time. (Still not sure how to apply what I have learned to haplotypes, even though I am carrying an "A" in the class.)

Does anyone know the paternal lineage for Dvorak? Seems like he is might be a migrant from the NW Europe. The -711 guys:

IntraClade Coalescence (n-1) Age 422 ybp
f136561 Dvorak
f103705 Waldron
f24273 zzzUnknown

IntraClade Coalescence (n-1) Age 609 ybp
f136561 Dvorak
f103705 Waldron
f24273 zzzUnknown
f203836 Mahany
f211454 Kimmins
f83220 Armstrong
f255219 McDonald


Interesting.

MJost

TigerMW
04-29-2013, 11:28 PM
Look like a lot of work has to be done to get Z251 on the ISOGG tree although I don't think there is much doubt it belongs. The human genome project results don't qualify to support placement on the ISOGG Y haplotree.

At least one person who is DF49+, one who is DF41+, one who is DF21+, one who is DF1+/L513+, one who is, etc., etc. has to be tested.


Not I, too many irons in the fire already...

Z251 is not included in Geno 2.0 and is not covered by any of the primers used in WTY, so no ability to re-blast old chromatograms.

The low coverage 1000 Genomes data is not of high enough quality to be used to meet ISOGG requirements.

À la carte Z251 SNP tests will need to be purchased for the 11 existing subclades of DF13 in order to get Z251 on the ISOGG tree. Personally, I would also include CTS4466, as it might well make the tree before Z251.




Is anyone tracking the requirements for ISOGG phylogenetic tree positioning?
Negative in several DF13*people so we know it is downstream of DF13.

The citizen-science research as shown Z251 is parallel to several of the other subclades of DF13, but I don't think all of them have been checked. I also am not sure that ISOGG will accept results without validation from a lab test, i.e. FTDNA's.

In this file Z251 is unknown for L96, L144.1, L371 and L555.
> http://daver.info/geno/results/R-L21.pdf

> No Z251 results are shown for these as well.
> http://daver.info/geno/results/R-L513.pdf
> daver.info/geno/results/R-DF21.pdf
> daver.info/geno/results/R-DF41.pdf
> http://daver.info/geno/results/R-DF49.pdf
> http://daver.info/geno/results/R-L1335.pdf
> http://daver.info/geno/results/R-Z253.pdf
> http://daver.info/geno/results/R-Z255.pdf

Do the Geno 2.0 test results already reported include Z251? or is this a matter of going in and rereading some of the raw data?


This where the race for recognition between SNPs in a big family (the DF13 family) comes into play. Z251 has the misfortune of being a late discovery.

rms2
04-30-2013, 11:46 AM
Look like a lot of work has to be done to get Z251 on the ISOGG tree although I don't think there is much doubt it belongs. The human genome project results don't qualify to support placement on the ISOGG Y haplotree.

At least one person who is DF49+, one who is DF41+, one who is DF21+, one who is DF1+/L513+, one who is, etc., etc. has to be tested.



This where the race for recognition between SNPs in a big family (the DF13 family) comes into play. Z251 has the misfortune of being a late discovery.

As I suggested over on the thread about CTS4466, it is now going to be up to the folks who are positive for a SNP to drum up some funds for testing the other clades so they can get their particular SNP on ISOGG's tree. Unless we get some big donations to cover it, we can't really afford to take the lead on that at the project. At $39 a pop, and so many clades to cover now, it's getting a little pricey.

rms2
05-03-2013, 11:04 AM
Thus far, it appears that only L1335 and L371 have been tested for Z251 and are negative. Two L1335+ guys (Hiles, kit 107327, and Price, 19706) and one L371+ guy (McKee, kit 143379) have tested Z251-.

That leaves the following ten clades to be tested for Z251, at $39 apiece:

R-DF49
R-L513
R-L144
R-L96
R-Z255
R-Z253
R-DF21
R-DF41
R-L555
R-CTS4466

TigerMW
05-03-2013, 05:06 PM
I hope we see some more Z251 orders. I caught wind from a project that there are undisclosed Z251+ guys being found in England that have other STR signatures than we have today - that's all I know.

rms2
05-03-2013, 06:09 PM
I hope we see some more Z251 orders. I caught wind from a project that there are undisclosed Z251+ guys being found in England that have other STR signatures than we have today - that's all I know.

Thus far, it's mostly DF13* guys who have ordered Z251. I guess most of the rest of us are pretty satisfied with what we have and don't feel the urge to try Z251.

As you know, though, we just got a donation to put toward testing for Z251, so we can start working with what we have.

rms2
05-04-2013, 12:07 AM
Okay, thanks to David Reynolds, we now have a DF21+ volunteer with a Z251 test on order. Just a few more to try to round up this weekend.

rms2
05-04-2013, 12:19 PM
Okay, thanks to David Reynolds, we now have a DF21+ volunteer with a Z251 test on order. Just a few more to try to round up this weekend.

We just took care of DF49, as well: Dave Stedman has ordered Z251.

A few more to go.

rms2
05-05-2013, 01:04 AM
As of right now we have Z251 tests on order for people who are DF21+, DF41+, DF49+, and L513+. I have contacted men who are L96+, Z255+, and L555+ and offered them the free Z251 test. If they accept, we will have exceeded the amount we have allocated for Z251 testing by a little bit, but that's okay. To test the remaining clades for it, we're going to need an additional $117 in donations or an L144+ man, a Z253+ man, and a CTS4466+ man who are willing to pay for the Z251 test themselves.

rms2
05-05-2013, 01:34 AM
I just heard from our L96+ guy, so that one is covered now, as well.

rms2
05-05-2013, 01:40 AM
I just heard from our L96+ guy, so that one is covered now, as well.

Z255+ has just been taken care of, too!

rms2
05-05-2013, 02:16 AM
So, here's how things stand: As of right now we have Z251 tests on order for men who are DF21+, DF41+, DF49+, L96+, L513+, and Z255+.

An L371+ guy and a couple of L1335+ guys have tested negative for Z251.

We still need Z251 tests from CTS4466+, L144+, L555+, and Z253+ individuals.

rms2
05-05-2013, 10:56 AM
So, here's how things stand: As of right now we have Z251 tests on order for men who are DF21+, DF41+, DF49+, L96+, L513+, and Z255+.

An L371+ guy and a couple of L1335+ guys have tested negative for Z251.

We still need Z251 tests from CTS4466+, L144+, L555+, and Z253+ individuals.

Now we have CTS4466 covered, as well. We lack only L144, L555, and Z253.

rms2
05-05-2013, 11:13 AM
Here are the kits with Z251 on order and their respective subclades (represented by SNP);

CTS4466+: Carroll, kit N59178

DF21+: Reynolds, kit 20437

DF41+: Duffy, kit 176148

DF49+: Stedman, kit 117897

L96+: Drake, kit 176268

L513+: Walsh, kit N54638

Z255+: Doty, kit 33100

rms2
05-05-2013, 07:50 PM
Adding L555 to the list:

CTS4466+: Carroll, kit N59178

DF21+: Reynolds, kit 20437

DF41+: Duffy, kit 176148

DF49+: Stedman, kit 117897

L96+: Drake, kit 176268

L513+: Walsh, kit N54638

L555+: Irvine, kit 22874

Z255+: Doty, kit 33100

We still need one L144+ and one Z253+ to be tested for Z251.

rms2
05-06-2013, 12:06 AM
Adding Z253:

CTS4466+: Carroll, kit N59178

DF21+: Reynolds, kit 20437

DF41+: Duffy, kit 176148

DF49+: Stedman, kit 117897

L96+: Drake, kit 176268

L513+: Walsh, kit N54638

L555+: Irvine, kit 22874

Z253+: Sisk, kit 102241

Z255+: Doty, kit 33100

I'm just waiting on an answer from the L144+ guy I emailed about this. We're almost there!

rms2
05-06-2013, 12:57 AM
Drum roll, please!

We're done!

Here's the list:


CTS4466+: Carroll, kit N59178

DF21+: Reynolds, kit 20437

DF41+: Duffy, kit 176148

DF49+: Stedman, kit 117897

L96+: Drake, kit 176268

L144+: Prosser, kit 57993

L513+: Walsh, kit N54638

L555+: Irvine, kit 22874

Z253+: Sisk, kit 102241

Z255+: Doty, kit 33100

That should do it!

Now we wait.

MJost
05-06-2013, 01:07 AM
Good Job.

MJost

rms2
05-06-2013, 01:45 AM
Good Job.

MJost

Thanks!

That is one of the things the R-L21 Plus Project works best for: getting the proper tests lined up to get new SNPs onto ISOGG's Tree. It's gratifying to be involved in it.

rms2
05-15-2013, 10:42 PM
Hey! A representative of the Baltic Cluster tested Z251+ today: ancestral surname Yurzditsky, kit 193834.

TigerMW
05-16-2013, 01:13 AM
Hey! A representative of the Baltic Cluster tested Z251+ today: ancestral surname Yurzditsky, kit 193834.
Very good. Z251 is quite scattered.

seferhabahir
05-16-2013, 05:12 AM
Yep, that would be me. Sort of a surprise, but I knew that 1111EE (Baltic Cluster) couldn't be DF13** forever.

Pretty exciting, at least for me... (note to Mike, it looks like we should move L583 out of the not positioned or private under DF13 and now put it under Z251).

MJost
05-16-2013, 02:48 PM
Now that is an interesting turn of events. I will check the variances and ages.

MJost

seferhabahir
05-16-2013, 03:12 PM
Now that is an interesting turn of events. I will check the variances and ages.

MJost

I think we will see that Z251 is almost as old as DF13 as more test results come in. I'm a GD of 30 or more at 111 markers from the other Z251+ results.

MJost
05-16-2013, 03:18 PM
Ok Here is what I see

Intraclade Founder's Modal Age
YrsPerGen=30

Count____ModalGenAge____StdDevInGen____YBP____ +OR-YBP

N=13____z3881111_________33.3____18.8______999.1__ __562.6
N=18____Z251_____________75.7____28.3____2,270.3__ __848.0
N=31____Z251 & Z3881111___78.3____28.8____2,350.3____862.9

MJost

MJost
05-16-2013, 03:40 PM
Ashkenazi Cluster with dys464 grouping

N=11 3881111 with 15-15-15-16/17 28.8 17.4 863.9 523.1

MJost

seferhabahir
05-16-2013, 04:10 PM
282013 Judel Zakon, b. 1843 (Ashkenazi Levite)

This kit just come back as the fourth known L583+ (I asked him to test because of the Levite designation). Unfortunately, there are only 12 markers but this kit is in the L21 project. Pretty much proves my point about Baltic Cluster Levites being L583+ and nicely ties this SNP to paternal family traditions. Now, if we could only find the common ancestor for L583 that would be something.

Also, Thomas Krahn put L583 under Z251 in his draft tree today. Pretty interesting week.

MJost
05-16-2013, 08:56 PM
Was there any possible connection of these N=11 z3881111 HTs as it pertains to the expulsions in 1290's from England or there after from France as the IntraClade Coalescence is about 706 YBP?

MJost

seferhabahir
05-16-2013, 10:30 PM
Was there any possible connection of these N=11 z3881111 HTs as it pertains to the expulsions in 1290's from England or there after from France as the IntraClade Coalescence is about 706 YBP?

I don't really know. Here's a summary map that shows Jewish expulsions and resettlements from 1100-1500.

http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/gallery/expuls.HTM

This is why I have no clue about where the 1111EE members really come from. They just mostly all ended up in Eastern Europe after various expulsions and pogroms and could have come from many different places. My lineage didn't come from Belarus, just that my known ancestors happened to live there before coming to America. It's a pretty good bet that the 1111EE common ancestor (and the common ancestors of a lot of other tight Ashknazi haplotypes in R1a, R1b, R2) lived in Western Europe around the time of Rashi (1040-1104). There weren't a lot of Ashkenazi Jews in that area to begin with, but the lucky ones have ancestors still alive today to do DNA testing.

MJost
05-17-2013, 03:26 AM
Seferhabahir,

My Coalescence age would be to one common ancestor that ended up in the Baltic and created a couple of main lineages from there starting about 864 ybp with a +- 334 years at 68.27% Confidence. It just seemed a near match in time events and I thought it was an interesting item.

MJost

rms2
05-18-2013, 09:33 AM
As of this morning we have eliminated DF49, Z253, and Z255 from the Z251+ phylogeny with Z251- results for the following kits:

Stedman, kit 117897 (DF49+)

Sisk, kit 102241 (Z253+)

Doty, kit 33100 (Z255+)

Dubhthach
05-18-2013, 12:50 PM
As of this morning we have eliminated DF49, Z253, and Z255 from the Z251+ phylogeny with Z251- results for the following kits:

Stedman, kit 117897 (DF49+)

Sisk, kit 102241 (Z253+)

Doty, kit 33100 (Z255+)

Z251- results as well for:
DF21+: Reynolds, kit 20437
L513+: Walsh, kit N54638

rms2
05-18-2013, 01:00 PM
Z251- results as well for:
DF21+: Reynolds, kit 20437
L513+: Walsh, kit N54638

Those came in since I checked this morning first thing. FTDNA used to post everything early and then that was it. Now the results are dribbling in bit by bit.

Good. Two more subclades down.

TigerMW
05-23-2013, 05:14 PM
Here are the pending Z253 ala carte SNP tests from the L21 project.

509 5/15/2013
512 6/5/2013
513 6/11/2013
515 6/26/2013
515 6/26/2013
515 6/26/2013
515 6/26/2013
515 6/26/2013
516 7/3/2013
517 7/10/2013
517 7/10/2013

rms2
05-24-2013, 07:52 AM
Okay, the following are Z251- as of this morning:

Duffy, kit 176148 (DF41+)

Drake, kit 176268 (L96+)

In another surprise, however, the following is Z251+:

Irvine, kit 22874 (L555+)

So, we have discovered that L555 and L583 are downstream of Z251. That's tidying some loose ends up a bit. :)

Dubhthach
05-24-2013, 08:02 AM
Okay, the following are Z251- as of this morning:

Duffy, kit 176148 (DF41+)

Drake, kit 176268 (L96+)

In another surprise, however, the following is Z251+:

Irvine, kit 22874 (L555+)

So, we have discovered that L555 and L583 are downstream of Z251. That's tidying some loose ends up a bit. :)

Wow, that makes things more interesting, Z251 is looking like quite a diverse clade!

-Paul
(DF41+)

rms2
05-24-2013, 10:53 AM
Wow, that makes things more interesting, Z251 is looking like quite a diverse clade!

-Paul
(DF41+)

Yeah, it's cool that it has collected a couple of subclades together under its umbrella.

TigerMW
05-24-2013, 01:30 PM
Wow, that makes things more interesting, Z251 is looking like quite a diverse clade!

Yes, very interesting indeed. It looks like Andy Grierson was right.

rms2
05-24-2013, 02:44 PM
Yes, very interesting indeed. It looks like Andy Grierson was right.

It would be nice if one or both of the clades still awaiting Z251 results were to go positive. I don't know how likely that is, but it would be neat.

Here are all that are left awaiting Z251 results:

CTS4466+: Carroll, kit N59178

L144+: Prosser, kit 57993

(I thought there were more than that!)

seferhabahir
05-24-2013, 02:55 PM
Yeah, it's cool that it has collected a couple of subclades together under its umbrella.

Yes, pretty cool indeed. Not only did I find a new home, but also had company drop by already. ;)

rms2
06-08-2013, 12:56 PM
It would be nice if one or both of the clades still awaiting Z251 results were to go positive. I don't know how likely that is, but it would be neat.

Here are all that are left awaiting Z251 results:

CTS4466+: Carroll, kit N59178

L144+: Prosser, kit 57993

(I thought there were more than that!)

Prosser went Z251- this morning, so all we are waiting on now is Carroll, our CTS4466+ guy.

seferhabahir
06-08-2013, 01:17 PM
Prosser went Z251- this morning, so all we are waiting on now is Carroll, our CTS4466+ guy.


Another Z251+ result (from Kit 24273) also showed up, now making 8 known positive results out of 50. This person is in the 251-711 group, so it is an expected result.

rms2
06-08-2013, 03:57 PM
Another Z251+ result (from Kit 24273) also showed up, now making 8 known positive results out of 50. This person is in the 251-711 group, so it is an expected result.

I'll be relieved when Z251 finally gets on the tree so I can organize you all into the new category and its L583 and L555 subdivisions. B)

kenmunn
07-02-2013, 05:24 PM
Looks like "relief has arrived". David said this morning that a test on the final CTS4466 needed shows Z251- so it will qualify Z251 to be in the place now occupied by L555, which will slip down one notch.

seferhabahir
08-01-2013, 06:27 AM
I'll be relieved when Z251 finally gets on the tree so I can organize you all into the new category and its L583 and L555 subdivisions. B)

It looks like there has not been a new Z251+ result for the last two months. I'm wondering how we can get more people to test for it, now that we have apparently run out of DF13** people looking for their terminal SNP. The scope of this SNP is probably pretty large given the GDs but I don't know how to motivate additional (non-L555, non-11EE) Z251 tests. I'm really curious to find out how Z251 led to L555 and to L583.

rms2
08-01-2013, 01:30 PM
FTDNA hasn't posted any new SNP results in awhile. It's odd.

There are currently eight Z251 tests on the R-L21 Plus Project's Pending Lab Results page. A couple of them are really void already because they were ordered by people who are positive for something else that is Z251- (we've got one member who is ordering everything but the kitchen sink despite my admonition to him that he is wasting his money).

There are no Z251 tests on the Pending Shipment to Lab page, so those eight I mentioned above are it for now.

seferhabahir
08-09-2013, 03:37 PM
FTDNA hasn't posted any new SNP results in awhile. It's odd.

There are currently eight Z251 tests on the R-L21 Plus Project's Pending Lab Results page. A couple of them are really void already because they were ordered by people who are positive for something else that is Z251- (we've got one member who is ordering everything but the kitchen sink despite my admonition to him that he is wasting his money).

There are no Z251 tests on the Pending Shipment to Lab page, so those eight I mentioned above are it for now.

Did a new Z251+ result just come in? Ymap shows 9 out of 56 for Z251.

seferhabahir
08-09-2013, 04:06 PM
Did a new Z251+ result just come in? Ymap shows 9 out of 56 for Z251.

Also, in the R-L21 Plus Project kit 268422 (no surname) is listed as being Z251+ but I think this is a mistake because his SNP results do not show this value...

TigerMW
08-09-2013, 04:18 PM
Did a new Z251+ result just come in? Ymap shows 9 out of 56 for Z251.

Sometimes these fly by me because I try to let the spreadsheet formulas do the work.

I just checked the spreadsheet that I just updated and see I have kit # 109174 (YS 2VQV9) and hadn't added him to a "variety", indicating I never looked at his haplotype.... and that is probably because I just added his result, or rather the spreadsheet did after the copy/paste operation.

f109174 Harrington

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/harrington/default.aspx?section=ysnp

The closest GD at 67 I can find to another Z251+ person is 15. He has closer GDs to DF21 and Z253 person so he is not the kind you'd have suspected to be Z251.

If this is the new guy or you find him, please post on the L21 yahoo group, too. We need a little more inspiration on Z251 testing.

BTW: Although these are not close GDs, if you told me I had to find a guy with some common off-modals with Harrington that might be Z251+, I'd suggest:

f144926 Matheson R1b-P312>L21

and then maybe these two:

f169548 Warthen R1b-P312>L21
f75146 Warthen R1b-P312>L21>DF13

seferhabahir
08-09-2013, 07:14 PM
Sometimes these fly by me because I try to let the spreadsheet formulas do the work.
f109174 Harrington

The closest GD at 67 I can find to another Z251+ person is 15. He has closer GDs to DF21 and Z253 person so he is not the kind you'd have suspected to be Z251.

If this is the new guy or you find him, please post on the L21 yahoo group, too. We need a little more inspiration on Z251 testing.


Yes, this is the new guy. He just posted on Yahoo, I will respond to him.

rms2
08-10-2013, 01:02 AM
I just got in a little while ago from a little trip to West Virginia or I would have seen the result earlier. Anyway, he's in the Z251+ category now.

eastcarolinatarheel
08-27-2013, 11:45 PM
FYI. I just posted the following to the L21 Yahoo Group:

Good news! I have recruited two new participants to test z251. WARTHEN (f169548) placed his order today and MATHESON (f144926) states he will place his order in the next couple of days. Both individuals were suggested by Mike as we share some off-modal markers.

seferhabahir
08-28-2013, 01:14 AM
Good news! I have recruited two new participants to test z251.

Nice. We need some more people to be Z251+. But I haven't bugged any 251-11EE to test because I don't see how they can be anything but Z251+. I'll be having discussions with the admins of the Jewish R1b Project to see if I can get all the 251-11EE kits in that project put into a sub-group labeled appropriately, instead of scattered around as they are now. Then, when we find out if there are any interesting SNPs between Z251 and L583 there might be a chance to get them to test for some. This assumes there will be some way to test new SNPs uncovered by Full Genomes testing. I am curious to see how many SNPs I end up with that are not in common with L555 people (they could be specific to 251-11EE, but then again, they could be common for anyone who is Z251+ L555-).

TigerMW
08-28-2013, 03:09 PM
FYI. I just posted the following to the L21 Yahoo Group:

Good news! I have recruited two new participants to test z251. WARTHEN (f169548) placed his order today and MATHESON (f144926) states he will place his order in the next couple of days. Both individuals were suggested by Mike as we share some off-modal markers.

That's excellent. I hope we get some positives out of this. If they are both negative I may have to have a drink.

eastcarolinatarheel
09-06-2013, 02:19 AM
Mike - Could you tell me if the aforementioned kits have been batched yet?

TigerMW
09-06-2013, 02:33 PM
Mike - Could you tell me if the aforementioned kits have been batched yet?

Here are the Z251 tests pending that I'm aware of. The batch #s are 529, 530 and 531.

169548 Warthen Z251 Z251 531 10/16/2013
144926 Matheson Z251 Z251 531 10/16/2013
236075 Foat Z251 Z251 530 10/9/2013
E9328 Unknown Z251 Z251 530 10/9/2013
63671 Jones Z251 Z251 530 10/9/2013
270983 Craig Z251 Z251 529 10/2/2013
30949 Rayborn Z251 Z251 529 10/2/2013

eastcarolinatarheel
09-09-2013, 02:01 AM
Thanks Mike. Although I mentioned he may want to wait on the other results, WARTHEN (f75146) contacted me today to inform me he had ordered z251 as well. He's a close match with the other WARTHEN participant so I suspect their results will be the same, whatever that may be.

TigerMW
09-16-2013, 05:12 PM
Okay, the following are Z251- as of this morning:

Duffy, kit 176148 (DF41+)

Drake, kit 176268 (L96+)

In another surprise, however, the following is Z251+:

Irvine, kit 22874 (L555+)

So, we have discovered that L555 and L583 are downstream of Z251. That's tidying some loose ends up a bit. :)

Another bit of a surprise.. the value of exploratory SNP testing is important. A new L555+ has come up. Prior to this L555 seemed to be relegated to the large Irwin/Ervin/Irvine family.

I just saw a surname Nipper come in as L555+ but I can't find the Byrne who is L555+. Was this done thru FTDNA testing or something else?


Looks like you have discovered a second fingerprint of L555. The modal of the Byrne submissions does match 5 of 8 of my existing L555 fingerprint and three Byrne submissions (127795, 96442, 105475) are predicted 20 % chance of testing positive for L555. So testing of lower probability and lower fingerprint matches can pay off. However, your Byrne cluster has so many additional L21 off modal values (and conflicting L21 off modal values) that a second fingerprint is probably in order:

For the current L555 fingerprint:

Shared off modal values include: 385b>=15, 464b>=16, H4<=10, 570<=16 and 534>=16

Missed off modal values include: 448=19 (which is the L21 modal)

Conflicting off modal value include: YCAIIa<=19 (L555 is YCAIIa>=24 (mutation in other direction)

Conflicting off modal value include: 456>=18 (L555 is 456<=15 (mutation in other direction)

New off modal L21 values for the Byrne cluster modal are extensive:

391<=10, 392>=14, 458<=18, 459b<=9, 456<=17, 442<=11, 413a<=22, 436>=13 & 640>=12

(with 16 off modal values, several are probably post L555 in origin).

The boundary conditions of L555 have not been well tested to date - so congratulations on making L555 and others much broader than currently thought. I will attempt to update my L555 analysis with a second fingerprint to see what other clusters may be closely related to your Byrne cluster and have high probability of testing positive for L555.
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-L21-Project/conversations/topics/15699

seferhabahir
10-03-2013, 04:46 PM
The fifth known L583 positive result just came in, and I will try to get this kit's owner to join the R-L21 Plus Project so it can be listed together with the other four known results under L583+ (L21>DF13>Z251>L583). For now, this result (kit 276365 Gleeman) can be found in the Jewish Ukraine West FTDNA Project. I was able to recruit this person to test through a face-to-face meeting in August at a genealogy conference.

:bounce:

eastcarolinatarheel
10-04-2013, 01:00 AM
That's great news! I'm eagerly awaiting the Matheson and Warthen results. I have also placed Z251 orders for a 1/2 2nd cousin and a 1/2 3rd cousin of mine as we differ on 2 and 1 markers out of 67, respectively, so I've ordered Z251 and upgraded their kits to 111 markers so we can get a better idea of any potential signatures. Once I get the STR results and, assuming the Z251 test is positive, I'll place their kits in the L21 Plus Project.

Rnipper
10-07-2013, 01:10 AM
I am the Nipper that you refer to in the upper post. Ftda 260850 ysearch 83x9x, since then I have also posted positive for L557 and L561 although my paper trail goes back to 1640 scotland, I have no idea how Im related to the irving/irwins

i have also notice a Bryne you mint be trying to locate A6NED

eastcarolinatarheel
10-14-2013, 05:51 PM
Am I correct in that this is a new Z251+?

236075 Foat

rms2
10-14-2013, 07:17 PM
Am I correct in that this is a new Z251+?

236075 Foat

Yes, as of this weekend just past.

seferhabahir
10-17-2013, 05:49 PM
The fifth known L583 positive result just came in, and I will try to get this kit's owner to join the R-L21 Plus Project so it can be listed together with the other four known results under L583+ (L21>DF13>Z251>L583). For now, this result (kit 276365 Gleeman) can be found in the Jewish Ukraine West FTDNA Project. I was able to recruit this person to test through a face-to-face meeting in August at a genealogy conference.

This kit has now joined the R-L21 Plus Project and should be moved from the Ungrouped category into the L583 group whenever time permits. The person whose DNA this was just passed away, but I am hoping he was informed of his L583+ and probable Levite status before he died.

rms2
10-18-2013, 07:57 AM
This kit has now joined the R-L21 Plus Project and should be moved from the Ungrouped category into the L583 group whenever time permits. The person whose DNA this was just passed away, but I am hoping he was informed of his L583+ and probable Levite status before he died.

He's in the L583+ category now.

eastcarolinatarheel
11-11-2013, 01:38 AM
As expected, the two cousins of mine referenced earlier in the thread have come back Z251+. Any word on MATHESON and the two WARTHEN participants yet?

McKnight77
11-22-2013, 06:20 PM
Thanks to those who have posted this info, and to those who are doing the hard work for us all.

I am kit # 29523 Z251+.

I have been watching the other SNPs coming up under Z251 and I am wondering if I should test for them. I have already completed the Geno 2.0. I'm also considering the FTDNA Big-Y test just out. I want to get the most value for my money, but I am also willing to spend money if it helps us all. I believe that only one Z251+ man has ordered the Big-Y?

Advice?

Jim McKnight
29523, BXHEY

eastcarolinatarheel
11-23-2013, 05:05 AM
Hi Jim.

I am the one who has ordered the Big Y. I have tested Z251+, L555- and have not tested L583. We have an L583, a L555 and a Z251* that have Full Genomes test on order. I also have a Chromo2 test on order as well. If you have the means, it would be great to get another Z251 to order Big Y before the price goes up. I think it would help for the research of Z251 in the long run and maybe encourage new SNP testing if any new, downstream SNPs are identified in your test.

Charles Harrington
109174, 2VQV9

kenmunn
11-23-2013, 04:05 PM
FG order went to BGI this week in batch 5. Kit# 139697. Z251+

seferhabahir
11-24-2013, 05:05 PM
I am kit # 29523 Z251+.

I have been watching the other SNPs coming up under Z251 and I am wondering if I should test for them. I have already completed the Geno 2.0. I'm also considering the FTDNA Big-Y test just out. I want to get the most value for my money, but I am also willing to spend money if it helps us all. I believe that only one Z251+ man has ordered the Big-Y?

Advice?

29523, BXHEY

Your Geno 2.0 results already indicate you are negative for the known SNPs under Z251 (L555, L557, L561, L583). No need to test them. Also L583 results can be predicted by looking at STR markers, and yours show you would not be L583. Ordering the BIG Y would be a good idea if you have the funds for it.

seferhabahir
11-24-2013, 05:07 PM
FG order went to BGI this week in batch 5. Kit# 139697. Z251+

Looks like mine was also sent.

eastcarolinatarheel
11-25-2013, 04:13 AM
I am not sure if it has been mentioned, but Jim Wilson's Chromo2 comparison file lists Z251 as "S470" in case anyone is curious and was not already aware.

CoryCrawford
01-13-2014, 11:52 PM
Hey all. I just found out that I am Z251+ from the Chromo 2 test equivalent, S470. I also know that I am L555 (S393) negative, but not sure about L583. Does anyone know if there is a Chromo 2 equivalent for that SNP?? Also know that there is another kit in the R-L21 Yahoo Group with Chromo 2 results similar to mine under Pierce fN10900.

One last thing…I got in on the Big Y Presale so this group should get another set of data points when they come in.

I'll be in touch.
Cory

rms2
01-14-2014, 12:47 AM
Hey all. I just found out that I am Z251+ from the Chromo 2 test equivalent, S470. I also know that I am L555 (S393) negative, but not sure about L583. Does anyone know if there is a Chromo 2 equivalent for that SNP?? Also know that there is another kit in the R-L21 Yahoo Group with Chromo 2 results similar to mine under Pierce fN10900.

One last thing…I got in on the Big Y Presale so this group should get another set of data points when they come in.

I'll be in touch.
Cory

Chromo2 tests for L583 under that name. I have it in my raw results with a "GG" and "negative".

Check your raw results for L583.

kenmunn
01-14-2014, 12:57 AM
Hey all. I just found out that I am Z251+ from the Chromo 2 test equivalent, S470. I also know that I am L555 (S393) negative, but not sure about L583. Does anyone know if there is a Chromo 2 equivalent for that SNP?? Also know that there is another kit in the R-L21 Yahoo Group with Chromo 2 results similar to mine under Pierce fN10900.

One last thing…I got in on the Big Y Presale so this group should get another set of data points when they come in.



I'll be in touch.
Cory

There appears to be nothing on the chromo 2 list of SNPs that is equivalent to L583. Your are very unlikely to be positive for it in any case since I believe it is pretty much restricted to a Rabbinical Jewish line. Seferhabahir would be the most knowledgeable on this group.

rms2
01-14-2014, 12:59 AM
There appears to be nothing on the chromo 2 list of SNPs that is equivalent to L583. Your are very unlikely to be positive for it in any case since I believe it is pretty much restricted to a Rabbinical Jewish line. Seferhabahir would be the most knowledgeable on this group.

L583 is included in the Chromo2 test under the same name: L583 (see my post just before yours).

It's in my raw results. I am negative for it.

TigerMW
01-14-2014, 02:39 AM
Hey all. I just found out that I am Z251+ from the Chromo 2 test equivalent, S470. I also know that I am L555 (S393) negative, but not sure about L583. Does anyone know if there is a Chromo 2 equivalent for that SNP?? Also know that there is another kit in the R-L21 Yahoo Group with Chromo 2 results similar to mine under Pierce fN10900.

One last thing…I got in on the Big Y Presale so this group should get another set of data points when they come in.

I'll be in touch.
Cory

Jim Wilson of BISDNA lists them as equivalent, which is why the spreadsheet reflects the Z251 haplogroup. I don't know anything about the stability of S470. Can anyone validate or unvalidate the equivalence of or approximate equivalence of S470 and Z251?

seferhabahir
01-14-2014, 08:45 AM
Chromo2 tests for L583 under that name. I have it in my raw results with a "GG" and "negative".

Check your raw results for L583.

The ancestral value for L583 is C, the derived value is T. Not sure why you would have "GG" for result, but then I don't know a lot about Chromo2 files.

seferhabahir
01-14-2014, 08:50 AM
You are very unlikely to be positive for it in any case since I believe it is pretty much restricted to a Rabbinical Jewish line. Seferhabahir would be the most knowledgeable on this group.

It's indicative of an Ashkenazi Levite line. Not quite the same as a rabbinical line, although it might have been once upon a time. There is an L583 wiki page (which I probably need to go update) at

http://l21plus.1up.no/L583

rms2
01-14-2014, 09:00 AM
The ancestral value for L583 is C, the derived value is T. Not sure why you would have "GG" for result, but then I don't know a lot about Chromo2 files.

They must be reading it from the other side of the double helix. G is paired with C, and A with T, so it all depends on which side you're looking at.

seferhabahir
01-14-2014, 09:07 AM
Jim Wilson of BISDNA lists them as equivalent, which is why the spreadsheet reflects the Z251 haplogroup. I don't know anything about the stability of S470. Can anyone validate or unvalidate the equivalence of or approximate equivalence of S470 and Z251?

ISOGG's YBrowse lists S470 and Z251 at the same location (ChrY: 8,736,334 - hg19) so it's not approximate equivalence, but exact.

MJost
01-14-2014, 12:49 PM
ISOGG's YBrowse lists S470 and Z251 at the same location (ChrY: 8,736,334 - hg19) so it's not approximate equivalence, but exact.

Correct, they are exactly the same position or better explained as Phyloequivalent, Phylo-equivalent or Phylogenetically Equivalent.

MJost

CoryCrawford
01-14-2014, 11:53 PM
Chromo2 tests for L583 under that name. I have it in my raw results with a "GG" and "negative".

Check your raw results for L583.


Oops. Never thought to check L583 directly. I am negative for it so now I guess we wait for BigY.

eastcarolinatarheel
01-19-2014, 05:29 PM
Cory - What's the location of your earliest known Crawford ancestor?

rms2
01-20-2014, 11:43 PM
There's a new Z251+ today: Burgin, kit 231656. He currently lists "Unknown" for place of ancestral origin.

A quick search for that surname revealed that it is supposed to have been first recorded in Devonshire in England, but I don't know how accurate that information is. It is also alleged to be of Norman French origin.

TigerMW
01-21-2014, 01:06 PM
There's a new Z251+ today: Burgin, kit 231656. He currently lists "Unknown" for place of ancestral origin.

A quick search for that surname revealed that it is supposed to have been first recorded in Devonshire in England, but I don't know how accurate that information is. It is also alleged to be of Norman French origin.
His closest GD at 67 in the spreadsheet is 10 for a Foat, who is also Z251+. That's not really that close but they do have the following common off-modals.

389b<=15 454>=12 456<=14 531>=12 413=22,23 534>=16 530>=21 565=11

After Foat, the next closest GD is 20 so we can see that Z251 is a multi-signature, diverse (old) subclade.

CoryCrawford
01-23-2014, 03:02 AM
Cory - What's the location of your earliest known Crawford ancestor?

Our paper trail had led us back to County Down circa 1790, but we now believe that we have a NPE. I had my furthest known full male relative tested and they were not even close to a match. Not even the same haplogroup. They matched a very common Crawford lineage and I matched none so we started investigating and the verbiage in one of the wills from about 1850 makes us think two sons were not biological with us descending from one of them.

Long story short, I don't think my earliest known ancestor is reliable information. Ever since this discovery I have been hot on the SNP trail to hopefully someday get a match with a recent enough SNP to know which surname I should start researching.

kenmunn
02-07-2014, 12:25 AM
After first sample turned up as insufficient quality to be run in batch 5 at BGI for FGC a re-sample is winging its way to BGI now as part of batch 7. If any Z251 samples have FGC results from batch 5
please post any new SNPs that are of high quality so I can look for them when my results are finally done.

rms2
02-07-2014, 08:53 AM
There's a newly minted Z251+ this morning: Sinclair, kit 62937, whose mdka was from Perthshire, Scotland.

kenmunn
03-02-2014, 08:55 PM
Re-posting from R1b-L21 Haplogroup Yahoo group page in regard to Z251 new subclades:

I have taken a look at the BISDNA Chromo2 data as it relates to the 27 R-Z251 men in the spreadsheet. It looks as though there are two new significant subclades, S3741/CTS4157 and R-S11556 which also has a further R-S9294 subgroup.

Haplogroup
Number of Men
R-Z251*
11
R-Z251>S393/L555
4
R-Z251>S3741/CTS4157
6
R-Z251>R-S11556* 2
R-Z251>R-S11556>S9294 4
Total R-Z251
27

I see two Chromo2 results files in the Yahoo Files for Harrington and Crawford. Crawford (f180639) looks to fall into the R-Z251>R-S11556* group, while Harrington (f109174) is in fact R-Z251>R-S11556>S9294. It's great that we have these men as they give us some idea of what the haplotypes for these haplogroups look like. Do we have any other Chromo2 results for Z251 men?

Unfortunately we may have to be careful with S11556 and S9294, they are recurrent, and do occur in other places below L21. Oddly enough, they seem to occur in combination. I'm not sure these SNPs will make the ISOGG tree, but they might be useful for genealogy.

As for R-Z251>S3741/CTS4157, there is a 1000 genomes man, NA19789 who is CTS4157+. There is a spreadsheet of STR values for various 1000 genomes men, but unfortunately he isn't in the list. Perhaps this subclade will show up again in Big Y testing, or another Chromo2 test.

Based on the Chromo2 data we can tell that R-S393/L555, R-S3741/CTS4157 and R-S11556 are siblings under Z251. L583, the 4th child of Z251, isn't on the Chromo2 test, so it's relationship is less understood.

Regards,
Alex

rms2
03-02-2014, 09:04 PM
I see that CTS4157 is included in the Big Y test, as well.

rms2
03-02-2014, 09:10 PM
I see that CTS4157 is included in the Big Y test, as well.

L555 and L583 are there, too.

seferhabahir
03-19-2014, 04:41 AM
After first sample turned up as insufficient quality to be run in batch 5 at BGI for FGC a re-sample is winging its way to BGI now as part of batch 7. If any Z251 samples have FGC results from batch 5
please post any new SNPs that are of high quality so I can look for them when my results are finally done.

Pretty soon... :eyebrows:

eastcarolinatarheel
03-26-2014, 12:08 AM
Alex et. al.

Has Jim Wilson given any indication if any matching features will ever be offered through Scotlands/Britains DNA? I am curious about the other 3 S9294+ gentlemen, but it's virtually impossible to be in touch with them unless they take it upon themselves to seek out some of our message boards, L21 groups, etc. Has anyone asked if they would be willing to do this or enable some other means of communicating with other testers in the future? I am particularly interested since I have no close STR matches and since I'm still seeking my Old World origin.

Charles Harrington
f109174

seferhabahir
04-05-2014, 12:24 AM
Mike,

Why is there no Z251 sub-forum like all the other sons of DF13? We feel left out. I keep having to remember to go into the DF13 forum to find this thread. Can we have our own sub-forum for Z251?

seferhabahir
04-05-2014, 12:34 AM
Pretty soon... :eyebrows:

Received my FGC results this morning (wow, what a wait, but I am very happy to have them) and in the process of downloading my BAM file.

A quick look shows there are 821 total variant private SNPs of which 42 are "high reliability". Note that I'm positive (derived) for both S11556 (A>G) and S9294 (G>T), so I would think these two SNPs are definitely downstream of Z251.

Also, my high reliability variant SNPs are now labeled FGC11962-FGC12003. None of these SNPs have been found in any other individuals (save one). But there is, I think, a mistake in the variant compare file that shows that FGC11962 was found in one other known individual, 1000 Genomes HG01356 (a male from Medellin, Colombia), but that person is known to be L2, not L21. For reference, I show FGC11962 as 17349099G>A and since nobody has any of the other 41 SNPs, I don't think anyone else has FGC11962 either.

Using Mark Jost's (and others') 75 years or so per SNP guideline, does that then mean that my line represented by these 42 SNPs perhaps broke off from DF13 and Z251 approximately 3,150 years ago? I also just noticed that my confirmed by Sanger sequencing L583+ SNP had a *** flag on it, making me wonder how many of my ** and *** private SNPs might also be real ones.

seferhabahir
04-05-2014, 02:46 AM
From the haplogroup compare file I received from FGC today, it appears that 1000 Genomes sample NA11831 is Z251+ S11556- S9294- (and I believe so is an L555+ Big Y kit) further supporting the hypothesis that S11556 and S9294 are downstream from Z251. So, then I guess I would have to hypothesize that L555/L557/L561 are not downstream from S11556 and S9294. This means L583 descends from an S11556/S9294 subclade downstream from Z251 and that L555 (and L557/L561) does not. Seems we might want to change the picture of Z251 to reflect this until something else from Big Y or FGC says otherwise.

kenmunn
04-06-2014, 02:21 AM
Mike,

Why is there no Z251 sub-forum like all the other sons of DF13? We feel left out. I keep having to remember to go into the DF13 forum to find this thread. Can we have our own sub-forum for Z251?

Hear, hear!

seferhabahir
04-06-2014, 08:27 AM
So, I guess I am now semi-officially

R-L21>DF13>Z251>S11556>S9294>L583

Too bad there aren't any other 251-11EE people that have taken Big Y or Full Genomes because there are probably tens of SNPs between S9294 and L583 that might be shared by 251-11EE. Perhaps with the seeming success of Big Y I might be able to convince another 251-11EE to do Big Y.

Rathna
04-06-2014, 08:58 AM
Using Mark Jost's (and others') 75 years or so per SNP guideline, does that then mean that my line represented by these 42 SNPs perhaps broke off from DF13 and Z251 approximately 3,150 years ago? I also just noticed that my confirmed by Sanger sequencing L583+ SNP had a *** flag on it, making me wonder how many of my ** and *** private SNPs might also be real ones.

Then your calculation should be updated. It brought just to the Sea Peoples, but probably we should think to something else.

Ainsley31415926
04-08-2014, 05:26 AM
Hear, hear!

Hear , hear, hear

eastcarolinatarheel
04-09-2014, 02:15 AM
seferhabahir -

I am R-L21>DF13>Z251>S11556>S9294 and have sent my Big Y .bam file to FGC and YFull so maybe we can have an easier means to compare to see if there are any shared SNPs between S9294 and L583.

seferhabahir
04-09-2014, 07:36 AM
I am R-L21>DF13>Z251>S11556>S9294 and have sent my Big Y .bam file to FGC and YFull so maybe we can have an easier means to compare to see if there are any shared SNPs between S9294 and L583.

I'll be interested to see what shows up. Maybe there will be a couple of SNPS in common below S9294.

kenmunn
04-09-2014, 09:47 PM
Hear , hear, hear

All ye who have ears to hear, please let them hear. Comment # 110,113, 116 refer. Is anyone listening?:biggrin1:

TigerMW
04-10-2014, 11:32 PM
Mike,

Why is there no Z251 sub-forum like all the other sons of DF13? We feel left out. I keep having to remember to go into the DF13 forum to find this thread. Can we have our own sub-forum for Z251?

That's take an administrator to do that. I'm just a moderator. I support your request but see if you can find an administrator in the members list and private message them. You can quote that I support your request if that helps.

I would be posting here now more but I'm just blistered with working through the Big Y data and phylogenetic tree. Some times it is better to work than talk, maybe most of the time.

seferhabahir
04-11-2014, 12:23 AM
That's take an administrator to do that. I'm just a moderator. I support your request but see if you can find an administrator in the members list and private message them.

I sent a request to one of the administrators.

CoryCrawford
04-15-2014, 11:59 AM
Is there any interest in creating a Yahoo Group for Z251 specifically?? It seems that the R-L21 page is quite busy with all the new activity, and this would give us a spot for file storage as our group gets bigger.

kenmunn
04-15-2014, 02:12 PM
Is there any interest in creating a Yahoo Group for Z251 specifically?? It seems that the R-L21 page is quite busy with all the new activity, and this would give us a spot for file storage as our group gets bigger.

Sounds good to me. I'm too computer illiterate to be of much help on the site but do enjoy reading the posts and keeping up to date.

seferhabahir
04-15-2014, 06:04 PM
Is there any interest in creating a Yahoo Group for Z251 specifically?? It seems that the R-L21 page is quite busy with all the new activity, and this would give us a spot for file storage as our group gets bigger.

Maybe what we could set up is a Yahoo Group (and perhaps an FTDNA project) to discuss S11556/S9294. The Clan Irwin FTDNA project is very large and those that are L555+ are in the part of Z251 known to be S11556- (and S9294-). I would like to get some 251-11EE folks to join a project that does not encompass a lot of people in an effort to get them engaged in the early ancestry of their cluster. L21, DF13, and Z251 groups have proven to be way too large (and probably too British Isles focused) to interest them.

I'm making a somewhat arbitrary distinction here to separate out L555+ and CTS4571+ from an S11556+ group but since we now know that these are likely to be brother subclades, why not concentrate on the one in which we are in? This is similar to the reason why I didn't want to take on administering a Z251 FTDNA project that included large groups not necessarily of interest (e.g., L555+). But now there is a real phylogenetic reason to go smaller in scope.

I think this sub-forum is fine for now to discuss Z251, so not sure there is a good enough reason to replicate discussion in yet another Yahoo forum. Creating an FTDNA project for S11556 (or S9294) is another matter if it would help me gather up the 251-11EE cluster in one place, and any others that appear to hang off S9294. Right now, I do most of my 251-11EE things by email with the few 251-11EE that have shown interest in what is going on with the latest SNPs.

CoryCrawford
04-15-2014, 09:57 PM
I think you make a good point in going lower than Z251, just how low do we go?? I am S9294- so if it were to be split up that far, I would be forming a second group. Do you think if an S11556 group would get too big too quickly?? As I sit here now I would have to say that is my vote. Thoughts??

As to the Yahoo group idea, it would basically be for file transfer. I have some stuff that I never share there because it may be redundant or get lost in the mix. For example, some of the now HUGE excel files I have cut down to just us Z251ers. I hate to clutter up L21 with a bunch of chopped up files, but they could be helpful to others like us who don't need to see all the extra data from all L21. I don't see a way to post them here. Am I missing it??

seferhabahir
04-15-2014, 10:49 PM
... Do you think if an S11556 group would get too big too quickly?? As I sit here now I would have to say that is my vote. Thoughts??

As to the Yahoo group idea, it would basically be for file transfer. I have some stuff that I never share there because it may be redundant or get lost in the mix. For example, some of the now HUGE excel files I have cut down to just us Z251ers. I hate to clutter up L21 with a bunch of chopped up files, but they could be helpful to others like us who don't need to see all the extra data from all L21. I don't see a way to post them here. Am I missing it??

I doubt S11556 would get very big very fast. Z251 is pretty small already, and apparently smaller than we first imagined. Starting an S11556 FTDNA project might be a good idea. I would think we could set up a separate folder in the L21 Yahoo group for Z251 files. I'm pretty used to just going there already and don't know if I want to go to multiple Yahoo groups. It's not my favorite format (actually, it is my least favorite forum in terms of logistics and ease of use).

CoryCrawford
04-16-2014, 12:41 AM
I doubt S11556 would get very big very fast. Z251 is pretty small already, and apparently smaller than we first imagined. Starting an S11556 FTDNA project might be a good idea. I would think we could set up a separate folder in the L21 Yahoo group for Z251 files. I'm pretty used to just going there already and don't know if I want to go to multiple Yahoo groups. It's not my favorite format (actually, it is my least favorite forum in terms of logistics and ease of use).

Okay…that works. I created a folder in the "Files" section of the Yahoo group to get that point complete. Will you be able to start the FTDNA Project??

Peter
04-16-2014, 04:29 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but I'm new to all of this and would appreciate some advice on where to get information. After costly trial and error I'm positive for Z251. I'm aware of the subclades L555 and L583. I doubt if I belong to either of these. I'm aware that there are a couple of other downstream SNPs but I have no other information about them.

Apart from the L21 plus site and this thread I have no other source of information on Z251. Any advice will be gratefully received.

kenmunn
04-16-2014, 09:17 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but I'm new to all of this and would appreciate some advice on where to get information. After costly trial and error I'm positive for Z251. I'm aware of the subclades L555 and L583. I doubt if I belong to either of these. I'm aware that there are a couple of other downstream SNPs but I have no other information about them.

Apart from the L21 plus site and this thread I have no other source of information on Z251. Any advice will be gratefully received.

Peter, welcome to the club. I am waiting again for results from FGC after having failed QC a couple of times previously. Seferhabahir might be able to give some advice. There are some files you might get information from on the R1b-L21 Yahoo page also. It seems there are a few SNPs that are downstream of Z251 but you may wish to wait a while longer before you check for them, unless money is not an object. More Big-Y, FGC Full-Y and Chromo 2 results may bring more clarity.

seferhabahir
04-16-2014, 10:45 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but I'm new to all of this and would appreciate some advice on where to get information. After costly trial and error I'm positive for Z251. I'm aware of the subclades L555 and L583. I doubt if I belong to either of these. I'm aware that there are a couple of other downstream SNPs but I have no other information about them.

Apart from the L21 plus site and this thread I have no other source of information on Z251. Any advice will be gratefully received.

What is your FTDNA kit number? That way we can look at your STR markers to see if there is anything to be learned. The L555 and L583 (well 251-11EE) clusters are pretty identifiable via STRs and you are probably right that you don't belong to either one. I would wait a bit to see what shows up in Ken's FGC results and if he shares any downstream SNPs with others. Z251 is quite old, and I would hazard a guess that so are S11556 and S9294 since I share them with people who have large GDs from me. Welcome to the Z251 club. It's an interesting subclade of DF13.

eastcarolinatarheel
04-17-2014, 02:43 AM
seferhabahir -

Are you aware if any other Chromo2 Z251+ guys post here? I've seen on the L21 forums that BritainsDNA are updating their data and tossing out some SNPs they've deemed unreliable. I have not gotten any notification if mine has changed. I've read it may be another week or two before they've finished their updates. I posted earlier in the thread that I wish BritainsDNA would set up some type of sharing or means of contacting other testers. From the anonymous data released, there appear to be several Z251 guys and a couple of S11556/S9294 guys that haven't been identified. Alex didn't respond to me, but I wonder if Jim Wilson has mentioned anything about a contact component in the works at Britains.

Peter
04-17-2014, 09:54 AM
Thanks for the replies. My kit is 62937, paper trail to 1725, Scotland. I only tested 25 markers because that was all FTDNA offered at the time. Even so, my STR profile has a few values that stand out as being different when compared to other Z251 candidates or even the L21 population.

Z251 strikes me as being old and diverse, yet the number of men testing positive seems to be very low.

brianthebold9
05-26-2014, 05:01 AM
I am Z251+ and I would like to join in on this thread. I am part of signature group 251-1130 and my kit # is 35677. There is a fair chance I may be A241 based on other members of my group. I am looking forward to learning more about Z251 and how it will influence my genealogy research.

Hoppy
01-05-2015, 03:45 PM
This is my first post. On 12-31-14 I was found to be S11556+ through single SNP testing at FTDNA. My FTDNA Kit# 279338. I have tested Y-DNA111 but have not done the Big Y or anything similar to it. I did test Geno 2.0 also. I to am trying to learn exactly what belonging to Z251 means and where to go from here. The furthest I have been able to paper trail my paternal line is back to 1801 Ireland.
Looking forward to learning all I can about Z251.

Hoppy

Hoppy
01-05-2015, 03:56 PM
This is my first post. On 12-31-14 I was found to be S11556+ through single SNP testing at FTDNA. My FTDNA Kit# 279338. I have tested Y-DNA111 but have not done the Big Y or anything similar to it. I did test Geno 2.0 also. I to am trying to learn exactly what belonging to Z251 means and where to go from here. The furthest I have been able to paper trail my paternal line is back to 1801 Ireland.
Looking forward to learning all I can about Z251.

Hoppy

edit: Sorry for the double post. I tried to delete this post but can not see a way to delete it.

dp
01-05-2015, 04:11 PM
This is my first post. On 12-31-14 I was found to be S11556+ through single SNP testing at FTDNA. My FTDNA Kit# 279338. I have tested Y-DNA111 but have not done the Big Y or anything similar to it. I did test Geno 2.0 also. I to am trying to learn exactly what belonging to Z251 means and where to go from here. The furthest I have been able to paper trail my paternal line is back to 1801 Ireland.
Looking forward to learning all I can about Z251.

Hoppy

edit: Sorry for the double post. I tried to delete this post but can not see a way to delete it.

Welcome to Anthrogenica!

no prob on double posts. I've done my fair share :-)

dp :-)

kenmunn
01-05-2015, 05:05 PM
This is my first post. On 12-31-14 I was found to be S11556+ through single SNP testing at FTDNA. My FTDNA Kit# 279338. I have tested Y-DNA111 but have not done the Big Y or anything similar to it. I did test Geno 2.0 also. I to am trying to learn exactly what belonging to Z251 means and where to go from here. The furthest I have been able to paper trail my paternal line is back to 1801 Ireland.
Looking forward to learning all I can about Z251.

Hoppy

Hoppy this will give you an idea of the diversity of the Z251 family. You appear to fit in the middle of the three major subclades found under Z251 (based on folks that have taken either Big Y or FGC complete Y testing shown here). If you want to check further either S9294 or the quad Z17662 through Z17665 SNPs would be your best bets at this point. See: http://www.littlescottishcluster.com/RL21/NGS/R-Z251.html

seferhabahir
01-05-2015, 06:40 PM
This is my first post. On 12-31-14 I was found to be S11556+ through single SNP testing at FTDNA. My FTDNA Kit# 279338. I have tested Y-DNA111 but have not done the Big Y or anything similar to it. I did test Geno 2.0 also. I to am trying to learn exactly what belonging to Z251 means and where to go from here. The furthest I have been able to paper trail my paternal line is back to 1801 Ireland.
Looking forward to learning all I can about Z251.

Hoppy

Hi Hoppy,

I agree with Ken. You should try testing S9294 and Z17662 which appear to both be available from FTDNA to see where you fall.

Belonging to Z251 (and S11556) isn't going to tell you anything about your recent ancestry. As far as I can see, unless you fall into a recent Z251 subclade such as L555 (the Irwin guys) or A555 (the Jewish guys) that have reasonably well-identified STR values and a common ancestor from the last thousand years or so, you will be going back several thousands of years, even if you come out positive for S9294 or Z17662 because you don't really match anyone below S11556 that has tested positive for those. Best case for recent ancestry is some new folks show up with some of your STR values (maybe some other Hopkins guys).

Hoppy
01-06-2015, 03:10 PM
Hoppy this will give you an idea of the diversity of the Z251 family. You appear to fit in the middle of the three major subclades found under Z251 (based on folks that have taken either Big Y or FGC complete Y testing shown here). If you want to check further either S9294 or the quad Z17662 through Z17665 SNPs would be your best bets at this point. See: http://www.littlescottishcluster.com/RL21/NGS/R-Z251.html

kenmunn,
There is another Hopkins Kit# 188401 in the link you posted. That Hopkins is my only match (5 GD @ 67) and his testing Z251+ is the reason I was advised to test S11556, which turned out to be good advise.
Thanks for your help,
Sean Hopkins

Hoppy
01-06-2015, 03:22 PM
Hi Hoppy,

I agree with Ken. You should try testing S9294 and Z17662 which appear to both be available from FTDNA to see where you fall.

Belonging to Z251 (and S11556) isn't going to tell you anything about your recent ancestry. As far as I can see, unless you fall into a recent Z251 subclade such as L555 (the Irwin guys) or A555 (the Jewish guys) that have reasonably well-identified STR values and a common ancestor from the last thousand years or so, you will be going back several thousands of years, even if you come out positive for S9294 or Z17662 because you don't really match anyone below S11556 that has tested positive for those. Best case for recent ancestry is some new folks show up with some of your STR values (maybe some other Hopkins guys).

seferhabahir,
I just sent you an email before seeing your post here.
I will probably only be able to test one SNP at a time although it would be nice to do two at one time for time's sake if nothing else. I'll try to test both S9294 and Z17662 the first of February.
I keep hoping for others to show up with similar STR values but I have very few matches at any level. At 12 markers I have 15 matches, two 0 GD and thirteen 1 GD. At 25 markers one 2 GD match. 67 markers 5 GD and zero at 111 markers. Frustrating.
I appreciate your help,
Hoppy

kenmunn
01-06-2015, 04:41 PM
kenmunn,
There is another Hopkins Kit# 188401 in the link you posted. That Hopkins is my only match (5 GD @ 67) and his testing Z251+ is the reason I was advised to test S11556, which turned out to be good advise.
Thanks for your help,
Sean Hopkins

I suspect you would also be positive for all the Z17662 through Z17665 as well. If I were a SNP gambling man I might try S19558 which has already been named. The other unnamed SNPs are also fair possibilities for you. If you wish to save up your pennies for the next Big Y sale (or the slightly more expensive Y Prime from FGC which is my personal preference), you would get much more information as well as blazing a trail for the unknown "Hopkins" that hike the same path later. If you do the individual SNP I have found YSeq to be a much more "user friendly" company to test with as well as being less expensive. Good luck on your exploration.

Hoppy
01-07-2015, 11:29 AM
I suspect you would also be positive for all the Z17662 through Z17665 as well. If I were a SNP gambling man I might try S19558 which has already been named. The other unnamed SNPs are also fair possibilities for you. If you wish to save up your pennies for the next Big Y sale (or the slightly more expensive Y Prime from FGC which is my personal preference), you would get much more information as well as blazing a trail for the unknown "Hopkins" that hike the same path later. If you do the individual SNP I have found YSeq to be a much more "user friendly" company to test with as well as being less expensive. Good luck on your exploration.
In the long run it would be much more cost effective for me to save my money until FTDNA has another sale on the Big Y. These $39 a pop tests add up after a while. I had a $100 coupon for the Big Y during FTDNA's Holiday Sale and almost pulled the trigger on it But am glad I didn't because of some unforeseen holiday expenses that arose.
What about YSeq's R1b-Z251 panel for $88? Although I have already tested S11556+ this panel would also test .....
S9294
A555
L583
FGC11963
BY317
Z18092
Z17665
Z18108
S19558
FGC11986 (temporary addition until it will be clarified if it is phyloequivalent to S9294)

Is my thinking correct here? Looking at this test now I can see it is the way I should have gone instead of spending $39 to have a single SNP tested. If I tested for S19558 and was positive that would take care of all the SNP's above it but if I tested - I would have to figure out where to backstep to. :confused:

Hoppy

kenmunn
01-07-2015, 04:28 PM
Hoppy, for any additional tests of individual SNPs either as singles or by R1b-Z251 panel will be much more affordable from YSeq. If you are definitely interested in the Big Y you may wish to save your money to have it done around father's day or Christmas when they usually have their sales. If it were me, I would then have the BAM file analyzed by FGC because they will reveal additional STRs, if you are interested in them, as well as additional SNPs that you don't get revealed from the Big Y from ftdna. The current cost is $40 for the FGC analysis unless it has changed recently.

NGS testing is by far the best way to find out more about the order of SNPs. The correct order will slowly be determined as more and more people of that group test. That is a hard pill to swallow for us "instant gratification" guys in genealogy, but it is reality.

donmatthews0910
01-08-2015, 06:49 AM
Hello and Happy New Year to you all,
I have been reading this forum to learn more about Z251, as I am Z251+. I have been doing single SNP tests at YSEQ and after testing A241- I feel a bit frustrated. I noticed a surname match (Davis) on the Little Scottish Cluster tree that was Z251+ and wonder if I should do the 67 markers test at FTDNA. My paternal grandfather is from Wales. His birth name was Davis.

Advice appreciated.
Don

kenmunn
01-08-2015, 04:08 PM
Hello and Happy New Year to you all,
I have been reading this forum to learn more about Z251, as I am Z251+. I have been doing single SNP tests at YSEQ and after testing A241- I feel a bit frustrated. I noticed a surname match (Davis) on the Little Scottish Cluster tree that was Z251+ and wonder if I should do the 67 markers test at FTDNA. My paternal grandfather is from Wales. His birth name was Davis.

Advice appreciated.
Don
From what you describe it sounds like you are grouped with the Davis, Davies and Williams (A241- but A242+) listed in Alex's Big Tree. What to do next is something you must decide. I went through the "bled by a thousand leeches treatment" with ftdna myself before deciding for a single "major bleed" by doing the FGC Full Y Genome (now called FGC Y-Elite) while I am perfectly happy with the results I got, I would probably do their Y-Prime now since it gives about 90% of the readable SNPs"with less "acute wallet pain". Both of these also give you mitochondrial DNA results as a "freebie" as well as about 400 STRs also as a "freebie". My distant third choice would be the Big Y and then send the BAM file to FGC for analysis to get the STRs and mitocondrial DNA as well as a number of additional SNPs that ftdna reports do not reveal to you.

Seferhabahir can probably give you more scientific suggestions than I can. Mine are mostly inspired by an "acquired leech phobia" based on personal experience.

brianthebold9
01-08-2015, 09:38 PM
Hello Peter, There has been a lot of new discovery in Z251, I would encourage you to join our group R-A241 and contact the group administrator. It turned out i was A241- but now i am in A959 group.
Thanks Brian

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-A241

TigerMW
01-08-2015, 09:42 PM
There is a general Z251 project out there too so I recommend joining all that apply.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-Z251/default.aspx?section=yresults

reader
01-18-2015, 07:45 AM
In the long run it would be much more cost effective for me to save my money until FTDNA has another sale on the Big Y. These $39 a pop tests add up after a while. I had a $100 coupon for the Big Y during FTDNA's Holiday Sale and almost pulled the trigger on it But am glad I didn't because of some unforeseen holiday expenses that arose.
What about YSeq's R1b-Z251 panel for $88? Although I have already tested S11556+ this panel would also test .....
S9294
A555
L583
FGC11963
BY317
Z18092
Z17665
Z18108
S19558
FGC11986 (temporary addition until it will be clarified if it is phyloequivalent to S9294)

Is my thinking correct here? Looking at this test now I can see it is the way I should have gone instead of spending $39 to have a single SNP tested. If I tested for S19558 and was positive that would take care of all the SNP's above it but if I tested - I would have to figure out where to backstep to. :confused:

Hoppy


You mention you have a GD 5 67 marker match with kit number 188401, who you share a surname with. Based on that, it's a near certainty you will be Z17662+ and Z17665+, and S9294-, like your Hopkins match. I think ordering S9294 individually (which you mentioned possibly doing in an earlier post) would be a waste of money, but I do think the $88 Z251 panel could make sense, since it costs only slightly more than two individual SNPs and includes two relevant SNPs you haven't tested yet (Z17665 and S19558). There's a good chance you will be S19558+, though this is less certain than with Z17665+. You should be positive for the vast majority of the 34 SNPs currently specific to your Hopkins match 188401 (the block that includes S19558), but without testing all of them (for which Big Y would almost certainly be more cost effective than individual SNP testing) there's no way to know in advance which ones you'll be negative for.

Hoppy
01-24-2015, 03:50 PM
You mention you have a GD 5 67 marker match with kit number 188401, who you share a surname with. Based on that, it's a near certainty you will be Z17662+ and Z17665+, and S9294-, like your Hopkins match. I think ordering S9294 individually (which you mentioned possibly doing in an earlier post) would be a waste of money, but I do think the $88 Z251 panel could make sense, since it costs only slightly more than two individual SNPs and includes two relevant SNPs you haven't tested yet (Z17665 and S19558). There's a good chance you will be S19558+, though this is less certain than with Z17665+. You should be positive for the vast majority of the 34 SNPs currently specific to your Hopkins match 188401 (the block that includes S19558), but without testing all of them (for which Big Y would almost certainly be more cost effective than individual SNP testing) there's no way to know in advance which ones you'll be negative for.

Thanks reader. I will go with the Z251 panel at YSEQ and see how that turns out. I was in contact with my Hopkins match but have not heard back from him lately. I'm going to have to wait a while to do the Big Y. Maybe a Father's Day Sale at FTDNA?

Hoppy

McKnight77
01-31-2015, 01:19 AM
Your Geno 2.0 results already indicate you are negative for the known SNPs under Z251 (L555, L557, L561, L583). No need to test them. Also L583 results can be predicted by looking at STR markers, and yours show you would not be L583. Ordering the BIG Y would be a good idea if you have the funds for it.

My YSEQ Z251 panel test results came in today. I am listed as having the terminal SNP of Z251*. I presume that to mean negative for all known subclades of Z251.

Jim

TigerMW
01-31-2015, 04:59 AM
My YSEQ Z251 panel test results came in today. I am listed as having the terminal SNP of Z251*. I presume that to mean negative for all known subclades of Z251.

Jim
Yes, that is what Z251* means.

Z251 is likely 3000 years old, maybe up to 3500 years old. It's good to know that.

If you are interested in genetic genealogy and the last 1000 years, I recommend considering testing as a "team sport" and engaging in Next Generation Sequencing (NGS) (such as Big Y and FGC Elite.)

My general recommendation is for two NGS tests per surname per STR cluster/subgroup. NGS tests are discovery test so if you can get people somewhat closely related to you to test you'll end up with a line of SNPs that mark just your surname/family and just your STR cluster. You don't have to do any additional work, but analysts will be able to fit you under Bronze Age types of SNPS like Z251.

TigerMW
01-31-2015, 05:14 AM
...
If you are interested in genetic genealogy and the last 1000 years, I recommend considering testing as a "team sport" and engaging in Next Generation Sequencing (NGS) (such as Big Y and FGC Elite.)

My general recommendation is for two NGS tests per surname per STR cluster/subgroup......
Here is a "first glance" snapshot of Big Y results for Z251 people. You can see blocks of SNPs that were discovered that mark branching within Z251.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_SNP_Tree_Discovery_V1_Z251.pdf

Most of those SNPs had no names before they were discovered in these people.

seferhabahir
01-31-2015, 04:59 PM
My YSEQ Z251 panel test results came in today. I am listed as having the terminal SNP of Z251*. I presume that to mean negative for all known subclades of Z251.

Jim

Jim,

I don't see your results in the YSEQ Group 11 test results. Did you join the L21 Group 11 at YSEQ so we can take a look at your results? You would be the first one to show up as Z251* as far as I know which would be very interesting (that is not being FGC13899 or Z16943 or S11556).

kenmunn
01-31-2015, 06:47 PM
Welcome to an unknown branch of Z251. It will take someone choosing to do NGS testing to become a "pioneer" exploring this new frontier of Z251 for those who come behind.

donmatthews0910
02-01-2015, 12:23 AM
Just learned I am S11556+. Awaiting the rest of the panel.

McKnight77
02-01-2015, 03:47 AM
Jim,

I don't see your results in the YSEQ Group 11 test results. Did you join the L21 Group 11 at YSEQ so we can take a look at your results? You would be the first one to show up as Z251* as far as I know which would be very interesting (that is not being FGC13899 or Z16943 or S11556).

I received the results from the YSEQ Z251 panel by e-mail. I will send them to whoever needs them to be posted in the Z251 project. Just let me know who to send them to. Can I transfer them directly to FTDNA like I did with the Geno 2.0? I'm in the FTDNA Z251 group. Is there another one for YSEQ?

Jim

McKnight77
02-01-2015, 04:08 AM
Yes, that is what Z251* means.

Z251 is likely 3000 years old, maybe up to 3500 years old. It's good to know that.

If you are interested in genetic genealogy and the last 1000 years, I recommend considering testing as a "team sport" and engaging in Next Generation Sequencing (NGS) (such as Big Y and FGC Elite.)

My general recommendation is for two NGS tests per surname per STR cluster/subgroup. NGS tests are discovery test so if you can get people somewhat closely related to you to test you'll end up with a line of SNPs that mark just your surname/family and just your STR cluster. You don't have to do any additional work, but analysts will be able to fit you under Bronze Age types of SNPS like Z251.

Mike, I have only two other men that I am closely related to in the FTDNA McKnight Project. I am the admin for the project. Neither of the three of us have any more matches at 67 markers. Both men are different surnames. One of them (Smith, 67 markers) we have pretty positively pinned down as a NPE in 1850 based on our paper trails. With the other man (Beattie, 111 markers) we can find no paper trail matches until at least the 1600s in Scotland, although both our lines originate from the vicinity of Dumphrieshire. This Beattie also doesn't match other Beatties, nor do I, although we are both in the Beatty Project.

I don't think either one of them would agree to do NGS testing, but I will try with them. As for me it would be a financial strain to pay for NGS. I did the YSEQ Z251 panel hoping to match one of the known subclades.

As always, I am willing to help the cause if I can afford it.

Jim McKnight
FTDNA #29523
YSEQ #217

McKnight77
02-01-2015, 03:36 PM
I have joined Group 11 at YSEQ, so my results should be visible.

Jim

kenmunn
02-01-2015, 09:18 PM
I received the results from the YSEQ Z251 panel by e-mail. I will send them to whoever needs them to be posted in the Z251 project. Just let me know who to send them to. Can I transfer them directly to FTDNA like I did with the Geno 2.0? I'm in the FTDNA Z251 group. Is there another one for YSEQ?

Jim

Jim, unless things have changed very recently you can not transfer your results to ftdna from YSeq or FGC for that matter. Even the Z251+ that I had done at ftdna does not show as a final SNP because their "neolithic shrub" does not recognize it at the present time. I hope that sometime in the not too distant future a true genealogical site is available to post ALL tests done by all reputable companies. It seems that ftdna's financial interests are not served by listing competitor's test results so we'll just have to wait until an entity or group can get the expertise and funds to set it up.

seferhabahir
02-02-2015, 09:03 PM
I have joined Group 11 at YSEQ, so my results should be visible.

Jim

Thanks. Yep, you are indeed Z251* in a group of your own (for now).

Hoppy
02-28-2015, 03:16 PM
I received an email from YSEQ today stating that they had received my samples for my R1b-Z251 Panel. Although I have already tested S11556+ I am really looking forward to getting the results from this panel. I still have 0 matches at 111 markers, one 5 GD match at 67, 0 at 37 markers, one 2 GD at 25 (who doesn't match past 25) and only fifteen matches at 12 markers. I guess "my people" aren't into DNA testing. Lol.

Hoppy
03-04-2015, 12:54 PM
Wow...already have my Allele Results from YSEQ for my Z251 Panel. That sure was fast. Let me see if I can post them here as I have NO idea as to what they signify. Does this mean anything yet or is it too early to tell? Any idea how long it will take to get my sequencing traces results?

Thanks, Hoppy

My Allele Results
SampleID Marker+ Chr Start End Allele
1964 A1183 ChrY 8488647 8488647 C-
1964 FGC13017 ChrY 8488730 8488730 T-
1964 FGC19673 ChrY 8488523 8488523 C-
1964 M6372 ChrY 8488423 8488423 A-
1964 S11556 ChrY 8488528 8488528 T+
1964 S11557 ChrY 8488663 8488663 C-
1964 SK1518 ChrY 8488420 8488420 C-
1964 SK1620 ChrY 8488523 8488523 C-
1964 Z23821 ChrY 8488523 8488523 C-

kenmunn
03-04-2015, 03:19 PM
Wow...already have my Allele Results from YSEQ for my Z251 Panel. That sure was fast. Let me see if I can post them here as I have NO idea as to what they signify. Does this mean anything yet or is it too early to tell? Any idea how long it will take to get my sequencing traces results?

Thanks, Hoppy

My Allele Results
SampleID Marker+ Chr Start End Allele
1964 A1183 ChrY 8488647 8488647 C-
1964 FGC13017 ChrY 8488730 8488730 T-
1964 FGC19673 ChrY 8488523 8488523 C-
1964 M6372 ChrY 8488423 8488423 A-
1964 S11556 ChrY 8488528 8488528 T+
1964 S11557 ChrY 8488663 8488663 C-
1964 SK1518 ChrY 8488420 8488420 C-
1964 SK1620 ChrY 8488523 8488523 C-
1964 Z23821 ChrY 8488523 8488523 C-

Everything on the panel tested negative except for S11557+. At least now you know many things that you "ain't" but don't yet know who you "are".

Hoppy
03-04-2015, 08:57 PM
Everything on the panel tested negative except for S11557+. At least now you know many things that you "ain't" but don't yet know who you "are".

Aren't I negative for S11557 also and positive for S11556 only? I didn't even notice the "-" and "+" in my results until after you posted kenmunn. So it looks like I need to take one of the BIG tests if I want to progress from this point. Right?

Hoppy

kenmunn
03-04-2015, 09:52 PM
Aren't I negative for S11557 also and positive for S11556 only? I didn't even notice the "-" and "+" in my results until after you posted kenmunn. So it looks like I need to take one of the BIG tests if I want to progress from this point. Right?

Hoppy

Yes. Old eyes sometimes don't work right or old fingers don't type right. Not sure which was to blame in this case.

CoryCrawford
03-05-2015, 03:32 AM
Is that the full panel or just data related to S11556?? If he tested positive for S11556, they should have tested S9294 and 9 others as per the panel description, but I don't see those others listed.

Hoppy...I am guessing you will get additional results soon for more SNPs that will drill you down a little deeper on the Z251 tree, but I am not familiar with the typical timing for the panel testing.

seferhabahir
03-05-2015, 03:58 AM
Is that the full panel or just data related to S11556?? If he tested positive for S11556, they should have tested S9294 and 9 others as per the panel description, but I don't see those others listed.

Hoppy...I am guessing you will get additional results soon for more SNPs that will drill you down a little deeper on the Z251 tree, but I am not familiar with the typical timing for the panel testing.

Yes, that is just the first result for S11556 and all the SNPs that are nearby on the Y chromosome for that primer. You will start getting the other results for SNPs downstream a little bit later (in the next round of tests). Wait a few more days and you will have more results.

donmatthews0910
03-09-2015, 05:32 AM
S9294+ is my terminal SNP. Where to next? 67 markers?

seferhabahir
03-09-2015, 07:08 AM
S9294+ is my terminal SNP. Where to next? 67 markers?

What's your FTDNA kit number? How many markers have you tested? There are three people in the S9294* category in the Z251 project (202983, 208276, 374145) all seeming to be related to James MacKall, Baron of Caithness, b. c. 1545 and all tested out to 111 STR markers. Do you know if you are related to any of those folks or to James MacKall? Since these three are the only other people I know about that are also S9294* it might be a good investment to test out to 67 or to 111 markers to see how close you come to them. I think that would be the thing to try.

Hoppy may also be coming back as a S9294* but since I don't see that he has any other results yet below S11556, I don't know if he will.

Hoppy
03-11-2015, 11:45 PM
I suspect you would also be positive for all the Z17662 through Z17665 as well. If I were a SNP gambling man I might try S19558 which has already been named. The other unnamed SNPs are also fair possibilities for you. If you wish to save up your pennies for the next Big Y sale (or the slightly more expensive Y Prime from FGC which is my personal preference), you would get much more information as well as blazing a trail for the unknown "Hopkins" that hike the same path later. If you do the individual SNP I have found YSeq to be a much more "user friendly" company to test with as well as being less expensive. Good luck on your exploration.

I received the last of my Z251 Panel results and my final branch is S19558. I won't have the money for the Big Y or Y Prime for quite a while due to some more unforeseen expenses. I did a quick search on S19558 before posting here and didn't see much of anything. Any tips on where to look?

Hoppy

seferhabahir
03-12-2015, 12:47 AM
I received the last of my Z251 Panel results and my final branch is S19558. I won't have the money for the Big Y or Y Prime for quite a while due to some more unforeseen expenses. I did a quick search on S19558 before posting here and didn't see much of anything. Any tips on where to look?

Hoppy


S19558 is downstream from Z251 > S11556 > Z17665 and is a parallel branch under Z17665 to Z18108 (that kits 180639 and 220731 seem to have).

The previously mentioned "Hopkins" kit 188401 in Alex Williamson's Big Y tree also tested positive for SNP S19558, and is your one close relative with a GD of 5 at 67 markers. Ken predicted you would turn out to be positive for S19558 and you are. Hard to tell how old S19558 is at this point, but it helps identify your line under Z251. You should write to this other Hopkins and get him to join the Z251 and Subclades project.

donmatthews0910
03-13-2015, 04:39 AM
What's your FTDNA kit number? How many markers have you tested? There are three people in the S9294* category in the Z251 project (202983, 208276, 374145) all seeming to be related to James MacKall, Baron of Caithness, b. c. 1545 and all tested out to 111 STR markers. Do you know if you are related to any of those folks or to James MacKall? Since these three are the only other people I know about that are also S9294* it might be a good investment to test out to 67 or to 111 markers to see how close you come to them. I think that would be the thing to try.

Hoppy may also be coming back as a S9294* but since I don't see that he has any other results yet below S11556, I don't know if he will.


Seferhabahir,
Thanks for your response. I am not S19558+ like Hoppy. My terminal SNP was S9294. I think I might do the 67 markers and join the Z251 project. I have a Scottish grandmother and I can trace her ancestry to 1700 Dalmellington, Scotland. My grandfather was Welsh, but was adopted so his ancestry is a mystery. i don't see many Welsh with Z251. Then again, DNA testing is slow to happen in Wales.

Hoppy
05-03-2015, 03:08 PM
S19558 is downstream from Z251 > S11556 > Z17665 and is a parallel branch under Z17665 to Z18108 (that kits 180639 and 220731 seem to have).

The previously mentioned "Hopkins" kit 188401 in Alex Williamson's Big Y tree also tested positive for SNP S19558, and is your one close relative with a GD of 5 at 67 markers. Ken predicted you would turn out to be positive for S19558 and you are. Hard to tell how old S19558 is at this point, but it helps identify your line under Z251. You should write to this other Hopkins and get him to join the Z251 and Subclades project.

I have emailed the "other" Hopkins 188401 and asked him to join the Z251 and Subclades Project. Hopefully he will join. All of my communication to the other Hopkins has been through his cousin who administers his account. I emailed them both.
Sorry it took almost a month to respond but I have been busy with a project (a boat) at home and haven't been going online much.

Hoppy

seferhabahir
05-03-2015, 05:26 PM
I have emailed the "other" Hopkins 188401 and asked him to join the Z251 and Subclades Project. Hopefully he will join. All of my communication to the other Hopkins has been through his cousin who administers his account. I emailed them both.

Hoppy

He just joined. I put him in D1. Z251>S11556>Z17665>S19558 with you.

Huntergatherer1066
05-03-2015, 05:40 PM
My best friend whose kit I manage is almost certainly Z251, he is a 36/37 match with the aforementioned Burgin and based on their mutual group project Burgin matches others with my friend's surname at higher levels. I'll have my friend tested for Z251 when I can spare the money and then add him to the Z251 project if he is positive. Right now the only Y-DNA testing my friend has done is a Y-DNA37.