L513 charts

[Jon]

Hi All,

I wondered if anyone had seen Larry Walker's charts over on FB (L21 group). Basically just visual representations of L21 subclades - and he did one of L513 subclades as well.

Again, it strikes me the extent to which L513 is split so evenly between Scotland and Ireland. This is pretty much unique - most other L21 groups have (even if only slight) a tendency to one or the other, or indeed to Wales or England.

Given its age, and the fact that most subclades are specific to one area of the isles (e.g. L193 to Scotland), I assume the following:

1. L513 must have come into Scotland and Ireland at around the same time, where the downstream clades developed simultaneously;

2. L513 in the west of Scotland might represent original Gaelic-speakers in Scotland, who may have been part of Dalriada.

3. L513 must originally have come up from the continent; possibly northern France. Which means that some L513 folks with isles heritage might have got there via later migrations from the northern European continent.

I know there's been much speculation - but if anyone can enlighten me on who these folks might have been, in Scotland and Ireland at the same time, I'd appreciate it.

[TigerMW]

You are talking about Walker's time-line charts from YFull?

http://rangebiome.org/Timeline-DF1.jpg

It seems a little strange that they have S6365 as younger than S5668. S5668 has a couple of equivalents while S6365 doesn't.

[TigerMW]

You are talking about Walker's time-line charts from YFull?

http://rangebiome.org/Timeline-DF1.jpg

It seems a little strange that they have S6365 as younger than S5668. S5668 has a couple of equivalents while S6365 doesn't.

Oh yes, this is an example of a problem that YFull has and most do who do SNP counting.

They count from the modern day back in time. However, that becomes a problem at branch points in many cases because SNPs don't really happen at average rates.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-DF1/

Check the TMRCA for the direct child of DF1/L513 labels S5668. It's 4000 ybp. Check TMRCA for S6365. It's at 3600 ybp so YFull has S6365 at 400 years younger than S5668.

How can that be? There are no equivalents in the S6365 block so the S6365 is just one SNP younger than DF1/L513.
Meanwhile S5668 has two equivalents so it is three SNPs younger than DF1/L513.

YFull and everybody needs to come up with a rational method of adjusting average mutation rates at every branch point. I think we need to use best fit simulation software.