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Bes
08-03-2016, 08:59 AM
So I have heard many theories on E-V13 ranging from its arrival in europe being a recent event to ones hinting at a much more ancient presence in Europe in Balkans in particular. What do most people agree on? My opinion is it has been in Balkans since late Mesolithic however they quickly changed to Neolithic way with its arrival from the Near East.

jof2311
08-03-2016, 03:31 PM
do you think it aws born in the Balkans?

Bes
08-03-2016, 06:08 PM
do you think it aws born in the Balkans?

I'd say so. However it's ancestor definetly was either Levant or North East Africa.

Bane
08-04-2016, 08:23 AM
My opinion is it has been in Balkans since late Mesolithic however they quickly changed to Neolithic way with its arrival from the Near East.
Could you explain why you think like that?



However it's ancestor definetly was either Levant or North East Africa.
The same thing here - why are you so sure? :)

Agamemnon
08-04-2016, 09:05 AM
While Mesolithic and Paleolithic data from the Balkans (Greece in particular) is sorely needed to elucidate the origins of E-V13, I somehow doubt this lineage already was in Europe during the Mesolithic (let alone during the Paleolithic).

Bes
08-04-2016, 09:48 AM
Could you explain why you think like that?



The same thing here - why are you so sure? :)

I'm not sure but it's the theory I like and choose to believe.

Bane
08-09-2016, 04:38 PM
It is well known that haplogroups such are R1b, R1a and even I to a certain extent were subjects of different studies with aim to better understand relation between their phylogenetic structure and geographic distribution in Europe.
With this post I'm making a public appeal for similar research of E-Z1919 haplogroup (which is ancestor to E-V13). I believe that such a study will not just contribute to better understanding of E-V13, but because of "complex presence" of this haplogroup in Europe I believe it would have a significant influence to understanding of prehistory in Europe in general.

Maybe this kind of appeal is naive, maybe someone would say it is a bit selfish, but anyway, I'm sure if would have such paper available it would be valuable for everyone who has interest in the population genetics. So, if there are members of the forum which know some of the professionals who are in a position to work on and publish what I've just described - tell them about this. :)

Passa
08-09-2016, 04:41 PM
I'd say so. However it's ancestor definetly was either Levant or North East Africa.

L618 has been found only in Europe so far.

Kurumim
03-17-2017, 12:35 AM
I'm E-V13

kingjohn
03-17-2017, 10:11 PM
I'm E-V13

ok
e-v13 in moldova :
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0053731
adam

rafc
05-03-2017, 07:33 PM
Tomorrow we'll launch a new V13-SNP pack at FTDNA. For the occasion I wrote an overview of the current knowledge of V13, plus some speculative theories on my part:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3toPDBv-MLKc04zdEd6MDJlaTQ/view?usp=sharing

lgmayka
06-08-2017, 10:00 PM
#324393 (of German patrilineage) was originally classified as E-CTS5856* by the old E-V68 SNP Pack. His results from the new E-V13 SNP Pack are not officially complete, but an authoritative post in another forum says (http://community.haplozone.net/index.php?topic=4316.msg41012#msg41012) that he is actually E-V13*. (His original CTS5856+ result has been replaced by CTS5856- .)

Unfortunately, the RAMBigY2017 coupon is no longer valid, even if someone were willing to split the cost of a Big Y test for him.

Kuzmosi
08-31-2017, 09:53 AM
Hi everybody!

Dear rafc!

I read your "Argonauts of the West Balkans?", and it was very impressive. Congratulations.

If you allow me to complement my own results from YSEQ. My sample was positive Z17107, but negative all of its daughters (includes Z38456)

You read, all of Z17107 sample positiv Z38456 too, except a russian sample. So here is another negative sample from northeast Hungary, Szabolcs county.

My family name is Küzmös. I knew that is a cuman name, but the cumans arrived in Europe just the XI century AD, from the deep steppes in East Asia. But the genetic investigation said: my paternal ancestors lived in the West Balkan, thousend of years before. I have so many unanswered questions....

rafc
09-08-2017, 06:53 AM
Hi everybody!

Dear rafc!

I read your "Argonauts of the West Balkans?", and it was very impressive. Congratulations.

If you allow me to complement my own results from YSEQ. My sample was positive Z17107, but negative all of its daughters (includes Z38456)

You read, all of Z17107 sample positiv Z38456 too, except a russian sample. So here is another negative sample from northeast Hungary, Szabolcs county.

My family name is Küzmös. I knew that is a cuman name, but the cumans arrived in Europe just the XI century AD, from the deep steppes in East Asia. But the genetic investigation said: my paternal ancestors lived in the West Balkan, thousend of years before. I have so many unanswered questions....

Thanks for the compliment and the info! I'm working on a new version at the moment, and I'll include your result.

Kuzmosi
09-10-2017, 08:32 AM
I thank you. I would ask something else. My Genographic Project Geno2.0 test is currently under investigation, and I ordered an Y37 and a Famliy Finder from FtDNA. Does it make sense to order a Whol Genom Test from YSEQ?

rafc
09-11-2017, 06:34 AM
I thank you. I would ask something else. My Genographic Project Geno2.0 test is currently under investigation, and I ordered an Y37 and a Famliy Finder from FtDNA. Does it make sense to order a Whol Genom Test from YSEQ?
Those are quite diverse tests that serve different goals, can you tell me what the goal is of your research? Based on that it'll be easier to answer your question.

Kuzmosi
09-11-2017, 07:07 AM
I'm most interested in where my ancestors came from, when and where they lived.

Scythoslav
03-21-2020, 09:35 PM
Bump. Any new info?

Grossvater
03-26-2020, 07:42 PM
I just found out my great-grandfather's Y-DNA was E-V13. Could someone offer a plausible historical explanation on how this Balkan haplogroup ended up 8 miles NE of Dresden in Eastern Germany? Records exist there for this family going back to the beginning of the 18th century.

Ayetooey
03-26-2020, 07:55 PM
I just found out my great-grandfather's Y-DNA was E-V13. Could someone offer a plausible historical explanation on how this Balkan haplogroup ended up 8 miles NE of Dresden in Eastern Germany? Records exist there for this family going back to the beginning of the 18th century.

There's a known cluster in Southwest Germany, maybe it has further origin from there.

Kelmendasi
03-26-2020, 08:16 PM
I just found out my great-grandfather's Y-DNA was E-V13. Could someone offer a plausible historical explanation on how this Balkan haplogroup ended up 8 miles NE of Dresden in Eastern Germany? Records exist there for this family going back to the beginning of the 18th century.
It's hard to say without knowing what subclade he falls under. There is a sample from the city of Dresden itself who falls under E-Z17264>BY4366. BY4366 itself has a downstream, BY4373, that is found in a sample from Switzerland, likely that this individual is German-speaking. Many of the clades under Z17264 are found in Germanic and even Slavic speaking countries. For example, Z17264>BY4348 downstreams are found in Norway, Germany, England, Ukraine etc. Z17264>BY4280 is the cluster found in Balkan nations, this branch shares a TMRCA of ~3,000ybp with BY4366.

It's also possible that he falls under E-L540 as it is has been found in eastern Germany (Saxony). This branch has yet to found in any meaningful numbers in the Balkans (It has only been found in a single Serb as far as I know). The distribution of the downstreams and the TMRCA suggests an earlier presence among Slavic-speaking peoples, and possibly also Germanic-speaking groups. It was found in a Medieval sample (dated to ~1320) from Hrádek nad Nisou, Czechia, which is located close to the border with eastern Germany and western Poland.

lgmayka
03-26-2020, 08:41 PM
I just found out my great-grandfather's Y-DNA was E-V13. Could someone offer a plausible historical explanation on how this Balkan haplogroup ended up 8 miles NE of Dresden in Eastern Germany?
Here is YFull's E-V13 haplotree (https://yfull.com/tree/E-V13/). Notice that the earliest offshoot, E-BY6550 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-BY6550/), is today found in Germany. (The German sample is my friend's father-in-law.) This doesn't necessarily mean that E-V13 began to expand from (what is now) Germany, only that generalizations like "this Balkan haplogroup" refer, at best, to modern distribution rather than historical origin.

Johane Derite
03-26-2020, 09:12 PM
Here is YFull's E-V13 haplotree (https://yfull.com/tree/E-V13/). Notice that the earliest offshoot, E-BY6550 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-BY6550/), is today found in Germany. (The German sample is my friend's father-in-law.) This doesn't necessarily mean that E-V13 began to expand from (what is now) Germany, only that generalizations like "this Balkan haplogroup" refer, at best, to modern distribution rather than historical origin.

Balkan haplogroup is pretty accurate as central balkans is where the most diverse Ev13 clades have been found so far. Many ev13 clades did spread from the balkans during roman empire.

Hawk
04-25-2020, 10:21 AM
Balkan haplogroup is pretty accurate as central balkans is where the most diverse Ev13 clades have been found so far. Many ev13 clades did spread from the balkans during roman empire.

According to here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

Oldest E-V13 TMRCA are found from Cyclades Greece, Italy, Germany, Montenegro.

So, something happened in Early Bronze Age, but we don't know what exactly.

Hawk
05-02-2020, 07:38 PM
Is it well established among Yugoslav archaeologists that Crvena Stjena Mesolithic from Montenegro/Bosnia border has clear connection to Capsian Culture?

Hawk
05-06-2020, 06:46 PM
This is interesting: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

https://i.imgur.com/hWfZqf1.png

Turkish sample is from Black Sea.

https://i.imgur.com/QoTQvCb.png

Bulgaria and Macedonia

https://i.imgur.com/TepDZcG.png

Greece is from Kilkis Macedonia region, Italy is from Messina, England is not specified.

https://i.imgur.com/48FYMCM.png

Italy is from Vincenza and Salerno, Switzerland is Bern, Russia from Tatarstan.

https://i.imgur.com/K423yPT.png

And, now this, Iraq, Armenia, Saudi. Italy, Spain and Bahrain.

https://i.imgur.com/KItIgth.png

Germany, Scotland/England.

https://i.imgur.com/aCPhXys.png

Greece-Arkadia, Azerbeijan.

https://i.imgur.com/goLtqhA.png

Aspar
05-06-2020, 09:23 PM
This is interesting: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

Bulgaria and Macedonia

https://i.imgur.com/TepDZcG.png


The Macedonian here is me...




Greece is from Kilkis Macedonia region, Italy is from Messina, England is not specified.

https://i.imgur.com/48FYMCM.png


The Greece sample from Kukus or Kilkis in Greek is actually a Bulgarian with paternal origin from Kukus. He is negative for all other subclades downstream of BY3880.
In the Macedonian DNA Project there are two guys from around Tetovo who form a recent branch and are negative for all other subclades of BY3880.
So there are already two BY3880* found in Macedonia among Macedonians and Bulgarians.
Overall E-BY3880 is very diverse among Macedonians and Bulgarians.
Almost every subclade downstream of E-BY3880 has been found.

So far I am not aware of any E-V13* or E-CTS1273* in the Balkans.

E-V13 is actually more diverse in Western Europe than in the Balkans where more branches other than Z1057 can be found unlike the Balkans.

Hawk
05-06-2020, 10:34 PM
Actually, what i see is different.

Oldest subclades form a triangle between Italy, Germany/Poland and Greece/Bulgaria.

digital_noise
05-07-2020, 01:19 AM
The Macedonian here is me...




The Greece sample from Kukus or Kilkis in Greek is actually a Bulgarian with paternal origin from Kukus. He is negative for all other subclades downstream of BY3880.
In the Macedonian DNA Project there are two guys from around Tetovo who form a recent branch and are negative for all other subclades of BY3880.
So there are already two BY3880* found in Macedonia among Macedonians and Bulgarians.
Overall E-BY3880 is very diverse among Macedonians and Bulgarians.
Almost every subclade downstream of E-BY3880 has been found.

So far I am not aware of any E-V13* or E-CTS1273* in the Balkans.

E-V13 is actually more diverse in Western Europe than in the Balkans where more branches other than Z1057 can be found unlike the Balkans.

Is there any E-PH1246's in teh Macedonian DNA Project? The results are not viewable.

I am the Italian E-BY14160 at Yfull, BTW

Hawk
05-07-2020, 09:51 AM
It would be nice to visualize the subclades into an European map, country per country.

I am checking some ready-made-tools, if not i can use D3.js to visualize all subclades per countries.

Aspar
05-07-2020, 10:09 AM
Is there any E-PH1246's in teh Macedonian DNA Project? The results are not viewable.

I am the Italian E-BY14160 at Yfull, BTW

We do have one BigY testee positive on that particular branch.

He is also positive for BY14150:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY14150/

However the YFULL tree doesn't show him as he didn't upload his results but on the Block Tree you can see that he also shares two SNP's with the Spanish sample.

Hawk
05-07-2020, 01:29 PM
Maybe this library might be a good start: https://developers.google.com/chart/interactive/docs/gallery/geochart

It would be good to visualize and highlight the E-V13 subclade distribution of Z5017 and Z5018.

Hawk
05-07-2020, 04:13 PM
A visualization based on E-V13 TMRCA, the darker the color the older the TMRCA subclade.

Based on Y-FULL: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

https://i.imgur.com/IdjKJ2P.png

Hawk
05-07-2020, 04:18 PM
I will do one separately for Z5017 and Z5018 aswell. Maybe i will publish the websites in github pages or netlify/zeit for interactivity.

Keqa
05-07-2020, 04:35 PM
We do have one BigY testee positive on that particular branch.

He is also positive for BY14150:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY14150/

However the YFULL tree doesn't show him as he didn't upload his results but on the Block Tree you can see that he also shares two SNP's with the Spanish sample.
Where is he from?

Johane Derite
05-07-2020, 04:41 PM
A visualization based on E-V13 TMRCA, the darker the color the older the TMRCA subclade.

Based on Y-FULL: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

https://i.imgur.com/IdjKJ2P.png

Seems to correlate negatively with Balto-Slavic. Positively correlates with North-Western Euro and Paleo-Balkan distribution

Hawk
05-07-2020, 08:57 PM
This is for Z5017 TMRCA. The darker the color the older the TMRCA.

https://i.imgur.com/rp8ny9p.png

Hawk
05-07-2020, 09:26 PM
And, this is Z5018 subclade TMRCA.

https://i.imgur.com/0kDxpth.png

drobbah
05-08-2020, 12:09 AM
At this moment in time, what was the most likely route that E-V13 ancestor took to leave North Africa? Was it directly from Tunisia into Southern Italy or through the Levant-Anatolia route?

Johane Derite
05-08-2020, 12:19 AM
At this moment in time, what was the most likely route that E-V13 ancestor took to leave North Africa? Was it directly from Tunisia into Southern Italy or through the Levant-Anatolia route?

For now the most probable route is from levant, via the cardium culture, by sea, not through anatolia.

https://i.imgur.com/q0aDXBQ.png

trdbr1234
05-08-2020, 01:39 AM
At this moment in time, what was the most likely route that E-V13 ancestor took to leave North Africa? Was it directly from Tunisia into Southern Italy or through the Levant-Anatolia route?

I read a while ago a paper that predicted through computer models that it may have taken a sea route through Libya. Although not much evidence was given outside of the computer model.

Bane
05-08-2020, 03:02 PM
For now the most probable route is from levant, via the cardium culture, by sea, not through anatolia.


I can't agree with that. I don't have an answer to drobbah's question but I'm aware of arguments which are against a route connected to Levant.
On the other side there are no arguments against routes which would go through Western Mediterranean.

Farroukh
05-08-2020, 03:55 PM
by sea
The Ancient Egyptians knew only river shipping. The Phoenicians began to sail around 1100 BC. E-V13 originated 7kyo and it seems to be a problem to find any evidences about seafaring of neolitic times (sunken ships or rafts can not resist in the environment of sea water for 70 centuries).

Hawk
05-08-2020, 03:59 PM
I can't agree with that. I don't have an answer to drobbah's question but I'm aware of arguments which are against a route connected to Levant.
On the other side there are no arguments against routes which would go through Western Mediterranean.

So, from where exactly Western Mediterranean?

Pribislav
05-08-2020, 04:21 PM
So, from where exactly Western Mediterranean?

My guess is L618 originated in Late Iberomaurusian/Early Capsian culture, and then crossed from modern Tunisia to Sicily, and then to Southern Italy and Balkans. I wrote about this in more detail (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11538-Genetic-origins-of-the-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans&p=269645&viewfull=1#post269645) a few years back.

Hawk
05-08-2020, 04:37 PM
My guess is L618 originated in Late Iberomaurusian/Early Capsian culture, and then crossed from modern Tunisia to Sicily, and then to Southern Italy and Balkans. I wrote about this in more detail (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11538-Genetic-origins-of-the-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans&p=269645&viewfull=1#post269645) a few years back.

Interesting. Is it like established among Yugoslav archaeologists that Mesolithic Crvena Stijena shows similarities with Capsian? Because i have heard newer archeologists refuted Čović conclusions.

Hawk
05-09-2020, 07:51 PM
Cardium pottery culture fits nicely IMO.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/European-middle-neolithic-en.svg/1024px-European-middle-neolithic-en.svg.png

Johane Derite
05-27-2020, 11:47 AM
"Early Neolithic Pioneer Maritime Colonization of Mainland Europe through Cyprus and the Aegean Islands"


https://scontent.fprn1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/100501382_1098597867192965_7076175571843022848_o.j pg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=gTWHdHvqugcAX8mfKet&_nc_ht=scontent.fprn1-1.fna&oh=8f07d26f72ee1965e09851fe64ad7bcc&oe=5EF5A882



LINK: https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1004401&fbclid=IwAR0lB6yPdgAhVLlsgOVpteCnyyUJ4Z082oeb5chYS SENO4xyXcmGIDWzMqs

Riverman
07-19-2020, 12:26 PM
How are the chances that E1b from the Michelsberg culture survived and left an impression on modern populations? To me the finding that Michelsberg might have harboured a lot of E1b came as a surprise.

Scythoslav
07-19-2020, 02:46 PM
How are the chances that E1b from the Michelsberg culture survived and left an impression on modern populations? To me the finding that Michelsberg might have harboured a lot of E1b came as a surprise.

Can you post link/source to this? Thanks

Hawk
07-19-2020, 06:26 PM
How are the chances that E1b from the Michelsberg culture survived and left an impression on modern populations? To me the finding that Michelsberg might have harboured a lot of E1b came as a surprise.

Those 4 E-M78 Michelsberger samples came from South-Western fringes of this culture. Makes me think, they were joiners from Cardial Farmers. Not sure if they are negative for downstream, or low resolution samples, would be interesting if they were E-L168.

https://i.imgur.com/QoyaI9F.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Michelsberg_culture.jpg

Riverman
07-19-2020, 06:50 PM
Can you post link/source to this? Thanks

On the map:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1R_jpaS0H5UqKinPpJc7b3PWqyCI&ll=48.50843646591316%2C7.937716135984312&z=7

It was from the samples of these two recent French papers:
https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/22/eaaz5344
https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/22/eaaz5344

Check table 1:
https://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2020/05/20/1918034117.DCSupplemental


Those 4 E-M78 Michelsberger samples came from South-Western fringes of this culture. Makes me think, they were joiners from Cardial Farmers. Not sure if they are negative for downstream, or low resolution samples, would be interesting if they were E-L168.


The sample directly North of them was E1b too, the one from Bruchsal-Aue and the one from further North, the Pont-sur-Seine too (more exotic though), so it was no single find and my guess is they were even wider spread within the Michelsberg culture and probably present even among other Central European farmer cultures of the Middle Neolithic. However, how much of them survived, if anything at all, and how this relates to a possible presence among Tripolye-Cucuteni, Dalmatia and Central-Southern Balkan is different issue.

I'm sure it was the poor resolution, because the sample from the later Iron Age too got not more. The one from Pont-sure-Seine was E1b1a1a1a1c2c, whichi s more specific = CTS3274, Z16056
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS3274/
But that's another, even if possibly related complex. The haplogroup is African related if the result is reliable.

Hawk
07-19-2020, 08:08 PM
Interesting read........................



Ancient Ancestors of Domestic Cat was Opportunistic

The study reveals that around 6,200 to 4,300 years ago cats survived by hunting wild animals such as rodents and were closely associated with human agriculture The African wildcat (Felis silvestris lybica) is the ancestor of all present-day domestic cats. The sandy-colored animals originated on the African continent.

https://www.heritagedaily.com/2020/07/ancient-ancestors-of-domestic-cat-was-opportunistic/134242




The domestic cat is sometimes considered an additional subspecies, F. s. catus, possibly derived from wildcats in the Middle East or Egypt

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5612713/

Scythoslav
07-19-2020, 10:07 PM
On the map:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1R_jpaS0H5UqKinPpJc7b3PWqyCI&ll=48.50843646591316%2C7.937716135984312&z=7

It was from the samples of these two recent French papers:
https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/22/eaaz5344
https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/22/eaaz5344

Check table 1:
https://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2020/05/20/1918034117.DCSupplemental



The sample directly North of them was E1b too, the one from Bruchsal-Aue and the one from further North, the Pont-sur-Seine too (more exotic though), so it was no single find and my guess is they were even wider spread within the Michelsberg culture and probably present even among other Central European farmer cultures of the Middle Neolithic. However, how much of them survived, if anything at all, and how this relates to a possible presence among Tripolye-Cucuteni, Dalmatia and Central-Southern Balkan is different issue.

I'm sure it was the poor resolution, because the sample from the later Iron Age too got not more. The one from Pont-sure-Seine was E1b1a1a1a1c2c, whichi s more specific = CTS3274, Z16056
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS3274/
But that's another, even if possibly related complex. The haplogroup is African related if the result is reliable.

Thanks. Weird how this is the only neolithic culture that has an abundance of E in it while balkan neolithic cultures are pred G, I2 lol. What if E-M78 and E-V13 had a west to east migration path. The oldest sample so far is in Spain correct?

Riverman
07-19-2020, 11:49 PM
Thanks. Weird how this is the only neolithic culture that has an abundance of E in it while balkan neolithic cultures are pred G, I2 lol. What if E-M78 and E-V13 had a west to east migration path. The oldest sample so far is in Spain correct?

We have Cardial samples from Dalmatia and there is a later sample from Lengyel. This means that either E1b was in different migrations or it spread mainly, but not exclusively, from one Cardial group to others. Its for certain the upstream clades were in the Levante, its highly likely they made it to Anatolia, and for sure they were among early Cardial. The I2a spread is even more amazing, because it was a HG lineage which was largely down and only an minority, and suddenly it became the dominant group in most of Neolithic Europe. I think for some reasons E1b just made it too in Michelsberg. And in the same way the participated in the expansion of steppe R1b later. Fairly small events could change the frequencies drastically on the long run and some E1b clans, those which carried E-V13, where at the right time in the right place to make it bigger than their relatives. Because general E1b was highly likely widespread in the Neolithic, but mostly on a lower level, with a few, probably rather small centres.

Scythoslav
07-20-2020, 12:15 AM
We have Cardial samples from Dalmatia and there is a later sample from Lengyel. This means that either E1b was in different migrations or it spread mainly, but not exclusively, from one Cardial group to others. Its for certain the upstream clades were in the Levante, its highly likely they made it to Anatolia, and for sure they were among early Cardial. The I2a spread is even more amazing, because it was a HG lineage which was largely down and only an minority, and suddenly it became the dominant group in most of Neolithic Europe. I think for some reasons E1b just made it too in Michelsberg. And in the same way the participated in the expansion of steppe R1b later. Fairly small events could change the frequencies drastically on the long run and some E1b clans, those which carried E-V13, where at the right time in the right place to make it bigger than their relatives. Because general E1b was highly likely widespread in the Neolithic, but mostly on a lower level, with a few, probably rather small centres.

Another weird thing is that the Y-DNA frequency of this culture is 45 % E and 55 % I. THERE WERE NO G SAMPLES. How is this even possible in a neolithic site?

Bane
07-20-2020, 06:12 AM
Its for certain the upstream clades were in the Levante, its highly likely they made it to Anatolia, and for sure they were among early Cardial.

I would say it's for certain this was not the case. :)

Riverman
07-20-2020, 08:47 AM
I would say it's for certain this was not the case. :)

Why? There are E1b predecessors in Natufians, in the Anatolians and there is a Cardial Ware individual with the direct upstream clade from Zemunica cave in Dalmatia which is, afaik, the oldest in Europe.

Hawk
07-20-2020, 09:30 AM
Well, i am very curious to know which variant will end up to be the true one:

1. via Egypt > Levant > Anatolia.

2. Directly from North Africa (crossing the Strait of Gibraltar, or Tunisia > Sicily).

Riverman
07-20-2020, 10:03 AM
Its possible Cardial Ware did island hopping with origins or partial origins directly from the Levante and not via Anatolia -> Balkan. I think they were closely associated with LBK in origin, but that's open to debate. If there was a significant North African colonisation, Italy should have been packed with E1b, I don't see that, but who knows what comes up next.

Bane
07-20-2020, 10:17 AM
Why? There are E1b predecessors in Natufians, in the Anatolians and there is a Cardial Ware individual with the direct upstream clade from Zemunica cave in Dalmatia which is, afaik, the oldest in Europe.

We already had this discussion in the other thread.

Riverman
07-20-2020, 11:33 AM
We already had this discussion in the other thread.

Indeed. Like I say so often, only new samples can really decide it. Even though I think the large presence of brother and sister clades (related mtDNA), as well as predecessors, in Anatolia, the Levante and of course in Europe, especially South Eastern Europe itself, speaks for itself. But then again, I can't know for sure and probably there is an unknown group of seafarers which made their impression from the other side.

Hawk
07-21-2020, 08:59 AM
The closest relative to E-V13, E-V22 lives in Egypt, and probably was abundant among Mesolithic/Neolithic and Dynastic Egyptians. It's closely tied to Nile Valley.

Riverman
07-21-2020, 09:57 AM
The closest relative to E-V13, E-V22 lives in Egypt, and probably was abundant among Mesolithic/Neolithic and Dynastic Egyptians. It's closely tied to Nile Valley.

E-V22 is widespread in Arabia, into the Levante, Anatolia and Europe.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V22/

Starting from the Levante, V22 rather looks like the southern and V13 the Northern flank, with some V22 moving with them. Going further back the origin seems to be the Nile Valley, or the Levante/Arabia again for E1b1b as a whole.

Hawk
07-21-2020, 10:32 AM
E-V22 is widespread in Arabia, into the Levante, Anatolia and Europe.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V22/

Starting from the Levante, V22 rather looks like the southern and V13 the Northern flank, with some V22 moving with them. Going further back the origin seems to be the Nile Valley, or the Levante/Arabia again for E1b1b as a whole.

Curious, what is your subclade?

Riverman
07-21-2020, 10:52 AM
Curious, what is your subclade?

E-V13.

Aspar
07-21-2020, 11:54 AM
E-V22 is widespread in Arabia, into the Levante, Anatolia and Europe.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V22/

Starting from the Levante, V22 rather looks like the southern and V13 the Northern flank, with some V22 moving with them. Going further back the origin seems to be the Nile Valley, or the Levante/Arabia again for E1b1b as a whole.

I would just correct you a little bit although I believe you nailed it mostly and are looking into the right direction.
While V22 looks like the southern flank, the northern flank would be L618, not V13. V13 has all the attributes of a haplogroup that has formed in Europe.
So L618 and V22 are brother clades descended directly from Z1919 who in turn descends from M78.
Of course some people might now start to explain how the modern diversity should not be taken as a factor when determining origins however there is nothing wrong with it because even many academic papers used this method.
But even with ancient samples so far L618 is found in Neolithic cultures of Cardial Ware and Lengyel and Sopot cultures in Europe while V22 oldes ancient samples are found in BMAC Gonur_BA dated to 2500-1600 BCE and and in a mummy in a pre-Ptolemaic Egypt which again shows more of Middle Eastern origin of V22.
The oldest L618 is from Cardial Neolithic culture found in Croatia, sample I3948 dated to 6005-5018 calBCE which is pretty much at the beginning of the expansion the Anatolian and Levantine farmers into Europe.
While the only ancient E-V13 samples is from Epicardial Spain dated to around 5000 BCE.

Map of Cardium pottery ware:

https://i.postimg.cc/C51jQyzc/Cardial-map.png (https://postimages.org/)

The only way to properly model I3948 with G25 produce this model:

Target: HRV_Cardial_N:I3948
Distance: 5.5655% / 0.05565528
88.0 TUR_Boncuklu_N
12.0 Levant_PPNB

Otherwise the sample is 100% Anatolian Barcin like and the authors of the paper with the Barcin Anatolian farmers modeled them using qpADM as two way mixture of the Anatolian Aceramic farmers(Boncuklu) and a minor Levant Neolithic component. This confirms the validity of my G25 model for I3948. The sample doesn't require any sort of WHG or EHG nor Iberomuarusian.

Of course this still might not be 100% enough for us to say that our pre-V13 ancestor originated in the Levant but still brings much more sense and arguments on the table than some hypothetical pre-Neolithic origin of V13 that supposedly came straight from North Africa.
Then again I will not say 'certainly' that's impossible as some other users here try to debunk the Levantine origin and the coming with the first famers although they didn't bring any arguments on the table.

Riverman
07-21-2020, 12:20 PM
You are of course right, like most of the time. I meant the predecessors of V13, since V13 most likely was already born in Europe. But part of the reason I said so is that the predecessors might be found in North Africa too, but won't prove too much, because like you have proven its the Levantine pathway which brought the ancestral group which carried E-V13. Its the same people which moved from the Southern Levante/Nile Valley in two directions, one to North West Africa, the other to Anatolia and Europe. So far with a lot of data points to connect in a speculative mode for a reasonable model, even without the direct evidence, which will, I'm pretty sure about it, come in rather sooner than later as well. But of course, until its finally there, the debate and speculation can go on.

Hawk
07-21-2020, 12:48 PM
E-L618 being found in Croatian shore among Cardials, and actual mutation of E-V13 being found in latter Cardial in Spain makes me think the actual E-V13 mutation happened somewhere in Northern Italy/Austria/Hungary/Switzerland area hypothetically.

piye
07-21-2020, 01:09 PM
E-V22 is widespread in Arabia, into the Levante, Anatolia and Europe.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V22/

Starting from the Levante, V22 rather looks like the southern and V13 the Northern flank, with some V22 moving with them. Going further back the origin seems to be the Nile Valley, or the Levante/Arabia again for E1b1b as a whole.

E1b1b from the Levant? Where did you get that from?

Where then is E1b1a, E1b1 and E1b2 from? Mesopotamia or Anatolia perhaps??

You guys!!

drobbah
07-21-2020, 01:14 PM
E1b1b from the Levant? Where did you get that from?

Where then is E1b1a, E1b1 and E1b2 from? Mesopotamia or Anatolia perhaps??

You guys!!
E-M215 originated in East Africa, they have no evidence to back their claims of a Levantine or Arabian origin of E-M215

Riverman
07-21-2020, 01:18 PM
E1b1b from the Levant? Where did you get that from?

Where then is E1b1a, E1b1 and E1b2 from? Mesopotamia or Anatolia perhaps??

You guys!!

Look, there are basically these candidate regions for haplogroup DE/E as a whole, in order of probability: Levante/Southern Near East, Nile Valley/Egypt, (Northern) East Africa, North Africa. In my opinion only Levante/Southern Near East and Nile Valley/Egypt are viable and there is even the possibility that they migrated forth and back there. In my opinion the fate of E will be related to Basal Eurasian, which in turn wasn't found yet either. We'll see.
E1b1b can only from the Nile Valley/Egypt or the Levante/Near East in all likelihood. From where else? The spread of E1b is related to the backmigration/expansion of first Ancient North African earlier (Niger-Kordofan) and Basal Eurasian/West Eurasian (Afro-Asiatic) later.

Adamm
07-21-2020, 02:15 PM
E-M215 originated in East Africa, they have no evidence to back their claims of a Levantine or Arabian origin of E-M215

Could you explain why East Africa is the place of origin and not per example the Levant or North Africa?

Aspar
07-21-2020, 02:25 PM
You are of course right, like most of the time. I meant the predecessors of V13, since V13 most likely was already born in Europe. But part of the reason I said so is that the predecessors might be found in North Africa too, but won't prove too much, because like you have proven its the Levantine pathway which brought the ancestral group which carried E-V13. Its the same people which moved from the Southern Levante/Nile Valley in two directions, one to North West Africa, the other to Anatolia and Europe. So far with a lot of data points to connect in a speculative mode for a reasonable model, even without the direct evidence, which will, I'm pretty sure about it, come in rather sooner than later as well. But of course, until its finally there, the debate and speculation can go on.

I completely agree.
I will only say something about your notion the of the fact that the predecessor of V13 can be found in North Africa.
As a member of the E-M35 project I can see there are some L618* close clusters found in the Levant.
There is one Syrian who is L618* and few Saudis who form their own cluster. I should also mention that there is a third cluster that of Saudis, an Algerian and Sardinian if I am not mistaken. For this third cluster I would rather argue that might be of Phoenician origin given how the Phoenicians were present in Magreb and Sardinia as well.
Maybe I can't see the whole picture in this as I am not an administrator of the project but some of the administrators can elaborate more on this matter as I see some of them are present on this forum and regularly are reading the threads regarding E-V13.

piye
07-21-2020, 04:53 PM
Look, there are basically these candidate regions for haplogroup DE/E as a whole, in order of probability: Levante/Southern Near East, Nile Valley/Egypt, (Northern) East Africa, North Africa. In my opinion only Levante/Southern Near East and Nile Valley/Egypt are viable and there is even the possibility that they migrated forth and back there. In my opinion the fate of E will be related to Basal Eurasian, which in turn wasn't found yet either. We'll see.
E1b1b can only from the Nile Valley/Egypt or the Levante/Near East in all likelihood. From where else? The spread of E1b is related to the backmigration/expansion of first Ancient North African earlier (Niger-Kordofan) and Basal Eurasian/West Eurasian (Afro-Asiatic) later.

Lolz...OK

They actually came from Iran

Some of you dont really know how you sound.

Go and read the phylogeny of Haplogroup E (all its various clades) . If you still believe what you wrote up there, i honestly cannot help

piye
07-21-2020, 05:05 PM
Look, there are basically these candidate regions for haplogroup DE/E as a whole, in order of probability: Levante/Southern Near East, Nile Valley/Egypt, (Northern) East Africa, North Africa. In my opinion only Levante/Southern Near East and Nile Valley/Egypt are viable and there is even the possibility that they migrated forth and back there. In my opinion the fate of E will be related to Basal Eurasian, which in turn wasn't found yet either. We'll see.
E1b1b can only from the Nile Valley/Egypt or the Levante/Near East in all likelihood. From where else? The spread of E1b is related to the backmigration/expansion of first Ancient North African earlier (Niger-Kordofan) and Basal Eurasian/West Eurasian (Afro-Asiatic) later.

By the way, i like how you differentiated two brother clades(E1b1a and E1b1b) into "Niger kordofian" and " Basal/West Eurasians"!!!

That was all you again.

Weldone

Hawk
07-21-2020, 05:18 PM
By the way, i like how you differentiated two brother clades(E1b1a and E1b1b) into "Niger kordofian" and " Basal/West Eurasians"!!!

That was all you again.

Weldone

E1b1a is clearly an intruder further into Sub-Sahara, males carrying that lineage probably were heavy ANA-like mixing with Western/Central African hunter gatherers.

Riverman
07-21-2020, 05:40 PM
By the way, i like how you differentiated two brother clades(E1b1a and E1b1b) into "Niger kordofian" and " Basal/West Eurasians"!!!

That was all you again.

Weldone

I have little doubts after the recent papers on ancient African DNA, especially Shum Laka, that E came to Subsaharan Africa fairly late with the Ancient North African component and its just most likely that these people introduced Niger-Kordofanian languages. Otherwise they would have adopted it from the local minorities they largely assimilated and of which primarily the female part survived if looking at the modern frequencies. For that scenario it doesn't even matter where they were coming from 60.000 years ago, but they were in the Green Sahara and North of it, West of the Nile, whereas E1b1b was originally in the Nile valley or East of it, possibly even in the Levante/Southern Near East and coming in later, when fully developed Basal Eurasians had mixed with West Eurasian proper, this introduced Afro-Asiatic languages to the North and East of Africa. Iberomaurusians being an early expansive wave from them, probably starting to push the more ancient inhabitants of North Africa and the Green Sahara South, therefore causing the chain of events which led to the expansion of Niger-Kordofan and its Bantu branch to expand deep into Africa.
You won't find any E, for sure no E1b1b earlier than these events in Subsaharan Africa, because it wasn't there (yet). A lot of people have no idea about population dynamics. The Nile valley, Green Arabia and Sahara, Arabia, these were important centres for a demographic build up, for further development. That's where we have to search and the ancient DNA results obtained so far support this position, even more so the modern clades, even though I wouldn't push that too much, because ancient, basal clades can move.

Scythoslav
07-21-2020, 07:42 PM
I have little doubts after the recent papers on ancient African DNA, especially Shum Laka, that E came to Subsaharan Africa fairly late with the Ancient North African component and its just most likely that these people introduced Niger-Kordofanian languages. Otherwise they would have adopted it from the local minorities they largely assimilated and of which primarily the female part survived if looking at the modern frequencies. For that scenario it doesn't even matter where they were coming from 60.000 years ago, but they were in the Green Sahara and North of it, West of the Nile, whereas E1b1b was originally in the Nile valley or East of it, possibly even in the Levante/Southern Near East and coming in later, when fully developed Basal Eurasians had mixed with West Eurasian proper, this introduced Afro-Asiatic languages to the North and East of Africa. Iberomaurusians being an early expansive wave from them, probably starting to push the more ancient inhabitants of North Africa and the Green Sahara South, therefore causing the chain of events which led to the expansion of Niger-Kordofan and its Bantu branch to expand deep into Africa.
You won't find any E, for sure no E1b1b earlier than these events in Subsaharan Africa, because it wasn't there (yet). A lot of people have no idea about population dynamics. The Nile valley, Green Arabia and Sahara, Arabia, these were important centres for a demographic build up, for further development. That's where we have to search and the ancient DNA results obtained so far support this position, even more so the modern clades, even though I wouldn't push that too much, because ancient, basal clades can move.

100 percent true for the most part most people don't understand this fact. Sub-Saharan African "native" Y-DNA is only A and B. I agree with you on many things, except how you think ancestor of E-V13 came into Europe. I think it came directly from capsian/late iberomaurusians.

Also Im starting to believe E wasn't from Basal Eurasians but from ANA whatever ANA was because it seems its ever more ancient and deeper than basal. I believe this component migrated very early into middle east and back migrated into Maghreb and E spread from there west to east. This is why we find the oldest E in north africa much older than natufians. But these are all theories at the moment lol.

Riverman
07-21-2020, 07:49 PM
100 percent true most people don't understand this fact. I agree with you on many things, except how you think ancestor of E-V13 came into Europe. I think it came directly from capsian/late iberomaurusians.

Which culture do you associate with this migration to Southern Europe and how ended predecessors of E-V13 and related E1b clades in Dalmatia, Pannonia and other places of Eastern and Southern Europe that early, like 6.000 BC? This would mean that the spread from a North African colonisaton had to start before 7.000 BC and expanding against the direction of Cardial-Impressed Ware, which seems to have been proven to move from East -> West.

So timing and material culture would be highly interesting to discuss.

Scythoslav
07-21-2020, 08:01 PM
Which culture do you associate with this migration to Southern Europe and how ended predecessors of E-V13 and related E1b clades in Dalmatia, Pannonia and other places of Eastern and Southern Europe that early, like 6.000 BC? This would mean that the spread from a North African colonisaton had to start before 7.000 BC and expanding against the direction of Cardial-Impressed Ware, which seems to have been proven to move from East -> West.

So timing and material culture would be highly interesting to discuss.

I believe it happened in the mesolithic ~10,000 years ago. These were very small fishing communities that migrated all along the med coast of southern Europe. Stretching from Portugal to Greece and their numbers were few. "Cardialware" culture assimilated E-M78 in Europe(somewhere in the balkans) and brought it with them wherever they went. Also the origin of Cardial ware culture itself is not definite. Some find very similar culture based on archaeology in Tunisia and other places in North Africa. We don't have much information about this culture. As well as how is a culture that is supposedly from Levant mostly Barcin? Do we have any levantine cardial samples?

Aspar
07-23-2020, 08:51 AM
I've noticed that YFULL uploaded many ancient samples on its tree but not any E-L618 or E-V13 samples.
So I wrote to them two days ago and I asked them to upload the samples if possible:

I3948;
scy197;
CL38;
R107;
I12031;

Soon after they replied to me to provide them with a link from the samples in question and if they satisfy their quality conditions then they will upload them.

I think with the latest changes of FTDNA as payment for your BAM file, YFULL's work decreased tremendously so uploading more ancient samples will bring only good for them and will increase the attractiveness of their Y tree so the people will be willing to buy their service. I have also noticed that they started to upload a lot of samples of modern people from different scientific studies which is also a good thing.

Riverman
07-23-2020, 09:34 AM
I've noticed that YFULL uploaded many ancient samples on its tree but not any E-L618 or E-V13 samples.
So I wrote to them two days ago and I asked them to upload the samples if possible:

I3948;
scy197;
CL38;
R107;
I12031;

Soon after they replied to me to provide them with a link from the samples in question and if they satisfy their quality conditions then they will upload them.

I think with the latest changes of FTDNA as payment for your BAM file, YFULL's work decreased tremendously so uploading more ancient samples will bring only good for them and will increase the attractiveness of their Y tree so the people will be willing to buy their service. I have also noticed that they started to upload a lot of samples of modern people from different scientific studies which is also a good thing.

I really hope for more scientific studies with a lot of modern yDNA samples. Every larger sample with a higher resolution brought new insights and unexpected haplotypes. This is even more true for E-V13 which has such a complicated history and distribution.

Aspar
07-23-2020, 10:07 AM
I really hope for more scientific studies with a lot of modern yDNA samples. Every larger sample with a higher resolution brought new insights and unexpected haplotypes. This is even more true for E-V13 which has such a complicated history and distribution.

Exactly, more the better.
And with the new obstacles by FTDNA but also the price for a NGS or WGS test which is still very expensive I believe uploading samples from studies is the right approach.

Hawk
08-18-2020, 09:38 AM
''The tongue spoken by the first Criș farmers in the East Carpathian foothills about 5800-5600 BCE was removed from the parent tongue spoken by the first settlers in Thessaly by less than a thousand years-the same interval that separates Modern American English from Anglo-Saxon. That was long enough for several new Old European Neolithic languages to have emerged from the Thessalian parent, but they would have belonged to a single language family. That language family was not Indo-European. It came from the wrong place (Anatolia and Greece) at the wrong time (before 6500 BCE). Curiously a fragment of that lost language might be preserved in the Proto-Indo-European term for bull, ·tawro-s, which many linguists think was borrowed from an Afro-Asiatic term. The Afro-Asiatic super-family generated both Egyptian and Semitic in the Near East, and one of its early languages might have been spoken in Anatolia by the earliest farmers. Perhaps the Criș people spoke a language of Afro-Asiatic type, and as they drove their cattle into the East Carpathian valleys they called them something like 'tawr-.16''

Source: The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World, p. 147



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star%C4%8Devo%E2%80%93K%C3%B6r%C3%B6s%E2%80%93Cri% C8%99_culture

Kanenas
08-18-2020, 11:27 AM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star%C4%8Devo%E2%80%93K%C3%B6r%C3%B6s%E2%80%93Cri% C8%99_culture

The 'EEFs' were not speaking Afro-asiatic, imo.

The other possibilities: speaking a language related to Hurrian but Hurrian and pre-PIE can be related, see "Arnaud Fournet & Allan R. Bomhard - The Indo-European Elements in Hurrian". The Hurrians were likely on the Anatolian Neolithic - Iran Neolithic cline.
So, it is theoretically possible that both languages were Anatolian HG related.

Also: Speaking a language related to Hattic. That is something that I don't believe at all. Most interesting for me is the idea for a relatioship of Hattic with Yeniseian (Kets, Kotts). There can be early expansions of 'ANE'-rich hunter-fisher populations towards Anatolia. (if CHG = Anatolia HG + ANE).

That being said there can be influence from a language with typological similarities to Afro-Asiatic. The late PIE innovation of the feminine gender, for example may be the result of language contact with a language that had a feminine gender?

Johnny ola
08-18-2020, 12:04 PM
The 'EEFs' were not speaking Afro-asiatic, imo.

The other possibilities: speaking a language related to Hurrian but Hurrian and pre-PIE can be related, see "Arnaud Fournet & Allan R. Bomhard - The Indo-European Elements in Hurrian". The Hurrians were likely on the Anatolian Neolithic - Iran Neolithic cline.
So, it is theoretically possible that both languages were Anatolian HG related.

Also: Speaking a language related to Hattic. That is something that I don't believe at all. Most interesting for me is the idea for a relatioship of Hattic with Yeniseian (Kets, Kotts). There can be early expansions of 'ANE'-rich hunter-fisher populations towards Anatolia. (if CHG = Anatolia HG + ANE).

That being said there can be influence from a language with typological similarities to Afro-Asiatic. The late PIE innovation of the feminine gender, for example may be the result of language contact with a language that had a feminine gender?


EEF are way before hattic-hittite lol.The Hattian-Kaskian-Hurrian languanges are definitely closer to modern North Caucasian dialects.They have nothing to do with Anatolians.The closer languanges to Anatolian HG/Barcin are the Tyrsenian languages and the PRE-Greek languanges before the IE arrival of Myceneans(Pelasgian,Leleges,Miryan etc).

RCO
08-18-2020, 02:42 PM
the Proto-Indo-European term for bull, ·tawro-s in Portuguese we have boi, touro, taurino, important words.

Hawk
08-18-2020, 03:53 PM
Potentially, E-V13 Z5018 can be related to this movement.


DEATH AND BURIAL BETWEEN THE AEGEAN AND THE BALKANS
CULTURAL VARIABILITY AND SOCIAL ORGANIZATION IN THE EARLY IRON AGE

Towards the beginning of the early Iron Age several transformations in the material culture of Greece are striking. Particularly the appearance of cremation and individual inhumation burials was long held as the main argument for numerous historical reconstruction of early Greek history, however, this phase has only rarely been viewed from a cultural anthropological angle.

Prothesis on an Attic krater, Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York (photo: S. Gimatzidis)
Prothesis on an Attic krater, Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York (photo: OeAW-OeAI/S. Gimatzidis)
Some changes in Greek culture dating to the 12th and 11th centuries BCE have been traditionally perceived as evidence for an invasion of people from the north to Greece. These transformations are particularly perceptible in the burial rites of southern Greece, e.g. the change from multiple burials in champer tombs to single inhumations in cist tombs and shortly afterwards the widespread practice of cremation. This change was often identified as the legendary >Dorian invasion< mentioned by some historiographers of the classical period. These tales developed into historical facts and formed the departure point for many reconstructions of the past in Greece and the Balkans.

THE GEOGRAPHICAL FOCUS

The aim of this project is not to search for Dorians in the Greek and Balkan prehistory but instead to reanalyze the archaeological data that fully addresses the already mentioned changes in an up-to-date interpretation. The area of interest comprises Serbia, Kosovo, FYR of Macedonia, and northern Greece (especially Macedonia and Chalkidike, and Thessaly). In the past scholarly debate and exchange of knowledge was difficult for political reasons but the time has come to overcome national and ideological barriers and begin an international scientific discussion.

THE METHOD

In this project new archaeological data from recent excavations will be analyzed and presented. Recently published finds and contexts from the northern Aegean and the geographical ›hinterland‹, mainly the central Balkan, allow for comparative studies. Modern scientific methods will be used in order to define the biological sex as well as family and other kin relationships of individuals from selected necropoleis. Strontium isotope analyses aid in acquiring information about mobility and exogamy or migration of people (groups). Radiocarbon analyses, statistical, and additional historical analyses of the burial rites, individual finds, and contexts permit the reconstruction of the social organization of the local communities. Lead isotope analyses of the burial gifts made of lead will provide information on the exchange networks and trade relations.

THE AIM
The research is focused on the socio-cultural aspects of every necropolis and its micro-regions that function as case studies. In this way it is the foundation for a new narrative of the interregional interaction in the area of ideology and ritual. Finally, new archaeological data and modern bioarcharchaeological analyses will lead to a modernized reconstruction of the regional social relationships in Greece and the Balkan.

https://www.oeaw.ac.at/en/oeai/research/anthropology-and-necropoleis/death-and-burial-between-aegaean-and-the-balkans/


https://i.imgur.com/Ly21E6Y.png

XXD
08-19-2020, 01:29 PM
EEF are way before hattic-hittite lol.The Hattian-Kaskian-Hurrian languanges are definitely closer to modern North Caucasian dialects.They have nothing to do with Anatolians.The closer languanges to Anatolian HG/Barcin are the Tyrsenian languages and the PRE-Greek languanges before the IE arrival of Myceneans(Pelasgian,Leleges,Miryan etc).

But even before the existence of indoeuropeans, there were migrations into the Balkans from Central Anatolia/Caucasus, which introduced the CHG component into Minoans and later to the Mycenaeans. The language these CHG-affected farmers brought with them was different from that of the preceding EEF, and was likely related to Caucasian languages: http://palaeolexicon.com/assets/PreGreekStudies/The%20Pre-Greek%20substrate%20and%20its%20origins.pdf

This is still theoretical, but I find it convincing.

Kanenas
08-19-2020, 01:49 PM
EEF are way before hattic-hittite lol.The Hattian-Kaskian-Hurrian languanges are definitely closer to modern North Caucasian dialects.They have nothing to do with Anatolians.The closer languanges to Anatolian HG/Barcin are the Tyrsenian languages and the PRE-Greek languanges before the IE arrival of Myceneans(Pelasgian,Leleges,Miryan etc).

EEFs were speaking languages which would belong to a single family or macrofamily. That is what Anthony says and that is correct, but he says that it could have been an Afro-asiatic language, which is unlikely.

North Caucasian languages are not closely related. North-West Caucasian may be Maykop related, at least primarily. North East Caucasian languages (especially Dagestanian) are much more.. exotic.

Hattian is an isolate and also quite exotic compared to other attested languages from the region. Not related to either Hittite or Hurrian or Semetic. But:
"According to Alexey Kassian, there are also possible lexical correspondences between Hattic and Yeniseian languages, as well as Burushaski language; for instance, "tongue" is alef in Hattic and alup in Kott, "moon" is kap in Hattic and qīp in Ket, "mountain" is ziš in Hattic and ćhiṣ in Burushaski (compare also with *čɨʔs - a proto-Yeniseian word for stone)."

So, Hattian may be the result of early ANE related expansions towards Anatolia, and therefore also not connected with EEFs.

Riverman
08-19-2020, 02:40 PM
I see no particular reason why the early farmer languages couldn't have been in some form Afro-Asiatic related. There are arguments in favour of such a scenario, as there are such against, but what exactly does make it so unlikely?

Kanenas
08-19-2020, 02:53 PM
I see no particular reason why the early farmer languages couldn't have been in some form Afro-Asiatic related. There are arguments in favour of such a scenario, as there are such against, but what exactly does make it so unlikely?

I should have said I *think* it is unlikely.

But, either way, the example mentioned by Anthony, can be just a loan 1) either from a third language to both or 2) a loan from IE to Semetic.

(There were myths about Egyptian expeditions to Europe, on the other hand, see for example the story about Sesostris. These may or may not have been based on real events.)

Hawk
08-20-2020, 10:10 AM
The spread of E-V13 from Roman soldiers is such a 2010 hypothesis, no shared ancestor post EIA with Balkanites.

The same was hypothesed about the Visigoth samples, until we found Visigoth sample with E-V13 from Eastern Germany/Poland region.