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TigerMW
04-18-2013, 04:52 PM
The SNP L1335 was found in people that match the Scots Modal and also R1bSTR47. It is my understanding that John McEwan identified and analyzed R1bSTR47. As it turns out another STR signature was also found to have L1335+ and of course additional types could be added as we go.

The off-modal STR signature that seems to line with the Scots Modal/R1bSTR47 folks is DYS391<=10 DYS449>=30 GataH4=12 DYS531>=12 DYS413a<=22 444<=11 YCAIIb=24/22

We know that R1bSTR47 cluster (that is commonly called Scots and is consistent with what is called Colla) is very frequent in Scotland less so in England and is nearly absent in Wales. It also has a 10 fold lower frequency in Ireland (2% vs 21% of R1b). An early analysis suggested that the group present in England (3%) has more diversity in their haplotypes (code for saying they are descended from an earlier ancestor then those in Scotland). The current distribution presented in the graph on the site which is not fully corrected for biases but suggests Argyll is the region of the highest concentration. However, in absolute numbers it is lowland Scotland around Glasgow. What impressed me was the major differences fall along historical borders: Scotland, England, Wales, Ireland. These have been present since at least Roman times so these differences most likely were established at or prior to that date. http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2006-02/1139479547
ScotlandDNA founders have indicated R1bSTR47 may actually be a marker for ancient Picts rather that the Scots that came into Scotland from Ireland.

I don't know but additional good news is that the SNP L1065 is found, so far, to be positive in Scots Modal people and negative in Wales II people so we may have a nice dividing SNP.

It is my understanding that the Wales II Modal was identified by Robert Hughes. The key off-modal STRs are DYS391=10 DYS385a=12 DYS459a=10. Some theorize that it is related to Welsh tribal patriarch Cadwgon ap Elystan Glodrud.
From: JOHN PLUMMER (2010 edit by Susan Rosine)
Subject: [DNA] Welsh: 391=10, 385a=12,459a=10 etc: Cadwgon ap Elystan Glodrudd, born 1016
Date: 20 Oct 2007
There are seven examples on ysearch of a distinctive type of R1b1b2 which can be identified with Welsh tribal patriarch Cadwgon ap Elystan Glodrudd. The DNA has differences showing that two branches are represented, believed to belong to two sons of Cadwgon ap Elystan Glodrudd. The traditional birthdate of Cadwgon is 1016 which seems reasonable as his son Gronwy was living in 1101
....
The Miles/Collins branch of this family shares a value of 24 for DYS 447 and 20 or 21 for DYS 576. It was the Miles data that enabled the identification with Cadwgon ap Elystan Glodrudd to be made. The Miles immigrant was a Welsh Quaker who went from Llanfanhangel Helygen, Radnorshire, Wales to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in 1684. This area in Wales between the Wye and the Severn was the tribal territory of the family of Elystan Glodrudd. Not only that, but the only Miles family in Volume 2 of The Development of Welsh Heraldry by Michael Powell Siddons was seated at Harpton, Old Radnor. There are only about 8 miles between Harpton and Llanfahangel Helygen where the immigrant Samuel Miles attended Quaker Monthly meeting. The Harpton Miles family descended from Hoedlyw, son of Cadwgon ap Elystan Glodrudd. Three of the seven of this family are Prices (one spelled Priest). If one checks the online surname profiler, the greatest concentration of Price is in Radnorshire. Checking Siddons, the Radnorshire Prices descend from Idnerth and Llewelyn, sons of Cadwgon ap Elystan Glodrudd. There is also a doubtful Price line from Hoedlyw. Hopefully still more of this prolific Welsh tribe will join the databases so we can make the identification rock solid and clarify the branchings. I might note that I have an every-generation-descent from Cadwgon ap Elystan Glodrudd, but not in the male line. Probably every-generation-male-line-descents exist, or can be developed.

rms2
04-18-2013, 06:13 PM
I saw that L1065 has made it onto ISOGG's R Tree, so this morning I created a separate category for it in the R-L21 Plus Project underneath L1335.

TigerMW
04-30-2013, 10:56 PM
I saw that L1065 has made it onto ISOGG's R Tree, so this morning I created a separate category for it in the R-L21 Plus Project underneath L1335.

Yes, I wonder if the advent of L1065 isn't slowing progress on L1335. The Scots/R1bSTR47 (1335-Sc) guys need to test the edges of L1065 but I think they are assuming already they are all L1335+. That is probably the correct approach for them.

However, we really don't know the extent of L1335 among DF13* types. Since the GDs are wide between 1335-Sc and 1335-W2 (Wales II) there is plenty of room for other DF13* to come up L1335+.

Mestre
05-12-2013, 02:28 PM
Hmmm, interesting. My results conform to this criteria - DYS391<=10 DYS449>=30 GataH4=12 DYS531>=12 DYS413a<=22 444<=11 YCAIIb=24/22 and L1335+, L1064+. From the, Pritchard, ap.Ritchard clan. Time to buy a kilt!

TigerMW
05-21-2013, 05:52 PM
Has anyone looked at possible alternate signatures for L1335+ people? We don't know how far it extends into DF13* STR signatures yet.

The 1335-W2 L1335* folks include Price/Preston/Miles/Sipe/Collins. The 1335-W2 signature is the Wales II/Cadwgan modal as discovered by Robert Hughes. They have a strong STR signature:
391=10 385=12,14 459=10,10 448<=18 607>=16 576>=19 511>=11 534<=14 (464=15,16,16,17 446<=12)

I've been placing MacDougall with them. f74305 MacDougall Scotland matches the above except he is L21 modal at
464c=17 446=13

He should be tested for L1335 to confirm. This could be a very important evidence point as this correlates nicely with the Welsh Prince Cadwgon "men of the North" story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_Ogledd

f159054 Unknown from Lewis project loses a couple of more off-modal STRs but maintains the following STR signature in with the Wales II folks.
459=10,10 464b=16 511=11 534<=14

511=11 is fairly slow and 459=10,10 is fairly rare. I recommend having f159054 testing for L1335.

Andrew Lancaster
05-24-2013, 08:35 PM
The SNP L1335 was found in people that match the Scots Modal and also R1bSTR47. It is my understand that John McEwan identified and analyzed R1bSTR47. As it turns out another STR signature was also found to have L1335+ and of course additional types could be added as we go.

The off-modal STR signature that seems to line with the Scots Modal/R1bSTR47 folks is DYS391<=10 DYS449>=30 GataH4=12 DYS531>=12 DYS413a<=22 444<=11 YCAIIb=24/22
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2006-02/1139479547
ScotlandDNA founders have indicated R1bSTR47 may actually be a marker for ancient Picts rather that the Scots that came into Scotland from Ireland.

I don't know but additional good news is that the SNP L1065 is found, so far, to be positive in Scots Modal people and negative in Wales II people so we may have a nice dividing SNP.

It is my understanding that the Wales II Modal was identified by Robert Hughes. The key off-modal STRs are DYS391=10 DYS385a=12 DYS459a=10. Some theorize that it is related to Welsh tribal patriarch Cadwgon ap Elystan Glodrud.

Just for those who like to keep record...

When John compared his cluster 47 to two other older terms I understand that the name "Scots" was Ken Nordtvedt's and the term "Colla" was one from Mark and Doug of the Clan Donald project. The other term that had been thrown around maybe even earlier was "Dal Riada". This was coming from a lot of discussions between clan surname projects (including the Clan Donald project) which had noticed quite early how many Argyll clan chiefs shared a haplotype. I believe this may have even been spotted in the days of 12 marker tests. John (and before him Ken) gave some backbone to the cluster identification in the later time with more markers.

Andrew

Luckie
06-29-2013, 09:08 PM
My off-modal signature is DYS391=10 DYS449=30 GataH4=12 DYS531=12 DYS413a=22 DYS444=11 YCAIIb=23. I am currently snp testing L1335 to be certain it is positive.

If L1335 is positive then will proceed to L1065. DYS391=10 DYS385a=11 DYS459a=9.

After that where do I look? I do not know of a common ancestor outside of the US. My Luckey surname is not very common among Scottish names. I have only 23 67 str matches between 4 to 7 steps off. However most appear to be among those of Highland Scots.

Ken

rms2
06-30-2013, 12:58 AM
L743 is downstream of L1065. If you are L1065+, you can give L743 a try.

TigerMW
08-22-2013, 07:05 PM
I'm coming to the conclusion that our current exploratory testing for L1335 and for L1065 are still pretty light and we still don't know the edges,
STR-wise/GD-wise, on these.

I just checked all of the L1065+ confirmed people and about the largest GD to their modal I could find was GD=15 @67. I then reselected for all 1335-Sc
(Scots) variety type people and checked their GD's to the same modal. I get up GD's up to 21.

As far as L1335, 391=10 seems to be about the only thing in common between 1335-Sc and 1335-W2 (Wales II). Perhaps all of the L21 / DF13 391=10 people who haven't found a downstream SNP yet and haven't tested for L1335, should consider it?

Magnus_Eunson
09-17-2013, 11:34 PM
I'm coming to the conclusion that our current exploratory testing for L1335 and for L1065 are still pretty light and we still don't know the edges,
STR-wise/GD-wise, on these.

I just checked all of the L1065+ confirmed people and about the largest GD to their modal I could find was GD=15 @67. I then reselected for all 1335-Sc
(Scots) variety type people and checked their GD's to the same modal. I get up GD's up to 21.

As far as L1335, 391=10 seems to be about the only thing in common between 1335-Sc and 1335-W2 (Wales II). Perhaps all of the L21 / DF13 391=10 people who haven't found a downstream SNP yet and haven't tested for L1335, should consider it?

I'm very interested as to where the fringes of L1335 and L1065 reside, so I would also like to take the time to encourage more testing for these particular snp's. While I do believe that any age estimate would be speculative, I have received from a very credible source that L1065 seems to be in the 2000+/- year old range, which would be slightly older than some of the other estimates others have posted. Now I am having trouble understanding the age difference between the STR's and the SNP L1065? Is there a difference, could the Scots Modal signature be younger than the SNP or am I lost in the sauce? As to the distribution, has the geographic distribution changed at any extent with those that are currently tested positive for L1335/L1065, and with further testing how possible is it that we will even see a change in this geographical distribution.

MJost
01-07-2014, 04:07 PM
I am looking for a L1335 (maybe a 1335-W2 variety) guy to test the new subclade FGC5496. If you are interested please PM me. I will take care of the fee. Thanks

MJost

razyn
01-23-2014, 12:33 PM
Is there some open access address for Mike's current L-21 Descendant Tree that shows the granularity under L1065, with a whole bunch of S-series SNPS (I guess, from recent Chromo2 testing)?

I've only seen it on an almost illegibly small version posted to the R1b-P312 Facebook page. I'm not a member of L21 Yahoo group, but would like to refer someone from the Kincaid family group C-2 to that picture.

TigerMW
01-23-2014, 01:27 PM
Is there some open access address for Mike's current L-21 Descendant Tree that shows the granularity under L1065, with a whole bunch of S-series SNPS (I guess, from recent Chromo2 testing)?

I've only seen it on an almost illegibly small version posted to the R1b-P312 Facebook page. I'm not a member of L21 Yahoo group, but would like to refer someone from the Kincaid family group C-2 to that picture.
The only reason I make people join the yahoo group (for L21) to get access to the data is because of some of the data, i.e. the haplotypes with MDKA info, is not something I want any old internet surfer to have access to. It's all in public projects anyway but at least this makes it a little harder as you have to be approved to join the yahoo group. Please invite any Kincaid L21 types to join.

The tree charts are just general charts, though, so here they are. I've been trying to get ready for the onslaught of new SNPs so I went to a smaller, harder to read format, but with file formats where there are good zoom/pan features. We are going to have to get use to zooming in and out when looking at these trees in the future.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Tree_Chart.pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Tree_Chart.png

Here is the actual table format of the same tree, which is what the formulas in the spreadsheet use to identify haplogroup labels... (I wonder why FTDNA's I/T is taking so long to create a similar, update-able table... oh, well)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Tree_SNP_List.pdf

However, because of the vast number of SNPs, many of which will be equivalents or practically equivalents, I had to pick "lead with" SNPs to show on the charts above. Therefore, it is important to also have a table, which the spreadsheet uses too, that shows what SNPs are equivalent or identical to other SNPs. Here is that table.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Tree_SNP_Equivalents.pdf

TigerMW
01-23-2014, 01:29 PM
I am looking for a L1335 (maybe a 1335-W2 variety) guy to test the new subclade FGC5496. If you are interested please PM me. I will take care of the fee. Thanks

MJost

Is this taken care of yet? If not, there are a lot more L1335 people on the yahoo group for L21.

MJost
01-23-2014, 01:36 PM
Is this taken care of yet? If not, there are a lot more L1335 people on the yahoo group for L21.

Yes a L1335 volunteer has been arranged. Thanks for checking.

MJost

razyn
01-23-2014, 01:43 PM
I've been trying to get ready for the onslaught of new SNPs so I went to a smaller, harder to read format, but with file formats where there are good zoom/pan features. We are going to have to get use to zooming in and out when looking at these trees in the future.

I was looking at a screen grab of it, that Nicole Polk had posted on Facebook, and that has essentially no zoom features (just bigger, square pixels).

Thanks for all these links.

Magnus_Eunson
02-04-2014, 03:43 AM
I have order the S691 through YSEQ. This will determine whether or not my "Northern Scots Modal" is on the MacGregor branch or on a different branch of L1065 entirely. I will be sure to keep you informed Mike on my results. After this result I will be ordering Chromo2 shortly.
Cheers

MJost
02-04-2014, 04:01 AM
I have order the S691 through YSEQ. This will determine whether or not my "Northern Scots Modal" is on the MacGregor branch or on a different branch of L1065 entirely. I will be sure to keep you informed Mike on my results. After this result I will be ordering Chromo2 shortly.
Cheers
There is a "R1b-L21 Results Project" page on YSeq.net to be used for further research under My Groups All L21 and its subclades should join their public data in this group. Please join this and the Public groups.

It can be reached directly from here.

http://shop.yseq.net/group_alleles.php?gid=11
http://shop.yseq.net/group_alleles.php?gid=1

MJost

Magnus_Eunson
03-14-2014, 10:41 PM
There is a "R1b-L21 Results Project" page on YSeq.net to be used for further research under My Groups All L21 and its subclades should join their public data in this group. Please join this and the Public groups.

It can be reached directly from here.

http://shop.yseq.net/group_alleles.php?gid=11
http://shop.yseq.net/group_alleles.php?gid=1

MJost

The Eunson's of Orkney are S691+.........so what does that say about the origins of the Eunson's in Orkney. Maybe not from Orkney.....???
Cheers
Eunson

TigerMW
03-14-2014, 10:56 PM
There is a "R1b-L21 Results Project" page on YSeq.net to be used for further research under My Groups All L21 and its subclades should join their public data in this group. Please join this and the Public groups.

It can be reached directly from here.

http://shop.yseq.net/group_alleles.php?gid=11
http://shop.yseq.net/group_alleles.php?gid=1

MJost

gid=11 is the key one for L21 results. I copy/paste that one to update the L21 database which merges results from several companies together. However, I need to cross-reference with FTDNA kit #s or Ysearch IDs to make the integration work. So please post your YSEQ ID and FTDNA kit # and Chromo 2 spreadsheet ID (if you are on the anonymous 2000 spreadsheet.)

Magnus_Eunson
03-14-2014, 11:50 PM
gid=11 is the key one for L21 results. I copy/paste that one to update the L21 database which merges results from several companies together. However, I need to cross-reference with FTDNA kit #s or Ysearch IDs to make the integration work. So please post your YSEQ ID and FTDNA kit # and Chromo 2 spreadsheet ID (if you are on the anonymous 2000 spreadsheet.)

My kit was 160 for YSEQ, Mr Tagert has my results....I have ordered Chromo 2 this evening.
Cheers
Eunson

Banquo
05-13-2014, 06:29 PM
Just got started with DNA testing several months ago, and would like to supplement my basic knowledge of this with some accompanying ancient history of my "Celtic" background. If any here at this forum have some good book recommendations for ancient (both pre and post-Roman Empire) Celtic history that incorporates some of the newer anthropology and DNA, I would be grateful.

Having lurked as a reader for some weeks, I note there is a rapidly unfolding history of SNPs, and a lot of discussion about whether a particular mutation indicates a clan group or ethnic group or particular geographical location. Would I be off to the mark to say that the consensus behind the R1b-L1065 I possess is that it originated in Scotland sometime in the 5th century or thereabouts, and that being downstream of R1b-L21 and R1b-DF13, presumably came from northern France (Gaul) at an earlier point? Or is there still debate on this matter?

For my part, I have no deep STR matches on Family Tree DNA, though I have a few Stewarts (both Ancient and Scots Modal) and Buchanans at very far genetic distances. Would it be correct to infer that A) my Y-DNA comes from a very narrow slice of the population (hence only distant GD) or B) My genetic solitude will be resolved as more men get tested and my slice of the R1b-L1065 diaspora has their results published? Also, is there a metric to reflect how representative of a sample we who have been tested represent? Thanks in advance.

Dubhthach
05-13-2014, 07:19 PM
Here's a recent tree generated by Alex Williamson, this image shows the L1335+ section men that he has analysed:

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/L1335.png

His full tree is available here:
http://www.littlescottishcluster.com/RL21/NGS/Tree.html

L1335 which is parent of L1065 was originally assumed to be defining marker for Scots cluster. Subsequently it was found that a cluster called "Wales 2" was also L1335+. You can see this on the attached image.

It's probable that L1335 arose in Southern Britain, with L1065 (and equivalents) arising in Northern Britain/Scotland. The fact that the welsh cluster is L1335+ but negative for the SNP's at the L1065 level kinda implies a direction of movement.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Banquo
10-26-2014, 05:24 PM
Does anyone have the age estimates for the various SNPs that are being unearthed? I just tested positive for R1b-S695 and am currently testing for S690. I was wondering what the ages of these are?

WilliamAllan
01-07-2016, 06:50 PM
Great thread, folks. I'm an L1335er, my paternal line coming from Logiealmond/Fowlis Wester in Perthshire. I'm planning to test for some downstream markers and an open to suggestions.

lrodgers
01-08-2016, 09:08 PM
Great thread, folks. I'm an L1335er, my paternal line coming from Logiealmond/Fowlis Wester in Perthshire. I'm planning to test for some downstream markers and an open to suggestions.

Strongly suggest you do either the Yseq Scots L1335 Test Panel ($88) or the FTDNA L1065 SNP Pack ($119). You get lots of SNPs analyzed for the money.
Larry L1065>S744>CTS4931---A5310

Muireagain
09-09-2016, 03:41 PM
Is someone tracking YSEQ L1065+ results?

lrodgers
09-19-2016, 10:45 PM
Is someone tracking YSEQ L1065+ results?

There is an FTDNA L1335 Project that shows a number of subgroups.

larry

Peter MacDonald
09-26-2016, 03:37 PM
Is someone tracking YSEQ L1065+ results?

Muireagain,

I am tracking YSEQ results for S756 and down stream of it (however I am sure it is not a complete list).


Peter

Muireagain
09-29-2016, 06:00 PM
Under S756 I have only two families: MacCoy and the Ferguson(group 3) from Argyll. Would you know of any more?

I am wondering if this is a branch of Cenel Loairn?

Albannach
09-29-2016, 08:39 PM
Is L1335/L1065 still regarded as Pictish? I was reading this website http://www.clanmaclaurin.org/2016/06/history-of-clan-maclaurin-1100-1790.html and it claims that the McLaren's, McRaes, McArthurs, McVickers are decended from Campbell's that married into the O'Duibne family in the 13th century. The Campbell's themselves claim decent from the Strathclyde Britons based at Dumbarton. Since we know that L1335 is also in Wales isn't a Cumbric origin more likely for L1335/L1065 than a Pictish or Dalriadic origin?

Muireagain
09-29-2016, 09:24 PM
My understanding that Clan McLaren claim descent from "Lorn who was the son of Erc", i.e., the founder of Cenel Loairn. They certainly have no recent association with the Campbells of the Isles or the current results for MacArthurs.

They are closer in relative terms to the MacGregor, i.e., sometime before 500 AD, and they in turn claim to be of Clan Alpin and hence Cenel Gabhrain.

It is possible that the descendants of Loarn are S764+ and those of Fergus are S691+. The question is finding enough data to prove the point either way.

We also know that L1335+ L1065- is also in Ireland (including some MacQuillans, a surname associated with Route i.e. home of Dal Riada).

rncambron
09-30-2016, 06:59 PM
My understanding that Clan McLaren claim descent from "Lorn who was the son of Erc", i.e., the founder of Cenel Loairn. They certainly have no recent association with the Campbells of the Isles or the current results for MacArthurs.

They are closer in relative terms to the MacGregor, i.e., sometime before 500 AD, and they in turn claim to be of Clan Alpin and hence Cenel Gabhrain.

It is possible that the descendants of Loarn are S764+ and those of Fergus are S691+. The question is finding enough data to prove the point either way.

We also know that L1335+ L1065- is also in Ireland (including some MacQuillans, a surname associated with Route i.e. home of Dal Riada).

The only proven source of L1335+L1065- is Welsh so how you get to Dal Riada from that is beyond me.

Muireagain
09-30-2016, 07:29 PM
The only proven source of L1335+L1065- is Welsh so how you get to Dal Riada from that is beyond me.

I looked at the L1335 project result page: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-L1335/default.aspx?section=yresults

See - Modal 2.1.2 L1335+, L1065-, Ireland Group DYS481 = 20

I also don't think MacDougall is a Welsh surname.
See - Modal 2.1.1 L1335+, L1065- , Wales Group

rncambron
09-30-2016, 10:05 PM
I looked at the L1335 project result page: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-L1335/default.aspx?section=yresults

See - Modal 2.1.2 L1335+, L1065-, Ireland Group DYS481 = 20

I also don't think MacDougall is a Welsh surname.
See - Modal 2.1.1 L1335+, L1065- , Wales Group

It is a great pity that the Administrator of the FTDNA L1335 Project can't cope with NGS SNP results

Muireagain
10-07-2016, 01:40 PM
Concerning the L1335+ L1065- surnames:

Campbell (kits 90880 & 110594) this it a English name applied to those surnamed in Gaelic Mac Cailein Mor. The Campbell of the Isles are a branch L1065, hence these two kits are not technically Campbells. They may have possible got the surname because they because they lived with Campbells or that their original Gaelic surname was homonym with Mac Cailein Mor. Cailein Mor is in English Collin the Great.

Collins (kit 22505) potentially is from the same Gaelic surname as the Campbells above.

McCullen (kit 166443) is from the Anglicization of two Gaelic surnames Mac Cailein or Mac Cuileann. Clearly Mac Cailein connects with the above two surnames.

McQuillan (kits 169141, 169142, 169143, N17785) is from the Anglicization of Gaelic surnames Mac Cailein, Mac Cuileann or Mac Uidhlin. Clearly Mac Cailein connects with the above surnames.

All 9 kits could have share a common Gaelic surname Mac Cailein, which in turn is a homonym of Mac Uidhlin. The importance of this is YFULL.COM gives L0165 an age of 1579 ybp, i.e., approximately 430 AD. These testees come from Ireland while L1065+ testes are associated with Ireland.

If these testees are from a single family, originally called in Gaelic Mac Uidhlin, then I think we are looking at the Irish Dal Riata.

Peter MacDonald
11-30-2016, 03:58 AM
It is a great pity that the Administrator of the FTDNA L1335 Project can't cope with NGS SNP results

It was recently discovered that Robert Hughes the Administrator of the FTDNA L1335 Project passed away. A new administrator recently stepped up.

Mag Uidhir 6
11-30-2016, 05:23 PM
It was recently discovered that Robert Hughes the Administrator of the FTDNA L1335 Project passed away. A new administrator recently stepped up.

Rest easy Robert, my thoughts and prayers to the Hughes family. The GG community has lost a tremendous contributor and innovator, he will be sorely missed.