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Little bit
10-30-2012, 03:54 PM
So, on my other thread in regards to Cullen's subclade predictor, I posted about my quest to discover my husband's Y lineage:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?282-Jim-Cullen-s-Subclade-predictor

L226+ is confirmed and so here is where I am in this quest:

Irish III, terminal snp L226, is the Y signature of the Gaelic Dalcassian Families, based primarily around Counties Clare, Tipperary, and Limerick. The tell-tale markers for Irish III are:
DYS459= 8,9
DYS464= 13,13,15,17
DYS439= 11
http://www.jogg.info/51/files/Wright.pdf

My husband's eldest paternal ancestor is said to have been from County Limerick. So, right place.

The surnames of Irish III are listed here, most notable to me is Brian Boru, High King of Ireland 941–23 April 1014. Brian belonged to the Dál gCais (or Dalcassians), based in the area now known as County Clare. Brian was said to be in his 88th year when he fell in the Battle of Clontarf in 1014, the battle which finally destroyed the power of the Norseman:
http://www.irishtype3dna.org/surnames.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Clontarf

My husband's surname is not among the Dalcassian surnames. In fact, Frawley, is ultimately descended from Gaelic O’Fearghail and is a variant of Farrell, O’Farrelly, etc. See the Farrell surname project from FTDNA, which my husband is a part of:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/FARRELL%20DNA%20Project/

O’Fearghail males were princes of Annaly north of Irish III's homeland. This family was based at Longford, which was originally called Longphort Ui Fhearghail ( O’Farrell’s fortress ). Feargal was King of Conmacne and was also slain at the battle of Clontarf in 1014. Looking at the Y DNA classic chart of the Farrell project, there are only 2 clear Irish III's, and both happen to be the only 2 Frawley's. He lists Ireland but I don't know which county. So, for my husband, right county for L226...but most likely wrong surname for L226. It seems to me that Farrell's are overwhelmingly not L226.

I'm guessing an NPE, seemingly affecting the Frawley's within the Farrell surname lineage. But when? We know that Feargal fought, and died alongside Brian Boru at the battle of Clontarf. Could a Dalcassian male have taken a Ui Fhearghail wife's surname? Did a Ui Fhearghail adopt a Dalcassian prince in some kind of post battle power play? Or some ordinary, more recent, NPE? The other Frawley carries the tell-tale DYS459 and DYS464 results but differs in enough places to show their common ancestor was quite a long time ago. My husband's only 37 marker match at FTDNA is actually a WAMH, 4 step, who somehow tests L226+ (still don't understand how that all worked out). His surname doesn't seem to match either, but is from Tipperary.

So here's what I've got so far. Still trying to get accepted into the L226 FTDNA project...don't know what is taking so long? I'd be interested in hearing from other L226's to compare notes or anyone with further insight. Many thanks to Clan_Heber, celtic genealogist for pointing me in the right direction for researching this mystery. :)

Little bit
11-12-2012, 09:30 PM
Update: FTDNA is offering a sale until 12/31/12 so I went ahead and ordered the upgrade to 67 markers. I have a specific reason for doing this: I was engaging in a very interesting thread with w/Robert Casey who gave me some very useful hints about the 2 Frawley's at FTDNA. The other Frawley shares some off-modal mutations w/my husband (385a >= 12 and 449 >= 30) but has the off modal 439=12, whereas my husband has the modal 439=11. Marker 439 appears to be very important for L226's as Robert Casey informed me:

...the marker 439 >= 12 is very important. This is the L21 modal value that only around 20 % of L226 submissions have. I interpret this to mean that 439 >= 12 is an early branch of L226 and that most of L226 are 439 <= 11 which is big fork in the genetic descendant tree for L226.

Robert Casey advised I upgrade to 67 markers to test 2 more markers which may finally determine if the 2 Frawley's are related: 534 >= 16 and 531 >= 12. So, we'll see...will update when I know. Here's a link to the other thread which went a little off topic, but I originally posted to it because I talked my grandfather into taking the 37 marker test and his line is supposed to be from Wales :angel::
R1b-L371 / S300 Wales
http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=501

Dubhthach
11-13-2012, 10:17 AM
Well like every surname in Ireland there are often several independent occurences. Often what happens is that the "most famous" one tends to eclipse the other ones when it comes to popular imagination. Here's what Woulfe says in his 1923 book:


Ó FEARGHAILE—I—O Farrialla, O Ferralla, Farrelly, Frawley, Farrell, &c.; 'descendant of Fearghal'; a variant of Ó Fearghail, which see; sometimes metathesised to Ó Freaghaile, anglicised Frawley.


Ó FEARGHAIL—I—O Ferrall, O'Farrell, Farrell, Ferrall, Farrahill, Frahill, Fraul; 'descendant of Fearghal' (super-valour); the name of several distinct families, of which the best known are the O'Farrells of Annaly, in the present Co. Longford, of which they were for many centuries the ruling race. The head of the family resided at the town of Longford, which was formerly known as Longphort Ui Fhearghail, or O'Farrell's fortress. In later times, the O'Farrells divided into two great branches, the heads of which were known respectively as O'Farrell Boy, the yellow O'Farrell, and O'Farrell Bane, the fair O'Farrell. The O'Farrells maintained their independence as a clan down to the year 1565, when Annaly was reduced to shire ground by the lord-deputy, Sir Henry Sidney. Though suffering severely from the plantation schemes of James I, the O'Farrells were able to take a prominent part in all the political and military movements of the 17th century, and many of them were afterwards distinguished officers in the Irish brigades in the service of France. This family is now very numerous. Other families of this name were seated in Wicklow and Tyrone. The name is also written Ó Fearghaile and Ó Firghil, which see, and sometimes, by the aspiration of the initial f, changed into Ó hEarghail, Ó hEarghaile, which see.


The Irish Times surname search page has following:



frawley households in each county in the Primary Valuation property survey of 1847-64.

Click on a county name for a parish breakdown of the number of households,
and an all-Ireland parish map (paying).
Clare 75
Cork 10
Kerry 3
Limerick 56
Limerick city 4
Tipperary 9
Waterford 1



As you can see vast bulk are in Clare and Limerick which of course form the core of the Kingdom of Thomond (Tuaidh Mhumha = North Munster).

Little bit
11-16-2012, 08:09 PM
Very nice, thank you Dubhthach for this useful information. If the Frawley's are differentiated enough by 439 and the 2 other marker's not working out, than clearly there is more to the story. I still find it intriguing that both Frawley's would be the only 2 to carry the tell-tale L226 markers in the surname project, DYS459= 8,9, DYS464= 13,13,15,17. Judging by the few L226's I find in the group's I've joined, it seems not to be overly common branch and Frawley seems uncommon as a surname, or at least as a variant of Farrell. Either way, I can see why so many people get into researching their Y line. I sat on the sidelines for a long time, wondering what was so fascinating...now I know. :)

MikeWhalen
11-17-2012, 10:04 PM
Dub rules when it comes to great info on Irish history and such!

Mike

Little bit
11-18-2012, 04:23 PM
Dub rules when it comes to great info on Irish history and such!

Good to know, I may try and mine him for data as the results come in. To see how uncommon Frawley is, I plugged it into Ancestry.com's American Surname tool:
http://www.americansurnames.us/surname/frawley

----------------------------------------Total/Rank/Frequency%/Per million people
United States (Current snapshot) 3,118 9567 0.001 12

Compare to Farrell:
http://www.americansurnames.us/surname/FARRELL

Interesting that Wisconsin is one of the top states for frequency of Frawley - my husband's paternal ancestors settled in the Milwaukee area. Even in Ireland, Frawley is dwarfed by Farrelly and Farrell:
Frawley
http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/index.cfm?fuseaction=Go.&Surname=Frawley&UserID=
Farrelly
http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/index.cfm?fuseaction=Go.&Surname=Farrelly&UserID=
Farrell:
http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/index.cfm?fuseaction=Go.&Surname=Farrell&UserID=

Little bit
11-30-2012, 01:07 PM
OK, Panel 4 (38-47) came in last night. No match. The other Frawley is 531 >= 12 and my husband is 531 >= 11. With only 1 four step match at 37 markers, it looks like my husband/son are on their own in terms of matches. The upside, if there is one, is 11 is modal for L226.

Little bit
12-04-2012, 12:26 PM
No match w/the other Frawley. I was testing to see if they shared the off-modal 534 >= 16 and 531 >= 12. My husband is 534 >= 15 and 531 >= 11.

12 matches at 67 markers:
1 5 step - same person as the 37 marker match, just one more step away (he was a 4 step match at 37)
2 6 step matches
9 7 step matches

If I hadn't already snp tested L226 it would be obvious I should: 5 of the 12 are L226. 2 are "private" and 5 are unassigned.

TigerMW
04-18-2013, 04:16 PM
The SNP L226 seems to very nicely fit what was the Irish III haplotype modal. Key off-modal STRs are DYS459=8,9 DYS439<=11 DYS464a,b=13,13 DYS557<=15.

The project is at www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L226_Project/

One theory is that these people are associated with the Dalcassian clans of the Munster area of Ireland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_gCais

IrishTypeIII
05-03-2013, 04:26 AM
I have only just become aware of this forum because of a chance mention today by Alex Williamson. I really missed the earlier forum that fell off the cliff 12 months ago.

Anyway, I run the Irish Type III website (http://www.irishtype3dna.org/), and am coordinator of the R-L226 project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L226_Project/default.aspx) at FTDNA so glad to be here. If I can be any help with info on this cluster, please post here.

Regards, Dennis Wright

TigerMW
05-03-2013, 07:13 AM
I have only just become aware of this forum because of a chance mention today by Alex Williamson. I really missed the earlier forum that fell off the cliff 12 months ago.

Anyway, I run the Irish Type III website (http://www.irishtype3dna.org/), and am coordinator of the R-L226 project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L226_Project/default.aspx) at FTDNA so glad to be here. If I can be any help with info on this cluster, please post here.

Regards, Dennis Wright

Thanks for joining, Dennis. If and when you have any new news on L226 please post it.

I would have thought we might have found a couple of potential SNPs downstream of L226 by now. Are there any prospects? Is L226 participating in any WTY's or Geno 2.0 testing with any luck?

P.S. You can subscribe to this thread. Just go to "Thread tools" and "Subscribe to this thread" then select from the drop down box "instant notification by email" and then click on "add subscription."

rms2
05-03-2013, 11:18 AM
I hesitate to mention this, since it is very much up in the air, but I don't have much else to talk about this morning, so . . .

When I was Ireland in late March, I recruited a guy for a 12-marker y-dna test. The surname is Hogan, and his family has lived in the Mountshannon, County Clare, area for as long as he knows. I noticed in the Hogan Y-DNA Project at World Families, http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/hogan/results, there is a large group that is Irish Type III, i.e., L226+.

Of course, I don't know how my friend is going to come out, and he just finally mailed his kit in this past Tuesday, but I'm hoping for something good eventually, like a match to the Irish Type III Hogan group. Naturally, we won't be able to tell for sure with just 12 markers, but I figured if he at least gets into the M269 prediction ballpark, with perhaps a 12-marker match to one or more of the Type III Hogans, that's a start, and we can go from there.

We'll see. Fingers crossed!

Dubhthach
05-03-2013, 04:42 PM
There are a number of surnames that can be anglisced as Hogan, one of them unsurprising belongs to the Dál gCais.


Ó hÓGÁIN—I—O Hogaine, O Hogane, O Hogan, Hogan; 'descendant of Ógán' (diminutive of óg, young); the name (1) of a Dalcassian family who derive their descent from Coscrach, uncle of Brian Boru, and were seated at Ardcrony, about four miles to the north of Nenagh, in Co. Tipperary; and (2) of a family of Corca Laoighdhe, in the south-west of Co. Cork; now very common in Munster, especially in Tipperary, Limerick, Clare and Cork. See Ó hÁgáin, which is the Ulster form of this surname.

rms2
05-03-2013, 07:14 PM
There are a number of surnames that can be anglisced as Hogan, one of them unsurprising belongs to the Dál gCais.

It seemed like it took forever for him to receive his kit from FTDNA, and then it took awhile for him to collect the sample and finally mail it in. FTDNA still hasn't received it, at least according to my R-L21 Plus Project GAP.

This isn't a hobby for the impatient, but I'm in it anyway. :\

IrishTypeIII
05-06-2013, 06:43 AM
If we look at the old Irish Pedigrees, we find that the surnames of O'Brien, Kennedy, Hogan, Casey, Crowe (McEncrowe) and McCraw (McGraw, McCrae) all come from a common ancestor and hence it is not surprising that L226+ is found in many with these surnames. As you say, 12 markers are not sufficient to seperate out Irish Type III, although DYS439 is commonly 11 for this cluster. Several Hogans are also DYS391=10. Does your Hogan have either of these values?

The individual L226 SNP test is not that expensive, and coming from Clare, he is most likely to be L226+. If he does take this test, please have him join the R-L226 FTDNA project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L226_Project/default.aspx).

rms2
05-06-2013, 11:00 AM
If we look at the old Irish Pedigrees, we find that the surnames of O'Brien, Kennedy, Hogan, Casey, Crowe (McEncrowe) and McCraw (McGraw, McCrae) all come from a common ancestor and hence it is not surprising that L226+ is found in many with these surnames. As you say, 12 markers are not sufficient to seperate out Irish Type III, although DYS439 is commonly 11 for this cluster. Several Hogans are also DYS391=10. Does your Hogan have either of these values?

The individual L226 SNP test is not that expensive, and coming from Clare, he is most likely to be L226+. If he does take this test, please have him join the R-L226 FTDNA project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L226_Project/default.aspx).

He just mailed in his kit last Tuesday, so we don't have any results at all yet. I was planning on testing him for L21 if he gets at least an R-M269 prediction, but if he is anywhere close to the Type III Hogans, I'll go for broke and test him for L226. If he gets a positive result, I'll definitely have him join the R-L226 Project (if it's okay with him).

I was glancing through my copy of Koch's An Atlas for Celtic Studies (http://www.amazon.com/Atlas-Celtic-Studies-Archaeology-Publications/dp/184217309X), and I noticed on a map of early medieval Ireland he has the term "Dal Cais" (properly accented, of course) centered just southwest of the village of Killeloe in County Clare, and that is not at all far from where my friend is from. I'm hoping he is Irish Type III, but we'll see.

Dubhthach
05-06-2013, 12:54 PM
He just mailed in his kit last Tuesday, so we don't have any results at all yet. I was planning on testing him for L21 if he gets at least an R-M269 prediction, but if he is anywhere close to the Type III Hogans, I'll go for broke and test him for L226. If he gets a positive result, I'll definitely have him join the R-L226 Project (if it's okay with him).

I was glancing through my copy of Koch's An Atlas for Celtic Studies (http://www.amazon.com/Atlas-Celtic-Studies-Archaeology-Publications/dp/184217309X), and I noticed on a map of early medieval Ireland he has the term "Dal Cais" (properly accented, of course) centered just southwest of the village of Killeloe in County Clare, and that is not at all far from where my friend is from. I'm hoping he is Irish Type III, but we'll see.

Basically the Dál gCais ruled Tuadh-mhumhain (North Munster -- reformed spelling: Tuamhain) or as it's known in English Thomond. The diocese of Killaloe basically represents the main area of Uí Bhriain (Dál gCais) control during the 12th century:

420

The church hill in Killaloe was the site of "Ceann Coradh" (Kincora) the palace of Brian Boru, it would be burnt a number of times over next 100 years before been finally destroyed by Tairrdelbach Ua Conchobair (King of Connacht -- m222?) and future High-King of Ireland.

Nearby there is a wooded ringfort site known as Béal Ború (on clare side of river) where Brian was supposedly born.

-Paul
(DF41+)

rms2
05-06-2013, 06:52 PM
Basically the Dál gCais ruled Tuadh-mhumhain (North Munster -- reformed spelling: Tuamhain) or as it's known in English Thomond. The diocese of Killaloe basically represents the main area of Uí Bhriain (Dál gCais) control during the 12th century:

420

The church hill in Killaloe was the site of "Ceann Coradh" (Kincora) the palace of Brian Boru, it would be burnt a number of times over next 100 years before been finally destroyed by Tairrdelbach Ua Conchobair (King of Connacht -- m222?) and future High-King of Ireland.

Nearby there is a wooded ringfort site known as Béal Ború (on clare side of river) where Brian was supposedly born.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Very interesting, Paul. Thanks for the information. B)

It will be really cool for my friend if he turns out to be L226+ and has that Dál gCais connection.

Dubhthach
05-07-2013, 09:12 AM
Very interesting, Paul. Thanks for the information. B)

It will be really cool for my friend if he turns out to be L226+ and has that Dál gCais connection.

In general the Catholic dicoeses here in Ireland still follow the general layout that was brought in at the Synods of Ráth Breasail (1111) and Kells (1152), obviously there have been some mergers/"suppresions" over the last 900 years, but by and large the basic diocean structure is the same.

These dioceses in turn reflect political considerations on the ground. Generally been based around "sub-kingdoms" etc.

http://www.catholicbishops.ie/wp-content/uploads/images/stories/Map/ibc.png

So for example we can see the boundaries of the "Northern Uí Néill" during the 12th century reflected in boundaries of Raphoe and Derry. After 12th century the O'Neill family (Ó Néill -- different from Uí Néill) extended their territories of Tír Eoghain (The land of Eoghan son of Niall) southwards taking territorty from the Oirialla (Airghialla), and thus modern county "Tyrone" is spilt between dioceses of Derry and Armagh. Likewise Inishowen which is now in county Donegal due to it's conquest in the 14th century by the O'Doherty's is however not part of Diocese of Raphoe (Tír Chonaill -- The land of Conall son of Niall -- brother of Eoghan).

The Oirialla (Airghialla) territory is basically spilt between the dioceses of Clogher and Armagh, meanwhile the neighbouring diocese of Kilmore represents Bréifne more or less. Likewise the Diocese of Meath is considerably larger then modern "County of Meath" -- it represents the "Southern Uí Néill" and basically the core of the "lost province" of Meath.

-Paul
(DF41+)

MikeWhalen
05-07-2013, 06:49 PM
you always have the coolest info Dubh...thx

Mike

rms2
05-07-2013, 11:10 PM
Well, it certainly looks like my friend comes from the area of the Dál gCais, and since there are others of his surname who are Irish Type III, I have high hopes for him. Of course, I hesitate to get my hopes up prematurely, and I'm not going to mention any of this to him unless and until it becomes a reality. One never knows with y-dna testing until the fat lady in the lab coat sings.

rms2
05-09-2013, 10:53 PM
Mr. Hogan's kit arrived at FTDNA in Houston today. It should go to the lab with next Wednesday's lab batch. I'm relieved it finally arrived.

RobertCasey
05-19-2013, 03:57 AM
Thanks for joining, Dennis. If and when you have any new news on L226 please post it.

I would have thought we might have found a couple of potential SNPs downstream of L226 by now. Are there any prospects? Is L226 participating in any WTY's or Geno 2.0 testing with any luck?

P.S. You can subscribe to this thread. Just go to "Thread tools" and "Subscribe to this thread" then select from the drop down box "instant notification by email" and then click on "add subscription."

I just sent in my Nat Geo kit a couple of days ago, so I think I am the first L226 to date. Since my South Carolina Casey cluster has many L226 off modal mutations, maybe we will luck out and get a new SNP just below or above L226.

TigerMW
05-21-2013, 11:06 PM
I just sent in my Nat Geo kit a couple of days ago, so I think I am the first L226 to date. Since my South Carolina Casey cluster has many L226 off modal mutations, maybe we will luck out and get a new SNP just below or above L226.

Very good. We need an SNP or two to divide up L226 a bit.

rms2
06-07-2013, 07:59 AM
The 12-marker results for Hogan, kit 284650, are in. He has an R-M269 prediction and has 439=11, as mentioned above.

13 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 11 13 13 29

http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/hogan/results

rms2
06-07-2013, 11:28 AM
The 12-marker results for Hogan, kit 284650, are in. He has an R-M269 prediction and has 439=11, as mentioned above.

13 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 11 13 13 29

http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/hogan/results

Hogan is close to Lineage I in the Hogan Project, which is L226+. The only difference is that he has 15 at 385b, where most of them have 14. He shares their 439=11.

I wish he had more markers!

He matches kit N20645 in the Hogan Project exactly, and he is in the "Possible Lineage I" category.

Opinions regarding L226?

jdean
06-07-2013, 12:12 PM
Hogan is close to Lineage I in the Hogan Project, which is L226+. The only difference is that he has 15 at 385b, where most of them have 14. He shares their 439=11.

I wish he had more markers!

He matches kit N20645 in the Hogan Project exactly, and he is in the "Possible Lineage I" category.

Opinions regarding L226?

He could do with more markers really but I suppose an L226+ could serve as a proxy if all he want's to do is prove a connection with Lineage I, is there a paper trail connection ?

When I first dipped my toe into DNA, with a 12 loci test, my only match in the DNA project had 11-14 at 385 against my 11-15. I was told it was unlikely that this was a real match but now we have a GD of 4 off at 67 : )

rms2
06-07-2013, 03:32 PM
He could do with more markers really but I suppose an L226+ could serve as a proxy if all he want's to do is prove a connection with Lineage I, is there a paper trail connection ?

When I first dipped my toe into DNA, with a 12 loci test, my only match in the DNA project had 11-14 at 385 against my 11-15. I was told it was unlikely that this was a real match but now we have a GD of 4 off at 67 : )

This is a guy I recruited in Ireland. I'm not sure how interested he really is. The curiosity is more mine.

I think he is probably L226+, but I'm not sure he'll be willing to upgrade to more markers to find out by means of the haplotype.

jdean
06-07-2013, 04:24 PM
This is a guy I recruited in Ireland. I'm not sure how interested he really is. The curiosity is more mine.

I think he is probably L226+, but I'm not sure he'll be willing to upgrade to more markers to find out by means of the haplotype.

Could be worth tapping up the Hogan project, I don't get the impression they are flush with born and bred Irishmen.

rms2
06-07-2013, 11:14 PM
Could be worth tapping up the Hogan project, I don't get the impression they are flush with born and bred Irishmen.

That's a good idea.

rms2
06-08-2013, 12:50 AM
I emailed my friend Mr. Hogan in Ireland and informed of his results and of my opinion (I think he is probably Irish Type III/L226+). I have asked him to join the Ireland Project and the Hogan Project.

TigerMW
06-08-2013, 02:43 AM
I emailed my friend Mr. Hogan in Ireland and informed of his results and of my opinion (I think he is probably Irish Type III/L226+). I have asked him to join the Ireland Project and the Hogan Project.

This is a good initiative you've undertaken. If all of us who could we visit the Old World and bring back a couple of new recruits/tests we'd find out a thing or two for sure.

When are you going to France?

rms2
06-08-2013, 12:53 PM
This is a good initiative you've undertaken. If all of us who could we visit the Old World and bring back a couple of new recruits/tests we'd find out a thing or two for sure.

When are you going to France?

LOL! I would like to go to France, especially Brittany, but that will have to wait, I'm afraid. I've about got the wife talked into a trip to Wales next year. When I go, if I get to go, I will go armed with some y-dna test kits. I've already told my wife I will spend money on them rather than souvenirs. Welsh cheek swab samples will be my souvenirs. B)

rms2
06-09-2013, 02:16 AM
Mr. Hogan has joined the Hogan DNA Project and has submitted a request to join the Ireland DNA Project.

He has an L226 test on order. I have his permission to join him to the R-L226 Irish Type III Project if he gets an L226+ result. B)

IrishTypeIII
06-09-2013, 01:47 PM
Mr. Hogan has joined the Hogan DNA Project and has submitted a request to join the Ireland DNA Project.

He has an L226 test on order. I have his permission to join him to the R-L226 Irish Type III Project if he gets an L226+ result. B)

Please have him join the R-L226 project NOW! As you are, I am sure he will be L226+ and I put those that have ordered L226 SNP test into a 'pending' group until their result comes in.
Project is at Click here. (http://www.familytreedna.com/group-join-request.aspx?group=R-L226&vGroup=R-L226_Project)

RobertCasey
06-09-2013, 03:31 PM
Dennis, we could use a second Full Genomes test under L226 to determine which SNPs are unique to L226 and unique between two tests. Could you send an email to the L226 project members to see if there is any interest in a second person testing. Also, I have ordered the first L226 Nat Geo test for L226 but do not think multiple Nat Geo tests would be much good compared to a second Full Genomes test while it is still $200 off.

rms2
06-09-2013, 05:22 PM
Please have him join the R-L226 project NOW! As you are, I am sure he will be L226+ and I put those that have ordered L226 SNP test into a 'pending' group until their result comes in.
Project is at Click here. (http://www.familytreedna.com/group-join-request.aspx?group=R-L226&vGroup=R-L226_Project)

I just sent off the join request on Mr. Hogan's behalf. Thanks for the invitation. B)

jdean
06-09-2013, 06:29 PM
Looking forward to the results, best of luck to your friend : )

rms2
06-09-2013, 06:41 PM
Looking forward to the results, best of luck to your friend : )

Thanks! I am, too.

I am really hoping he is L226+. Judging from the most recent communication from him, I think that kind of result could really spark his interest and lead to some enthusiasm for this hobby.

It might even lead to some more y-dna tests from that part of County Clare.

rms2
06-09-2013, 09:59 PM
I just noticed that it is now possible to purchase an upgrade from 12 to 25 markers for just $49.

Twenty five markers are enough to reveal the Irish Type III haplotype.

IrishTypeIII
06-10-2013, 02:59 AM
Dennis, we could use a second Full Genomes test under L226 to determine which SNPs are unique to L226 and unique between two tests. Could you send an email to the L226 project members to see if there is any interest in a second person testing. Also, I have ordered the first L226 Nat Geo test for L226 but do not think multiple Nat Geo tests would be much good compared to a second Full Genomes test while it is still $200 off.

I still think that the price for the Full Genomes test is pretty steep. I, for one am now a pensioner and need to watch my spending. I think we should wait and see what results we get from Geno 2.0 as more test that.

Presently we have:-
N13807 Cannon ChipNGv1
N112917 Croke ChipNGv1

who have tested Geno 2.0 and yourself waiting. Results can be seen Here (https://gap.familytreedna.com/ydna-snp-report.aspx) We then need to analyse these carefully. As I have said before, we will probably need 10 to 20 people testing to get meaningful results.

I spent over $200 on SNP testing before 10 of us put in $75 each for the original WTY that got us L226 back in 2009. We were lucky in that we found a promising SNP and it then only cost $29 each for several of us to prove that this was the defining SNP for Irish Type III.

Progressing further is going to be a lot more expensive.

RobertCasey
06-10-2013, 03:57 PM
I am the only person in the queue for testing for Nat Geo for L226 that I am aware of. You need to make sure that N13807 and N112917 send their raw data to David Reynolds for analysis. He does not analyze Nat Geo uploads since they are prone to errors and are missing many critical negative results. I have not seen them in his summary to date.

The Full Genomes test is far superior to the Walk the Y. It is even somewhat better than the beta 454 WTY tests which was dropped by FTDNA. Since the coverage for the FG test is around 20 times more than the Walk the Y, 20,000,000 base pairs vs. 500,000 base pairs which have been repeatedly tested, each FG test should yield 20 or 30 new SNPs - so this test should probably reveal ten or more new SNPs under L226 as well as some above L226 since this is the only Z253 submission to test to date. It will probably reveal several duplicate SNPs that will be to be determined to be duplicates vs. significant branches.

I highly recommend putting out another plea for the group to pledge another $100 each for another FG test. Make sure this test is a remotely connected to my South Carolina Casey cluster as much as possible (the second cluster should not share any off-modal mutations with my cluster for maximum discovery under L226). That rules out Casey (Munster), Hart, O'Brien and Hogan surname clusters. Also, any submission should belong to a surname cluster with several 67 submissions: Bryan, Butler, Cannon, Crow, McCraw, O'Neill, O'Mahony, Ryan, Callahan, Noland or Wright. Of course, it would not be that bad to share one mutation with the South Carolina Casey cluster - but it would be very preferable to come from a surname cluster that shares some off modal mutations vs. just a standalone submission. Of course, a 111 marker YSTR submission and Nat Geo tested submission would be preferable as well. My test by itself will not be as useful as two tests - until FTDNA offers the new SNPs via individual order to allow further analysis. With no track record of major possible branches, FTNDA may be reluctant to add all the SNPs being discovered in these new FG tests. With eight pending L21 tests that should yield 20 or 30 new SNPs each, that is a couple of hundred new L21 SNPs to add to special order where testing numbers could be very low. They will concentrate on adding new SNP that the 1000 genomes type people find to be broad (those above L226 vs. those under L226). I do not know if the 1000 Genomes project has any L226 submissions in their database for comparison purposes.

rms2
06-12-2013, 11:46 AM
I mentioned this on that "Recruits!" thread I started, but it is an odd co-inky-dink that my two recent recruits ended up being only one off at 12 markers:

Hogan, kit 284650: 13 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 11 13 13 29

Quinn, kit 284703: 13 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 11 12 13 28

I wish they had longer haplotypes, but it's hard enough to get new people at $49 a pop, let alone $100 and up. Anyway, I was perusing an article on the Dál gCais and noticed that there were some O'Quins among them. Wouldn't it be odd if my second recruit turned out to be L226+, too?

Quinn has an L21 test on order, but not an L226 test. Wish he would upgrade to more markers.

RobertCasey
06-12-2013, 12:23 PM
I mentioned this on that "Recruits!" thread I started, but it is an odd co-inky-dink that my two recent recruits ended up being only one off at 12 markers:

Hogan, kit 284650: 13 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 11 13 13 29

Quinn, kit 284703: 13 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 11 12 13 28



Both have the L226 mutation 439 <= 11. But 12 markers have around average 90 % error rate for false hits for my L226 surname cluster. At 25 markers, you pick up the majority of L226 off modal values: 459a <= 8, 459b <= 9, 449 <= 29, 464a <= 13, 464b <= 13 and 464c <= 15. Of course, there are 18 known surname clusters including a Hogan cluster which is 481 >= 23. Genetic testing is expensive, I just ordered my Full Genomes test and we should find another five or ten SNPs under L226 in a month or so - maybe one or two will be able to order immediately from FTDNA at $39 each. Most will have to wait for primers and others to prove these SNPs broad enough to add to special orders.

rms2
06-12-2013, 06:45 PM
I guess I am kind of assuming that Hogan is L226+, given his surname and the fact that he was born and raised in County Clare. I think I am right and his L226 test will produce a positive result, but time will tell. That one should go to FTDNA's lab today.

With Quinn I am just poking around in the dark. He is an American whose family tradition says they're Irish, but he doesn't know where in Ireland his immigrant ancestor came from. I just thought it would be odd and kind of funny if both Hogan and Quinn turned out to be L226+. It would be really cool, actually.

rms2
06-17-2013, 11:01 PM
I guess I am kind of assuming that Hogan is L226+, given his surname and the fact that he was born and raised in County Clare. I think I am right and his L226 test will produce a positive result, but time will tell. That one should go to FTDNA's lab today.

With Quinn I am just poking around in the dark. He is an American whose family tradition says they're Irish, but he doesn't know where in Ireland his immigrant ancestor came from. I just thought it would be odd and kind of funny if both Hogan and Quinn turned out to be L226+. It would be really cool, actually.

Even though I mentioned this already on the "Recruits!" thread, since I said he had no idea (which was true when I typed those words), I think it only fair to mention here that a little research on Ancestry.com turned up the immigrant ancestor for Quinn, kit 284703. We got some good info from Quinn's father - names, dates and places of birth, etc. - and were able to track the family through U.S. census and other records to Patrick James Quinn, born 25 Mar 1825 in Galway, but whether Galway city or County Galway, I'm not sure.

All this is public information, btw, since Quinn has listed his mdka and the info shows up on the Y-DNA Results pages of the R-L21 Plus Project, The Ireland Project, and the Quinn Project.

rms2
06-25-2013, 01:56 PM
Here's something curious, a cross post from the Facebook L21 Group:



Michael O'Reilly Rice
I thought you guy should know I came across a post from Marja Pirttivaara on the Y-DNA Project Administrators-
"Geno 2.0 transfer has changed at least three men's haplogroup from N1c1 to R1b1a2a1a1b4h. This is due to L226, my husband had the same problem and it was corrected. Obviously manually and for him as here are these new cases. I've ordered him L226 in FTDNA to confirm if his L226+ a mistake in Geno 2.0 or a private SNP in N1c1. It's still pending.

I've informed FTDNA about three problematic n1c1 - > R1b1a2a1a1b4h changes (two in finland dNA, one not).

N3027, 217359, N112701 if you know more please tell me, i can inform the FTDNA."


Judging from Pirttivaara's surname, I would say her husband is Finnish and that this is either a mix up or a second instance of L226, this time within N1C1, and unrelated to our R-L226 bunch (except very very distantly, via the "Super K" family).

rms2
06-25-2013, 02:14 PM
I found N3027 on page 3 of the Finland Project, and 217359 is on page 4. Both are now listed as "R1b1a2a1a1b4h", erroneously, I believe. They are Finns and so most likely really are N1C1. Like I said, this is either a mix up, or, what seems more likely, a second instance of L226, this time within N1C1: an "L226.2", I guess.

Finland DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/finland/default.aspx?vgroup=finland&vgroup=finland&vgroup=finland&vgroup=finland&section=yresults)

TigerMW
06-25-2013, 03:10 PM
I found N3027 on page 3 of the Finland Project, and 217359 is on page 4. Both are now listed as "R1b1a2a1a1b4h", erroneously, I believe. They are Finns and so most likely really are N1C1. Like I said, this is either a mix up, or, what seems more likely, a second instance of L226, this time within N1C1: an "L226.2", I guess.

Finland DNA Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/finland/default.aspx?vgroup=finland&vgroup=finland&vgroup=finland&vgroup=finland§ion=yresults)

I agree with you. Not only are the Y STRs strange for R1b let alone L226, but I don't see any positives in his Geno 2 results that represent anything equivalent to L21, DF13 or Z253.

RobertCasey
06-25-2013, 03:17 PM
Even stranger are that N3027 and 217359 are 6 of 9 matches for the L226 fingerprint under L21:

I found N3027 and 217359 in the Finland DNA project (3,457 submissions). I ran them through my L21 SNP predictor and they match the L226 fingerprint under L21:

N3027 - 6 of 9 match for L226 fingerprint - predicted 20 % odds of testing positive for L226
217359 - 6 of 9 match for L226 fingerprint - predicted 20 % odds of testing positive for L226
217359 also is 80 % predicted for L744 and L526 which are also under L21 - so these submissions match known L21 fingerprints.
It is very unusual to be predicted for multiple fingerprints as well - but L21 fingerprint matches do overlap for low matches.

However, the SNP reports do not list either L21+ or Z253+ for the above two submissions. So these submission could be
L21 but it seems very odd that L21 and Z253 do not test positive as well. It also seems very odd that another mutation
of L226 would match the L226 fingerprint under L21.

TigerMW
06-25-2013, 03:32 PM
Even stranger are that N3027 and 217359 are 6 of 9 matches for the L226 fingerprint under L21:

I found N3027 and 217359 in the Finland DNA project (3,457 submissions). I ran them through my L21 SNP predictor and they match the L226 fingerprint under L21:

N3027 - 6 of 9 match for L226 fingerprint - predicted 20 % odds of testing positive for L226
217359 - 6 of 9 match for L226 fingerprint - predicted 20 % odds of testing positive for L226
217359 also is 80 % predicted for L744 and L526 which are also under L21 - so these submissions match known L21 fingerprints.
It is very unusual to be predicted for multiple fingerprints as well - but L21 fingerprint matches do overlap for low matches.

However, the SNP reports do not list either L21+ or Z253+ for the above two submissions. So these submission could be
L21 but it seems very odd that L21 and Z253 do not test positive as well. It also seems very odd that another mutation
of L226 would match the L226 fingerprint under L21.

I think your tool is excellent. We just have to keep in mind the limitations of our methodologies. This is one of the reasons I also do a GD cross-check when looking for L21 suspects. Even a strong STR signature can be found in more than one haplogroup. This is part of the reason why I gave up trying to do a totally mathematically based system. It's just too complicated to easily represent and program. Sometimes the eye and human mind can still discern patterns and considerations better.

I get N3027 as GDs of at 67 ranging from 39 to 67 with everyone in my L21 suspects/confirmed file. That's way out of range.

Another factor is that the traditional Irish III STR signature relies on two multi-copy markers. I do use them, but I try to avoid them in defining STR signatures. I'd much rather have some nice straight forward slow to medium moving STR off-modals. The problem with multi-copy markers is they are jumpy and they are reported in sequence from low to high value, regardless of the physical location. Two DYS464=14,15,17,17 people could actually have a mutation difference as their "14"'s may have occurred at different locations. This is why there are advanced tests on some of these multi-copy STRs like the DYS464X test.

As we know, the truth tellers are the SNPs. As Richard S pointed out on FB, the SNPs provide a fixed pedigree. We don't see the L21+ or DF13+ or Z253+ (and/or equivalents) for N3027.

rms2
06-25-2013, 03:35 PM
I mentioned this over on the thread on this subject I started over in the N subforum, but both of those guys are listed on the SNP Results page of the Finland Project as M231+ (N) and Tat+ (M46+/P105+ or N1c1). They have none of the R (M207) pedigree.

So, I think this is a second instance of L226, this time within N1c1 (Tat+).

RobertCasey
06-25-2013, 04:14 PM
I think your tool is excellent. We just have to keep in mind the limitations of our methodologies. This is one of the reasons I also do a GD cross-check when looking for L21 suspects. Even a strong STR signature can be found in more than one haplogroup. This is part of the reason why I gave up trying to do a totally mathematically based system. It's just too complicated to easily represent and program. Sometimes the eye and human mind can still discern patterns and considerations better.

I get N3027 as GDs of at 67 ranging from 39 to 67 with everyone in my L21 suspects/confirmed file. That's way out of range.

Another factor is that the traditional Irish III STR signature relies on two multi-copy markers. I do use them, but I try to avoid them in defining STR signatures. I'd much rather have some nice straight forward slow to medium moving STR off-modals. The problem with multi-copy markers is they are jumpy and they are reported in sequence from low to high value, regardless of the physical location. Two DYS464=14,15,17,17 people could actually have a mutation difference as their "14"'s may have occurred at different locations. This is why there are advanced tests on some of these multi-copy STRs like the DYS464X test.

As we know, the truth tellers are the SNPs. As Richard S pointed out on FB, the SNPs provide a fixed pedigree. We don't see the L21+ or DF13+ or Z253+ (and/or equivalents) for N3027.

I guess I should look at the output of my own tool for genetic distance:

N3027, GD=36 from L226 fingerprint
217359, GD=35 from L226 fingerprint

I think this clearly illustrates the need to at least test L21 positive before anyone can depend on our signatures or fingerprints. As you and I both know, high genetic distance is another deal killer for SNP prediction if too high. This is just a random example of a fingerprint matching a second mutation which is definitely in the low odds scenario. I may play around with adding GD as a second parameter in SNP prediction and see if the statistical packages give it a high enough p-factor rating to be used. For most SNPs, it does not make any difference. However, for SNPs that are not genetically isolated, it will probably increase the accuracy measurements.

However, I disagree with you on the omission of faster moving markers or multi-copy markers. Statistical packages definitely show that all measurements of accuracy decline with omission of these faster mutating and multi-copy markers. Statistics always likes more data vs. cleaner data. More data seems to always win that battle. This only applies to surviving fingerprints that originated after 1,500 years ago. For much older SNPs, removing faster moving markers may be useful. But even then, I think that more complete surviving fingerprints of at least seven markers for 67 markers is ideal. Six marker fingerprints have statistic accuracy slipping on several SNPs. I am also considering adding 449 to all fingerprints to see if that increases accuracy (since half of L21 is 29 and the other half are 30). For statistics, it does not make any difference which came first - it only matters what the raw quantities of each value are. Unfortunately, that makes the determination of mutation order a different exercise from SNP prediction.

TigerMW
06-26-2013, 02:17 PM
However, I disagree with you on the omission of faster moving markers or multi-copy markers. Statistical packages definitely show that all measurements of accuracy decline with omission of these faster mutating and multi-copy markers. Statistics always likes more data vs. cleaner data. More data seems to always win that battle. This only applies to surviving fingerprints that originated after 1,500 years ago. For much older SNPs, removing faster moving markers may be useful....

I agree with you, more data is better. I do use multi-copy markers in STR signatures. I was just trying to say there are some additional risks so I look for other STRs, particularly the slower moving ones, first.


.. Another factor is that the traditional Irish III STR signature relies on two multi-copy markers. I do use them, but I try to avoid them in defining STR signatures. I'd much rather have some nice straight forward slow to medium moving STR off-modals. The problem with multi-copy markers is they are jumpy and they are reported in sequence from low to high value, regardless of the physical location. Two DYS464=14,15,17,17 people could actually have a mutation difference as their "14"'s may have occurred at different locations. This is why there are advanced tests on some of these multi-copy STRs like the DYS464X test.

rms2
07-02-2013, 10:56 AM
I guess I am kind of assuming that Hogan is L226+, given his surname and the fact that he was born and raised in County Clare. I think I am right and his L226 test will produce a positive result, but time will tell. That one should go to FTDNA's lab today.

With Quinn I am just poking around in the dark . . .

Hooray! Hogan, kit 284650, is L226+! Guess I recruited the right Irishman when I was in Ireland this past March. :)

He has an upgrade to 25 markers on order, but those results have not come in yet.

Quinn, kit 284703, is L21+ and got his 25-marker upgrade. He is not Irish Type III, so is probably not L226+.

Anyway, both gentlemen will be happy with their results. B)

IrishTypeIII
07-09-2013, 10:32 AM
Hooray! Hogan, kit 284650, is L226+! Guess I recruited the right Irishman when I was in Ireland this past March. :)

He has an upgrade to 25 markers on order, but those results have not come in yet.

Quinn, kit 284703, is L21+ and got his 25-marker upgrade. He is not Irish Type III, so is probably not L226+.

Good work .... yes 284650 is L226+ and I too am looking forward to his 13-25 markers.

I am presently checking nearly 50 websites with known Irish Type III members, to see what new members have tested. I haven't done this for quite some time and there have been plenty of new participants.

Some figures as of today with more to come:-

Actually tested L226+ ... 149
Tested to 67 markers ... 273
Shown in the Public database (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14028750/STRMarkersResults2007.xlsx) ... 594 (these are Ysearch and FTDNA projects only.
STR results in my Private database ... 807 (include Ancestry and SMGF results)
Believed to be Irish Type III ... 938 (includes 120+ who are shown as matches to Donohoe 11144, who is an exact match to Irish Type III modal at 67 markers).

These latter guys are shown at Lost Members (http://irishtype3dna.org/lostmembers.php) and while I have emailed all, these have not replied.
I may have some of their results from a Surname Project, but I am sure many have not tested through a project.

Not a bad haul since Ken Nordvedlt first identified this cluster at the start of 2006!

Dennis

rms2
07-09-2013, 11:18 AM
Good work .... yes 284650 is L226+ and I too am looking forward to his 13-25 markers.

I am presently checking nearly 50 websites with known Irish Type III members, to see what new members have tested. I haven't done this for quite some time and there have been plenty of new participants.

Some figures as of today with more to come:-

Actually tested L226+ ... 149
Tested to 67 markers ... 273
Shown in the Public database (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14028750/STRMarkersResults2007.xlsx) ... 594 (these are Ysearch and FTDNA projects only.
STR results in my Private database ... 807 (include Ancestry and SMGF results)
Believed to be Irish Type III ... 938 (includes 120+ who are shown as matches to Donohoe 11144, who is an exact match to Irish Type III modal at 67 markers).

These latter guys are shown at Lost Members (http://irishtype3dna.org/lostmembers.php) and while I have emailed all, these have not replied.
I may have some of their results from a Surname Project, but I am sure many have not tested through a project.

Not a bad haul since Ken Nordvedlt first identified this cluster at the start of 2006!

Dennis

Noel Hogan said he has been talking with friends about his y-dna results and will be on the lookout for some new recruits in his area for me. Of course, we can't guarantee they will be Irish Type III, but who knows? :)

Dubhthach
07-09-2013, 11:26 AM
Two newish L226+ in the Ireland project.


278258 (NORMANLY) -- ordered L226 and got his + result in the last week
266222 (Lynch) -- new member already tested L226+



Obviously most people know of the Galway Lynches who were Norman in origin, however there was Dál gCaiseanna family anglisced as Lynch as well.

TigerMW
07-09-2013, 01:38 PM
Noel Hogan said he has been talking with friends about his y-dna results and will be on the lookout for some new recruits in his area for me. Of course, we can't guarantee they will be Irish Type III, but who knows? :)

Great work. That would be something if we could get a raft of interest going over there. Ask him if he has friends in Co. Kilkenny.

rossa
07-09-2013, 02:57 PM
Noel Hogan said he has been talking with friends about his y-dna results and will be on the lookout for some new recruits in his area for me. Of course, we can't guarantee they will be Irish Type III, but who knows? :)

How did you get him to test again? I can't remember if you said he was a relative or someone you ran into?

IrishTypeIII
07-09-2013, 11:55 PM
Two newish L226+ in the Ireland project.


278258 (NORMANLY) -- ordered L226 and got his + result in the last week
266222 (Lynch) -- new member already tested L226+



Obviously most people know of the Galway Lynches who were Norman in origin, however there was Dál gCaiseanna family anglisced as Lynch as well.

I have been in contact with Eamoon Normanly recently.

I explained the possible Irish origin of his surname as his DNA was Irish Type III.

He replied:-

It has gotten me on a different trail tracing my Normanly surname origin mystery.
While we were in school in Ireland our surname in Irish/Gaelic was MacConormaoile,
which we knew was also the meaning of the Normoyle/Normile (sept of the McNamaras, Co. Clare) surname.Growing up we always thought it was the closest surname our teachers could find.
Now I realize it is quite possible our earliest ancestor in Co. Sligo,(Tiege McNormully, 1665) was a Normoyle from Co. Clare.

It is great when one is able to get folks on the right trail.

Dennis

rms2
07-19-2013, 09:46 AM
Hogan, kit 284650, got his 25-marker upgrade this morning and, as expected, has an Irish Type III haplotype:

13 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 8-9 11 11 25 15 19 29 13-13-15-17

rms2
07-24-2013, 01:04 AM
Another Hogan, kit 125375, has joined the R-L21 Plus Project. He has an Irish Type III haplotype and has ordered an L226 test. I am trying to get him to join the R-L226 Project, but he hasn't done it yet. I'm also trying to get him to enter his mdka info on his Most Distant Ancestors page so it shows up.

IrishTypeIII
07-24-2013, 12:02 PM
Thanks for the heads-up on Denis Hogan. I have sent him an email asking him to join the R-L226 project.

Cheers,
Dennis

IrishTypeIII
07-24-2013, 12:11 PM
Two years ago I set up a forum for the Irish Type III cluster on Rootsweb at Irish Type III (http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/other/DNA/IRISHTYPEIII.html)

It has not been very active and I must admit I have not been pushing its existence. I had hoped that threads such as this one would start up but that has not been the case.

I think we only have about 50 members on the forum, but considering there are nearly 900 Irish Type III men out there it should be really rocking.

I look forward to getting membership requests, and getting some interesting threads going.

What about it?

Dennis Wright
www.irishtype3dna.org/

rms2
07-25-2013, 02:39 PM
Here's an old book I stumbled across, White's History of Clare and the Dalcassian Clans of Tipperary, Limerick, and Galway (1893) (http://archive.org/details/historyofclareda00whituoft). You're probably already familiar with it.

I haven't read it yet. I just downloaded it to my Kindle, but you can read it online, too. I thought it looked cool.

Dubhthach
07-25-2013, 02:51 PM
In "Cló Gaelach" on the front piece of that it says:
na céada san g-cath; na deigheanacha as."

S in "Cló Gaelach" looks more like an "r" (it's an old style of s), in comparison an r would have a descender attached at end:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Uncial_alphabet.png

The overdots on the c and the g are written as "h"'s in "Cló Romanach" (Roman script). Compare Dubhthach in the two following fonts:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/dubhthach-gadelica.png

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/dubhthach.PNG

rms2
07-25-2013, 02:59 PM
In "Cló Gaelach" on the front piece of that it says:
na céada san g-cath; na deigheanacha as."

S in "Cló Gaelach" looks more like an "r" (it's an old style of s), in comparison an r would have a descender attached at end:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Uncial_alphabet.png

The overdots on the c and the g are written as "h"'s in "Cló Romanach" (Roman script). Compare Dubhthach in the two following fonts:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/dubhthach-gadelica.png

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/dubhthach.PNG

Ah, I see what you mean:

"The first into battle, the last out of it."

RobertCasey
07-25-2013, 06:59 PM
Got my Nat Geo 2.0 results back (77349) and David Reynolds confirmed no novel SNPs discovered :\ This is the only Nat Geo
2.0 test for L226 submissions that I am aware of.

Hopefully my pending Full Genome test for L226 will be much more fruitful for some new SNPs to break up L226.

IrishTypeIII
07-27-2013, 07:41 AM
Got my Nat Geo 2.0 results back (77349) and David Reynolds confirmed no novel SNPs discovered :\ This is the only Nat Geo
2.0 test for L226 submissions that I am aware of.

Hopefully my pending Full Genome test for L226 will be much more fruitful for some new SNPs to break up L226.

It appears that there are FIVE R-L226 men that have tested Geno 2.0 as shown in Chris Morley's Phylogenies (http://ytree.morleydna.com/experimental-phylogeny).
They are:-
72419 Phillip McIntyre
77349 Robert Casey
N112917 Pat Croke
N114237 ?? O'Connell
N13807 Francis Cannon

Phillip McIntyre was new to me and O'Connell appears in the South Irish project as having done Geno 2.0 but has not tested any STR markers.

Robert, can you get any further info from these guy's results?


Edit:- also interesting that L226 also appears in haplogroup N1c1a1–1–2 according to Chris Morley's tree

Dennis

David
07-27-2013, 12:25 PM
Edit:- also interesting that L226 also appears in haplogroup N1c1a1–1–2 according to Chris Morley's tree

Dennis

Bogus, the L226 probe has been returning false positives for N1c1 men. At least two of the N1c1 people with L226+ Geno 2.0 results were confirmed L226- by Sanger sequencing, and FTDNA has changed L226+ to L226- for at least a dozen or so of the N1c1 men. N112701 is either new and hasn't gotten changed yet, or was missed when the other results were changed.

-david

IrishTypeIII
07-28-2013, 01:04 AM
Bogus, the L226 probe has been returning false positives for N1c1 men. At least two of the N1c1 people with L226+ Geno 2.0 results were confirmed L226- by Sanger sequencing, and FTDNA has changed L226+ to L226- for at least a dozen or so of the N1c1 men. N112701 is either new and hasn't gotten changed yet, or was missed when the other results were changed.

-david

Thanks for that clarification, David.

Regarding L226+ Geno 2.0 results, I have had 72419 McIntyre join the R-L226 project so four of these sets of results can now be seen at R-L226 Project - SNPs (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L226_Project/default.aspx?section=ysnp)

I am presently trying to contact N114237 O'Connell to entice him to join the R-L226 project too.

Those of you that are observant will have noticed in the SNP results, 249607 Mahoney DF13-. I had looked at his STR results, and while off-modal, both his DYS459 and DYS464 results had been seen in L226+ men. I was not aware when I asked him to test L226, that he had tested DF13- so the chances of L226+ are probably nil. But I continue to search for the boundaries of Irish Type III.
I have suggested that 249607 Mahoney join the L21 project.

Dennis

RobertCasey
07-28-2013, 07:40 AM
I confirmed that all submissions have tested Nat Geo 2.0 and uploaded to FTDNA:

72419 Phillip McIntyre - McIntyre project - 37 markers
77349 Robert Casey - Casey project - 111 markers
N112917 Pat Croke - Irish project - 37 markers
N114237 ?? O'Connell - South Irish project - no YSTRs
N13807 Francis Cannon - Cannon project - 111 markers

Of course, unless we get these people to send their files to David Reynolds, new novel SNPs may not be discovered. Also, the raw data is more dependable than the Nat Geo 2.0 uploads. These submissions were all verified to have uploaded Nat Geo to FTDNA. There are probably others. Since David has reviewed my results, we could compare the other SNPs to my SNP list to see if any other novel SNPs are revealed.

I ran my YSNPs through Morley's tool and he mapped almost all to upstream L21 SNPs as equivalents or listed them as unstable SNPs (a few). It did not analyze around a dozen SNPs that have no position on the trees - but were all positive for most submissions in the R1b project with no negatives found. Of course, I also have another twenty or so SNPs that were tested by deep clade and individual tests (most are negative).

IrishTypeIII
07-28-2013, 08:18 AM
Of course, unless we get these people to send their files to David Reynolds, new novel SNPs may not be discovered. Also, the raw data is more dependable than the Nat Geo 2.0 uploads. These submissions were all verified to have uploaded Nat Geo to FTDNA. There are probably others. Since David has reviewed my results, we could compare the other SNPs to my SNP list to see if any other novel SNPs are revealed.

David,

If you are watching this thread, have you got the raw data from all of the five? If not, perhaps I can assist in contacting these guys with an email address to send the data to.
If you wish to contact me off-thread, [email protected] will get me.

Dennis

Edit: 72419 is Bret MacIntyre, Phillip is his ancestor. (my mistake in the earlier email)

David
07-28-2013, 09:41 AM
I only have Robert's; would be great to get the other four as well. You can refer them to this URL for download and e-mail instructions:
http://daver.info/geno/

Regards,
david



David,

If you are watching this thread, have you got the raw data from all of the five? If not, perhaps I can assist in contacting these guys with an email address to send the data to.
If you wish to contact me off-thread, [email protected] will get me.

Dennis

Edit: 72419 is Bret MacIntyre, Phillip is his ancestor. (my mistake in the earlier email)

IrishTypeIII
07-29-2013, 06:16 AM
I only have Robert's; would be great to get the other four as well. You can refer them to this URL for download and e-mail instructions:
http://daver.info/geno/

Regards,
david

Invitations sent to
72419 McIntyre
N112917 Croke
N13807 Cannon

I am still trying to contact N114237 O'Connell

IrishTypeIII
07-29-2013, 07:56 AM
N114237 Henry Daniel O'Connell has now contacted me and joined the R-L226 project.

All five L226 Geno 2.0 results can now be seen at R-L226 Project - SNPs (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L226_Project/default.aspx?section=ysnp)

I have also invited him to send his Geno 2.0 raw data to David. (David, please let me know if you need further assistance).

A spreadsheet with the FTDNA Geno 2.0 data (not the Raw Data) for all five L226 men is available here. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14028750/L226%20Geno2_0.xlsx)
While there are some SNPs reported for one subject and not for others, I can see no SNP that is +ve for one subject and -ve for another.

Dennis

RobertCasey
07-29-2013, 04:18 PM
Since my submission did not yield any novel SNPs, the next four probably will not yield any new SNP as well. However, my Casey cluster is very genetically isolated as compared to the numerous other surname clusters under R-L226. It would be nice to find one or two new SNPs before my Full Genomes test results become available - due date is slipping way out which is not encouraging. Hopefully, my test will reveal 20 or 30 new YSNPs (half above and half below L226). This will give us a lot to test for. However, other than other FG Ychr tests, FTDNA will have to find primers and make these new SNPs available for testing individually. FG has alluded to individual SNP tests elsewhere at lower costs than FTDNA - but then I do not see any common database plans at FG in the works. So testing all these new SNPs is a big unknown at this point. Right now, our strategy will be to lobby FTDNA to add certain promising SNPs but that will require multiple L226 tests at FG to reveal the larger branches vs. the private SNPs. For FTDNA, very few will test these private SNPs, so the setup time for researching these new SNPs (vs. future income) will be problematic for them. They will add the older SNPs pretty quickly since there will be a lot of orders for broader SNPs. I think they should charge more for private SNPs in order to make it feasible for them to make a profit on these (vs. just ignoring them). Or reduce the costs for common SNPs where the setup costs can be spread out many tests :)

rms2
08-31-2013, 12:36 PM
I see Hogan, kit 125375, got his L226+ result, as expected. B)

IrishTypeIII
09-01-2013, 12:40 AM
I see Hogan, kit 125375, got his L226+ result, as expected. B)

Yes, and two others, B3975 O'Briant, and 293008 McMahon have their results, L226+ too.

I had suggested to 249607 Mahoney, that although he was a GD=25 from Irish Type III modal, that he test L226 as his major differences were also seen in other L226+ men.
He is DYS459=8,10 and DYS464=13,14,16,17.

162715 Hannon and PKRVY McGraw are DYS459=8,10
206305 Casey is DYS464=13,14,16,17.

The result came back L226-. It still remains important to test outliers to determine the extent of each clade.

To date there is only one STR that is definitive for the cluster, DYS716=24. All 45 Irish Type III tested have this value and it has not been seen at 24 in any other R clade man.

Dennis

Dubhthach
09-01-2013, 01:06 AM
Yes, and two others, B3975 O'Briant, and 293008 McMahon have their results, L226+ too.

I had suggested to 249607 Mahoney, that although he was a GD=25 from Irish Type III modal, that he test L226 as his major differences were also seen in other L226+ men.
He is DYS459=8,10 and DYS464=13,14,16,17.

162715 Hannon and PKRVY McGraw are DYS459=8,10
206305 Casey is DYS464=13,14,16,17.

The result came back L226-. It still remains important to test outliers to determine the extent of each clade.

To date there is only one STR that is definitive for the cluster, DYS716=24. All 45 Irish Type III tested have this value and it has not been seen at 24 in any other R clade man.

Dennis

Probably best to get him to test Z253 and if positive then Z2534. If he at least came back as Z253+/Z2534+ it would at least rule out STR convergence and point to a potential pre-L226 common ancestor.

-Paul
(DF41+)

IrishTypeIII
09-01-2013, 02:46 AM
Probably best to get him to test Z253 and if positive then Z2534. If he at least came back as Z253+/Z2534+ it would at least rule out STR convergence and point to a potential pre-L226 common ancestor.

-Paul
(DF41+)

I am sorry, I didn't mention in my earlier post that he had tested DF13- too, so that rules him out completely from our side of the L21 tree. I have suggested that he join R-L21 project.

It is interesting that his STR results are close, and yet being DF13- he is millenniums away in having a common ancestor with L226+.

Dennis

rms2
09-01-2013, 11:25 AM
Mahoney, kit 249607, has 492=13, which I think explains why he tested DF13-. He is probably U106+.

IrishTypeIII
11-13-2013, 06:58 AM
The Big-Y.
The R-L226 has two members that have taken up this test:-
25505 Wright
48596 O'Brien

Hopefully the results can be checked against the Full Genomes test that Robert Casey is doing.
Perhaps we can find some branches below L226.

IrishTypeIII
05-18-2014, 12:55 PM
Big-Y has produced large numbers of SNPs for evaluation in each branch of L21 and in several cases under L21, 'Blocks' of equivalent SNPs have appeared.

In some cases these are possibly/probably branches that had up until now not been known. In other cases these may be what we are looking for to define a 'bottleneck' where only one progenitor has survived from a branch that originated many centuries before.

I have always been intrigued by how different the Irish Type III STR signature is to all other R-L21 haplogroups.

Several years ago using geneticist Anatole Klyosov's methods, the TMRCA was calculated using 146 haplotypes of 67 markers. This gave a TMRCA for the Irish Type III haplogroup of 1,175 ± 135 years . The most common ancestor of this haplogroup lived between 690 AD and 960 AD.

Because of the haplogroup's distinctive signature, it is believed a 'bottleneck' event may have occurred, where a previous colony of several/many people reach a situation where only one male has surviving male progeny and so all future members of the colony are descended from him. Of course this will mean that the progenitor of the haplogroup may have lived much earlier and so the haplogroup could be centuries older.
Six members of the Irish Type III haplogroup undertook Big-Y testing and we have found ALL tested positive for a total of 15 SNPs including the previously discovered L226, which adds credence to a 'bottleneck' having occurred with this haplogroup. Three new SNPs were also discovered that seem to show branches that have occurred in more recent times together with many 'private' SNPs for each man tested.

When we count up and average the SNPs that have occurred in these six men since the 'bottleneck' event, that is ignoring the 15 SNPs that are equivalent to L226, we find it averages 13 new SNPs. When divided into the 1,175 years to the MRCA we get a figure of 90 years per SNP.

If we use the same 90 years/SNP and multiply by the 15 phytogenetically equivalent SNPs we get a figure of 1,350 years, meaning that Irish Type III branched from the main R-Tree, under Z2534 around 700 - 400 BC.

1,350 years is certainly plenty of time for this haplogroup to develop such a distinctive STR signature.

The question will now be, did this founding father of Irish Type III live in Ireland or Europe?

If anyone wishes to investigate further, the Z253 BigY Novel spreadsheet can be downloaded here:-
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14028750/Z253%20BigY%20Novel.xlsx

There were several SNPs that are inconclusive at this time and have not been considered in the above.

Dennis W

Carey_L226+
07-18-2014, 05:01 AM
I am new to all this, so please forgive me if this is a dumb question. I am L226+. My haplogroup at the Carey DNA Project at WorldFamilies.net is shown as R1b1a2a1a2c1f2a. On many FTDNA sites, such as the Gilbert Y-DNA Project, the haplogroup for L226+ individuals is shown as R1b1a1a1a1a1d4. Could someone explain this apparent discrepancy?

Dubhthach
07-18-2014, 08:18 AM
I am new to all this, so please forgive me if this is a dumb question. I am L226+. My haplogroup at the Carey DNA Project at WorldFamilies.net is shown as R1b1a2a1a2c1f2a. On many FTDNA sites, such as the Gilbert Y-DNA Project, the haplogroup for L226+ individuals is shown as R1b1a1a1a1a1d4. Could someone explain this apparent discrepancy?

The "long form" versions are sorta a moving target. As new SNP's are found it often leads to "relabeling of branches" to represet the change in phlyogeny. FTDNA's tree is unfortunatley out of date.

Here are some designations from ISOGG's tree over the years for L226:
2014: R1b1a2a1a2c1f2a
2013: R1b1a2a1a2c1f2a
2012: R1b1a2a1a1b3a6a
2011: R1b1a2a1a1b4g1
2010: R1b1b2a1a2f4

L226 was only added during 2010. If a new SNP is found upstream and added to tree the number will change again. As a result people in community tend to use "short-form versions" so for example: R-L226 or R1b-L226 -- both of these highlight that L226 is part of Haplogroup R (second more specifically R1b)

-Paul
(R-DF41+)

Carey_L226+
07-20-2014, 05:59 AM
I am new to all this, so please forgive me if this is a dumb question. I am L226+. My haplogroup at the Carey DNA Project at WorldFamilies.net is shown as R1b1a2a1a2c1f2a. On many FTDNA sites, such as the Gilbert Y-DNA Project, the haplogroup for L226+ individuals is shown as R1b on that list. 1a1a1a1a1d4. Could someone explain this apparent discrepancy?

I see Dennis Wright is using the term R1b1a2a1a2c1f2a at his Irish Type III web site, and R1b1a1a1a1a1d4 at his R-L226 web site. I find it especially confusing that the same expert is currently using two different terms for the same SNP. I tried to direct this question to him, but I'm having trouble learning my way around Anthrogenica.

IrishTypeIII
07-20-2014, 12:35 PM
Hi Carey L226+,

Dennis Wright here. Those nomenclatures are based on the SNPs that had been discovered at the time of writing and with BigY and other NGS (next genome sequencing), a new SNP is being discovered each week. If the SNP is up the tree, then the naming of all SNPs downstream are affected. It is almost impossible to keep up and with such long names now they are almost useless anyway.

May I suggest that you stick with R-L226 as your haplogroup.

I had better have a look at both my website and the R-L226 project and practice what I preach!

Thanks for the heads-up.

Cheers

Dennis Wright

Little bit
07-21-2014, 02:56 PM
Hi, thanks Dennis for chiming in. I did not opt for the Big Y test but I'm curious if there are any snp's worthing testing, found in the Big Y, for those already L226 confirmed?

I do have updates concerning my genealogy of the Frawley ancestors. Verbal family history indicated that the Frawley's came from County Clare. Not so. After researching, and there is a wealth of Frawley history due to the famousness/infamousness of the 7 surviving Frawley son's of Thomas and Honora (Hogan) Frawley, they, in fact, came from Rathkeale, Limerick Ireland. So here are our Frawley's:

Thomas Frawley b. 1821 Rathkeale Limerick Ireland d. 1896 Eau Claire WI - noted farmers in Rathkeale, Thomas and his wife Honora Hogan Frawley immigrated to Troy New York in 1849 with their son's Michael Stephen (my husband's great grandfather) and Patrick. Patrick was an infant at the time and he died before reaching adulthood, not sure when. They moved to Janesville WI sometime after 1850 and the Town of Vermont, WI around 1854. They had a large ranch with cattle and farming and were one of the family's that built St. Simon's Catholic Church, later named St. James.

-Michael Stephen Frawley b. 1845 in Rathkeale though he always claimed he was born in Troy New York. d. 1925 in Eau Claire. My husband's great grandfather, noted educator in Eau Claire serving as principal and superintendent.

-Patrick Frawley b. 1848 in Rathkeale d. young in either New York or Wisconsin

-Henry J Frawley b. 1850 in Troy New York. d. 1927 in Nebraska but he didn't live there. Henry was one of the early settlers of Deadwood S.D. He was a noted lawyer who got rich representing mining and railroad interests and amassed a huge land owing himself, ranching and farming. You can still visit his homestead in Spearfish SD in Centennial Valley, awarded a place on the National Register of Historic Places. We spent some time there last summer and enjoyed meeting our long lost Frawley cousins:
http://www.deadwoodcenturyawards.com/wall/frawley.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frawley_Ranch

Thomas Francis Frawley: b. 1853 in Wisconsin, either Janesville or Town of Vermont. d. 1902 of a burst appendix. Beloved and noted lawyer in Eau Claire, very politically active.

Mary E. Frawley: b + d. in Town of Vermont, WI 1858-1893. Didn't go to college, became a teacher in town before her early death. Never married, no kids

John C. Frawley: b. 1859 d. ? last known to be in Los Angeles in 1925. John was the black sheep of the family and was the only Frawley male not to achieve a college degree. He was involved with real estate and mining and owned mines in Nome Alaska for a time. Later he was found in Phoenix and finally Los Angeles. No one knows what ultimately become of him.

Honora A. Frawley: b. + d. in the Town of Vermont, WI. 1861-1886. Like her sister, did not go to college, died young and childless. After graduating primary school she taught school and Sunday school before her early death.

William H. Frawley: b. 1863 Town of Vermont d. 1941 Eau Claire, WI. Several times elected Mayor of Eau Claire, noted lawyer in that town as well as other business ventures. There is still a building there with his name on it.

James Leo Frawley b. 1866 Town of Vermont d. 1938 Nome Alaska. Noted lawyer in Nome and miner, listed as one of the Pioneers of the city as well as an Alaska-Yukon Goldrush participant. Later appointed as a United States Commissioner and listed as a senator.

Edward J. Frawley: b. 1870 Town of Vermont. d. Boise Idaho. One of the pioneers of that city and long time Ada County prosecutor.

So, all but 2 son's became lawyers and there seems to be what I call the "Frawley curse" for Frawley daughters. The curse extended to future generations as well: Frawley son's go out adventuring, making names for themselves, and many Frawley daughters dying childless. I'm hoping my daughter has not inherited that curse! Here is a link to the Frawley's in my tree:
http://trees.ancestry.com/tree/52321331/person/13336100987

lgmayka
07-21-2014, 07:49 PM
I did not opt for the Big Y test but I'm curious if there are any snp's worthing testing, found in the Big Y, for those already L226 confirmed?
The only new subclade of L226 listed by YFull is Y4010 (http://yfull.com/tree/R1b1a2a1a2c1f2a/), also known as FGC5628 (http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/chrY?ref=ChrY;start=8606022;end=8606022;name=FGC56 28;class=Sequence;feature_id=19395;db_id=chrY%3Ada tabase).

IrishTypeIII
07-24-2014, 10:35 PM
The only new subclade of L226 listed by YFull is Y4010 (http://yfull.com/tree/R1b1a2a1a2c1f2a/), also known as FGC5628 (http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/chrY?ref=ChrY;start=8606022;end=8606022;name=FGC56 28;class=Sequence;feature_id=19395;db_id=chrY%3Ada tabase).

YSeq is now offering both FGC5628 and DC1.

Of the six that tested Big-Y, five were FGC5628+ and one ancestral (me, Wright 25505), indicating an early branching. Of the five that were FGC5628+, two were also DC1+, O'Brien, 48596 and Dunn, 29338 defining a second branch.
See:- http://irishtype3dna.org/bigy.php
The full spreadsheet is available here. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14028750/Z253%20BigY%20Novel.xlsx)

As a total of 15 SNPs are shown equivalent to L226, it indicates a long bottleneck since this line separated from Z2534. From L226 to the present, the six testers averaged 13 SNPs which divided into the 1175 years since the MRCA for L226, gives 90 years/SNP. If we apply this to the 15 parallel SNPs to L226 we get 1350 years to the separation, suggesting the break occurred around 600BC - 150AD.

Dubhthach
07-25-2014, 08:12 AM
Dennis,

It might be a good idea to drop Alex Williamson an email about your FGC5628- result. He has you down with a question mark on this SNP in his tree:
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/L226.png

-Paul
(DF41+)

IrishTypeIII
07-26-2014, 12:14 AM
Thanks for the heads-up.
I have sent an email to Alex, and also advised that he doesn't have Cannon or Dunn in his chart. Dunn and O'Brien share a SNP, DC1 that indicates a further branch in R-L226

As an aside, my Thunderbird email client wants to change your user name to 'Toothache'!

Cheers !

RobertCasey
10-08-2014, 04:00 AM
With the assistance of Dennis, I have created a new analysis of the newly discovered YSNPs under L226:

http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L21/Analysis/R_L21_Analysis_FGC5628&others.html

http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L21/DNAResults/FGC5628_20141007B.xls

I added around twenty new YSNP test results, created a first pass at a L226 Decendant tree and removed the FGC498 branch based on YSEQ feedback. Also, a preliminary description of a new L226 YSEQ panel is now in the works (18 L226 YSNPs for $88) done by a two pass test (YSNPs that have to be negative are not tested which reduces testing costs for all). The L226 YSEQ panel test will take some time to be ready for ordering.

rms2
01-25-2015, 01:08 AM
Maybe this is a flaky thing to wonder about, but I think Conan O'Brien is extremely funny and talented. Since he has one of the Dalcassian surnames (O'Brien), I wonder if he is L226+. Maybe someone should try to talk him into testing for it.


http://youtu.be/GjTAOOrvGd0


http://youtu.be/30J_A42iyKA

Gray Fox
01-25-2015, 02:53 AM
I'd be very surprised if he was against it. He seems very interested in and proud of his Irish heritage.

Jessie
01-25-2015, 11:41 AM
Go for it someone should ask him.:) It would be really interesting to see if he is a descendant of the great Brian Boru. These sorts of things are also a great way to advertise genetic genealogy.

lgmayka
01-25-2015, 09:17 PM
Maybe I should ask in this thread instead:

Should an L226+ man order the Z253 SNP panel for $84, or wait for a more specific L226 panel? Assume that sending a new sample to Yseq is not an option.

SearchSeeker
01-26-2015, 03:19 PM
Maybe I should ask in this thread instead:

Should an L226+ man order the Z253 SNP panel for $84, or wait for a more specific L226 panel? Assume that sending a new sample to Yseq is not an option.

Robert Casey posted above that a new YSEQ L226 panel is in the works, perhaps you might wish to wait for that?

lgmayka
01-26-2015, 03:55 PM
Robert Casey posted above that a new YSEQ L226 panel is in the works, perhaps you might wish to wait for that?
No. For some FTDNA customers, sending a new sample to Yseq is simply not an option.

The question is whether anyone intends to propose an L226 panel to FTDNA?

SearchSeeker
01-27-2015, 12:34 AM
No. For some FTDNA customers, sending a new sample to Yseq is simply not an option.

The question is whether anyone intends to propose an L226 panel to FTDNA?

Oh and thank you for the information.

rms2
01-27-2015, 01:08 AM
According to Mike Walsh over on the Facebook L21 group, where I asked about it, this new Z253 pack is good for L226 guys, as well. Apparently one of the project admins behind the choice of SNPs is an L226+ guy himself, but that's all I know about it.

Wish I could be more specific, but I don't know any more than that.

Dubhthach
01-27-2015, 10:13 AM
Here's the "SNP tree" that shows the SNP's tested as part of the Z253 panel that FTDNA are offering:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/FTDNA_Z253_Pack.png

DC1 is as far as I know the "chiefly line" of the O'Brien family, YFS231286 for example was found in Conor O'Brien (Titular "The O'Brien" -- Baron Inchiquin). See email from Denis here:



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Dennis Wright [email protected] [R1b-L21-Project] <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 3:18 AM
Subject: [R1b-L21-Project] Great day for Irish Type III R-L226 Group
To: [email protected]



Yesterday 19 results from the branching SNP under L226, FGC5628 came in.

33% were -ve and 67% were +ve showing this is a significant branch under L226. We are still waiting for the results of a further 8 x FGC5628 tests.
The results from the second branching SNP, DC1, are still to come in and 20 men have ordered this SNP.

The final piece of good news is that the Big-Y results for Sir Conor O'Brien, Chief of the Clan, have been received, which shows there is a FURTHER branch in the L226 below DC1, a SNP called YFS231286.

A further block has been added to the Z253 Tree
R-L226 Big-Y results:- https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14028750/L226%20BigY%20Analysis.xlsx
Z253 Big-Y results:- https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14028750/Z253%20BigY%20Novel.xlsx

Eleven further R-L226 Big-Y results are expected from orders placed with the Father' Day sale.
How many further branches will Big-Y reveal?

--
Dennis Wright
Donnchadh Mac an tSaoir
Irish Type III R-L226
"We are merely the present-day custodians of our Ancestors genes."


With regards to yseq, Denis had the following email on L21 list:



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Dennis Wright [email protected] [R1b-L21-Project] <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 11:48 AM
Subject: [R1b-L21-Project] New R-L226 SNP Plate test at YSeq.net
To: R1b-L21 Yahoo Groups <[email protected]>



Following the release of a R-M222 plate at both FTDNA and YSeq, Thomas Krahn of Yseq.net has constructed a test plate comprising 18 SNPs to test SNPs below L226. It is called the "R1b-L226 Irish Type III Panel"

To quote from the webpage http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=5069

R1b-L226 Irish Type III Panel

This is a 2 round panel that pinpoints the terminal SNP below L226. This panel is suggested when you have tested L226+ or if you have a clear indication for the Irish Type III cluster from your STR markers.

The first round tests 3 important markers and gives you an answer to which major category you belong.
L226
FGC5628
DC1

Then we'll break into 3 categories:

L226+ and FGC5628-
Testing for markers
FGC12289
FGC12290
FGC12292
FGC12294
FGC12295
FGC12296

FGC5628+ and DC1-
Testing for markers
DC15
DC16
DC19
FGC5639
DC21

DC1+
Testing for markers
YFS231286
DC11
DC12
DC13

As YSeq is an independent laboratory, a new sample will be required for this test. The sample would then be available for further tests, if and when these are developed.

Firstly this test will uncover which major branch that a R-L226 man is in and test several other SNPs found in that branch.
The additional markers tested are those that have been found in R-L226 men that have already tested Big-Y and may indicate further branching.

Thanks must go to Robert Casey for working with Thomas Krahn to make this plate a reality.
Novel SNPs found in R-L226 men:-
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14028750/L226%20BigY%20Analysis.xlsx
--
Dennis Wright
Donnchadh Mac an tSaoir
Irish Type III R-L226
"We are merely the present-day custodians of our Ancestors genes."


The yseq panel is definetly more detailed for a L226+ however if it's not an option for $84 the FTDNA option will at least cover cost for 6 SNP's ($14/snp) which isn't the worst.

-Paul

dkm1987
01-29-2015, 06:02 PM
Quick question, I have just received my FTDNA results for a 67 Y, but the second panel is not reporting yet. Now it seems that the 2nd panel is pretty important for this group but what if anything can be inferred without it.

My predictor results below
Haplogroups and probabilities are as follows:
R1b-S29-Frisian2 =>31% R1b-IrishIII =>27% R1b-Ub =>13% R1b-S28 =>11% R1b-C.Europe =>6% R1b-North/South 1 =>5% R1b =>2% R1a-Norse =>1% R1b-Frisian3 =>1% R1b-S26 =>1% N3a1-Finn =>1%

My limited Y SNP as are follows per 23nME and Ancestry atDNA
Positive for L21
Negative for M222
Negative for M467/S29/U198 which to me rules out R1b-S29 above.

YSEQ DF13 Clade test on order since Jan 6 but still waiting on sample. But if my panel two would hurry up I may be able to change that order to the Z253 or L226 test. Although I am not betting on FTDNA to hurry up. With the markers below and the know negative snps would it be wise to change the YSEQ order? In your opinion?

Actual markers to date

Marker DYS393 DYS390 DYS19** DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II***
Value 13 25 14 11 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 29
PANEL 2 (13-25)
Awaiting Lab Results
PANEL 3 (26-37)
Marker DYS460 Y-GATA-H4 YCAII DYS456 DYS607 DYS576 DYS570 CDY DYS442 DYS438
Value 11 11 19-19 16 14 17 17 36-38 12 12
PANEL 4 (38-47)
Marker DYS531 DYS578 DYF395S1 DYS590 DYS537 DYS641 DYS472 DYF406S1 DYS511
Value 11 9 15-16 8 11 9 8 10 9
PANEL 4 (48-60)
Marker DYS425 DYS413 DYS557 DYS594 DYS436 DYS490 DYS534 DYS450 DYS444 DYS481 DYS520 DYS446
Value 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13
PANEL 4 (61-67)
Marker DYS617 DYS568 DYS487 DYS572 DYS640 DYS492 DYS565
Value 12 11 13 11 12 12 12

SearchSeeker
01-29-2015, 07:39 PM
Edited post to remove, was looking at wrong markers.

rms2
01-30-2015, 05:15 PM
Quick question, I have just received my FTDNA results for a 67 Y, but the second panel is not reporting yet. Now it seems that the 2nd panel is pretty important for this group but what if anything can be inferred without it.

My predictor results below
Haplogroups and probabilities are as follows:
R1b-S29-Frisian2 =>31% R1b-IrishIII =>27% R1b-Ub =>13% R1b-S28 =>11% R1b-C.Europe =>6% R1b-North/South 1 =>5% R1b =>2% R1a-Norse =>1% R1b-Frisian3 =>1% R1b-S26 =>1% N3a1-Finn =>1%

My limited Y SNP as are follows per 23nME and Ancestry atDNA
Positive for L21
Negative for M222
Negative for M467/S29/U198 which to me rules out R1b-S29 above.

YSEQ DF13 Clade test on order since Jan 6 but still waiting on sample. But if my panel two would hurry up I may be able to change that order to the Z253 or L226 test. Although I am not betting on FTDNA to hurry up. With the markers below and the know negative snps would it be wise to change the YSEQ order? In your opinion?

Actual markers to date

Marker DYS393 DYS390 DYS19** DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II***
Value 13 25 14 11 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 29
PANEL 2 (13-25)
Awaiting Lab Results
PANEL 3 (26-37)
Marker DYS460 Y-GATA-H4 YCAII DYS456 DYS607 DYS576 DYS570 CDY DYS442 DYS438
Value 11 11 19-19 16 14 17 17 36-38 12 12
PANEL 4 (38-47)
Marker DYS531 DYS578 DYF395S1 DYS590 DYS537 DYS641 DYS472 DYF406S1 DYS511
Value 11 9 15-16 8 11 9 8 10 9
PANEL 4 (48-60)
Marker DYS425 DYS413 DYS557 DYS594 DYS436 DYS490 DYS534 DYS450 DYS444 DYS481 DYS520 DYS446
Value 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13
PANEL 4 (61-67)
Marker DYS617 DYS568 DYS487 DYS572 DYS640 DYS492 DYS565
Value 12 11 13 11 12 12 12

You need that second panel. Compare what you have to the Irish Type III haplotype about midway down the page here (http://www.irishtype3dna.org/index.php) (in the box under the rubric "The Irish Type III cluster").

Unless you are pretty close to that, it isn't likely you'll be L226+.

dkm1987
02-01-2015, 12:39 AM
You need that second panel. Compare what you have to the Irish Type III haplotype about midway down the page here (http://www.irishtype3dna.org/index.php) (in the box under the rubric "The Irish Type III cluster").

Unless you are pretty close to that, it isn't likely you'll be L226+.Thank you and I had already compared that before I had posted. There are several markers which seem to be in line with L226 but a few off as well so I will wait and see if the L21 test brings up Z253 and then I'll go from there. Hopefully it will be in before the Z253 Panel goes back up in price. Plus wait and see what panel 2 shows. Thanks again.

Scythe
09-01-2015, 08:12 PM
I'm a little late to the party but I just wanted to introduce myself and ask for a couple of pointers. I have done all the genealogy I could muster and all signs point to a Dalcassian origin. I ordered the ySEQ Z253 panel and am awaiting its arrival. I've done the AncestryDNA and have the raw data, but I'm not sure what to look for or if any of the rsid info is translatable to the Irish Type III project.

Any ideas on which direction I should go besides the Z253 panel?

IrishTypeIII
09-02-2015, 01:27 AM
I'm a little late to the party but I just wanted to introduce myself and ask for a couple of pointers. I have done all the genealogy I could muster and all signs point to a Dalcassian origin. I ordered the ySEQ Z253 panel and am awaiting its arrival. I've done the AncestryDNA and have the raw data, but I'm not sure what to look for or if any of the rsid info is translatable to the Irish Type III project.

Any ideas on which direction I should go besides the Z253 panel?

Hi Scythe,

I am not sure what Ancestry.com are presently providing in the way of STR markers, but what you are looking for is DYS459=8,9 and DYS464=13,13,15,17.

To my knowledge, there has been NO rs number assigned to the SNP L226.
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNA_SNP_Index12.html

Testing Z253 Plate at YSeq will definitely test L226 and all branches currently known under this SNP. If you are L226+ then you are Irish Type III.

And of course, if you are L226+ we need to talk further.

Dennis Wright
[email protected]

MacUalraig
09-02-2015, 08:11 AM
Hi Scythe,

I am not sure what Ancestry.com are presently providing in the way of STR markers, but what you are looking for is DYS459=8,9 and DYS464=13,13,15,17.

To my knowledge, there has been NO rs number assigned to the SNP L226.
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNA_SNP_Index12.html

Testing Z253 Plate at YSeq will definitely test L226 and all branches currently known under this SNP. If you are L226+ then you are Irish Type III.

And of course, if you are L226+ we need to talk further.

Dennis Wright
[email protected]

Ancestry don't sell STR tests these days. There are some Y SNPs on the AncestryDNA chip but nothing very useful for your purposes I think partly because the SNPs were picked several years ago. M222 is on there though :-) For elimination purposes the latter appears as

rs20321 24 14902414 A A

if you are derived.

Scythe
09-02-2015, 04:33 PM
I'll keep you in the loop. YSEQ should be sending the kit in a few days and I presume it will take a few weeks to get results back.

Here is an example of the raw data file from Ancestry DNA. Rather worthless for anything other than checking for predisposition of reaction to medication and potential health issues.

rsid chromosome position allele1 allele2
rs4477212 1 82154 T T
rs3131972 1 752721 G G
rs12562034 1 768448 G G
rs11240777 1 798959 G G
rs6681049 1 800007 C C
rs4970383 1 838555 C C
rs4475691 1 846808 C C
rs7537756 1 854250 A A
rs13302982 1 861808 G G
rs1110052 1 873558 T T
rs17160698 1 887162 T T
rs3748597 1 888659 C C
rs13303106 1 891945 G G
rs28415373 1 893981 C C
rs13303010 1 894573 A A
rs6696281 1 903104 C C

Etc Etc Ad Infinitum

Scythe
09-02-2015, 04:45 PM
Ancestry don't sell STR tests these days. There are some Y SNPs on the AncestryDNA chip but nothing very useful for your purposes I think partly because the SNPs were picked several years ago. M222 is on there though :-) For elimination purposes the latter appears as

rs20321 24 14902414 A A

if you are derived.

I'm not sure I follow. Testing negative or positive for M222 would eliminate what exactly?

My data set shows:
rs20321 24 14902414 G G

MJost
09-02-2015, 05:29 PM
It would eliminate you belonging to the largest section of the largest SNP tested DF13 haplogroup. 14902414 G>A M222 G is ancestral
,
MJost

MacUalraig
09-02-2015, 05:46 PM
I'm not sure I follow. Testing negative or positive for M222 would eliminate what exactly?

My data set shows:
rs20321 24 14902414 G G

You are negative ie M222-. Its one of if not the biggest Irish haplogroup so its useful to eliminate it.

Scythe
09-02-2015, 06:11 PM
Alright then. As I understand it an L226 person would test negative for M222, yeah?

"Significantly M222 was found to be negative clearly differentiating this group from NW Irish that has been found to be positive on this marker."
http://www.irishtype3dna.org/index.php

MacUalraig
09-02-2015, 06:18 PM
Alright then. As I understand it an L226 person would test negative for M222, yeah?

"Significantly M222 was found to be negative clearly differentiating this group from NW Irish that has been found to be positive on this marker."
http://www.irishtype3dna.org/index.php

Yes, in very crude terms its a brother group. More associated with northern parts of Ireland but it does reach down to Munster albeit in smallish numbers.

Scythe
09-08-2015, 01:36 PM
While I was waiting on my YSEQ test kit to arrive, I had a thought about my grandmother's maiden name Herron. When I followed that rabbit trail it lead me to Ahearn or Ó hEaráin who was the brother of Brian Boru. Are there any mtDNA tests to prove an Irish Type III lineage or would I have to locate a male relative on the Herron side of my tree to donate a buccal swap for a y-seq test?

Thanks in advance for all the help, folks!

Little bit
09-30-2016, 10:47 PM
Boy, 2012, that seems like such a long time ago now! Much has changed. An L226 snp pack from FTDNA became available, which I bought, and my son is now listed on FTDNA as R-DC40. The steps are: L226>FGC5660>FGC5628>DC40, and these are the raw results:

BY1092-, BY4091-, BY4092-, BY4100-, BY4102+, BY5212-, DC1-, DC10-, DC106-, DC11-, DC115-, DC12-, DC128-, DC135-, DC147-, DC15-, DC153-, DC160-, DC172-, DC175-, DC180-, DC187-, DC189-, DC19-, DC191-, DC197-, DC198-, DC199-, DC201-, DC205-, DC209-, DC214-, DC227-, DC235-, DC24 *, DC246-, DC249-, DC25-, DC251-, DC26-, DC269-, DC275-, DC278-, DC280-, DC284-, DC29-, DC291-, DC292-, DC297-, DC30-, DC302 *, DC31-, DC310-, DC311-, DC313-, DC315-, DC317-, DC318-, DC35-, DC36-, DC38-, DC39-, DC40+, DC41-, DC42-, DC43-, DC44-, DC45-, DC46-, DC47-, DC48-, DC49-, DC50-, DC51-, DC52-, DC53-, DC54-, DC55-, DC62-, DC63-, DC64-, DC65-, DC69-, DC70-, DC8 *, DC80-, DC9-, DC93-, DF13+, FGC12290-, FGC12292-, FGC12295-, FGC12296-, FGC12297-, FGC12298-, FGC12302-, FGC13418-, FGC5618 *, FGC5626+, FGC5627+, FGC5628+, FGC5632+, FGC5638+, FGC5639-, FGC5641+, FGC5642+, FGC5645-, FGC5647-, FGC5650+, FGC5654+, FGC5655+, FGC5656+, FGC5659-, FGC5660+, L226+, Y5610-, YFS231286-, ZZ31_1+, ZZ34_1-, ZZ35_1-

The turn-around on the test results were amazing: purchased 9/8/16, received results 9/28/16. I've had single snp's take 4 1/2 months! :eek:

He shows 18 67-marker matches, none very close. Many show positive for snp's my son is negative for, so red-herrings? Though, still too few snp test...guys, check your Y results and consider deep snp testing so we can all learn more about how these families fit together.

Ancestry stats:
11928

Here is the eldest confirm ancestor, 3rd great grandfather of tester:
http://person.ancestry.com/tree/52321331/person/13336100987/facts

TigerMW
09-30-2016, 10:56 PM
Boy, 2012, that seems like such a long time ago now! Much has changed. An L226 snp pack from FTDNA became available, which I bought, and my son is now listed on FTDNA as R-DC40. The steps are: L226>FGC5660>FGC5628>DC40, and these are the raw results:

BY1092-, BY4091-, BY4092-, BY4100-, BY4102+, BY5212-, DC1-, DC10-, DC106-, DC11-, DC115-, DC12-, DC128-, DC135-, DC147-, DC15-, DC153-, DC160-, DC172-, DC175-, DC180-, DC187-, DC189-, DC19-, DC191-, DC197-, DC198-, DC199-, DC201-, DC205-, DC209-, DC214-, DC227-, DC235-, DC24 *, DC246-, DC249-, DC25-, DC251-, DC26-, DC269-, DC275-, DC278-, DC280-, DC284-, DC29-, DC291-, DC292-, DC297-, DC30-, DC302 *, DC31-, DC310-, DC311-, DC313-, DC315-, DC317-, DC318-, DC35-, DC36-, DC38-, DC39-, DC40+, DC41-, DC42-, DC43-, DC44-, DC45-, DC46-, DC47-, DC48-, DC49-, DC50-, DC51-, DC52-, DC53-, DC54-, DC55-, DC62-, DC63-, DC64-, DC65-, DC69-, DC70-, DC8 *, DC80-, DC9-, DC93-, DF13+, FGC12290-, FGC12292-, FGC12295-, FGC12296-, FGC12297-, FGC12298-, FGC12302-, FGC13418-, FGC5618 *, FGC5626+, FGC5627+, FGC5628+, FGC5632+, FGC5638+, FGC5639-, FGC5641+, FGC5642+, FGC5645-, FGC5647-, FGC5650+, FGC5654+, FGC5655+, FGC5656+, FGC5659-, FGC5660+, L226+, Y5610-, YFS231286-, ZZ31_1+, ZZ34_1-, ZZ35_1-

The turn-around on the test results were amazing: purchased 9/8/16, received results 9/28/16. I've had single snp's take 4 1/2 months! :eek:

He shows 18 67-marker matches, none very close. Many show positive for snp's my son is negative for, so red-herrings? Though, still too few snp test...guys, check your Y results and consider deep snp testing so we can all learn more about how these families fit together.

Ancestry stats:
11928

Here is the eldest confirm ancestor, 3rd great grandfather of tester:
http://person.ancestry.com/tree/52321331/person/13336100987/facts

I talked to the principal FTDNA today. He set some kind of dictate about the maximum time from the date the order was received to the time the lab started execution of that particular test batch. At least on tests like SNP Packs and Big Y we should see decent turnaround times.

The L226 SNP Pack credit should go to Dennis Wright and whoever supports him. He pushed hard for a robust test. I helped a little but all I did was encourage FTDNA to get more youthful SNPs and then talked them into the idea (which is true) that L226 is a very big testing group.