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Power77
07-27-2016, 11:09 PM
I'm of Ashkenazi Jewish background and I learned ,after a 23andme DNA test, that my Y-DNA haplogroup is E1a1(E-M33/M44). Now this is weird because I know that this haplogroup is not very common among Jews at all, and its highest frequencies are found in West Africa (and particularly among the Dogon people of Mali). I have almost 0% Sub-Saharan African autosomal ancestry (I only have 0,1% East African [but NOT West African!] "ancestry" according to my "conservative" ancestry painting), yet I tested positive for this (arguably) very "SSA-ish" marker! I'm rather confused right now, because I couldn't find a satisfying source explaining how and when such an haplogroup entered the Ashkenazi Jewish gene pool. Do any of you guys have any ideas and/or theories concerning the presence of E-M44 among Ashkenazi Jews?

kingjohn
07-28-2016, 07:30 AM
maybe this could help
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YExzpSxYgeunVkOGc356-9-ymuFObzQh74Pl2ov13fE/edit?pref=2&pli=1
some clades of e1a1 are old
regards
adam

Captain Nordic
07-28-2016, 09:31 AM
It probably spread out of africa into the near east along with E-V68.

Ignis90
07-28-2016, 09:41 AM
It's present in North Africa as well as other Mediterranean populations (like Sardinians).

evon
07-28-2016, 10:35 AM
My uncle has an Ashkenazi match with E1a1, the match has ancestry from Hungary/Slovakia and the Baltic..

RCO
07-28-2016, 10:49 AM
Another possibility is from Mali to Iberia and to the Jewish Community just like several other Iberian or Northern African groups.

Power77
07-28-2016, 03:54 PM
maybe this could help
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YExzpSxYgeunVkOGc356-9-ymuFObzQh74Pl2ov13fE/edit?pref=2&pli=1
some clades of e1a1 are old
regards
adam

Thanks a lot for the link!
It seems that Ashkenazi E1a1 lines are closest to Lebanese (Druze) ones and that they are anciently connected (dating back to at least 5.0 kya!). I wonder if this marker could have been one of the haplogroups of the Natufians (along with E-M34/M123)...
Only time and ancient DNA samples will tell.

khanabadoshi
07-30-2016, 07:55 AM
Well this is interesting. I just tested my friend and his y-DNA haplogroup is the same.

Maternal Haplogroup

J1c7a

https://you.23andme.com/static/img/reports/haplogroups/result-decor-paternal-color.a5903e38a5d8.svg

Paternal Haplogroup

E1a1






I know maternal lineages are important for Jewish people, can anyone give me any insight? I'm going to see him in a few hours and would like to give some nice explanations. I'll post his results in calculators in some other threads.

wandering_amorite
07-30-2016, 07:59 AM
J1c7a is likely Baltic or Scandinavian. As far as I know, all the attested non-Ashkenazi J1c7a's out there are Swedish, Finnish, and Estonian.

khanabadoshi
07-30-2016, 08:08 AM
J1c7a is likely Baltic or Scandinavian. As far as I know, all the attested non-Ashkenazi J1c7a's out there are Swedish, Finnish, and Estonian.

Thank you! I'm about to add him to the PCA, curious to see how he places relative to yourself!

evon
07-30-2016, 10:29 AM
J1c7a is likely Baltic or Scandinavian. As far as I know, all the attested non-Ashkenazi J1c7a's out there are Swedish, Finnish, and Estonian.

http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_by_group/j1c7_genbank_sequences.htm Some from Iran, Hungary, Ukraine etc..

Little bit
07-30-2016, 11:49 AM
There are a couple of subclades of J1c7a that are listed as Ashkenazi mtdna's:


Haplogroup J comprises 7% of the Ashkenazi control-region database. Around 72% of these can be assigned to J1c, now thought to have arisen within Late Glacial Europe30, and 19% belong to J1b1a1, also restricted to Europe. Thus >90% of the Ashkenazi J lineages have a European origin, with ~7% (J1b and J2b) less clearly associated. Many have a probable west/central European source, despite (like H) being most frequent in eastern Ashkenazim. The four Ashkenazi J mitogenomes, in J1c5, J1c7a1a and J1c7d, once again show a striking pattern of Mediterranean, west and central European lineages enclosing Ashkenazi/east European ones (Fig. 9).
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131008/ncomms3543/full/ncomms3543.html

Run the raw data through James Lick's analysis tool to see if he can be classified further. At 23andme, there was a population of non Ashkenazi J1c7a's from Germany/Eastern Europe/Scandinavia and Ashkenazi J1c7a's from Eastern European countries. Jim Logan has some spreadsheets in Group J from FTDNA, and J1c7a is most prevalent in 1.) Scandinavian countries (Sweden was highest); 2.) Eastern Europe (Evenly distributed except Latvia, Siberia, and Kazakhstan); 3.) Central Europe (Germany was highest.) I would guess that J1c7a was absorbed into the Ashkenazi population in Central/Eastern Europe and given the lower numbers, probably in historically recent times. J1c7a is absent in the Mediterranean, with only one sample from Italy of J1c7. Is this person tested at FTDNA or somewhere else? If FTDNA FMS, they are behind on the Phylotree so run the Fasta file through the James Lick analysis tool but matches should show which population he matches. My J1c3i FMS, listed only as J1c3 by FTDNA, but my matches line up with my mitochondrial ancestress very well.

khanabadoshi
07-30-2016, 10:32 PM
There are a couple of subclades of J1c7a that are listed as Ashkenazi mtdna's:


http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131008/ncomms3543/full/ncomms3543.html

Run the raw data through James Lick's analysis tool to see if he can be classified further. At 23andme, there was a population of non Ashkenazi J1c7a's from Germany/Eastern Europe/Scandinavia and Ashkenazi J1c7a's from Eastern European countries. Jim Logan has some spreadsheets in Group J from FTDNA, and J1c7a is most prevalent in 1.) Scandinavian countries (Sweden was highest); 2.) Eastern Europe (Evenly distributed except Latvia, Siberia, and Kazakhstan); 3.) Central Europe (Germany was highest.) I would guess that J1c7a was absorbed into the Ashkenazi population in Central/Eastern Europe and given the lower numbers, probably in historically recent times. J1c7a is absent in the Mediterranean, with only one sample from Italy of J1c7. Is this person tested at FTDNA or somewhere else? If FTDNA FMS, they are behind on the Phylotree so run the Fasta file through the James Lick analysis tool but matches should show which population he matches. My J1c3i FMS, listed only as J1c3 by FTDNA, but my matches line up with my mitochondrial ancestress very well.


This is his James Lick results:

Markers found (shown as differences to rCRS):

HVR2: 73G 228A 263G 295T 489C
CR: 750G 1438G 2706G 3010A 4216C 4769G 6464A 6554T 7028T 8860G 10398G 11251G 11719A 12127A 12612G 13681G 13708A 14766T 14798C 15452A
HVR1: 16069T 16092C 16126C 16261T
IMPORTANT NOTE: The above marker list is almost certainly incomplete due to limitations of genotyping technology and is not comparable to mtDNA sequencing results. It should not be used with services or tools that expect sequencing results, such as mitosearch.

Best mtDNA Haplogroup Matches:
1) J1c7a
Defining Markers for haplogroup J1c7a:
HVR2: 73G (185A) (228A) 263G 295T 462T 489C
CR: 750G 1438G 2706G 3010A 4216C 4769G 6464A 6554T 7028T 8860G 10398G 11251G 11719A 12127A 12612G 13681G 13708A 14766T 14798C 15326G 15452A
HVR1: 16069T (16092C) 16126C 16261T
Marker path from rCRS to haplogroup J1c7a:
H2a2a1(rCRS) ⇨ 263G ⇨ H2a2a ⇨ 8860G 15326G ⇨ H2a2 ⇨ 750G ⇨ H2a ⇨ 4769G ⇨ H2 ⇨ 1438G ⇨ H ⇨ 2706G 7028T ⇨ HV ⇨ 14766T ⇨ R0 ⇨ 73G 11719A ⇨ R ⇨ 4216C ⇨ R2'JT ⇨ 11251G 15452A 16126C ⇨ JT ⇨ 295T 489C 10398G 12612G 13708A 16069T ⇨ J ⇨ 462T 3010A ⇨ J1 ⇨ (185A) (228A) 14798C ⇨ J1c ⇨ 16261T ⇨ J1c(C16261T) ⇨ 6554T 12127A (16092C) ⇨ J1c7 ⇨ 6464A 13681G ⇨ J1c7a
Imperfect Match. Your results contained differences with this haplogroup:
Matches(29): 73G (228A) 263G 295T 489C 750G 1438G 2706G 3010A 4216C 4769G 6464A 6554T 7028T 8860G 10398G 11251G 11719A 12127A 12612G 13681G 13708A 14766T 14798C 15452A 16069T (16092C) 16126C 16261T
Untested(2): 185 462 15326

2) J1c7
Defining Markers for haplogroup J1c7:
HVR2: 73G (185A) (228A) 263G 295T 462T 489C
CR: 750G 1438G 2706G 3010A 4216C 4769G 6554T 7028T 8860G 10398G 11251G 11719A 12127A 12612G 13708A 14766T 14798C 15326G 15452A
HVR1: 16069T (16092C) 16126C 16261T
Marker path from rCRS to haplogroup J1c7 (plus extra markers):
H2a2a1(rCRS) ⇨ 263G ⇨ H2a2a ⇨ 8860G 15326G ⇨ H2a2 ⇨ 750G ⇨ H2a ⇨ 4769G ⇨ H2 ⇨ 1438G ⇨ H ⇨ 2706G 7028T ⇨ HV ⇨ 14766T ⇨ R0 ⇨ 73G 11719A ⇨ R ⇨ 4216C ⇨ R2'JT ⇨ 11251G 15452A 16126C ⇨ JT ⇨ 295T 489C 10398G 12612G 13708A 16069T ⇨ J ⇨ 462T 3010A ⇨ J1 ⇨ (185A) (228A) 14798C ⇨ J1c ⇨ 16261T ⇨ J1c(C16261T) ⇨ 6554T 12127A (16092C) ⇨ J1c7 ⇨ 6464A 13681G
Imperfect Match. Your results contained differences with this haplogroup:
Matches(27): 73G (228A) 263G 295T 489C 750G 1438G 2706G 3010A 4216C 4769G 6554T 7028T 8860G 10398G 11251G 11719A 12127A 12612G 13708A 14766T 14798C 15452A 16069T (16092C) 16126C 16261T
Extras(2): 6464A 13681G
Untested(2): 185 462 15326

3) J1c(C16261T)
Defining Markers for haplogroup J1c(C16261T):
HVR2: 73G (185A) (228A) 263G 295T 462T 489C
CR: 750G 1438G 2706G 3010A 4216C 4769G 7028T 8860G 10398G 11251G 11719A 12612G 13708A 14766T 14798C 15326G 15452A
HVR1: 16069T 16126C 16261T
Marker path from rCRS to haplogroup J1c(C16261T) (plus extra markers):
H2a2a1(rCRS) ⇨ 263G ⇨ H2a2a ⇨ 8860G 15326G ⇨ H2a2 ⇨ 750G ⇨ H2a ⇨ 4769G ⇨ H2 ⇨ 1438G ⇨ H ⇨ 2706G 7028T ⇨ HV ⇨ 14766T ⇨ R0 ⇨ 73G 11719A ⇨ R ⇨ 4216C ⇨ R2'JT ⇨ 11251G 15452A 16126C ⇨ JT ⇨ 295T 489C 10398G 12612G 13708A 16069T ⇨ J ⇨ 462T 3010A ⇨ J1 ⇨ (185A) (228A) 14798C ⇨ J1c ⇨ 16261T ⇨ J1c(C16261T) ⇨ 6464A 6554T 12127A 13681G 16092C
Imperfect Match. Your results contained differences with this haplogroup:
Matches(24): 73G (228A) 263G 295T 489C 750G 1438G 2706G 3010A 4216C 4769G 7028T 8860G 10398G 11251G 11719A 12612G 13708A 14766T 14798C 15452A 16069T 16126C 16261T
Extras(5): 6464A 6554T 12127A 13681G 16092C
Untested(2): 185 462 15326

Little bit
07-31-2016, 11:15 AM
Several untested snps - is that 23andme v4 results? 23andme dropped the marker 185 marker from this chip when it switched to v4, but I only mention it to identify the chip. If the friend wants to know which group of J1c7a's he matches, he will have to take FTDNA's full mitochondrial sequence test, run his fasta file through the James Lick tool, and see who he matches. 23andme's mtdna test is great for basic info but not enough to make a final decision on subclade or provide matching.

khanabadoshi
07-31-2016, 12:27 PM
Several untested snps - is that 23andme v4 results? 23andme dropped the marker 185 marker from this chip when it switched to v4, but I only mention it to identify the chip. If the friend wants to know which group of J1c7a's he matches, he will have to take FTDNA's full mitochondrial sequence test, run his fasta file through the James Lick tool, and see who he matches. 23andme's mtdna test is great for basic info but not enough to make a final decision on subclade or provide matching.

Yeah, unfortunately it's a 23andMe v4 chip.

johnthe
12-02-2018, 03:33 PM
It's possible this entered the Ashkenazi Jewish gene pool when Africans migrated via trade routes into the Levant region