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evon
08-03-2016, 01:46 PM
Thought I would start this thread since it seems it is a hot topic...

My guess is that L21+ will be found mostly on the western coast of Norway (Møre og Romsdal, Sogn og Fjordane, Hordaland and Rogaland counties):
http://skolebenken.weebly.com/uploads/2/6/0/0/26004208/7247134_orig.png

Such a distribution of L21+ in western Norway correlates well with what we know about immigration into Norway during the 1000-1700's, and I made a map that shows when the various groups immigrated in notable numbers to Norway:
https://i.imgsafe.org/1f2318f92d.jpg

On this basis my guess is that the majority of L21+ in Norway will be linked to these events. While a minority of L21+ in Norway will be linked to Bronze age migrations, related to the trade in copper ore from western Norway.

My own DF13+ branch seem to form a cluster in Hordaland, and I have traced it to about 1500's, although my paper trail for this linage is not reliable.
https://i.imgsafe.org/1ccdc87f68.png

evon
08-03-2016, 02:05 PM
Other immigration groups I did not include in the map, but which also came from regions where L21+ is found and who settled in western Norway:

- Basque/French?
- Belgian.
- English.
- Icelandic.
- Swiss.
- Italian (north I assume).

kevinduffy
08-03-2016, 02:32 PM
I think slavery during the Viking period would also explain its presence in Norway.

ffoucart
08-03-2016, 02:34 PM
Given that I have a small segment (around 7 cM) on chromosome 8 but with a high number of SNPs with some Norwegians (from the SW) can you be more precise about the French and Belgian migrations you're referring to?

Because I didn't find many of them in Norwegian genealogies (one French pastor in the early XVIIth century), another one in the early XVIIIth century, that's all.

I have autosomal matches with Swedes which can be easily explained by migration from Belgium (Brabanters), but for Norway it's more the other way (Norwegian migrants in Low Countries in the XVIIth and XVIIIth centuries.

About L21, I'm completely agree with you.

ADW_1981
08-03-2016, 03:16 PM
Are there any subclades of L21+ that link Norway to the UK or Ireland within 1200 years? If not, then the connection is likely older.

ADW_1981
08-03-2016, 03:20 PM
I think slavery during the Viking period would also explain its presence in Norway.

I didn't realize L21 slaves proliferated so much. No I2-M26? No I2-M223?

Jessie
08-03-2016, 03:35 PM
I don't buy the slave theory myself. If it was slaves they should have similar subclades that are found in places where the Norwegian Vikings were known to have been such as the Western Isles of Scotland and parts of Ireland. If Norwegian L21 turns out to be subclades like L226 and the lower subclades of M222 than that would show a link but L21 I believe is reasonably abundant in Europe so no need for slaves as a reason for the presence of L21 in places like Norway when places like France and Germany are under sampled.

evon
08-03-2016, 04:00 PM
Given that I have a small segment (around 7 cM) on chromosome 8 but with a high number of SNPs with some Norwegians (from the SW) can you be more precise about the French and Belgian migrations you're referring to?

Because I didn't find many of them in Norwegian genealogies (one French pastor in the early XVIIth century), another one in the early XVIIIth century, that's all.

I have autosomal matches with Swedes which can be easily explained by migration from Belgium (Brabanters), but for Norway it's more the other way (Norwegian migrants in Low Countries in the XVIIth and XVIIIth centuries.

About L21, I'm completely agree with you.

There are a few different migrations, but they are not as substantial as the other groups such as Germans and Scots, so we cannot talk about migration waves. Many with Wallonian ancestry likely migrated via Sweden into Norway also, but the ones I have found are small groups who are listed with ethnic "surnames" such as "Basque" etc.. I have not really looked into the Belgian connection, but 7cM could be very old and so could reflect any number of things..

Yes, Dutch immigration and migration of Norwegians to Holland was very common, so much so that the Danish king started to intervene to slow it down..Dutch culture had a profound impact in Norwegian culture and we have many street names etc that testify to the Dutch presence here...



Are there any subclades of L21+ that link Norway to the UK or Ireland within 1200 years? If not, then the connection is likely older.

We have M222 in Norway, but I have not looked into it much..My own DF13 is of course found in both UK and Norway, but my guess it is too old to function as any form of marker of migration..


I didn't realize L21 slaves proliferated so much. No I2-M26? No I2-M223?

There are as with R1b-M222, Norwegians who are I2-M223..

You can look here: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Norway?iframe=ymap

and here: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/scandinavianydna?iframe=ymap

evon
08-03-2016, 04:07 PM
I think slavery during the Viking period would also explain its presence in Norway.

It is very hard to say, but "Celtic" slaves who came to Norway in the 800-900 period are mentioned in a few sources, so it is always a possibility and they would have all gained their freedom after the end of the Viking age when Norway became Christian (if not sooner of course). The black plague might play a role here though, as Norway experienced a massive depopulation in the 1300's, so any one who survived it would in all likelihood have allot of descendants, as the survivors started to repopulate the country..... But I think later migrations are more likely as we know they happened in huge numbers, while the Viking age migrations remain very mysterious..

rms2
08-04-2016, 12:23 AM
There were Bell Beaker people in SW Norway during the Bronze Age. They could account for some of the L21.

GoldenHind
08-04-2016, 01:29 AM
There were Bell Beaker people in SW Norway during the Bronze Age. They could account for some of the L21.

I seem to remember Jean M saying there are some archaeologists who contend the Beaker settlements in Norway may have been more substantial than generally acknowledged. This could well have brought a variety of P312 subclades to Norway, including L21 of course.

ffoucart
08-04-2016, 06:36 AM
Thx Evon.

My segment (common with my father) is only shared by a handfull of people (5 lines, with 3 from Norway (with 1 line father/son), my line (me/my father), an US lady with an unknown great grandfather. The Norwegians cluster together (longer segment: example: one to one between 2 of them: 16,7 cM with more than 4000 SNPs), and the US lady seems closer to them than me (example: 7,4 cM with more than 2000 SNPs, my father: 7cM with 940 SNPs).
So, even if it's probably an IBD, it's probably too ancient to find a common ancestor.

About R1b L21 in Norway, it would be interesting to test remains from before the Great Plague, because haplogroups frequency could have changed because of heavy mortality.

Tomenable
08-04-2016, 10:02 AM
And all Bell Beaker Folks were Celtic-speakers, according to more recent theories.

So not only the Cimbri of Jutland were Celtic, but there were even Celts in Norway.

Tomenable
08-04-2016, 10:06 AM
According to an older theory, Celts expanded in the Iron Age with Hallstatt and La Tene cultures, while the earlier Bronze Age Beaker Folks had been Non-Indo-European people.

mouse
08-04-2016, 11:29 AM
And all Bell Beaker Folks were Celtic-speakers, according to more recent theories.

So not only the Cimbri of Jutland were Celtic, but there were even Celts in Norway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture
"A Strontium isotope analysis of 86 people from Bell Beaker graves in Bavaria suggests that 18-25% of all graves were occupied by people who came from a considerable distance outside the area. This was true of children as well as adults, indicative of some significant migration wave. Given the similarities with readings from people living on loess soils, the general direction of the local movement according to Price et al., is from the northeast to the southwest.[31]"

Dubhthach
08-04-2016, 03:35 PM
And all Bell Beaker Folks were Celtic-speakers, according to more recent theories.

So not only the Cimbri of Jutland were Celtic, but there were even Celts in Norway.

Bell Beaker is probably too early for the relevant sound changes that define Celtic branch of Indo-European.

evon
08-04-2016, 08:11 PM
Considering if I should do a Big Y test...But I cant find any price info on that test?

JMcB
08-05-2016, 03:06 AM
Considering if I should do a Big Y test...But I cant find any price info on that test?


Right now it's selling for $575.00.

Any male Family Tree DNA customer with a complete Y-STR test may order the Big Y product through their myFTDNA account.

To do so:
Sign in to your myFTDNA account.
Click the blue Upgrade button in the upper-right corner of the page.
Look for the Father’s Line section, and click the blue price button, which will open the shopping cart for you to complete your order.

Jean M
08-05-2016, 11:02 AM
I seem to remember Jean M saying there are some archaeologists who contend the Beaker settlements in Norway may have been more substantial than generally acknowledged.

Not really. The lack of Bell Beaker pottery in Norway hampered identification of some material there as belonging to the Bell Beaker culture. However these were not substantial settlements. Far from it. These are a few finds in remote rock-shelters. I suggest that they may indicate copper prospectors. I wouldn't bet heavily on these people remaining in Norway long-term or having any modern descendants there, though one never knows.

Lene Melheim, Towards a new understanding of Late Neolithic Norway – the role of metal and metalworking (2012) presents some overlooked metal finds. She suggests that metals and metal-working arrived in Norway in the wake of Bell Beaker.
https://www.academia.edu/1285665/Towards_a_new_understanding_of_Late_Neolithic_Norw ay_the_role_of_metal_and_metalworking

GoldenHind
08-05-2016, 07:38 PM
Not really. The lack of Bell Beaker pottery in Norway hampered identification of some material there as belonging to the Bell Beaker culture. However these were not substantial settlements. Far from it. These are a few finds in remote rock-shelters. I suggest that they may indicate copper prospectors. I wouldn't bet heavily on these people remaining in Norway long-term or having any modern descendants there, though one never knows.

Lene Melheim, Towards a new understanding of Late Neolithic Norway – the role of metal and metalworking (2012) presents some overlooked metal finds. She suggests that metals and metal-working arrived in Norway in the wake of Bell Beaker.
https://www.academia.edu/1285665/Towards_a_new_understanding_of_Late_Neolithic_Norw ay_the_role_of_metal_and_metalworking

Perhaps my memory was erroneous. If P312 in Norway is not a descendant of Bell Beakers settlements, one has to come up with an alternate theory why (as suggested by the current data), P312 outnumbers U106 in modern Norway. I find the argument that it is primarily due to events within the historical period, from Viking slaves to later migration, to be untenable. Take the example of P312 subclade L238, which is common in Norway, but scarce to non-existant outside of Scandinavia, including Ireland, Britain, Holland and Germany.

evon
08-05-2016, 09:28 PM
Perhaps my memory was erroneous. If P312 in Norway is not a descendant of Bell Beakers settlements, one has to come up with an alternate theory why (as suggested by the current data), P312 outnumbers U106 in modern Norway. I find the argument that it is primarily due to events within the historical period, from Viking slaves to later migration, to be untenable. Take the example of P312 subclade L238, which is common in Norway, but scarce to non-existant outside of Scandinavia, including Ireland, Britain, Holland and Germany.

The German, Danish, Scottish and Dutch immigration was very substantial and from my own research such immigrants tended to have allot of children who held onto the non-Norwegian surname for generations due to the high status it seems to have held for them. A good example is my Mentz linage on my fathers side, this linage became so large that I am related to the same person several times through several different branches that are intertwined through the centuries..The same is true for several of my other non-Norwegian lines such as Klingenberg, Kramer, Hess, Gray, Maxwell etc..I would suspect that these immigrants represent a large part of the current YDNA genepool in western Norway. This is also reflected in autosomal DNA, with people from western Norway often scoring around 50% "British", which I suspect is really a North German signature and not actually British as FTDNA and 23andme claim etc...

What are the numbers of L238 compared to L21+ in western Norway?

GoldenHind
08-05-2016, 11:43 PM
What are the numbers of L238 compared to L21+ in western Norway?

Unfortunately the only large scientific sampling of YDNA in Norway I am aware of (The Old Norway Project) doesn't seem to have ever published its results. This consisted of 82 samples labeled Norway Coastal (Trondheim, Stavanger, Tingvoll and Sognefjord), 221 labeled Norway Inland (Namdalen, Gulbrandsdalen and Hedemark) and another 72 labeled Norway "not yet assigned". The only results I know of were just published as pie charts. The R1b portions were divided into U106, U152, L21, M222, SRY2827 (which is part of DF27), and the remaining P312* (which would include L238 and the remaining P312 subclades). In the coastal samples, P312* alone was about a third of the R1b portion and considerably larger than the U106 portion. L21 was about an eighth of the R1b portion. In Norway Inland, the total of P312 in the R1b portion was slightly larger than U106. P312* appears to be approximately a quarter of the R1b total, slightly larger than the L21 portion.

I don't have access to the L21 Project data, but I can say that there are over 4750 members of the FTDNA L21 project. Less than 30 of them appear to be from Norway. I do have access to the L238 Project, which has 76 members. Their origins are listed as follows:
Norway 24
Sweden 16
UK and Scotland 5 each
Finland 4
England and the USA only 3 each
Ireland 2
Germany, Poland, Austria and the Faroe Islands 1 each

I can add to this the Genomes of the Netherlands project data, which in a sample of 500 found 16 L21 and zero L238.

While I have no doubt that L21 is a considerably more numerous subclade of P312 than L238, one must keep in mind tha the FTDNA database is overwhelmingly composed of people with ancestry from the British Isles and Ireland, where L21 is dominant. Scandinavia is comparatively extremely under represented.

Some years ago L238 was identified as the distinguishing SNP of what Ken Nordtvedt identified as the "Norse" variety of R1b. He thought it was an early entrant to coastal Norway, and spread from there.

evon
08-06-2016, 05:37 PM
Will have a look at some of the other projects tomorrow and see if I can make a statistic overview..Too tired for that today :P

evon
08-07-2016, 11:47 AM
Some data of Norwegians DNA signatures from several projects, only R1b (some duplication might occur due to people being a member of several project at the same time):

L238 project (total participants 76):
- R1b L238+, Y10824+, A6291&A6292+: 4
- R1b L238+, Y10824+, 8488790&17762748+: 1
- R1b L238+: 11
Total: 15

Norway DNA project (total participants 3610):
- R1b M269+: 90
- R1b M269+ L23+: 1
- R1b M269+ L23+ CTS4528+: 1
- R1b M269+ L23+ Z2103+ Z2106+ Z2109+: 2
- R1b M269+ L23+ Z2109+ BY250+ Y19469+: 2
Totalt L23: 5
- R1b M269+ P312+: 9
- R1b M269+ P312+ DF19+ DF88+: 1
- R1b M269+ P312+ DF19+ Z302+: 1
Totalt DF19: 2
- R1b M269+ P312+ DF27+: 2
- R1b M269+ P312+ DF27+ Z196+: 2
- R1b M269+ P312+ DF27+ Z196+ DF17+ CTS7768+: 2
- R1b M269+ P312+ DF27+ Z196+ DF176+ SRY2627+: 1
- R1b M269+ P312+ DF27+ Z196+ DF176+ SRY2627+ Z207+ CTS4299: 1
- R1b M269+ P312+ DF27+ Z196+ Z274+ S21184+: 1
Total DF27: 9
- R1b M269+ P312+ L21+: 9
- R1b M269+ P312+ L21+ DF13+: 4
- R1b M269+ P312+ L21+ DF13+ DF21+ P314.2+: 1
- R1b M269+ P312+ L21+ DF13+ DF21+ S5456+ BY3300+: 1
- R1b M269+ P312+ L21+ DF13+ DF21+ S971+ S3862+ S956+ S953+ Y9053+: 5
- R1b M269+ P312+ L21+ DF13+ FGC11134+: 1
- R1b M269+ P312+ L21+ DF13+ FGC11134+ CTS4466+: 2
- R1b M269+ P312+ L21+ DF13+ FGC5494+: 2
- R1b M269+ P312+ L21+ DF13+ L1335+: 2
- R1b M269+ P312+ L21+ DF13+ M222+: 2
- R1b M269+ P312+ L21+ DF13+ Z253+: 4
- R1b M269+ P312+ L21+ DF13+ Z255+ L159.2+: 8
Totalt L21: 41
- R1b M269+ P312+ L238+: 14
- R1b M269+ P312+ L238+ Z2247+: 2
- R1b M269+ P312+ L238+ Z2247+ A6292+: 1
- R1b M269+ P312+ L238+ Z2247+ A8150+: 1
Totalt L238: 18
- R1b M269+ P312+ U152+: 3
- R1b M269+ P312+ U152+ L2+: 2
- R1b M269+ P312+ U152+ L2+ Z49+: 2
- R1b M269+ P312+ U152+ Z36+: 1
Totalt U152: 8
- R1b M269+ U106+: 29
- R1b M269+ U106+ Z18+: 21 (moved all Z18 sub clades into this field)
- R1b M269+ U106+ Z381+: 46 (moved all Z381 sub clades into this field)

Scandinavian DNA project (total participants 1945):
- CTS3777: 1
- Z49: 1
- Z2542: 1
- L238: 5 (sub clade merged into this field)
- BY250: 1
- M269: 21
- P311: 6
- U106: 5
- Z18: 1
- Z372: 2
- L257: 2
- DF95: 1
- Z381: 2
- Z307: 1
- U198: 1
- CTS10893 / S3595
- P312: 10
- Z196: 1
- DF17 CTS7768: 1
- M167: 1
- U152: 1
- L2: 1
- Z49: 1
- L21: 5
- DF13: 3
- L159: 3
- CTS1202.1: 1
- A287: 1
- Z18: 1
- BY157: 1
- DF21: 5
- CTS4528: 1
- Z2109: 1

M222 project (total participants 1535)
- M222: 2

p312+ project (total participants 2764):
- P312+: 5
- L238: 18
- DF19: 2
- Z196: 5
- DF27: 1
- L21: 6
- U152: 3

U152 Project (total participants 1748):
-L2: 6

Thats it for today, should help give some overview of some of the most common R1b branches in Norway.

Tomenable
04-09-2018, 06:52 PM
https://i.imgsafe.org/1ccdc87f68.png

Your map disappeared.

Dewsloth
04-09-2018, 07:21 PM
Some data of Norwegians DNA signatures from several projects, only R1b (some duplication might occur due to people being a member of several project at the same time):


- R1b M269+ P312+ DF19+ DF88+: 1
- R1b M269+ P312+ DF19+ Z302+: 1
Totalt DF19: 2


Thats it for today, should help give some overview of some of the most common R1b branches in Norway.

There are now 3 DF19s listing MDKAs in Norway (there are 5 in Sweden, only one in Denmark).
Interestingly, one of the 3 Norwegians is one of only 2 DF88* participants (so one of the oldest lines) to date, and the other DF88* is from Poland. No idea if it means anything, though. ;)

rms2
04-09-2018, 10:57 PM
This article (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/299219631_History_in_prehistory_-_the_later_NeolithicEarly_Metal_Age_Norway) mentions the spread of Kurgan Bell Beaker people from Jutland to Norway.

GoldenHind
04-10-2018, 06:58 PM
Having thought about this, I think a mistake we all may be guilty of is that P312 had to arrive in Norway either 1) with the Bell Beakers, or 2) during more modern times, from the Viking Age to the medieval and modern periods. There are almost a couple of thousand years between these two choices, from the Bronze to the Migration Ages. I don't think we know a great deal about migratory events in Scandinavia during that period.

rms2
04-10-2018, 10:50 PM
So, who would have brought P312 to Norway before Bell Beaker?

GoldenHind
04-10-2018, 11:25 PM
So, who would have brought P312 to Norway before Bell Beaker?

I'm talking about the period between Bell Beaker and the Migration Age. So perhaps P312 may not have got to Norway or Sweden as early as the Beakers, but at a later date from descendants of Jutland or other Beaker settlements.

rms2
04-10-2018, 11:43 PM
I'm talking about the period between Bell Beaker and the Migration Age. So perhaps P312 may not have got to Norway or Sweden as early as the Beakers, but at a later date from descendants of Jutland or other Beaker settlements.

Ah, okay. But there were Kurgan Bell Beaker settlements in Norway, and it seems likely they were some kind of P312.

GoldenHind
04-11-2018, 12:58 AM
Ah, okay. But there were Kurgan Bell Beaker settlements in Norway, and it seems likely they were some kind of P312.

I don't doubt that, but I had in mind Jean M's post #19 above which seemed to downplay the significance of Beakers in Norway.

Webb
04-11-2018, 02:41 PM
A clue might be the Iceland Study done a year or two ago. The results were posted here somewhere and I remember L21 being very high.

ADW_1981
04-11-2018, 02:47 PM
A clue might be the Iceland Study done a year or two ago. The results were posted here somewhere and I remember L21 being very high.

Agreed. Unfortunately the Icelandic data is very difficult to find and the thread was archived a couple years ago. The most numerous R1b groups were L238, L21, and U106. Unfortunately the age of these SNPs pre-date attested language, so deeply rooted SNPs and STR are the best way to find recent connections to any so called 'viking' age.

Webb
04-11-2018, 02:51 PM
Duplicate post!!!

evon
04-11-2018, 03:13 PM
A clue might be the Iceland Study done a year or two ago. The results were posted here somewhere and I remember L21 being very high.

Icelandic peoples are not a good proxy for Norwegians (Icelanders have a large non-Scandinavian component in their genepool by the way), because their history, after the early middle ages, is quite different from ours... As an example, since the middle ages Norway has experienced allot of immigration that Iceland did not, such as the huge influx of Germans, Danes, Scots, Finnish groups and Dutch ect. These groups all contributed to the modern Norwegian genepool.

evon
04-11-2018, 03:57 PM
With regards to my own YDNA, there seems to be a cluster of L21+ (likely all DF13+) around hardangerfjorden. I think this cluster might be due to a local Scottish influence. But it is just a theory at this point...

ADW_1981
04-11-2018, 05:02 PM
With regards to my own YDNA, there seems to be a cluster of L21+ (likely all DF13+) around hardangerfjorden. I think this cluster might be due to a local Scottish influence. But it is just a theory at this point...

Well how far way are your STR matches are the Scots? Second, do any of them have Big Y? There are no doubt many downstream SNPs from DF13 that should be comparable, the technology to determine common ancestry within 1200 years isn't out of grasp.

evon
04-12-2018, 09:39 AM
Well how far way are your STR matches are the Scots? Second, do any of them have Big Y? There are no doubt many downstream SNPs from DF13 that should be comparable, the technology to determine common ancestry within 1200 years isn't out of grasp.

I have not looked into STR matches lately, and I dont think any of these other matches from the same region have done bigY. The reason I think it might be a Scottish influence is because the area received allot of Scottish settlement, but further research is needed... I trace it back to about 1520, when my ancestor cleared the land to his farm and begun paying tax..

Dubhthach
04-13-2018, 08:38 AM
At one of the 'Irish DNA Atlas' talks they mentioned they are co-working on an Icelandic study (as well as getting more samples from Scotland). As mentions Icelanders I think are a very bad proxy for continental Scandinavian populations. I've seen figures pointing to 'Insular Celtic' females making upwards of over 50%+ of founding female population in Iceland, as well as fact that there were numerous 'Insular Celtic' male slaves etc.

I do wonder though given that Iceland was under Norwegian and subsequent Danish rule from middle ages to the 20th century if there was a vector of migration from Iceland to Norway/Denmark during the period. Even if low (but persistant over long period) this might account for route of certain amount of more insular haplogroups ending up in Norway.

My ancestral name 'Dubhthach' was borrowed into Icelandic as Dufþakur, from the name of a slave who led a revolt/escape of a group to Vestmannaeyjar (Westman Islands -- westman = Irish/Gaels)

evon
04-13-2018, 11:37 AM
At one of the 'Irish DNA Atlas' talks they mentioned they are co-working on an Icelandic study (as well as getting more samples from Scotland). As mentions Icelanders I think are a very bad proxy for continental Scandinavian populations. I've seen figures pointing to 'Insular Celtic' females making upwards of over 50%+ of founding female population in Iceland, as well as fact that there were numerous 'Insular Celtic' male slaves etc.

I do wonder though given that Iceland was under Norwegian and subsequent Danish rule from middle ages to the 20th century if there was a vector of migration from Iceland to Norway/Denmark during the period. Even if low (but persistant over long period) this might account for route of certain amount of more insular haplogroups ending up in Norway.

My ancestral name 'Dubhthach' was borrowed into Icelandic as Dufþakur, from the name of a slave who led a revolt/escape of a group to Vestmannaeyjar (Westman Islands -- westman = Irish/Gaels)

I have a few Icelanders and Faroese in my family tree, mostly from the 14-1600's, and I suspect this is something quite common in Norway (although their numbers must have been few compared to other immigrant groups, simply because they were, historically so few in number).

evon
05-31-2018, 04:18 PM
I see one (two) of my closest matches at 67 markers have taken the BigY test:
http://i63.tinypic.com/15rbgbt.jpg

But I cannot find any information on the terminal SNP, any advice?

J1 DYS388=13
05-31-2018, 05:53 PM
Yfull.com equates Y30355 to Y30356, of which Yfull has identified two related cases in Troms, Norway.

evon
05-31-2018, 05:58 PM
Yfull.com equates Y30355 to Y30356, of which Yfull has identified two related cases in Troms, Norway.

Yes that is my match. Is it possible to tell if that is a native Norwegian L21+ branch, or is it derived from a British branch etc?

J1 DYS388=13
05-31-2018, 07:16 PM
Yfull just has those two cases, and they are both Norwegian. So for the moment, it is a Norwegian branch.

Probably they are the same two cases you are seeing as BigY results.

I'm not sure you can see this tree: https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y30336/

swid
05-31-2018, 07:17 PM
One the Big Tree, two of the three men in what Alex calls the R-Y30347 block are Norwegian: http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=2723

The third kit's country of origin isn't listed on the Big Tree, but he appears to be British. While Alex hasn't finished his analysis yet, if you click on the SNP block in the link above and then go to "Show Mutation Matrix", the two Norwegian men share additional SNPs not shared with the British man.

evon
05-31-2018, 08:56 PM
One the Big Tree, two of the three men in what Alex calls the R-Y30347 block are Norwegian: http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=2723

The third kit's country of origin isn't listed on the Big Tree, but he appears to be British. While Alex hasn't finished his analysis yet, if you click on the SNP block in the link above and then go to "Show Mutation Matrix", the two Norwegian men share additional SNPs not shared with the British man.

So they are closely related, but in what way? Do they carry down stream mutations that indicate that the British is from a older part of the branch? Could this indicate that the Norwegian branch is derived from the British (or the other way around?), or is it not possible to tell from this alone?

swid
06-01-2018, 02:52 PM
So they are closely related, but in what way? Do they carry down stream mutations that indicate that the British is from a older part of the branch? Could this indicate that the Norwegian branch is derived from the British (or the other way around?), or is it not possible to tell from this alone?

While we'll have to wait for Alex' analysis to get an TRMCA estimate of the clade that the two Norwegian men have in common below R-Y30347, his existing age estimate of the TRMCA of the initial Norwegian man in his database and the British man are right around 3000 years before present.

As always, we'll need more samples to have a better clue about its ultimate origin, but I think it's a reasonable assumption that this particular Y-line has been in Norway for a long time.

evon
06-01-2018, 03:08 PM
While we'll have to wait for Alex' analysis to get an TRMCA estimate of the clade that the two Norwegian men have in common below R-Y30347, his existing age estimate of the TRMCA of the initial Norwegian man in his database and the British man are right around 3000 years before present.

As always, we'll need more samples to have a better clue about its ultimate origin, but I think it's a reasonable assumption that this particular Y-line has been in Norway for a long time.


Yfull just has those two cases, and they are both Norwegian. So for the moment, it is a Norwegian branch.




It is worth mentioning that these two Norwegians share the same YDNA linage (same YDNA ancestor from the 1850's), so in essence they are one and not two separate lineages. While I am 5 steps away from them at 67 Markers. I also think I will share the same SNP's and I will see if I can test for Y30347 at some point. So there is in reality one British? and one Norwegian R-Y30347..

Webb
06-01-2018, 03:17 PM
Icelandic peoples are not a good proxy for Norwegians (Icelanders have a large non-Scandinavian component in their genepool by the way), because their history, after the early middle ages, is quite different from ours... As an example, since the middle ages Norway has experienced allot of immigration that Iceland did not, such as the huge influx of Germans, Danes, Scots, Finnish groups and Dutch ect. These groups all contributed to the modern Norwegian genepool.

What I meant was that Iceland is not near as messy, genetically as say Norway where there has been a large influx of immigration. And as it happens the preprint of the Iceland study is out, and it is pretty interesting as the study claims there was a genetic shift in the last 1000 years.

evon
06-03-2018, 12:34 PM
What I meant was that Iceland is not near as messy, genetically as say Norway where there has been a large influx of immigration. And as it happens the preprint of the Iceland study is out, and it is pretty interesting as the study claims there was a genetic shift in the last 1000 years.

With the new Iceland study just out it is looking more likely that L21 in Norway came from the west, during or after the Viking age, as none of the Norse samples belong to R1b-L21, while several of the "Celtic" samples do (some are even DF13 like me)..

Webb
06-03-2018, 01:04 PM
With the new Iceland study just out it is looking more likely that L21 in Norway came from the west, during or after the Viking age, as none of the Norse samples belong to R1b-L21, while several of the "Celtic" samples do (some are even DF13 like me)..

Evon, are you DF13* because you haven’t tested further downstream?

evon
06-03-2018, 01:19 PM
Evon, are you DF13* because you haven’t tested further downstream?

Have tested some SNP's downstream from DF13, but not all of them:

A1773-, A2150-, A274-, A4670-, A517-, BY2823-, BY2868-, BY575-, BY653-, CTS10429-, CTS11567-, CTS11994-, CTS1751-, CTS3386-, CTS4466-, CTS4528-, CTS5330-, CTS5689-, CTS6937-, CTS7763-, DF103-, DF110-, DF13+, DF17-, DF19-, DF21-, DF41-, DF49-, DF63-, DF81-, DF83-, DF88-, DF95-, DF99-, F2691-, F2863-, FGC10516-, FGC11134-, FGC13620-, FGC20761-, FGC22501-, FGC396-, FGC5301-, FGC5336-, FGC5344-, FGC5345-, FGC5351-, FGC5354-, FGC5356-, FGC5367-, FGC5373-, FGC5494-, FGC5798-, L130-, L1335-, L144-, L159-, L192-, L193-, L195-, L2-, L21+, L226-, L23+, L238-, L278+, L371-, L389+, L408-, L47-, L48-, L51+, L513-, L584-, L617-, L881-, L96-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M1994-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M335-, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, MC14-, P107-, P25+, P297+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P66-, PF3252-, PF6610-, PF6714-, PF7562-, PF7589-, PF7600-, S1026-, S1051-, S11493-, S11601-, S12025-, S1567-, S16264-, S1688-, S18632-, S18827-, S7721-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-, V88-, Y5058-, Z156-, Z16500-, Z17-, Z17300-, Z18-, Z1862-, Z195-, Z198-, Z209-, Z2103-, Z2109-, Z225-, Z251-, Z253-, Z2542+, Z255-, Z2573-, Z295-, Z296-, Z301-, Z302-, Z326-, Z36-, Z367-, Z381-, Z49-, Z8-, Z8052-, Z8056-, Z9-

My two closest matches are Y30355 (bigY) and Z39589 (both are 5 steps away at 67 markers).

Webb
06-03-2018, 02:03 PM
Have tested some SNP's downstream from DF13, but not all of them:


My two closest matches are Y30355 (bigY) and Z39589 (both are 5 steps away at 67 markers).

I see. I know it’s expensive, but BigY and submitting the raw data to Alex Williamson might get you further down the tree. Does FTDNA offer snp packs for DF13?

evon
06-03-2018, 02:56 PM
I see. I know it’s expensive, but BigY and submitting the raw data to Alex Williamson might get you further down the tree. Does FTDNA offer snp packs for DF13?

I dont know, but I am on a tight budget these days, so doubt I will invest in something like that an time soon..

Webb
06-03-2018, 04:55 PM
I dont know, but I am on a tight budget these days, so doubt I will invest in something like that an time soon..

Even having done the BigY, I’m currently FGC23196* which was formed roughly 1000 B.C. Much further down my branch are two Dutchmen, two Swedes, and a Dane. So my ancestors entry into England still has a very large gap. Celt, Saxon, Viking, with the Norman invasion, Flemish Settlers. Who knows?

evon
06-03-2018, 05:04 PM
Even having done the BigY, I’m currently FGC23196* which was formed roughly 1000 B.C. Much further down my branch are two Dutchmen, two Swedes, and a Dane. So my ancestors entry into England still has a very large gap. Celt, Saxon, Viking, with the Norman invasion, Flemish Settlers. Who knows?

I did also test with LivingDNA, and they place me into the DF13 sub-branch, same as with FTDNA, but I checked their DNA file and I see they have allot of positive SNP's for me, so maybe they also tested one downstream of DF13, but have chosen to keep me as DF13 due to being cautious.. The problem is that their file is arranged alphabetically, so it is very time consuming to scroll through the file looking for SNP's downstream from DF13..

George Chandler
07-22-2018, 01:03 AM
With the new Iceland study just out it is looking more likely that L21 in Norway came from the west, during or after the Viking age, as none of the Norse samples belong to R1b-L21, while several of the "Celtic" samples do (some are even DF13 like me)..

Being that the lave trade was a big money maker and Ireland was a large slave trade hub it's probably a big contributor. There are "some" purported Viking results that can't be explained by the Viking period. It's possible some returned to Angle territory after the first larger contact but prior to the Angle and Saxon invasion a century later. I'm very surprised at the number of purported Viking male line descendants being that the male "war/death culture" didn't promote a good survival success rate. If DF13 lines were old and found in Scandinavia you would think it would have a better showing in some of the projects. It does make you wonder about women taken as slaves who had conceived just prior to the point that they were taken and the child raised as Viking. Another scenario would be a child taken early on and adopted as a family member.


Hopefully Viking remains will turn up something involving L21>DF13>haplogroups from the warriors. It would be interesting to see anything under P312 that would surprise us.

George

evon
07-22-2018, 09:41 AM
Being that the lave trade was a big money maker and Ireland was a large slave trade hub it's probably a big contributor. There are "some" purported Viking results that can't be explained by the Viking period. It's possible some returned to Angle territory after the first larger contact but prior to the Angle and Saxon invasion a century later. I'm very surprised at the number of purported Viking male line descendants being that the male "war/death culture" didn't promote a good survival success rate. If DF13 lines were old and found in Scandinavia you would think it would have a better showing in some of the projects. It does make you wonder about women taken as slaves who had conceived just prior to the point that they were taken and the child raised as Viking. Another scenario would be a child taken early on and adopted as a family member.


Hopefully Viking remains will turn up something involving L21>DF13>haplogroups from the warriors. It would be interesting to see anything under P312 that would surprise us.

George

It need not be via slave trading, as when Norse peoples went on viking raids they often included others ethnic groups too, so there could be Danes, Angles Svea (Swedes), Norse, "Celts" etc.. Who might then settle in what is now modern day Norway.. Also, slaves could and often became free by "working off their debt" to their masters. So over time the descendants from these slaves would become a big part of the Norse genepool.

My working theory is still that my own YDNA line came a little later, around the 1400-1500's (I can trace it back to about 1520), maybe in connection with the timber trade between Scotland-Shetland-Orkney-Norway (during the early days of what is called the Scottish era here in Norway).

Time will tell I guess... I am also waiting to hear back from LivingDNA regarding SNP's downstream of DF13...

JohnHowellsTyrfro
07-22-2018, 05:05 PM
In my own paternal line (U106) I was expecting a migration from Norway to Britain either during the Viking or Norman eras. However the dating currently seems to indicate a migration from Britain to Norway sometime around 1100 - 1300 AD. Just goes to show you can't assume movement just in one direction. A bit ironic, "British" U106 ending up in Scandinavia. There were stonemasons/Church restorers amongst my paternal ancestors and I wonder whether that might explain it.

"“Irish slaves came in the Viking Age. And around the year 1000 another import came that was to have a huge impact on Norwegian culture: Christianity," says the history professor.

The kings brought along specialists in Christianising people. These were priests and monks from Germany and England. Even the Anglo-Saxon bishop and advisor – who canonised Olaf Haraldsson, was a Brit.
Kjeldstadli points out that multiple groups immigrated to Norway in the Middle Ages.

At the bottom of the social ladder were the Irish slaves, or thralls. They might not have had too much of an impact on the culture. Around 1250 the first refugees came from Russia. They had been pressed westward by Mongolian tribes.

But a number of career immigrants − specialists in various professions − probably had the biggest influence. Some followed in the wake of the new religion.

“The men of the church in this context were not just the priests and monks, but also stonemasons and other craftsmen,” says Kjeldstadli.

There was an influx of European noblemen who could be political refugees, as well as specialists like minters, physicians and building inspectors."

http://sciencenordic.com/immigration-viking-era

GoldenHind
07-22-2018, 05:53 PM
With the new Iceland study just out it is looking more likely that L21 in Norway came from the west, during or after the Viking age, as none of the Norse samples belong to R1b-L21, while several of the "Celtic" samples do (some are even DF13 like me)..

Can you provide a link to the new Iceland study? I am familiar with the one that came out in 2015, but haven'y heard anything about a new one.

evon
07-22-2018, 06:05 PM
Can you provide a link to the new Iceland study? I am familiar with the one that came out in 2015, but haven'y heard anything about a new one.

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6392/1028

George Chandler
07-22-2018, 06:39 PM
It need not be via slave trading, as when Norse peoples went on viking raids they often included others ethnic groups too, so there could be Danes, Angles Svea (Swedes), Norse, "Celts" etc.. Who might then settle in what is now modern day Norway.. Also, slaves could and often became free by "working off their debt" to their masters. So over time the descendants from these slaves would become a big part of the Norse genepool.

My working theory is still that my own YDNA line came a little later, around the 1400-1500's (I can trace it back to about 1520), maybe in connection with the timber trade between Scotland-Shetland-Orkney-Norway (during the early days of what is called the Scottish era here in Norway).

Time will tell I guess... I am also waiting to hear back from LivingDNA regarding SNP's downstream of DF13...

No you're absolutely right about that. If you haven't read it already here is an excellent paper about Harold Bluetooth's army:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/who-was-in-harold-bluetooths-army-strontium-isotope-investigation-of-the-cemetery-at-the-viking-age-fortress-at-trelleborg-denmark/EC869F4BE5A4B8C6F5125A1071687549

It mentions that the majority of warriors in Trelleborg were from Norwegian and Slavic countries so no exactly cut and dried.


George

eparcirohter
09-01-2018, 01:04 AM
According to several archeological founds the Roman's had an enormous production of steel in Norway. I cannot post links but Google search for "Roman's in Norway" and/or "NORGES JERNALDER. DE ROMERSKE Provinser I NORGE", it is mostly written in English.

evon
11-14-2018, 07:10 PM
So I contacted LivingDNA, requesting a list of SNP's downstream of DF13 that I tested negative for, but it seems like they must have misunderstood me and have instead come back to me with two SNP's, which I assume I test positive for:


Hello so the team have come back with the following : FGC5512`/rs1049521763` and Z2542`/CTS8221`/`rs138975640`


I checked Z2542/CTS8221 and they seem to be the same as DF13, and I tested positive for Z2542 according to FTDNA:

A1773-, A2150-, A274-, A4670-, A517-, BY2823-, BY2868-, BY575-, BY653-, CTS10429-, CTS11567-, CTS11994-, CTS1751-, CTS3386-, CTS4466-, CTS4528-, CTS5330-, CTS5689-, CTS6937-, CTS7763-, DF103-, DF110-, DF13+, DF17-, DF19-, DF21-, DF41-, DF49-, DF63-, DF81-, DF83-, DF88-, DF95-, DF99-, F2691-, F2863-, FGC10516-, FGC11134-, FGC13620-, FGC20761-, FGC22501-, FGC396-, FGC5301-, FGC5336-, FGC5344-, FGC5345-, FGC5351-, FGC5354-, FGC5356-, FGC5367-, FGC5373-, FGC5494-, FGC5798-, L130-, L1335-, L144-, L159-, L192-, L193-, L195-, L2-, L21+, L226-, L23+, L238-, L278+, L371-, L389+, L408-, L47-, L48-, L51+, L513-, L584-, L617-, L881-, L96-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M1994-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M335-, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, MC14-, P107-, P25+, P297+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P66-, PF3252-, PF6610-, PF6714-, PF7562-, PF7589-, PF7600-, S1026-, S1051-, S11493-, S11601-, S12025-, S1567-, S16264-, S1688-, S18632-, S18827-, S7721-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-, V88-, Y5058-, Z156-, Z16500-, Z17-, Z17300-, Z18-, Z1862-, Z195-, Z198-, Z209-, Z2103-, Z2109-, Z225-, Z251-, Z253-, Z2542+, Z255-, Z2573-, Z295-, Z296-, Z301-, Z302-, Z326-, Z36-, Z367-, Z381-, Z49-, Z8-, Z8052-, Z8056-, Z9-

So if my theory is correct I am also positive for FGC5512, which s not listed in the YDNA file for some reason (sirius chip issue?)... First confirmed FGC5512 in Norway perhaps?

rms2
11-15-2018, 12:00 AM
So I contacted LivingDNA, requesting a list of SNP's downstream of DF13 that I tested negative for, but it seems like they must have misunderstood me and have instead come back to me with two SNP's, which I assume I test positive for:


I checked Z2542/CTS8221 and they seem to be the same as DF13, and I tested positive for Z2542 according to FTDNA:


So if my theory is correct I am also positive for FGC5512, which s not listed in the YDNA file for some reason (sirius chip issue?)... First confirmed FGC5512 in Norway perhaps?

YFull has that downstream of FGC5496 and primarily calls it Y15071.

Go to YFull's R1b Tree here (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/). Hold down the ctrl key and type f. Type or copy and paste FGC5512 in the little find box and click on the down arrow. FGC5512 will appear highlighted.

MJost
11-15-2018, 05:02 AM
So I contacted LivingDNA, requesting a list of SNP's downstream of DF13 that I tested negative for, but it seems like they must have misunderstood me and have instead come back to me with two SNP's, which I assume I test positive for:
[… the following : FGC5512`/rs1049521763` and Z2542`/CTS8221`/`rs138975640` ]
So if my theory is correct I am also positive for FGC5512, which s not listed in the YDNA file for some reason (sirius chip issue?)... First confirmed FGC5512 in Norway perhaps?



Evon, Yes you appear to be FGC5494+ as FGC5512 is just below. R-P312/S116 > Z290 > L21/S145 > DF13 > FGC5494 > FGC5561 > FGC7448 > FGC5496 > FGC5521 & FGC5512 (block of two) before the next split. The Ytree site shows, using Iain McDonald's calculation, the median age of this block is 2241.33 YBP (292 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 925 BC to 244 AD.

I was DF13* forever until I did a Full Genome NGS test and found out new DF13 branch. Look here for the latest NGS results.
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=262&star=false
These block of the FGC5494 branch is relative large now. I am paternally Manx and I have
British Isles 26% and Scandinavia 25% My Watterson ancestors have been on the Isle of Man for as long as anyone can remember. Surname records go back very early to the 1400's. There was heavy Scandinavian settlement of the island. Maternally I am East Europe 46%, so that confirms my paternal makeup.

I have considerable York and east Highlands connections, so there well maybe a direct connection to Norway. Just not sure which way the son's moved first and later on. You may want to consider either FGC5494 subclade SNP test or just test for FGC5494 or do a NGS test when you can.

Welcome to the FGC5494 group!

evon
11-15-2018, 03:18 PM
Evon, Yes you appear to be FGC5494+ as FGC5512 is just below. R-P312/S116 > Z290 > L21/S145 > DF13 > FGC5494 > FGC5561 > FGC7448 > FGC5496 > FGC5521 & FGC5512 (block of two) before the next split. The Ytree site shows, using Iain McDonald's calculation, the median age of this block is 2241.33 YBP (292 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 925 BC to 244 AD.

I was DF13* forever until I did a Full Genome NGS test and found out new DF13 branch. Look here for the latest NGS results.
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=262&star=false
These block of the FGC5494 branch is relative large now. I am paternally Manx and I have
British Isles 26% and Scandinavia 25% My Watterson ancestors have been on the Isle of Man for as long as anyone can remember. Surname records go back very early to the 1400's. There was heavy Scandinavian settlement of the island. Maternally I am East Europe 46%, so that confirms my paternal makeup.

I have considerable York and east Highlands connections, so there well maybe a direct connection to Norway. Just not sure which way the son's moved first and later on. You may want to consider either FGC5494 subclade SNP test or just test for FGC5494 or do a NGS test when you can.

Welcome to the FGC5494 group!

I will test further downstream of FGC5512 when I get money and have the time, but for now I am just happy to have moved 2000 years closer in time with my YDNA research :) I am fairly certain it came to Norway from UK now, but at what time is another matter, but during the Norwegian golden age might be a good fit..

Here is a map of Norway during the golden age (Greenland not included):
http://i66.tinypic.com/k1ruxi.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Norway_(872%E2%80%931397)